Did Data Governance Just Get A Rebrand?

Bren: Hello and welcome back to this is definitely not a data podcast. Today we're getting into everything that happens before anyone gets to touch the exciting AI stuff. We're talking about the governance, the policies and the bits that everyone calls boring. We also talk about why light iterative governance beats a giant framework nobody reads and why the collision conversations we lost after COVID might be the thing we missed most. So let's get into it. Hello and welcome back. We're back again with another episode of This Is Not A Data Podcast. Leno, you're back from holiday, you're looking very relaxed. This is good. But did I see whilst you were away, have you hit the top 100 list? Did I see you, do I see that you're now data famous?

Lenno: Yes. yeah, so so sort of, sort of. Yeah, actually I've I've made the list again. So I was very, very Yeah, it's a return visit in the in the Hot Topics CDO list of twenty twenty six. I was overly surprised to already see my name in the list last year, which of course my family celebrated like crazy.

Bren: All right, this is a return. You

Lenno: and this year to to my surprise again I saw my my name appearing in it in it again. So yeah, thank you very much for recognizing that and directly from from the gate dropping dropping this in without any prior notice.

Bren: So a little secret is I didn't mention that I was going to say this at the beginning. just I've definitely taken you boss back. no credit will credit you to make a list is fantastic. And I hope that the family have been asking for autographs and and sort of making sure that they've rolled out the red carpet and making tea and coffee for you. I hope that continues.

Lenno: My my my family has been extremely great so they they've actually bought banners and a big chocolate medallion and you know, so th they they've pulled pulled all stops, yeah.

Bren: you Brilliant. No, it's great to everybody else that's on the list. Congratulations. So we were talking before about, you know, when we think about how this podcast started, this is not a data podcast. And ironically, we're going to talk about data for a bit. But you asked what I've been up to, and there was a part that we wanted to dive into, which is around, AI is getting all of the headlines.

Lenno: Absolutely.

Bren: think it's doing some cool stuff but there's quite a lot that happens before we start using AI. Have you found, I guess in your experience, does that get the due care and attention that it needs or do you think that there's a tendency just to jump straight to the cool and exciting stuff?

Lenno: As you're asking, I think indeed that we we tend to jump quickly into the nice and shiny stuff. That's the new the new gizmo, that's the new stuff that we want to take. And if my competition or partner company does it does it quicker than than I do, then of course I feel a bit of FOMO.

Bren: Mm.

Lenno: Yeah. I want to be part of this because it's it's super exciting. You see all kind of messy you cannot go on to any of the social media platforms, whether this is a business related one or a social media one, without being exposed to a form of AI. And so of course everybody wants to to hop on that Ferris wheel also. Yeah.

Bren: Yeah. Yeah, it's because I was so I mean, what's been taking a bit of my time this week is kind of looking at that a bit more in depth because I've had I've had some relatively animated conversations where, you know, the ROI is of AI that we talked about last week and kind of the people aspects. But actually, it's the it's often the hard yards. It's the bits that go to make up giving yourselves the right chance and

Lenno: Mm-hmm.

Bren: you know, the governance side of things or the policy side of things. As an ex external auditor, you know, walking into a room and people being pretty unhappy when they see you is you get used to it. But governance used to have the same sort of approach, didn't it? You'd be like, data governance. be like, boring. Well, this is it. Whereas now, as a very good friend of mine, and Adam, if you're listening, this is credit to you.

Lenno: let let's not do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Bren: It was like, well, why don't you just call it AI enablement? Then data governance becomes the sexiest thing in the world. And people are like, how do I, how do I get involved? How do I make or get us ready for AI? And I think that's, that's where I've found myself having a number of conversations this week is my belief is that you want to be light and agile on the governance to begin with. and then you can increase and work as you go rather than trying to just limit everything from the off try and work out all permutations just become known as the no-but people whereas actually it might be a little bit more risk-taking but trying to do just do a little bit can we get enough of the guardrails around so that people can use it and then we'll work it out as we go seems to give a better a better response, a better outcome or at least bring people on the journey. Have you found something similar?

Lenno: De definitely so. I think that that that also connects back to relevancy and objectives that you want to to achieve, whether this is personal or business wise. So let's stick with for instance business business objectives. The moment that there's relevancy from a business objective and there is a a functional leader backing that objective

Bren: Hmm. Yep.

Lenno: regardless of the process that you you want to bring in place, the data that you want to use, the standards that you want to apply, etc. Then there's relevancy. Relevancy that can be explained. Now the moment that indeed you come with you know what, let's do a governance process, then indeed to to what you said boring it's hard work let's not do it because it's going to limit me in my degrees of freedom now when you want to to set up I don't know warehouse management because you want to to orchestrate your inventory you want to have a bit of method as to how product flows in, how it flows out, where you are going to store it and so. It almost becomes natural that you need to have an overview of your dimensions of your products, how you are stacking this up on a pallet, how many layers a pellet has, how many pellets can you stack on top of each other before the whole thing collapses.

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: how much can you put onto it, weights, volumes and so on, so that you can calculate the position in your warehouse, you can calculate the position in your trucks, you can do your warehouse optimization, you can do your truck optimization, and so on and so forth. That almost comes natural.

Bren: Okay.

Lenno: If you're not having these functional drivers behind it, and you come with a governance proposal like, hey guys, let's standardize on these data elements and populate weights, dimensions, volumes, layers, and so on and so forth. One, people don't recognize it, don't understand the value, will not be articulating that, will not populate it, and therefore it's not gonna happen.

Bren: Hmm. Yep.

Lenno: Yeah, or even a question like can't you put an AI against it and then start to populate that information through protocol? How difficult can it be?

Bren: Yeah. I mean, the AI is going to solve all our problems, isn't it? it's it and as you're as you're talking because you your experience and career mostly been in manufacturing or kind of like non-financial services because so the reason for asking is as you're talking like governance from a manufacturer on manufacturing on operational business perspective like is it you the warehouse example makes a lot of sense because if you've ordered 20

Lenno: Mm-mm.

Bren: bottles of something and only 19 turn up, the customer's going to be bit hacked off. But from a financial services perspective, everything's numbers and spreadsheets and stuff. And I don't think people really give a shit about the spreadsheets as much as they do about whether the pallet's gone out with the right number. And so I just wondered, is that a fair assumption? Because I don't have experience in much non-financial services other than actually media is a wicked industry.

Lenno: Yeah, yeah. No, so may yeah, maybe we need to connect on that on that better. Indeed, my my background has been the majority within manufacturing companies. And I've done a little bit in financial services. Now if I transpose this to financial services, and and and then position is as credit management more specifically even

Bren: Okay. Yeah.

Lenno: Also in there we can think about standardizing or governing on your payment terms, your payment methods, the way that you are invoicing, what needs to be populated on an invoice, etc. You can put processes around it. You can argue that these standards are necessary, these quality controls are necessary, etc.

Bren: Yep.

Lenno: Why and therein, I think it comes always back to the why in itself: is we want to reduce the day sales outstanding, yeah, because that's better for our working capital. Yeah, we want to increase the days. maybe we want to increase the days that we are not paying our suppliers because that is the outflow of our funds, yeah. So

Bren: Mm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Lenno: Also in the financial services. But i I I I realize that this is a a a micro part of financial services that I'm now highlighting. I think generically we always should be relating back to a business objective.

Bren: And as you say that, so because I think about, I mean, I've done a bit of work in construction and the media world, but mostly financial services. And I might have touched on it previously, but one of the challenges I think in the governance aspect, in from what I've seen is ultimately the people that do the doing and not the people that have to fix the problems. And I think we've touched on this previously.

Lenno: Mm-hmm.

Bren: But actually when it comes to financial services and a lot of the time it's a regulated industry so there's somebody overseeing and you've got to make sure you get it right. There's a real emphasis on actually just fixing the problem when it arises rather than actually fixing it at source. I guess this is where kind of the genesis of the question I was thinking about is all the stuff that needs to happen prior to advanced automation, to AI, to doing all the sexy stuff. It's actually doing the basics really well, isn't it? And it's making sure that we do get the right data in the right columns and we do make sure that we're delivering as we wish to. And I just wonder whether because it's all spreadsheet based and it feels a bit ethereal and a bit kind of intangible, there's less of an element other than, God, data governance have said no or it's like the compliance team, isn't it? They're like, they're to say no, but how can we turn it around to yes, which I know is a bit unfair, but.

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: Yeah, I just wonder whether that is. That's that's a factor with it being financial services. I don't I don't really know.

Lenno: I think there's definitely relevance relevance in in in in what you're saying. regardless whether this is financial services or manufacturing or construction. if I drill back on some of the engagements that I've had with internal and external auditors

Bren: Hmm. Hmm.

Lenno: The auditor will quantifiably and objectively make a statement on my current process and will indicate improvements. Regardless whether the the process is solid already, there's always improvements that one can make. It will also indicate the areas where there are significant risk, there where improvements must be implemented to get us into a more reliable and solid structure. what I intended to do. Is actually taking the suggestions that were provided to me by the internal and also the external auditors, and then from that the next year, when the auditing team came back, we would always represent the improvements that we have been doing on the basis of all of the findings at that point. So there's definitely an evolution in it. And I think audit helps us exposing where the potential is. and it doesn't necessarily state how to fix that. That that basically resides with the with the functional owner.

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: To your point that spreadsheets are willing. I think also spreadsheets are giving us a sense of autonomy because I can create a spreadsheet. I basically am owning and and I actually yeah this might be mind-blowing for some people that's listening, but I can actually I can actually create a spreadsheet.

Bren: Can you? Can you create a spreadsheet? You were about to make a very serious point and I couldn't cope.

Lenno: Which is which is very appreciated as well. In that spreadsheet I can put an entry in there in every shape or form that I would like to. It starts to be difficult the moment that I need to share out that spreadsheet. If I'm sharing it out with only you, I think we both will be able to cope with it. The moment that we are working on that spreadsheet with 20 other people that may have put their spreadsheets on top of the spreadsheet that I've created, and I make an adjustment in the field format in my spreadsheet.

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: That will have a downstream effect on someone else. And I I may not be realizing or understanding what I've just caused. Because it's in my spreadsheet. Come on, we're talking about an Excel spreadsheet. How difficult can it be? And today we're we are connecting all kinds of applications.

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: In different departments, rolling this up into a data platform, a data lake or a data lake house, and building integrations on top of that, digital use cases on top of it, analytics on top of it, hell, AI on top of it. We are reusing the same data and we're expecting the same data to be available on a continuous basis. And then the moment that I adjust something in my individual Excel spreadsheet, call it an Excel spreadsheet, but maybe it's a an ERP source, a CRM source, a financial services source, or whatever that it may be, and you make an adjustment in the formatting of a data element that may cause an end-to-end ripple effect somewhere else.

Bren: It's I think you've articulated really well and and the I guess the analogy analogy or metaphor I'm never quite sure which way around it is is the Rubik's Cube. So you know the number of times We have conversations in businesses and you say, know If I'm looking after the data team, I might be trying to turn one side blue For I give a say, you know, that is my sole responsibility over the next how many years is to turn one side blue?

Lenno: Okay.

Bren: The bit that it's easy to forget is you might be tasked with turning your side yellow. But the problem is every time I move one of my bits, it affects you whether I realize it or not. And so the kind of the conversations I've tried to have is you might not necessarily know who you're affecting, but everything you do is going to impact somebody else whether you realize it or not. Because otherwise every time I can work really diligently being like, I'm to get this side blue and we're going to do it well. And all it does is continually piss you off. Cause every time I move something little, you're like, why is he not telling me? It's because I'm, I might not know. And I think that's really easy to forget, but we get so fixated with the sort of the blinkers on and be like, the data's got to be right. And we've got to do this and we've to get people in the right place. We almost forget what's happening across the business.

Lenno: Yes. No, precisely. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know I don't know if this is a realistic bridge, but I believe in the virtualization of everything that we're doing nowadays. and this this this may may be post-COVID more emphasized.

Bren: Yeah. Hmm.

Lenno: This situation worsened instead of improved. And my philosophy behind it is that I think that we've grown accustomed to more individualism instead of collaborating aside the the coffee conversation. You would run into people.

Bren: Okay. Okay. Yes.

Lenno: At the coffee table, at your smoking break, at your I don't know, coming into the office, and so. And then you would have a a simple non-business acumen conversation. It's a topic comes up, but then the person standing behind you, next to you, or or in front of you realized like,

Bren: Yep.

Lenno: Funny that you would have said that, because I'm working on this. And it's these type of coincidences that we have less of or none of. that one.

Bren: It's what is it the collision conversations? That's the that's the kind of the term I heard you. You bump into somebody and you're like, can I can I talk to you about X, Y and Z? Yeah, of course you can. And I think you're right. I hadn't actually connected it with with COVID, but we've become so kind of focused on our on our own little areas. And we talk about breaking silos down from data perspectives. But the irony is we become more siloed. because we don't talk to anybody.

Lenno: Yeah, we we we don't talk with with with people anymore casually because all of the meetings that we're having are pre-booked. We've then set up a a Teams or a Zoom or a meeting place call. We're having the call on topic, we're timekeeping, and we're moving on to the next one. Because I'm pressed for time, I'm late for my next meeting already. You know, it's

Bren: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Lenno: And we're all operating in this 13-inch box, which we call a screen. And then at the end of the day, we close the laptop for and and and move on to our more social side of social side of life. And don't don't don't take this the wrong way. I think it brought a lot of value as well.

Bren: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Lenno: But I also think that we've we've invested, to call it positive, or cannibalized, on our people to people engagement.

Bren: I think you're right. You may not be aware, but I'm sort finishing a thesis on my master's at the moment, which is around generation. I say Gen Z, it makes me feel a little bit sick every time I say it, but Generation Z and the post-pandemic, so servant leadership and Gen Z in the post-pandemic workplace. So what that's about is saying, I'm gonna sort of go off tangent a little bit, but hopefully it will make sense, is we are of a generation where, You know, what am I saying? So the largest workforce demographic that's about to hit employment or is in employment is Gen Z. They are coming, they are here. And it's easy for us who were working pre-COVID to see the benefits of being in an office, to have those collision conversations, to be able to just sit down next to somebody, build that rapport, build that connection so that when... When the proverbial does hit the fan, you can pick the phone up and say, have you got a minute? Because I've really F'd up here. But because of COVID happened and the younger generations that coming through, they're having to learn everything through screens, through hybrid working. And there's a theory that I've come up with, which is called the proximity paradox, which is all around for leaders to be able to invest in the people being close to them is key because that's how you create that connection. But when it doesn't, when you can't do that. How do we empower, instill, motivate, be there for people? Because one of the questions I asked in the interviews was if somebody calls you on Teams out of the blue, how do you feel? And almost unequivocally, they all freaked out. They were like, I don't like it.

Lenno: Yeah. Mm.

Bren: I'm like, that's mad. mean, when you think about we used to have to pick up the phone and call the people we didn't know, or you'd have to just walk around to somebody's desk. So the kind of the working norms and the reason for saying all that is I think you're absolutely right. The collision conversations, the individual people aspects that actually just turn around and saying, by the way, I know I'm gonna try and do this. Is it gonna impact you in any way? If it is, sorry, but also how do you think it might work? And it's those kinds of conversations that I think we started this whole podcast endeavor by virtue of it being more about the people than the data. And I think that's becoming more more true, but how it fits into certainly the governance side is I think you need people on side to be able to say, what are we trying to do to then work out where it goes rather than just getting really cross. That was the point I was going to make as well is the older generations, what we can't do.

Lenno: Okay,

Bren: It's just get really, it's just like get really moany. Just be like, they're workshop. They don't want to do anything. Well, it's actually our responsibility to say, how do we create the right environment to allow them to do their best? We've got we've got offices, we've got places at home to work. We haven't had to sit on the edge of a bed during COVID trying to work in a house here. I mean, that would have been really shit.

Lenno: I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Bren: So how do we not forget that, but then use it in a way that helps us move the data agenda and the technology agenda and everything forward? I think it's really important not to disassociate those.

Lenno: no, no, I'm I'm right there with you. I think this is also why I've mentioned that it's it's also brought us a lot. we've we've digitized the way that we're engaging, we've digitized the the interactions very, very much. I'm not yet there to state very, very good. Because I think and and my children are are an inspiration to me in that space as well. why am I mentioning that is they seem to have found methods of interacting with unknown people to them through the social media platforms. They're telling me that they have established friends and are speaking with a friend. Now, speaking, I translate to what you and I are doing now as well. That's speaking. That's my translation.

Bren: Okay. Yep.

Lenno: My children are speaking with each other through photos and a a subtle text Snapchat or speaking through text messaging over TikTok, Instagram, messaging applications. that's how they are engaging, it's their world. yeah, may I'm too old for this shit. So

Bren: Interesting. Yep. You

Lenno: Yeah. I have difficulty understanding that mechanism. So I've also mentioned in that safe environment that I'm expecting that there's going to be an additional push on digitization and and and work-life balancing and where do I operate from? Do I in indeed need to be in an office? For I think another two generations because we will grow older, we need to step out into the pension schemas, that that's the current leadership structure within organizations, before the workforce that is now coming in, which is way more digitized than we are right now, to hit that. Leadership level and maybe we need to to turn this around and promote much more from that from that side, forcing the digitization way earlier and then break through. And this is probably where maybe some of the the new companies that are being formed right now

Bren: Hmm.

Lenno: You see an escalation or an acceleration, sorry, not an ex escalation, it's an acceleration in how digital workplace, digital engagement, small offices indeed, small physical offices, but much more flexibility in the way that we're interacting, is giving

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: A lot more speed and agility in executing. Up until the moment that you hit a certain maturity in your organization, you need to then scale up. And then you get into procedures, protocols, governance, etc., which is where it becomes very, very difficult. Coming back to the example of the Excel spreadsheet, the moment that you and I are sharing the Excel spreadsheet between the two of us.

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: We can manage it regardless whether you're in Australia and I will be in in in Norway. You know, we can still manage it. The moment that we need to manage this with a company or with a group of people of a hundred plus, two hundred plus, three thousand plus, and so on and so forth.

Bren: Yeah. Yeah.

Lenno: Then all of a sudden you need to have a form of layering, a form of structuring, a form of adherence to protocols, plans, and so on and so forth.

Bren: So I agree with you, but I'm also slightly conflicted in the sense that... Do we, so I've had a fair few ding-dongs with the data governance community, because I'm like, keep it light, you come second, we'll work it out as we go. And they've gone, oh no, no, no, we need to have all the frameworks and everything else kind of situated to begin with. In that example, do you think it's, you try, you, what am I trying to say? Do you kind of gain momentum and then work out as it goes? Or do you think we need an idea of how we set it up to begin, which comes first? first.

Lenno: Ooh, yeah, that's a chicken on the chicken and the egg. so I'll I'll dribble a little bit on my well last couple of years of experiences. you know that I've worked for a well-established long heritage company in dairy before. Now there's a lot of

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: quote unquote maturity and process adoption and adherence to to standardism and and processes. So in that company I was also able to to build forward onto baselines that was already there. There's a method of engaging with each other. Stepping into the company that I work for right now, this is a company where multiple companies are coming together, so multiple cultures, highly paper-based. Highly call it let's call it agile for the positive the positive side of it. and and and and operating on the majority the view of the moment that it comes, we'll deal with it. Nevertheless, we need to to glue together three companies, 45 countries, yeah.

Bren: Yep.

Lenno: Massive amount of cultures we need to standardize across multiple ERP systems, multiple CRM systems, multiple data platforms, and on top, the outcome needs to be consistent, it needs to be reliable, and we need to have one metric across the entirety of the estate. So coming in. and then driving this on the basis will take it the moment that it becomes a necessity, of course that would be an ideal situation to work with. Because then there is indeed the relevancy, everybody recognizes the relevancy, etc. the timing of doing that is probably longer.

Bren: Yeah.

Lenno: To reach the number that needs to come out of the consolidated out of the consolidated pattern. So coming back to the financials a little bit. So what I need to do is to find that fine balance between what do we lay in as a global foundation, the non-negotiables, and where can we add to that as we go.

Bren: Yep. Yep.

Lenno: Laying in that foundation, of course, is then being reflected as this is too big to initially lay in as a foundation. And the argument that or or or the discussion then then more and more pivots towards what is the the the smallest amount of this is what we must do. So we've been feeling

Bren: Yeah, got you. Okay, so almost the least you can do to be safe to where you are.

Lenno: Exactly. So we've been peeling away layers and layers and layers and layers and and making it smaller and smaller and smaller up until the the part where we are right now that this is effectively the bare minimum. Now the next question, which is then becoming very relevant, is did the question about the magnitude of that standardization die down? The answer to that one is no. No it didn't.

Bren: Of course. Okay.

Lenno: because it's still an exercise that is that that we collectively need to go through, which is massive. There's a big piece of work. It's not an easy quick decision or an easy path to get there. You need to put in the work to get that foundation in place and then get towards that that that single number.

Bren: I guess it goes back to what the say a moment ago, nothing happens in isolation, does it? And so it would be a fool's errand to just think that you could do some governance-y stuff in absence of everything else, but not aligned to the overall objective of consolidating the platforms and bringing everything together. And I think it, kind of reflecting on our conversation now is,

Lenno: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Bren: Being, bringing people on the journey. I actually hate the word journey because everybody seems to be going on a frigging journey. It's like transformations, they never end. If you kind of involve people and bring them into the conversation and explain what you're trying to do, they might not like it, but at least they'll understand where you are and where you're trying to get to. And I think that's half the battle. And I heard not so long ago that it takes seven times for somebody to remember something.

Lenno: Yeah.

Bren: And we have a tendency in the data space to do this big announcement and be like, it's super important to us. We're to tell everybody when all of a sudden everybody now knows what we're doing and they'll be dazzled and amazed by what's happening. People forget it and then go, huh, okay. And we miss that. And I think what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is actually bringing people into that conversation, explaining what we're doing, working out.

Lenno: Yeah. Yep.

Bren: kind of the lightest touch that we can do to move ourselves forward without being reckless, to move towards the goal. It's that iterative step-by-step approach that seems to make sense.

Lenno: Yeah, and and and still then it's not a recipe for complete success. it's you will need to to be very agile and being able to respond to to changes as well.

Bren: You So what you're saying is we've talked for half an hour and we basically come to the conclusion that whatever you do, you still might not succeed.

Lenno: Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah, put it put put it like that. Put it like that.

Bren: But I mean, all jokes aside, think what we have touched on is that the people side again is a super important part of what we do. And the data gets the kind of gets the limelight a little bit, doesn't it? Be like, the data is wrong or the data is great or the data won't do this or the data does do that. The irony is my flippant phrase, Leonard, would be, know what data is an output, people bring it to life. And I think that's really where we've both landed.

Lenno: One hundred percent.

Bren: As we bring another fantastic episode to a close, any kind of closing thoughts? think we've covered the people side, but think what is reassuring and I guess quite nice that we both agree on that is that being data professionals, the people is still the important part.

Lenno: It's not a f thirty minutes. Come on. the the the most important aspect. I fully fully agree with that. Yeah.

Bren: Well, mean, I listen, I'm a mere data professional, not in the top 100 topics list. So I've definitely got some work to do, but, then again, thank you for a fab conversation to everybody listening. Please let us know what you think as ever. I think all the youth of today is saying, you know, like and subscribe. All we're after is a five-star review. You know, even if you don't listen, just write us a five-star review, it'll help us with the algorithms and.

Lenno: Okay. It's all it's all about the data then. Yeah.

Bren: Yeah, this is it. Then am I just going to sort of export the data and geek out on it a little bit, but we need some data to geek out on. So for everybody listening, please do like and subscribe and we will see you next time.

Lenno: Very well. See you bye.

Bren: Bye for now.