Season 3. Episode 4: Sandy Cohen interviews me about Regrets and how to manage them

Hello, and welcome to The Storied Human, I am so excited to share with you an interview I did with my friend Sandy Cohen. She is so cool. She has a podcast called inner peace to go. She has she's working on her master's degree in public health. And she's very interested in exploring how we can have more peace with with science backed methods, like everything that she recommends. She's basing it on brain science or studies that she's read research that she knows. And she's bringing this to her coaching practice, which I think is so cool. I love that she's so serious about it. And I love all the tips that I've already gotten from her, because we were in a podcast class together. And I meet with her and one other amazing person, Patti Martin, who I've also interviewed, I've interviewed both of these, these women, and I just learned so much from them. So she was kind enough to interview me, because I had done a workshop on regrets a while back. And I had some nice comments about it. And feedback, I felt really good about moving on with it and sort of developing it. But I had sort of put it on the shelf temporarily. But Sandy wanted to explore it with me. And I was really glad that she did that because I need to get back into it. And I wanted to work on it. And it was really nice to be able to just talk freely about it. So this episode is Sandy's interview of me on regret, enjoy it some, hopefully helpful. It offers some tips about how we can handle regrets and how we can keep them. You can't get rid of them. But we can keep them at a volume we can handle we can sort of manage them. So without further ado, here's me and Sandy Cohen. Well, I am so excited to welcome my friend and colleague, Lynne Thompson, thank you for being here. I'm so happy to be here. It's so cool. You asked me to do this. Well, I'm delighted. So the so I invited Lynne to come and talk today because Lynn held a workshop on regret which I attended. And it was really, really illuminating. And Lynn is both a student and teacher in this area. So I think that and I was just saying this to you before we started recording that I think that regrets can stand in the way of our inner peace, if it's something we end up like ruminating on, or it feels like sort of some unfinished business that gnaws at us. So what is regret? And why do we keep going back to it? That's those are that's the, you know, $25 million question. Regret is wishing you had done something different, and not being able to really go back there and change it. And sometimes it's a sister or brother to grief, it often shows up with grief. So you might have worked through the grief. But there's this regret over how the person died, or whether you did enough for them, or whether you were able to be with them. Like my mother died very suddenly, like 21 years ago now. And I wasn't able to say goodbye or be with her. It was just one of those things. And it took me a while to realize that that was lingering. I think for some people, it's not just losing someone, it's how you lost them, or getting past the suffering that they you know, went through if you know someone who had cancer, and it was a tough end to their life. So there's regrets can be all tangled up in grief and loss. And we may not recognize it. And I think it's like also, it's just that sadness that sometimes we don't name. You know, we're just we're sad or something triggers a memory of someone, it's often connected to a memory and you sort of beat yourself up over it. And I found myself doing that I found myself sort of going to certain thoughts or memories and just feeling terrible. Like that was going to help anybody you know? Yeah, well, I know. But we so do that, like we ruminate on things that make us feel horrible. And then we wonder why we feel so horrible, you know. But, you know, as you're talking about grief and loss, it made me think that we could have regrets about how we handled things in relationships or in jobs even like it doesn't even just have to be with like the actual mortal loss of a loved one. But you know, how I was at my job and I could have maybe handled it differently and why didn't I know better or something or save a relationship? Right? I think that's so good. I think it's there's like a million things that could cause you to feel regret. And I wanted to talk about what the word actually where it comes from, because I just laughed my head off when I found out because because regret comes from the old French, Greg Tay, which means to weep. So it's to re weep. It's to weep over and over. And I just, that's when I really had like a lightbulb, about what I was doing was I was going back to these situations, these memories, feeling terrible, and sort of re weeping. Like, it doesn't make sense to be sad over and over. It doesn't it wasn't getting me anywhere. And that's what spurred me to look more closely at how to, you know, not you can't get rid of regrets, right, you can turn the volume down, though, and you can restore them. You sort of like a memory, right? You don't want the memory to intrude. So you don't want the regret to get too big or loud. You can't you can't exercise it. But I also wanted to say I think it's it's overactive, conscientious people really who have sometimes big time regrets because a little bit of regret is good. You know, psychopaths have no regret. So if you're feeling this, you're not a psychopath. Right. Right. Although I was thinking they may regret that certain evil schemes they tried didn't work, you know, but more evil. But you know, it's a healthy thing to feel bad. And it's conscientious to take a look at what, you know, What mistakes did I make? What could I do differently, but to dwell on them is not good. It's not healthy, right? So there's a little like many things, right? There's a modicum of regret that is healthy and spurs you out of your guilt or your your regret to do better next time or to work on it. But some some of us get caught up in deep regret. Well, in what you said about grief, especially since you defined it as to re weep, it's like, okay, it's always going to be connected to someplace, either where we lost or came up short, or didn't have the results we had hoped or whatever. So it's always going to have that that grieving element to it. Yeah. What What have you found in your research are some ways that we can start to turn the volume down, as you said? That's a really good question, too. The first thing you want to identify, I found it helpful the two buckets to put the regrets into. So there are regrets you can do something about, like the person that you wronged or think you wronged is already a lot, you know, still alive. Or maybe out of touch but on the earth or you know, you can maybe do something about it, you can make amends as they say in, in AAA, you know that that same typical make amends, find the person talk about the situation, say you're sorry, try to make amends in some way. Those are easier, of course, than the regrets you can do nothing about because the person's gone. Or, you know, in my case, the animals gone. I have I had uncovered these. I just was like, why am I so sad about losing my dog? I mean, I know, I'm sad. I miss her. But what is it that's making me feel so bad. And it was really that, at the end of her life, I felt like we didn't do enough and we didn't find another Vet. And we could have, you know, treated her she had cancer and we didn't know it. And the vet didn't know it. And I I just felt like, endlessly sad because she was so important. I know you can relate to that. Absolutely. So there's regrets that you can't do anything about so the ones that you can do something about? Great. If you can stand it, get back in touch with the person, you know, say what you need to say get get your courage up. I mean, it's very healing, to approach those regrets that you can do something about. And sometimes Sandy, the person doesn't even remember what you did as as a as a really bad thing. Like, this is what happened to me. I went, I went out to lunch with my friend, Laura. I hadn't seen her in a while we got back in touch. So we had like a, you know, a break, I guess. And I got back in touch. And I always felt bad. When we work together like 30 years ago, I always felt bad that she wanted to go to Europe, we were talking about going to England, we work together, you're having such a great time. And I said, you know, let's she goes, Let's go to England. And I said, That's a great idea, you know, but at the same time, my dad was getting a divorce and moving to Georgia. My parents were divorcing and I really missed my dad and he said, Hey, this summer Do you want to? You'd only been there like seven months? Do you want to come down and go on a trip with them? You know, me and your stepmother and my, my father had a step grandson at the time who was 12 and I, I just thought you know, that would be really fine. I was like, 32 So I said, Yeah, so then I told her, you know, I can't afford both trips. And she was really like, sad, because I had told her I would you know, but I had told her I would the way you do sometimes like yeah, that'd be great. Right? You were you you went and like bought the airline tickets and stuff. But still, I think maybe I was a little flighty. You know, I just I don't know I've always felt bad about it. I still feel bad about it right? A little bit like not it's not one of my big regrets, but it came up at lunch. And I said I want to apologize for something Ah, I just have always felt a little bad that I never went to England with you. And she goes, what? She's gone to England with me. Like, she remembers everything. And I just thought, what a beautiful lesson for me. Like what I carry that, you know, what if I hadn't? Like, what if we weren't back in touch? You know, and I would just carry that with me forward as one of my, you know, my satchel of regrets when she didn't even remember, you have to remember that not everybody sees things the way you do, you know, very powerful. You know, I am like a drama queen, for sure. So, sometimes I overdo this, oh my gosh, the agony of regret. So she really, like healed me a little bit that day, it made me feel so much better and laugh at myself, that I was doing this. And you know, I want to tell people, you might be doing that too. Like this might be in your head. Or it is a regret, but the person doesn't think it's that big of a deal. Right? Right. So let's, let's on earth it and put it back out in the in the open. So they can be like, dude, no worries, or whatever. I love that. I love the feeling of that. So that was a good lesson for me. So those regrets you can fix, definitely try to. And then we get to the harder regrets. The regrets that you maybe can't, like, literally Fix You can. You can make them better, but you can't like, redo the situation or find the person for whatever reason, you know. So for those, you have to forgive yourself. That's the very first thing you have to do. You have to forgive yourself. And we both know how that happens, right? You. You have to talk to yourself the way you would talk to someone you love a friend, what I said to myself, when I was going through this training for myself, I said what would you say to a good friend. And I would say to that friend, you know, you were going through a tough time, then you did the best you could you didn't see the whole situation. You're just human. You know, I would just say you're just human, you gotta give yourself a break. You can't keep worrying about this, because you're just a human being. And so I said, Well, why can't I say that to myself, for heaven's sakes, you know, because you need to love yourself the way you love your friends, you give your friends a break. I know a lot of women like that. They don't give themselves a break. You know, this is a huge issue. I mean, even when you said the first thing you got to do is forgive yourself, I could just hear like part of myself, and maybe the listeners going well, well, there goes that because that ain't gonna happen, you know, because it's like, so hard to do. And I don't really know why it's so hard to do, but I know that it is and maybe it is that self love piece. Or we think like, well, I should do better than that. And like my standards are higher than that. And so therefore, like, I don't deserve forgiveness, but of course, what you said is absolutely true. Like, the way we would to a friend if a friend is going through a hard time if I would have known you at the time of your dog's passing, right? And would have said, like, oh my god, Lynn, you guys obviously love that dog. And, you know, like, you were doing everything you could like, it's easy for me to summon that for you. I think it's often it's harder for us to summon that for ourselves. And you know, this is really reminding me of our conversation. You know, full disclosure, we we talk every week on our pod squad meeting with Patti Martin, and we talked about perfection. And what that does to us. So I think this is tied in like, you know, well, I can forgive them. But I have to be perfect, right? You know, I'm holding myself to this higher standard. And I expect more from myself. But like I said, perfection is unattainable. So what are we doing? You know, what are we doing? Not not forgiving ourselves. And, you know, like saying to some people, some of my friends are still doing that. And we just you just want to say, well, you can come here and down here with the rest of us and join the human race because you are human. It's okay. You don't have to be perfect. Yeah, that gets in our way. Yeah. Oh, I think so too. But it's so important because too if we're talking about regret as like, something that we want to put I mean, I guess for lack of better way to say like put in its place like we don't want it to run our emotions and like now we're putting in its place. Yeah. So if we want to put it in its place, then it requires us taking this step of self compassion of saying you did the best you could certainly you did the best you could at the time, you weren't trying to like screw up or do things that now you later regret. I mean, you were you were trying to do right. So yes, so that's an incentive like even if we think oh, I don't deserve forgiveness, or I don't want to do it or whatever to remember that this we're talking about how to make peace with sometimes uncomfortable and painful feelings of regret, like and this is just a step in that direction. I think that's really good. And you can't know everything like I always feel like I have to know everything. And you know, I know more about my dog's operations. You know what, you know, or her treatment or what should have happened now, but like back then we didn't you know what really helped me with this so much. I have a friend who has an animal boarding business. I interviewed her on the podcast, her name's Christina. And she's such a wonderful person. You know what she said to me, she said, you know, vets struggle with that all the time. It's very hard to diagnose and female dogs. Very hard to tell. And I, it just made me feel so much better. It's like, well, if the vet couldn't tell you no. Right? How am I as a layperson, gonna tell, and you know what that makes me think of to like, when I think about doctors in science, I mean, science is always evolving. What we know now is different from what we knew, you know, 100 years ago, and even 50 years ago, and even 20 years ago. So like, we're always kind of doing the best we can with what we've got. And, and that's like a universal thing among our human species. So let's give ourselves a break, especially if we don't want to be beset with regret to the point that we have no emotional peace. Right. And I think it can really, it can paralyze you, I can imagine, like, I wasn't at that point, but I could see it, I could see, like, if I don't do something with, with this kind of useless returning to these sad places in my memory, I'm not going to move forward, it's kind of, you know, it's literally like a bunch of baggage that you can almost feel the weight of. So one of the things I suggest, and I know that forgive yourself is hard. But there's another component to things you can do about regrets that, you know, you can't fix with the people in, you know, in the present, is you can transform the regret by saying, Well, I'm going to learn from this, I'm going to learn from this, what did I learn? Or what do I think I could have done differently, and I'm going to do it differently, you're either going to do it differently from now, forward. Or if someone's going to in this situation, I'm going to share with them what I learned, and I'm going to make this better by transforming it into a pay it forward kind of thing. And so that will make you feel better, because you don't, you could do something with it. Yeah. And it's meaning making, you know, I was just talking with a physician, she's a psychiatrist that I was interviewing, and we were talking about the importance of meaning making, and connecting, like things that feel painful, or like what on earth, you know, like, like connecting it to something that is meaningful, whatever that looks like for you in the scope of your understanding in the scope of your spirituality, or whatever. And this is one way to make that regret, have meaning and value beyond just like, I beat myself up over it, and I feel terrible about it. Right. I think that's wonderful. I think that helps. You see on the news, if somebody has a terrible tragedy, they lose maybe their son or daughter very early, they turn it into something that helps people, they become an actor, or they Yeah, and to me, that's just such a beautiful human thing, and it connects you, it connects you to what it is to be human, you know, to reach out and hold on to each other and say, Look, this happened to me, and I want to not have it happened to you. And let's work on something positive, like let's work on making this better. You know, what else can we do once we've worked on forgiving ourselves and try to, you know, see what either what meaning we can make of it or use it to help others that are there other steps we should take to put the regret in its place? Yeah, if you, if you find the thoughts are still floating up, and I did, you know, you can catch them and do like a retraining, you can replace the thought eventually, you know, it's like a common technique where you sort of, I mean, some people even put like a rubber band around their wrist. And they snap it right. It's an old technique. But it's really good because you associate Oh, that's not supposed to be happening. Let's pause right? And I did this and it's, it's really useful, where you just you get that thought, like up, I'm getting sad. Again, I'm thinking about that thing. And then you just say what, and you replace it with that positive spin like, okay. Like, for me, I really felt sad that I wasn't with my mom. And I just really felt bad that I couldn't, you know, say goodbye. So this is what I said to myself. I said you your mother knew you loved her, like she knew. Right? And now she doesn't need you to feel sad because she's, she's not needing that from you. You she doesn't want you to feel sad, but she knew that you loved her and what you can do to feel better is if one of your friends and this is unreal, sort of repeating myself, but if one of your friends is uncomfortable or doesn't know what to do say go you know if you're allowed to be with your parent, go be with them. Yeah, I don't want you to have this regret if you're if it's possible for you to be with them. But I got off the subject that was thought that comes, you need to retrain your thought you need to replace it with a more positive thought. So thought comes up, take a moment, take a breath, and say the new thought three times, you know, take a really deep breath and say the new thought three times. And it could be really simple. But you're, you're putting that new thought you're, you're creating that habit of, I'm not going to have this old button anymore, I'm going to have this new thought I did the best I could or did the best I could or like this, this time is past is behind me now or something like that. Like, it doesn't even have to be I mean, I'm leaping here, you'll tell me if this No, that's excellent. Okay, so he doesn't really see like, okay, I'm fine with this. Like, you don't have to say a thought that you don't even believe you can say, like, there's nothing I can do about it now, and I'm doing my best going forward, or? Yeah, well, that's exactly right. Um, so how do we let go of them, I had a section in the workshop that says, accept any fault that you actually have fully, I didn't talk about that. But, you know, maybe you did do something wrong, like you're maybe over releasing, but you did do something wrong, except the fault fully. And if you own it, then you can let it go. Or you can put it in its place. And again, it's just a series of, of habits, like retraining yourself not to have those things. There's also a ritual you can do, which I love. It's kind of like based on the burning bowl, if you've ever heard of those, you know, the Unitarian Church, in particular, they do like a burning bowl ceremony at New Year's, where you write out your hopes for the new year on a little piece of paper, or you can do an eraser of negative you can write, you're ready to let go of like things. So I'd really like to burn up yeah, like let go of, and put them in the bowl and burn them. And I did a small version of that with friends several years ago, was super powerful. It's just, and I was trying to figure out, like, what is it about it, and it's just that human beings need actions, you know, they need to get together and they need to do actions, as they say, what, what they want, or as they're thinking what they want. The ritual reinforces that the it's why it's so old. It's why rituals work. Because human beings are moving through something, they're actually you know, going through a set of movements with other human beings. And it's super powerful. It's much different from just sitting and praying or hoping or, or thinking it's a nice addition. So what you do is you just get like a little votive candle and put it on a little plate where you can get like one of those really cute cat like Jar candles, and take some strips of paper and write out the regrets. And then very, with a lot of like, they say intention, right? Take it, as you're writing it, really think about it, you might even want to say it out loud if you're alone, and just write it and just say like I would write, you know, I wish I had been able to do more for my dog. And then for my Chrissy and I would take the piece of paper. And I would think and and really intentionally put it in the fire and know that it was going to go not away, but it was going to really be lessened in my mind like transmute exactly, I was going to I was going to take away the the bulk of it, it was going to was going to go away and it's going to burn up. And it's just really good to have that sign that your regret has been burned up. You'll feel better, I felt really much better. Even demonstrating it for the workshop, I felt better. Well, you know, it gives you that kind of like, well, like you said ritual like a ritual of closure or release. Or it's like, you know, I'm not just like it's not it makes it tangible. This is not just happening in my head and art with like emotions and you know, distress. This is like something I'm going to It's physical. Here's the paper, here's the fire, you know, and you know how they say like, your brain doesn't know the difference. Your brain says, Okay, this is going to change this. This is going to help. Yeah, your brain sees a burn up. Okay, it's burned up, like your brain doesn't really know. Right? Right. I'd like to know more about that. If it you could tell me more, we could find out more about how the brain reacts to ritual. I wonder if some of it doesn't have to do with placebo effect. If we believe something, you know, I mean, and there's a ton of science behind this. This is why like, people who are developing new medications have to prove it works better than a placebo because if you give me like a tic tac and you tell me this is going to calm your anxiety or this is going to help you sleep better tonight, I'm quite likely to report Oh, that totally worked. It really helped me sleep better. I love that new medicine and you're like it was a tic tac, you know, so So I wonder if ritual doesn't not the exact same way but like we expect and see this as a way to release this, you know, tension or regret or whatever. So that when we do it, we expect that to be the result and then we experienced that result. Yeah. I love that and you know they they say like it Self healing was impossible, there would be no placebo effect. So you're literally setting yourself up for self healing. Well, and it's, it's absolutely true, at least as it relates to medications. I mean, because I know like with antidepressant medications, the antidepressants are only a little bit better than a placebo. So if you literally give someone a tic tac, and your like, this will improve your mood, like, a lot of the time it works, you know, just as well as like, if you gave them a Zoloft or something so like Little Miss placebo, like if I had to stop telling people to take certain supplements or raving about them, you know, like I take, I take certain supplements that do a lot for me. I'm not saying they don't, I'm just saying things work for me. Right? That might not work for me, because we believe it. I really believe it. Yeah. And so I never really thought about it. Like somebody said to me, Oh, I have a headache. And I said, didn't you take? Did you take something? Did you take some pain reliever and they said, you haven't I still have a headache? And I'm like, what? You don't? I had no idea. Literally, I think I was in my 20s I had no idea that people could take a pain reliever and not have their pain go away. Like I remember being like, oh my god that exists. That's so interesting. So yeah, I wonder if that isn't part of the ritual. And especially if you like with this regret releasing ritual that we're talking about if you are conducting the ritual for yourself or for your family, what whoever's with you in such a way that you're like, we're releasing this regret, like, that's sign. That's what this is about. This isn't an accident. We're not just like, you know, we had a candle going and we just put something in it. No, this is my attention. Intention. There has to be that intention. You have to get into like a prayerful or meditative state. Yeah, I think that I think that's what we're talking about is the placebo effect. You're right. That's so cool. But I know it really helped me. It you know, if nothing else, it gives you something to do about it. Yes. Because so often we feel helpless because we're like, Okay, I can't go back in time. This person or This being is no longer here. I can't fix it. What can I do? But you know, when even as I was just saying that I'm thinking, you know, what you can do is you heal yourself, you bring your better self forward. Like that's one thing you can do, like even the beings, like when I'm thinking of your dog, Chrissy, like you know, I mean, I know a dog is not a person and stuff but you know, feels like it. But anyway, you some of them really do. Yeah. But the spirit of Chrissy would not want you to forever suffer the spirit of Chrissy is one that loves you. And so it would want you to go forth thriving, it wouldn't want you to be like forever downtrodden, with regret. So maybe one of the things we can do, in addition to the ritual is to go forward with like, I'm not saying total joy, but at least to go forward, like with optimism and light. Yeah. And I think by finding those positive things that you can do out of what you've learned, you can really help that process, you know, because I felt better just saying it to myself, well, you know, I'm not going to let anyone worry about their dog and not investigate maybe that it could be this, you know, or I'm not going to let anyone doubt that they need to be with their parents, if they can, you know, I'm going to always represent that, not that I, you know, really know what's good for anyone, but I'm gonna if I get a chance, encourage a friend to do what maybe I wasn't able to do. I remember saying to somebody, you don't want to have regrets. I remember seeing that. I think I said it to my brother because he said, Oh, I don't know if I can get down there. And you know, see Dad and I was like, Yeah, but you don't want to have regrets. Yeah, but see, that's valuable, that's giving wisdom from your heart. And so you can really turn it into something like that, which is so much better than walking around, like, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm, er, you know, they're bitter. And I'm just comfortable being sad over things. Yeah, and I uncovered that, for me, it's like my focus on the past, you know, it's like, linked with, I'm just too much in the past too much in those memories. And, you know, I'd even go out on a limb and say, That's what writers tend to do, because we remember a lot. And we write from our memory, and maybe we live there a little too much. So it kind of like wakes you up, like you can't be living in your regrets or your past, right? Memories are fine, but they have their, you know, their again, we're always talking about this balance that we're striving for. What did doing this research and doing this workshop? How did that change the way like Did it change anything about your behaviors going forward? Did it change anything about your understanding of you know, what other people are experiencing? Like, how what would sort of the broader implications of doing this work? You know, I think I was pretty compassionate before and I was always trying to like, support people, but this made me more likely to speak up you know, more likely to speak up, I wasn't afraid to speak up and I was, I could come from that place of you know, I had this that, just that sort of, I've been there I had this experience. And I find that, you know, you really need to be kinder to yourself. I, I also, I gotta tell you, I felt lighter. After I did this, I just felt lighter. And there is a heaviness to regret and to hanging on to the past. We all talk about baggage emotional baggage, you know, you can almost feel it physically. Yes, you know? Sure. Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful. Yeah, you were able to have that release. And then, you know, for those of us who were able to be in the workshop, like you so generously offered that experience to us, that we could learn to share, you know, and so it's I mean, that that's really powerful. That's another way of transforming regret, right? Like, not only did you tell your, you know, your brother to like, be there for dad, and you know, tell your friends about dog, but you like, conducted this workshop for us, your other friends to get to just learn this and not knowing what our regrets might be. But just saying, Hey, here's a process that could be really helpful. So I thank you for also kind about, you know, it was my first regrets workshop, and you were also kind of out, attending, and it really did feel good to share it to. I mean, my whole thing is why go through something if you can't share it, like, what's the point, you know, of going through it, feeling bad learning whatever you went through, if you can't share it? Yeah, it's beautiful. And I know that you're gonna touch so many listeners with this conversation today, because everyone's got stuff they regret. And if you're, if it's weighing on you, you know, this is like, proven, proven strategies to help lighten that load. Yeah. So I thank you so much for that. You're welcome. And I changed the title. Because when I looked more at this and did a little more, brushing up before we talked, the title was letting go of regrets. But I realized it's just, you know, turning down the volume. They're not going away. But they're, they've got too much volume in your head. Well, and it sounds like you've made kind of a peace with it, just like the like, almost like a scar like, Okay, that was where I ate it off my bike. And now I've got that little scar here, but it's more, you know, yes, but I see it. And to me, that's so, so much more healthy to be accepting. Like, it's all part of you. It's all part of you. You know, you don't just like throw away parts of you. But you, you know, you've balanced and make. Make that harmony. Yeah. And it's like you metabolize it and then it can become something else, then I think it can become like the workshop that you offer to your friends or advice that you give to a loved one. Yeah. I love the scar analogy. I love that. Yeah. Oh, that's really good. It's always good talking to you. That's great talking to you. So I want you to please Well, before we close, I want to say that Lynne is also the host of a podcast, where she so beautifully extracts fascinating stories from people. So do you want to talk about the story human? Oh, I'd love to thank you. Um, yeah, almost a year. I've had it February 14, it'll be a year. And I don't think I ever would have stuck with it without the podcast class. And all the beautiful women like you and Patty that I met. It's just been a journey. And I just love that people share so much, you know that I get to hear about how people overcame things. And I've had so many interesting entrepreneurs on and people talking about mental health. So it's just a great place to share. If anybody has a story. I'm always, always open for a story. Well, thank you. And then please tell listeners where they can find you. And don't be surprised if you get like demand for you to re host that workshop if people want to be led by you through this experience. But how can folks get in touch with you? That would be lovely. I'm on Instagram at L Thompson. Capital L capital T. l Thompson underscore 574. I didn't change it because I've had that for a while and I just know people know it. And I'm on one email, the storage human@gmail.com and the storage human is on Spotify, Apple anywhere you get your podcasts. Terrific. And I'll link to all of it in the show notes. So folks, thank you, you and thank you so much land. It's always wonderful talking with you and I really loved unpacking regrets with you. So thanks. It's wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much.