Season 2-- Episode 9: Kreed Revere on her life and work: How to navigate through Estrangement from your children or your parents

Hi, and welcome to The Storied Human. This is Lynne Thompson. This episode tonight is with a friend of mine who I met in our podcasting class. And I've gotten to know her pretty well. And she generously offered to be interviewed. And I'm fascinated with the work that she does. Because she runs a podcast a very successful one I might add, called the estranged heart. And what the estranged heart tries to do is give support and community for navigating the emotional storms of parent and adult child estrangement and repairs and transforms relationships with one another in healthy and productive ways. It's a big goal, but creed revere finds herself achieving it. And I'm really, so glad that this podcast exists. I'm so glad that you found your way to doing this. We, we have a mastermind that meets every couple of weeks. And we were sort of like the Creed revere fan club, we really really admire your success. First of all, you're very successful. And I have to congratulate you for that. But it's what your success came out of. It's you're exploring this area that people need you to explore. So I also wanted to mention that you're a pretty interesting person. You described yourself as an out of the box person, a bit of a philosopher, a bit of a mystic, and I think that's true. And you legally changed your name in 2012. And I found it really intriguing when you told me the story. You chose your name, Creed Revere, and somebody from a spiritual group that you had been part of where you had been. You had been called Reverend, she noticed that the last couple letters of your name. Will you tell me you tell me how it goes? I'm watching it. Okay, thanks, Lynn. Now, the last, the first three letters of my last name, your last name, our AV. So it's right in there and you didn't even try? Like that's I did not put two and two together until she said something about it. Yeah. Now tell us tell me just a little bit more about your personal background. I know you have two children of your own. And you have an interesting and you were a police officer. And you were a surrogate Tell me about that? Because that's pretty intense. You were twice a surrogate? Yeah, yeah, I had my my two daughters and knew that my family was complete. And, you know, I remember back, I don't know if you remember there, the baby M. Case. Yeah, it was back in the late 80s. And I had just had my first daughter when that case was in the national news. And I remember thinking as a very young mom, my heart was just ripped apart by what was happening with this baby. And I just thought there has to be a better way there has the I just kept saying to myself, there has to be a better way. And I didn't know anything about anything about surrogacy at that point in time in my life. But I just had this kind of this there has to be a better way on the backburner. And so I go on with life and had my second daughter. And and then ended up meeting, never, I was never in a place in my life, where I felt like I would have been supported as a surrogate mom. And, and so and I had later come to find out, you know, what all was involved with it and things like that. And so I just kind of, you know, tabled that idea and thought, well, you know, would be a lovely thing to do. But I don't know that I'll ever be in a place where it would be feasible. And so then I met the love of my life and ended up remember she came a day and I said so I have I have this thing I want to do and she was always so supportive of anything that I wanted to do like just there was just no questions asked it was okay to do. And I said I I want to be a surrogate mom. She looked at me like what little bit of a surprise right little totally out of left field for her. And so Anyway, that that is what started me on that journey. And about a year and a half after I, you know, had that converse, that we had that conversation, I ended up meeting the intended parent for my first set of twins, I carried two sets of twins for two different families. And when I tell this, when I, when people find out that I've been a surrogate mom, they tell me, you know, what a what a gift you've given in these types of things. And I tell them, it really was a gift to me. I really, it truly, it was a very pivotal point in my life, taught me a whole bunch of things that I had never known about before. And, you know, helped to bring for human beings into this world and create two families. And so very unique experience. learned tons. And it was just Yeah, it was it was fantastic. Really was amazing. I think that that speaks to you being ready to go through that, to really feel it and to go through the transformation. It's so cool. I just love that you did that. And you helped two families. Mm hmm. Yeah, it was. It was interesting. There were you know, I mean, there were lots of sacrifices on my part, as well as my family, because of the umpteen million doctor's visits and all the things that come with that. And, you know, it was really interesting, because at the when it was happening, I didn't really realize, I mean, I knew I was going to all these appointments and things, but I didn't really realize the true depth of the sacrifice that my family was making in order to also help. So I also talked about that today. I'm like, it wasn't just me. It was me and my family that helped make this possible. Everybody, you're right. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. And not everybody could do it. No, no, agreed. One of the questions that I get asked most often, when folks find out I've been a gestational carrier, and just for clarity purposes, I was a gestational carrier. So I was the oven. There was no DNA, my DNA was not your carrier. So I was I was only a gestational carrier. So but the the first question I'm always asked is, How could you? How could you give them up. And I always tell people, they weren't mine to give up. You have that in your head from the beginning. That are basically it's how I looked at myself. You know, when I had the kiddos, and then I went home after the first set, it was really, I had a really difficult transition. And it wasn't because I didn't have the babies. It was because I had spent almost a year of almost daily contact with this intended parent. Yes, from some form, or fashion, whether it was over medical things or just interest in things like you know, preparing, Hey, just wanted to let you know, the baby's move today, hey, this happened today, you know, really filling them in on what this pregnancy was like, so that they could be as much a part of it as possible. And so then, when they go home with baby babies, of course, then their life is like, you know, turned upside down and inside out, and they don't know which end is up and and then I'm home. Not having this daily contact. It was like I had lost. It was almost as if I'd lost a best friend. Really? It would be so hard. And I would imagine you crash after you know, just it's a crash. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was it was easy. Very different. Yeah. Do you hear from them at all? Are they the first set I do? They, they are 18. Oh my gosh, 19 years old now. And the second set at the end of this month will be 17. I'm not in contact with the second set they that was for an international couple and they do live in another country. And so I haven't very, very different experiences with both of them. The first set the parent, it was a single parent. And the parent wanted me to be as involved and they wanted the kiddos to know who I who I was and what role I played in their life and that type of thing. The second set was very different And it was just very different. So I haven't seen or heard anything about them since they were three. Wow. Yeah. So yeah, totally different experiences. Exactly. Yeah. I'm just amazed that you could do that not just once but twice. And twins both times. You're a badass. I my OBGYN would probably defer when I showed back up in the office with the second with the second time, and he was like, twins again. That was quite that was That was cute to see. You don't hear that all the time. Right. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was interesting. And and both sets were not not. Not just twins both times. But boy, girl twins both times as well. So yeah. Yeah. So very so cool. One pregnancy and boom, you got a boy and a girl. Yep. Exactly. So tell me how you came to this place where you knew we needed your podcast. Oh, my goodness. So I was an estranged mom. Both of my daughter's estranged from me and 2016. And it was there have been two or three times in my life that my life has hit some crisis points. And you think this is the worst of the worst. And for me, the estrangement was took the cake by far. It was devastating to me. I lost all sense of who I was. I didn't know which end was up high. It just really, really was emotionally devastating to me to live with. I can't imagine. Yeah. Very. And I share with with folks that. You know, I said in the middle of my estrangement, you kind of think as a parent. If all if everyone in your life were to walk out that the people that would remain would be your kids. Right? Like, if ever you know your partner left, you know, your parents pass away. Your siblings don't talk to you, whatever. Your kids will always be there. You always have your kids. Right, right. I think we all assume that and it's true. Yeah, this is true. I found out that that was not true. We have since reconciled and reconciled. I was estranged from one daughter for about a year and the second one for about two years. And so we've been reconciled longer than we were estranged now. And we are in a very much healthier place, and good relationships with one another. However, it took monumental work on my end to get there. And that was what really has been the catalyst for this podcast. I had people ask me, you know, when they learned in my estrangement experience, do you have a book? Have you written a book? Have you you know, and I know, I was went through it. You know, this is this has been a personal experience. I know. None of that has been on my radar. I did start a couple of support groups. When one of them when I was in the middle of my estrangement. Well, both of them really. That one really took off after we reconciled and and that I started to see how prevalent this was. When I did not realize before how many parents go through estrangement and the absolute utter heartbreak. That was half a station and people don't talk about it. I don't think of it as something prevalent. So there was a real need there. Yes, absolutely. And so I started working with with moms, they would reach out to me, you know, I don't know how did you reconcile and things like that and so so I had a you know, a friend of mine who encouraged me to do a podcast and podcast, podcast, podcast, but doing up How do you do it? How does one do one right, right. Like I had no clue about anything. And that's when I happen to come across. You know, Cathy's course and the course that you and I were in and, and it kind of took off from there. And it has turned into something that I could have never dreamed possible, ever. And you know, the best things are like that. I mean, that's what I think that's what I feel about you, you plugged into something real and authentic, and you stay in the zone, and you go with it. And it's almost, you know, outside of you, it grows. Yeah, it's not like you're focused on growing it. But it's a natural result of you following something very true. Like, you know, your North Star is, I'm just so I love watching you grow. I mean, it's just so fun. And it's very inspirational to the rest of us to watch what you've done. And I love how you, you know, you say that so often, like, I never could have imagined or I, you're surprised when people give you, you know, tell you how meaningful it is for them. And I think that's what people say, when they're just in the zone, you know, they're not thinking about whether their voice sounds good, or whether they can get more readers or listeners or I still say readers or listeners next week. Yeah, and, and that's what makes you, you know, just so centered, you're very centered about what you're doing. And I'm just tickled that it's so it's just so it's grown so much, and it's so influential, because I really think you're helping people who needed to be helped. Totally, totally. I mean, this is a estrangement is a very shaming thing. Yes. Parents feel, especially moms feel a lot of shame, when their kids are estranged from them. And if you feel shame, you're not likely to talk about those things with anyone. And so then it becomes very isolating. And so when they find someone else who has been through that, and has made it out the other side, it's almost like, uh, you know, they're clinging to, like a life preserver that, oh, my gosh, please help me to figure out what to do here. How to how to make this better? Because it's like you said, it's devastating. It's not just a heartbreak. It is utter. I mean, I was on the floor in the fetal position. I mean, it was just it was, you know, how do you know that we we say, we don't know how prevalent it is. But as I think back, there's always been family members of either people I'm close to or my own family, you hear these stories about how and she never spoke to her son again, or he never spoke to his father again. And I always think, really, like you didn't repair it. Like, this is horrible. You know, you just you just don't even know how people keep going. And I do know, a family. The mother stopped speaking to her brother, or, I mean, she's in her 70s Now, and it was like, maybe 40 years ago. And something happened. We don't know what it is. God help us. You know, I mean, they write novels about this kind of stuff. It's just unbelievable. The tragedy. Yeah. Yeah. And it. And it's generational, you generally find which is, and this is another very interesting piece of this is that. So, here, I find myself estranged. I'm working as an estrangement and reconciliation coach, I have this podcast. And I'm recording an episode one day, and it hits me. Like, a feather could have knocked me over. At that point. I was like, Oh, my God. I was actually also in a strange little child. Never. I never knew that word estrangement when I was. And so I just had these periods of time when I didn't talk with my mom. Because I was mad or pissed off at something, you know, and, right. But that's exactly what a stranger meant. Yeah, that's the end, you didn't have the name for it. I totally get that like your reevaluating times in your life. And you call it by by its actual name. Exactly. And it's so true a lot. I think a lot of people have times in their life like that, where they maybe when they were younger, did not know how to deal with stuff that happened. And so you just, you know, talk to the hand you just it's easier to just cut off communication, which of course doesn't do anything for anyone except depress everybody and make everybody bitter and sad. Right. Pretty. It's not a coping mechanism. It really Yeah, exactly. So I I really have and that, you know, affords me a unique perspective because I can come I'm at this from the experience of an estranged mom. And understand that pain, like I mean, I, until my dying day, I will always remember what that pain was like it was just something forever etched upon my heart. But also, I can come at it from the estranged adult child's perspective as well. And know what they're trying to get to see of them, either don't have the skills or don't, you know, they're just tremendous fear and stepping back into a relationship with a parent who's disappointed them or let them down or, you know, abuse them or all sorts of things. And so, and that's what I hear from a lot of people that reach out to me is that they really appreciate the fact that even I mean, and I get that from estranged parents are like, I appreciate the fact that you can, you can see this from both perspectives. It's unusual and very helpful. Yeah, yeah. That's excellent. So you were made to do this, I think. I think so. You know, and it's interesting, because I, you know, we take we have times in our life that bring about immense pain. And the, the one thing we want to do is just make it go away. And don't ever talk about it again, and don't ever do anything, you know, like, just I want to forget about this time in my life and just go on with like, just go on with getting on. And I am not that type of person. And I feel like I experienced this so that I could help other people. Because if you are not estranged, if you've not experienced that, you do not know what it is like, you cannot No, you can't No, you can't No. Right. And I've had I've had people who who have asked to work with me versus their therapist on the estrangement piece, because of that very reason. Like, I can talk to this therapist, I can talk to this person over here, but they don't get it. They understand, right, what I'm feeling when I accept this, you know, therapists are great, but they're only right. And they can't know everything. Right. Exactly. Wow, that's so cool. So there's like this, this space, if you will, this, this need, and I think you're filling it so well. And people just let you know, by the growth of your podcasts like we need this. We really need this. And I think it's just much more than talking about estrangement. You're teaching people how to be healthy again. Right? Right, and approach things in a healthy way. Exactly. I hear so much. I'm like, I hear from our here, moms say, I just want things to get back to the way they were I just want things to be normal again. And I'm like, no, no, no. Don't. You don't want yeah. Because that wasn't healthy. That's what got you where you are today. That's what led to the estrangement. Right? It's back wasn't normal, whatever you're thinking. Right? Right. Right. It wasn't. But it's like what we're taught, you know, we're always taught to like, stuff it down and keep on going or, you know, we're going to bounce right back. And we're going to it's just not real. And it's so not real. posted something about people saying they didn't use these words. But I really related to what you posted on? Was it Facebook today where you talked about people saying, you know, you're feeling too much, or you're? Yeah, I've had that my whole life. You're too sensitive. You think too much, really too much? You know, let go of it. Blah, blah, blah. But actually, that's more normal, if people realize like, what we should do in life, right? Well, no, it's not just that it's more normal. It's healthy. Yeah. But I mean, like, Yeah, I mean, it's not what society really understands yet. Right? We're reading a book in Sandy Cohen's. She had she does interpeace to go. And she, she does self help books. And the latest one we're reading is called bittersweet. And I think you would love it. Oh, my gosh, it's so beautifully researched. She took four years to write this book. And it's about the power of melancholy. And that bittersweet feeling and how so much comes out of that, and how I thought this was really fascinating how American society is not. It doesn't embrace melancholy. It embraces sanguine, you're always peppy and happy and positive, no matter what, like you're ready to die inside, but you're supposed to be positive, and it's that toxic positivity. And so your your posts on Facebook today really hit me because I'm embracing that about myself the last several years. So you know, I took a quiz online about how sensitive Are you and I'm really really sensitive, and so is my son. And, and yet, are we? I mean, this is just how everyone should be probably I mean, right? They even said there's a, there's a theory that people who are very sensitive that we retain those skills as men evolved because we smelled the fire first, we heard the animal approaching first, we could tell the poison, we could smell the or, you know, whatever we had more, that there's a reason that that's been retained. And so I just felt so validated by that. So you're just you're just naturally like that. I mean, you didn't have to, like work on I had to work on, you know, not listening to other people and, and being myself but you are naturally like that. You said, I'm not that kind of person. You weren't going to just stuff it down? Well, yeah, but I did it. I was not necessarily. It was not necessarily a healthy way. When when I was younger, because I was very, my my mom, I love my mom, I love my mom, my but my mom is a very proper Southern woman. And she is very much you are the good girl, you sit down and you're you're not to be, you know, you're to be seen and not heard. Don't make waves, let's not rock the boat, those kinds of things. And I'm all about rocking the boat and lifting the carpet up and saying, you know what's under here? Let's look. And yes, yes, she really had, she did not know what to do with me when I was young because and then because she was not receptive to that I, I became very angry because I was like, I'm trying to be who I am. And you're not accepting me for who I am. And so then I became very angry. And then I entered into a career where I got even more angry, right as a law enforcement officer and working in the field of public safety. And so I went for the majority of my adulthood being very in touch with my feelings, but in not so healthy ways. And it took this estrangement two and years of weekly therapy to get me out of that, and to become soft and more tender. And I'm still myself, but it's in much healthier ways. Right? Yeah, the amount I can get angry, but I don't have the volatility involved with it anymore. And much more tender and soft and things like that. So yeah, yeah. So you, you sort of readied yourself as the vehicle for what you're doing. Now, I feel, I mean, I just feel a spiritual component to this so much like a, you've had a calling, and you prepared yourself. It's just such a journey. And it has that it has that feeling of God calling you using you. It has that feeling to me, agree. And I felt that at different times in my own life. And I don't even know what to do with it, because I'm very confused about what I believe. But there's definitely that spiritual feeling of, I was called here to do this, because I had this experience a couple of years ago, where I worked at a company and they they said, Oh, you'll be this writer, and you'll help us design, you know how we're going to do everything. And we have this person to help you. And she used to work at this company. And you know, she was a mechanical engineer, but she really wants to be a tech writer. And I started the job. And it was just not really what they said it was so much harder. And I felt really bad for this person, because she was sort of shoved into this role. And I had to train her. And it was like driving us both a little crazy. And it really was difficult. And I lasted for nine months at this company. But we're still in touch. And she's had some troubles recently, I just reached out to her. I sent her an email this summer. And I just it's so powerful. I was called to help her. I don't know how or why these things happen. I was not enjoying it. But I look back on it. And it seems perfectly natural that God used me in that way. She desperately needed that job, and especially the benefits, because there's all kinds of things going on with her health. And we used to talk about it and she'd say, I can always talk to you about my health. And I always I had not, I didn't have the level that she did, but I had health concerns and it made me more compassionate and I could talk to her about it. There was such a strong feeling now when I look back of being used by God in such a good way, like just being used to help someone who really didn't know how to get there any other way and actually feel good about it now so life is so weird the twists and the terms. Absolutely. Well, you know, I think it's interesting what is that? Someone once told me you know, if you want you know, we all we often say I wanted to have my dream job and I want it you know I want to be here used for good and all of these things, and then God comes along and delivers it. plops it in your lap. Wait. Anything but that not that. Right? It's so true. And it is absolutely true. Absolutely, utterly friend, I'm sort of stunned because I was like, not enjoying it at the time. But I cared for her, you know. And now I see that, you know, she's safe. She has benefits. She has her job that she was, it was so important for her to get that job. And I just feel like I made it happen and didn't even understand at the time that I was doing something that was worthwhile. I was just like, I was kind of like bitchy, basically. Yeah, I was not to her. But to my poor family. Yeah. But there is such a mystery to things and why we're called to things and how we're used in a good way. Absolutely. And that's another thing with this work. I mean, I, you know, I'm a firm believer that when you're on your path, and you can say, you know, on God's path on spirit's path, whatever, whatever terminology, whoever you believe, whatever, but when, when, when you're on your path. things in life, just kind of fall into place. It doesn't mean that you I mean, you still have to take action and you there are still things that you have to do. But it becomes it you're not beating your head against the wall, you're not spending hours up at at at night thinking, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? How am I going to make this work? Blah, blah, blah. It just seems to somehow happen. Yeah. And that's exactly what has happened with the estranged heart. Like I said, I went into this, my, we just had my one year anniversary of the podcast on Halloween. And I checked today before our interview, and I I have over 25,000 downloads. Oh my gosh, that's so great. In my first year, and I'm like a deletion. Yeah, it was nothing like yeah, I could have never I have I don't have any paid advertisers. I don't have what, you know, in this. Like, I when I started the podcast, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to get the microphone and this and that. And the other thing. And I finally was just like, Ah, I sat down, picked up my iPhone, downloaded the app, and hit record. And that was it. That was it. Like, one thing I loved about Kathy Heller's course it sounds like something she would say. She would just say, Oh, I take pictures with my iPhone, or I just hit record and start talking and do it messy, you know, jump in and do it. And then you're more likely to just be really who you are. Right? And rather than over planning and being a student, yeah. What impressed with you as you trust this process? I do. But I don't know that it's, I have to say, I don't know that. It's a conscious trust. And I'm sometimes a lot of times in life, I'm flying by the seat of my pants. But I'm there's also a piece of me, that's just like, I know where my where my limitations are like, I know tech is not my thing. Like I just, it's just not my thing. I can't wrap my head around it. I, you know, my day job, I tell my boss, she's always working up spreadsheets and stuff. And she lives with numbers. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I'm like, You talk numbers. I speak humans, like, I don't know how to talk your language, right? My language is very different. And so, but that is the thing that people really liked about my podcast, that when I got feedback, was that people could hear my dogs in the background, you know, they could hear them their tags, tingling and scratching. And they're like, You're real. Like, you're your real. That's so true creed. They're in the room with you. Yeah. And you're talking to them? Yeah. Because they say it works best when you're talking to one person. Mm hmm. You know, and I'm sure my friend will get a kick out of this. But I often talk to my friend Kim snow in my head, because I've known her forever. And we always had amazing conversations. So I talked to her. But it works best when you're focused on just talking. And when you're natural, and you're all those things. I just feel like so much in your life led up to this. And you didn't even know it. Like it's just all led up to this. It's like when people write a book about you, that's what they'll say. They'll say, when you write your own book, yeah, you'll figure it out. You know, you'll say like, oh, I realize now, all these things. This, this was my path that was leading to my path. And I don't feel like I've realized my path yet, but I do have those moments like you're talking about I do have those moments of just totally doing something for pure joy. Yeah, for the podcasts. And I could do it for 8 million years, and I don't resent it at all. And I have a full time job and I want to do it at night. You know, just that, that love of connecting, and just feeling like you're putting something out there that you that you want to connect. And that's, you know, that's why I write and writing does that it's great. I think it was time to find literally my voice. And I feel like with your voice, like, I feel like you could have done this in a lot of different ways. But I think presenting yourself your real self and hearing your voice. I just I love how intimate podcasts are. You know, it's just so amazing to me that they exist. Somebody was really confused about it one of my friends and she's like, well, when do I tune in to hear you? And I said, Well, it's not radio. Yeah, it'll just sit there. The episodes will just sit there for you. And she's like, oh, and I said, don't worry about it. You can you know, you can tune in anytime you want. And you can always listen anywhere you want. But I said it is like personal broadcasting. It really is. It's like we have a studio in our bedroom. Yeah, I'm sitting at my desk in my bedroom. And you know, thank God for zoom. Right? Remember when Kathy was teaching us all this stuff? And some of the stuff she had that tech person, and she was showing us stuff? And I was like what? Kathy said one wonderful thing. She goes, somebody said, Well, what do you use to record and I was like, oh, no, another complex? Right? Because I'm really good with tech. But it's the tech that I use in big companies. Yeah, yeah. So this is new to me. I move around probably a little easier than some people but still new, I still have to learn it. And I remember she said, Oh, well just use Zoom. And I was like, this woman makes megamillions. And she uses zoom. I'm so happy. Zoom records it for you. And you just use audio. And I was like, I'm in heaven. One thing? That's kind of easy. Yes, absolutely. Totally. I really wanted to ask you if somebody's do things, okay, if somebody is a strange if they're living in that? What's one thing you wish they knew, besides the you're not alone? Because that's a huge thing. You feel like you're the only one on the planet? That's a shame does. Yeah, it isolates you. Yeah, I didn't know that I was certain that I was the only horrific parent out there. Right that, you know, that kind of thing is. And second, the other thing that I would want them to know is as difficult as this is, there is something in it for you. That's difficult to grasp, at first, very difficult. Especially when you're newly estranged, and you're in the throes of it, it's really hard to see that there's something for you. But as someone who's been through it once with my kids, and several times as an estranged adult child. And I've come out on the other side, I can assure you very powerful. The only thing I can relate to a little bit is that I lost my mom kind of young, you know, about 20 Was it 21 years ago, and very suddenly, and the grief that hit me, my children were still little, and it was really, really tough. And it reminds me, I can relate a little bit because of, you know, people would say, you know, you'll make your way through, you'll never get over it. But you'll learn to live with it. And I'm like, I'll never learn to live with this. And it was just not that everybody's grief isn't hard. But I've you know, I've lost lots of other people since her. And it's always been hard, but it's never been like when I lost her. And I always say I'm, I make a joke out of it, because that's what I do. I'm a type A personality. So I didn't just have grief, I had complicated grief. I agree for so long, it became depression mixed with grief. Right? And I did a couple episodes on it. But I felt too, like you were saying I felt I feel years later that I went to a therapist, and I had lots of good help. And I worked through it. I feel like I can help other people now, in a way that is very powerful. People say when I write about grief, they just cling to it. And people say when I talk about it, they just take it in and I feel like you're describing something similar, as painful as it is. It's a chance to make your way through something that will leave you changed. And then on the other end, possibly being able to help others and that's so powerful. And so my other question was, if I know someone who's experiencing a strange man, what can I say to them? That would be helpful. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Listen, that's the first thing that comes to mind is because because it's so isolating, if someone is reaching out and telling you about it, they there is a level of trust somewhere in that and and please, please don't violate that trust with them. Allow them to talk about it. In Even if you don't know what to say, simply simply holding that space for them and allowing them to share what's on their heart and their feelings. And to say to them, I hear your pain, I hear your pain. Don't try to take it away from them. Don't try to tell them you'll fix it. Don't try to tell them tomorrow will be better. Don't any of those. Just sit with them? Just be in it. Be in it with them? I gave the same advice to people who are grieving. I think it's similar. I think it's such good advice. I think we were taught to like, talk it. When I went to therapy back then it changed how I dealt with my kids and their tears. Definitely, because she identified this like, heavy thing that I did. And I think a lot of us do it, where I just stuffed a stuffed stuffed it down, you know, and being very sensitive. There was a lot of stuff. But I wanted, I would rather be strong. So I would get pissed. And I would stuff it down. But she said you know you can't. She was very gentle too. I loved how she talked to me. And she said, you know that you can't do that forever. It doesn't go away. You have to deal with it someday. Exactly. And I remember, she just encourage me it was such a simple message. But I think it's really important for people to hear sometimes it and I'm sure people who are in estrangement feel this way, like you, you feel like it will never end and you can't even feel it because it will just never end like you'll never stop crying. Like it's just too deep. And you can't even go there. But with the therapist said no matter what you have to feel it. And it will it will ebb. You have to have faith. It's like walking through, you know, I always pictured a tunnel, you know, and she said, you just have to keep walking. Yeah, and you will reach the light, you will not that everything will be perfect. But you will move through these feelings. Exactly. There's no other way but to feel them. So I can I came home and I decided I think the kids were like, by then six and four. And I just decided like when they cry, I had heard this thing where you don't break the hug, you let them break the hook. And that's what I did. From then on. That's what I did. It was such a simple thing. And I noticed I'm gonna start crying because I noticed they hold the hug so much longer than we do. Because we're always in a hurry and thinking of dinner. And the next thing we have to do, they don't have those stresses, they will hold that hug for a really long time. And so I felt like that therapist just gave me this gift that I can give to my children. And I didn't shush them anymore. I didn't rush them. I let them cry. I wasn't perfect, but I tweaked what I was doing. And I was able to give them that gift from my therapist. And I remember that sadness. I remember feeling I had never felt that sad in my life. I said I didn't. I wrote I didn't know you could be this sad and still live. Yeah, I think that's so scary for people when they're going through these terrible things. That Goddamnit you wake up and you're still alive. Yep. And I think working for people right? There. It's shocking. And on the other side of that they're they're like, this is going to take me under like it like they feel like they can't like literally cannot breathe. Because the pain is so intense. And I you describe a tunnel. I referenced this back to labor and birth. I'm like, so very much so right. So you're in labor, and you're like, you know, because there there comes a point in time where most of us in labor were like, Okay, I'm done. I'm out. Like, that's such a great way of saying or I don't want no, we're not gonna do this, we thought we would do this. But we have to keep going. We have to We can't tastic analogy can't stop. And you have to give birth to the new, bright, whatever that is. And it's painful. And it hurts and you feel like it, it's going to rip you apart and you can't you're just not going to make it and all of these things. And then on the other side is this you know, at first there's this exhaustion, this relief of Okay, now it's over. And then you've got to figure out this new way of being in the world. Right? Right, with this new baby or this new thing and you're in your world. And so, yeah, so when when I usually use that analogy, people are like, ah, like, it's such a great analogy. Yeah. And it works on so many levels. So I felt like when I finally came out on the other side that I was, I was still sad. I was still, you know, carrying my mother's memory. It was still tough, but I was deeper. You know, I had like this depth to me that I never had before. And the crazy thing that happened, I would meet people everywhere. That would talk to me about their grief. We were like a secret society, right? Because people don't know what to say you know, and They don't talk about it that much, because they don't know what to say. And I would just mention a little something to the cashier, for example, and she would tell me her story. And I just felt such a communion with people. I felt like I came back to the world that we're living and I was connecting on that level. Yeah. There's, there's gifts out what if you allow the grief because there's a lot of grief and estrangement. If you allow the grief to, in, in essence, take you under if you allow it, to do what it's meant to do, it will transform you into something that you don't recognize, however, you come out thinking, Oh, my gosh, I'm this, I'm this, you feel like a newly born baby, like there's this newness, this freshness about you. And for me, I came through this with this whole new perspective on life, as if you know, a new baby comes into this world not knowing anything about anything. And that's kind of how I felt like, you know, really exploring this whole new world that I found myself in and really learning how to talk like I work a lot with parents on communication, and how to talk. It's almost a new language. We go through all of these steps, like you have to crawl before you can walk. And, you know, there's so many great analogy. Yeah, it makes so much sense. Yeah, it's, you're reborn in every way. Exactly. Absolutely. And it's so great that you teach people that it is something as horrible as it feels, it's something that you can move through. Yeah, you know, all of these things are and we're, and we're not taught that I think especially, you know, I'm I'm older and the way I was raised was just like, you know, these German grandmas that just toughed it out. Nobody ever had anything wrong with them. Everybody was working in sweeping the floor, and everything was fine. And oh my god. I talked about it on my podcast a little bit. Like, I only remember that people would have like nervous breakdowns, like they would wait so long and they would be depressed for so long or anxious for so long. And never, you know, no one went to therapy. We were lower middle class, you know, at least my grandma's were. And nobody therapy. What the hell was that? Right. Right. Right was like, you know, it's like going away to camp. Nobody did. So literally, people would unloving it's not funny, but I mean, people literally would just keep on going until they cracked. Exactly. It was so sad, you know. And we were told to always stuffed down anything. You know, stuff down your pain stuff down your morning was supposed to happen in a year. That's what always cracked me up. Like, you know, it's been a year, come on Chop, chop, ya know, and I remember even somebody in my family said that to me, and I was like, Well, it's been two years, and I'm still sad as hell. So there you go. Exception to your rule. Like, yes, yeah. Your own time. tablecurve. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, it's I I'm not the very first thing I hear from moms is when I meet with them, and they inevitably start crying. And the very first thing they say is, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no apologies. Here. Tears are always always always walking home. Always. And I do that in my day job. I do that and you know, I have anytime I encounter anyone who is feels awkward and crying or expresses, you know, I'm sorry for crying. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, please cry, I need you to cry. I need you to let that stuff out. It needs to come out and cleanse your your tears have a purpose. There's a purpose for them. Yeah, that's very powerful. So now I have a question for you. How do you keep doing this? Like, what do you do to renew yourself or to relax or to de stress? How do you handle this? Because you do something similar during your day job, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm a big reader. And because of a mutual friend of ours, he has suggested that I pencil myself in on my own calendar, you know, excellent. Yes. Yeah. What a great idea. And yeah, so you're starting the stream every Sunday morning is my time when I don't, I don't take appointments. It's my it's my time to do whatever it is I spend time with my grandbabies. And that helps to bring me back to what I call bring it brings me back to you know, it grounds me good because they're, you know, they're so innocent and so joyful. And so, you know, full of exploration and wonder about the world and so I look at things through their eyes and I'm just like okay, now my cups been refilled and I can go so smart. It's so healing to be around little kids. I love it like you and dogs you have a greyhound all you have to greyhounds have to Greyhound and I have a greyhound and I just Find I find being around him so soothing. Yes. You know, he's just first of all, I've never seen a dog sleep as deeply as he does like, as often, like, there's something about them. They just, they just crash. And it's, and that's relaxing for you to be around. And their soft little muscles. You know, I'm always like, I'm, I must pet him like 90 times a day. And I feel like it's so good for us. Yeah, absolutely. Really good for us. We actually went on a Greyhound event yesterday. And it was a ghost walk in Flemington New Jersey, where I don't know if you know, but the Lindbergh trial part of the Lindbergh trial was held. And so there's ghosts in the courthouse. There's ghosts, you know, all throughout. There's a lot of older houses. So this was a fundraiser for the Greyhounds. And you could bring one Greyhound, I think he said, one needle nose is the guy that runs it. And I love these things. Because, first of all, it's really interesting and you get a nice walk. But I love seeing my dog with other dogs. And I love how they love each other. It's yeah. And they had two little Whippets you know, the smaller ones? Yep. I was like, Can I just hug every dog? But I think the you know, having a pet is so important, especially with the work that you do having two pets. Two pets. Yes, they, they. They ground me they remind me to be in the moment. Yeah, and to not get, you know, way off out there somewhere. And worrying about things that I you know, just being right in the moment is a huge thing for me. So, and they do that very well. Yeah, they're both right. I just, I just love that breed. I really, I fell in love with them. i They are my they are my dog. But I was always a cat person until I found that to have this dog. We had to sign a contract that said we wouldn't have cats. Yes. Any small animals or have small children around so and he's been pretty good. Except, well, there was that one squirrel. Before I was before the squirrels got smarter about how fast he could run anyway. There was that one rabbit on ours. Yeah, that's what they're I mean, they're trying to do that. And they're very good at it. So is there anything else you would like us to know? I think that's I think that's all i This has been a lovely, lovely conversation. Thank you, Lynne. I really, you know, I'm just such a fan of yours, I can barely hide it. I love what you're doing. And I love who you are. And I love how you explain it for us. So we can, I mean, we don't understand it. And now we have a feel for it a little bit more of a feel for it. And we can be what I really love is that we can be more. I mean, I want people to listen to your podcasts for sure. But if we go about our lives, and we run into this, we can be more understanding and know that they're on a journey, and it's very difficult. So I thank you for that. And your time, I know you're busy. And you gave me a like a whole hour. It's like fantastic. So you would just want to mention again that you can find creed revere on the estranged heart podcast, and it's wherever you find your podcasts, and I'll put the link in my show notes. And is there anything else you would like to recommend? I'll put your website in there. Yeah, no, I think that's all like 2023 There will be a book coming to 23 there will be what will that be about? At that it's going to be my memoir of my estrangement story in Germany. So yeah. tastic and so even more people will be touched in the learn. That's so good. That makes so much sense. All right, you. I'll see you Wednesday. Sounds great. Thanks for meeting right we have to it absolutely. Me too. Thank you Here