Season 2: Episode 5. Speaking with Scientist Patty Martin: Practical ways we can be more sustainable (Climate Change brought down to size)

Hello, and welcome to the Storied Human. I'm Lynne Thompson. And today I have the pleasure of interviewing a friend, Patty Martin, she and I read a podcasting course together, and we stuck it out with another friend. We do something called a pod squad meeting every week, I've gotten to know her pretty well, I've had so much fun learning about the two of them and what they do. And it's sort of kept me on course, I have to say, I'm not sure I would have stuck with it in the same way without them.So, Patty's pretty cool. She runs a podcast called the disobedient scientist podcast,which is so fun to listen to, I definitely recommend it. And since 2020, she's ventured out and has her own business. She's a bit of a climate coach. She identifies as an artist and a disrupter. And she's definitely an entrepreneur, helping people understand how they can make sustainable changes. She uses her scientific background and her creativity, to help small businesses do that, to understand how it comes down to their level, what they can do at their level. I really love how she makes all this big stuff personal. And I love what I've learned from her so far. And I'm hoping that we learn more as we find out what she's about, and how we can make a difference. I really love that you're involved in that Patty, I really admire you. So welcome, Patty.Ah, thank you, Lynn so much for having me. I think I'm gonna have to steal your intro of me because it was so flattering.And I love the way you framed some of it what I do, I have hadn't thought of it. And then what you just said, but I'm so honored to be here and to that you wanted to have me on on your show.Patti, I woke up excited this morning. I was like today's party's interview. It's just like, you're doing a lot of cool work. And I love hearing about it. And I think sharing it with people is like, you know, a public service announcement almost. I really do.Yeah, you know, I just heard a,I read a line the other day that someone said that speaking, like public speaking isn't about attention. It's a public service. And I think that goes so online with this, the more we speak about it, I think the bigger it becomes in our lives.I think that's so important. I think having a podcast is like a public service. I really do. And I love that broadcasting has become so excuse me, so accessible for people like that's my biggest shock was how quickly you can have your own little broadcast called podcasting. You know, like, we can just start getting our message out there. So what kinds of I would love to hear how you started, like, you know, a little bit about your background? What you think is relevant? Yeah, question. I know, I know.It's always hard to distill this down. So it's like a 45 minute answer. You don't have to. Um,well, so I think like a lot of people in this space, I wasn't always in it. I grew up very much connected to nature. My parents were at grew up in Northern California, actually on the inset ancestral lands of the white lackey. And I currently run my business on the lands of the Northern Pomo just to give some acknowledgement there. But I grew up like my parents were hippies were very much like back to the landers. I lived in a tent for seven years, I, I very much was connected to nature.And I think because of a lot of different reasons, I am just being young and rebellious, I pretty much dismissed everything I was given as a child. So my goal was to I wanted to be a lawyer, and then I wanted to be a doctor. And somewhere in there, I ended up on scientist and I went into biomedical research. And I did that for the first 30 years of my life. And when there was just a point in my when I was getting my PhD that I realized I was very, very lost and disconnected to myself.I didn't know who I was, I had no idea what my purpose was. It was very paying In full place,and I think that was the turning point for me, and coming into being an entrepreneur, and really trying to work in the climate solution space.And that fit you, you realize that fit you much better.Yeah, I think it was actually a gradual fit, it still is a gradual fit. I don't know if I will ever fully know who it is I am. And I've stopped trying to really find that.But it's a journey. I think it's an ongoing, I think that's so honest and cool that you say that because I think some young people are surprised when I still say I'm trying to find out who I am. But I think we just are ever evolving. And we add,you know, we accrete information. And things look differently through those filters. And we just keep going.And I love that you acknowledge that. And that you're, that's one thing I love when I talk to you, is that how open you are and how you take people's ideas,and really like percolate them.And I think that's the secret to being sort of inspiring to others, is you inspire them to be that way. That's just my take, I really think that's a great way to look at things.When I'm also I'm so impressed like you were raised with those cycles of nature in a way that most of us don't connect with.So it almost it's almost like you came back to that a little bit. You reconnected,yes, I feel really privileged in that I have been able to really reconnect that it hasn't. I think there's different journeys for different people. But in some ways, I think I always knew what it felt like to be in alignment, and fully authentic with myself, if I have to describe my early childhood.That would be how I would describe it is I was in alignment, I was authentic. I was in flow, and you know,somewhere with trauma and life experiences and all of that,right, like you get out of whack. You and I 100% began to dissociate and disconnect from myself because of just life experiences. And so coming back to that, like I always had that Northstar to really come back to what that feeling felt like for me,that's very powerful for me, and also just the healing nature of being that close to the Earth and the cycles of you know, just you lived it. In that you were a lot of us are raised disconnected from that at least people my age, you know, we I wasn't because my father was a woodsmen. It's like, you know,he was just obsessed. So I feel so lucky. Because that was injected into my childhood, and we were taught, we lived it.Yeah, we were taught all kinds of things and about the cycles of nature. And we my father, you know, when we when he finally could I think I was like 11 When we finally had room, and the wherewithal to get a horse like that was his thing. And just we were surrounded by animals. And I feel so lucky that we were raised in that way. Because that's like my North Star definitely, like I've come back to that in a big way. And just that healing of looking at the trees and being in the forest.And I don't think a lot of people were raised that way, you know?No, I don't think so either. But I also think it's not inaccessible, either. No, I think once people get a taste of it, I see it all over the internet.Now it's so wonderful to see people, you know, getting a taste of it, like I sit outside,I you know, I love the trees, I go to the beach. And just what I really like is seeing the science backed explanation of why these things make you feel good. You know, there's ions and sea air, and there's wonderful,you know, stress relieving properties of being around trees. And so people, even skeptical people or people that didn't connect with nature, they can be assured that there's data behind it.Yeah. There's actually some really fascinating data behind different ways we connect with nature and how it triggers all of our feel good hormones. One study I was just learning about was around this process called forest bathing. Yeah, you like go barefoot and you walk very,very slowly through a just like a natural landscape. And there's all this psychology around how it It changes the way we feel.It changes the way the way we function. It changes people's actual physiology and their their posture. Like there's all these benefits of walking barefoot that is science based and it's Yeah, but But I also like I think to get back, what two points, right? Like, I think that it's so easy. And this is what I really coach a lot of people on is connecting with nature is so easy, you don't have to do it like anyone who has gone and seen the ocean or stood under a redwood tree or or whatever it is, right? Like there's so much Majesty in nature, that it's very easy to see how it's not the science tippet thing that we're experiencing, it's a spiritual thing. It's a way we connect with our spirit and ourselves.And I think that's a universal feeling that all of us can notice, if you've experienced it before or not. It's right there at our fingertips, it allows us to really ground and connect the second you put yourself out there. And so I want to say it's super easy to go and do. It's probably one of the easiest ways to find yourself, it was the easiest way I found myself was just going on nature walks. But also, you know, like, we also don't need as much as I love science, right? Like, I think there's so much beauty in the mystery, and magic of things we can't explain and understand.And you know, if it feels good,it feels good, right? We don't have to have like know that dopamine flowing or, you know,serotonin or like, whatever it is right? Like, like, if it works, it works, right? Like,that's a good symbol. You've explained it or not already through it.I just think you went over some of the, you know, the hardcore,disconnected people. Give it a try. It'll it'll increase your dopamine. But you're right, it's right there.Yeah, like an interesting question, though. Like, I have a lot of theories as a scientist,who has been in two different spaces. So I've been in the biomedical space, and I have a PhD in infection, and disease in immunology. And so I've had experience talking to people about diseases. And I've had experience talking to people about climate change. And the people who have the most resistance. Science doesn't win them over. Like I want so badly,really good point, oh, my gosh,for it to be true, right? Like,because because I have the science, I can sit here and show you and explain to you in detail, what you know, people's life's work that show that this is the case. But the truth is,is science isn't a motivator for change. It's what you're doing when, right. It's the storytelling and the human connection that actually gets people to change. It's like,it's the, the story you heard from the dude at the barbecue in2012, that you still remember to this day that pops into your head right around, you know,some something to do with like nature or whatever. Like that's how our brains work is we connect with humans and stories,and that's what changes us.That is very powerful. That's how you learn the best. Yeah,that's how you learn the best is when it's couched in a story.So, so you've expanded that and made made it sort of your, your life's journey right now, to connect people in a more personal way that they are connected personally, to climate change that they can connect,that they can not just learn the science, but understand personally, how they're connected and related. Yeah, I didn't Triggs me a lot. Yeah,like,I think that's my goal is for the, you know, if I could wave my magic wand, that's what I want people to do is go from this place of disconnection to,you know, reconnection? Like when I think about climate change, there's there's three really big problems. I think,that umbrella, this whole scenario that we're facing as a species as a world, right, it's that we have a rapid and uncontrolled release of emissions caused by the burning of fossil fuels. That has changed our world to the point where we can't put the cat back in the bag. We are now being forced to adapt, we have to adapt in order to survive, the species that can are going to survive the ones that cannot will not. That is our reality.And the third problem Is that we have to change our behavior in order to adapt as humans. And what gives me a lot of hope is the science is there between the science and indigenous knowledge, we can solve our emissions problems and our adaptation problems, right? Like we have it like that's in the bad like, like, we no longer we need scientists and entrepreneurs and people to develop. But we no longer really need, like extensive revolutionary science to solve this problem. We need people to come along with the solutions already there.And I like that it.And so that's what I'm really trying to focus on is how do we get people to come along and change especially when change is so scary? And we're looking at a future that we don't have? Any understanding what it's gonna look like, right? How do we get there? And, you know, when I talk about disconnection, that's that's the, I think, the root problem that I see in this, it comes up in other ways, though,right? Like, I think that there's a lot of overwhelm. When we talk about climate solutions,there's a lot of disempowerment,it's very easy to sit to say,Okay, what do I do? And then get into a place of like, I have no,like, how am I going to change?You know, Amazon's practices or big, right? Yeah, it's so big,and you feel so small, it's very disempowering. The ways in which we talk about this. It's scary,there's a lot of anxiety, and all of those things, there's a lot of shame, we use a lot of shame language, when we talk about climate change and our behavior in it. And all of those things lead us like what we know on the short term is like fear and shame, can cause immediate reaction, right? Like they are,we use them evolutionarily to like, you know, we see a bear charging at us, we freaking run away from the bear, right? Like,that's what fear does to us,right? Like we see someone who's doing something, a behavior we really don't want, we use shame to stop it right then and there.Over a long periods of time,months, years, decades, 170years, since we first learned about what Climate The climate science around this, what that does is it has it, we no longer are responding to that we have shut down and turned off.Because over long periods of time, we can't, we can't always be running away from the bear over 10 years. Right. And so that's, that's really where why we're so disconnected is that there's no ability to sustain the feelings that we have around this. And so that's really what I've tried to work on is how do we reframe this and empower ourselves?I love that. And I love how you route it in, you know, human psychological responses, because you can't live like that. So you burn out or you just disconnect?Yep, that's very important. Part of what you've identified is how to help people through that.Because people do care. You know, like I always say, if you make it, this is my big thing.If you make it easy, and I say this all the time, if you make it easy for someone to do the right thing, and I don't mean baby them, but make it easy,clear the path, they will do it,they will do it 90% Of the people will do the right thing.Absolutely. Like, I mean, the new stats out there, polling shows that nine out of 10 people believe that the climate is changing in the world, right.And most of them care to some extent about what that's going to do for us as a species. But75% of people don't know what to do about it. Right. Nobody knows what to do. That's scary, right?Yeah, yeah. And when you don't know what to do, okay, then I'm just going to continue on doing what it is. I've always been doing. I do think that and this is the place I try to really lead by example. And it's a complicated place like and I recognize why people don't do it. I agree with you. I think a lot every I think that we all have feelings of wanting to do more and caring more about what this is. It's very overwhelming.There's, there's all these disconnection factors that lead to us not. And I've been there,right like I was. When I was in New York before I decided to actually the reason one of the reasons why I completely pivoted my career into this space, it was As towards the end of my PhD, I had just actually gotten permission to defend my thesis.I was like writing this Hi. And I was in an elevator and midtown Manhattan, like, and it was very fancy, they had like a noose, a TV on the wall that was playing the news, right? In the elevator and I'm, I'm there like 20 other people, and it's quiet, and we're going down like 16 floors.And it was talking about these fires that were happening in Australia, and how like 2000species had just been eliminated overnight, including, like, over90% of the koala population in Australia. And I'm sitting there, it was, like, this great moment in my career and in my life, and I'm thinking about where I'm going, you know, in this next chapter, and I had this thought of like, why aren't people thinking about this? Why aren't we doing more somebody needs to be doing wrong. And,but but it wasn't me, right? I was. Yeah, it was like, Okay,I'm here trying to solve disease, some, it's somebody else's responsibility to be solving this climate crisis.And, like something about that thought really stuck with me.And like, I like over months and months, I was like, Wait, that's what everybody's saying, right,is that we're all busy working hard solving our problems in our life, and it's somebody else's problem to be solving this. And I finally realized, like, no,like, this has to be me write this and it has it does. It has to be all of us. We have to,like, that's the scary and hard part is saying, Okay, I don't know the answers to this are the solutions. It's gonna be messy.I'm gonna be wrong. But let's,let's start. Let's get going.Right, like, let's be wrong, and then pivot from there. Because right now that inaction that's the that's the wrong way,killing us. Right. Yeah. So I think you see it so clearly, and I see great potential for what you're doing. You can you can bring it down to size for people, you can educate people,and you can set them on the path like, there is something you can do, you know, there is a way you can live. And to me, that's,again, a huge public service. It really is. Because we are we're all kind of like doing a little bit you don't know, if we're doing enough, we, it seems too big. It definitely seems too big. Yeah. And I come from a little bit different. I mean, my husband's like, way ahead of the curve. Like he was concerned in the 80s. He was like minoring,in environmental science. He was like recycling. When I met him.It was really weird. People were like, You're what? And I'm like,Yeah, we recycle. And we had those weird light bulbs. And now I'm just so grateful to him,because he put us on that path.And I was pretty out of it, you know, but it just seemed normal to me, by the time people were starting to bitch about it, but it's not enough, you know, to just do those things. And you have to change your whole, like,my friends ran big green fest for several years. And I help them with those. And they always said, people forget the first couple, you know, it's reduce,reuse, recycle. It's not just recycle. And Reduce Reuse implies a different like, like,we talked before I started recording about you going to thrift shops. And you know, and I liked that too. And when the kids were little, especially to save money, and just the idea that these clothes are perfectly good, or this furnitures perfectly good. You change your lifestyle, like those two things to Reduce Reuse. It's more of a lifestyle change.It is. And, you know, there's two I actually have, I don't know, I know where I stand on this personally. And but also where I talk to other people about this because I think it's very hard to take make people change lifestyle, make lifestyle change. It's huge. Yeah.expecially when we're talking about taking away something like Oh, yeah, like, that's, that's really difficult. And so it's not where I start, like, there are a lot of things to do. And I don't start with making the reduce side of things, right.Like, it's better than what Yeah, that's probably better. Yeah. Well, and it's but because it's so much I think of the dialogue has around climate solutions that we can do has been that like, yeah, you know, I think about my whole life. I've like my mom, like, we never had a dryer in my life.Right? Like, please like, why?We can't have this because it's burning fossil fuels and leading to our planet warming. And like I was told that as a kid, but the second I went out and got like my own apartment, right? I went and I got a dryer, right?Because it's so convenient. To close often. It's all of these things and I have have since gone back to not using it. But like human, like we don't want to get rid of the stuff that makes our lives convenient and easy. And so that's, I would say, where there's two things that I would recommend starting with, that are impactful. And one is talking, it is probably the most important thing you can do regarding the climate is talking about climate change,and specifically in an unchanging, non negative way.Because you know, and I do recognize that that's pretty hard to do, because so much of what we've been taught through the media and through just dialogue that we hear around climate change, and climate science and solutions is negative and shaming, but we need to get everybody on board that is in thinking about solutions in different ways. And so that's the one thing I recommend is not to recycle,because 96% of recycling actually ends up in landfills anyway, right now,I heard that that's terrible.It's definitely a really high number. I don't know if it's actually 96. I want to say it is but it's high.But it's high. Yeah. So how do you recommend talking about it?With people? Yeah,I recommend you go and find an inspiring story. And talk to people about that. Right, like,and so what I went, how I started in this space, is I got on like a climate tech newsletter that was would show all these jobs. And from all these startup companies that were happening, and I would like read about the startups and I found so much inspiration about people in the solutions are coming up with Oh, that's so cool. And so like, I'll give you a few examples. Good. There's a company out there that is, so they're now selling agricultural food. So like food that you feed cows, but they figured out that if you give cow's seaweed, feed them seed seaweed, they produce80%, less methane, just by changing I think the microbiome and their their guts, right. And so now there's a company out there doing that, I love that there's a company out there that has figured a way to plant coral at 60 times the rate that most other people can do, right? Some reason. And you can actually go and adopt a coral as well. And that makes a really great present. If you have like a kid,or going into the holidays,that's going to be one of my things that I'm going to give to people is I'm going to adopt corals for them.I love that. Can we put that in my show notes? Could you give me Yeah,I will.we had a few local companies that inspired me. One is I forget the name, they're very close by where they'll come and clear your lumber. And they'll,they'll build something for you from it. So they'll just sort of, if you have a tree that you need to get rid of, or you're afraid it's, you know, it's dead, they'll clear it for you.And they'll build something for you like furniture or a deck so that you have your own wood removed from your own. I just love that, you know, like thinking like more locally and how to do that. And oh my gosh,adopt a coral. Most kids would adore that as a present. Yeah,that was something on CBS Sunday Morning about people I think it was CVS, and maybe it was 60minutes, about speeding up the growth of coral about, you know,building coral fields and really addressing that, so that we don't have that inevitable decline. But I think hearing people's creative solutions is the best way to inspire us.Yeah, I think you're right,that that's right. And it's, you know, it's something that you can, like, anytime I'm at a gas station, or at a coffee shop, I try to like just be like, in line as I'm waiting. I talk a lot of people but that's like,that's my goal is to just tell somebody something that gets them thinking in a different way that maybe they'll go and look up, right? Or, you know, think about like, like, I always use that adopt the coral example because then they can go and think about it for their kids or, or whatever it is. And, you know, there's solutions out there. Like for example, there's a company right now that it creates, instead of like, paper disposable coffee cups, they go and they have like a system where you can get like ceramic cups at coffee shops to go and then you just drop them have drop off locations at other coffee shops. Like it's like this whole process. Like when I'm at a coffee shop, I tell the clerk at when I'm checking out like hey, did you know you can do this? And somewhere in there,you know people remember Number,and it might not be in that second, but it comes up later.And so, you know, it's bringing in the solutions or like, or,you know, I talk about composting all the time, because our food waste is probably one of the important things we need to be reducing. Yeah, you know,like, things like that, that we can slowly just build on. And that's what we need. And that's what it's not recycling, it's not using less of the plastic straws, like if you do it great.But I don't want people to tap out like that the problem with the solutions that are out there right now is we only have a certain capacity, we have like two or three solutions,currently, right now that we will just do and then everything else is either beyond our budget as humans or like beyond our time that we can allocate to it.And so if you're gonna be spending time doing something, I don't want it to be something that isn't impactful. I want you to be going after the most impactful things, and talking with people about it and continually to talk about it.The most impactful thing.And I love that too, because you just should talk to people more anyway, you should relate to people and, and have your social network and get around and really share. I also thought about like little things I see popping up like you can rent,you can rent dresses, and you can rent formal wear, and you can rent clothes, like that never used to exist. I don't I mean, except for tuxes, I don't remember that. And I thought that's anything that doesn't make you make new, you know,fire up machines and burn fuel and make new clothes is great.So there's like a lot of little solutions that I see sort of seeping into the every day that are fantastic. Yes,that's correct. There. And, and like this recyclable fashion,it's a really fun area to write like, you get some really cool things. And also, just like, you know, like I do, a lot of I actually have been starting to learn how to sew my own clothes,not because I want to make everything from scratch, but like the clothes that I do find that I love, I can add my own little flavor to it. That is has been really fun. That's the artist and you do that. Yeah, I just bought a sewing machine. I want to get back to sewing. Even if it's just pillows or like, there's these pajamas I love and I'm like, I was looking at them one day, and I'm like, I can make this I used to sell elastic waistband, or I used to sew soft, you know, shirts with,like a crewneck collar. It's not a big deal. Yeah. And it is it's very, you can be creative, then you can add your own touches.And people can say, Oh, I liked that. Where'd you get it? And you could say I made, which is another great way to sort of inspire people like I made this,you know, remember, remember,like I had home at class. And my mother also taught me to sew. So why did I give that up? It's very fulfilling. And it's also kind of cool, and cheaper. But it can be not cheaper. But anyway,it can't. But very satisfying to make your own?I think so I think so, in the way that baking is and cooking is I really love that same feeling. And, um, and I was gonna say I'm really proud in our house, I think there's like two pieces of furniture that are new, maybe three.Yeah, expecially. There's a huge used and loved furniture. Like you can find some really great pieces you definitely don't have to buy.And a lot of them were we didn't pay for they were passed down from the family, which I know a lot of people don't. I don't know, I just love old furniture.So anyway, but that's all those things help, like living that way helps and makes you especially the sewing and baking and things make you feel better like to have an outlet like that. So you said you talk about climate it? Was there a second thing?Yeah, um, well, maybe there's two more things. The thing, one of the things that I would just plug is in the next six to nine months, there are going to be depending on your household income, and whether you rent or buy, there's going to be around$20,000 in incentives and grants to start upgrading your house coming from the inflation Reduction Act. And so that's definitely something I'll also put maybe this is also the link in the show notes. Oh, great that I can drop but there's a really great calculator that shows homeowners and renters what they can go and buy where they can get the money from and how much it's going to be for like heat pumps and like upgrading your materials. So like getting double pane windows, getting solar, those types of things that's gonna stick down. Yeah, and that you know, it's going to be more It's cheaper than it's ever been. So and that fits my whole thing,like just make it a little easier, people will do the right things, they will incentivize.And, and you'll save money. Like a lot of these things. Even if you have to take a loan out which they're developing, like low interest loans, or some of these things, you'll have paid it off in the time, like in a year's time, like that's the whole idea is that like, the amount of money that would have gone into it from like electricity, or, like, different fuel costs, get paid off. For these I was talking to a couple people in, in the political group I'm in and the one woman I don't know how long they've had solar,but they pay the cell back. So that's really cool. And they pay$3.75 a month.Yep. That's, it's pretty amazing. Pretty amazing is right? And when you can have your heating hooked up to that,and your transportation, that becomes even more amazing.Yeah, talking about off the grid. Yeah,like, like, you become very,definitely your the expenses you see currently, right now go down with that. You have to invest in infrastructure, but including like, like the home charging stations, if you have, you know,all you have to do is plug it into your wall for like an electric vehicle. But you have to purchase the electric vehicle. Yeah. But it's great.Super, there's gonna be so many options, you just have to like,then it's just up to you to go after but they're there. They're actually So yeah, that's a wonderful point. Somebody was just talking to me, their, their, their husband sell solar, and he was talking to me about the great deals like, I mean, they really want you to, you know, to move towards that. Yeah.And right now, like, it depends on what state you're in. But most states, it's not, you want to go to your like electricity provider, they'll have, that's where you'll get the loans from.And they'll like they'll match give you like a 50% discount.And then you have to like do a match type thing with them. But it that's that's where I would go as your electricity provider is, or any type of energy provider like some there's some energy trusts and different states and that kind of thing.But go to the local providers,and they've received the grants from the feds, that's then the district just distributing it out. And they should also have funding for like appliance upgrades and that kind of stuff as well.Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. So the net result is you're just a lot more efficient, you're saving some money, and you're helping the climate. Yep.It's so lovely when that happens.But all three things come together. I know. And was there a third thing?Yeah, I think it's just I, I've been playing around with this idea a lot recently, I had some discussions. And I, it's such a wonderful thought. And it's a reframe, about how we function in life. And it's about really trying to bring consent into every action you do in the world. And, you know, a lot of times we think about consent, in terms of men and women and sexual dynamics, but really,it's just about making sure you have permission to do whatever action it is you do. And, and the more I thought about it, the bigger and bigger it gets.Because, you know, I think about like, do I have consent to like,I don't know, leave this here,build this house here, you know,does you know, are all the animals living in this space?Are they going to be willing to share this with me? You know, it builds on it. Because, you know,the more you think about do you have consent for the actions that you take? And so,I love this. Yeah, we were just talking about mining and the old ways that people would just open up a hole in the earth and take these, you know, things that are finite things that can't be replaced. Just that idea. I mean, they were raping the earth, literally, they there was not consent, the earth didn't consent to that. And humanity doesn't want you to be doing that. And so I'm glad that we're getting away from that, but I love that you make it bigger,and more personal to like, my own my own life, like what am I doing? more conscious, just living in a more conscious way of your impact?That's right, it brings a lot of mindfulness to, you know, it's so easy when all you have to do is go to the store and buy something and take it home,right? Like we're so removed from the processes that are going on behind the scenes there. And so, it it just the more we become critical of those processes, the more power we have, because you can then question those companies and say, you know, even if you still you know, every time I buy from like Amazon, right i All We use you know how they send the follow up, like, rate your experience form. I always sit there and say, I really hope you are like, hey, Amazon, thanks for the product, I really hope you're thinking about, like making like deliveries more environmentally friendly, and reducing emissions to zero.Right. And so, and that happens all the time with all companies.So like, it's another great action, you know, if there's any time to get feedback, always bring up client like that out there. Yeah, put it up for conversation. Right.Right. And that's how change happens. People forget that if enough voices are raised,companies say, Oh, I better listen to these people, you know,and it's actually a really small percentage of voices to like,yeah, like, especially with companies, right? Like, you know, like, even less than 1%.It just takes a few people in one week to have said the same thing. And then all of a sudden,everyone's thinking like, Oh, my God, all of our clients are thinking this, we have to change.You know, I mean, those voices,there probably are tons of people behind those comments,right, that don't make the comment. So it's probably a great response. That's a very good point to just Don't miss your opportunity to say something. No. So tell me more about this idea of consent and how you thought about that?Because I'm sort of fascinated.Yeah. I think that Well, I these are all thought experiments.Right. Now, we don't live in a world of consent, unfortunately.Right, like, but I think what gives me hope. And what I wish to aspire to is, what would that world look like? Yeah, and so many of these super complicated problems that we're, like,trying to figure out and rap unravel and wrestle with, right?They disappear if we just lived by consent, right, like our action based consent. And so I think that's where I think that this is really a magical space,this and this isn't my, like,there are people out out in the world who have written about this. There's a book called Hold on, let me look this up. That I've just been reading that was just talking about it. Oh, the future Earth, which is a really phenomenal book, it's by Kyle White. And it, he talks about this a little bit there as well.But just, you know, so much of what the root problem of all of this is, is, it's really easy to go here. And I try always not to because it triggers people. But this dysfunction of colonialism and manifest destiny, talking about you can go and just take,like, take the land and claim it as ours or take something that isn't and say it's ours, and then just use it until it's dead and then move on to the next right. That's really the the UI those actions have cotton.That's the underpinning Yes, the problem. And so that's Oh, yeah,that's the old way. And the older and I think that's, yeah,I think you're so smart not to emphasize that. But yeah, that's where we're, that's what we're trying to move away from. Yeah.And get into a different headspace. I love that reframing. And I love the idea of thinking that's such a great way to get to the heart of your actions is is there consent? You know, do I have consent? I love that. I just think it's so I just think it's a great reframing. And it's so ethical.It's such a great way to approach any situation. Yeah.Oh, life that way. Right. Yeah.A fully ethical, we were just talking about that this morning.We're talking about mining and how people took whatever they wanted. And, yeah, it's like,that's the old world, you know.And it's still that way in some parts of the world. But I feel the consciousness shifting, I feel people wanting to do something different. It's just,you know, you're up against these huge companies doing the wrong thing. Yeah. But we can change that. I hear that what you're saying. We can change it.We can be instruments of change.We are not powerless. That's our mouths. Yeah. And do the kinds of things you're suggesting. And I want to put that book in the show notes. Yeah. Future Earth.Good. So is there anything you'd like to leave us with because I love this whole conversation. I think it's so helpful to hear your thoughts about this. I already feel like I'm going to you approach things a little differently. Is there anything else that we haven't said?Yeah, I think maybe what I would, the the idea to leave everybody with is this idea that the fighter keeps dreaming. And as long as there are humans on this planet, there's hope for what we can do with it. Our reality, it's not going to be a gentle reality, it's going to be painful for a lot of people.It's an injustice and, and how it's going to go down. But as long as we're here, there's hope. And I think there's so much, there's so much power and potential and how we dream about how we want to go forward. And we don't spend enough time dreaming about the relationship we want to have with the Earth,the world we want to live in,that does represent equality and justice. That that brings balance back to this incredibly imbalanced space. And I think that would be my last call to action for people is to dream with love about the future you want to live in. Because that's the first step is to find that dream, and then slowly start working your way towards it.That's how we go towards it, to acknowledge our present, and have compassion for love for it.But to always keep, you know,that brighter Northern Star in line because it's the only way we get there through this.I do feel a lot of hope talking to you. I love how you break it down. It's really helpful. I think, I think you're doing good work. Some people would say God's work.Yeah, well, it's a it's a spiritual, you know,it is there's a component of it.That's spiritual, for sure.Yeah,I've never actually understood my spirituality until I started talking about our connection to there. And then all of a sudden,it appeared for me. So you know,there's, you know, it's no, she's definitely alive.She's alive she is. And you connect with her. And it's wonderful. Absolutely wonderful.And part of what I see too, and I love this, these simple things like people sharing. What I love about the internet is people share things in places you might never go, animals, you might never know. And so you want to protect that. Over time, you see these beautiful, special animals and places you start to remember, like, this is a special place to be loved and protected. And I think that's such a great function of connecting on the internet, and especially for young people to,to see these, the variety of species and the beauty in the oceans. And like I have, I'm on Instagram, watching videos of whales every day. I just think it's so good for my head. But I also think people will remember,there's such beauty to preserve.There's such a reason to love our planet. You know, it's just so beautiful and full of wonder.Yeah, like, how would we live our lives? If we shifted our focus on to what we love, rather than what we're reacting to what we're afraid of? Yeah, right.Like, what like, it's just like,doesn't change our reality, but it changes the energy in which we live.It's so true. It's so well that's like that empower that little book, like that little book that I did an episode on love is letting go of fear. You can't feel fear and love at the same time. So if you start to choose love it's it's a kind of volcanic, you know, in your life. It really is. Yeah, well,I've always liked you know, I know more about what you do. And I know people are gonna get it.They're gonna hear a different way of looking at things and and love the hope that and I love you for having me and it was it's important