Season 2: Episode 2: PART I-Talking with Nurse Practitioner Susie Spell about a more holistic approach to heath (and delving into the spirtual and paranormal)

Hi, this is Lynne Thompson. And this is part one of my wonderful conversation with Susie spell. She's a nurse practitioner, who used to be pretty cynical about spiritual experiences, and levels of consciousness, and the kinds of paranormal things that people talked about. But over time, and after losing her parents, she she came to realize maybe there was something to it, hearing her journey and her transformation, and realizing that she has become a more holistic and integrative health professional has been so interesting for me. And she brought up so many things that are so fascinating to hear. And she reminded me of things that I've had happen to me. And I revealed things that I usually don't. And it was just totally fun talking to her. I can't believe we didn't know each other before we met on a Facebook group. And I thought it would be a good idea to have an interview and boy was it so I can't thank her enough. It's been really interesting and fun. And I hope you guys find it that way too. And check the show notes because she's read a lot of good books, and I'm going to try to put them in there. Thanks so much. And now on to my part one interview with Susie spill. Hello, and welcome to the story human. This is Lynne Thompson, and I'm really happy today to introduce you to Susie Spell. I met her on one of those groups, those Facebook groups where we were trying to learn how to build a mail subscription list. And I just thought how fun that I'm meeting people on this list interested in what I am. And they could be guests on my podcast. So it's worked out for me. Susie is a nurse practitioner, and holistic health coach. She had an awakening of sorts in the last year or so a couple of years, actually. And she's expanding her exploration of consciousness and what that means for healing. She's discovered all kinds of things about herself. And like a lot of my interviewees. She's followed that which I am so fascinated with. So welcome, Susie, it's so nice to have you here. Thank you, Lynne. I love this. I love that we're chatting and that we met on a Facebook group. And it's, you know, we're getting to spend this time together. So thank you for having me. There's so it's so fun. the serendipity of it, isn't it how you just bang into somebody? And you're like, No, I think we could talk. Yeah, yeah, it's a lovely thing. So why don't you just tell us a little bit about your background, what you studied and how, you know, we'll start to talk about how you got to where you are now. Okay. And I will try not to be so long winded because I like to talk. So So do I do too. So I have to keep myself quiet when I'm interviewing. Right? I'll give the listeners a little bit of, you know, just context to begin with. I'm 48 years old, but I identify as 29. I have a husband I've been married for 20 years. And he and I come from very different backgrounds. I was raised in a loosely reformed Jewish kind of way converted to Christianity. He was raised in Southern Baptist and rural North Carolina. So my family's from the northeast. We're Yankees and they're very rural North Carolina. So right off the bat that you know, we had an interesting mix to start with. So been married 20 years I have two teenagers are about to launch one to college. And they have been really integral in my my whole life. And then I have a whole gaggle of furry friends. I have a couple of dogs. I had three cats now I'm somehow up to four in the last week. And whatever creatures they bring, you know, we just love creatures, we love each other. And, you know, we don't always get along. But you know, it's been a really interesting time. So that's who I am. As a person. i My parents, I've lost both of my parents. I'm the youngest of was it five I had my my mom had to, from a different marriage. My dad had three from a different marriage together. They had me so I'm the baby. And I am and have identified with which I'm, I'm trying to expand my identification of who I am. But I've identified as a nurse and a caretaker, even when I was little. So I used to love finding little wounded animals or whatever, or of everything that I wanted to nursing. So I have a degree in biology and one in nursing. I went One of the top nursing schools in the country, I went to UNC Chapel Hill go heels. I love UNC. Wow. And then I worked at Duke. So I was very much ingrained and indoctrinated into the materialistic reductionistic kind of medical model, which even though we think and we are, you know, some of the most advanced in the globe for our health care, but we rank really low, right? So, very indoctrinated into show me the science, Show me the evidence, and then I'll believe it, you know, like, I have to see it to believe that kind of thing. And for a long time lived my life. Very, very overworked and under slept. And that's kind of like what happens in our culture now. And I think it's, you know, has gotten worse and worse. But when I was young, I just, I worked. I went to school, I had children, you know, like, I was always really close with my mom, also close to my dad, but not in the same way. As my mom. She was integral to my life. She helped me raise my children. She was fun and funny and joyous, and just loved everybody. I mean, she just, you know, didn't discriminate. She loved everyone. And so, that held true for her family. She cooked and she made us treats and she always shipped baked goods and was just a really kind of a cool human and love to laugh and was kind of a comedian, you know, so really fun person to be around. Everyone loves being around her. And so I was, like I said, in that very prescribed box of the medical model, and my daughter, you know, so I live this like, I call it sympathetic overdrive, because now I know what that means. Like you're always irritated, overworked on fire, like, always go, go, go, go, go. That's how we are. And that's how I was, and my daughter, who's now 18, was in middle school. And she said to me one day, she said, Mom, middle school is, and this is one of the turning points, right? She said, Mom, this middle school thing is hard enough for me as it is, I need you to be more loving and kind and less irritated and mad at me all the time. And it was like, mind blown, right? Oh, and I thought I have to find a way I have to find a way to be better. I need to sleep more. I need to start meditating. You receive that? So well, though you received that so? Well. Not everybody would. Right. And I think that's one of the things people have told me when I tell that story. People do say, Well, the way that you reacted to that is different than other people would have reacted to that. So cool. Yeah, message to all moms and dads and teenagers, right? I mean, it's really hard for them, you know, so to remember that it is. And in addition to that, their brains are growing so rapidly, like in no other time other than toddlerhood. So she was, she had some anxiety anyway. And I know she wouldn't mind me telling that but she started watching all these paranormal videos. And I kept saying to her, stop watching those, you know, like you're making yourself crazy. You know, that's all a bunch of BS, like, just stop it already. And mind you, there were other things that were going on, I'll touch on in just a second in my own life after my mom died, but I wasn't really allowing myself to recognize, okay, so I said are you just have to stop, you know, just stop. And she was like, this is something to it. There's something to it. And I think looking back, she was really looking for answers, because she's much more open to all that spiritual stuff than I am. She feels it. Yeah, that's yeah. And has, you know, not that she hears voices, but she'll have intuitive messages and things like that, and much more open to that kind of thing than I was. So I think she was just looking for answers. But let me just back up for a second. So my mom died in 2012. And actually, next Friday is the 10th year anniversary of her passing. But so she had passed away. We were very close. She lived with my family and I she was this vibrant woman on nomads diagnosed with ALS, which is Lou Gehrig's disease. Oh my gosh, yeah. And ended up living with us. And it was so hard to watch her body just give up on her when she was always I mean, she'd be on the roof fixing something. I mean, she just was very independent. And shortly after she passed away, all of these like light bulbs in my house kept blowing and stuff like that. And I, I said to my husband, one day, I have replaced 14 light bulbs. And so looking back on that now what I know, I think to myself on that time, like was it more of a poltergeists kind of thing like energy from a human? Was it her? I don't know. But I feel like she does try to communicate through electronics because, like, one day I was sitting there and it was the anniversary of her death, I think and I was sitting there at the kitchen table. It was like one in the morning. And I said Hey, Mom, you know, I love you If you're somewhere you can hear me, you know, I miss you. And the light bulb bumped up and just and went out. And so there were things that happened like that, that I was like, Huh, that's kind of a weird coincidence. And then would go about my business, you know. And she had given me this little pair of earrings that was made by an artist in California. She had visited my sister came back, I had the earrings, I had them for years. And we were cleaning out my house because we were moving to our new house at the time, which was in 2015 ish 2016. And it was literally my mattress. I had no sheets on the bed, my dresser, my jewelry box, and my daughter was there in our, in our nanny at the time. So we were in my house getting ready to move out. And so nothing was in my house, my mattress, no sheets, just my dresser at my jewelry box because I wanted that with me in the car. And our, our helper was there. My daughter was there, you know, they were sweeping the floor. And I had my earrings and my California earrings that just connected me with my mom, I felt like they were there. And then when I went to go, like get my jewelry box, they were not there. So I freaked out. I was like, where my earrings helped me find my I mean, we looked through the little dust bunnies through the house, you know, I looked at my dresser was empty. They were not on the mattress. Nothing. I just didn't know. I mean, I had lost them. And I was I felt Heartbleed I know that it's kind of stupid. But like, I felt heartbroken that I didn't have these earrings, like they were my connection to her, you know, my reminder of her. And so I thought, well, you know, if they're in our stuff somewhere, I guess I'll find them and I didn't, we moved to the new house, we unpacked stuff and I never found them. And I thought, you know, this is kind of awful. And I don't know if someone if I just thought it or someone said to me, Well, why don't you ask her to bring him back? And I was like, okay, so I said, Ma, if you're listening, could I have the earrings back? And literally that afternoon, they showed up on my you know, I had folded clothes, and I had a stack of clothes and they were on top of my stack was no way. So I thought oh, Kay, like now what is your mind do with this? Because you're still skeptical? Right? Well, it's like, what? Did they go to another realm? does she exist somewhere? Like, what is that? Like? It's just a coincidence, my mind is playing tricks on me. And like my mind is just playing tricks on me because we want to be rational. Right? Right. Right. And so then it's this whole long story with these various earrings that would disappear and come back disappeared. They come back if I'd asked her to bring him back, you know, and so then they'd appear again. And she had a cat we inherited her cats when she was you know, after she passed away. And when that she really liked what her name was Lucy the cat and so Lucy always slept in a little ball on my bed, like right up by the pillows. And Lucy passed away. So we had a little ceremony outside. In the back we buried her under a tree, you know said a few words. And you know she's with her Nene now that's we call my mom and mom's name was Nana. And we called her Nene. And so um, you know, go back in to my house, and I'm walking past my bed. And one of my earrings, the California earrings was right in the spot where she would sleep. And I was like, what I was like, What is? How is that there? That's No, I got and I say to my husband, and at the time I had my husband, I two kids and we had three foster kids at the time. So I'm like, wow, look at this. Yeah, I was like, so I go in and I pointed the earring and my husband goes, how did that get there? And I said good. Right? I get chills thinking about that. Like, I don't know how they got there. Like that was not I don't put that there, right in the spot where Lucy slept. So other things like, um, one day I'm driving in my car and the radio start going crazy, like scanning, scanning, scanning, and then it would end up on the religious channel. Right? And I, you know, I don't really listen to the religious channel. And then it was scan, scan, scan and end up right back on the religious channel. It was happening that I just got up my phone and I thought well, I'm gonna record it, you know? So I recorded it. I said to my husband, and he was like, What is going on and then just went back to normal. And I was like, okay, and you know, then at some point, I'm driving down the road and this a hawk flew right in front of my car almost hit my car and I had this overwhelming sense that my dad was present. So I was like, I don't really know what's going on but there's something and then here it goes my daughter watching all these paranormal videos, right? So back to that per second. And I said I was in St. Augustine. I dropped her off to do a volunteer thing. I was walking around the visitor center and I saw a couple like flyers for ghost tours. And I don't really know didn't notice in Augustine much really I just you know, I kind of live near it as a cool place. to go, and I thought that would be fun for her birthday, which was coming up. I know I thought to myself a ghost tour, because these coasts, ghost tours are like, get a glow stick, you go the group, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I thought I wanted a real experience not just like a glow stick ghost tour, right? So I found somebody His name is Edie. And I remember him saying to me, you're searching for something. I said, No, it's not for me. It's for my daughter. And he goes, No, you'll get something out of this. It might be more for you than her. And I thought, What is this guy talking about? So I was like, alright, well, whatever. And he said he had, he only agrees to take out about 25% of people he talks to because they need to be like, genuinely interested. So we go and he asked us to meet him at the St. Augustine Lighthouse park at nine o'clock. And he said, bring cameras, you know, bring bring yourself it was myself, my husband, my daughter, her boyfriend at the time, and my son. And it was him and his granddaughter. And we He lit a couple of candles, he lit some incense. We had a chat and he said this was another pivotal moment for me. He said everything is energy, everything. Even the chair and the picnic table you're sitting on is energetic. And I was like, okay, you know, and so he said as we started to go on our little tour, right. And we stayed out with him till about three in the morning. He was like take lots of pictures, pictures on your cell phone. I forgot my DSLR camera, but I brought like a little cat Canon camera that had the lens would stay open for five or six seconds. And so we went all through the the lighthouse Park, which has these big like oak trees that kind of look. You know, they had a Spanish moss. Spooky, it looks spooky at night right at night. Yep. And then there was a lighthouse, the lighthouse grounds, which would you go onto the grounds, but you can see the grounds. And he said at one point put your you know, your Canon camera up on the fence point over there. That's where people see. See people he calls them people, right just disembodied sometimes in that direction. So I'm chatting with him, I'm taking picture after picture, letting the lens stay open five or six seconds. And so then he takes us through another wooded area to a place called the cat people. He said there were there stray cats, and when the stray cats would pass away, they would go over and bury them in the section. And so we walked all through there, which was kind of crazy. And then he took us to he took us to a place near the St. Augustine Amphitheater where they have a lot of concerts, especially in the summer, a little area adjacent to that. And then we watched through a wooded area over to the rock quarry. So the rock quarry was a place where we have a fort and St. Augustine built with cookina Michels, and that's where they would mind the shells and take them over and build the fort. So there's a lot of history and we have a lot of also Indian, Native American, Hispanic Americans were here before anybody else. So that was fine. We stayed out. You know, a lot of the night we went back home. And the next day when we wake up, I put all the pictures on the computer, you know, and I really I had no expectation I really didn't have any expectation of seeing anything. Wow. And we're looking through and my husband goes, what is that? On one of the pictures? I said, what is that? Until like, I scan in and it looks I mean, it sounds crazy when I say it out loud, right? Like, it looks like a child climbing a tree. But like a see through child. I was like, right, right? That. He said somebody is climbing that tree. And I said somebody is climbing that tree? And so when so that set me on this path of what the heck is it, Mike? So then I'm texting Eddie, right? I'm sending him a couple you know, I'm taking pictures of the computer. And I'm like, This is freaking me out. It's freaking me out. And he said they're always there. Don't worry about that. He was like, it's a normal night. Yeah, I was like, Oh, no. But I mean, I even have a picture of someone who looks like a little girl in the cat people section that she's with like a deer. And then another picture of a tuxedo like someone with a tuxedo. And my daughter will say to me take a photo over there take a photo of it because she'll like scent feel it Yeah, right. And and the only people I've told this stuff to really it's only like a couple of my close friends and my you know, not even my extended family and and for the people listening I want to make it really clear. You took pictures of nothing like you know, I didn't see I didn't see a thing and you just get pictures and I go home and oh my gosh, there's something in that picture. Right but I will say when I was reflecting on it, there were times when I would feel not dizzy or off balance but like a little like I guess the only way I can describe it as dizzy, like I'd walk through an area or being an errand, I feel dizzy. And energy. You could Yeah, right. Like energy. Oh, interesting. So you were beginning to heal and realize Yeah, yes. And your daughter already had that. You know, it's funny. I've always had that. Like, since I was little, that's what I was saying. But I, I would learn to sort of not talk about to certain people. But what I had with my mother was, we had telepath Pathak connection, and I was the receiver I would always receive. So she would be like thinking something I remember the most clear and funny example of it was, she asked a question, or actually one night she received, I asked a question in my head. I was doing homework in the in the dining room, and I was like, I wonder what we're having for dinner. I was just thinking it. Right? And my mother's at this stove stirring. And she goes, Oh, I was thinking of making up. She answered the question, right. And we both left our heads off. So it's like, a lot of people have this, and they don't talk about it. Right? Talk about it. But he told us about that before we ever went on our tour. He said he was connected. Yeah, he definitely felt stuck. Right. And so you said you can do that in your house, you can talk to you know, talk to each other. And I was like, myself, that's BS, you know? Yeah. And well, when, if you don't have like that, it's almost like you need a base. And then somebody can tell you that people just tell you random stuff. You're like, what. But I also wanted to mention that I've done a lot of reading, and I've gone to mediums and I, I've done a lot of reading of channeled material about, about what people who pass over can see and hear. And I find it fascinating. That did you say he lit candles? Yeah. Because they say that, you know, spirits can't see electrically, they see candles. And I love that. And also that you spoke out loud to your mom, because they can hear us, they can hear us. And I wish more people were encouraged to speak out loud, because, you know, they're lonely on the other side for us, you know, they want to know, right? They want to connect, right? And I've heard or read that, like, if you do talk out loud to them, which can seem a little crazy at first. But you know, we just keep the crazy in my house. But you know, if you speak out loud to them, you know, that makes them feel like they're welcome. They're, you know, don't want to be forgotten. Right? Right. The most dramatic example of this, and we just talked about this the other night, and I couldn't even believe it. I lost a friend to suicide. And it was devastating. She was younger than me. And it was, it was so awful. And I just missed her very, very much. And one day in the car, I was just like, hoping that she had found some peace because it was so hard for her at the end. She had a drastic version of bipolar. And she really suffered. And I find that when someone dies, sometimes the dying and losing them. It's hard. But the suffering that that you saw, I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. It's just, that's what's hard to get past. So you want to know that your loved one is at peace. And I remember just calling out in the car, because I do talk to I allow myself to do that. I just said, I just said I, I want you to be at peace. I hope you're at peace. And I love you. And I'm thinking about you and I haven't forgotten you. And it was just this like plea. And I went to a medium maybe four months later. And I don't just go indiscriminately, right? mediums that are really good. And I really trust, I went to this medium. And I was a little embarrassed because it was like a group meeting. And she was like taking a lot of time with me. But I was like on fire. Like I had a lot to read. And she just said your friend Joan says thank you so much for the prayer. She heard everywhere. And tears just came down my face. And I was just like, why don't we make this more normalized that we are connected in some way that we can talk to people and I know the best. The best articles about grief say you can have a relationship with your loved one. And you can talk to them. I don't think they talk about the woowoo side. But it's just very healthy to keep talking. Right? Because person was part of your whole life. You know, anyway, I digress. And you know, that brings up consciousness, you know, so there's this debate in the medical world, right? Like where does consciousness live? People say it comes out of your brain the materialistic but other people say it somewhere else because you can be the conscious observer of yourself. Right but and one of the things I wish there were more hospice people I follow this girl on Tik Tok, who hospice nurses, you know, and I for whatever like I don't know if it was a sick reason or trying to understand I always was drawn to like bereavement. You know, I when I worked in the ICU, I worked with children and I a couple of times taught them You know, as new nurses came in the bereavement practices that we would do for the children that would die. And just always, you know, I worked in a nursing home and I would sit with people on occasions that are passing and some people die alone, you know, and so yeah, even though I wasn't particularly religious, just kind of interested in I, what I thought at the time was bereavement, you know, like, I guess the human side of it, or even, you know, how you stay connected. But, but it's just, like we said earlier, before we even started recording, it's, it's bursts into another dimension. And birth is such a big deal, right? We make such a big deal out of the beginning, right. And we're afraid of the end. But really, it's really a natural process that we all are going to go through that we all lose people. I think you were attracted to that whole, you know, the significance of it. And, you know, like, you're attracted to what I think part of you was like, what happens to us, you know, yeah, right. Yeah. What happens? Yeah, I think so. And, you know, as my mom was dying, she, you know, she had been, I mean, they said that they were Methodist growing up, and they only went to church on Easter and Christmas, right. But she when she met my dad love the beauty of Judaism. And so she took you have to study for quite a while to become Jewish. Right. And then she was what was, you know, others would call her shiksa? Because she wasn't really, right. It was a teenage shiksa Yeah. Oh, yeah. So that was, but she loved the religion. But when she was in her last month, she said to me, I just think we go in the ground. That's it. There's nothing else and I was like, and I and me being sciency. Right. I was like, No, you're probably right. You know, so a lot of that thought in my mind, because a friend of mine had said, you know, we're all carbon is that weird? Like all the universe. We're just made up of elements of the universe. And then we get recycled when we die. And I was like, you know, I think that is what happened. We just get recycled in that sense. But then there's that consciousness part. Europe is get recycled. But yeah, there's a whole other. Yeah, a friend of mine had said she had been a hospice nurse. And I was very sad because my mom passed and I wasn't there. And she said, big kick. She said, People pick when they pass away. They do that on purpose sometimes because it would just be so she wouldn't leave if you were there. Yeah. So want to leave you. Yeah. So she was writing. And in her last day or two, in hospital, she had a little board she was trying to write. And she wrote the word hallucinations. Because she would do like she was petting a cat. And she said, Mel, that was her cat, one of her, one of our cats when I was little. And then she said she had seen a person or two, and she had knew she was having hallucinations. But now when I look back on it, I don't think it was hallucinations. I think those beings were coming as she was making that transition. And I kind of wish she had also thought that she thought she was having hallucinations. Okay, because eventually she saw that she was wrong. Right? She figured it out. I want to tell you that. So what happened is i i After that paranormal tour, and I got into this like, for my photographs, right? What am I seeing in my photographs? I learned about elementals I learned I was searching for something and I searched I found a book by a woman named Julie Rhaegar called the ghost photographer. And I was fascinated this woman was a exec at Fox. And she now has a podcast that I like religiously listened to, but she got all into the spiritual stuff, right and after seeing ghosts in her photos, because I was like, where's the rep reference? Like Doesn't anyone written about this? And so that happened What else after that Oh, and then come to find out that I live an hour and a half well within an hour and a half from a place called Cassadaga spiritualist camp. Apparently people know about it, but it is it was birthed out of whatever spiritualist camp what is it called? There's a famous spiritualist camp in New York. And whoever founded that question, forgetting the name. Oh, I know that I've read all about that. Everybody's a medium and everybody Yes, yes. Crazy things happen. It's a beautiful place. What is it called? I don't remember no. Oh, something they only Dale Lilly. Do we do? Right? Yeah. And so anyway, the person who had founded that place I was visiting Florida and was drawn to this area in Florida and said I need to purchase this land, because this is another vortex. Like they say it's one of the biggest vortexes you know, they're Sedona. There's this place between St. Augustine and Daytona. And I had never known that I lived in Florida for a long time. And I discovered this site, which is all mediums and psychics and healers and all this stuff. So I had never put my daughter I wanted to go and I wanted to go to just to kind of see what it was like. So I picked a medium and we went for the first time after this whole, like paranormal thing. So when we went, it was really strange. I was very nervous, very nervous. And just, I felt choked. You know, like, I couldn't talk almost like on the verge of tears. It was my daughter, myself, and this medium who was very kind and nice, very nice woman. And she said to me, like she says, she always has a blessing to begin with. And she said, your parents are here, like both of them. And I was like, Really, and I get chills thinking about it. And she said, they're showing me a photo album, a photo out lots of pictures photo album, and I was like, I don't know, I was like, I don't know what that means, you know, because they, but I discovered a spirit speaks in symbols, right? I mean, right? Sometimes you can develop your clairvoyance where you hear or see or whatever, but there's a lot of symbolism, right? Yeah. And they want to make sure that you know, it's done. So they'll pick right lucky little things, you know, right. And so there's that verification process that happens at the beginning, when you see a medium or, you know, someone who's genuinely, you know, a medium and wanting to help you. So actually was my daughter that did most of the talking, and every now and then she said, they keep showing me like putting this photo album in front of me, you don't know what that is. And I just thought, I really don't. And then a year later, I'm driving down i 95. And I was listening to a lot of spiritual stuff. And people were talking about these downloads, and like, I really don't know what they're talking about downloads. And then all of a sudden, I got what I would consider, like a download. It's like, you just have this note, like something into your mind. It's like immediate, right? And, and you just know it. And I just knew it. And it was that I had, they were sending me verification, because I had seen those pictures from our paranormal tour. And I was so in diving into this deep hole of taking photos of everything, and looking for spirit and photos. And they were showing a photo album. And I was like, oh, like, Why did I connect that? You know, seems so simple, you know, like, that I got to her and to the shirt. There. That's so amazing. And I feel like this year, it was like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw little things at you along the way. And they're like, oh, my gosh, she was not listening. You know, I guess she's the see it to believe it. So I'll show her, you know, oh, my gosh. Back. It's like amazing, isn't it? And then, you know, the guy Eddie had said, I'm not going to tell you about the history of St. Augustine, you can look that up before you come for our meeting when we did the paranormal tour. And I didn't, I was just busy with life. I didn't look it up. And so I did after I looked it up. And apparently the ghost hunters have been there a couple of times the lighthouse is apparently haunted, right? There were a couple of children that died during its construction. And it's apparently very alive with activity, spirit activity. And I went to the lighthouse a couple of times just to like, go to the gift shop and go around the grounds. And every person that I came across that is an employee there, you know, because you can walk up in the lighthouse and all that every employee, I would say the system is really haunted. And every single person Oh, yeah, for sure. Every single one had had their own experience. Like it's just a thing. Like everyone knows that experience. Yeah. And I was like, No way, you know. So that was kind of an end. I was like, Well, I'm gonna buy a year long pass, I guess. So this started opening your mind to these things? Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, when I reflect back on it in my life, like as a, as a child, we always went to the Renaissance Fair, and I couldn't wait for the renaissance fair, because I love the Amethyst and the crystals and like, all those, you know, the different scents and you know, I loved all that stuff. But I like you said, the culture is such that you close that stuff down and you pursue something else, you know, and nursing was definitely, it's definitely a heart center thing, but it's also very technical and sciency. Right, you know, and so at that, so, you know, fast forward to three years and now I have all these books on my shelf and in my audible library, and now I have this, you know, ongoing subscription to Gaia, you know, and so, whatever, you know, crystals herbalism, aromatherapy, UFOs, you know, like the whole, you know, right there with you. Whatever metaphysical paranormal thing you want to talk about, it's like I get really excited thinking about it, but also, I was when I was going through this I had so during this I was in a goodwill at one point with my daughter and I'm milling around the books, and I find this book it's called Quantum healing, exploring the frontiers of mind Body medicine written by Deepak Chopra, MD 30 years ago, 30 years ago. Then I also see a book called vibrational harmony, written by Beverly Nadler. And so I thought, well, for $1, you know, apply these books, right. And this is the most fascinating book The Quantum healing when Deepak and I knew who Deepak Chopra was. So then I started this exploration, like I said, of all these different books, all these different writers, and I was fascinated by people who are especially like MDs, right? And these are PhDs people like, I think it's Neale Donald Walsch, who wrote Conversations with God or like, yeah, Brian, may lives many masters, you know, these in a healing profession very science based and had their minds and hearts open to what does all of this mean? Right? And and can we explain it? How do we explain it, maybe we just revel in the mystery of it all, you know. And so I have just explored all these things now, which I think I'm trying to find my way and what my life will look like, because I no longer want it to look like hours on end seeing, you know, because the medical establishment now the way things the way it is now, you run them through like cattle. I'm sorry, I hate to say that. But that's true. You have to, you know, time is money. There's a time limit, right? You can't let people talk long enough to tell you what's wrong with them. And the under fluorescent lights on the computer all day, and I was having like, terrible migraines, feeling exhausted, emotionally exhausted, physically exhausted all of that. And I thought, This is not how I want my life, you know, not a natural way to live. Yeah, right. And I remember so I worked in specialty care at 1.2. And I said to the chief, my chief, I said, you know, if I let someone talk long enough, they'll tell me what's wrong with them? And he said, Absolutely. And I've read that since then in different books, right, wow. And he said, and if you let them talk even longer, they'll tell you the solution. And I owe that. But we don't do that while on are the days when the doctor came to your house with his bag, to sit and listen and hold your hand and really figure out what's going on. So even in my practice, as a nurse practitioner, I discovered I started saying to people, after I'd build some rapport, I'd say, I closed my computer or my notebook or whatever it's writing out, now we just look at them, I say, but what's really going on? And that's tell me what's really going on. I love that I love that so much, you know, what you're reminding me of, I have Hashimotos, I have a thyroid. And I did a whole lot of because I don't trust, you know, just the conventional treatment. I did a whole lot of reading, of course, you know, that's my thing. I'm, I'm like you, but a lay person, you know, like just like exploring and researching and saying there's got to be more than I can do. And I discovered supplements that have helped me so much. And I just don't think most people even know about them. And it makes me it makes me sad. But my point is, I read in my research, that it's actually horrible now, because we have these incredibly accurate tests of all the hormones, and doctors look at the numbers and tell you you're fine. When you're sitting, you're not fine. Everyone's different, right? And it was actually better. In the old days, you reminded me so much of this when you said they sit and they talk to you. In the old days, they would have to sit and talk to you about your symptoms. Are you cold? Are you losing hair? Are you you know, do you have brain fog? Everyone's so different. And they would it was the art of medicine, they raised by an amount of Synthroid that would match your symptoms. And I was so struck by that we think we're so advanced, right? But the doctor sitting there just the evidence is in front of them. And they'll tell you, you're fine. Well, I was told I was fine. But especially with thyroid, you know, we lose that number, right? We look at the numbers yet for years, I wasn't fine. And I also wasn't told I had Hashimotos for years. Nobody felt until I got Lyme disease. This is like a long I don't want to go on and on. But yeah, I've got Lyme disease. And nobody. It's so crazy, because we live like in the line. You know, besides Connecticut, New Jersey is like the Lyme center of the world. In my county, Hunterdon County. It's rural, and it's very wet in the summer. It's like ticks Central. And I found out later that everybody on my street had had the house, every house had at least one person who had Lyme disease. So it was back in like the middle 2000s. And nobody Believe it or not, no doctor really knew. All they knew was you got a bullseye rash, which only 60% or even less than that, I think yeah, I was like, What am I going to do? I also had no idea I had it of course because I had no rash. So I had these weird symptoms. That align patient told me I think you have one Um, disease like a doctor never figured it out. I was getting like, I was getting, oh, you might have Ms. I was getting SPECT scans, it was ridiculous. So I found my own line center and I went there. And they did like, seven or eight weeks of tests until I finally hit positive. I got treated with doxycycline, as as much as I could tolerate, and I got better. And I was really lucky because sometimes it goes into your brain, and then it's harder to treat. Right. But my point is, it really did force me. And that's when I was also the person that the Lyme center, the doctor at the Lyme Center said, you have Hashimotos, like, my regular doctor didn't have a clue. Well, this is a thing. So I want to I want to tell you a couple of things, which, for Lyme in particular, the lyme patients I've seen, you know, a lot of us What if we don't know what to do with it as a medical provider? Yeah. I mean, it's just like, we'll turf you to somebody else. Right. Right. And why patients notoriously struggle and struggle and struggle to get somebody to listen to them. And the ones that I the line patients I've seen, and I have a friend with chronic Lyme, it's almost like you have a PTSD from the whole experience is much yours, and people won't listen to you. And that I mean, that is the that's one of the hallmarks of our medical system. Now, we don't listen to you. And it was one of the Socrates or somebody said, or Hippocrates, or one of them long time ago said, you know, you have to treat the person with the illness, not illness. Now it's like opposite now. Oh, my gosh, that's exactly right. Right. Yeah. And, and that's one of the things I love the IRA VEDA, just telling you a little bit bit about that as looking at people's constitution. Right, how are you made up? But another thing I was going to tell you about, about my mom, too, and I don't know what you just said, That reminded me but she would, she I found a thing that recently in her stuff that was about how to do a tarot card reading, but with real cards, because she was always a card player. So I thought there's a little thing about that, too. But um, I want to mention that about the line, and then also with thyroid, and don't even get me started on the thyroid, because I know this is we're talking about spirit. But I just want to throw this in there. So if people are listening, and they have thyroid, yes, I've, I've joined with, in the last year or so been part of a practice that practices lifestyle and functional medicine, with a very good doctor. And what happens with our standard of care and what the guidelines are for thyroid is we check your TSH. And if that's good, you're good, right? It's what I was told, right? So but that's not really true, because you have that the TSH is the message that your brain sends to the gland to make T three and T four though these long names, one's active ones inactive, then it gets converted to the active form in your body. And so those are also important numbers to look at. But in addition to that, and I knew this from a long time ago, people said that with thyroid, the most common reason in our country for thyroid disease is Hashimotos. Okay, so Hashimotos like 95%? Yeah, so the majority of it, it used to be long time ago, before we had iodized salt, it was lack of iodine, but that's not the case anymore. It's mostly Hashimotos Hashimotos is an autoimmune condition. That means your body is attacking itself, right? So and if you have one, if you have one, autoimmune condition, your likelihood of developing a second or third one are very high. And one of the things that you have to do to test that is you need to test. They're called TPO antibodies and thyroid globulin antibodies. So you need to look at the antibodies. Did I even had an endocrinologist? Tell me, I don't even bother. Because I know that's why, yeah, but what we do is we wait, and this is exactly what they say, we wait till your thyroid burns out, then we'll give you some medicine forever. You if you know this early on, you can be supported with something like a trial of a gluten free diet. And I used to think all that was BS, you know, but now I know better because I've learned so much more. What happens is a lot of us now because of our food, our food system and the processed stuff and all this stuff. We have leaky guts for all these leaky, you know, guts, which I didn't, I thought that was BS, too. But now I know so much more about the microbiome and all that. But what can happen is the Gliadin, which is a protein in the gluten can flip through that barrier and get into your body. It just so happens to look just like your thyroid tissue. So your body says, Oh, that thing is foreign. I'm going to attack that and get rid of that for you. And they're like, Wait, this looks like that too. So I'll just take care of that too. Oh my gosh. And that's what's happening. And so training that you're Yeah, yeah. And so in addition to all that we backup to all the leaky gut stuff and the use of our pesticides and all this. I mean, it's, it's, it's a huge issue and a problem. It's kind of overwhelming. Like, it's like what I've, I've done a lot of my own research and reading because I had to, and my conclusion is, it's hard to stay well, it is very hard, very like one of the, I just want to say this. So people who are listening will know that one of the things that turned me around was just adding selenium. I added selenium, it helps T four, make T three. And for a little while, I had a doctor giving me two three, but it didn't work for me. But I fell asleep. Like that was my weird, like, weird reaction to it. But selenium is very powerful antioxidant might. By the way, my, my endocrinologist approves all of my supplements, so I don't just wing. Right, right. I talked to her about it, and she loves selenium. And it's not expensive. And I just wish more people, they just don't believe that something that's simple. I have more energy because of selenium. And vitamin D, and magnesium, like the big threats are bigger and autoimmune. Yeah. And then I throw in others as I hear about them, but she proves everything I do. And there's a mixer, she said that people are just listening to doctors and not available that's not in our toolbox in the Western way. It's just not, you know, unless we actively go and pursue some of that knowledge, a great resource for people and providers is something called full script, it will plug for them, I don't know, it's a great place to learn. And also, if you want to supplement examined.com, that's a good place to learn to. And even in the show notes, this is great, okay. And then also, the National Institutes of Health have a huge supplement guide, they have all kinds of supplements that you ever want to know about. They have the lay person version and a provider version. So if you ever want to know about that, but you know, with Selenium, if you eat two to three Brazil nuts a day, that can give you your Selenium, and it's also good for blood pressure. So there was a study that had people are eating a couple Brazil nuts a day and their blood pressures were better. So it's a whole food and you know, you can, you can just eat a couple every day. And I'm doing acupuncture right now. That's good, too. The doctor says, she's just wonderful. Like, she just has had so much training. And she's an herb ologists, too, like, she had like eight years of training on top of learning acupuncture. And so sometimes I'll just chit chat with her. And I'll say, oh, you know, this is better, I'm feeling better. And she said, listen to your body, you have to listen to your body. And it's just such a cool thing that nobody tells you. Well, and here's the thing. Yeah, with that is that we're so disconnected, we think from here up, right, just just our neck up, we use our brain, but there's so much to be said about the messages from your body. Now I'm guilty of not listening to my body to trust me, you know, I will get caught up in our lives. Right? But that it will always send you a message. And sometimes the message has to get really loud before you listen. It's so true. And oh my gosh, that's so true. There is, you know, I don't know, my friend says I'm like I should go on Jeopardy or something which there was another vote, I have all these books right here. There's this book called Molecules of Emotion by Kansas for I love the sound of that. Yeah. And part of it talks about how the messages are sent in your body and how we can listen to them, you know, so or even with food, like, for me, as a medical provider, I'm always trying to think what is the underlying mechanism? How has it worked scientifically. And sometimes I just think you need to pull back and say, Okay, if I don't know the mechanism, and it works, is that okay? You know, like, that's cool. Yeah. It's so funny, because I remember I was getting more and more into, like, the supplement thing and learning how to eat and, you know, give me a blueberry just really trying hard to let to be healthier. And I remember saying to my son, like, oh, you should try this supplement. You know, it really has helped me and magnesium, you know, it helps me go to sleep and I don't have my, I don't have leg cramps. And, and at one point, he said, does it matter if it really works? Because you believe it does? And I Oh, yeah. And my mind went? Right, because I have that thing. I don't know what that is. Some people have it. I have that. It's just natural. I believe it will like I've never taken a medicine that didn't work. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like I have to do. I got a headache and taking a pill and it didn't take care of my headache. So I never understood that there's a whole component. So I'm telling people take this take that I shouldn't be doing that because everybody's different. And I have a belief I have this wonderful gift where I totally believe that it will work. That is called the placebo effect. And if I read some words like why would it work? Why would the placebo effect work if we didn't have mind over matter? And I again, I never thought of it that way done. And this also touches on some of that. But there's Joe Dispenza has a whole book called I love him. Yeah. And when my mom was sick, and this is before my, any of this awakening stuff happened to me, right? We go and we see her doctor at Duke. And he said, I, you know, I think you should, he said to my mom, I think you should enroll in this study. It's not really going to help you at the moment, but it's going to help us as researchers understand als better, blah, blah, blah. And that was fine. Then he said, I, there's another study coming up, that's a drug study. And it's a promising drug. We don't know if it'll work or not. But we want some people to be in it. There's going to be a placebo arm and an in an experimental arm, meaning that some people are going to get the drugs, some are not. So my mom entered that study. And we would go for her infusions, like once a week, and afterwards, she just be exhausted, because they said, you know, maybe you'd be exhausted afterwards. And so she'd be exhausted for a day or two. But she would say, I think I'm feeling better, you know, and he had said to her, even if you get the placebo, you'll live longer, because we know that there's the placebo effect, and we leverage that in medicine. So, So sure enough, like she had passed away, she was in that study. He called me a number of months later, and I said, I want to let you know that your mom was not receiving the medication. You know, so but it seemed like she was and she was saying, I know, I'm getting it. You know, so powerful, so powerful. And if you there's something called the no SIBO effect. Like, if you think something bad's gonna happen to it will, you know, I mean, oh, my gosh. Yeah. So there's, those are so grossly underestimated, pushed aside. Now, that doctor said that to my mom, but he has a, that's the only time I've heard that from a medical doctor. Yeah. Now I have a doctor, my general practitioner who's a little bit more like this. And he spends time with us. I mean, it's just unusual. And I adore him. And he's not from this country, which I think is a huge part of, I think he was raised in some kind of, you know, more holistic kind of society, basically. Right. And so he really listens in a way that most and I love. I love doctors, I learned so much from doctors, I don't mean to slam them. But this doctor in particular, he just takes that time that you retired about, right? And he he just like Perseids, I remember my mother, because she worked at a hospital. And I remember her talking about how medicine is an art. And all the all the workers knew the best doctors, because they diagnosed, they really were recognizing what you and I are talking about. But nobody had a name for it, that they had some kind of intuition, some medical intuition. They took the facts. Of course, they were very, you know, very well trained. Yeah, there was something about taking all those facts, and then taking the person in front of them. And there was like a magic. Yeah. And they got an answer. Yeah. And, you know, when I was in my training, and as an undergrad, I remember we had a lecture one time and she said, you know, you're gonna come up on times when you're a nurse, and there's a little voice inside you that you just know, something's gonna happen. Or this gut feeling, she said, Never dismissed that gut feeling. Wow. Oh, that's so cool. That was the only time I ever heard that my nurses training love that. So Right. Are you really are like, your whole life is? Yeah, a couple of times, like, in my early nursing practice, I would just have this intuitive knowing that. And, and sure enough things, you know, things would play out how I how I thought or, you know, interesting, that way and, you know, when you just I just want to comment really quickly about dissing, I guess, you know, medical providers, I don't medical provider, right. But the thing is, is that they're stuck in the system, the system perpetuates this doctors, most doctors, I mean, you know, we could are people that are in the medical or healing professions go in because they want to help people. I mean, you know, yeah, there's money to be made and all that kind of stuff. But in general, they want to help people and then you just get disillusioned because, you know, you have to see a minimum of 23 a day to even, you know, break even eggs. Right. And so the, the system kind of perpetuates, you know, how it is and, you know, which is unfortunate if we're a little healthier to begin with, maybe You wouldn't need the doctor. There's an old Vedic saying, and I forget exactly how it goes. But the doctor would go around with a little money bag on his waist. And if everybody was well in the house, they would pay him. If somebody was sick, he would have to pay them. I love that. Right. I love that. That's so wonderful. Yes, yeah. Well, I also, I have, I don't talk about this much either. But my husband and I did some classes in shamanism because we had a friend who was at the Omega Institute, and she recommended it was only because of her like, we were like Shama what, you know, we'd used to, like, completely clueless. And it definitely, like opened up something in me, because what you're talking about the Vedic, you know, like, they pay him, and he pays them, right. There's just these wonderful healing traditions from 1000s of years ago, that work with another level of consciousness that work on another level, that could supplement in fact, they are people have done studies where shamans are working in mental health centers, and they are supplementing what Western doctors are doing. And it's amazing. And the whole idea, I just really think it's natural to me, because the whole world has very similar ritual practices. You know, why would shaman see the same thing? And why would the ritual be the same? among cultures that don't talk to each other? There must be something common, you know, duck. Yeah, I see it is quite natural, but I couldn't talk about it with a lot of people. But yes, like 2030 years ago, and, but I knew it was real. And I knew like, I went on journeys during these detours. And I knew they were real, I knew that I was touching, like, just an alternate reality like that exists. And I just knew it was real. And the way I explained it to people who were very doubtful was, you know, you believe psychology. And that's like, maybe 130 years old. This is human psychology that's 1000s of years old, that they figured out how to how to work with our psychology, you know, and I just feel like, the more we have people like you, we're combining maybe things that have always been there. Like, I feel like in your story I hear, you always knew there was something more, but we're not allowed to say it or explore it. But now that you're, you're in a place where you can, and you can open up your life to it. And I just think it's great, because I feel like what you said before, when you talk about it, other people are able to say, Yeah, I kind of feel that way too, like we can, can support people, and they don't have to feel funny. Right. And I think, you know, to that point, like I said, I don't know if it was in the beforehand, like this, you know, I live in suburbia. Right? And when I started talking to these other suburban moms, you know, when you open yourself a little bit, and then you hear that they have signs from their departed loved ones. And one lady said to me, oh, my gosh, I just started Reiki, you know, like, and so, you know, these standard issue. suburbia folks start really talking about that, I think is something that we don't do in our world. And I'm going to tell you, there's a I forget which book I read it in, but I've heard it since is that we really had the split of physical body and mind and spirit in the I think it was a 17th century maybe with Rene Descartes. Oh, yeah, I think therefore I am. Yeah. And so what he what happened, I guess, he wanted to like cut bodies open and look to see what's on the inside. And the Pope was like, now, I might be having the story a little bit. This is what I remember from it. Right? The Pope said, You can't do that, you know, it's mind body spirit is all one. Right? That's how we used to think of it. And he said, but I want to look inside bodies. And so that kind of struck up this deal. Okay, you take over the physical. And in my realm, I'll keep the mind and spirit. You know, I'll keep the spirit over here. And so there was this, that was a great division. When it used to be all we were just all one. And even in our medical model as we know it today. And I would tell people this from very early on, we put everything in buckets, here's your gut, here's your nerves. Here's your heart. I said but that's not how our body works is all this that's such a good thing. All everything affects everything, you know, and everything's infused with spirit. It's not it's separate from spirit. I love that. And I think we did. We took a left turn and we we got all rational I call it I have this whole like personal theory. I feel like there's a need in human beings to be spiritual and religious. There's like a need. And so when you're insisting that you're just rational, the more you insist stat, then you're worshiping the rational. And I see lots of people worshipping the rational, which is so upside down. You know, I was like that for a long, long time. And like we were talking earlier, what happened is you surround yourself and you befriend people that are that, right. And I remember, I had this one friend in particular that I was hesitant to tell her any of this stuff, right? And I told her about the pictures, and she just looked at me, like, I'm so sorry for you for like, you know, and that was just a feeling like that. You can't see reality. And I mean, that was just that. And I thought, Well, I'm not gonna talk to her about it, you know? But but you see how, how. I don't know the word. It's like, there's an ego thing, right? It's very smug. Right? Right. It's like, I've got all the answers. And that's your first sign that somebody's you know, they're not maybe where they could be. Right. But it's, it takes a while to get there to be brave enough to what look at this woowoo stuff, because there's a lot of judgment and when we're younger, yeah, especially I think we're like, I want to fit in, you know, right. And that particular friend, you know, we had a, I happen to be with her. I don't know if she'll listen to this podcast, but I happened to be with her. And it was, I think, a year. I don't remember if it was a year, or maybe more years after her mom had passed right there Jewish family. So we had the candles, and we got on zoom with her sister, we lit the candles. We happen to be at her dad's house that her dad wasn't home. And there was a knock on the door. And so like the sister was saying a blessing. I could get the door, you know, so I run open the door. Nobody. Nobody was there. So I get chills thinking about now. I go back to what I said, nobody's at the door. I'm like, it was your mom. And she goes, What's it like, there? She's like, I'm like, It's not my mom. I mean, I love the beautiful practices of Judaism. But like, that's just not possible. And I'm like, But you know what it was at the door. A short time later, the dog walker came and I said to her, were you here a few minutes ago. You knocked on the door a few minutes ago? She goes, No, I want this the first time come here. And I was like, but even even when that happened in her presence, as we were saying the blessing she couldn't remember her mom. She still totally was not part of her paradigm. And that's sad for her mom, but I knew and it to get through. Yeah, I knew it. I knew it's so amazing. Yeah. So I think we're gonna have this is going to be a two parter, I think, Oh, okay. That's okay. Yeah, because we're on a roll. Thanks for listening. And thanks to Susie for sharing so much of her experience. It was super interesting. And we just kept on talking. So we have a part two next week that focuses more on some of the interesting parts of connecting with nature for health. And a little bit more about her plans, Susie's plans for the future and the kinds of healing she wants to do. So thanks again to Susie spell. It was great. And I'll talk to you on the story human