Season 2-- Episode 12. What is a narcissist really? And is a little narcissism not so bad? Ruthann Harpur, a psychologist from the U.K, helps us understand the nuances.

Hello, and welcome back to The Storied Human. Today I'm interviewing Ruth Ann Harpur.She's a psychologist working in the UK. She specializes in narcissism. She works with people who identify as narcissists themselves. She also works with people who have a narcissistic parent or other relative or ex. And she does work with couples where one or both are narcissists. So she's become quite the specialist in narcissism since the pandemic,isn't that right?Yeah, so I went back to work after maternity leave during the pandemic, and kind of fell into working with a few people who had quite narcissistic tendencies and got a lot of specialist training and supervision in that area and seems to be what I do. And it's been quite a surprisingly enlivening and quite challenging and quite fun experience,actually, in lots of ways.And I was very struck. We met on a podcast, Facebook group, and I was asking for guests, and I was very struck that you related some of your work to a story because you know, I'm all about the story. Can you tell me more about that story?Wow, you know, the story of Narcissus. It's an ancient Greek myth. And I think it's something we've kind of forgotten about.We hear about narcissism in popular culture, you kind of hear this big insult. It's used as a very pejorative term. And I think a lot of us have forgotten the story. It's a really human story. And I think if you really slow down and listen to it, you might even recognize bits of yourself in the story. So the story is, Narcissus is he's the child of a rape. And his father is a river God. And his mother is very concerned about him, and wanting him to have a long life.So she seeks advice. And the advice she has is that person will live a long life, so long as he doesn't see himself. And so his mother takes great pains to make sure he never sees himself. So Narcissus doesn't really know who he is. He's got no real sense of who he is what he's about his character, his personality. And he is extremely physically attractive, and a very skilled Huntsman. And people, men and women fall madly in love with them, and he rejects them all. Until one day,he stumbles across a lake. And in the lake, he sees his own reflection, and he falls madly in love with his reflection. And his reflection, of course, he doesn't mean people think Narcissus, falls in love with himself. He doesn't he doesn't know himself. He has no idea who he is. All he has, is this image, this reflection onto which He projects his fantasy of his ideal lover. And of course,every time he tries to grasp his his love, the picture distorts,and the waters ripple and it's a horrifying sight. And then he steps back, the pitcher comes back and eventually, there suspense is life there until he falls into the lake and drowns.Only to emerge as a Narcissus plant, which we know as the daffodil.It is an amazing story I revisited after you mentioned it, and I love the part where it says he even leans down and tries to kiss the image, because he's so struck by its beauty.But I'm just also amazed that it's so applicable. It's so psychologically savvy. There it is an echo to or echo.Well, this is a thing that you know, I think a lot of people know the story of Narcissus to some extent, but they don't realize the original story was never nurses. This is story. The story was echo and Narcissus.And how apt that we've all forgotten echo. So echo is She's a nymph. She's a garden them she's young, she's full of youth. She's beautiful. She's got lots of energy, and the gods like to come to earth to play with the nymphs because they have a great time with them. And Zeus comes to earth and he's playing with echos friends, and Zeus, his wife, Hera. gets suspicious. And so she decides to visit Earth to see what Zeus is up to. An echo sees her coming and distracts her so she chats to her, basically to keep her from finding out what her husband is up to, and here at realizing what echo is done, is absolutely incensed, and she curses her. And rather than take away her voice so she can chat,she takes away her ability to say anything. Apart from the last words she's heard spoken,so Echo can only echo and then echo comes across Narcissus, and like so many others before her falls madly in love with Narcissus, and all Echo can do is repeat back to Narcissus the last words he spoken. So hello,hello, who's there? Who's there?Love you. Love you. Yeah. And basically, she's doomed and eventually, is various tallies of the story. But eventually,Narcissus, becomes angry with her rejects her. And she runs away to the caves where we only ever hear as an echo.It's just so clever and so right on, you know, it's just sort of amazing to me that they knew human psychology so well so long ago. Yeah, absolutely. And we still use that word.We Well, we use narcissism, we don't you echo ism is making a little bit of a wave. At the moment, there's been some discussion about the concept of echo ism. Which is the idea that there are some people who would rather be invisible.Oh, oh, how interesting.would like not to share their own story and will live in the shadow of someone else's story?That is someone else dominate?Yeah. So Craig Malkin is the psychologist who's kind of pushed that concept. It's a really interesting idea. It's like, almost not enough narcissism. Like there's not enough ego, there's not enough sense of yourself and your ability to achieve things and influence things and to tell your own story and to speak your own mind. So he talks about people having a fear of being narcissistic, to such an extent that they let everyone else take the limelight, and they never ever want to be center stage.And you know, if you think about it, you know, people like that.Who doesn't know someone like that? Who doesn't know someone who falls in the other category?We do we run into all kinds of varying degrees of narcissist. I think that's what's been so interesting talking a little bit with you, that, you know, we don't understand there's a spectrum. And that a little bit of narcissism is not so bad,right? A little bit of narcissism,it's really interesting is the interesting divide the concept of narcissism came from. So the first person to use the term narcissism was actually a sex therapist. And he was named for me to look it up of luck, have luck, his name was half luck.And he he had patients who were basically smothering themselves in kisses and masturbating. And he referred to them as narcissists, because they were wildly in love with themselves.And then quite astoundingly,good old Sigmund Freud came along, and desexualize the concept. And he talked about narcissism as being this normal,ego, state and childhood, where a child feels powerful, and they feel capable and competent. And they're centered on themselves and their ability to exert influence on the world. And that it's only as a child grows and develops and learns how to relate to other people learns how to yield a little bit of their ego to someone else and give love away as well as receive it, that they lose their narcissism or becomes where they're able to relate. And he there's a beautiful quote from Freud when I don't normally agree with much of what Freud says, But he said, He who loves becomes humble.So true. It's a it's a lovely quote. Yeah, yeah. So what goes wrong? Like, it sounds like if you accept that it might be a natural phase, right? And that children do learn to care for others. How do they get stuck there?Well, I mean, Freud would have argued that if you don't get the love back, if you don't have that reciprocity with a caregiver if you give out You love, and you get nothing back,you take it all back into yourself. And that's what kind of develops narcissism. And then the concept evolved a lot throughout the 20th century. And there's two big names Heinz Kohut and Otto kernberg, Otto kernberg. Still Life, still very influential in the field. But it's really interesting because when Heinz Kohut was developing his concept of narcissism, he was influenced by Freud and the concept that was healthy stage of human development. And he kind of thought of it as being he was working in private practice with wealthy people in Vienna, at the turn of the 20th century. And, you know, it was a thriving society, there were lots of arts, there was lots of creativity, there are lots of performers, lots of big egos.And he kind of thought about narcissism as, as long as you have your narcissism in check.It's okay. There may be some good aspects to it, he didn't pathologize it so much. I mean,he could recognize that there were ways in which people's narcissism could get out of hand, and cause them problems caused them to be very selfish,very egotistical lady even quite cruel to other people unable to admit their own flaws, unable to acknowledge their own mistakes.But he certainly held on to a concept that there was a level of narcissism that could be healthy. But then, only a couple of decades later, of course,Vienna has changed, there's now the threat of the Third Reich.And that's ESM in Europe. And Otto kernberg, was working in Vienna at that time with, again,a different patient group. He wasn't working with the kind of wealthy private practice patients, and he developed more of the concept of dark narcissism. So narcissism really is pathology, as selfishness as cruel, as dark as potentially leading to abusive behavior. And so he emphasized that angle on it much more. And I think that's influenced our popular conception of narcissism.Although I am seeing now, a few different people like Craig Malkin, and Keith Campbell, and also another one I've read recently, Laurie Hal go, where they're kind of looking at their aspects of narcissism, in the sense of, you know, and it's really, it's so important to see narcissism on a spectrum. And at the extreme end, you can have way too much narcissism you can have, you know, you can be very egotistical, very self centered,although it's interesting where that comes from, we can talk about that as well, because it's not what it seems on the surface, it is the fantasy as the grandiose image that's being presented. But they're kind of talking about some level of positive view of yourself, maybe even slightly rose tinted glasses, where you see yourself as just a little bit more capable than you really are just a little bit, you have a nice positive spin on yourself. And that not necessarily being a bad thing, because it gives you a drive, and it makes you feel competent, and it makes you pursue the things that you want to pursue. But if you have a healthy level of narcissism,what you can do is take feedback on board without being crushed,or without becoming defensive.So you can take it on board, you can reflect on it, you can grow and develop and you can make use of it. And what you can also do unhealthy narcissism is yes, you have big ambitions and big goals. But the goals or the goals for their own sake, is not I have to achieve this in order to be an acceptable person. Or I have to achieve this in order to prove that I'm superior to other people. And actually, what those kind of more healthy narcissists do is they bring other people with them. And they can be quite collaborative in their narcissism. And we, when we talked before I talked about I had a boss very early on in my career, who, in retrospect, I think there was quite a bit of entitlement. He viewed himself as above the hospital rules. He did what he pleased. Always in always in the service of his patients, I mean, if I had the problem he treated, I would be very happy if he was the clinician treating me because you would not get better. You could not get better care than what you got from him. And as someone he mentored and taught you if you didn't get better teaching, you got a lot of his time, a lot of his input, and you got a few privileges flung your way, because he made sure you've got opportunities that other people maybe didn't get.He pulled a few strings. So done a few feet.It's more complex than I think a lot of us Yeah, yeah. That's yeah. Yeah. So when does it slide the other way? Like, when does it become abusive?Yeah, so So even pathological narcissism is not necessarily it's not about abuse. I think this is one of the the sort of problems in the kind of current psychosis that we've come to see narcissism as purely associated with abuse. And not all abusers are narcissists. Not all narcissists are abusers. I mean,narcissism can certainly lead to or contribute to abuse. So don't talk about more what it is, if you think about Narcissus as being in love with that fantasy image. I mean, that's what it is. It's yeah. So people who are very narcissistic, we know they're much more likely to ever had a history of severe emotional neglect, physical abuse, even sexual abuse. And they don't have that core sense of themselves as I'm lovable,and I'm worthy just for being me. What they have is a sense of I have to be exceptional and extraordinary, in order to be a worthwhile human being. Yeah,that's so. So they when they're in a close, intimate relationship, or in any close,intimate relationship, we hurt each other on occasion. Yeah,you're a little bit selfish, you know, you're right. Feelings and don't even realize it, right?Yes. People make mistakes. Yeah.And any healthy relationship involves a good level of repair,where you have to acknowledge how you've affected each other.See, it doesn't have to get out of hand, it doesn't have to be much more in a lot of cases,then simply acknowledge it. Just acknowledging it and apologizing. And understanding each other, and cutting each other. Sorry. Okay, cutting each other a bit of slack and giving each other a bit of grace and forgiveness. There's a lot of that and a healthy relationship.But someone who's strongly narcissistic, can't do that,because that means I have to admit, I made a mistake. I'm not perfect. I'm not superhuman.after all. I'm as flawed and vulnerable as the next person.So rather than say, I'm sorry, I hold my hand up on a you do your fault. You made me do it. Oh,what are you complaining about?It's no big deal anyway. So and that's where they can become very neglectful very critical,very condescending partners, or in any relationship in the workplace. Same thing, as a parent, same thing. And as parents, they may really struggle with their child's weakness and vulnerabilities,because they may view the child as a reflection on that. Which is a lot of pressure potentially, on a child really tough. It can be very tough to have a parent that way. I've seen that with with friends of mine. Yeah. But I think it's I think it's really important.What you can help people with is understanding that there's a lot of shades of this, because in popular culture, it's just like narcissist equals bad, you know?Yeah,well, and it's also narcissist equals grandiose and grandiose.And this is the interesting thing, because I know you said it's a lot of men. You know,classical narcissism is more prevalent in men, what we think of as narcissism, grandiose narcissism. But I think there's now a recognition that narcissism presents in different ways. And you can have what's called vulnerable narcissism,which can be more or covert narcissism. They're slightly different concepts. But it's more like I get my specialness and my sense of superiority by being the person who sacrificed the most being the martyr the most being the martyr,like God. Lastly, women.Yeah, and that's the more narcissistic presentation in women. Or you also give what's called the communal narcissist,which is, I'm the most charitable giving person in the room. So I'm the most empathic,I'm the most kindest person. So it can go different forms. And I think the other thing I think it's really helpful to think about narcissism is it's a, it's a way of regulating self esteem.And so what you'll find is,someone who's very narcissistic,will swing between feeling like on top of the world, the most special, amazing person, one moment to author self loathing and worthlessness. The next Whoa. And you will often see as well a big discrepancy between the nurses First, who is in public? The CEO who's like, look at me, I'm the center of the universe. I'm so amazing. Behind closed doors of home, do you think people like me? Do you think they think I'm useless? Do you think you're actually really questioning themselves? But you don't see that vulnerability?So it's never enough really right? For those of you know,never enough?No. And I think a lot of it, of course, is because it's, it's the pursuit of a fantasy. Right?The pursuit of an ideal, it's the image in the water.You, oh, image in the water,that's so true. Back to the mid back to the mind, there's the image and the water that you can never truly grasp. And what I'll often say to the kind of narcissistic people I work with is like, well, you know, what you're gonna have to do is have a real relationship. So you know, you can have this fantasy that you're giving your partner like some sort of superpower couple. But actually, the reality is, you're both flawed human beings. Do you want to have the experience of accepting each other as you are?Yeah, that's at the heart of it.Yeah, with a few rough edges on occasion.Yeah, if you just chase a fantasy, you're going to always be disappointed. And that just sounds to me, like, I don't know if this is really related. But people always say like, once you became a whip, become aware of your ego, you realize that nothing will ever be enough for your ego. So you have to be aware, you have to, you have to say, No, I choose this life. And but the ego, if you're not aware of it will always whisper in your ear. Well, you know, you really, you could use a bigger house or you could be thinner,are you successful enough,you're not really making enough money, there's always a whisper.You could have more, you could be more you could. And that kind of life is a desperate life, you know, a reactive kind of you're reacting to the ego telling you,you're just not enough.And it's also a very restless life. Yeah, because there's no ability to just be like, I'm going to enjoy this. I'm going to enjoy the home I have. It's modest.It's so wonderful, though, to reach that point. And I think there's like a tendency of people now to talk about mindfulness, and to talk about taking a breath, and to talk about appreciating what they have. And to just get quiet,more people are meditating. I mean, I'm hoping that it's, you know, turning that it's that people are saying, well, this is not healthy, you know, to constantly be chasing,although then some people will chase the the thing the most spiritual person in the room.Oh, that's the ego concern.Whatever you wherever you go,your ego may get you have to be really careful. It's so true. Yeah. Birch, virtuous or the most new age or the most,you know, spiritual. You have to be really careful.The Checkout? Yeah, yeah. I really like the the kind of concept of self compassion for narcissists. Like, it's like,and you know, and I'll often say to them, I wish you knew you were okay. As you are. Oh, I like your house is okay. Your home is okay. Your job is okay.Your partner is okay. Not perfect. Okay. And that's okay.You don't have to be perfect.Yeah. Actually being able to accept yourself as you are. And being able to tolerate that you have some weaknesses, actually means that you it's, it actually makes you less permissive with yourself, because you're able to be like, actually, I'm really hurting myself. You know, I'm hurting myself by losing my temper and shouting at my partner and blaming her for everything. Or I'm hurting myself by using lots of alcohol and substances to cope with my emotions, rather than acknowledge that I feel really terrible about something. These are things that are hurting me actually gives you the courage to face those things. Yeah,because you're not crushed. You know, I'm still a worthwhile person. I'm a worthwhile person with these really big struggles with my ego.I think that's lovely. I mean,it just seems to me it must become a habit. Just constantly picking it yourself. Constantly driving yourself to do something else to be the best. It must be exhausting.Oh, yeah. No, it is a very, I mean, I think that's the tragedy of kind of pathological narcissism is the egos never satisfied. So it's constant pursuit of more, or and somehow or is being frozen because what you can achieve is never enough.Not to. Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, so, you know, I don't see this so much because I work in private practice, but I've certainly come across where someone's like, I can't take this job because it's not a good enough job. I can take this relationship because it's not a good enough relationship. I'm going to wait to something brilliant comes along, but actually, well, you know, what,are you doing? Nothing? Yeah,it'd be far better off to do something and Let things evolve in time and be satisfied.Because this is very, I'm relating to this heavy duty because I have,I'm looking for a job now. And I'm often looking for a job,because I'm a consultant. And I have to stop myself sometimes. I have to say that that job is great, and it's super big deal.And you're like, too tired and too old to restart that? You know? Yes, it's wonderful. And when you feel special if you had that job, but it's really not what fits your lifestyle right now. It's really, you know,there's a lot of shiny objects,you know,but then you have a to me,that's a perfect example of self compassion. Because you're able to say, Hang on, what do I need?So my ego, and my self esteem,might really like to have that big, impressive consultants job.But you know what, I have other things in my life that are just maybe even a little more important to me,that I'd fall for that time,money, you know, won't won't be a big deal. I've fallen for that a lot in my life. And now I say,I know what that high money means. Means injury and long hours. Not being treated. Well.Usually, that's sort of what goes along with the whole,because I work in information technology. So it's kind of brutal. It's a young person's game. And it's very competitive and lots of layoffs. And it's a crazy world. So yeah, but it's funny, we were talking. I'm part of a podcasting Group. We all took a course together. And we talk a lot about mindfulness and about how you can, you should treat yourself the way you should treat a really good friend. Like somebody said,Well, what would you say to a friend who was in that position?And usually, you'd be more compassionate to that friend?Well, why can't you be like that to yourself? You know, what would you say, friend? That has been so simple, but useful for me to remind myself, well, I would give that person a break.You know, why aren't I giving myself a break? Yeah, it's just really good to revisit these things. Yeah. Well, my sense is that you help a lot of people.Well, I try. Yeah, I'm making a lot of sense today.Yeah.Is there anything you'd like us to know? Like that you wish more people knew about? I think I wish people knew narcissism was not a.There's lots of things I wish people knew. I wish I knew it wasn't just a disorder of excessive self love. You know,there's, there's no such thing as too much self love. Okay.None of its genuine. None of his I genuinely love and care about myself. None of it's like I'm the best person in the room. Of course. You know, that can cause problems for you. But it really is a disorder of self loathing,and worthlessness. And it's all compensation. Yeah, you never you would never guess you never guess.That's fascinating. So it's really that you hate yourself.And you can never do enough to remedy that.Yeah. Yeah.Well, how that sounds like a curse, like a modern day Greek curse to me.Yeah, well, and it's also like,you know, the Greek Christmas is never to know yourself. And I think, you know, I look at the kind of narcissists, I work with the people who identify as narcissists. And they've often had these very harsh childhoods,with very demanding parents,they've often not had a lot of love not had a lot of warmth and not have a lot of nurturing.They have to achieve, they have to strive to be okay. And I always say, I just wish you knew you were okay. And they'll say,that's not good enough for me.That's not enough for me to be okay. Don't patronize me with that crap. You know, it's really hard. And I often have to remind myself like, this is this is a little, little boy or little girl underneath this.Oh, yes.You had a wonderful week. I know. I do. Sometimes they ask them to give me a photograph of when they were little long, so I can when they're really pushing a few buttons at mine, I can look at the photo.I love that. Yeah.That's a good question that you have for them.Yeah, I know. It gets like that with people like in a competitive society. People are so ridiculous, like, oh, I don't want to be normal either.There's a feeling like I don't want to be normal. I want to be high achieving, I want to be like a big deal. I want to be successful at any.But we can all be. But this is the thing is like that requires everyone to be extraordinary.And we can all be extraordinary.No, it would not function if everyone was extraordinary. We couldn't function if everyone was the CEO, there would be no company.That's a very good point.Anybody?Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know and I think the other thing i Another thing I wish people really knew about narcissism as well as it's not mean there is pathological narcissism there is a disorder,narcissistic personality disorder, which is a disorder of narcissism. But that's not all there is to narcissism. We all have narcissism within us to some extent. And we all need a bit we, you know, because the other extreme is Echo and who we're not talking about, because no one ever talks about echo.But you know, we all do that then we we all on occasion, have our egos get carried away, we all get no, I always think if you have something that's just really special to you really pressures. And someone insults it. Oh, my God, the defensiveness comes out, does it? Yes. Yeah. You know, someone insults your podcast, how dare you.I would not be happy.You react. And it's like, you know, it's, we all do that, or we all have like, sort of buttons that we don't want to be pressed things that we are sensitive about, because it's too painful to go there. And so we protect ourselves, and maybe by being defensive or condescending, or putting someone down or picking ourselves up to be seen as a little bit more superior than we really are.Yeah. And we know what I mean,when I get in those modes. I realized later that I negated maybe some good, good advice.That would have been helpful,but I couldn't hear it.Yeah, that's potentially harm to relationship.Yeah, that's probably true.About me, and a lot of people I know. So there are there threads of narcissism, like running through a lot of people, and it's even unnecessary thing. Are we like you said we would never push ourselves forward? Maybe?Yeah, well, and it's like, if you think about it, you know,you can define narcissism as well as, like an ordinary human desire to feel special. And if you didn't have that,particularly younger people, you know, people get less narcissistic, generally with age. And that's the, that's the overall pattern. But you know,and younger people, you do kind of need that little bit of a, to put yourself out there, too.You know, thinking like, I'm not going to be like my parents. I'm going to do better than my parents. I'm not gonna have that print job. Yeah, that kind of like, the callate. The Colonus of you.Right? Yeah. And I don't think that's, it can it can have a bad effect, taken to extremes. But on some level, it's also necessary, it is necessary know,where would we be if that nobody had any ego? If nobody had any narcissism at all? Would we have the progress we have in science and technology in the arts and creativity? Would we have it if no one was prepared to be like,I'm gonna do this better than anyone who's done it before?Yeah.That does lead to some amazing breakthroughs. Yeah, I'm sure we, we sort of need everybody.We just don't need the extremes.Right? We don't need those extremes.narcissists. Yeah. Are the extremes need to come with some balance?Yeah, this has been amazing. I,I am really grateful that you're doing this kind of work, because I think, you know, a lot of people really need it.And I think Do you want to? Do you want to talk about echo? Oh,yes. I'd love to talk about echo. Because we show it because we shouldn't ignore her? No, no,it's important.Because I, you know, I often think about echo as being the person who sits on the sidelines. And who doesn't have their own story, or doesn't tell their own story, because they can't speak it as my husband back. And in, particularly, when I work with people have come out of quite abusive relationships.What they often don't, they definitely don't know who they are and say, I don't even know who I am. You know, they're like, yeah, they echo and in some ways that that lack of ego,that lack of AI, knowing yourself and liking yourself,and being willing to put yourself forward and out there and can leave you sitting in other people's shadows. And that can leave you quite vulnerable to someone who was quite happy to have you in the shadow to be that way. We've all known especially women who who are like that I've known several women in my life who are like that, or they become like that. They just sort of, you know, there were young when they met someone, the person, you know, he seemed dashing and charming and very strong personality and then something you know, sort of goes awry, and he becomes dominant and she forgets who she is or doesn't know who she is.Yeah. And that what I also find as well with those kind of echo issues. I know the right word,as you know, the sort of more that sort of personality of being in the shadows and being sort of withdrawn and particularly in this survivors of abuse, what sometimes we'll find is that they almost have this focus on narcissism now.It's the narcissist and I'm like, you know, if you look at that sort of picture of echo and Narcissus at the pole, and I was gazing at him longingly, you know, I'm like, you're still gazing at him. Oh,there's two sides. Yeah, you might be gay.You know, it may have been that at one time you gaze that him in desire. And now you gaze at him in disgust and loathing be still gazing at him. Yeah, you got to get up and walk around. And you've got to discover you're going to have the courage to start discovering yourself.So there's got to be changes on that side, too. Yeah. Or you're just going to fall into the same thing again. Yeah.And I'm like, get to know yourself. Explore can be a wonderful journey. Takes a lot of courage to do and you can start very small, but you got to explore you got to try out things. You've got to see what you like, what you dislike what surprises you explore lots of friendships, lots of relationships, and try out different patterns.Yeah, that's wonderful. So that's the other side of it.Like there's when there's a narcissist, there's often an echo. Yeah. Yeah.And both of them need to stop gazing at a reflection. I know we talked before about that,that scene in Harry Potter that was just like, oh, look, JK Rowling took a bit of Narcissus there, where the Harry is looking in the mirror of air said, which is the mirror of desire. And he's how he sees his family. And he can't take his eyes away from it. And Dumbledore tells him grown men have starved to death looking in this mirror.So perfect. And it's like, we can let our fantasies actually rob us of all the good things in life.You know, that's so powerful,and it scares the heck out of me, because so many people spend so much time on their computers,myself included. And there are days when I just have to, like pull myself off of it. And get outside in the real world, like in the sunshine. And I worry that maybe there's there's an imbalance, you know, people are looking at content that can't take their eyes off of it's an addictive kind of thing.Yeah, well, it's that content is this is my fantasy of what I'm going to create what I'm going to do, and I'm going to be amazing, and I'm like, No, you know it, you gotta get out, you gotta live, you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna screw up.That's how you learn. warts and all. Yeah, warts and all, and you're gonna have to, like,accept yourself, warts and all.And your partner.Yeah, we're not those polished,perfect people that we see. No.Nose, you people are striving to be and it's just, it is it's a fantasy. Well, that was like, so fun. I can't even believe it,you gave so many interesting points about the myth, which I love bringing that back into focus. And, again, I'm amazed that the Greeks had were so savvy. And also the, you know,the narcissism is not necessarily one thing that's really bad. The spectrum is important to remember. So Ruth,then you've given us a lot of food for thought, and I love it.Is there anything you'd like to wrap up with?You know, I choose, I think what I'd really like to get across is how much of a human thing narcissism is. It's not there's out there thing that bad people have. It's part of all of us to some extent. And it's not even a bad part of all of us. And I kind of hope it, I hope this is a discussion that maybe provokes some thought, allows people to reflect a bit on themselves allows people maybe to see narcissism in 3d, rather than just the image of narcissism that we have all adopted to some extent. And maybe it makes for a bit more nuanced dialogue about it. But thank you so much for having me, because it's been really fun to talk to you and have the opportunity to come on your podcast. And it's so fun talking to you. Thanks for reaching out, and make sure that you, you know, we're going to include in the show notes,all of the people that you mentioned, all the psychologists that you mentioned, and if there's a place for people to contact you, if they have Yeah, so I can tell you a few things. I can I'll give you a link to all of the psychologists I mentioned and their books. And what I'll also do is I'll give you a link to my website, so I have a few things that people are interested in. I have my own YouTube channel. I'm on Tik Tok on Instagram, but I'm mostly on YouTube as well. That's me.How do you say? Yeah, I mean, but obviously, I have my private practice. But what I'm also doing now is developing some online courses. For people who have at the moment it's for people have come out of abusive relationships. So people are very welcome to look those up.And join me if they'd like to connect with me on social media,say hello. And we can extend the conversation about how to connect with you. I do include a lot of things in the show notes, but people don't always read the show notes. So okay, so if you look up at Dr. Ruth and Harper, and Harper's AARP, you are on Youtube, Instagram, or Tiktok. and my website is www dot Ruth Harper dot code at UK.Great. So. And thank you so much. And thank you for letting me give myself a little narcissistic plug. My putting myself out there.I really appreciate it. It was interesting. Yeah.But I do you know, I love this part of the internet, because I think it's what I love about podcasting is it's not narcissistic, it actually rubs that edge off. Because it becomes a very collaborative thing. Because you end up I get to tell this story, because you gave me a platform and facilitated that discussion, and your podcast, kind of platforms that in a way. And so it's this very collaborative process where we have to cooperate. And I like this. This is what I love about this part of the internet. And this part of social media at the moment is podcasting. Because I think it's building genuine connection and much more nuanced conversation. And it also isn't putting one person as the guru above all others. Yeah. So it is this wonderfully collaborative space.It's so fun to share. I just love sharing people's stories,and I learned so much. It's really a selfish endeavor. I have to say.How lovely. How lovely to get.It all works out. All right.Thank you so much,and I really appreciate it.