Confidently Called: Mary & Martha on Women in Ministry, Submission, and Everyday Spiritual Wisdom

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I am Mary Alessie. And I'm Martha Munizzi. And you are listening to the Mary Martha Show. Yes.

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And watching. Hopefully they're watching.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Well, hopefully they're watching. Because our hair looks really good today.

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My hair just fell into place.

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Your hair looks the bomb.

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Yours does too. You look great.

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Well, but people need to know something about you and me.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Okay.

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You're a hair person.

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Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

I am not a hair person.

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I grew up with Vera Fawcett, so people from the 80s know what I'm talking about.

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And you would get up early before school to do your hair. I would slick my hair back in a ponytail and say, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

I know, not me. And I would fix other people's hair. You fix my hair. I'd get up early and just start fixing people's hair. That's my thing. I'm a hair person.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

You would say you will not embarrass me. You look just like me. And you're not gonna go. In eighth grade? Yeah. Because that cute boy's gonna think I'm you and I'm not you. Fix your hair.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Fix it. I remember those days. Oh, yeah. Yes. Those are important days.

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And I'm sipping on peppermint tea.

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I'm sipping on peppermint tea. But you look gorgeous. You look gorgeous, sister. You look beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

And I'm glad to be, I'm glad to be doing this this podcast again. We've had some really good, you know, we just started, we just launched this, and people are really responding it. So thank you to everybody who's watching and listening. We hope you're loving it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I hope so too. This is a lot of fun. It is. This is a lot of fun. It is fun. And we have a lot to say. And we we spend a lot of time talking about what do we want to say when we get in this booth? Because our husbands listen to us talk on the phone constantly. So uh I, you know, they're like, just get in the booth and talk. Yeah. You guys just need to talk. Yep. And uh I, you know, I wanted to call this podcast confirming the obvious, right? We can confirm the obvious because we're at this season of our life where now things are just obvious. I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I mean, and and when you get to be our age, you you've been through so many things. Like I always like to say, I don't know everything, but I do know some things. Right? I don't know everything, but I know some things.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I I like to say I don't know everything, but I know a lot of things. Oh, that's that's even better.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Um that's even better.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Slightly, slightly more arrogant. I gotta lay that down at the altar. I know a lot of things. I know I know. Yeah. And I don't think that's pride. I think that's collecting information over the years.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

And when you And at some point sharing it, what you've learned.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

And when you see what people walk through and the decisions they make and the fruit that comes of it, you just realize, okay, that's not the direction you want to go. Or yes, that's the direction you want to go. You learn. You learn from watching other people too.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

You do. You know, being twins, um, oh, I have to tell you the story. Oh, I have to tell you the story. Good stories. Tell me. Okay. So two Sundays ago, I preached here at the church, and I preached a message called Mind Your Business. And it was about um being mindful of the things that you can control and the things that you can change, yeah, which is only you. So mind your heart, right? Mind the areas of your mind, mind your soul, mind your attitude, mind it well. Yeah. Instead of being so focused on other people. So I told the story of you and me when we were young, we were little girls, and how I went into, we were at the mall shopping with mom. You remember this? I think so. And we we lost you, we couldn't find you. Yes. So mom was frantic. I knew you weren't lost. I knew you were being a busybody, smelling perfumes, you were smelling butterflies, chasing butterflies, and trying on lips, lip gloss somewhere. So I knew that you had forgotten to mind your business and you just started walking off and we're just somewhere, right? You weren't even thinking about the fact that you might be lost. So I was so mad. I was so mad because mom was upset, she was ready to call the police because we thought we lost you. And I'm like, we haven't lost her. Give me a minute, I'll go find her. So I start looking through the mall, and I'm mad. Mom's frantic, but I'm mad. And as I'm looking through every store, I look into one store and through the rounders of clothes, I see the figure, and I say, There she is. And I stop and I start yelling at you. I can't believe you. Where were you? Mom's so upset. And all of a sudden I realize I'm yelling at a mirror. I'm yelling at myself. And I I tie I tagged it in to say, sometimes the person you're really mad at is you.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

And you're just looking at a reflection. But here's what was funny from that message. Nobody believed me. I'm like, what why wouldn't you believe my story? Well, because they're not twins. Right, right. So they don't understand that from our vantage point, right? That was real. So the next day, I'm here at the church and there's a set of twins. They're like eight or nine, little girls. I went, girls, come here. And I tell them the story. I didn't even get halfway through it, and one of the twins said, Oh, I've done that. Yeah. I've done that. I've yelled at the in the mirror. And I so I ran back to the staff and I said, I want you guys to know, you guys who didn't believe me. Come on. It's a twin thing. Because they were trying to understand in their single person mind something that only happens to twins. They can't. And the truth is that's profound. It really is. Because there are some things that you can't understand until you get there. Yeah. That's oh, that's good. You can't and even in this topic that we want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

We've been there, we've done that, we bought the t-shirt, we paid the price for it. We have the experience, yes. We can speak to this from our vantage point. Right. And uh I want you to go first because we're gonna talk about what it actually looks like. What does the Bible say about women in ministry? So you tackle it soon.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Okay, I would love to talk about this, women in ministry, because I think we've heard so many voices speak against women in ministry. There's so many people talking, and it can get confusing. And then there's more women in ministry now than ever before. Before, yeah, when we were younger, we didn't really have the models that we have now. It's so amazing to see the models. And again, it's not just for women, but it's for people of all ages, because the Bible says in the last days, I'll pour out my spirit on all flesh, my sons and daughters. And I think it's not just a female thing. I think young men, young just from different walks of life, they even question, can I lead out? Do I have a voice? What, what can I do? And for young women and for young men, I would encourage them, first of all, make sure you're called. And make sure you know you've got a calling and not you just want a microphone. That's good. Or you want to make sure, you know, that you've really heard from the Lord, or that's a desire that uh comes from God. And how do we how do we know that? Well, I think I've spent too many years over the years really being too introspective about I've got these deep desires. What if God doesn't want me to do this and I have this craving to do it? Well, I've learned if I'm praying about something, the Bible says, delight yourself in the Lord, he will give you the desires of your heart. So if I'm spending time with him, if I'm praying, if I'm seeking the Lord, pursuing him, then his desires are now implanted in me. So what I'm pursuing is not even from me. It doesn't originate from me. So if I start to see myself speaking or teaching, when I know it's outside of my comfort zone or even outside of my gifting, then I know God, that's a God calling that's pulling me into another season. So right there, don't be so introspective and spend so much time. Am I called? Am I? Yes, you're called. You're called to use your voice, you're called to use your testimony, you're called to share your story. And then God's responsible for putting you where he wants you. But what we're responsible for is making sure am I submitted to authority? Am I willing to use the authority God's given me, but yet take correction? You know, it's all of these things. And most people are more ready than they think, but they just want to, they just want to be perfect at it. They want to be good at it the first time they do it. And you know, and I know that's just not the way it works. No. You're not great at singing the first time you sing, you're not great at skating, you're not great at baseball. You start somewhere and you develop, you get your 10,000 hours in, as they say. It takes time, but it's also submission to authority. It's also coming up under a pastor, leaders that can help you and kind of uh really make sure your heart is right before you get up and because let me tell you something. If you get up in front of people and start sharing and start ministering, you're not ready for what comes after that. Like even yeah, even in your own flesh, you experience that that transparency and hangover. I know you we've talked about that before. You know, you get up and you share and you're so bold, and then you come off and the enemy just attacks you, or your own flesh feels so uncomfortable, you spend the next 24 hours going, I'm never doing that again. What did I think I look stupid? I sounded you got to overcome a lot to be a leader.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Right, you do, you do. And and you know, I think you said it, the Bible says that many are called, but few are chosen.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

I I have wanted to change that scripture verse, even though the Bible says you're not supposed to change the word. But I like to say many are called, few have chosen. And the have chosen part is where are you called? That's right. So, yeah, you're called, we're all called. The Bible says we're all called as believers, but where are you called? And that's where it gets sticky. So, where am I called? Yes, and if we're gonna talk mainly about women, we know a lot of women in ministry. We've been raised with strong women in ministry. Yes, our moms, you're our mom, very strong in ministry, raised us to be strong. Our husbands um were raised by strong women that loved ministry, didn't have any problem with strong women. Right. And we came up in a different generation, Martha, than our daughters are coming up with. Yes. It's different. And we were talking about this earlier, that um in in our generation, we were apologists. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Oh, just thank you. I'm sorry, I was just angry using me. Well, then we got sick of saying we're sorry. Right. And now it's like the the attitude has been adopted that there's a chip on my shoulder, and men are against me, and the world's against me, and I have a voice, and I'm called, and um, you know, why can't women be used? And we've adopted, I think, the spirit of the culture into the church, and it's it has really kind of um clouded the calling and choosing where you're called.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

So you and I were both called to go into church ministry and serve. So we were called, but we were called to serve. Yes. And and both play where you served originally, it wasn't an easy place to serve.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And you you spend a good season in the in in the trenches developing a heart that and this is what really bothers me right now, Mary, is that it seems as if the principles that we were raised on, or even what the Bible says, is being so challenged now. You know, like if you go through anything, everything is toxic leadership and pastors are toxic or, you know, or or whatever. I know, like, really? I'm so grateful for those seasons in my life where I worked under people that were, I don't I wouldn't use the word toxic, but they kind of were. But they were just humans. They were in their flesh, they weren't, but God used that to show me you can't keep a good man down. Like, don't worry about them. I'm gonna count it to you double. If you work for somebody that abuses you, treats you wrong. If you are good to them and and and stay, keep your heart, Second Peter talks about it, keep your heart right towards somebody who treats you bad, you get double honor. I mean, in God, He nothing goes overlooked, nothing is ever pushed aside. You you never, God never says, Well, you just, you know, unfortunately, you just worked for a bad pastor and had a bad experience. Well, all of those things have taught me something. Should pastors be toxic? Should they be narcissistic? No, clearly. But if in the case where you were young and you maybe got got chosen to be in an environment like that, God can use that. If again, if that doesn't give someone permission to abuse us, but it also means that even if I have been mistreated, that God has conditions for that too. If I'm serving him, you know, and I think one thing that would have helped me back in the day, and I should have learned this, I learned it later in my life, but I gotta lead without apology. You said it a minute ago, the I'm sorry. You know, it doesn't need for me to be apologetic. I just need to be authentic. I don't have to apologize, I just have to lead with confidence in who God called me to be. You know, and it's taking me a minute because there's go.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

I want to interject something right there. Instead of saying, I'm sorry, just say, I'm grateful. Yeah. I'm thankful for this opportunity, for this moment. And that's you and I, yeah, where we would always check one another. I don't have to keep saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That's useless. Yeah. I'm just grateful. When people compliment you or when people use you, or whatever the situation is that might be a roadblock for you, just go back to saying, Lord, I'm just thankful that you use me anywhere. Anyway, I just wanted to do that.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

No, that that is a great exercise. It's not, it's not something you even have to feel. You might feel afraid, but it's the exercise of gratitude. And I've shared this story before, but I remember when I first started traveling and I would go to churches and and people were just so hungry, and I would just start praying and laying hands on people and prophesying and speaking and singing and ministering over people. And then I'd go home and spend the week getting beat up in my mind. And it was those, it was, you know, what are you doing? Second guessing myself, you're not a prophet. You don't have, you know, you don't, you know, you're stepping way out. You were wrong about these things you were saying, and you're gonna, and I would just cringe the rest of the week and I'd say, God, I'm not doing it again. Do you know? I've shared that story so many times, and in the even in the last few days, I've had young women come up to me and said, I heard you share. I'm 30 years old, I heard you share that story, and that helped me so much. So even in those seasons that I had to go through it, I've authentically shared it, and it's helped people way younger than me.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

No, well, you and I both know that if you're gonna say, I'm called to ministry, your first order of business will be to have to completely kill yourself. Yes. And I don't mean that in the flesh, I mean that in the spirit. But you have to share that marriage. Yourself has to die.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Well, you've shared that with me over the years. You've you need to talk about that because that is so strong about what has to die so that you can flow in confidence and authority.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

You know, I think you have to first say, I'm walking into this. I don't fully understand because there's no way that I can. I've never been down this road before, but I'm gonna follow people. And again, I'm gonna throw it back at you because you said something on the phone the other day that was like boom. Follow people. If you're called, the where that you're called should automatically be through wisdom. Yes. Get around people that climb that mountain. And you said this the other day. You want to be around people, even today, that say, Oh, I just came from that way.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

I I just got through that. It's tough, but it's good for you. Or don't go that way. Right. I I went that way, don't go that way. And you want to be around people that will share the journey with you. Yes, and tell you I've laid hands on people and it was powerful, and people fell, and all these amazing things happened in ministry. But on Monday morning I went home and I couldn't even hardly sleep because all I could think about was what a fool I am. Okay, that's real.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

The devil uses all that to torment you. Absolutely. But when you know that comes with the calling, yeah, you have to overcome that. That's right. That's what has to die.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

What else comes with the calling? Yeah. The fact that you have to submit to authority. Yes. You'll never understand what it feels like to walk in the harvest of submission until you submit. Yeah. You don't even realize what's on the other side. Submission is a supernatural exchange. Yes. And until you submit and you do it, you don't just say it. You actually are in a position where when you disagree with a leader, when you disagree with a situation, and you say, Lord, I will submit to this process.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I will submit to this process. And we're not talking about abuse. That's ridiculous. I mean, I heard a podcast recently, and it makes me mad. I'm just going to say it makes me mad when the when everything that's discussed is from the marginal experiences that are few and far between. And it's painted with this brush that all leadership, all pastors, all churches burn you out, and they're going to use your gift, and they're going to throw you, you know what? Just stop. Right. There are those churches, and I understand. But there are millions more that are grateful for the people who walk in their calling.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

And millions more and let's be really, really honest, okay? Nobody is, you know, in in America is dying because they worked early at church on Sunday. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh, come on. You're you're what are you doing? Thank you. What what what are we really doing on Sundays? It's the best day of the week.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

We just X'd out the part that God sees in God blessings. We just went boop, man used you, man abused you. Well, you said you were called. Exactly. Did you not say you were called?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Jesus went to the cross. Okay, well, we're just gonna get upset here. But no, it's true. And again, I think that's why it's important at the stage of our lives that we're in that we're sharing. You know, I what we've been through and what we've had to overcome. David had to fight 31 kings before he was the king. You know, I mean, he had to overcome a lot, and then he still failed when he got the kingship. So let's not be so quick to think, you know, that leadership is dominance, that we dominate and that we're strong. I mean, no, leadership is is if people are not coming to you and because you're you have a spiritual authority on your life, then and they're asking you for guidance, you need to get back into a place of servanthood and really trust the Lord. And when we make it about us, that's what I've learned. When I get insecure, it's when I've become so self-focused. When I start getting agitated and frustrated, it's because I'm looking to myself. That when when Dan, my husband, first started, your brother-in-law, uh, you know who he is. Um, when he, when we first first started, yeah. When we first started pastoring, you know, he was very comfortable behind the scenes, you know, working with people. He's great one-on-one. But then that feeling of like, no, I need to, I don't want to just be the guy on the front row. I need to share the stories that I have. I need to share from my ability. Well, he would get up and share on Sunday, and I mean that Monday morning would hit hard, you know, and you're like, did that sound okay? Did I, that sounded dumb? Like all those things. We don't, we don't think about that. What pastors and leaders and speakers go through in their flesh after you've share, especially if you move prophetically or you're speaking from a spiritual place, God will use you to say strong things or say absolutely say things to people. I mean, I've had people get mad at me, write me emails, very rare, but they'll say, How dare you share my personal things from the platform? I'm like, I don't even know you. Like got mad at me. But it's like the Holy Spirit used it to speak truth, and they just felt so singled out. But I had no idea. I didn't know. Most people receive it and go, Oh, how did you know? Thank you, Jesus. But there's that all, you know, that one. But and then you have to feel that again, it's the attack of the enemy. You know, you have to overcome these things. And the stronger you get and the more submitted you are, then you have the opportunity to call and say, Okay, I'm feeling this. You I've called you so many times, and you'd say, Okay, that's that's not that's your flesh, you know, or no, you that hey, that's you said you were called. You know, having somebody that you just remind you.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Were you submitted to God in that moment? Yes. Were you submitted to leadership? Yes. Did you have authority to walk in that? Yes. All right, then there's nothing here except the demonic attack from the enemy because you had faith over fear. And when we walk in that and we step out in that, and as women, which I hate saying that, people can see that we are women, but as women, we are being told even now that um because we're women, the Bible says that we shouldn't operate in that. And here's the problem with hearing those things. Um it only adds to those layers, even like Danny's a man, and he had to face intimidation and overcome his fear. But he's a man. Well, why he's a man, it's a man's world, and he should not well, but we, regardless of our gender, we all have to overcome fear. Intimidation and always wanting to apologize. But we have to go back to the reality and not even get into the arguments because the Bible, if people try to quote the Bible about should women be in ministry, some say no, some say yes. Right. So it's just one of those, okay, well, forget the argument. If you feel like you're called, man or woman, you're gonna have the same battle. That's right. And sometimes I'm gonna have to overcome the same struggles.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

And sometimes it even comes from a place of I'm not getting enough encouragement. I'm not getting enough praise. I'm not I've had to battle that. Like when you step out into a new area, even singing, you know, or over the like I needed that follow-up of somebody saying that was great, or man, what a great word. And in the last three or four years, I've had to die to all of that. Because honestly, people just expect you to be good. Right. They didn't come here because they thought you weren't going to be good. You know, you you have to, again, that's just stepping into another spiritual authority, a place of spiritual authority, of knowing I did what God told me to do, I said what God told me to say, and if nobody says anything, that's fine. I have, you know, I have three kids, and some of them will go, oh my gosh, mom, that was a home run. Oh, then some won't say a word. You know, and I've had to learn to just don't even worry about it. You know, they're still here, they're still coming, they're still a part of what we're doing. I don't need praise of man. I need it, but I can't need it. I have to let it go. And because I have to have a vision of where in the in a the authority of God that I want to lead, think about Deborah. You know, Deborah in Judges 4, she is a judge in Israel. God chose her to be a judge. And the the whole nation of Israel was very reluctant. They were a very reluctant nation. And here they're being attacked again. And the the commanding officer said, Deborah, you got to go with me into battle. See, that's what I have to keep my mind into it a place where of authority, like, I got to go into battle. I can't be worried about, did you like it? Was it good? Did I say no? I can't, I gotta throw that off and say, God, I'm going into battle. If my voice is strong, it's strong. It's your anointing anyway that breaks the yoke. It's not even me. That's why we have to die to the flesh. And then Deborah said, okay, if if you want to, if you want to say a woman did it, all right, let's go. I mean, she had a little, she was a little spicy. And then not only was she leading into battle with her spiritual authority, but she delivered a message. She just had a message and she said, Has not the Lord gone before you? See, I gotta stay in a place of spiritual authority and confidence that I can speak to the people in my life, regardless of gender and age, and say, has God not gone before you? Have you do you not realize the authority that you have?

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Exactly. And you and I, we're talking from a vantage point of having a microphone in our hand and a church to speak to or churches to sing to. And we're talking about it from that vantage point. But the truth is, this answer and what you're talking about will um, I think, minister to every woman, no matter her age, no matter her status, no matter what she's called to do. And here's why. Because what the devil wants us to do and what culture is telling us is that we've got to walk in a certain process, mindset, bad attitude in order to get to be heard, right? And we don't understand until we truly uh lean in and realize wait a minute, God can use anybody regardless of color, background, gender, situation, status. He took David from the back side of the desert and and exalted him as king. He sees right where I am.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

So what you and I are trying to do, and I'm surrounded by a lot of young women, we have daughters, but we also uh influence a lot of young women in our church. If God is calling you to it, step out and say yes, and then walk through the doors of submission to what God has for you. And and here's what you we've had to work at avoiding and helping one another steer away from having a mindset that says the only way I'll attain it is if I fight for it. The only way I can get there is if, okay, my mom apologized for it. I'm not gonna apologize for anything, I'm just gonna take it. And what we don't realize is now we're we are stepping into a realm where we're not stepping on necessarily men's toes, we're stepping on God's toes. That's good. Because what we're saying is, I have to take it because God won't give it to me. Right. The culture's bigger than God. The the world is bigger than God. The situation is a roadblock that God cannot tear down. So I've got to walk in and take it. I've got to fight for it, and we just dismiss God altogether. And that is not, you will not end up where you want to end up. You'll you'll get to the end of something and go, how did I get it? Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

And and I I I don't care who you are. I I think that's what's gonna happen. I think that is so good. I think that is so good, and we'll end up having to go right back to the same starting point and start again, or we'll just be upset and hurt and quit and everybody's against me because I have this great gift and I want to utilize it, and no pastor sees my great gift. And right he it again, that's a whole other podcast, but at the end of the day, God gave me the gift. So there's nobody that if if I'm submitted to God and submitted to the purposes of God, it's God's responsibility. I'm I'm learning that now in pastoring, you know, because now we're facing the giant of we need to, we need a new building, we need a new location. Well, I've got to I gotta keep remembering that if it's God's will, it's his bill. You know, I can't make God do anything. I can't make people do anything. I have to trust God. That's right. And if God's given me a gift to sing, people say, you know, how do I someone came up to me this weekend at a church I was at and said, you know, I mean they were in their 20s, I have this gift and I'm gonna use it. What should it, what should I do? I said, Well, have you called anybody and said, hey, I'll come and sing for free? Have you are you singing in the choir? You know, are you are you are you on the praise team? Yeah, like where are you being used? You know, there's ministry all around you. There's a hospital right down the street. I'm sure on a Sunday they wouldn't mind you bringing a guitar and singing to some people sick. And, you know, there's a there's a juvenile detention center. There's all kinds of places you can go. There's nursing homes, there's all kinds of places. Now we say, oh, come on, that's not well, where do you think you you get your start? You know, where do you but all of that is part of this of this the being submitted and looking back and go, I am so grateful for those lean seasons because it taught me more than any season has. I'm so grateful that God kept me on the wheel of the that potter's wheel, but kept reminding me, go low, stay low, yeah, stay submitted, and watch what God will do. That's the only way. When people say, How did you get where you are? I not by anything that I could have done. And and even now, Sunday morning, I was at Bishop Bronner's church, and I walk in at, you know, have to be there at 7:15, and you I get there, they've got a choir, singers, band, and they've all been there already. I mean, there it is, it's a well old machine. And I was like, Whoa, okay, how do you get there? Okay, there's submission. There's some submission to authority that has to come into place to get to those levels of excellence.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, and I know we're talking a lot about in ministry places because we're talking about our own personal experiences. And I also want to just touch on that where this also fits every Christian woman, every married woman, uh, the woman who can't sing. Yeah, but she feels there's a calling on her life. So what does she do? She writes a book. Yeah. And so she writes the book and she gets it out there, and nothing happens. And so she's defeated and she's frustrated. Well, you know, that is a tough place to be, we understand it, but there's also a process that God wants to take us all through. And you and I, over the years, in um being twins and being in ministry together, we have had, we've lived such parallel lives, you know, in the ministry side of things. But also in parenting, in being wives, being with strong husbands. We we both married Italians. And the truth is that what we're talking about, that area of submission and trusting God and stepping up by faith, all of that applies, whatever age you are, whatever season you're in, whatever um the circumstance, whatever the stage of life you're in, it's the same thing, the same thing, the same thing. It's your attitude, it's your mindset about it. It's I'm called, okay, when God, where God. And if you put yourself in the in the middle of all that and you're frustrated because you think, well, God is not using me, and then you start looking at your lack rather than saying, I'm bringing the very best of who I am, and God's responsible to use me. I'm putting this back on God. If he called me, then he's responsible for where I'm called and when I'm called. And I'm just gonna listen and I'm gonna obey. That's right. But from our personal experience, you and me together, we've really had to um link arms over the years and encourage one another. And even in the season we're in now, you know, when we started off, um we always stayed in a place of if one was down, the other one was up.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

And we have fought to stay in a place of encouragement. Yes. And I say that because I think to all the women watching, if if you need encouragement, be an encourager to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

That is so true.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Because when we're walking through this place of who am I, where I'm, where am I, and I I hope somebody didn't turn this off when they heard the word call, because they don't think they're called. We're all called. Yes, to our families. We're all called to to the the quite frankly, to the season we've been born in, to the culture, to the place we are, where we work, we're we're all called. And God wants to use us right where we are, where we're not frustrated. Yeah, and we're not aggravated, and we're not stuck. Yes. And encouragement gets you unstuck. So women need one another. We do.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

And and I've needed you, you've needed in different seasons. We've needed different things. Thank God we've had each other. And I'm, you know, I I think about that all the time. You know, how how can we be in encouragement? But what you said a minute ago was so true that this is not just for people in ministry, these are principles for anybody. If you're at work, you're you are a minister at work, maybe for your family. Don't ever underestimate the season of the of the ages of your children or your marriage. Right. You know, that it could be that everything needs to stop, and the only thing you're focused on is this right here. You know, I I watched a documentary of um Ben Stiller and his mom and dad. We were watching it last night, and it's so funny how they were talking about how their parents really pursued, you know, their careers and how Ben Stiller and his sister felt like, man, we just got overlooked, got left out. And Ben said, I'm not gonna do that to my kids. And now he's having a inver conversation with his grown children. They're saying the same thing about him, you know, that he chose career. And it's so interesting. We can miss it. We think we won't be like our parents, or we think we won't be like somebody that's ahead of us, and we won't make those same mistakes. You will, if you're not really focused on the season, you're in an intentional, and understand that it's a calling. Your job is a calling. It really is. Oh no, I hate this job. Well, maybe you wouldn't hate it if you understood that you're called as a minister. Right. You know, there's Deborah's and then there's JL's. You know, we don't talk about JL. JL is the one who was so she was so slick. And she, you know, as Sisera is running after he was defeated, he's the captain of the alternate army that was coming against Israel. And she she lured him into the tent. He was hungry. She gave him some milk, laid him down, started, and then she drove a tent peg into his head and killed him. Who's the ultimate warrior in that story? Who's the hero, the champion of that story? We don't hear about JL. So we have to see ourselves. I might have a microphone, and that's how I speak. You know, you might uh have something else that you're doing. Your calling could be, you know, as a nurse, and you have an opportunity, the privilege of laying on people, laying hands on people right before they leave this earth. Like, like the it's just the perspective, how we look at our lives. But we're all called. We're all called.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah. And few have chosen. And few have chosen. To go into to go into the processes of the calling always requires equipping. Say that again. Calling always requires equipping. You don't get one without the other. You've got to be willing to go through the process of being equipped, whether you're a woman or a man, it does not matter. So if we go back to what does the Bible say about women in ministry, you just mentioned two women that God used. Yes. I think the Bible's very clear what it says about ministry. God will use a donkey. Why wouldn't He use a woman? So I don't think that we should be apologists, and I don't think we should have a chip on our shoulder. None of those attitudes are even necessary. We trust God to use us in the environment that we're in, but we also understand that the resistance, and you talked about tension and resistance when you first got into ministry, that's required. That's part of it. There's stuff on you that has to die that has to be squeezed out. Maybe you're talented, maybe you're gifted. And I would say you're talented, you're gifted, but you're at home with three little kids. And you can't go anywhere. Right. And you feel like you're walking away from the best part of your life. You're not. You're not. We can say from this vantage point, the most important part in your life is raising healthy kids, raising kids who know who they are. And you're not frustrated because you're stuck because you feel called, but you don't understand. Part of the process of that calling is going through the difficult seasons, getting in the trenches and waiting on God. And you know, this is what we tell our daughters all the time. You know, we're we are we're still parenting, we're still ministering to our daughters, helping them understand. And we want to be able to help, yeah, the women that that are listening to our podcast in every stage of life to understand that this too shall pass, but this too is expensive.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Yes, that's right. And and that's really all we can we can do. We can encourage, we can um build people up, we can just keep reminding them of what God said, of what their purpose is and stay submitted. I love this conversation. I think this is where so many people live, and we miss this. We get caught up in all the other voices and the problems and the chaos and the controversy, but it goes, it just comes right back to am I called? What am I called to do? Where am I called? Where do I start? And then I got to go through the process of equipping. And then God will do the rest. That's the good part. I just do the rest.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

I have to get good at obeying God.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Quicker. This is a great convert. Quicker and oh just obey the Lord. Well, we st we we could keep going on and on and on, but we do hope that you guys have enjoyed our podcast.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

I think I hope they did. Can we pray for some people before we go? I think it would be good to you go. I want to pray for men and women who are watching this. If you made it this far, I want to pray for you. And I want to just bring all the needs and the worries and the concerns that you have before the Lord. And let's do it. Father, I just thank you for everybody watching. Thank you, Jesus. God, those that are they know they're called, but they don't know where to start. I pray, God, that you would lead them and they would not despise the small thing. Your word says, don't despise small beginnings. So even if it looks small, God, it's the starting place of something significant you're building in them. I thank you for the anointing that's on their life. I thank you for the purpose that you've placed on the inside of them. And I ask, God, that every dream would be realized according to your timing in everything. I pray they'd get planted in a house, they'd get surrendered to your process, and God, they will begin to grow in the gift that you've given them. And Lord, you you're gonna use their gifts to do more exceedingly abundantly than they could ever ask or think. I thank you that we go in your power and your anointing, not our own strength. In Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Amen. That's a good prayer, sister.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

I know I need that prayer. I prayed that for myself.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Amen. I just I just received it from myself. Thank you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Take it all.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Thanks for listening, everybody.