Transcript
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Public markets taught me to develop conviction
quickly, act fast, and this is what we have
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here at Willdan.
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We're happy to commit into the first close.
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We're happy to speed up our process if needed.
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It's a great time to be investing.
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We see fundraising data.
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We see how many months it takes to close a
fund.
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So this gives us an emerging LP an opportunity
to start building relationships with the top
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managers around the world.
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And if we look at the statistics, the best
vintages have been post GFC 2011, 2012.
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This resembles to some extent these times and
we are actually actively investing.
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The family office is 3 and a half years old.
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You've invested into 60 managers.
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What are some of the biggest lessons that
you've had from investing in venture or private
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markets so far?
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Ticket sizing in the first few deals also is a
lesson for us.
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What do you wish you knew before investing into
emerging managers?
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So you're an investment manager for Willgro.
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What is Willgro?
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Willgro is a 1st generation single family
office, based in the Baltics, in Vilnius,
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Lithuania.
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It started, 8 years ago on the back of a
successful logistics business called Girteka.
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Girteka nowadays is the largest asset heavy
transport company in Europe.
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On top of that, we have another operating
company called Sirin, which is the largest real
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estate developer and asset manager in the
Baltics on the industrial side.
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Willgro itself is one of the most active
private markets investors in Europe.
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These days we have a 60 managers across asset
classes.
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You have an active logistics company and real
estate development company.
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Does that affect how you allocate the rest of
your funds within the family office?
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Having operating businesses, allows us to be
more aggressive on, illiquids.
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So we are heavily private markets, skewed in
our asset allocation, currently running, close
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to 70%.
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What else makes you unique from other single
family offices?
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We are emerging LP based outside of a typical
financial center.
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So I guess that makes us a little bit less
hyper cycle prone investor.
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Then on top of that, we are actively investing
in fund of funds next to our primary fund
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investment practice.
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Moreover, being 1st generation single family
office, we have, entrepreneurial DNA.
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When we last chatted, you used a football
analogy to describe the different assets that
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you invest in venture, buy a private credit.
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Tell me about that.
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Every asset class has a, has its, certain role
in, in our portfolio and probably one of the
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better analogies could be with, European
football.
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So venture, for example, has a role of
delivering the outsized returns, delivering
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alpha to the portfolio, comparable to striker,
what strikers do on the football team, take
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measure risks and score goals.
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Then the buyouts, I would say, sort of
represents a midfielder analogy in, in European
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football.
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So they have a great opportunity to be a strong
performance, but provide some stability, to the
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overall portfolio.
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Hence, we have, this represent the largest
allocation to our portfolio.
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And real assets, private credit, this, this
more like defender steady income generating
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type of investment approach.
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So tell me about how you went about building
your venture capital portfolio.
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We take a 3 year vintage based investment
cadence.
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So we just started the second cycle.
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In each cycle, which consists of 3 years, we've
tried to build a portfolio of 15 to 17
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managers, well diversified.
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When you were having this discussion about
venture capital, did you think about
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potentially doing all small funds or all seed
funds?
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Probably 80, 80% of our time we're spending on,
small pre seed seed managers in terms of
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sourcing and diligence because this is probably
the most fragmented part of venture ecosystem.
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Our ticket sizing is risk based.
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So for a highest risk, seed precede, we write a
bit smaller checks for a bit later stage and
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sort of less risky part.
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We write a bit bigger checks.
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So on a dollar basis, we are rather well
diversified.
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But in terms of line items, most of manager
relationships come from precede and seed space.
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We spoke last time that one of your constraints
is you are in Lithuania, and you're self aware
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to understand that you have to use a slightly
different strategy given you're outside of the
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financial hubs.
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Tell me about that.
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In order to think about one's strength, you
have to realize your weaknesses.
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So so this is, obviously, something that we've
been discussing a lot internally.
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We decided not to, build a team in London or or
or or the US.
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And, fund the funds, across, you know, both
venture buyouts and and and other asset classes
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help us a lot.
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We build our networks, with the help, of them.
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We collaborate on diligence and data and
systems.
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What percentage of your funds are sourced
through your fund to fund relationships versus
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directly or through other warm introductions?
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I would say half comes from fund of funds.
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Another half comes from other networks.
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But again, if you would look at, the managers
that would back outside of fund of funds
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sourcing channel, their cap tables look pretty
strong with, some other fund of funds or or
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flagship, institutional investors.
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So you're able to piggyback on other
institutional signals in the market?
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The strength of the cap table of a fund
manager, acts as a strong signal.
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It's not the only factor that goes into
underwriting equation, but this is a this is a
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strong signal for us indeed.
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There's some nuance for LPs when they look at
other signals from other institutional LPs.
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Where are cases where you would not follow a
signal from a top institutional LP?
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At the beginning of our venture investing, we
more emphasized the brand of the firm.
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With that, obviously you have underneath, some
strong institutional piece, but we paid less
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attention and, maybe the strength of the brand,
and the name of the firm was more important.
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Later, we've decided to focus much more on
emerging managers.
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So with that, you know, the brand is still a
little bit, unclear and then, you have to
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extract, the signal, elsewhere.
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And, strength of the cap table of the manager
acts as a strong signal for us, these days.
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Hey.
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Me and you both share an affinity for spinouts.
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Why do you like spinouts so much?
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The
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spinouts typically have learned the craft of
venture at a bigger firm.
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They made a good amount of investments
successfully and unsuccessfully.
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They learned on someone else's dollars and
probably there's a time when they feel they
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need to go solo.
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They're also essentially making a bet on
themselves.
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They're saying that they're gonna outperform
their previous manager and they have a lot of
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skin in the game.
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On the contrary, what are some of the risks
that come with investing in spinouts?
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Sure.
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There are few risks that we have to be mindful.
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1st is a GP market fit.
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The question is whether the manager has done,
you know, similar or the same strategy
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actually, at the previous firm.
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So that's important to validate the track
record.
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Also, there is a certain element of risk in, in
fundraising.
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Probably, you know, they had the investor
relation people arranging, talking to LPs.
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Now now they have to do that themselves, being
stretched in time and, make sure that
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fundraising does not drag out too far too long.
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The third one would be, yeah, I think, it's
ambition to scale AUM.
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That's one of the risks we want to discuss
practically and understand, how, you know, fund
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3, fund 4 would look like for for the emerging
manager.
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Just to play devil's advocate there, let's say
you had a top GP spinning out of one of these
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very large funds, and you assume that they're
gonna scale you on fund 2 and fund 3, but fund
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1 was right sized.
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Would you ever invest into a manager knowing
that you probably wouldn't invest in the next
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vintage?
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We haven't done that yet.
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Just recently had a case where, we clearly
understood that it's a one, vintage play for
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us, and we passed.
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And I think overall, it would be highly
unlikely given that our approach, is to
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underwrite typically 2 vintages.
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Yeah.
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I think there's essentially, it's like option
value.
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If you hit the next Sequoia or the next
benchmark, you have you could have that
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allocation for 10, 20, 30 years, which is
incredibly valuable, especially from a
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compounding aspect.
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The other one is relationships.
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You get into those top brands, and now you're
able to use that both as a track record.
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And oftentimes, the the most kind of LP
friendly GPs will also introduce you to other
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GPs whether they invest before them or even
sometimes competitors in extreme cases.
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The question is, do you want all of your
emerging managers to to become, these large
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platforms?
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That's that's, I guess, the question.
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If, if the strategy, remains to be seen.
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But if the strategy is to focus on precedency,
the 80% of the time, this might also provide
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some some proper churn in the portfolio.
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Yeah.
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I think there's probably a nuance there.
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You want some of them to graduate, so you could
say I was in fund 1 of benchmark or fund 1 of
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of Lightspeed.
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And I think you also want some of them to stay
the same size for kind of returns and
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everything.
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So I think they all have value in the
marketplace.
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The family office is 3 and a half years old.
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You've invested into 60 managers.
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What are some of the biggest lessons that
you've had from investing venture or private
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markets so far?
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Ticket sizing in the first few deals also is a
lesson for us.
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So I guess this combination to work on sourcing
just wait for the best opportunities.
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And again, as a family office, we don't have
this pressure to put dollars to work.
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So this is a good place to take these learnings
and, move forward.
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What are you guys modeling in terms of DPI, in
terms of getting your capital back to continue
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your venture program?
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How many years out do you think that you're
gonna have a perpetuating program that doesn't
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require external funding?
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On venture side, the DPI, should, be 1 x, 7, 8
years out.
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We believe maybe even longer, but, one and a
half year ago, we actually set up our all,
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investment activities, in order not to depend
on operating businesses, even though venture is
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the longest, longest one and it will require
funding from other asset classes on a firm
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level.
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We are running independently.
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What other do you implement in a bear market as
of today versus a bull market?
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It's it's, just a great time to be investing.
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We see fundraising, data.
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We see how many months it takes to to close a
fund.
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So this gives us, an emerging LP and
opportunity to, start building relationships
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with the top managers around the world.
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And if we look at, statistics, best vintages,
have been, post GFC 2011, 2012, 209 vintage is
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also pretty decent.
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So this, resembles to some extent these, these
times, and, we are actually on the reactively
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investing.
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Congratulations, 10X Capital podcast listeners.
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Thank you for your support.
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You had a long career in the public markets
before you came over to Will Gro.
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What lessons do you take from your public
markets investing?
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Investing is very similar across asset classes.
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So you just have to make sure that every deal,
that you do is a great deal.
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You don't need to chase every, every
opportunity.
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So that's what we try to focus, be very
selective and, build conviction, quickly.
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So public markets taught me to develop
conviction quickly, act fast, and, this is what
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we have, here at Will Grow.
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We we're happy to commit into the first close.
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We're happy to to speed up our process if if
needed.
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A venture capital is known as an access class
where it's very difficult to get in the very
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tough funds.
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How do you differentiate yourself against other
top LPs?
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We typically commit for 2 vintages.
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Of course, things things might change,
strategies might change, teams might change,
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the the the manager.
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Again, our budgets can fluctuate, but this is
the, the model's operandi.
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So we were there for 2 vintages as we are
active, you know, 3 quarters in the US.
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This gives a great opportunity for US managers
to diversify their LP base.
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Also we're happy to be decisive, quick, and
commit to the first closing, as I mentioned,
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And maybe finally, so we are pretty well
connected, with another family office and LPs
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in Europe.
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So we made a bunch of intros to our managers
and, actually, in some cases, brought other LPs
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alongside.
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Should GPs in the United States look at Europe
as essentially one geography or one country
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when it comes to connectivity and strategies?
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Yeah, it's hard.
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I think no.
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So, it's very fragmented market for sure.
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Different languages, different regulations.
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I think, first step for us is naturally London.
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So it's, closer culturally and language wise,
and it's the most established financial center
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in Europe.
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So, this is a natural bridge, but then if you
look at the continent, it's very fragmented.
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And for us, this fragmentation, I guess, played
to it to some disadvantage in in the sense that
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we we committed less to European, managers and
more to the US because, in many cases, European
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managers, they run localized strategies,
bounded by geographies, which we think is not,
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is not ideal.
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What do you wish you knew before investing into
emerging managers?
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When we started, emerging managers were a
category with a dedicated targets, of
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allocation in our portfolio.
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And, at the moment it evolved in our strategy
that, being emerged managers, just, one of the
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features that we like about the managers, but
without any dedicated bucket, And we benchmark
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merge managers to establish managers in the
same domain.
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So, that would be, I guess, the key learning
and adjustment on our side.
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What would you like our audience to know about
you, about Willgro, about anything else you'd
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like to shine a light on?
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Willgro is is a small professionally run family
office who does not have a pressure to put
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dollars to work.
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So we are very much focused on top quality GPs
and patiently investing in venture, lower bid
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market, buyouts, and other strategies.
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And again, so we, although we're on generalist
approach, we spend a lot of time on cyber, deep
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tech, life sciences, tech bio.
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So happy to meet, folks from from these areas.
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What is the main advantage of taking money from
a large single family office versus an
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00:15:25,259 --> 00:15:26,115
institutional investor?
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What are the pros and cons?
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You're in Lithuania.
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How often do you go to New York or San
Francisco in the US?
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And tell me about your strategy in terms of
FaceTime.
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Given our base far away from, the financial
centers, we have to travel a lot.
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So spending, give or take 6 weeks, per year in
the US, roughly equally split between East
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Coast and West Coast, where we meet our
existing relationships and, new relationships.
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Building new relationships is very important
for our future pipeline.
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Well, Well, thank you for sharing this
masterclass on single family office.
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Thanks, David.
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Thanks for listening to the audio version of
this podcast.
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00:16:01,554 --> 00:16:07,154
Come on over to 10x cabo podcast on YouTube by
typing in 10x cabo podcast into youtube.com and
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00:16:07,154 --> 00:16:08,535
clicking the subscribe button.
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00:16:08,673 --> 00:16:12,272
On the YouTube version of this podcast, you
could see the graphs, visuals, and key
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00:16:12,272 --> 00:16:14,292
takeaways that accompany every episode.
