Transformed in 12 Hours: Fletch Wiley's Journey from Addiction to Working with Andrae Crouch

Fletch Wiley (00:00)
I was at the point where I I hated playing clubs, I hated what I'd become, I don't want to play Proud Mary three times a night, you know. And so I felt there's something gotta be something better than this, you know.

But I didn't know Jesus. And so when I got saved, I I remembered as a ten-year-old boy going into that room full of instruments and getting that trumpet. And I think, Lord, is this is this why I've been saved? You know, I'm hearkening back to that.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (00:34)
Ladies and gentlemen, a legend in the music industry is with us today. So Fletch Wiley, welcome to the God and Gig Show. How are you?

Fletch Wiley (00:43)
I'm great, Alan. we're just doing great. We got back spent the month of April in England, so we'll maybe reference that a little bit about the some of the unique opportunities. You know, God he always

blows our minds. My wife and I are traveling together now after years where she was either being a mom or working, you know, so we didn't get to do that. But now we're she's retired. I am I'll never retire, you know, they say musicians just go from bar to bar, man.

No,

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (01:16)
Yeah.

Fletch Wiley (01:16)
not not Christians, but but anyway we can talk about that a little later. But great being with you, yes.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (01:22)
I love this. I love

how you've already equated so much of your life in just a couple of sentences, your family, your wife, traveling,

So we're gonna dig into all of that. But some people are meeting you for the first time. They might probably have heard you, but

have not seen or heard you speak about some of the things that you do. So when people meet you for the first time, maybe they don't get a chance to read the bio, right? You get to meet them in a coffee shop or airport or whatever. What are those first couple of things you like people to know about you when they first meet you?

Fletch Wiley (01:52)
well, I I'm a Christian who loves the Lord and wants to I'm a musician, full time musician, always have been. People say, Are you full time? Well, is there any any other way to be, you know?

I don't have another job, another vocation outside of music. I've from the time I was ten years old when I first got my trumpet, I'm a trumpet player and I just knew I was gonna be a musician and always loved music and there was something about it. Even though I I did not grow up as a believer in Jesus, I I knew that

the music was was my life. I I had to do that and so I went through university, got a degree and that and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee. But then, you know, started playing with different bands and I was a jazz guy. I just always knew I wanted to be a jazz guy and I met Jesus. Wow, when I was twenty four. A very traumatic conversion. I was

You know, I through the sixties I was I got involved in drugs and I I became a drug addict who played a little music, you know. It was that kind of a deal. And the Lord and his sovereignty and his love, you know, while I was yet a sinner

Christ still died for me. I love that scripture. And he reached out for me and he would not let a h let hold of me, honestly. so I got saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, healed, and delivered from drugs all in about twelve hours. So the Lord knew what I needed, a very dramatic conversion, so that I wouldn't, you know, go back into my old ways. And so that happened in in October of nineteen seventy one.

And so

but yeah, that's that's kind of in a nutshell.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (03:51)
I love this so much because first starting with your salvation experience and we are speaking not just to musicians but the creators of all kind, but we all know the

industry,

Fletch Wiley (03:59)
Right.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (04:00)
the world, whatever you want to call it, has this call to the darker sides of our nature. While you're in a creative space, while you're doing amazing things, there's always this call. So clearly that kind of got the best of you at one point, but then God called you out of it. I would love to know about this tension.

Of once you are saved, once you have this musical gift, you're using it. I'm not sure what you were doing musically when you got saved, but was there a shift in terms of your creative expression when God got a hold of you? Because some people say, I gotta leave everything that's not Christian behind. Some people say, well, God saved me, so I can now be a light in these areas. So, what was that experience for you?

Fletch Wiley (04:47)
that was a good question.

question.

When I was at the point where I I hated playing clubs, I hated what I'd become, you know, and I think that happens to us when the Holy Spirit says, you know, you you don't really want to do this. No, I don't. I don't want to play Proud Mary three times a night, you know. I have a degree in trumpet I and then a postgraduate work at Yale and Aspen Music Festival. And so I felt there's something gotta be something better than this, you know.

But I didn't know Jesus. And so when I got saved, I I remembered as a ten-year-old boy going into that room full of instruments and getting that trumpet. And I think, Lord, is this is this why I've been saved? You know, is this is this I'm hearkening back to that. And it's like it's really was getting to my heart. So

What we did and I I encourage people to jump into a church right away 'cause 'cause you know, something happened to me,

We moved to Oklahoma City where these other three incredible musicians were and started playing in this church and hearing the Word of God. And you know, I the Word of God just came alive to me. That was the thing that blew my mind, most of all. I love the Word of God. I didn't really like worship or anything like that. I because I could understand the Word. The Word

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (06:08)
Mm.

Fletch Wiley (06:09)
made sense by the Holy Spirit. So we were there six nights a week for about eight weeks, hearing all this and it started started to seep in.

What God did when when I got on my knees and and accepted. And let me say this other thing. when I was doing that, there was a tremendous battle going on. You know, it's almost like Satan was here and God was here, and God's saying, You know this is right, and I'm saying, I know what is right. I don't know what I'm doing.

And Satan said, Man, you don't want to do this. You'll lose all your friends. Well, I didn't need those friends anyway. But you know, you and you'll never be able to play jazz again, you know, so whatever. So God won. I got on my knees and I I tell people I said kind of a feeble prayer, but then someone said, Well, it worked. Yeah, it really did work. It really did work. Not that feeble. But he heard me. That's the thing. He heard me.

And we had a little six weeks old boy and I l I liter I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew it was right. There was something

springing up in my heart that was like I I need to do this and and anyway, so that that's a really good question. What at that point as musicians, as artists, as dancers, as filmmakers, whatever you do, you need to learn the the only thing really is no, God's gonna use you in your gifting. He

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (07:41)
Yeah.

Fletch Wiley (07:41)
gave that gift to you is very unique just to you. And he's created you as a unique individual and he

wants to show you how to use it, but it's gonna take some time and kind of a transition into the kingdom of God is different from the kingdom of the world where you've been and whatever you've been doing. So learn about and it's you know it's a lifelong learning expedition that we go on to to know the Lord and his goodness. And my wife and I, you know, read through the Bible every year together.

We love the word. So yeah. So I'd I'd say jump in and and get into fellowship and kind of discover who you are in Christ now.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (08:23)
You know, we're talking to musicians and artists and creators who oftentimes feel isolated. So I love the fact that you focused on community, the church community, and then

Fletch Wiley (08:31)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (08:32)
having people around you who

you know, could deal with those voices because you were hearing both voices at the time, but the

Fletch Wiley (08:39)
Right.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (08:39)
voice of God is always going to be, you know, two or three witnesses, right? They're gonna be, and that's where the church can help us to avoid being swayed by those other voices in our lives. And so I also wanted to make sure that, you know, we touched on the influences and the connections that were made with other musicians in the gospel world where you

that you helped arrange and worked with one of the greatest gospel songwriters of any generation, and Andre Crouch. So I am super curious and just where did the development of those relationships and doors open where

Fletch Wiley (09:14)
Mm.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (09:15)
now your talent and your trumpet playing and even as you mentioned jazz and all these other things, God used the path to get to these people who also were creating and a unique space and unique

message for the kingdom.

Fletch Wiley (09:30)
Well, you know, God is amazing at opening doors for us. And you know, we were we had this little band, a quartet, great musicians, you know. Hadley played with Neil Diamond for thirty five years, the guitar player.

Bill Maxwell was Andre's producer, Keith Green, the Winins, Helen Baylor. the list goes on and on and on. Worked on T V shows. Harlan was an incredible B three player and played on with Andre.

Right after we got saved in October of seventy one, Andre Crouch and the disciples came to town. We we of course went to hear him because the first you know, the first back then there were choruses in the church, which is fine, and hymns. And I was thinking, What what's the music? Mostly all I heard at first was Southern gospel. It was like, well, Lord Jesus.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (10:30)
Not

Fletch Wiley (10:33)
And then I heard Andre and I thought, Wow, this is great. So we got to meet him and play for him that night at our little storefront church. And you know, we could play. We were we were really good musicians and had spent years studying that and we were now discovering who we are in Christ. So Andre said, Well let's keep in touch. And the next March we went out and

I don't know if you've ever known the name R. W. Shambok, but it's a big it's from the A.A. Allen thing, and a guy in in Oklahoma City said, hey boys, I want you to go out and, you know, play a tent revival with R. W. Shandbach. Okay. So here's four hippies going out to to playing with this guy who was great. He was a lovely man. He he had a big one of those voice of the theater all tech speakers, one, you know, right by he which he didn't need.

in a tent that hold five thousand people. But and I was always funny 'cause he'd he'd have to tell the crowd, Now these boys are gonna they're gonna close their eyes when they play, and that's okay. That's just how they worship, you know. So he wanted to let the people know they're okay, they're saved, filled with the Holy Ghost. So then we we met Andre again, and that was in March. And right after that we went

And we we heard about fasting. So, you know, everything is new. So we're like, okay,

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (11:58)
Mm yeah.

Fletch Wiley (11:58)
we're gonna go out to this lake, and then Bill Maxwell baptized me and he led me to the Lord. And when we came back from that three days of fasting, you know, we did some other thing, some deliverance, some stuff happened. It was just you know, miraculous stuff with the Holy Spirit. It was an amazing time, the early Jesus music days. And when we came back, Bill had a call from a guy named Rick Powell who was looking for

for a band to be the backup band at Explo seventy two. That was a big music event that happened in Dallas in July of nineteen seventy two.

we joined An Andre about a month later, in California, and we became his backup band for about f four years. And in the midst of that

We did a record called Take Me Back and he was impressed that I had a degree in music, so he said, Well Fletch, you probably arrange music, don't you? And I said, Yes I do. Well, not to that degree, shall we say. So he let me arrange half of Take Me Back and I mean it was

You know, it was a leap of faith for him and me, but it was a bless but when you have players like that, you know, Larry Carlton, Joe Sample, Wilson Felder, Dean Parks, just I could go on and on and on. The players just were incredible. so it makes it easier, you know, when you're doing that. So,

And that was my first foray into really arranging music for recording session. And the record of course went on to what a Grammy. And it it Andre had done a bunch of records before then, and but that kinda launched him out in the deep 'cause that won a Grammy and it had so many great songs and he was such a great guy and a great songwriter and

he started the whole C C thing,

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (13:51)
I am wondering,

Fletch Wiley (13:51)
Right.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (13:52)
working with someone like Andre,

what were the things that you noticed about him and it necessarily, I guess, his work ethic or his work process

Fletch Wiley (13:59)
Sure.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (13:59)
that that made what God put him come to life?

Fletch Wiley (14:02)
course. Well I love talking about Andre. He was extremely generous. You know, we met him again at Explode 'cause we were, like I say, the sort of the backup band to anybody who needed a band and so we'd we'd be in the locker room of the cotton bowl.

r rehearsing with Rick Powell and these other musicians while things were going on upstairs. And then we saw Andre and he you know he was lauding us and telling people how great we were. And everybody man, you need to hear this band, they're incredible musicians, blah blah blah. So we're like, really? Well okay. And and so g you know he w he was a generous guy. You know, he he had unique qualities.

He was not r a racist at all, shall we say. He there was no motivation that at all 'cause he had, you know, four white guys in the band, so

And and he loved us, we loved him, we loved Sandra and Billy Thetford and Danny Bell and all the Jimmy Davis and all the play you know, just wonderful people, great great players, but also very humble servants of the Lord.

like we the first time I went to the Quartet convention

which is basically in Nashville all white Southern gospel quartets, not black

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (15:27)
Okay.

Fletch Wiley (15:28)
gospel. So people knew about Andre, and this was like 1972 or 73, very early on, but they thought he was French. Andre. Andre Corte. So

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (15:39)
Wow.

Fletch Wiley (15:41)
we and they backstage they were arguing, well who's gonna go on first and nobody wanted to go on first. And Andre says, I'll go on first.

And then after he played, I'm not following that guy. Well the pe there's ten thousand people there and he wal walked out. He's a black guy. But then he started playing all these songs that they knew.

And they'd worship too, you know. So they freaked out. So Andre had a way of disarming the crowd, making them feel very comfortable, laughing about racial issues, you know, and and having a great time. And so he made people feel at home. And in two and a half hours of a concert, you heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. So

It was it was marvelous, you know. And I think being in the South was probably our greatest place to play, honestly. You know. people just loved Andre. They couldn't wait to get in there. I'm

his music abilities were you know, self-learned, self-taught, you know, we like to talk about people with big ears, meaning they can hear something and immediately they know how to play it.

And so you you had to have that kind of quality to be in the band because we never really rehearsed, okay. We kind of rehearsed on the bandstand. Andre had lots of new tunes, you know, and but you had to pick up one time through and now here we go. We're all playing, you know. So

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (17:11)
Wow, that's insane to me again, just thinking about the quality of music

that you guys were playing. And this is not hard, this is not Merryhead of Little Lamb stuff. I am sure

Fletch Wiley (17:20)
No no.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (17:21)
of that.

Fletch Wiley (17:21)
Well, let me give you an example of Andre the complexity of Andre. 'Cause he really I mean, you could say, Well when you hear his music you say, Well, I've heard that before. Well, you might have. I was at his house, we were I had my tape recorder and I'm legal pad and I'm making notes and so he's playing songs for me to sort of listen to and record and

take back home. We had we had actually moved back to Dallas because we didn't like living in LA with you know we were gone so much I wanted my wife to be around her mom and relatives. So so I'd fly out, meet the band and and fly home. And so I was in LA with them and so he's going through the song and I say play it again. And I'm like, well play it again. And I said, I don't know which one of those do you want man? What do you mean?

'Cause they're all just a little bit different. really? He didn't know the kind of gift he had, okay. The nuance

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (18:23)
Mm.

Fletch Wiley (18:24)
in his playing was amazing, okay. And he listened to everybody. Not just, you know, Motown. Stevie was a big influence. Stevie Wonder, the Beatles were a big influence. But pop bands, classical music,

You

know, I mean he literally listened to everybody and took from them something that said, I I like that. I wanna I wanna incorporate that, you know. yeah, we did a record called Just Andre, which was kind of eclectic 'cause it had a worship song called Bless the Lord, that I play an obligato trumpet thing way up high. I had a country song

it it just had all kinds of stuff on it. It's a it's a great record to listen to. I I don't know if you can if you can delineate on these records anymore or they just have compilations of all the songs or anything. But that was a great record, and of course, live in London, right after I left the band, then they went to London.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (19:27)
So as you mentioned right after or right before the band went to London that you went ahead to other pursuits, I am curious in terms of how God developed your own creative spirit, your own like what are the projects

Did he lead you to? Did you feel that you wanted to kind of work on your own solo career? Were you looking for other opportunities? I just wonder like how did God evolve your career after having such amazing moments with Andre? You know, you had an another thirty, forty years of just incredible experiences that maybe you didn't know you were going to have. So I'm just curious, like what was that evolution

Fletch Wiley (20:00)
Exactly.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (20:02)
like after, you know, you stepped away from that band and started developing other relationships and other career paths?

Fletch Wiley (20:06)
Good good question.

Well, yeah. I left Andre literally fifty years ago. So and

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (20:11)
Hmm.

Fletch Wiley (20:12)
my parents were like, What are you doing, boy? Don't leave Andre. He was just ascending in nineteen seventy-six. He w he had certainly been popular, but he was reaching enormous fame. Well, it's one of those things when the the Lord you know, first of all, we had two kids. My wife's back in the Dallas area.

And

I'm traveling w one tour was five weeks. That was just too much. And even

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (20:39)
Mm.

Fletch Wiley (20:40)
when they were home, sometimes I had to go out and do records or TV with them. So I wasn't home. So it it finally reached a point where I'm like, I just I hate to leave, but I just have to. I you know, I tried to leave one time and I was gone for about a month and Andre was like, What are you doing? Nothing.

We'll

come back. But this time I knew I it was it was time. And what are we gonna do? I have no idea. But the Lord takes care of you. and I and I did start a solo career at that point. And my grandfather gave me some money to put an addition onto our house. And I said, Grandpa, I think I need to use this to do a record. Is that okay? whatever you think, you know. He was fine.

But so I d cut some demos with these guys in Oklahoma City, Harlan and Hadley, and brought another drummer down. And

That was the basis for my first record called Ballad and that I released in nineteen seventy either seven late seventy-six or early seventy seven. I think it was seventy-six. And finished it in LA at the studio Mama Joe's where we recorded Take Me Back with some great players.

So that was the first record I I did five records for them. The first three were jazz records. And

Yeah,

I had fun doing that with them and then I started producing and arranging records and a fellow called from Oklahoma City and said there's a group out in East Texas that called the Agape Force and they're ministry that has ministry to kids and discipleship and they're starting to do children's records. They needed an arranger arranger and a producer. So I became that for them and the first record we did was I think called Music.

music machine that ended up selling a million and a half copies. And the next one, Bullfrogs and Butterflies. So I did about 12 records with them. Billy Ray Hearn, who was with Sparrow Records, always had a way of placing children's records on the Grammy ballot. I don't know how he did that.

These were good records, but you know, Christian records weren't high on the list back then. And in nineteen eighty four we got to go to the Grammys because the music machine two, I think it was. It's up there. Is it two

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (23:12)
Wow.

Fletch Wiley (23:12)
or three? three. was on the ballot f in nineteen eighty four when

Michael Jackson did thriller and he also did E. T. So everything he did got a Grammy. So the children's category was elevated to a prime time T V thing. So we got to sit on the seventh row behind Cindy Lauper and the Jackson family and everything and got a we got a VIP parking pass and everybody's like, Who's that? It's nobody.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (23:41)
You I love it. You're

walking the red carpet with all these guys and you got it and so God opened that door. What incredible s what an incredible story.

Fletch Wiley (23:45)
Yeah. My wife and I and and my arm was my

arm was in a sling because I we went to a a rotor skating party for the kids. Some kid knocked me down and broke my elbow. So that was humbling, shall we say. The Lord has knows how to keep you humble, you know. It's fun.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (24:02)
Yes, he does.

Such a beautiful story in terms of your family. I want to go back to why you left in the

Fletch Wiley (24:08)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (24:08)
first place because you decided this priority must be the priority.

So

talk a little bit about that priority of family and how your ministry clearly was your family first, and then how did that how did you balance that throughout the years again? 'Cause your career started to change and your life started to change with the ministry with your family as well. So how did you

Yeah.

Fletch Wiley (24:33)
Yeah.

Well i it is it's a balancing act, but you always put God first, okay? And putting God first puts your family first. Now there are times when I missed birthdays and anniversaries 'cause I you know, for a musician, there's a part of it is is Jubile was the first musician and one of the meanings of his name is Wanderer. So that's not good. But sometimes

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (24:57)
Interesting. I nev yeah, no, I I have not

caught that before.

Fletch Wiley (25:01)
Yeah, well it's it's it's part of the job of traveling. If you're traveling you're making money. If you're not, you might not be. Now as a blessing producing records help you to stay at home sometimes.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (25:15)
Okay.

Fletch Wiley (25:16)
Sometimes you have to travel for that. But yeah, I've got a wonderful wife, you know, we

met in college and got married in nineteen seventy and w this we've been married fifty six years and so we have three kids. Gabriel who's a drummer, now he's a nurse, but he just played a gig with his old band Mineral, an emo band in Vegas and made

almost six figures. So, you know, life is funny, although he's glad to be a nurse. our daughter Tess Wiley is a recording artist in Germany, does her own records, an incredible singer songwriter. She was with sixpence none the richer in the late eight nineties.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (26:00)
No.

Fletch Wiley (26:01)
And she's an amazing singer songwriter. And our youngest son Peter runs a record label named Fat Possum Records that you guys should check out. And I kept telling him get out of the music business.

man it's not good but he's he's making six figures so he's doing okay so all our kids they didn't they didn't get they didn't get the memo you know don't go into the music you know they've all become music musicians and extremely successful in their own right and seven grandkids and you know my wife and I are more in love than ever it's just kind of weird you know Alan just how the Lord works but it is a balancing act so let me answer your question just to say you know pray about

everything before you do it. You know, just pray. Make prayer really the the first thing you do. Prayer prayer and reading the word and fellowshipping with other believers and kind of submitting questions to folks that might have more sense and brains than you do. But

God every step along the way, like right after leaving Andre, I got introduced to this children's music production company. And at the time there were just s you know, maybe f 30 or 40 kids who loved Jesus, but they were really they became great songwriters, really good songwriters. Music Machine is still a fun record to listen to after all these years, you know, decades.

in fact a friend of mine I saw him the other day and he had wrote a s from Bulgaria. He was there in the ministry. He wrote a song or two on it and he said, You know, I was just at Apple Computer the other day and they they have a Christian group and the woman there is high up in Apple and she said, I got saved as a kid listening to that record, you know. Now

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (27:50)
Wow.

Fletch Wiley (27:51)
I have kids that I play it for. So and same with Google. He went to Google and did the found the same thing. So it's a curious thing, you know, the Lord he used

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (28:09)
Amen. And this is such a great picture of making sure that even as your career changes and as God leads you in different directions, that the seeds are planted and they harvest there's a harvest on them even when you're not aware of them. And I love the picture of your kids

Fletch Wiley (28:26)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (28:27)
not taking your advice and going into music mini music is such a powerful thing.

Fletch Wiley (28:30)
Yeah. By the way, we we

have a book now, you can read all about it, okay, that my wife and I wrote. and it has a curious title, God Doesn't Play Fair and That's a Good Thing. And and I say that because

God pursued me when I didn't want to have anything to do with him, okay? So he wasn't playing fair. He he was laughing at me. He was coming after me. He would not let me go. Okay. And that's that's why I'm a believer today.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (29:01)
one of the things I wanted to get to right, is

the situation that a lot of musicians and creators are facing now, cause you have seen the industry and life change from when it was you needed a record deal and you needed a gatekeeper and somebody to now where it seems like every single person has a platform and an Instagram following and TikTok.

So I'm curious, what has been the biggest change that you've seen over the course of being a creator?

Fletch Wiley (29:29)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (29:30)
and what would you advise someone that's starting now?

Fletch Wiley (29:33)
Yeah, well I'd say I wanna s take it on two different tracks.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (29:37)
Sure.

Fletch Wiley (29:39)
from the from the music business part of it, it is a do-it yourself world now, DIY. And I'm not sure I like that. I I there was value in having a record label behind you

promoting your your records. You made a lot less money, but you had the potential of selling a lot more records. And as you say, you have people who have gifts of marketing, promotion, radio and and what do they call it? Radio and something else. I don't know. But

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (30:14)
A A and

R, that type of thing.

Fletch Wiley (30:15)
A and R

yeah, I mean the the aspect of you don't you shouldn't you shouldn't really do things all by yourself. You should have people that help you go through stuff, listen to your songs, and help you, people who love you, care for you and are honest with you. That's the one of the main problems we have today is everybody loves you and everybody loves everything you do. Well everything you do is not all that great, okay. I'm I've got

news for everybody. And it's that's not bad because we write a hundred songs and one of them might be worthy, you know, of of finishing and putting on a record. And that's that's the that's life, okay? I mean we that's that's how to follow our art into the dark spaces and light spaces and

and continue to work on it and one of the things they say a a great song is not written, it's rewritten and rewritten and rewritten, you know.

but the aspect remains, what do we do now? Well we have social media, which is the biggest tool.

to allow us to get the word out, you know, on a l still kind of a localized basis. And then as much as I dislike Spotify and the others, they do provide a way to get our music out and then help you with gigging and make a little bit of money, not much. But and live live playing is still the best way to get your music out.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (31:41)
Hm, very great advice. I'm trying not to ask this question, but it's on every single musician's mind and artist mind and creators mind. So I am gonna ask it, have you at any point as technology has changed been either concerned

or not concerned about this rise of AI in terms of what the effect is on creators and music. Since you mentioned the business, hate to ask it, but I think it's on everybody's mind.

Fletch Wiley (32:08)
Yeah. No no, it's

it's a it's a big question. What's the what's the one people use? Sonar? No sonar? For for Sono or something? Yeah, Sono.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (32:17)
chat G B T. for s Suno I think. Suno, yeah, I think is the name of it.

Fletch Wiley (32:25)
Yeah, I've heard songs from that and boy, they sound perfect. They're not very good, but they sound perfect.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (32:32)
I love

that okay. I'm gonna clip that. Make sure everyone heard that this that is the best analysis I've ever heard. Sound perfect

Fletch Wiley (32:36)
Remember Fletch Okay. Remember

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (32:41)
doesn't mean they're good.

Fletch Wiley (32:42)
that's that's my thing against AI is

It could it could maybe enhance your music and and things you can't do and it makes you sound too good. when you haven't done anything. May maybe you didn't even write the lyrics and that they actually provide you with a singer, which is kind of amazing, you know. so I still believe in the process of of writing things out, either doing a demo

And having a singer sing over that demo so you at least have a great demo product. Or you know, the last several records that I've done for other people, I go to Nashville and cut with real players there. Always real players. And I hope to continue to do that. I mean I even when we if I do a

Everybody has a s home studio now, so when I write a horn arrangement for someone I'll write the arrangement, then I'll play my trumpet part into the track and send it to the sax player and the bone player, you know, and they'll do it. Or I s my daughter just did a record and I wrote her two string arrangements and they sent it to the lady and she played all the string parts then. So that kind of thing, you know.

That's great. That's still real players. So I still believe in real players with mistakes and auto tune and and there's there's a vibrancy there and something that is full of that has life. That AI does not have life. It's just it can't. You know, it's it it mimics things that are it'll mimic a hit, which of course that's

That can be good, you know. We try to reference songs that are great and write something maybe like it, but tr try to make it ours, our own song and not somebody else's. So yeah, I'm I'm not a fan of AI.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (34:37)
I appreciate the thoughtfulness of that answer because as you

Fletch Wiley (34:41)
Right.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (34:41)
just mentioned, having life and life more abundantly, as the Bible says, all starts

Fletch Wiley (34:46)
Yes.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (34:47)
from our spirit. And one thing I've said in the previous podcast is that AI can be a tool. God can use it. True. But did he

Fletch Wiley (34:55)
Right.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (34:55)
ask you to use it? Did he tell you this is the best route? Or is it better to wait on the manna, to wait on wait on God for an idea instead of going into, hey, give me five

hooks that might work. And you

Fletch Wiley (35:09)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (35:09)
know, the sixth one that God gives you might be the one you don't go with because you went and got the easy five answers. So I just think it's interesting that you said that that live you still go to that, even

Fletch Wiley (35:19)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (35:20)
in the terms of not just going for the productivity. I want to make

Fletch Wiley (35:23)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (35:24)
sure we talk about the ministry heart you have because with all of your gifting and all of your music

experience, I believe that the heart of a minister when God saved you all those years was planted and clearly never left. And so just talk about how you develop, even in terms of writing your book and writing your memoir and sharing what your wife is doing with ministry. Like where does that fit in all of the stuff you're doing with music? How do you fit ministry

Fletch Wiley (35:45)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (35:47)
into, you know, what God is doing in your life right now.

Fletch Wiley (35:50)
Right. Well, people love music, you know, and that will never change. It's a great vehicle.

To present the gospel in in music. It always has been. Of course, we we use music for worship too. And it's a wonderful tool and part of part of the worship experience on a Sunday morning or whenever that bring you know really can allow us to enter into the presence of God. It's amazing. And I like I said, I don't know that I get it, but I I love it. and for the last seven years we've been traveling and doing, you know, the first tour we took was a nine

Week tour, six weeks, two weeks each in Turkey, Egypt, and Albania on the street ministering with music and other areas. And then we went to Lagos, Nigeria, and I did a week and played a concert and a church service, had two different bands, and they memorized my music, which my music is not all that easy, it's jazz, you know. So

spoke at the London School of Theology. Spoke and played there. so the Lord opens doors. You know, he opens kind of crazy doors sometimes. So we just we just want to be faithful and continue to walk walk through those doors and until he calls us home.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (37:09)
Beautiful. Well, I can again tell you that I am in s so inspired. I feel that the people

Fletch Wiley (37:15)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (37:16)
who are listening now have heard that God is walking through all their paths, whether they be their ministry path, their music path, their creative path, their family path. God clearly had his hand on all of that. And as you mentioned in your book, he didn't play fair in a good way.

Fletch Wiley (37:30)
Ha

ha ha.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (37:31)
that

you know the bible talks about like you know he he's he's he's not a man that you know shows he's fa he shows favor but he he's not trying to I've can't I can't even get the qu the the quote right of the verse but he absolutely honors principles you know and so the principles

Fletch Wiley (37:48)
Abs absolutely, yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (37:49)
that you have followed have brought you this harvest. So I am curious and I usually ask a question like this at the end, but for you I want to change it up a little bit because I feel like

A lot of people would say, Well, of course you know the answer to this. When I ask you what would you tell that 10 year old that just got the trumpet, that man, the young man that just got saved, what would you tell him now that you know what you know? I feel

Fletch Wiley (38:12)
Mm.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (38:13)
a lot of people would say, Well, he just said it, but I would say it like this. What would you say to the person who is right now where you were?

So to the to the young man who is like right on the edge of choosing whether or not he's going to stay in this lifestyle struggling, so

Fletch Wiley (38:33)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (38:34)
someone who is where you were right now and they're listening to you, what would you tell them knowing what

you know?

Fletch Wiley (38:39)
Gee you know, Jesus is the author of life. You know, there's nothing it's like when Jesus said some hard things to his disciples and he said and all the people left him, he said, Are you gonna leave too? And Peter said, Where are we gonna go? You have the words of life, you know.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (38:57)
Yes.

Fletch Wiley (38:58)
And that's what I'd say. Cho always choose Jesus. He he has created you unique, okay? He's given you certain gifts and you already kind of know what those gifts are. And and yet you probably have more than even those. So pray, seek the Lord with all your heart, and he will absolutely lead you and guide you into all truth. And whether you're young or old or you know, just starting out

And and you have a creative bent, I'd say s Lord show show me how to use this for you. Show me you know, help me to

Find people who are like-minded and and there's a lot of groups like that now. You know, it when when we were doing stuff fifty years ago, there wasn't a whole there was no worship seminars and things like that. And that's why I wrote a little worship pamphlet that's at the end of this book, and it's still as validated. Biblical concepts and music. What does the Bible say about music? I didn't know. And then it says a lot. But he's uniquely quali he's already qualified you, okay, because he's called you.

He's qu he who he calls, he qualifies. All right. now that doesn't mean you you're you know everything because you don't. You're gonna have to learn some skills along the way to aid you for i if if your walk is professional. Most of us now will not have a professional artistic

life, you know.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (40:30)
Very true.

Fletch Wiley (40:31)
That won't be our vocation. It's just the difficult time for for that to be the vocation. But that doesn't mean you can't be f extremely fruitful in what you're doing. And even making records, you know, writing songs, creating art, dan I love dance. I think that's the wonderful expression of the kingdom in that. And so God has uniquely qualified you and He's called you. So just pray and He's gonna lead you. The Holy Spirit will lead you.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (40:59)
Could not be better said. Clearly, somebody right now is just that, wait a minute, that's right. I can follow Jesus. And then seeking Him first, He'll give you all those desires. He'll give you all the things that will be added. And to you, He's added being an author, being a composer, arranger, a producer, a minister, like he's added so much to your plate that your cup is clearly overflowing, my friend. I've been absolutely blessed and honored. I hope this will not be the last time we get to glean from your information.

Fletch Wiley (41:25)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (41:25)
I will make sure all the links to both your book and

And to your website, I believe it is fletchwiley.com,

Fletch Wiley (41:32)
Yeah, that's it.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (41:32)
to make sure that they can find everything that you're doing and continue to do. Again, you said it, you can't retire. You're just gonna continue going and

Fletch Wiley (41:40)
Okay.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (41:41)
doing even more for God's kingdom. And I just I'm in here for it. I wanna be along for the ride.

Fletch Wiley (41:45)
Well thank you, Alan. I I love your program and I think I think you ask a lot of great questions that people are

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (41:51)
Thank you.

Fletch Wiley (41:52)
they're hungry hungry to know. Now the next thing I hope we get to play together one day, okay. So come on.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (41:57)
the that would be an absolute bucket list. you

let me know when you want to take a quick trip down to South Florida. Definitely do it in the winter so that you can escape any cold. And yeah, absolutely

Fletch Wiley (42:07)
Well, I'm in Te I'm in Texas so it doesn't matter, you know.

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (42:10)
about that. Well, you guys had a couple of cold snaps, but yeah, still we have the connection right there across there. So I would

Fletch Wiley (42:12)
Yeah, we actually

Allen C. Paul | Founder, God and Gigs (42:16)
love to again thank you for being a part of the God and gig show. You have been a blessing to our community, and I hope this won't be the last time.

Fletch Wiley (42:23)
God bless you, brother. Thank you so much.