The Uncomfortable Truth About Doing Business as a Christian Creator w/ Jake Doberenz, Podcast Producer

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (00:00)
Is it a sin to sell? I know that sounds like an extreme, but some Christians act like anytime you ask to be paid for a service, that somehow you're the one that's out of line. And that can become a burden on every Christian creator who is trying to figure out the line between business and ministry. Our guest, Jake Dobrens knows that line very well. As a podcast producer, author and consultant, he's been in the

thick of navigating the mainstream of arts and entertainment without compromising his faith or his ethics, but it hasn't been easy. And if you want to finally get some clarity on how you can show up as a Christian creator and entrepreneur unapologetically, this is the episode that you need to hear from beginning to end. I'm Alisey Paul, host of God and Gates and founder of this platform. And I invite you to stick around and hear how Jake has found the message and the motivation to be 100 % dedicated to God, but also 100 % dedicated to doing creative business right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (01:11)
Jake Doberenz, welcome to the God in Gig Show. How are you doing, my friend?

Jake Doberenz (01:16)
⁓ man, doing great. ⁓ You know, I've been a listener, now I'm on the show, so it's like full circle, it's great.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (01:25)
Well, thank you, number one, for being a listener. then, like you said, full circle, I always try to get all the backstory out quickly because it's so easy just to fall into us talking like old friends. You did have me on one of your previous shows, the Creatively Christian podcast, and this was years ago. So I know we're like trying to catch up. Like it's like old friends meeting at a family reunion or a class reunion, trying to remember what's happened over the last 10 years. So I'm not going to make you try to do all of that at once.

Jake Doberenz (01:52)
yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you know, the, short version of my Mac backstory, we can kind of start most of the conversation today goes back to early 2020. It's about five years ago. Um, when I first started podcasting as my latest creative endeavor, and then the creatively Christian show came about in 2021 where I was behind the scenes. was the producer guy doing everything except the interviews, the episode. And so one of our hosts had you on for that.

So you've been podcasting for five years now. Now I've turned those talents to other people instead of just my own project. So that is the real short, maybe a little longer than elevator pitch, a backstory.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (02:40)
No, I love it. And that's exactly what my first questions is, is when people meet you for the first time, right? You try to squeeze it all into five seconds because no one remembers all that stuff. But thankfully we have our show notes where they can follow you and they can find out all about you. But I am curious when it comes to this area of your life, because you're not just a podcaster. I've seen you working, sir. You have been sharing your life story in terms of your...

Writing in terms of children's books like you have been all over the map my friend and so you are clearly the kind of creative who has had to navigate through your calling right your skills and Running a business. So this is the perfect place for us to dig into some of that more of your story so I do want to get to like a little bit of you know, the origin story of Where you even entered into creative life some people it's like I was a musician

Some people I started writing when I was in high school. What was the first inkling you had that you kind of had this desire to express yourself creatively? Cause that will help us kind of fill in the gaps when we hear what you're doing now.

Jake Doberenz (03:47)
Oh yeah, So glad you asked this question because I haven't told this story in a while, but for me, it was like a particular moment that I can trace back to. If we all go back to fifth grade with me, I'm like, what are you 10 years old in fifth grade? Uh, we had, you know, we had an assignment in class, a writing assignment. Uh, we were supposed to write a narrative, write a story. This wasn't my first time writing stories. had done that before and I had enjoyed it before, but

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (04:04)
Yeah, that's right about it.

Jake Doberenz (04:16)
In this particular story, I wrote kind of a ⁓ parody of entering the fifth grade. made it sound really dramatic and use lots of hyperbole. Like it was going be so terrifying to start fifth grade and things like that. And I was afraid that teacher was going to have fangs or whatever. Like I just, I hyped it up, Hyperbole all the way. And ⁓ that was the story. I was like, you know what?

I like creativity. I like writing. I want to tell stories. And so at that time I was planning a book series about fifth grade that was kind of that same style of just a lot of hyperbole and craziness kind of thing and ⁓ never ended up executing on any of those projects. But that's where it all began. And then years later, we're talking maybe 10 years later, I actually find that story that I wrote.

⁓ handwritten story. I found it, ⁓ you know, years later in some school stuff and I read it and it was probably one of the, it was the worst story I've ever written. was, it was terrible. It was so bad. Everything was spelled incorrectly. I still today have, I'm terrible at spelling. Everything was spelled wrong. I know you're right. I know. And the, this whole story that I was going to turn into a book was one nine and a half by 11 piece of paper.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (05:23)
You

You- you in fifth grade! You gotta give yourself some grace!

Jake Doberenz (05:41)
The entire story was on one side, not even double-sided one side. It had like five, six paragraphs. Each paragraph was like three sentences. It was terrible. But you know what? It was still that story that said, I like this. It's fun to, to be a creative, to be a storyteller. That is what got me hooked. And honestly, I can trace it back to that very moment in fifth grade.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (06:08)
Okay, so we share something in common. I always try not to insert myself in every conversation, but my fourth, fifth grade book or whatever, like little story was called The Space Chemist. Don't ask me why I was interested in chemistry or space or why I thought those two were combined, but I still, I think, have that book. And so I love the little breadcrumbs that you were able to go back and see, wait, this was a part of what I was already becoming.

Jake Doberenz (06:20)
Hmm.

Hehehe

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (06:37)
before it became any kind of profession. think it was Picasso that says, every child is an artist, a problem is remaining an artist when he grows up. And so that's where I think we land now, right? You are now a, I guess you could say a professional creator, right? You earn your living from doing, whether it be podcasting or helping other people create podcasts, you are living in the creative space. So I guess the first question I should ask you is when it comes down to

Jake Doberenz (06:45)
There you go.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (07:06)
the first struggle or first aha moment when it comes to, a minute, I'm not just a creator. I'm not just out here with a God given gift. I actually have to run a business. What was that first moment for you where you realized the business side of the creative dream that you just mentioned that, you know, learning how to create and share things.

Jake Doberenz (07:31)
Yeah, I mean, I got the entrepreneurial bug pretty early and it was actually podcast listening to podcasts when I was at a really boring university archives job, just filing papers and stuff. And so like I developed kind of that business mindset, in, in a lot of spaces, I had various different business ideas and side hustle kind of things, but weirdly, like, I don't know, I didn't apply that to like my more creative work. Like it was at first it was like, this is my

you know, sacred space kind of thing. Like you can't let the, scary business words into this realm here kind of thing. Right. ⁓ so it took a while. It took a while. mean, in 2020 is when I founded Theophany Media, which started to produce my podcast, but it was also, and it still is to this day, sort of my secret umbrella operations for all the various hats I wear and things, including the books, fiction and nonfiction. I,

Published playwright to you know, which you know a big month for me is like it's 50 bucks I mean somebody performed one of my short plays somewhere So but usually it's more like $10 a month I get from from selling some of those plays so like I got all that stuff and I kind of put that under the umbrella because you know tax reasons and stuff and things like that, but but I had to organize my life and and that was a huge struggle at first because

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (08:49)
Yeah.

Jake Doberenz (08:55)
Some of the stuff I did was more explicitly Christian and some stuff was just not, it was just more creative stuff. And you know, lot of, for a long time, I was kind of told like, nobody told me necessarily you have to like pick a space. ⁓ it doesn't have to, it wasn't Christian verse secular, but it was more like you have to have, what's your thing? What's your, your niche, your niche, or however you say it these days. ⁓

and I was very resistant to that. But I created a business to kind of help operate that and over time I did have to learn that hard lesson of narrowing down some things or at least some things take more precedent than others. One of the choices I had to make in my business was, you know, for my fiction stuff, my fiction books, I just do that for fun. It's not the biggest moneymaker. I just love it. And it does make me a little money, but not a lot to live off of.

And then I have to balance other projects. So business and that kind of thinking has to come into play because now you're dealing with money and, then you have, there's certain legal things you got to do. You got to make decisions, all of that. I eventually had to learn. Okay. Yeah. I got to incorporate. like I said, in 2020, theophany media became the umbrella for whatever creative scheme I was going to work on this month.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (10:21)
I love the fact that you just brought in why this is something that sometimes seems kind of big and scary, almost like you mentioned the teacher, like the big and scary monster of business, right? ⁓ I wonder, because you mentioned this quickly, but I don't want to go past it, when you mentioned not just niching down and finding your thing inside your particular creative space, but when you mentioned the Christian versus secular.

because that is a struggle for, would say, it's the reason why this podcast actually exists, to be straight up with you. As a musician, the very reason why I created the space was because I didn't see anybody talking about, wait, I'm a Christian musician performing in wherever. And I hate even the word secular because I think secular is a literally a modern term that we...

Jake Doberenz (11:08)
I agree, 100%. Yeah.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (11:09)
that

we brought in to kind of define things that don't involve God, when everything involves God, but that's another conversation we can have on your podcast for sure. Sounds like something that we write down in your alley. But I want to talk a little bit about being a Christian business, a Christian creative, and now having to try to figure out, okay, how do I promote?

Jake Doberenz (11:17)
Yeah, there we go.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (11:34)
Ethically and not feeling like people feel like I'm selling the gospel whatever kind of term because there's so many ways we go down this path, right? But you have to navigate this because you just mentioned you are serving other Christian businesses Christian podcasts and You're doing so with the company which very clearly says we are a godly company But you also operate in the mainstream marketplace So how have you navigated that and has it ever become like a struggle or any kind of obstacle for you?

Jake Doberenz (11:39)
Mmm.

Well, I'll go back to the writing to set the stage for some things because, ⁓ as I went through college and things like that, like I got, you know, have a bachelor's in biblical studies. I have a master's in theological studies. was very like education wise, like I'm in the Christian space kind of thing. And so I felt like that's all I had to exist in that way. was stuck in there and, in fifth grade, after I abandoned my horrors of fifth grade,

book kind of series. next one was about Super Jake, this kind of superhero character that was, um, a little too obviously based off of myself. Um, and, that was, that became my dream. I planned out that that became this character I was obsessed with. And I told, I wrote short stories and things. And, and so then, you know, way in the future, I had always had this dream of publishing this book and things like that, but it wasn't, uh, Christian. I mean, it wasn't like.

explicit. And so I was like, I don't know how to, I don't know what to do with this thing. What do I do with it? But in a phone call with my brother, ⁓ he just kind of assured me that like, well, like, you know, it's, it's okay to like do something that's not with that, you know, label in it. ⁓ and what I did do in that book was have some sort of subtle Christian things, like when you have Christian values,

But you also have characters that mentioned, we went to church on Sunday. Let's pray about this. And it isn't like at the forefront. ⁓ it isn't like shoved in your face. There's no scene with a sermon kind of thing where you get the moral of the story, but it's a world where the characters just happen to be Christian. So guess what? They're going to mention going to church. They're going to mention prayer. Like that's just because they happen to be Christian. It pops up.

And that is my approach to, I think, business. Whether it's a story or a business, we just happen to be Christians. So guess what? It's going to show up. It just will. It will change things. Even if we're not trying to have that Christian moral message or come to Jesus moment or everybody come down to the altar and confess your sins or whatever. We don't need to have that moment, but you know what? It shows up.

It does. And so, you know, I started this company really with the desire to serve Christians and to work with ministries and nonprofits and things like that. And I still have that desire, but just in the course of things, other people start asking you questions and want to be your clients. And we can dig more into this. reality is like financially, many of the quote unquote non-Christian secular clients

are just able to pay me more, right? They just have more of a budget, especially because they're making a profit off of you typically in selling things, whereas your nonprofit ⁓ is not always profitable and things like that. And so you have to start accepting these. And there's some things to navigate. know, for me, the biggest issue is like, have some, I have some podcasts that I produce and edit where the people just kind of cuss sometimes and it's not like,

anything beyond that, but that is something that bothers people and things like that. And so like you have to kind of say, okay, well, that's not going to be my biggest deal that they said this word. Like if they were totally promoting something crazy or talking about sexual exploits or something like that would be some lines we would draw, but you have to say like, they don't hold my worldview, but then they know

they know me and they know my worldview and how I approach things. And, ⁓ and because of that, I think that actually attracts them to me. different topic, but I remember years ago in college, ⁓ there were several programs recruiting English teachers to go to China. And what was really fascinating about that is even though China is a secular communist atheist country,

They wanted the Christian teachers to come over because the Christians weren't going to get in trouble. They weren't going to philander and make a mess of things. They knew they were ethical and good. So the Chinese government preferred Christian English teachers. Wild thing. I think the same case applies to business sometimes that people almost prefer it. They know you're not going to screw them over or whatever. They know you're going to be ethical and good.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (16:27)
Mmm.

Jake Doberenz (16:49)
And they might not share your worldview, but they say, I want to work with you. So, well, you know, where do you want to go now? Like, there's a lot of different directions there from what I all said.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (16:58)
Yeah, no, this

is a great point. I love the last point you made in terms of the fact that your work speaks for you as a Christian. When we go by Colossians and it says, do everything as unto the Lord, right? That is talking about employment. He was talking about masters. He was in the context of how do you operate? then again, we can go all the way down this path. When you look at every major prophet, they all served under foreign. ⁓

Jake Doberenz (17:15)
Yes, he was.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (17:27)
atheists, well, not atheists, they served other gods, right? They served other gods. And then have Daniel and Isaiah and all these other people who heard from God clearly, but they were never told to leave or to, you know, I guess you could say boycott in our language, right? They never boycotted the economy that they were put in. They served God under these foreign leaders and were able to be excellent like Daniel had an excellent spirit. He got the king's attention and then was

Jake Doberenz (17:29)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (17:57)
ended up working for him and was able to have influence over the culture in some sort, was never, you know, he never, what you call, he never made the entire nation Jewish. They didn't convert because he was there, but he was able to show up and, know, Joseph, we can go down the road. Right. So I am curious in terms of not necessarily your impact when you serve other clients, when it comes to people outside in the mainstream media.

but more in terms of how people inside the Christian world view ⁓ selling, whether you've ever had to struggle to explain what's natural for us, that you're making a living, like in terms of like your podcasting, you're good at what you do, other people want to pay you. ⁓ I hate to go down this road, but we have to. There's some times where we find our worst customers may not be the people who are on the outside who are-

apparently ungodly, right? So I hate to go down this road, but I think you and I both have to deal with that when you've had to explain the ethics of being a good customer to people who should know. What would your thoughts be about that?

Jake Doberenz (18:53)
Yeah.

Well, while I was doing Creatively Christian, ⁓ which was a show that lasted three or four years, ⁓ and we were interviewing Christian artists of all type, I was deep in that community of Christian creatives. And I would say a good majority of them were creating something kind of more specifically Christian. There's a lot of people that were doing other stuff too. ⁓

We got movie directors, we had writer, all that kind of stuff. So I was in that space and I was thinking of ways to serve that space. And I was listening. What are people telling me they struggle with? And particularly as a writer, I was concerned with other Christian writers. And so I did, I did surveys and I asked questions and I had conversations. Like I would say, jump on a zoom call and let's talk about some stuff. Like I did some real deep research into what people wanted.

And something I heard a lot was, I don't know how to get my, my books message out there. don't know how to market my book. I don't know how to do this marketing, huge pain point for a lot of people. So then I started saying, okay, let me create an offer to help you. Everybody told me biggest pain point. have a huge issue with this. I need help. You know, uh, they sound the alarm about it.

So I created some offers and some different things for that. And I said, okay, now pay me and you can have this help here, this offer. And then it was like unanimously. Nope, we're not going to pay you. We don't want to do that. I heard, my goodness. I heard so many times the Holy spirit will help me market my book. And I know, man, I know. And I said, well, you know, the Holy spirit can work through courses and.

You know, trainings and books too, but all right, whatever. ⁓ and so that was my first major issue with, with Christian clients. And I was working with Christian authors and they were telling me, they told me this is an issue, but I'm not paying for it. I will not spend any money fixing my problem. And I was bamboozled. And a lot of what I heard was, well, if God wanted this to happen, if God wanted my book to be popular, God would just make my book popular.

magically or something like that. You know, that Holy Spirit thing. heard that. Um, and I heard also people talking about being good stewards of their money, which, you know, like that, that can be good. Obviously I'm not, and I wasn't charging anything crazy. I wasn't saying, give me $10,000, you know, nothing even close to that. Uh, and a lot of people were like, I can't spend money on this side thing. Cause for a lot of these authors writing was a side thing or cause it wasn't paying the bills.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (21:57)
True.

Jake Doberenz (21:59)
But then I told them, but if you want it to pay more of your bills, you have to invest in that. And I don't know, they weren't hearing it. So eventually I had to pivot away from helping Christian writers. ⁓ and, and it was, it was sad cause it was people I really wanted to serve, but I was giving them a lot of time and effort and, ⁓ they were not paying for things that I knew were valuable to them.

And in retrospect, know, there's some, could have changed my offer up a little bit. There's some different things I could have done. Uh, but even when I was making things cheaper than they probably should have been, they weren't, uh, they weren't jumping on those offers. They just weren't giving me money and it was crazy. And the last thing I'll say on that is you, and I, well, I thought maybe there could be some flukes here. Maybe it was a bit me. Um, earlier this year, I had a friend of mine who

was similarly trying to help that Christian writing space. Doing a little bit of a different thing. ⁓ He talked with me and I said, listen, I tried this, it didn't work. And here's what I did. And he's like, well, maybe if I do this and that. But this friend ran into the same issues where he was not getting some bites from the people he was trying to serve. People were loving his stuff as long as it was free. And then you start saying, well,

I'm putting a lot of time into this and if you want this extra stuff, you got to start paying. People weren't having it. So he had to pivot too. So nothing against my Christian writing friends. These were fiction, nonfiction. Everybody's a little different. Maybe it was just the circles I was running in. But that is one of the major issues that I found. Less of an issue in the podcasting space. Still a little bit. Because you know,

podcast it takes a lot of time and effort to do it right and so if you're have me help you you're gonna pay for my time and effort and that doesn't always make people happy so boy it's it's been a journey I'll say it that way

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (24:09)
I can man. OK, so

this I'm literally just feeling like we're having a therapy session right now for every single person who has stepped into this arena and heard these statements. The two the only two scriptures. And again, I don't like to spiritualize every single thing, but this one is ringing in my head. And I know this is talking about salvation is not talking about business, but it applies when it talks about which of you goes to build a tower.

Jake Doberenz (24:17)
I know.

Yes.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (24:38)
and does not consider the cost. So why do people I'm saying this rhetorically, I'm not asking you the question because this is like it's just me just like in my head. Why do people think you're going to build a career, build a platform, build anything and not realize there's a cost? And then, like you said, try to throw it all on the Holy Spirit and everything. I'm a musician. I know good and well my equipment costs money for me to go out there and just pray that God drops a piano into every venue.

Jake Doberenz (24:44)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (25:08)
It's just not going to happen. I have to spend the money to have the equipment to bless people. And then the second thing, which does lead into a question, is how do we encourage each other as Christian creators to make those pivots, to not feel like you have deserted the Christian community when you run into these things? Because as you said so well earlier, your work will attract other people.

Jake Doberenz (25:09)
That's right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (25:36)
and actually become an evangelism tool when they do say, well, what do you do? Where do you go to church? I had a podcast interview on a ⁓ episode or a show that I can't mention the title because as you mentioned, there's a curse word in the title of the show, but I was so honored that this person wanted to hear from me and she knows I am very, very much a man of faith. And she said it very close. She's like, I want to speak to a man of faith about this. So what would you say to those of us who are

Jake Doberenz (25:51)
You

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (26:06)
in the mainstream we are creating, but we keep running into these roadblocks of people are not buying, I'm trying to keep it holy or trying to present my stuff only to this one particular market. What would you be your encouragement to those people, both in spiritual and in the practical?

Jake Doberenz (26:24)
Well, we already talked about that, niching down kind of thing. And I, I don't even know what I believe about that anymore because I, myself and constantly pulled between being a generalist, cause I'm a man that wears many hats and does many creative things, right? And knowing, there is power in specializing. ⁓ but you know, for, for my current production company, for what Fiafani Media does for clients.

I first said I wanted to work with mission driven and nonprofits. That's what I defined. That is my audience. And that hasn't changed. That is still my, that's what I tell people. What clients do you serve? Mission driven businesses and nonprofits. And I use the word mission driven instead of Christian, because there's some other things that can kind of court companies and things that want to do some good that have that kind of same spirit that I have that kind of thing. But even though I say that, and I still target them, that's my, my niche.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (26:58)
Okay.

Right.

Jake Doberenz (27:24)
⁓ other people do come in and I take other opportunities because one of the realities, and there's boundaries to this, but one of the realities is sometimes I need money to live my life. Crazy. ⁓ it's so weird. Honestly, I don't like it. I don't really like money, but I don't know how to escape that right now until I like start my own farm and live on a commune. I have to have money. and so

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (27:39)
Sometimes.

Jake Doberenz (27:53)
right now because I'm relatively at the beginning stages of my business. I do accept most clients that I feel like I have the skills to help and you know, are not too ⁓ drifted from my mission and vision. And what happens a lot of times now too is some of those clients that aren't really my ideal client, but they pay the bills, they end up helping me be able to get to the other clients.

that I really want to work with, that maybe you can't pay as much, maybe you can't be as involved and things like that. And so I don't know this is solution for everybody, but at least for me, when it comes to all my creative work, it's helpful to think about there's the things that are the moneymakers that help support the things that maybe aren't quite financially as profitable. So like I mentioned, my fiction books are for fun.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (28:22)
Yeah.

Jake Doberenz (28:51)
but not really profitable, but non-fiction is a little easier to sell. the podcast productions, there's other aspects of my life and my business do some preaching and speaking as well. That stuff can fund other aspects of my life. And particularly again, with the podcast production, I can offer discounts to nonprofits and ministries and things because somebody else is essentially paying for it. And I've just built that into my profit model.

where I, it's not, don't do it arbitrarily or unfairly, but the for-profit businesses pay more than the nonprofit or the ministry businesses. That's how I built my model so that in the end I can pay what I'm worth and I can still do the things that I care about. So that's one suggestion. Think about how you organize the different facets of your creativity. Some things are just money makers and you got to do them. And then other things.

don't bring home the bacon, but they can be supported by the other aspects. It's all interconnected.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (29:58)
100 % know this is golden kind of advice because I think number one you mentioned being a generalist and having all these other skills and most of us are talking we're talking to a lot of poly masks a lot of people who are multi hyphenate this this this this this and they do a lot of creative things because God has gifted them in that and so I have the exact same just to get kind of like to confirm it the exact same situation is literally here with this podcast God and gigs has never been the moneymaker now it has created

Jake Doberenz (30:09)
yeah.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (30:26)
a lot of relationships and new connections like you and I, where had I not had it, there would not be this opportunity to jump into different things like speaking, like writing my books, things like that, that came out of the other thing that wasn't the moneymaker. But one of the things I tell people all the time is when you lean into those other side hustles and you do invest a little bit, right? You give it a little bit of juice, a little bit of stuff to kind of get it going. Then you realize, wait a minute.

Jake Doberenz (30:29)
Absolutely.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (30:53)
I am my biggest benefactor because my full-time job or my other side hustle, which is a little bit bigger for me to music, Music funds the other portions of my business. So the whole multiple streams of income thing that people keep yelling about, like a lot of people, think don't understand what that really means. They think it means having a real estate thing on the other side. You know what I mean? Like it can be different pillars of your business. That's what I'm hearing you saying. And then leaning into that where people who do pay you more in a certain area.

Jake Doberenz (31:02)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (31:24)
can fund the more mission-minded, kingdom-minded parts of your business to the point that you can actually give those people a discount. But the point is not to get a discount. The point is you're still being kingdom-minded. You're not trying to cheapen yourself. And I think that's one of the things that we should definitely talk about, just to cheapen in yourself. Again, I'm kind of going back to the 101 for those who might be listening or thinking like, okay, I hadn't even got to the point where I feel comfortable even charging.

Jake Doberenz (31:39)
Absolutely.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (31:53)
So I'm trying to pull it back to them as well. Maybe you don't have a business like Jake and I have now, but you do need to see the value in what you create, no matter who you're selling to. Can you talk a little bit to that first person who's still trying to get beyond the free thing? Because you said it, we all need money. But for some reason, Christians, we still struggle with this when it comes to our God given gift being a vehicle for earning an income. I don't know why that is, but we got to help a few more people with that.

Jake Doberenz (32:21)
Yeah, I mean, I struggle with this a lot, especially as imposter syndrome kind of interacts with all this, too. I think that's another reason of, I'm not worth that much. But like, I'm not the best podcast producer person. I don't know everything, but I've been podcasting for five years. I've taken the courses, I've done all the things. ⁓ know, go to those pod match. ⁓

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (32:26)
Mmm.

Jake Doberenz (32:49)
whatever you want to call them, webinar things that I know you've done before. So I learn a lot and I know a lot and I have experience and that is valuable because Joe Schmo doesn't have that experience or that and doesn't have that insider look too. I also have to remind my friends who make podcasts, just because you listen to a podcast doesn't mean you know how to do it, but that's with actually any creative thing.

If you listen to music, that doesn't mean you could play it. If read a book, doesn't mean you could write one. But I know the insider stuff. have something of value. And so it's important to remember that we have something of value with whatever experiences or skills that we have. And when something is valuable, somebody who really wants it will pay for it. When it comes back to those Christian writers and stuff, they told me marketing was their biggest challenge.

But if they weren't willing to put up, you know, a hundred bucks or whatever it was, then I don't actually think that was really a challenge for them. At least it wasn't a value. They, they're values. And I have different opinions on what their values were, but they didn't see that as valuable. they didn't pay it. But there are people that will see your experiences, your things as valuable. And in this creative businesses, especially when we start putting a lot of time, time it.

is limited. Time is limited and we have to make sometimes decisions. If I'm going to work on this project for a long time, I need to make sure it's financially worth it to me, where I have struggled, especially with podcasting clients, clients that I think are really great. So I give them a bunch of free strategy sessions. I give them some free help and advice. And maybe when I do charge them, I'm

pretty nice and things like that with my pricing is a lot cheaper and then that ends up being a lot of work where I could be spending it doing something else but it doesn't really give me a good time for dollar kind of equation so we have to think about that too we're spending a lot of time on anything ⁓ it's reasonable it's how the economy works people pay for that that you have something of valuable so

think we have to overcome some of those particular mindsets. And when it comes to charging, my typical recommendation is charge a little bit more than you're comfortable with. Maybe not too much, but a little bit more because we typically undervalue ourselves. So if you think, oh, I should be paid $50 for that project. Maybe you charge 60, 65 because you're probably mentally undercharging yourself, but somebody else will probably

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (35:28)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Jake Doberenz (35:44)
recognize the value and will be much more willing to charge you more. But that's a tough one, I struggle with this. You probably did too. A lot of people listening. Yeah. It's hard to start putting price tags on things.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (35:57)
It's

It's so the reason I think we struggle the most is because we number one again, we're talking about for our fellow believers who feel that, you know, they know that technically this gift is a free gift of God, right? Whatever you did, even if you invested in yourself, even if you worked hard, you know that this originally came from God and that, know, you feel this whole, again, the whole idea of ministry being for sale just makes everybody feel icky, right? And I think number one,

getting rid of that, reading about Paul, hearing how Paul kept his job as a tent maker, realizing that he was literally saying that he wanted fruit to abound to someone's account by basically asking them to give. And he's like, I want this to be part of your story that you invested into the kingdom, that you invested into your gift, that you invested. want, that's why I try to keep my prices where they are. This was one of the most humbling things I ever had, Jake, when my, my, my God in Gates membership, I have a higher tier.

membership. Not again, not a large amount, but definitely something where someone who's a creator would have to put aside some money. And I did a free call for one of our clients or one of our students and she said, I am working so hard and I'm so excited about the time when I can finally afford your program. And it was such a humbling thing. It was like, wait a minute, I've given you something to shoot for?

I've given you a reason to pull yourself together and to try to invest in yourself, not because I need the money, but because this presents something that you aspire to. so for that, I would even think of selling as service. I think a lot of us struggle with that, but the Bible says very clearly in Proverbs, the curse is the one who withholds the grain, but blessed is the one, they will bless the person who sells it. When people have a need, unlike your Christian writers, unfortunately, right?

Jake Doberenz (37:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (37:51)
When

people do realize that there is a need and they can fill it, they're glad when they find it. So I always think of it in terms of how can I serve someone with this product? And then the last little piece of guru advice I heard, which I think sounds right, is that when people buy things, they will almost always convince themselves it's a discount because no one likes to overpay for anything. So all of us mentally say this is worth it as soon as you put the money down, because no one likes to feel like they're taking advantage of. So the second they agree to the price,

Jake Doberenz (38:10)
Hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (38:20)
they are telling themselves a story. It's why the wine bottles that cost $100,000 seem to taste better than the one that's a $10 because we tell ourselves that. So there's so much of this. Again, I know we could dig into it so much, but I do want to come back to your personal story because I am so, I admire your story so much. Your current podcast, Smashing Idols, goes to a deep topic in theology, which

Jake Doberenz (38:27)
Sure. huh. Yeah. I like that.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (38:45)
It's not easy to talk about, but I've admired you from, again, we could go down a whole nother road when it comes to politics and religion and how the discourse happens and how do we navigate these things. So I kind want to pull back to what you talked about being a generalist, having all of these passions, but still finding a voice for the things that you feel need to exist in the world, whether they make you money or not. So just talk a little bit to someone who is kind of feeling that tug of, I'm passionate about this, but I can't make money with it. Or.

I feel God is pulling me in this direction to share this, I don't know if I should be there. So just talk a little bit about this season of your life, how you've seen kind of those, what seem like different passions still create a harmonious whole for you.

Jake Doberenz (39:30)
Yeah. Well, you know, I, I am a creative. I like helping other people bring their stuff to life and things like that. But I want to have my originality. I want to have my stuff and it's a little bit something I'm still navigating. I have the Jake Dobrin's brand, and then I have the business, Fiafani Media part of it. And you know, like on LinkedIn.

All I talk about is podcasting. That's it. I'm just talking about podcasting all the time. Then on threads, now it's religion and theology and the Bible. And so those were some choices, not that I'm scared of LinkedIn finding out, but just about selecting the kind of spaces and how I would like to show up in those spaces. have to be thinking, you think critically about that. Use some wisdom. ⁓ but I, I have a message. have a voice.

So we recently changed the title of show. It's now called Christianity without compromise. So it's formally Smashing Idols. Still the same vision, ⁓ but nobody understood what I said Smashing Idols. So now they a little bit at least know it has that Christian angle in it with the title change. But I'm talking about some hard things, right? And it's difficult ⁓ because I have some passions and things that other people

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (40:34)
Hmm.

Jake Doberenz (40:58)
There's some controversy in there, let's just say. As you're talking about, want you to focus on Jesus and not this other crazy culture war distractions, idolatrous, whatever, overemphasis thing. Focus on Jesus alone. And while the focus on Jesus part most Christians are on board with, the other parts, you can step on some toes, because I am smashing their idols and people don't like that. ⁓ And so that's an interesting dynamic, but

Yeah, the pillars of my actual business of Theophany Media support my quote unquote Jake Delbern's brand and things like that. My podcast doesn't make any money. I mention my books and things sometimes, and maybe in the future there'll be a way to kind of make that more financially profitable, I suppose. But right now that's my hobby. But the money I make for my business supports that. And there have been some times too where

I was hiring some ⁓ podcast editors for my team. And what I did is I sent, sent the guy, ⁓ my Christianity without compromise episode and said, edit this for me. I'll pay you. was a paid test as kind of his, editing test. So then I got, you know, I, there's some ways like that in which there's kind of that intersection. ⁓ and of course the, the show itself, the creative show is a way to show.

that know how to do this. know what I'm talking about. I'm actively hosting and things like that. ⁓ so it all intertwines. But again, it kind of comes back down to that. You have some pillars that pay the bills and other pillars that are just kingdom work. They're just for the kingdom. And I, I have a message that I can't just hide, even though like, I mean, I get in an ideal world, maybe I would only do

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (42:41)
you

Jake Doberenz (42:54)
that podcast and my writing and speaking. In an ideal world, I'd probably only do that. We don't live in an ideal world. And I still enjoy the other stuff. It's not that I hate helping other people do podcasts and stuff, but those are some decisions I had to make. I wanted to build a lifestyle which involves money, but it also involves how my time is spent in order to do the kingdom work that I wanted to do. That's how I've set up my whole life.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (43:24)
Gosh, I'm so glad you landed there. That shows why we are really united in terms of our focus and ⁓ our way that we help other creators, right? That lifestyle. is really honestly what you mentioned earlier about the way that we walk as creators, as business people, that people will just see it, right? They'll just see how you function as a creator, as a business person, as a person.

Jake Doberenz (43:34)
Mm-hmm.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (43:52)
I know this is sometimes misattributed and people use this as an excuse, but the whole phrase or the quote about, preach the gospel always and instead when necessary use words. I know people use it as a cop out, but it's also true. We do preach the gospel through our actions as creators and business people. And that does draw people to the gospel when they see you living it out.

Jake Doberenz (44:08)
Yeah.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (44:16)
Even in terms of the that you do business. And so I love this Jake, this has been a great conversation. I know they're going to want to hear more from you, whether it's from your podcast, ⁓ under the new branding. want to make sure I get that right. Is create Christianity without compromise. that correct? Awesome. So, so I'll be in the show notes that you can follow that. And please, I know some people are old school. They still like to write things down. So just tell them how else they can connect with you and all of your different amazing creative, ⁓ out, ⁓ things that you share so that they can.

Jake Doberenz (44:29)
That's right. Yep, that's right.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (44:45)
learn more about you and what you do.

Jake Doberenz (44:48)
Yeah, my main kind of hub on the internet is Substack these days. I'm on Substack. JakeDoberns.substack.com. So if you subscribe there, you get my Friday newsletter, ⁓ which is still called Smashing Idols. And I just tell a humorous story and then make a spiritual point, usually around that topic of centering on Jesus and not the other stuff. And then on Tuesdays, I have the Chris Jay without compromise episode come out.

where I mostly have guests once a month, I have solo episodes as well, talking about everything from politics to technology and trying to control God and mental health, everything that can be good or can be bad, depending on how much emphasis we put on it. ⁓ So we have some really good engaging con stuff there, but yeah, on the podcasting side, like I said, I'm living on LinkedIn.

One of my clients called me a podcast evangelist because half of my work is just saying podcasts are cool. You should listen to them, which I hopefully everybody here agrees unless this is randomly your first time ever listened to a podcast, in which case join us. It's great. know, about a third of Americans listen to podcasts about once a week, two thirds once a month. So it's becoming more mainstream. It's becoming more mainstream. So all about that.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (45:49)
I it.

Jake Doberenz (46:15)
Yeah, that's where it checked me out, for sure.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (46:18)
Well,

I can tell you, man, I have always been a fan of your thought process, how you share things, how thoughtful you are when it comes to not just podcasting, but in terms of faith, I have been very, very much inspired to have my own voice and to lean into my own perspective because I see you doing so with freedom and with confidence that you're not doing it to gain clicks or just to get money or to get notoriety, but you're doing this from a sincere heart.

Which is why I know everything that you put your hand to will be successful and you'll continue to see new avenues. so eventually, yes, man, I see one day where that is the main thing where you're sharing directly from your heart. And it also takes care of your financial needs. Cause the Bible says seek first the kingdom of God and all of these things, right? All these things include our bills and everything else. But in the meantime, you've given some amazing practical advice to people on how to navigate this Christian creative lifestyle and to earn money and to do it the right way so that they can.

fulfill all those dreams that God put in. man, I hope this is not the last time you'll be on the God in Gigs show, but for this particular first time, thank you so much for being a guest. And it's been a pleasure, pleasure sharing these things with you.

Jake Doberenz (47:25)
It was awesome. Thanks so much, Alan.

Allen C. Paul - God And Gigs (47:30)
My friend, know that was a blessing to you. I was so impressed and so grateful for Jake's honesty and forthrightness where he didn't have to apologize for what he's learned as a podcast producer, as a consultant, as someone that has been right where we are creating and working on giving his best in both the sacred and the secular world so that he never has to apologize or feel like he is doing something different.

in either of those areas. And if that has blessed you, I would love you to let me know either in the comments of this specific episode, wherever you're watching or listening, or by sending us an email at alan at godandgigs.com. Just hearing that you were blessed by this means so much and that helps us know what we want to lean into as we create more content for you. And by the way, if you are also looking for some help,

in figuring out where you are in your creator business journey, I invite you to go take our quiz. Our creator mindset quiz helps you figure out exactly where you are right now, whether you're conflicted, whether you're confident, or maybe even if you're not sure if it's even the right time to share your creative ideas. This will help you do that. Go to gotandgigs.com slash quiz and you can find that.

or just look for the link in our show notes. Well, my friend, until next time, continue to become the creator that you were created to be. God bless and we'll see you next episode.