The Making of Dishonored & Prey | Raphael Colantonio

SPEAKER_01 0:00

After prey I really felt I didn't even know if I still wanted to make games. Too long, too painful, too much at stake, too hard to time deals, too stressful, and now of course working on a big game again. How do I feel when I see something like Baldur's Gate that hits it really hard? I feel hopeful again, like being a kid again, which I haven't felt in a long, long time. It's there, it's not dead. With sequels that don't need to be made, game as a service, just for the sake of it. People are fatigued, then you have to go back to the to what matters.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Hi there, my name is Steven Lake, and welcome to the Examine Game. Today I am talking with Rafael Colentonio, probably best known as the creative director behind the original Dishonored and Prey, and the former president of Arcane Studios that created some of the greatest video games that you or I have ever played. He is now the president of Wolf Eye Studios, where he is working on a very, very, very top secret Immersive Sim, which we talk about just a little bit in today's interview. But I wanted to talk to Raphael just about his brilliant catalogue of games. This is really a conversation about the beauty of Immersive Sims, what it is that he's done for the genre. Dishonored and Prey are two of my favorite immersive Sims of all time. Probably Prey is one of my favorite games of all time. I've never seen such beautifully rendered bathrooms ever before. And it was so cool just to get into really rich detail with what it took to make these games. As per usual, hearing about the risk taking that had to go on to make games like this come into existence. I would love it, love it if you would support me on my Patreon. You can join for free, or you can become a paying member and get exclusive content. You get early access to all my interviews before they go out live, and we generally have a pretty good time all in all. So I hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you very much. The thing I often like to start out on is I'd like to know what someone's playing right now, if if you're gaming at all. I didn't actually know that that had come out yet. I'd been reading up about it over the demo.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

I mean, I don't know if the demo was out or not, but I was given the demo. I was given a key for the demo, so I played the demo. And then what else? In the big big games, um I haven't played a big game in a long time. Like that I truly enjoyed. Um yeah, the AAA games have have been um it's weird because that's kind of like the area that I operate in, but I've been more into indie games lately.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

That's a little bit like me. With I spend more time playing video games than I do watching documentaries. Um I've got a bit more of a reason for it now. I'm doing the podcast. Um I had Edmund um on the show. It was really interesting hearing about I don't know, how he goes about making a game. He sort of seems to just be pleasing himself, and then that happens to please a lot of other people.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

I think I think it's I think it's the right approach. I think um as soon as you try to make a product uh as opposed to as opposed to think as a as a creative, as an artist, uh, I was talking about this with Harvey Smith, my friend, uh a few weeks ago, and we're like yeah, this industry is trying to cater to um just like making a product, you know. I mean that initially we did not think in those terms. We were just making something that we thought would be uh something interesting or something good or something expressive from an artistic standpoint, or something that needed to see the day. Instead, now we're thinking, how can I make as many sales as I can? Or you know, what are the checkboxes that I need to do? Um yeah, so I guess I I I do like his style, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

I'm sort of curious. I mean, not to like jump right into it, but off the back of that, uh, you know, it was interesting talking with Mark Darrow from Bioware, talking about you know, those like Boulders Gate and you know, this kind of runaway successive game like that. And I'm curious what it's like for you when you see commercial success. I often I think about this kind of trifects, you've got the business arm, you've got the players, and then you've got the creatives, and I think Arkane was a really good thing. There's some years there where it it felt very symbiotically, but then at some point that the scales tip, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, it's uh it's it's uh yeah, they have to meet somewhere, right? Um of course it makes most of all now than ever because you would think when it all started in the 80s or whatever, then you know the business part was not so important. It was more, hey, I got this idea, I'm just gonna put it together, and uh now it you can't do that because you need tons of money, so you need to you need the business to make sense. But I think they meet somewhere, it's a loop, it's a circle, because you if you if you go too hard on the business, which I think our industry has been into lately, uh, you know, with sequels that don't need to be made, uh game as a service, just for the sake of it, etc. etc. Check boxes in every ways, people are fatigued. It's just uh and and you know the it's not paying off as a business. So sometimes in order to make business smart business, then you have to go back to the to what matters, uh creativity and and uh you know, because it's yeah, as soon as you fall into a formula, as soon as you try to systemi systematize it, then you've you've you start to lose it, I think. And business is afraid of that because business likes um predictability, right? But uh to your point, how do I feel when I see something like Baldur's Gate that hits it really hard? Uh I I feel hopeful again. I I'm incredibly inspired by these guys. Um I love Larian, I love um, you know, I I did like already things like Original Sin, but um they made such a crazy, crazy job with really cool work with Baldur's Gate 3. Um I lost myself in it. I really, really enjoyed it. And um it was one of the rare games this past years where I was seeing the sincerity of the game developers. I was not again, I was not playing a product, I was actually forgetting that I was I was not studying the game, I was enjoying the game. I was just you know, like being a kid again, which I haven't felt in a long, long time. I mean, let's be let's be honest, maybe the last time I felt that was with maybe Fallout in Vegas. I mean, how sad is this? It was like 10 years how how long ago was the 15 years ago? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Way longer than that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Yeah, that's probably the last time I really felt that, and then I felt it again with Baldur's Gate 3. Um I hope I will fill it with the next scrolls, hopefully. I you know it's not that I haven't had any fun. I have I have had fun with with um uh Elden Ring. I have had a bunch of fun, but it's it's more like yeah, because again, Elden Ring is made with a lot of um honesty. I like to use more word honesty more than passion at this point. It's uncompromised, just a bunch of people that are doing what they know how to do and they they do it with love and and uh and and you know and it hits. That's that's what matters. I I hope I hope I make my games the same way. That's that's really what I hope.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Well, certainly for me when I've had the opportunity to play them, absolutely, and they're definitely it's really interesting when like you said about New Vegas, I sort of feel a little the same, and I do wonder if like I wonder how many dollars of money I've spent in pursuit of that feeling, and then always like falling short, you know, it's that it's that eternal optimism um that kind of keeps me spending my money, and then and that's sort of on me, and then I'm just going back and remodding New Vegas again so I can play it again, um, you know, or playing the like the Witcher 3, you know, like these 15, 10, 15-year-old games. There's this huge library out there, but they're just not not capturing in the same way. But I think how you said it, like making you feel like a child again. I I just feel like I'm constantly in pursuit of that. Yeah, that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, and it's there, right? I for many years I was wondering, am I losing it or are the games just um not creating that anymore? And I again I have you know, I think Baldur's Gate made me feel that again, so it it it proves it's there. It's uh it's there, it's not dead, it's just that there's very little amount of games that manage to create to to re recreate that that feeling.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

And what are uh so so those you talked a little about the games you've played recently? Do you know off the top of your head what your most played games of all time are?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Oh, um I mean I Yeah, it would be hard.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

I probably put a lot of hours in into Skyrim, into Fallout 3, into Fallout New Vegas. Um I I put crazy amount of hours into binding of Isaac, actually talking about the uh the mugenic guy. Uh crazy amount of time into into the breach, actually. Uh like hours and hours and hours into this game. Um as far as AAA games, yeah. Then we're gonna have to go further back in time, and and I'm embarrassed to say, you know, how back. Um I am I where like I really spent crazy, crazy amount of hours. Um, like Thief, for example. Um there's gotta be recent games. I mean, I mean I'm tempted now to look at my Steam. Okay, yeah. Well, Wasteland 2. That was a that was one that I played a lot. XCOM 2, there you go. That was another one I played, like crazy Inscription, Slay the Spire, played millions of hours on this game. Slay the Spire 2 as well. Baldur's Gate, of course, Mugenics, uh, Fallout in Vegas is there, Divinity Original Sin is there, Fallout 3. Um yeah, and uh right now I'm playing a lot actually of Kingdom Come Deliverance. I was resisting it. I was resisting it. I played, of course, the a lot of the Valve games as well, like Portal 2, etc. Uh, I was resisting uh Kingdom Com because I heard it's super janky, etc., and very hard to and very demanding, and um so I braved it and I and I play I'm playing it. It's cool, it's a cool game. Again, it's a game with is which is made with a lot of honesty. They they deliver, they uh yeah, there's a jank for sure. Uh it's not a perfect game, but it is it is special. You feel like there were people behind it that really wanted to make that game. It was not ordered by you know some some some uh mark corporate business mandate or something. It it really comes from from a bunch of crazy people that thought we're gonna make this crazy game. And and I I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

I I got a lot of pleasure out of the first one and the second, the second one, the beginning, the first like dozen hours are incredible because they really sort of hobble you and you get that real feeling of building yourself up. Um Yeah, that's a great that's a great list of uh games, not not too dissimilar to uh some of my tops as well, like the Divinity games, I absolutely love them. And so then just going back, I'm curious, like you know, it feels to me like you created this, you know, you worked on this series of games that just nothing else like it exists. When I played it, when I played them, I'm like, I've never played anything like this before. You know, when I got to experience Dishonored for the first time, um you know, I mean there's many games in your catalogue, but I just think about that in particular uh because it comes to mind. Like this is just absolutely blowing my mind in terms of what what I was capable of doing. Did you like always have this idea in your head about the kind of game that you would want to exist? Because it's it's not like you just contributed to like the FPS genre or something, you literally started generating whole new experiences for people that they would never otherwise gotten to experience.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Um I think I mean, first of all, I do think my games are a little derivative, uh like most games now, like it's impossible to not somehow be derivative of something. So if you ask me about Dishonored, I'll tell you. I I can't tell you the the inspirations right then. Like uh, first of all, I was not the only one. It's a culture of company, right? It's company culture that we've we've created since Arx Fatalis. And then at some point we had Harvey Smith joining, uh, who was uh the uh lead designer on Davus X. So and it's it's not an accident. We we're we're we became friends around the same the share the the sharing for the same values and the same type of games. So we we we like those games that are first person, uh but also gives you a lot more than a first-person shooter. They they they put you in a simulation, they the pace is a little different, uh, you have more tools, things are a little more ambiguous, and PCs can be approached in different different ways, the situations can be approached in different ways. So that alone was already setting us in in that direction, no matter what. But the inspirations were exactly thief. Uh, and if you look at our previous game, Dark Messiah of Mine and Magic, which was very, you know, we we wanted to nail the the first person com melee combat because it's not something back then that really existed, or at least existed in a in a such a visceral way. And uh so we want it's it's a it's a bit of both. It's Thief Meets Dark Messiah of Made Magic with a team that was very mature in in their craft for level design and verticality and world design. Um so but yeah, it is derivative in some ways. I mean, the world itself was not, we would say it's an interesting world that I don't think was ever seen. People will say it's steampunk, but it's not exactly steampunk either. Uh it's not the classic steampunk that people can point at. But yeah, we all are inspired by something. So I think the what makes it feel new here is that there was a certain level of execution that a game like Thief never could really manage, probably because they were on smaller budgets, it was older games, the games did not sell that much, so it's a bit like the Pixies for the rock bands, you know. Uh the Pixies was incredibly influential, but nobody knows them other than the other than the the in the music industry. Everybody somehow got inspired by the Pixies. Uh yet Nirvana became way more famous than them. So it's a bit the same. I think Looking Glass was incredibly instrumental to so many devs, including us, and then Dishonored, which somewhere was very inspired by Thief, was exploded compared to Thief, but you know, we have to give it what the a lot of their philosophies is is what we applied. And I think when we were younger, we we have this capacity to really absorb uh and digest things in a way that we feel them with so so strongly that then when it's time to make our own games, we you know, we're able to formulate it in a way um with even more strength in some ways, you know, all the things they could not do, we we were able to do somehow.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Um I think I think it's uh an interesting point you make there about and I don't know if this is exactly what you were saying, but I I talk to people a lot. I know for me, you know, there's this period of time, maybe between the age of like 13 and like 25, where the games, the books, the movies I was watching, they've just sort of been burnt into my retinas. And and from that age onwards, I've played many a good game, seen great movies, but I'm I'm always surprised how when I'm thinking of Crave Inspiration or Influence or Comps, I'm still going back to that catalogue. The the And it might have been it might even be a smaller uh couple of years. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah, I think it's hard to know if it's uh because back then the media was so creative. I mean, we can't talk about anything, movies, uh games, of course, and music. Was it that we were in an era where things were being discovered? So there are things that just became monuments, no matter what, and and and they are constantly being uh inspiring new generations because in a way I was inspired by the old looking glass stuff, like the underworld kind of thing, uh, underworld Ultima from Origins, etc. And then younger gamers don't know those games, so they play my games and they think, Oh wow, that's I've never seen that before. This is so awesome, and it probably infuses them. And maybe when they are developers, they'll be like, Yeah, I was inspired by these games, and without them knowing that it was actually Ultima. Uh you know, you hear the same thing in music, there will be people that say, Oh, yeah, that you know, uh that band was totally inspired by David Bowie or something. You go, Oh, really? I you know, I've never really heard David Bowie. I mean, I have, but some people, you know, some people are more like so. Yeah, but also it was it it was at the times, it's true, like uh, and it though it those were the times where we were, and then there's something you said, something about that specific age. No matter what, when you are somewhere between 8, 10, 12, 16, 18, there are the things that they hit you really, really hard in ways that um, and so that that both can be true. Yeah, there's the this this phase of your life which where you really it's formative to your to your taste forever, I think. But also there's this like looping um influence effect, right? Where like the the younger generations are are inspired by something that then they will inspire the new the the new young generation, even though it's old stuff without it without people knowing that, right? So all that can be true. Yeah, a very, very interesting ways that the the trends and the inspirations can morph and and and recycle somehow. And then it's why people say every poet is a thief somehow, because I I don't think we really come out of nowhere with anything, you know. Um we always somehow borrow and and then based on the years that we live in or what happened to us or you know, some other influential stuff, or then we of course we make it our own, but um somehow we we're just recycling stuff all the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I'm sort of curious what if you know, if you can recall what some of your earliest maybe not just gaming, but any kind of memory of engagement with a movie or art or a book or a comic where like you know, I remember like playing Final Fantasy VII, you know, and it was really many a game up until that point. I just didn't realise that a game could like say kill a main character and they not come back or and make me cry, you know. That's like a pivotal moment for me. I was like, this is something really special that I've not experienced before or felt this kind of feeling around a in interactive medium. I'm just wondering if there's anything from your childhood that you you comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, um I okay, so here is one, and there's probably a lot, but one was in um wow, and this is such a detailed and a very precise thing, which is funny. In Ultima 7, so I don't know how how old was I? Maybe maybe maybe 17 or something. In Ultima 7, there was uh there was an add-on called Forge of Virtue. Uh oh it was it no, it was Silver Seed, I think. Uh yeah, memory. Anyway, there was a moment where there were two giants and uh One of them was dead, and there was this quest where I had to resurrect the dead one because they were lovers somehow. And uh and the the the for the for the other one to and so there was this sad giant that was walking around, it was a golem, and the other only way for for him to resurrect his lover was to give it to give his heart, uh his stone heart to the to the other giant. So there was a ritual to do, like different things. I had to go left and right and do things, and at the end the last step was to kill him and take his heart. You he told me, take my heart and put it you know with with the on the other on the other character. And uh and somehow I thought this was super emotional because then the other so this one dies, the other one rises, and um and uh then I have to explain the golem what happened, and the golem is super sad, and and uh that you know this the the the the other golem died too in order to resurrect uh this golem. Uh it was a beautiful little story, and I realized how with a few pixels, because if you recall what Ultima 7 looks like, yeah, it's not that impressive compared to nowadays standards, but it's that shows you how much everything is in the head the same way in a book or theater, a play, you know. And that uh it was very, very impactful, it was such a beautiful story. And it happened that the guy who wrote it, I I I worked with him much uh later. His name is Steve Powers. Uh, I was telling him that story. I was telling him that you know, I know you worked on Ultima, but uh it's it's crazy because I I there was this little thing, I'm not sure if you know what I'm talking about, and it's oh yeah, I wrote I wrote that part. Uh so uh and now this guy is working on my game, so it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

I love that story. That's literally perfect, perfect example of that. Yeah, that thing just great, you know, because obviously I said it's it's yeah, pixels and beautiful writing and characters, and and just feeling the it's so interesting because you don't need to have like a consequence system or anything like that to feel like um invested in what has happened there, yeah, and we lose ourselves now because they are so I guess people have gone so hard on on um cranking up the the things that impress people, like graphics and animations and effects, etc.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

That I'm not saying no games deliver those emotionals moments anymore, but um I think the the the tendency is to think well let's just let's just go hard on the on the art with you know because that's what people that's what will sell and selling is one thing, but then leaving memories is another. And I think those whenever I play of course now you need a minimum to to get into the game. If it's too ugly, it's really hard to feel immersed, but because I guess our eye got um we are we have a you know we are used to we have expectations now. But I'm not le really I'm still responding more to uh stories and what actually is the underlying message more than the you know uh the the crazy level of of execution in term of art.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I'm curious then say say something like with Dishonored, where there is a sort of you know, there's depending on the actions you take and the way that you approach the game, there's gonna be there's in-game consequences, right? But how much are you really just trying to leverage the player's imagination? Like you've got those mechanics in place, but ideally, you know, you're also just getting buy-in for people that like regardless of how in-depth those those uh real-world changes are, people are kind of feeling the decision more even more so in their heart and their head than just about seeing the way that the game is changing. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah, and some of it's in their heads as well. Um, some of it is deliberate from us, some of it is more like because we framed a world that is so a detailed in a way, so we we we go beyond what what is needed uh to really make you feel like you're part of this world. You know, we're we're gonna make sure that the places are very cohesive, that uh every detail is there, like what people say between them somehow it is is a way to to to to tell that huge painting. And and players are not gonna catch them all, but they're gonna catch enough of those that they feel like this is a real place. Um, or it could be a real place anyway. So I think that already carries a lot of weight. And so, like whatever happens to them, even if it's not really related to a piece of story that we told them, but it's more like a piece of story that they told themselves, because somehow they went through the rooftop, and then being there, they witnessed two people fighting about something, and it it got into their their head, and and then they kept you know, and and then one of them died later, and now they feel oh that that was yeah, they just I think that's some of it is deliberate and some of it is just the way we we build our worlds.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

And then I'm you know, it feels like with prey and you you know maybe I've got it wrong here, but the it it feels like you took it to a whole other level in terms of um certainly how I was feeling about the you know the logs and the the the people that I wasn't gonna interact with but that I was picking up their stories, you know, the f the fact that you've got this whole roster and you know it's it's it's possible to track each one of these individuals um alongside obviously just great writing, but was that something that you were very intentional about that we were like okay how can we how can we really make people feel like every single person on this ship mattered?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yes, and again, uh it's a culture thing, it's uh it's the invisible values, right? You can't really explain it on a box, you can't really sell it to a publisher or a gamer. Uh but I gotta give the credits to to Richard Garrett on Ultima about that, right? Uh and and the and the culture that he created. Um because that same guy, Steve Powers, also was on was on Prey. And uh as me, as some other people, like Harvey Smith, who also worked at Origin, etc., he was not on Prey, but it's this a culture. All of us, we are crazy for um for that aspect that you're describing. The fact that if you again, if you go back to Ultima, even like the first Ultimas, I'm not even talking about Ultima 7 that everybody knows, but if you're talking, if you're looking at the first Ultimate, they are little little people are on schedule, uh, they have a purpose in life, they all serve something, something, you know, they have some secrets. You can find some notes about them saying something, etc. Now we went farther, I guess, with a game like Prey. Um, but I love that. The team loved that. So we had we did not, we just had to remind the team, guys. Remember, it's one of those games, right? So feel free, have fun. Like make it make it as real as possible. Let's let's go let's go crazy on on the existence of the like we we counted how many people were on board of the station. We were around, like you know, we made estimation. We said, well, it should be about 500 people, but like uh some of them died because one of the wings totally detached, and so like we don't have to worry about them, so therefore we still have that amount. So let's put all the names in the roster, and then now we we all the bodies are somewhere, or if they're not, there's still a logic, why they're not, etc. And uh yeah, and people people love making that, and I think some players love again because it's it grounds the entire experience, killing people, killing monsters, etc. is meaningless if there's no uh if there's not a frame for it, it doesn't if there's not a painting behind it that gives meaning to all of that. And um yeah, and it's a culture, it's a culture, yeah. Um yeah, from the get-go.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

And what's I don't know, I wonder if you could speak more to that. Like, and and is this is the kind of I sort of use this phrase too much, but the North Star that you have now the same as what you had with your earliest projects? And is it around like, oh, we want to just like great story, great characters, or player freedom and approach things in a multitude of ways, or maybe it's a whole mix of things, but often I I think for a project I'm just thinking about there's this one thing that I want to be make sure is coming through. I'm I'm curious what what that is for you and how that's evolved over time.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah, and the values are always the same. I think they express in different ways based on the game and based on the genre. But I do believe, for example, Larian has very similar values to uh Warfi and Arcane in the sense that I'm pretty sure they were big fans of Ultima as well. It's funny because it's like those conversations about you know bands or whatever, you know, uh like Muse and Radiohead were both fans of the same artist that inspired them, right? So um so it's a bit the same here, and if you look at our games, for example, they yes, there's always a layer of simulation. We don't like to cheat the player. Um so everything is consistent. If there is the the rules, we don't change the rules, right? So if we tell you this works this way, it always will work this way, we'll give you all these tools. Uh, we don't when I when I what I mean by we don't cheat the player is that in the middle of an important moment where you could kill the villain, we're not gonna take your hands away, put some cinematic, and then you know you wake up without without the the uh the possibility to if if it happens, it's it was fair. You don't want the player to feel something was unfair here. Like I I got fooled, right? Uh so we never do that. Um yes, the world is consistent, um and there are consequences for your you know, there are choices and there are multiple ways to do things, there are choices, etc. So we we uh it we always have the same the same kind of values somehow. And some games we push more than these values than some others, but it's you yeah, you can you can recognize games that are that have these values because it doesn't it's not really attached to the to the genre or to the technology or to anything uh else than what we want you to feel. We want you to feel like you're going somewhere that you are cheating the game because you you you realize you could do this if if you observe, and then I yes, I use the system to my advantage, and now I could go somewhere I was not supposed to. And did they plan for it? And at some point you forget that they're designers because you are actually maybe in the uh in that back room somewhere, and you feel like you just entered the secret space that nobody really has been before because you are not supposed to be there, and like what if they uh catch you, you know? So that that feeling of transgression from the player's side, I think is huge, and and this is a consequence of all the things I said before. It got away with something, you know, the player got away with something, and and that to me is something that I don't think as a gamer I really I really analyzed it. I felt it though.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

And I spent my career putting together systems and enforcing those rules and finding people that love those rules too, like Christophe Carrier, who's been with me for 30 years, uh Julien Roby, who was with me, you know, he's still with me now, he's he's uh my CEO at Wolfi. Um, everybody that I've worked with, there's a core. Uh everybody likes those games for for one, you know, it's an important thing for us. But then there's a core of priests that keep those values no matter what happens, they will always live and die by those by those rules. Because you can't you can't betray those rules if you want that kind of game. And it's hard to make those games because uh, you know, I was having this conversation with uh uh one of my writers right now, narrative designer uh Lucas, and uh he's uh he's he's suffering because it's very hard to tell. We cannot use the same tricks that you do in a movie of from Hollywood. You can't we cannot do that, you know, because we have this consistency in the systems, and so it's just harder to write stories for our kind of games. We uh the the writers have to have to go through the pain of in our game you can kill any character. And and that alone is like now you have to plan for all the you know, you can't assume that we're gonna make this great moment because we know that this character isn't is alive. You know, you can't. I mean we in some ways we can sometimes, like when I say we don't cheat, if we cheat, we do it very, very elegantly with the player, so that if we want to protect the character by by any mean, we we try to put things like you know, Bioshock put the glass in the glass, you know, and it it's it's a little obvious, but but but again, they don't cheat, they do that, right? They it's it's like is there what you say, well, if there was a way for you to go on the other side of this glass, then you would be able to attack that character. So I think you know that's the kind of thing that we do sometimes, but we can't do that all the time. So there are moments where and and you know, Scaream has the same problem, and it's just hard to make those games with those rules compared to some other games that just make everybody invincible, and there we go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

But then I mean, I I assume once you crack that and you're working within those constraints, though, as we have seen with your previous games, that then sort of becomes the mother of invention, right? Because suddenly these beautiful like stories and characters and scenarios are unfolding within that massive constraint.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yes, yes, I agree. Yes, it's a it's a constraint that once everybody embraces it, it hurts, it sucks for everybody, including me. Like there's always a moment where fuck, alright, let's let's go around this thing, then let's let's do it with it, you know. But it's yeah, it's a commitment, it's uh it's uh it's a culture, yeah, it's a company culture. But but it does bring things that other games can't do simply because of that aspect. I I think there's a there's um and and players it's so satisfying to players when they manage to do something a little forbidden like that.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Um and then I'm sort of curious because because obviously like with the the growth of of Arcane, like how that you know we talked about that trifactor at the start of the the interview, um, where historically you've you've you know played a part in trying to manage and balance those those three things and like with great success comes great responsibility, right? Is there times um in the past where you feel like you've just maybe drifted too far away from whatever that central culture is, or do you you feel like you've always been able to hold that point and and kind of ride the waves that that come with it?

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Um I think we've been super lucky in in many ways from the very first game, Arcs Vitalis, which was totally uncompromised. Um now it was janky, it did not sell much, but people still talk about it today, and that has value. Um and then Dark Messiah. Dark Messiah was a bit of a of a compromise because we never intended to make a minor magic game. Not that I have anything against that franchise, but it's not it's not how we saw that game. Um but we were constrained, we had we had to, otherwise we're gonna go under. So we still made the best we could with with the franchise, and it pissed off the fans because it was not really a magic game so much. Um, but we stayed true to our type of design philosophy, and again, we had a lot of people loving it, and it it left a mark somehow in the in the video game industry with you know for for the melee, I guess, or for other stuff. Um so yeah, I think we've we've never really lost ourselves. Um there are there are things we haven't we've lost money for sure, but but we haven't lost our our passion or integrity in in any way, I believe. Uh you know, I left in 2017 after after Prey, so that was that was the last game that I directed. And Dishonored was uh Dishonored one was Harvey and I, and Dishonored 2 was Harvey. Um yeah, I I feel I feel we managed. I mean, if anything, the business was on the lower end of the business always got the lower end of the stick. But it had the lower end of the stick for a while until it paid off for us because that's also what brought Bethesda. That's also you know that that I mean it it gave us a lot, it gave us a lot in return. But yeah, we we I think our philosophies has always been and it still is is we want them we want to make the best thing we can and if it's fair money will money will will find its way to us. And and usually it does, it does enough anyway. Um we we're we don't think first money and then how we can make money, you know. That's why I have an aversion for game as a service, for uh microtransactions or anything that trying to trying to milk people. It's just I because I feel it. I I would feel it as a gamer, I hate it. Yeah uh and I don't want to do that to our gamers. Um now, you know, some games are designed for that. In like I guess the first game as a service, I don't know which one it was, but it was probably perfect for that kind of game, and and it was probably a creative person that came with uh came up with it. But then of course, business people try to try trying to business, they they they do what they do, which is like, oh that that made a lot of money, do more of that. And that's that's how we kill an industry, I think.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

And then I'm interested in what was going on for you between 2017 and then the decision to you know sort of found WarFi Studios. I I don't know how long of a gap that was just in terms of you know, were you like, you know, I just need to step back and just like not think about video games for a little bit, or if you had always been iterating on what the next thing was gonna be for you and recalibrating and yeah, I think things go so fast and so slow at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

So by slow I mean it takes years to make a game, you're giving a chunk of your life to to a game. Um at least three years, sometimes five. And um and at the same time the industry moves at the speed of light, and it's hard to catch up with, and you at some point you wonder what's your relevance, uh, if that is still what you want to do, because it's so much um I mean it's a privilege to make game, of course, but it also comes with a lot of pain, a lot of a lot of um stress, a lot of you know, you expose yourself in ways that are that are um complicated uh for obvious reasons. So I think after after Prey, I really felt I didn't even know if I still wanted to make games because it's so hard to make. Um and I don't want to make games just for the sake of it. I if I'm gonna make a game, I'm gonna commit to making it something really, really good and you know, or something that I'm proud of anyway. Otherwise I'll feel bad about it. Um that's just me. So yes, I uh I moved away for a while. There was no other reason than I was frankly uh um I felt like the arc of Arcane Studios were was uh I had seen it the way the way I frankly one of the best versions of what could happen. So then what was I gonna do uh other than that? Right. So I I wanted a big change and so so I took that break. Of course, very quickly, uh my my friend and former Arcane Executive producer Julien Roby said man we gotta we gotta do that again and I said yeah maybe but uh not not with big games I I no not those not those big AAA games it's too too too long too painful too much at stake too hard to sign deals too stressful you gotta pay a army of people you know and uh yeah and so we we agreed to make something really tiny and so we uh now we we were wrong uh that part we didn't know but at least we tried we tried to make something tiny and we said we we thought yeah it's gonna be 2D uh maybe four or five people we take the the the the people we really like like Etienne Aubert who was a fantastic animator that we've worked with forever and uh that's it yeah we we we keep it tiny and then of course it bloated because I think you can you kind of get back to your habits and you you you know the way people work most of all if you work with the same people uh we we're gonna fall back into our own habits so then we did Weird West which was supposed to be tiny but it was not tiny it was actually not in 2D it was in 3D and then it ended up being uh late and bigger than we thought in millions of dollars and uh it was still a great experience but it was kind of like us springing back to what we know how to do and uh but it was like a half step we're not like fully and now of course we're working on a on a big game again um I don't know what to tell you I think that's that's interesting it's almost like we can't that one can't change their natural you know uh drive for a certain type of of of game it sounds like and and also publishers wanted that from us the gamers wanted that from us we kind of wanted that for ourselves it it's just that uh I think we needed that break that uh that other experiment which kind of confirmed yeah I guess we we we just it's as much as I admire those indie games like as I told you I'm playing a lot of indie games actually I'm every time I'm in awe but I just don't know how to do that I uh and it's just not what I do you know I I always need to fall back into those more complex games not that their games are not complex but yeah whatever when you're when you're sort of pushing for an idea or or something you want to pull off do you is there anything that you've ever really had to fight for in a particular game uh where or again it sounds like no well yeah to the team investors the people publishers yeah all the time all the time um sometimes it's the team uh but but sometimes the publishers like I remember so Ars Fetalis was we were totally free to do whatever we want we were lucky that the publisher that signed us was and this is the value of passion because back then we were almost we we had one year uh in front of us to to make a demo and try to find a publisher and we're lucky that nobody wanted to sign us except at the very last minute uh this guy from Germany a company called Fish Tank there was he he was just he had he liked the same kind of games that I liked so he was oh my god this is what I want perfect it's yeah I don't know if it's gonna work commercially but who cares? So they uh so he was supportive from A to to Z. But after that when we worked with Ubisoft it was very painful I'll tell you why uh we uh believe it or not stealth wasn't stealth was not a thing back then it was a thing a little bit you know people had had see had experienced it with thief that did not work so uh it was not publishers had a bad opinion of thief and then it it had been experienced as well with um uh metal guest solid right um but metal guest solid was pretty much it was really a thing whereas Dark Messiah the publisher was not quite getting it like why do you want to put stealth in there? I don't see it I don't understand it uh can't you just you know you go into a room people detect you immediately it's like because you're in a volume intertwinal volume and then there's combat because we like that we we we understand that our gamers will understand that but the stealth thing and you go around and like you know it's not fun there's no combat there's nothing so that was a fight that was a fight um the first person melee combat on itself was a fight too we we uh because I had most of the team was naive enough to believe me but people outside of the team they were always discouraging me to do it. They were thinking man it's it's something with the FOV it's not gonna work you can't see or this you don't you don't can't you can't gauge a distance all the all the reasons they would they would give me for why I should stop even trying and like the way was to go third person. And sometimes I'm wrong you know sometimes I will push for something like crazy and and and it doesn't work. So but the problem is that you never know when when you're wrong and when when you're right you just know that you're right enough times that it worked out somehow but when you're wrong you're wrong you know yes you wish you wish you would know there was something that's like you know you know you're insisting this time but but and sometimes you insist and you're right but this time you insist and you're wrong like I can't know.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

I feel like people like like to be around someone unless you take it too far people doing it's good to be around someone who's insisting because at least you can sort of get on on the bandwagon and then you find out later whether it's actually you know the worst thing you want to be around is an indecisive nature. You know that's something I'm often having a combat and in a weird way I became more and more indecisive with time and I think it's maturity because um I think after I worked with Harvey Smith who was the same as I was he was used to be the boss on board I want this nothing else it would and and nobody would really dare saying something and then we worked together and now we we've there's two of us now and so we both learn to um put a little bit of buffer between our our certainty and and our and and then the execution of it right so if if I was saying something that Harvey would not agree with he would be like hmm well let's uh let's you know if if we're in a meeting or something so let's let's take this offline and we'll we'll talk about it and then we would talk about it together and sometimes it would you know it would it would be uh a little heated let's say even though we we're fantastic friends is definitely one of my best friends but uh and then we would agree on something uh usually it would be better than my initial idea or than his and and you know and it was a good process at the end which was to put uh lower a little bit the certainty about what we think but the problem with that of course is then you become a little more indecisive so then people yeah you you're a little more wishy-washy about things and and uh some of it must be age as well you know I'm 55 I'm not uh I I I'm I know better now that sometimes I'm wrong whereas when I was in my 30s I was just like I can't be wrong you know yeah I think you're more arrogant when you're younger and that gives you that that velocity that that that power that either you take everybody to the victory or or or to or to the or to to the death to their death but either way you you you know you go somewhere and uh you're right yeah people like that people like the we're we're getting somewhere you know um we might all die but we're we're on the move but at least yeah at least we're not gonna be just paralyzed uh with people like that and now I'm like yeah I I'm a little more uh uh conce how do you say uh you know um flexible I guess not for everything yeah my my team will probably say I'm still an asshole but I don't know and so and then did that get easier say with Dishonored and Prey when you're pushing for something or again it's so interesting you talk about you know that stealth mechanics just wasn't it was a thing but it was hard for people to comprehend was there stuff in those games that you were like no this this is gonna work even though there's no evidence that it will that you got pushback from yeah it's it's a bit of a constant thing but um sometimes I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

I mean I've been wrong for you know I wanted to correct the note of the procedural content for uh during uh we had West and I was a fail it was a fail we just couldn't pull it off so halfway we we steered the boat the other way and we said all right let's let's manually author all the stories etc and it ended up being a better game that if we had kept trying to make it work procedurally but it's not as a good game as if we had taken the decisions from the get-go however usually when we start a new game I'd like I'd like to push something that I've never pushed before so it was you know it's just the artist uh need you know I I can't just do something in autopilot without any risk it I of course I'm always gonna try something a little crazy that that's at that at first people are gonna say oh are you sure that doesn't sound like a good idea I kind of like that in a way you know oh yeah you don't well I'm gonna prove you and so but anyway sometimes I'm wrong yeah I was wrong with with this one uh and sometimes also it's not that I'm wrong or right sometimes it's that I hang on to something which eventually becomes something good but not the way I thought right uh and and that's another strange phenomenon where either it's because other members of the team managed to take my dumb idea making it good so that's a possibility and so they go like man without without me the the game was fucked and uh maybe maybe they're right you know uh but it's uh it's our system in either way you know I've been working with a lot of the same people for many years and we have this weird uh confrontational uh creative style creative process you know where we put things together in a in an in a in a in a soup let's say and uh some some of the ingredients immediately you can feel like yeah this is gonna be good some of them you feel like Raf maybe you should kill this one and then nah I want to keep it and then eventually it becomes something either because I was right either because you know somehow it was they made it cool. It doesn't matter the the the point is it works out at the end. And and also it it often leads to things that are unprobable things that if things were thought from the get go with everybody agreeing it probably would not be that it probably would be you know more predictable or something. So whereas and it's the same in storytelling when you when you really hang on to some things that probably won't work but then somehow you make them work at the end it feels it feels like they were deliberate from the get-go but like in an incredibly beautiful way to super weirdly twisted where it's like it's it's more that it was a wrestle all along that eventually we got lucky that we fell on the feet. And yeah I think I think we probably have some of those examples in every game. I mean I don't I don't necessarily know what's a good example of that in Prey for example but and prey Prey was not too I would say it was was um it was not too confrontational of the game I think uh prey was done between me and Ricardo Bear mostly for the design uh we were working hand in hand um same you know same great guy same same culture comes from Deus Ex a long time ago etc so we understood it each other very very well um but just so for example I think in prey a good example is that that that weird beginning right that beginning where you break that glass you go through that lab etc that was shoehorned uh there were it was very hard to make to build a story around it like I really wanted that moment but there was no reason to have that moment in our stories at the time but I knew that moment would be cool and so and then when you play the game everything feels natural and it'll make sense and it's all great etc and even though like if you really dig and dig and dig into the story it still makes sense to the all the all the details of like why and how does it exactly work on your brain and like they were resetting it every you know big but it's not like that story was that and then we said oh therefore wouldn't it be cool to have a moment where you escape your apartment and you know because everything makes sense no it was not like that it was like we we have to accept you know we have to set up all the reasons why we want the player to do that to have that moment and that was probably a pain in the ass for the team and for the for for for everybody because it it took a while for for it to actually make sense so worth it I mean I absolutely adore that opening and the credit sequence as well the title sequence is just phenomenal in that game.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

I can't remember the title sequence what was it sorry is that's is that when the you you're you're going it's the um I hope I'm not messing up you you're getting in the helicopter and it's kind of like the the oh the the yeah the beginning yeah I thought you meant like the incredible the buildings no no sorry yeah yeah the opening opening credits yeah yeah um I was kind of like wait was that a David Fincher movie um and and again I mean just so we're covering it and then we can move on but again you you talked about that thing of like the thing say well this is the thing I want to try and I'm gonna sort of push for this was there anything again as a sort of an all star for Dishonored from the earliest point you're like no this is something that I want to see exist and I have no idea how it's gonna work and people are gonna think I'm crazy for even trying it you know in the specific case of Dishonored I mean it would there's a lot of those things that we forget I think I mean it's specifically me I'm not I don't have a great memory of of um of details or like all the iterations of the game or I frankly don't even remember what which ideas were mine which idea were were Harvey's or or Ricardo's or or or Christophe Carrier or whoever it's it's uh at some point it becomes a blur of people building on each other's ideas for you know modifying it and then remodifying it the other way and repurposing another one that was killed etc so that eventually it becomes like a total blur.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

So I'm not sure in the case of Dishonored if there is an example of that there probably are it's just that it doesn't come to mind.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

Yeah yeah and then moving forward and again this is the bit like I don't know I always assume there's basically nothing that you can talk about what you're what you're doing for your next game but I guess what I am curious about which maybe you can talk about is like when you're setting up uh you know with Wolf eye studios are you thinking especially with everything that's going on now the kind of the instability and everything you're seeing happening in the industry are you just thinking squarely on the next game or are you thinking like longer term about how can we build something that's sustainable and can keep people employed and and and grow and and do this right in such a volatile time for the industry um so from a project standpoint it's very hard for me to project myself beyond whatever I'm working now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

I think it's like a relationship you know it it it would be hard to to predict what's gonna happen five years from now like am I gonna change girlfriend you know it doesn't make sense so like you're you're invested and uh that's the love of your of your life at the at the time that's kind of like where I am right now it's uh this game is the love of my life I don't know exactly what I'll be doing after uh it's uh it's taking all my all my CPU and uh all I can say is that yes there is some sort of strategy in a sense of we you know we're working with our our tools the current engine we're working with all the the the the there is a specific format the structure um and it it would make sense I think I think I think it's it's fair to say that it would make sense to to keep that format and and what whether or not it's in the same world it's in the same um you know it's a it's a sequel or not or whatever that doesn't really matter. I I think I think we when we develop the tools and all the things so that we can build this these worlds and and offer that type of game to players it makes sense to stay in that in that paradigm I think that's probably safe to say that you know we're not we're not gonna do another genre or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

And is there anything you can speak to about what you've got to come specifically. No I've seen this dot on my on my forehead I think there's a there's a sniper like through the window there so if I say anything I might be shot that's fair enough that's usually that that's usually the uh that's usually the question that gets the quickest shortest answer which is fair enough as well I mean as you as you probably picked up you know I'm really what I'm interested in is the the lineage that leads someone to you know the the the point that they're currently at um you know and everything that's come before but it's really cool to hear that it's it's the love of your life that that alone is uh enough information to sort of keep me excited about things to come yes I think it's fair to say and uh not you know the sniper probably won't shoot me if I say that um people who who've loved our previous games will will will find will find themselves at home. Great well I've really enjoyed this conversation it was one I've wanted to have for a very long time and I try not to gush too much but absolutely adore your games and pray I think specifically holds a really special place in my heart. For someone who is I love video games but I'm not like great at them that's a game that I'm able to play on like the hardest difficulty absolutely fudge my way through it in such a beautiful beautiful way that I never feel frustrated. It feels so beautifully balanced um and like I said the the immersion that comes from how um connected I feel with the stories that I'm following and also finally the greatest bathrooms I think I've ever seen in a video game. So I feel very proud very proud of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Well thank you so much I I um I guess when we when we create these things it's it's to give back to to people what somehow we felt when when we've when we've played a game like that. So it's it's an honor to for for us to to do that to other people. We can't feel that with our own games of course but uh but we know the feeling because we've felt it from other games so it's it's the it's it's our um in a way it's our burden because it's hard it's a g it's you know it's uh it's it's our mission but it's also an honor it's also um a privilege to be able to to bring that to people