E25: Bringing Campaigns to an End W/Nate and Chris Pohl
In today's session I'm joined by my close friends Nate and Chris as we discuss how to bring games to a successful conclusion. In Tricks of the Trade we give you some ideas of endings that you could plan for in your own campaigns.
Keywords: dnd, D&D, dnd podcast, dungeons and dragons, podcast, ttrpg, rpg, roleplaying, roleplaying game, DM, dungeon master, game master, dnd ideas,
Podcast Art by Kyle Baerlocher
Intro music by 33nano from
Outro music by GabrielDouglas from Pixabay
Support the showHello, CYC lids and welcome to the Dungeons dragons and psychology podcast. I am your host, Robert Walker. And today I'm joined by two of my very best friends, longtime gaming buddies. First we have Chris poll. He's sitting here in the studio with me today. Chris, welcome to the show for the first time.
Chris:Thank you very much, Rob.
Robert:And we also have his brother. Nate poll. You've heard him before. You've probably argued and disagreed with him as you've listened to previous episodes. But welcome back to the show, Nate,
Nate:thank you for having me back.
Robert:Awesome. Very excited to have you guys here. I haven't been able to have Chris here in person for a very long time. So this is an exciting episode for me. And the three of us have been in a lot of games together with just the three of us. So this is kind of like. It's very nostalgic for me to have the two of them sitting around talking about D and D together. And I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. What we're gonna be talking about today is bringing your campaigns or your stories to a successful conclusion, having a very good and natural end to a story, because a lot of times when you play D and D there's this idea that the story can go on forever, but something that can be really rewarding to a story is having a. Sometimes emotional, sometimes exciting, but having an end point where the story sort of wraps up and it feels like the mission has been accomplished. So let's just go ahead and chatter chatter about that. What are your guys' experiences with games that have either not come to a complete end or in contrast games that have come to a successful complet?
Nate:I think. Anytime you have that sort of bow on the end of the game. I, I think it lends something to the game that you don't get when it just sort of Peters off. No matter how good the game is, it doesn't matter if it just sort of whimper its way into death. Something, something exciting going out with a bang, whatever that ends up being, I think is far more rewarding from its storytelling perspective than just kind of dribbling off into nothing.
Chris:Well, and from my perspective, those are always the, the games that I remember the best that I, I referenced back to. It's the ones that have had this, this final scene to it. As you said, Rob, either it's exciting, exhilarating, sad, emotional, all those things can be part of that. But to have that ending moment to it. Really adds something to the game as a whole. Cause it like, like you said, it really does tie it up into a bow.
Nate:I mean, one of the things with storytelling and, and you go into this pretty deep, both in psychology and in theater, which is sort of one of the older forms of storytelling. That one of the goals with storytelling is to sort of experience the journey that the story takes and then to find the moment of catharsis at the end of the story. And so I think it can be fun to play a D and D game that doesn't sort of hit that. Conclusion point, but it's always going to be lacking when compared to a game that does have that complete story arc, where you find the moment of catharsis at the end of it, that's what really gives you the perspective to look back and kind of really enjoy the whole arc that the story took.
Robert:And I, I like to compare a lot of my stories in my campaign building to, to cinema or to other forms of media. And it really does. I mean, a movie with a terrible ending. Ruins the whole movie mm-hmm and I think role playing should be thought of in the same way, if you want it to wrap up, if you want it to have that, that memorable thing that carries you forward and says, that was a really great game. So much of that is tied up in, how did it end? How did it come to a conclusion? Because ultimately we're all looking for what is the character journey? You know, we're starting very naive, very. Low level characters. We want to see them grow. We want to see them experience, but we also want to know how does their story end or at least how does this piece of their story end? And so I think that's a really important part.
Chris:well, and I
Nate:I think too, that's a very good point that just because it's the end of this part of the story doesn't mean you can't come back to it later and maybe experience a different part of their story, but to, but to be able to put that sort of dot on the eye or cross on the T and, and sort of wrap up the complete arc of that story, I think really lends itself to good storytelling.
Robert:Mm-hmm
Chris:One, one of the things I'd wanna point out is like, when you look at the end and you look at the beginning, those two aren't necessarily tied together. Um, just remembering all the games that we have had, you know, come to a, like kind of a final conclusion there. The beginning of the game started nowhere near that. And even, you know, from that, that, you know, level one level, two level, three perspective, you're going into this game. You have no idea where it's going to go. You have ideas of what you want to do with your character at that point. But to have this. End moment. You keep mentioning this arc of the character, the story arc, this growth of the story itself. And I think that's a, a really important part to have is that you, you can't plan that from the start is it is a, a natural growth of both the players, as well as the DM in that process to make this new story.
Nate:And isn't that, isn't that the very key to collaborative storytelling that the DM may have an idea where he wants it to end. and maybe has some sort of notion of how you're gonna get there. But as soon as you get the players in the room, sometimes that doesn't stick. Like
Robert:like some,
Chris:Sometimes
Nate:go off the rails and sometimes Oaks can be very fun stories, too. But being able to look at where you started and where you sort of ended up, I think, I think that growth both in sort of numerical character kind of language, but also in terms even more especially of the, the growth of the character as an individual.
Chris:Right.
Robert:So when I write a campaign very often, I build backwards and I mentioned this in the, in the podcast before I talk about in my book. But I do like to look at how do I want this story to end? If not necessarily this specifics, at least. What's the feeling I want this story to end with. Um, one of the games that the three of us played together in, uh, was we call it the El game. Um, but it was essentially a story of two brothers who were, trying to save the Elvin people. And I knew at the end of that story, I wanted there to be a very big sacrifice that they were going to have to make be it, their life, be it, their livelihood, something that they were going to have to give up all that they had earned for themselves for the betterment of their society. And part of the collaborative storytelling about that was making the choices that you two made as players to make it so that they were the right kind of characters that would be willing to make that sacrifice. So even though I had an. I didn't know exactly what that idea was going to look like until I knew what your characters were like and what would be the right sacrifice for them to make.
Nate:I think that's a very good point. I, I think games where you play very selfish characters can be fun in a very short term kind of way. But the truth is that when you have characters that are kind of insanely selfish, um, that gets old and, and honestly, I guess kind of boring pretty quick, uh, especially for everybody else at the table. But even as the one playing the character, like it, it's just repetition of the same one note. And that doesn't make a very good song.
Chris:I mean, no matter what kind of character you make at the core, it's still the same character. You can be a barred, you can be a fighter, you can be a barbarian. You can be,
Nate:And if selfishness is your key, then it's gonna remain your key.
Robert:Mm-hmm
Chris:That is your driving force and any character that is solely based on selfishness.
Robert:is.
Chris:At the end of the day, honestly, the same character.
Nate:Mm-hmm
Robert:So how important do you guys think the, you know, the concept of the hero's journey is to the idea of bringing a story to a successful or a satisfactory conclusion?
Nate:I think it becomes immensely easier when you have characters who. are willing to follow that, journey, that sort of arc. and I think that really what it, what it boils down to is creating characters who care about something outside of themselves.
Chris:Mm mm-hmm
Nate:because if you have something that you care about as a character that deeply that you are willing to make deep personal sacrifices for. From a purely mechanical sort of perspective, it gives the DM a way to sort of, um, leverage the players onto a storyline that is going to follow, some sort of a cohesive arc, but way more importantly, it gives you as the player, something to latch onto as your character. And it gives you a motivating force.
Robert:that.
Nate:Much more than just seeing bigger numbers on a piece of paper. Yeah.
Robert:I think that's a very good point. So one thing that the two of you have done really well in the games that I've run for you, and there's been a few of them, is whenever we start a game, you sort of go into it with the idea of we're gonna start and finish this game. But you also start the game with ties to one another that make the collaborative storytelling process so much easier. And I think getting to that conclusion of the game so much easier because you're always on the same page you're working towards relatively. Similar goals or at least you support each other enough in the goals that you're each trying to accomplish, that there's not this running wild and doing your own thing.
Chris:Well, and, and part of that's cuz I mean, literally we are brothers so I've, I mean, I've had to deal with this guy's crap. How many times? Yeah. That's. And the reverse but you know, at the end of the day, it's, you can have that with people that are brothers or siblings or not, or just friends or people that aren't even necessarily know each other that well, it's, it's this idea that you've already talked about, Rob, of being able to give and take. Within the character's wants and needs mm-hmm and, and that's where, having someone who's willing to do that in a character is critical to being able to get it beyond just a, whimper into the night versus having a final conclusion.
Nate:How many of the best stories in books in movies in all sorts of storytelling forms? The best moments are the ones where somebody makes a huge sacrifice. It it's, Gandolph holding off the bow rock. Yeah. It's a Dumble door sacrificing himself, for, whatever the hell the artifact was to kill Voldemort. I mean, these are the moments that create great stories because the character is so invested in what they are doing, that you. as, the audience member become deeply invested and their sacrifice moves you, how much more than will it move you as a player to be the one making the sacrifice?
Robert:I think you said it really well, Nate, one time in a previous podcast, you said sometimes that there are those moments. Where your character's actions can even surprise you as a player. And those are the kind of moments I think you're talking about, especially is when, when it comes time for that, you know, do or die moment to be able to make the choice. That is the sacrifice that maybe you weren't ready to make, but you knew it had to be done.
Nate:And, and sometimes as, as the player of the character, maybe you're not ready for the story to be over yet, but when it, it truly what it comes down to, I, I think both both of this character and, and in real life is that it's a question.
Robert:of
Nate:what are you willing to sacrifice and what is worth your life?
Robert:Yeah.
Nate:and I think there are certainly plenty of things out there that I would consider worth my life. Um, and, and that's also true for every character I play what I will say in that, in terms of tying characters together, I think it's especially easy for us because we are brothers, but. Setting up characters where you are willing to make that kind of sacrifice for the other players at the table. For the other characters at the table creates bonds between those characters and between those players that can really overcome a lot of hurdles and, and the first person to make that move. Sets the tone for everything else that happens in the game, because the truth is that watching somebody willingly make a sacrifice for you is an incredibly moving experience. Like you feel a sort of a gratitude for that person that cannot help, but carry even outside of the table.
Robert:Mm-hmm
Chris:Yeah. That is very true.
Robert:And I think that can even be done in, in small ways early on in the game. You don't have to get all the way to the conclusion to see such a thing, but even simple things like. You know, being able to say, Hey, this piece of loop would be really important to that character. Even though if we give it to them, it means the rest of us, aren't going to get that equal share who cares make that sacrifice. Let the story go on. Let that character have what it is. They need to make the party as a whole more successful.
Chris:Well, and it's, it's that this idea of. Everyone gets an equal share and on the whole, after multiple, you know, sessions that share will equal out over time. But yet in this moment, in this minute, yet you may not get the piece that you want. You may not get quote unquote, your fair share. But the fact is, is that you do create. Honestly, a more powerful party. Mm-hmm And through that, you, yourself, as a character can become more powerful when you have those that are more powerful around you as well. Mm-hmm
Nate:And even well past any sort of numbers on a character sheet, a party is going to be way more powerful when they are cohesive. Yeah. And you build cohesion through those small acts of sacrifice.
Robert:And
Chris:it's, it's this idea of cohesion, this idea of a party that is willing to honestly go to bat for each other, that, you know, when we get to this end game moment, end game scene, that you can really have these, these extraordinary moments of either sacrifice or triumph mm-hmm or, you know, take your pick
Nate:because to get to that sort of a, uh, a finishing conclusion takes the cooperation of everybody at the table.
Robert:Yeah, it really does. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, it's DM included. Um, Obviously, they might have a story in mind, but the really important thing to remember is it is collaborative storytelling. Their story is never going to be great unless they allow their, their concept to be altered by the choices of the players at the table. And you're never gonna come to a satisfactory conclusion. If you don't take into account. What the conclusion should look like for the individual players that are playing at your table.
Chris:Well, and it's this interesting idea that the story is one person's and it never is mm-hmm And, and when you have a, a selfish player or honestly, a selfish DM, that really speaks in the story itself because it stilted because you don't have this player cohesion, you don't have this. Story cohesion. Um, you know, I've always kind of viewed the, the DM as the narrator of the story. They do set the world. They do, you know, help with understanding of choices and things like that and, and set consequences as well. But the fact is, that the world and The party and their movement through the world is a story. And you all really play into that. And when one person or another person doesn't do that. That's when people become disinterested and it just Peters out.
Robert:mm-hmm so I do, have to ask you guys because. The three of us in particular, I know we've had enough stories that have come to pretty epic and, and satisfactory conclusions that this is something that we can look back on and say like, oh yeah, those are definitely the best games. Can you identify or think of any mistakes that are made along some of the games that have fallen apart that made it so that you couldn't get to that conclusion? Is there anything that really stands out as this is really where things go off the rails and keep that from happen?
Chris:When you try to prolong a story beyond its.
Robert:end day.
Chris:And, and, and there's been a couple of games that we've tried that. Okay. Um, uh, time of troubles game, we came to a conclusion, right? Yeah. And it was a great conclusion. And then we said, well, we want more, right? Because our character is powerful. We would love to do more. And we tried and it just fell flat.
Robert:That just comes into the idea that sometime or most. Times the isn't as good as the original
Nate:there's a lot of truth to that. What I will say the time of troubles game, I actually think we did come back to it once successfully. Yeah. It's when we tried to dip back into that. Well, the third time that I
Chris:Okay. That's fair. Yeah. It, it
Nate:sort of had lost a little bit of its magic. The example I was actually thinking of was the sequel. That we tried to put together to the elf game yes. With the offspring of those characters, because they died at the end of that game, sort of made that ultimate sacrifice. I think one of the things that we ran into with that sort of sequel game was that remembering those old characters. So keenly, I think everybody involved in that came to it with maybe a few too many. Preconceived notions of what that story was gonna be. And when those ideas failed to mash up
Robert:sure.
Nate:sort of as well as maybe they could have, um, I think that's where it kind of lost some of that cohesion, too many people pulling in too many different directions.
Robert:So on that note then do you think it is probably better. or you're probably more likely to have a successful conclusion to a story. If it's a fresh and new story, it's not something that you have any sort of preconceived ideas about.
Nate:I'm not gonna say that one is impossible because certainly you can come up with fresh ideas and sometimes those don't work either. Yeah. Um, I do think that there. Is some inherent difficulties to coming back to an already told story and trying to get something new out of it. I, I think there are some very specific challenges to that, but I also think that maybe experiment with it in your groups. I mean, Who, who knows what you guys will find works best? I think that there are some people who very successfully keep coming, uh, back to the same sorts of stories and, and do manage to sort of prolong that. I just don't know that it has been my experience, that that is the easiest
Chris:Well, and one of the things that we can add on to that is the duration of time between when one story ends and the other begins is like you were saying, it's so fresh in your minds. It's sometimes get a little, you know, little separation there.
Nate:Yeah. Well, yeah, waiting a little bit longer maybe before coming back to that might have changed the outcome true. Or maybe not. I mean, it's, it's hard to predict, but
Chris:well, and that's when you get to these conclusions.
Nate:that
Chris:They do tie the story up in a bow and it's sometimes hard to reopen that.
Robert:Yeah.
Chris:Sometimes it's, it, it can't be done. And you know, maybe sometimes, you know, giving it some time will work, sometimes it doesn't
Nate:mm-hmm Yeah, absolutely. And, I don't think there's anything wrong with that because there's plenty more stories to be told. There's plenty, more characters to create. Um, and, and being able to look back on that with such fondness, I think is a powerful part of why I continue playing D and D I mean, that's, that's one of the things that keeps bringing me back to the table.
Chris:Yeah.
Robert:Yeah. I'll absolutely agree with that. I think it is. You know, there's just those golden moments that really stand out in your mind, as, you know, you can look back and them and say, this is why I play the game. You know, whether it's, a ridiculous NPC that causes the entire party to burst and laughter and then they just have like a whole session of. You know, telling jokes around the table and just laughs with your friends, or it's like a piece like we're talking here of a story that comes to a great conclusion and you feel like I got to live this life and see it through to its conclusion. And now I've got that piece of memory forever implanted of how beautiful it was,
Chris:so I got a question for both of you, how many stories that haven't concluded, how many, how many games that we've played that haven't concluded? Do you remember vividly?
Robert:I would personally say very few. Um, and, but the ones that I do remember, it's typically what I'm remembering is the reason why the story didn't come to a good conclusion. Yeah. I'm, I'm remembering what the problem was, what the breakdown of the story was, what it was that caused it to go off the rails and all of us to throw up our hands and say, okay, time for a new game.
Nate:game. I certainly, I would say single digits, um, and probably low single digits. Um, I would say in terms of games that were truly memorable, that didn't have a good ending I don't mean a happy ending. I mean, a good solid ending. Two that I can think of off the top of my head. I might be able to dig up a third if I thought long enough, I, I don't think I would get much more than that.
Robert:So when it comes to the ending itself, what stands out to you as the best sort of endings for most stories? Is, is it the sacrifice or is it the triumph? Is it a mixture of the two? Which ones are most meaningful to the two of.
Nate:Yeah, I think the most meaningful to me, the ones that are absolutely at the peak of sort of storytelling success for me are the ones that involve massive heroic sacrifice. But what I will say is that I don't think that I would want every game to end that
Robert:way. Sure. Yeah.
Nate:I think, I think that is a, that is a spice that is best used sparingly.
Chris:I mean, I, I think maybe this is because we grew up together, but I, I would agree with you there, that idea of. I don't know if Marty dumb is the right word, but almost that this idea of sacrificing for a greater
Nate:absolutely is,
Chris:is near and dear to my heart. Um,
Nate:think Marty drum is a good word for that. Yeah. It's it's exactly what we're talking about.
Chris:Yeah, yeah. That, that, that gets me like no other mm-hmm
Robert:I can definitely say all the moments in my games where, um, you know, all of us men around the table have been crying, have all been those sorts of scenarios where it has been not, not even necessarily death, but, but big moments of personal sacrifice. And.
Chris:I
Robert:think more than that, it's, it's the player making the decision to have the character make that choice.
Chris:Mm-hmm
Robert:it really boils down to, I think if the player doesn't have the agency of choice, then the sacrifice is never as meaningful.
Nate:meaningful. It almost becomes utterly meaningless. If, if they're not the one making the decision, that's not sacrifice. That's just dying.
Robert:Right. Well, I mean, I can think of certain, certain circumstances and games we've played in where the character has been, quote, unquote offered a choice, but the choice has been like, it's not really a choice. Right. those times when it really is a choice, they could go either way, they could choose the selfish route and, you know, just looking out for them and their. Or they can do the really big sacrifice that's going to change their life usually for the worst or take it away completely for everybody else's benefit.
Chris:Well, and it's interesting because I, I wanna go back to the heels journey for a second because your character starts to mean more than just. What you were putting into it, if that makes sense, like, there is a community that you have grown to known and they love, love, or hate you, or, you know, you have a, you have a meaning to them. and that is like, again, back to the self game. That is where that moment really shines forth in terms of, it's not just, you know, me necessarily sacrificing myself for, you know, the moment it is you feel within the world that you will make a difference there as well.
Nate:Totally. And, and those, those bonds that you talk about go well past the other players and extends to all of those characters that are run by the DM.
Robert:Mm-hmm
Nate:That that just because they're not player characters, doesn't make those bonds any less strong. we keep bringing up the else game. The whole purpose of the game was the betterment of our entire civilization. Basically we were trying to save them from a catastrophe. and, and even if we didn't know most of the elves, it was still worth it. Like, like they were our people and, and were so deeply held. Within our hearts. And I say that not even, not even as a character, I literally, as a player.
Chris:Yeah.
Robert:Mm-hmm
Chris:every
Nate:one of those elves meant something to me. And so the sacrifice, I mean, yes, I had a choice, but at the same time, I, I didn't really
Robert:I,
Nate:I mean, not to sacrifice, would've been literally a betrayal of everything that had led up to that moment.
Robert:No, I think, and you make a good point. And in that game specifically, it's a great example of what you were talking about is you were making the sacrifice only for DM PCs, like NPCs only, cuz both of you were sacrificing your life. there were no other player characters in the game. So literally all you were doing was from all those, you know, supplemental characters that you met throughout the world play by the.
Chris:DM.
Nate:Uh, I wonder if that might be the, uh, one of the few party created TPK
Chris:that's true. Yeah,
Robert:that is awesome. All right. Well, let's move on to tricks of the trade. Okay. So for today's tricks of the trade, I thought it would be fun to discuss some ideas of what would. A really cool ending to a campaign. I could actually go ahead and get started,, a scene that really is standing out in my head right now. And it's probably because we've been talking about this self game and it reminds me in a lot of ways of, the Tony stark moment at the end of Avengers in game where he is making that great, huge, epic sacrifice.
Chris:not,
Robert:I mean, he's sacrificing truly his happiness. He had, he had finally had the life he had always hoped for and was living in a way that I don't think he ever thought he could live. And then he asked to sacrifice himself for all of humanity, essentially, but it was just that moment of, of like pure. Selflessness from the most selfish of characters so I think finding a moment where you can have a character who is the unlikely hero, take a stand would be a really good way to end a campaign.
Chris:I think for myself, actually photo Bains comes to mind, um, the ability to do something that they don't want to do from the start and get to the end and survive, and then realize that you must walk away. That you you've done everything that you could have done you got done what needed to get done and you have to leave and you have to walk away from it all.
Nate:I, I think there's something very fundamental to the human condition in that story. And it's the concept that you can't go home you spend that kind of time away and especially those sorts of experiences, that kind of pressure, even if home hasn't changed one little bit, you have changed so much that it doesn't fit the way it used to.
Robert:right. I mean, we all look back with nostalgia about what, what our lives were when we were children, about how easy things were, how much fun we had, how great things were. But I think a lot of times we would be like photo. If we were to actually go back to our shires and see lives, all of our experience and all of the things that we've been through and fought through and dealt with. Completely change our ability to enjoy that piece and that moment anyways, mm-hmm so I think you're very, you're very right about that.
Chris:A he, a he hero's journey.
Robert:Yep, exactly.
Nate:truly, truly. I feel like I want to go with an ending moment that maybe isn't quite such the heroic sacrifice. I, I think we've.
Robert:we've
Nate:Touched on it a lot. I, I think there's something to be said, with ending the game in a place where you have a great deal of success, you have overcome sort of some sort of giant hurdle and you get just maybe a little bit of an epilogue sort of episode where you get to embrace the characters. Transformation from heroic struggle to more mundane responsibilities. It's, it's saving the kingdom, drawing the sword from the stone and, and now you're settling into rule the kingdom and, and maybe that isn't worthy of a whole lot of role play at the table. Maybe, maybe you don't wanna chase that too far. Chase it just a little bit so that you get to experience that catharsis of settling into the reward for all of the struggle.
Robert:I like what you're saying there, it actually reminds me of, uh, the wheel of time series where you have this whole long epic of Rand El, or finally getting to the end, finally facing off against the dark one. And then the last chapter is basically I'm going to go live in peace and smoke my pipe, and I still have all these great powers. I just wanna live a normal life now I just want to chill. Mm-hmm and yeah,
Nate:isn't that Elster too, in, in a lot of ways. I mean, they continue to drag him out of retirement for a long time and sort of throw him into the middle of things because it made great books. But in the end he always came back to his little tower in shadow Dale and sat there, smoking his pipe like that. That was. Sort of his goal in life was to get back there. And the rest of it was just sort of what had to be done.
Robert:Awesome. Well, thank you both for joining me today. Uh, CYC lids. If you like this episode, please subscribe to the podcast. Leave me a review on Spotify or, apple podcasts and always check out my book. It is. Session zero, the DMG to writing great campaigns in any system, you can find a link to that book in the show notes, and you can also find it on Amazon. And I do want to make an announcement. We are going to continue new episodes through the end of October, and then we're going to break a. For the season finale at that point, we'll have two months off and come back at the beginning of the new year, 2023 with season two, we're gonna be reformatting the show a little bit and making some improvements to our, broadcast. So just stay tuned for that and stick with us in the meantime. And until then, we'll see you all next session.
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