#44 | High Risk to High Performance with Mitch Chan

Jess Kismet (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. My name is Jess Kismet and I am your host. Today we are joined by Mitch Chan. Mitch is the founder and managing director of Agatha Builders serving Sydney's North Shore and Northern beaches.

The learning for Mitch did not stop once he got his builder's licence as it does for so many. Despite there being no mandatory professional development for builders and trades, Mitch has gone after so much knowledge, innovations and the networks to make himself the best builder he can be. From building biology to healthy materials to passive house, Mitch is on a mission to ensure that his business delivers a measurable standard of health and performance in every home he touches. Welcome to the show, Mitch.

Mitch Chan (00:42)
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jess Kismet (00:45)
No worries. So the name of your business got me a little bit intrigued. Where does it come from and why did you choose it?

Mitch Chan (00:54)
Yes, so it's a ancient Greek biblical word. So in the Bible, at the start it says like, God created the earth and then he said it was good. And so it's the word for good. And so the word good, it means both like morally good as well as quality good. So.

That's what we're trying to implement throughout all of our standards is that we want to have good people in the business, where you feel comfortable and safe having our staff around. But then we also produce a good outcome, a good product. Yeah, so that's where it comes from.

Jess Kismet (01:37)
Did that come through family influence for you? Like when you were thinking of it, cause it's hard to think of a business name, right? So where did that, like, was the, what was the inspiration?

Mitch Chan (01:41)
no.

Yeah.

Yeah, so when I started, I started with a carpentry business and that was called Kingdom Creations and it was just based off, I liked the idea of Kingdom building and then that was already taken by someone I know.

Then I was just like, I'll just change it slightly. I made it King of Creations. And then I was never really stoked. I was like, I wanted it to have more thought, more meaning behind it. And then so when I eventually turned into a building company, was opportunity to change it. And at that time as well, I transitioned to a company because one, we were changing from just carpentry to building. And then two, because I was bringing on a business partner.

Jess Kismet (02:37)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (02:38)
And so yeah, we're going into a company and then, so we were both like, we really want this to mean something, not just be my initials or like just something really simple. So I wanted some depth behind it. Yeah, so we, we're both Christians, like we've been,

been friends for a long time and then like our friendship was kind of formed through going to church together. and yeah, so that's all where it came from.

Jess Kismet (03:13)
That's really cool. That's really cool. That's something a little bit different. I like it. So take us back. You decided to do a carpentry apprenticeship. What got you to where you are now?

Mitch Chan (03:28)
I actually didn't start out so I went to private school and then you know there's doing a trades not even really on the radar it's not even talked about at all so I was just thinking what what degree am I gonna do when I finish school didn't like the look of anything

I kind of felt like I either wanted to be a cop or I wanted to teach design and tech. And I went into uni first studying design and tech, like teaching. And then it just started with all these like arts history subjects that...

I found terrible and I was like this is just not for me so I was like I'm out of here and then um

Jess Kismet (04:17)
You don't teach the kids at school that

either. Like I did with work at school. We don't learn about history and art. What a waffle.

Mitch Chan (04:21)
Yeah, I think it's just because it's art subjects. like the

just some of the filler subjects that first year things. But I was like, OK, well, design teaching didn't work. So I'll try. I didn't want to be a cop straight away at like 18. So was like, I'll just I'll study something to do with that. And then when I'm finished, I'll be a bit older and I'll go and like join the police. And then so I studied criminology.

and then got to the end of that and was like, yeah, this just studying thing is not for me at all. So I left and at the time I was living with now my business partner, we were living together in share house and he was doing carpentry. And yeah, he would, he would just whinge about the things he was doing, like just laboring and stuff like that. And then I was like, that sounds amazing. Like I was whinging about writing stupid

essays and stuff and then yeah so I just thought I'd give give that a go and then absolutely loved it like my first day I was just sitting in the mud like cleaning trowels after a concrete pour but I was frothing like I that's having the best day ever yeah and yeah so it kind of kicked off from there and it's it's ironic because then my mate he once he finished his carpentry apprenticeship he went to uni and studied philosophy so we just like swapped back

Jess Kismet (05:22)
You

wow, you switched.

Mitch Chan (05:50)
Yeah, and then he came back again.

Jess Kismet (05:50)
Is he, is he, but he's your business partner now. So he's back on the tools. You guys must have some really interesting conversations.

Mitch Chan (05:56)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah, found out that that doesn't really pay very well, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. Good thing we're pretty aligned, so it's not like there's a lot of arguing.

Jess Kismet (06:01)
about religion, philosophy, building.

Yeah.

that's really interesting, the things you find out about people. So what kind of work do you specialise in at a cafe?

Mitch Chan (06:24)
Yeah, we're like, we're very young and we're still evolving and learning. like over the last year, I've learnt so much. And so I find it hard to say, you know, like I specialize in this area, because for me, that sounds like, you know, you're an expert, you're you specialize in this. So like, I would say that we, we, we

We would really love to one day say we specialize in passive house. And yeah, that's the goal to eventually be just, you know, we'll only build passive house. yeah, so at the moment, you know, we build healthy and I know it's a buzzword and people hate it, but high performing homes. it's a...

Jess Kismet (06:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (07:17)
a focus on energy efficiency, a home that's really going to look after and add value to your life rather than being something that makes you sick.

Jess Kismet (07:28)
That's a good goal to have. So you are currently studying the advanced diploma in building biology, same as me. That's awesome. So why did you think, I mean, like as I said in the intro, you've done so much study. You've done Zara D'Cotta's healthy building materials course. You've done the live life build stuff. You have done, did you do the passive house?

Mitch Chan (07:39)
Yeah.

Jess Kismet (07:55)
trades course and now you're doing advanced diploma in building biology. So I mean you say studies not for you, but clearly you love to learn. Why did you think that doing this advanced diploma was going to be an important career move for you and sort of what was the the moment like what was the motivation behind that?

Mitch Chan (08:02)
Yeah.

started all this stuff only in the last year. And it was actually partly because of you. Like I've been listening to your podcast and just going, okay, like started learning about this stuff, becoming like obsessed with it. And then just thinking how do I learn more? And then I think you mentioned it a couple of times in the podcast and I was like, I'll look that up. then, yeah, so I found it and was like, yeah, this sounds pretty good. It's just like the next area that I can

learning. It all kind of probably yeah like this time last year, got a mate that did the Zara D'Cotta's course and he was like oh check it out so I was like okay and then just started looking into it. I decided to do the course, was curious. Then

Jess Kismet (09:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (09:10)
Yeah, so that was pretty interesting. And then I also had just those early days into Live Life Build as well. so Duayne is on about the healthy home kind of stuff. it all started to pique my interest. And then, yeah, it got to the end of healthy homes, the healthy home materials mastermind and...

Jess Kismet (09:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (09:38)
Yeah, I just kind of had my eyes open to it. it's like, when people in this area all say the same thing and I understand now, it's kind of like you go down this rabbit hole and once you start learning about this stuff, you can't unlearn it like, morally. It's like, I can't go and put a sarking wrapper on a building now knowing the potential effects it could have. so yeah, it just keeps shaping. I'm like,

What's even worse is that, you know, the building code lets you do these things. So once I, once you learn about this stuff, I'm like, Oh, like if I just keep building to the building code, I potentially could have some really bad problems that now I might be liable for as well. So I'm not going to get help from the building code of how to build better. So these are the other places I've learned how to build better.

Jess Kismet (10:11)
Mm.

Mitch Chan (10:33)
And then I, yeah, after I finished the Zara D'Cotta's course, I was like, what's next? And yeah, I thought, Rod really likes to learn passive house. And then I signed up to that. And then as I was getting towards the end of that, I was like, well, what's next? And I heard about building biology. So I was like, okay, let's do that. And not sure what's going to be after this one.

Jess Kismet (10:58)
A lot can change in a year. Like you say, you've only been doing this for a year, but I know building companies who have completely turned around in a year's period. you know, that's...

Mitch Chan (11:00)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'm very grateful that

I've come across this stuff early in the business because I could imagine like, you know, being 10, 20 years into it and then learning and then just, I don't know, it'd feel very scary thinking about all the stuff that like, I think about some bathrooms that I've reno'd back in the early days and I'm like, I really wish I did a flood test back then. Like, yeah.

But I'm grateful that the information is out there, that it's pretty readily accessible now. So, yeah, it's good.

Jess Kismet (11:51)
Yeah, I think that sort of fear that you're talking about is very real and it does, it affects people who've been in the industry for a long time because if they start to look at this stuff it means they have to admit that perhaps they didn't do it right before and that can be a very difficult thing, or not right, they were doing it.

in accordance with the building code. It's not wrong. It's just when you realise that there's better ways to do things, sometimes that can be tricky for people who have been doing it a certain way for a long time. There's mental blockers there. I come across them reasonably regularly as clients bring their projects to me and they say, my builder isn't on board or such and such. And those conversations can be quite sort of...

Mitch Chan (12:24)
Mm.

Jess Kismet (12:40)
It's like stunted.

Mitch Chan (12:42)
Yeah. And then the thing is, well, like, it's not like a lot of this stuff, if you do it the old way, it's not like you're guaranteed to have problems. It's just that your chances are much higher. um, yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (12:53)
Mm.

Yeah, exactly.

Yep.

Mitch Chan (12:58)
So you

could have been fortunately getting away with it, not having any problems for a long time. But yeah, your chances are very high. So there's enough risk in it that I'd like to be able to mitigate as much as I can.

Jess Kismet (13:12)
Absolutely, and I think being a builder is one of, it's a pretty risky career choice. Like the risk that you guys take on is high. So if I were you, I'd be wanting to reduce that as much as possible as well.

Mitch Chan (13:26)
Yeah. And no one, no one

ever thinks about that risk when you start. Like you learn about that risk when you're, when you're already doing it. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (13:32)
No.

when it's too late. It's

too late to go back. So as you're going down this whole learning about better building path, air tightness is bound to have come up. Everyone talks about air tightness, it's the underpinning element of any high performing or better performing home.

It's now in the building code in a very loose, sort non-mandatory kind of way. So the conversation is starting and I just wondering, as you learn about it, how are you starting to incorporate this into your building practice with your clients?

Mitch Chan (14:14)
That's so funny how that's like regulated because like I've been hearing about it you know podcasts and just here and there and then we finished a job and going for our you know final certificates and everything and then you know the certifier wanted you to say yes the building is

Air tight, but it was like that was it you know to what can what condition like what you know level of air changes or anything It wasn't any not specific. They just said are is it airtight? You're like yes, I've built it to air tightness But you know it's very vague and like what does that mean like no one's ever Educated us on what that actually means But yeah your original question, what's your

thoughts around it, I think.

Jess Kismet (15:09)
So you actually got asked

by a certifier, is this building airtight?

Mitch Chan (15:14)
Yeah.

Jess Kismet (15:17)
That's a new one. I haven't heard of actually, haven't... Yeah, I haven't heard of anyone actually checking. So cool.

Mitch Chan (15:19)
Yeah, it was the first time I saw it as well.

And it's,

it was a, extension as well. So it's like, well, you know, my parts probably is pretty good, but the rest of the house is definitely not. Yeah. Yeah. Although maybe it was a bit the, on the DA was a granny flat and our extension.

Jess Kismet (15:36)
Yeah.

Mitch Chan (15:46)
and the IC was all together. We didn't do the granny flight, but I think there was a lot of like crossover. So maybe it was, it was just meant to be relating to the granny flight, but I don't know. It was very, very confusing.

Jess Kismet (15:57)
So it was a verbal conversation or you had to like, is it an email or?

Mitch Chan (16:00)
Now as part of the like, there's a checklist

from the certifier and it was one of the items. Yeah. That I had to tick off and say, yeah, but it's like, yeah, it's hard to what standard like exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (16:04)
Yeah right. Is this airtight? What kind of a question is How long is a piece of string?

Oh my god. Okay, cool. So, yeah, so how are you incorporating all of that into your discussions with your clients? Or are you? Have you started that yet?

Mitch Chan (16:30)
Yeah, I mean, think it's something that I'm just still learning more and more about. I do like to bring it up as much as possible. Yeah, I think it's very helpful if you can get a designer that or the client's already aware of it and they're driving and then it's like...

Jess Kismet (16:37)
Mm.

Mitch Chan (16:54)
I can go, like, you know, I agree with this and I understand it and I'm happy to build to this standard because that's what we like anyway. I mean, we build to that anyway. Like there's a lot of things that...

the client's choices in the end like, that'll cost more but the non-negotiable like, you know, we use vapor permeable wraps and we tape everything up and do all our windows properly because it's insurance for me anyway, like making the building watertight. So, so yeah, but how far you go with it, like if you're actually going to do a blow it or test and measure it and, and,

Jess Kismet (17:26)
Yep. Yep.

Have you done one yet?

Mitch Chan (17:41)
No, I haven't. very, very keen to. I'm actually tempted to do one, like just pay for one on our build at the moment because just out of curiosity, just to see how well we're building to it.

Jess Kismet (17:43)
You should. They're fun.

Yeah, you should. Yeah, when

I find all of the clients that I've worked with that just start out, that's how they normally do it. They cop the cost because then they can't sell it to their client if they don't really understand what it all is and how to achieve it and what it all means. So they normally just pay it out of their own pocket and as like a learning expense, like a education expense.

Mitch Chan (18:03)
Hmm.

Yeah, I'm thinking about doing put my project manager to the test as well.

Jess Kismet (18:25)
Exactly.

So the Live Life Build community is quite strong. I know a number of builders who've gone through it and they

promote the PAC, the PAC process, the paid as a consultant process, which I really like. So that means that a builder is brought on board with a project with the architect and the client early. So the builder is paid as a consultant in the design phase. So how do you think that this protects the goals of the project, especially when budget starts to get squeezed?

Mitch Chan (19:06)
Yeah, well, budget is like everyone's biggest concern. Like in our inquiry form, one of my questions is, you know, what's your biggest concern around doing a renovation extension or a new build? And it's like all the time it's budget, budget blowout, budget, budget. Which is fair enough because it is something that is...

is very, very hard or like almost impossible to get like 100 % right. The more experience you have, the better at it you get. And also like builders are so, myself included, so uneducated on how to get it right without like a pre-construction process like the pack process. It is, it is...

Jess Kismet (19:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (19:55)
like I reckon it's impossible to get it right. And yeah, there's no like standard of education around it. Like, you you go and do your cert four and you just have to do two years experience on site and then you're a builder. there's no real education on how to price a job and just how to do a whole pre-construction process. Like before I found Live Life Build,

Jess Kismet (20:18)
Mm-mm.

Mitch Chan (20:25)
I didn't even know what a preliminary contract was. I didn't even know that that was a thing. thought you just, you know, you figure out a quote and then you go for it. Yeah. So it's, it's vital for getting the price as accurate as possible. And then that just means that in the end, your client's budget is protected because

Jess Kismet (20:36)
No.

Mitch Chan (20:55)
Yeah, without doing the proper investigation and planning, there's just bound to be things that get missed. And then once they get missed, to fix them up during construction is always much more expensive than if you had just planned for it. It might be like, getting the, doing your soil testing right and...

testing where your peers are actually going to go, finding out how deep your peers are going to have to be, as opposed to...

if the engineer just, the geotech just goes there and just tests anywhere random and then, you know, hits a floater or something and says, yeah, the piers are going to be a meter deep. And then on the day you find out they're three meters deep. then now you've got a variation for, you know, whole heap of extra concrete. Now they have to be like reinforced and more excavation and yeah.

Jess Kismet (21:46)
That's not good.

Mitch Chan (21:53)
if you could have planned for that and then knowing where the budget's going to be is much better than just copying big variations later. And then like no builder as well likes to give out variations. It's hard to maintain a good relationship with any client if you're just constantly giving out variations. So yeah, good planning is very important. What do they say?

failing to plan is planning to fail. That's it. That one. Yeah, that one too. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (22:25)
Preparation prevents piss poor performance. How about that one?

Have you ever had an issue with an architect or a designer where you've looked at their plans and gone you can't build that? Like where you can tell they haven't had any construction input?

Mitch Chan (22:46)
Yeah, well, I've had a client that decided to be the architect. And the plans were, um, looked like they were drawn on Microsoft Paint. So, it's very early days and, and, know, we just need the work and we're like, oh, we'll figure it out. And we figured it out. It was very expensive exercise for me. Um, yeah, yeah.

Jess Kismet (22:50)
fun.

no.

You

Yep. You live, learn, right?

Mitch Chan (23:15)
That happens most of the time for us, but I think that's just because we're still very young and in developing relationships with architects. So right now, most of the time we're meeting them for the first time. And so how they prepare drawings and everything might be a little bit different for us. So we generally have to ask for more details.

Jess Kismet (23:40)
Yeah.

Mitch Chan (23:41)
Just like having incorporating a cavity batten system, that's a pretty typical one. It's not a standard part of building practice, so we always have to add that in.

Jess Kismet (23:55)
So you add that in. So is that something that you have to go back? Because sometimes depending on like, like, evil's a good one. Like that always stumps people because...

Mitch Chan (23:57)
Yeah.

Jess Kismet (24:06)
like there's a rebate with Hebel and if you have like Hebel won't allow you to like I think there's a warranty issue where you can't add a button or something like that. I'm getting feedback from some people about that. So there's certain details that and especially people's use on an upper story that can kind of throw a bit of a spanner in the work. So is that something that you and the architect or designer work together to sort out or do you just do it?

Mitch Chan (24:31)
That's very interesting because we're literally just at the moment looking at a job where they really want to do Hebel.

And so, yeah, we're trying to figure that detail out. ideally, now we've learnt more about it. Now it's like, yeah, let's figure it out during pre-construction with the architect so we can detail it up and we can figure it out because then that helps us to actually price it accurately. But previously, when it's like, I've already started these projects and then we learn about this extra stuff, we've just had to then just incorporate it. Yeah, I mean, for one project that we...

Literally, I started learning about this stuff and we were just up to wrapping the building. I was like, oh, I've just learned about this whole system and this is why it's so good. You know, I think we should really do this. And then they were convinced and understood and said, yep. So like they were happy to pay a variation for it.

Yeah, so it's a bit of both, ideally really we just do it in planning. And that's what we do now, now that we've learnt about it. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (25:47)
So

this is an example of where, cause you know...

Back in the day, I used to work in the building code, like compliance space, and I sort of started to get a bit frustrated because what was designed and assessed and built could sort of be three different things. And this is similar, but in a good way. So you're actually improving the building on site using your knowledge instead of cutting corners, which is what I was finding or, know, blatantly changing glazing sizes without checking if that was going to affect, you know, the heating and cooling and, you know.

Mitch Chan (26:20)
Yeah. And that's exactly why, yeah, that's why I've like, continued to want to learn because there's so many times when we're looking at a detail and we're going, Oh, like, I think you should do it like this, but I want to naturally know rather than just being like podcast qualified. that's like, yeah, it kept me going on this like.

Jess Kismet (26:21)
That's cool.

Yeah. Hey, the podcasting

and Instagram world is like that. There should be like degrees based on Instagram, what you learn on Instagram.

Mitch Chan (26:49)
That should, yeah. yeah, like I've learned

so much and I mean I'm just in the car so much driving around site to site and stuff like that so it's such a good opportunity for me to learn. Yeah, so I'm so grateful for you, for all the guys out there and girls that are putting out these podcasts and yeah, so good.

Jess Kismet (27:11)
Yeah, it's good fun.

So you've also done, as we have already mentioned, Zara D'Cotta's Healthy Materials Mastermind. I've done that course as well. I did it when it was like a couple of three years ago now when she just started. She's done a lot of work to evolve and improve that course since then. It was good when I did it as well. So you are definitely someone who has invested in your learning. And from that study, have you identified any materials or systems that you just won't use anymore?

Mitch Chan (27:45)
I don't know if I would say specifically from that course, but that course, like I think that's where I first started to learn about vapor permeability. And so maybe you could contribute it to that course, but like now we just won't use the traditional sarking on a building.

which is like the wrap on your building because it's not vapor permeable. It won't release vapor, moisture.

And then being an aluminium, it's like a cold surface that will create a dew point condensation. it's very bad. So like that's something we just, you know, it's not an option for clients. It's just built into our pricing. It's one of the reasons why we're often more expensive, but we just, yeah.

Jess Kismet (28:33)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

negotiable on that one.

Yep.

Mitch Chan (28:49)
And then the course really just opened my eyes to things that I hadn't heard of before, like VOCs and just being aware of how heaps of manufactured materials are quite toxic and like off gas. And, you know, it's either these materials, you know, like they're good, they make building cheaper.

Jess Kismet (28:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (29:17)
because it's more efficient and easier to produce rather than something natural. But that comes at a cost. So it's like you either pay out of your back pocket or you pay with your health. And for me, at the end of the day, it's not really my...

choice to make for a client. So I think my job is to educate people because I had no idea before I learnt about it and then give them the option and everyone's got a budget so they've to choose where they want to spend their money.

Jess Kismet (29:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's just totally about an informed choice. Like as you say, lots of clients that come to you will have no idea what a VOC is either. They don't know what vapor permeability is. They don't know what a blower door test is. But once they know, same as you, they can start to Google and listen to Instagram and podcasts and go down this very same rabbit hole. And once you've got them on the same page, that's when you can start to really like align and get the right outcomes from an informed place.

Mitch Chan (30:21)
Mm.

Jess Kismet (30:23)
we were talking before off air about a client project that you had where you actually convinced the client to build better. Please tell us about that story.

Mitch Chan (30:34)
Yeah, this, building a new house and the client was very sold on a steel frame and

at the time I had no idea. This was before I started learning about building better and everything. And I wasn't that convinced just from being a carpenter. I don't like to work with steel. I like to work with timber. So I pushed back a bit, but she was like, no, no, I've seen all these houses in the area just eaten alive by termites. Like I have to have a steel frame. So we were like, all right, like,

know we really wanted the job I'm sure it can't be that hard we'll just we'll do it and then as we've gone along yeah we've had some problems with the steel frame but it's not the end of the world it's it's fine enough to work with but then I started learning about thermal bridging and yeah just moisture and everything and then I started learning how

yeah these steel studs are a thermal bridge so if you've got you know if it's really hot outside and you've got air con inside sure in between the studs you're insulated but

where your studs are, someone said it's, you know, like if you've got a bucket of water with holes in it, you know, the water is just going to flow through those holes. So like the studs are just like pathways for your temperature to, well, your heat to be, to be going through. And then if you've got hot day outside, cold air con pumping inside, you're going to just create a condensation point and then you're going to start getting, and then yeah, I mean, we'll have our vapor permeable wrap, so that's all right, but.

Jess Kismet (32:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (32:28)
is still going to cause problems like what happens when there's moisture buildup on the back of the jib rock and then that's just going to create a know perfect spot for mould to form. Yeah so that the only what I learnt was the only way to stop that is to basically make a thermal break so where that bridge is prevent it from those two temperatures from being able to come together and

Jess Kismet (32:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (32:58)
Yeah, so I suggested to the client that we should do some sort of thermal break there. One option would be like foam insulation, so like an XPS foam all the way around, which would be the more cost effective. I wasn't that keen on that option because from an environmental, from a health perspective, it's not that great.

and the client agreed as well. said that like, yes. it's a, sorry, sometimes I accidentally do a bit of an accent because she's French. it's, it just comes up naturally. Yeah. She was like, yeah, I don't want it. Like I heard it's, you know, super flammable as well. I don't want this flammable product wrapping my wrapping my building. So then I had also just learned about

Jess Kismet (33:31)
Hahaha

because that just happens naturally.

Very, yeah.

Mitch Chan (33:49)
wood fibre insulation and I heard that it was very expensive and it was but she was

She was like, yep, no, like I think it's very important and I just want to get the structure of the building right and then all the finishes and things can come later. If I run out of money, I'll save up and yeah. So she's been like a dream client in that way, like valuing the things that we value. And yeah, so now we're learning new lessons about wood fiber installation and some troubles with installing it, but overall it's been a really great product to work with.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (34:26)
That's incredible that you actually managed to convince your client, and it doesn't sound like it was too difficult, that she should externally insulate her steel frame. Like, you did a good thing. That's amazing.

Mitch Chan (34:40)
Hahaha

Yeah, it's good. mean,

it's, um, I don't know, it's almost selfish because now I know, now I'm much more confident. Like I would hate for, yeah, if I hadn't learned this stuff, then who knows 10 years down the track, she might have a very moldy building and, and also just perform terribly, especially when she's trying to make it.

as high performing as possible. So it's like, you know, she is energy conscious and yeah, we just would not have delivered on that at all. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (35:20)
But she's European, she's French. So that actually

makes sense. That's actually not a, like that's not a, well what am I trying to, like not a non thing. Like that's a thing, she's from Europe, understands that, cause a lot of people who come to Australia from overseas, whether it's the US or, you know, somewhere where it's really cold in Europe, they all come here and they're like.

Mitch Chan (35:30)
All

Jess Kismet (35:47)
Like the housing here is I've never been so cold and I come from the snow Like so they they really like recognize the difference in in thermal comfort and quality from from home from their home hometown to Australia That's a it's a common thing. So Yeah, that's that's a really cool story. I So that project is still going

Mitch Chan (35:51)
Heh.

You

Yes, we are just getting it wrapped now. with the roofs on and we've almost finished putting the wood fibre on the walls.

Jess Kismet (36:30)
So what's that wall detail look like?

Mitch Chan (36:33)
Yeah, so this is one of those ones where it's like actually, I wish we had detailed it before, because now we've just had to come up with it ourselves, which I'm like, you know, would like an engineer or someone, but like, yeah, to actually detail this, I guess it would be like a passive house consultant. did, I've got a couple of passive house.

architects that I talked to and I ran it through with them and kind of figured out the detail but basically we've got the we've got a steel stud and then we've got wood fiber 60mm wood fiber and then a wib on top that was a bit of a I don't know everyone was telling me that just put the

Jess Kismet (37:00)
Yep.

Mitch Chan (37:20)
they were like the wood fiber will be watertight and you know it's hygroscopic so it can handle water but I was like well like if we can put the WRB on the outside why not is there a disadvantage to that?

Jess Kismet (37:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (37:42)
So yeah, anyway, we just did, we did put it on the top of the wood firebox. It like, may as well make it bit more waterproof, why not? And then our cavity batten and then our counter batten for our cladding. So it ended up being, you know, quite a thick wall for Australian standards anyway.

Jess Kismet (37:58)
Mm-hmm.

Yep, so there was no issues with space there, you could just add that wood fibre. How thick is it?

Mitch Chan (38:09)
The Wood 5x60mm.

Jess Kismet (38:11)
Okay, and wood, like obviously this lady went for steel over timber because of termites. Wood fibre, talk to me about termites and wood fibre.

Mitch Chan (38:20)
Yeah, I mean, I actually, like I looked into it a little bit. I didn't get real clear answers, but what I did get was that because it's, you know, it's wrapped and you got your termite protection underneath anyway, then it was all, it's all fine. It's all sealed off. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, as far as I'm aware, it was fine, but I was curious on like, you know.

Jess Kismet (38:26)
Mm-hmm.

not in contact with the ground or anything like that. Yeah.

Mitch Chan (38:49)
say they were able to get to it somehow, how do they react to the wood fibre itself? And I didn't get an answer on that.

Jess Kismet (38:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah so just a little fun fact about steel it is 384 times more thermally conductive than timber.

Mitch Chan (39:08)
There you go.

Jess Kismet (39:11)
384. So if you are building with steel you are building with a temperature superhighway. So if it's cold outside or it's hot outside, yes there's cladding and there's plasterboard but you are still building with a highly thermally conductive material so externally insulating it is definitely the best way to protect your air conditioning bill and your condensation risk depending on your climate and where you are. So yeah, another...

Mitch Chan (39:18)
Mm.

Jess Kismet (39:38)
Good example of how you have made a building better, Mitch. Well done. If you could change one thing in the Australian Building Code right now to ensure that our homes are healthier to live and breathe in, what would that be?

Mitch Chan (39:41)
Good.

I reckon, I mean, it's kind of already happening. but I would make the vapor permeable membrane and a cavity button or cavity ventilation system mandatory. I mean, you said one thing, but I would also make air tightness and mechanical ventilation just a standard.

Jess Kismet (40:12)
Yeah, I mean, just do those two things. Like it sounds complicated, but it's not once you know how to do it. Those two things would make a huge difference to the lived experience and health of the buildings that we live in in Australia. So yeah, I agree.

Mitch Chan (40:30)
yeah, I feel like it should be a standard. It shouldn't be like a question, oh, should we add this in? Like it should just be a standard part of building and bring some more competition into the market and try and get prices down. Yeah, on mechanical ventilation that is.

Jess Kismet (40:46)
Yeah,

yeah, especially the ventilated cavity system because that like, protecting your building from the good WRB behind the the cladding and then the ventilated and drain cavity system like cladding then it's a big mistake that people make thinking that the cladding is the water barrier. Like that's not the water barrier. It will leak at some point.

Mitch Chan (41:08)
No.

Jess Kismet (41:12)
over the life of the building and you need a second layer of defence behind that cladding. So the vented and drained cavity is the easiest, cheapest, simplest way to increase the durability of any timber-framed, steel-framed building. It's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

Okay, we're up to the last question that I ask everybody. Out of everything that you've learned or experienced in your career, what is the one thing that you want people to know?

Mitch Chan (41:42)
my very long career that I've had, I would say that mould is worse than you think and prevention is far cheaper than a cure.

Jess Kismet (41:42)
because you've done a lot of learning in the last year or so.

Yep, I would agree with that.

Mold is something that you don't expect, I think. When you build a house or buy a house, it's not something that you go into it expecting to find. Like you build a house and you know, you people who they'll engage a builder and they'll have a conversation with somebody once and not long ago and they just said, well, I just thought that all builders kind of knew the same stuff and they all knew the code and they're all the same. And that is not the case.

Mitch Chan (42:09)
Mm.

Jess Kismet (42:28)
at all. are people like yourself who have gone far above and beyond just the basic trade and cert for to become a builder. Not basic, like the mandatory steps you have to take. And that makes a massive difference. Just the fact that you came across thermal bridging while building a steel framed home. Like it makes a huge difference to the outcomes once you start to go above and beyond those mandatory minimums. So.

Mitch Chan (42:54)
Yeah, I

reckon.

Jess Kismet (42:55)
that mould

prevention is something that the standard builder doesn't think about when they're building.

Mitch Chan (43:00)
Yeah, sure. Back to your question of if you could change one thing as well. Maybe I would change... When you sign up or when you finish your Cert IV, you get free access to the building code.

Jess Kismet (43:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (43:20)
I was going to say you get handed a copy of the building code but it's always changing. So you free access to the building code. Make it as simple and easy to memorize and access as possible.

Jess Kismet (43:35)
Yep, yep. Well the building code is free now, but the Australian standards aren't. So I would say that all of that should just be put into like one resource and made free for all builders. For sure.

Mitch Chan (43:46)
Yeah,

yeah and your thing about all builders build different and stuff like that, my parents did a first floor edition maybe five years ago.

and done by like a really good old school builder, been around for a long time. I think it was actually like his last job and then he retired. But like, you know, it looks amazing, really good quality. But then, and just built to like the standard way. And yeah, so it's been like five years and then they've got this quite a large mould.

problem old spot in the ceiling and so I had to cut it all out and try and find out where it was coming from and then I figured out what it was was at that area there's a chimney coming through and then there's a metal roof and they've done what's you know what's standard you just it's a quite a flat roof and they've turned up the inside flashing over the top pretty standard and this got like the anti-con blanket underneath

Jess Kismet (44:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mitch Chan (44:57)
And what I think has happened is it's facing south too. So with big southerlies and if it's like a storm, the wind's just coming up, it's getting past that upturn and then dripping down. And then once there was a bit of moisture in there, it causing mould. But if there was a proper WRB system in there, it was all taped up and sealed, then that moisture that gets in would have just drained out, dried out, and it would have been fine. So yeah, it's like that build up.

Jess Kismet (45:19)
drains away.

Mitch Chan (45:26)
He just did what he was taught to do and great builder but it's just not that, it's like a very old school building standard that's currently still our standard and yeah, just isn't good enough.

Jess Kismet (45:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's not durable enough in all circumstances.

Yeah, that WRB system with the roof membrane and the wall membrane, I just call it a giant flashing. It's like flashing your entire house and making sure that water can drain away because water buildings don't like water. Cool, all right. Well, thank you, Mitch. I hope that the listener has been inspired to go and do some more study based on.

Mitch Chan (45:58)
Hmm.

Yeah, that's right.

Jess Kismet (46:16)
your example and learn a few more things. It's been great to talk to you. Thanks for joining me today.

Mitch Chan (46:18)
Yeah.

Well, thanks for having me.

Jess Kismet (46:24)
To easy. See ya.

Mitch Chan (46:26)
See you Jess