#9 - Health, Energy Efficiency & Building What Matters with Cindy Angel

Jess Kismet (00:00)

Hello and welcome to the Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. Today my guest is Cindy Angel. She is Building a house with her husband Shane in a place called Lake Caddai. Did I say that right? Yeah, yeah. Great. Lake Caddai is in the mid north coast just south of Port Macquarie.

Cindy (00:13)

Yes, you did.

Jess Kismet (00:21)

Cindy is a thermal performance assessor by trade with a Building design background and I'm really stoked to have her on the show and talk about her house build, how it's gone, wins and losses, what you've learned and just hear a bit about it. So welcome Cindy.

Cindy (00:36)

Thank you so much. It's really lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Jess Kismet (00:41)

No worries at all, it's my pleasure. So please tell us about your house. What was the inspiration behind designing your own home and tell us a bit about the journey.

Cindy (00:51)

It's been quite the journey and yeah, I never thought I'd actually be designing my own home. I actually had a career transition back in 2019 and decided I wanted to study Building design. This is when we were living in Melbourne and yeah, just all made sense for me and it was a really great course and within a couple of weeks I was already learning about things like

condensation management and insulation and sustainability and all this kind of stuff. And then a couple of years later after COVID got sick of being locked down in Melbourne, we decided to move closer to my parents up on the mid-North coast. And that's when I started studying thermal performance assessment. And we found this block that we wanted to build on. We were Building a

duplex with a volume builder at the time up here. So it was interesting going through that process and seeing how little control we had over the process and I could see all of these things that I would have liked to have done differently that I just didn't have the opportunity to do in that kind of process. So that's really why we

wanted to design our own place and why, yeah, I ended up drafting the plans myself and used all that knowledge that I'd gained through the Building design education and then the NatHERS assessor stuff during that design process. it just, it gave me more control over what was happening with the design, what I could test. It was a much more fluid.

process being able to test things out and you know See what was working what wasn't you know, what would work for us what we liked what we didn't you know It just gave us a lot more control over that process and it was any it's been an incredible journey and I love it absolutely love This whole process it's stressful. It's challenging, you know, there's lots of hurdles and I probably wouldn't draft my plans myself again but

Jess Kismet (03:16)

Hahaha!

Cindy (03:16)

That took a really long time. That took

a lot of time. But it was great. You know, I learned so much through the process that has helped me be better at what I do. So, yeah, that was kind of the inspiration. And we really wanted to design a home that would support us, that would actually, you know, be a bit of an example of what could be achieved, particularly in this climate zone, you know, coming from

Melbourne where we talked about all that sustainability and stuff so quickly, coming up here, it was like deer in headlights. Most of the time when I was talking about, why don't you put insulation in your internal walls? Or why don't you put extra insulation in the external walls? Or what about cavities, ventilation cavities? What do you do about condensation? Oh, no, you don't need to worry about

live in a great climate, know, it's so beautiful here all the time, why would you worry? That kind of stuff is what we get. it was like, that's, I understand how that's happened here. And we do have a lot of a lot of quick builds, a lot of volume builds are happening. There's a lot of new developments happening around Port Macquarie. So they've got a bit of a foothold here.

So they do things their own way, you know, and so challenging that process has been interesting, but it's definitely possible. There's lots of people here that want to do better. So yeah, that was one of the other main reasons, you know, the inspiration for doing it this way was to really challenge that process and show how, yeah, how we can build better in this climate.

Jess Kismet (05:10)

But I'm stuck on something you said right at the start. Can you just go back? You said that when you started your Building design studies, you were learning about condensation and energy efficiency really quickly. Is that, where did you study?

Cindy (05:19)

Yeah.

I studied at Box Hill TAFE down in Melbourne and one of, I think within the first two weeks, we had a Pro Clima representative come to the TAFE and actually do like a, cause I was studying at night. I was working at the time. So I was studying at night. He came and did like a presentation over the dinner break one night. And I was just like, yeah, that all makes sense. Like, why isn't everybody doing this?

Jess Kismet (05:30)

Yeah.

Cindy (05:56)

And I think that was my experience the whole way through the education was like, why isn't everybody doing things this way? This just all makes sense. then coming up here and sort of seeing how people aren't doing that was, yeah, it was a real eye-opening challenge.

Jess Kismet (05:56)

That is incredible.

I know, right?

Yeah, I am really, really astounded because I did, think Box Hill Institute is where the Passive House courses were run out of, or maybe still are being run out of. So maybe there's a collaboration there between the Passive House. The fact that you had somebody from Pro Clima come and talk to you actually really shocks me. really, really pleased, pleased but surprised. Sorry, excuse me.

Cindy (06:25)

Mmm,

Jess Kismet (06:44)

I I learned about all of this stuff. did a diploma at TAFE as well. And the number of architects I've talked about who who learned nothing about this stuff during their whole five year architecture degree still blows me away. I can't I mean, there's they learn about a lot of other things. But yeah, the fact that it's not taught in architecture school and the fact that it's taught at TAFE like, yeah.

Cindy (06:58)

⁓

⁓

Yeah, it was interesting. Like when I when I actually had this career transition and I and I decided that this is this is the industry that I want to be working in. I had that kind of choice, you know, do I spend six years doing an architecture degree and I've got degrees in other things, but I'd basically be going back to doing a bachelor's degree in a completely different area. Do I spend six years doing that or do I, you know?

go to TAFE and do this Diploma in Building Design And it came down to really the content. Like I actually really liked the content of the TAFE course a lot better because it was much more practical. There was so much more construction elements in that and like it doesn't cover everything obviously. There's loads more that you learn on site.

Jess Kismet (08:02)

Yep.

Cindy (08:11)

and working with builders. But there was so much more that I was exposed to in services and bushfire assessment. I got a taste of everything surveying the whole bit. You get a taste of everything, which was perfect for me. I've got a very hungry brain. I like to learn as much as possible. So I was supplementing.

TAFE course with loads of other things during that time as well. yeah, really just loading myself up as much as possible with, you know, sustainability courses from the Uni of TAS or, you know, interior design courses online or, you know, bits and pieces from here and there. And yeah, just found some really incredible communities of people that have, you know, I've continued learning from for years.

So it's been really good.

Jess Kismet (09:10)

Yeah, it sounds like you and I have had a quite a similar journey. had a sort of a I wasn't and I was wasn't until my late 20s early 30s that I started studying this. And I'm like you, like as soon as I found out as soon as I got a wind of this stuff, I was not doing extra courses, but I was getting like I found out about Earthships and I went and did some experience on an Earthship and I found out about this tiny home project that was being built. So I went and helped them out for a weekend and I was just

same hungry brain, like more, more, more. And I found a lot of satisfaction in that. So you've moved to the mid-North coast, you decided you don't like the way these builders are doing it and you want to do it yourself. Do you, by your face, do you regret that decision?

Cindy (09:41)

Yep. Yep.

Cool.

Well, that's probably a stretch.

No,

I have a builder and he's amazing. Yeah, no, yeah, it was more the design element, I guess. It's just, you know, when you go to these volume builders, and look, there's some fabulous volume builders out there. I'm not saying that everybody's bad. It's just that, you know, they don't even consider orientation. You walk into the door and they say, what floor plan do you like? And...

you know, what block have you got bang, we'll stick it on there and away we go. And, you know, that just, it's just never going to work that way. So I'm hoping that, you know, with the with the new changes with the seven star requirements and that kind of stuff that that kind of thing will eventually change and they have to start asking more questions. you know, there's just this cookie cutter kind of experience that just

from what I've seen from other friends that have gone through that process as well, it just doesn't hit the mark in terms of both the best energy efficiency that you can get out of your block, but also the best experience of a home as well. You know, I'm a firm believer that the homes you live in have a direct impact on how you show up in the world.

So who you are as a person, I've lived in some awful houses in my life and it has an impact on your mental health, your physical health, you know, all of these things. you know, having a home that is built to be comfortable, to be calm, to support you and your wellbeing, you know, that that's going to be good for society. And so that's sort of why I had the career change that I did. So,

Yeah, really want to push that agenda, I guess.

Jess Kismet (12:05)

Yeah, yeah, I admire that. So take us through the process of designing your home and getting it to site.

Cindy (12:15)

So, we bought this block in June 2021. So what are we now? We're almost June 2025. So it's been a four year process almost. As soon as we bought the block, I went to work, did the climate study, assessed what the constraints were and that kind of thing and started formulating the plan of what we wanted.

So that design process probably took a good six months and I found our builder during that time. So there was actually only one builder up here at that stage that was kind of talking sustainability and energy efficiency kind of language. So it was a pretty easy choice. And he's been fabulous. He's been so great. He met with me during the design.

Jess Kismet (13:03)

You're right.

Yep.

Cindy (13:14)

process to talk through things. It wasn't a formal process. There's a packed process that I know Amelia Lee talks a lot about that you can engage a builder, you pay to engage the builder during that process to collaborate. But this was an informal kind of process. And it was great because we had that connection and we've had that relationship sort of built up during that process.

The DA probably took about six months to go through and during that time the engineering kind of got done. So up here there seems to be an accepted process that you tend to put your design in for DA approval before you've got your engineering because it takes so long. it's like, no, just get it in. You get your engineering done whilst that's happening.

Jess Kismet (14:07)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cindy (14:12)

Had my time again, I'd probably do it very differently because the engineering changes the construction elements and therefore informs the design in lots of different ways. So yeah, that I would do differently. But anyway, that's what we did. And yeah, so we started building in September 2023. So we laid the slab in September 2023. So we're about 16 months in now.

Jess Kismet (14:15)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Cindy (14:43)

and I'm hoping we'll be at practical completion by Easter so you know fingers crossed.

Jess Kismet (14:51)

Mm-hmm. So you're nearly there.

Cindy (14:53)

We're nearly there, we're nearly there.

Jess Kismet (14:57)

Awesome. you mentioned before we press record here that you were using the NatHERS software because you did your thermal assessor training and you were using the NatHERS software yourself to inform your design to make sure that you were hitting the mark. Could you explain a bit about that?

Cindy (15:15)

Yeah, for sure. So I actually was studying during this sort of design phase. So I to actually get it into DA approval and, you know, get the certificate and that kind of thing, I did have to engage a different assessor to do that for me. And it was a really that in itself was really interesting because I had a very different service kind of relationship.

with different assessors. So I actually ended up engaging probably about four along that journey because I just was getting such a different experience that whole time. And I knew what I, yeah, I knew the kind of service and relationship that I wanted, but I just kind of wasn't getting it. There wasn't that kind of fluid collaboration during that design phase, I think.

Jess Kismet (15:52)

Yeah, right.

That's really interesting.

Cindy (16:14)

A lot of traditional assessors are very used to doing those transactional compliance certificates kind of right at the end of the design phase to get it off into council. And it's like, do whatever you need to do just to get this passed, know, a ceiling fan in, do this, do that, which you can't really do. That's not going to cut it anymore, thankfully. So, yeah, there was.

It was a varying degree between that kind of experience and a bit more of a collaborative consultative kind of experience. thankfully, I actually got my software training in time so that I could actually start testing things out myself. eventually I'd be like, instead of trying to ask this assessor to say,

What do you think? How should we improve this? That kind of stuff. I could test it out and go, look, just put these specs in and give me the result.

Jess Kismet (17:18)

interesting,

so you had sort of control on your end, did you find that the assessors that you employed to do your energy modelling for you were getting similar results to you or to each other or were they all different or did you not actually go to the end of the process with each of them? Like how did that...

Cindy (17:35)

Yep, great question. They actually differed slightly depending on the software that they used.

Jess Kismet (17:43)

And did they use, did they all use, yeah, explain a little bit more about that because I'm not sure that it's quite well understood how, or it's not well understood how energy compliance works, what the different softwares are, what the different methods of compliance are. So if you could explain your experience in that, that would be really, really interesting. Yeah.

Cindy (18:03)

Yeah, sure.

So there are then there's a number of different compliance pathways and it's dependent on what state you're in. So I'll just talk about the NatHERS sort of assessment pathway. So in terms of actually getting a NatHERS or a National Energy Rating certificate.

There's a number of different softwares that you can use. There's Accurate, there's Hero, there's... You're testing me now. First rate 5 thank you. I mean, there's one more. There's another one. But yeah, we'll go with... They're the three main ones. And they're very different. Each of them are very different tools to use. So each assessor sort of decides which tool that they want to use most and they train.

Jess Kismet (18:38)

First rate 5

Hahaha!

Cindy (18:58)

to use that tool. So they're, you know, they're people using these tools as well. So the way that they use that tool is always going to be slightly different. So I think you've got to remember that also. So they're always going to be a slightly different result. It's not just a machine spitting things out. And I think that's where the

Jess Kismet (19:13)

Yes.

Cindy (19:28)

beauty is in this as well. It can be human error, know, that things are different, but you're engaging a person to actually use a tool that they've been trained to use to help inform a design that you're trying to optimise So, you know, that person has to have a level of

flexibility and knowledge in how that tool works to be able to help you optimise the design that you're trying to get over the line. So, yeah, if that makes sense.

Jess Kismet (20:06)

Yeah,

their level of technical understanding of the software, of the construction and also their own, honestly their own integrity comes into play as well because things can be done on these assessments that don't get picked up by anyone that can benefit them. So yeah, I was really interested to know if they were getting different results because I think that that, like Seven Stars sounds like it's a

Cindy (20:27)

⁓

Jess Kismet (20:36)

a line in the sand and everyone's going to get the same result out of the same set of plans, but it's, it's not necessarily true at all. It's really like a, it's a bit of a, hmm.

Cindy (20:44)

No, it's not. No. Yeah,

it's not true. I think it's I think that's the shift between, you know, looking at this as just a purely a compliance tool, or looking at it as a actually consultative tool that can be used to help, you know, build better homes.

So, you know, and it's not perfect. There's not there are failings in the systems as there are in anything. So you really, you really got to rely on the expertise of the person that's using that tool to help you do what you do. It's the same when you're engaging a builder, you know, you're you're trusting the expertise of that person to give you an end result. So, you know, it's it's finding the right people to be part of that team.

Jess Kismet (21:09)

Optimise.

Cindy (21:38)

during that design phase to help you achieve the goals that you want to achieve. And yes, when you're talking about compliance, it is seven stars and over. And that's because you have to draw a line in the sand. It has to be drawn somewhere. So that's it.

Jess Kismet (21:58)

Yeah. Yeah, cool. All right. So let's move on from the whole NatHERS topic. Let's talk about your design in your home and your sort of goals with the home. So you wanted to incorporate healthy Building principles and better energy efficiency in your home. how did you do that? How did you learn about it? And how did you implement it?

Cindy (21:59)

Ha

Yeah. So the energy efficiency stuff, obviously, I trained as an assessor to be able to do that. it let me test out things like, you know, thermal mass, like, you know, if there's areas in the house that we're getting too hot or too cold, you know, what happened if I if I put a bit of thermal mass in there? Or what happened if I made the window smaller? Or what happened if I changed the specs to that window?

So, yeah, being able to do that meant that the design was always going to be a high performing house in terms of energy efficiency. So I was very comfortable with that. In terms of the healthy home aspect, again, it was kind of a bit of a no brainer for me. Like we always knew I'm a migraine sufferer.

And I have been ever since my mid 20s. And so I'm super sensitive to light, especially artificial light. I'm super sensitive to smells and just all sorts of stuff. It's really annoying. But that just leads me to be very conscious of what's going in my house, what materials we're using and how

how well this home is going to dry out and not have mould in the walls, know, because that's a big trigger. So I learnt...

Jess Kismet (23:59)

So mould specifically is a trigger for you, Cindy. Are you sensitive to mould or? Yeah.

Cindy (24:03)

⁓ I'm pretty sure pretty much everything is. ⁓ yeah.

Depends what day it is. No, I think I think definitely I can smell you ask any more any true migraine sufferer. You can smell mould a mile away. Like we should be mould. We should be mould detector dogs. I've walked in. It is a super skill.

Jess Kismet (24:12)

Yeah.

Yeah, wow.

That's a super skill. Sixth sense.

Cindy (24:32)

I walked into rooms and just

gone, wow, what is that? And nobody else can smell it. And you find it, it'll be under a sink or under a wall or something. Yeah, it's full on. So yes, making sure that that wasn't in the house is important. And things like just air quality.

Jess Kismet (24:39)

Wow.

Wow. Yeah.

Cindy (25:00)

The water quality, like we're putting our whole of home water filter on the house so that we don't have to worry about putting filter jugs in or just everything. So in terms of your question around how did I learn about that? Multiple ways. mean, there's always just informal blog learning and podcasts and that kind of stuff. But

Jess Kismet (25:11)

Mm-hmm.

Cindy (25:27)

I read Nicole Bijlsma’s book, which was really helpful. And I did a healthy home material course with Zara da Cotta. So yeah, I've done bits and pieces that have really just, you you bring all of those things together and it helps inform the results.

Jess Kismet (25:45)

Mm-hmm.

Yep, yep, yep. It becomes that sort of, again, that hungry brain thing. You just sort of keep looking and keep finding new information to, particularly when it's your own home.

Cindy (25:56)

⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's been a really good, really good example of, of, of, yeah, delving down lots of different rabbit holes.

Jess Kismet (26:02)

Yeah, yep.

Yeah, yeah, that word keeps coming up. So you had your thermal performance, you designed it yourself, you had your thermal performance iterations, you optimized it to what you and your husband wanted the house to feel like and look like. You picked your builder and you were like, great, let's do this. So I understand you did have challenges on site due to your engineering and that was out of your control. So

Cindy (26:39)

Uhhh

Jess Kismet (26:40)

Tell us about what happened with that.

Cindy (26:43)

Yeah, so I think this was a result of, yeah, this kind of adage that you wait until your DA is approved to get your engineering done and then bang off you go. Now, we engage the engineer early in the process because, you know, I wanted to sanity check what I was designing and make sure that, you know, there's always multiple different ways that you can engineer.

a house and different things that you're doing. We've got a roof, we've got a two story house with a rooftop terrace. So that was always going to be a bit of an engineering challenge. So there's multiple different ways that that can occur. So I wanted to engage this engineer early so that we could talk about that and I could allow for any of those things, you know, through the design. And yeah, so I tried, I really tried.

But it was so hard to get any preliminary documentation during that process. was kind of like, well, we'll just wait until we are at the end and bang, there you go. There's your engineering plans. And so much of what we talked about was forgotten or there was details that were missed. So it was really frustrating. by that stage, it was like trying to stop a freight train.

So, you know, if I had have kind of gone, no, let's start again. You know, we probably only laid the slab, you know, last month. So it's hard. It's hard to know when to just keep pushing or when to just, you know, let things go. So it's been that has been a challenge. And one of the biggest things that held us up was we've got some concrete.

balconies on, obviously, the first level. And the way he engineered that was the concrete actually returns into the frame. So basically, that meant that the top level frame couldn't get finished. And therefore the roof couldn't go on until these concrete balconies had been formed up and laid. And then the

could get built on top of that. that's essentially what held us up the most because getting the details on those balconies was challenging. So yeah, that was months, that took months. And basically that meant that our frame was standing proud out in the rain for a very, very wet summer over 23, 24. And yeah, so lots of stuff.

Jess Kismet (29:14)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Cindy (29:40)

got very, very, very wet. We tried our best to cover it up, because the yellow tongue flooring had already been put on, but we had a stair void in there, so the whole thing couldn't get covered up. We tried, but the wind did just blow it straight off. know, it's just perfect storm of lots of things. So it was devastating. Every time it rained, it was just like, no! But yeah.

Jess Kismet (29:56)

Yeah, of course.

No.

Yeah.

I bet.

Cindy (30:10)

Yeah, so it was pretty hard.

Jess Kismet (30:12)

So did you, your yellow tongue flooring, were you able to get rid of that and replace it?

Cindy (30:18)

Some of it, Some of it. Yeah, so unfortunately, there were some frames that had already been built on it and it still was getting lots of rain and we couldn't get the roof on, blah, blah. So yeah, there was some that was sort of stuck under the frames. So when we did get the roof on and everything got wrapped beautifully.

Jess Kismet (30:20)

Yeah, because if you before you put the frames on, we.

Yeah.

Cindy (30:47)

And we've dried everything out. mean, I bought a moisture meter. So we've tested everything to the nth degree. And I've done mould testing, all sorts of things, but we made sure everything was dry. if this, yellow tongue flooring that had swelled and was just awful, that all got replaced, which is fabulous. But yeah, there's some of it that you can't, like it's just impossible. So

Jess Kismet (31:10)

That's good.

Yeah, yeah.

Cindy (31:15)

we're

at the point now where when the plaster is done, we're actually going to sand the top layer of the yellow tongue and just freshen it all right up because some of it didn't, the water didn't get all the way in. So yeah, we'll try and get as much off as we can and then lay the flooring.

Jess Kismet (31:30)

That's a good idea.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so what kinds of methods did you use to try and reduce the risk of the mould that had grown on the frames?

Cindy (31:48)

Yeah, and that was a really interesting process, I should say. And I'm just so grateful that the builder was open to the discussion because there's lots of builders that wouldn't be. And, you know, we had to be very realistic about what was possible in that process. mean, there was some Building biologists that I spoke to that were just like, ⁓

Oh, you're just going to have to replace everything. Knock it all down. Start again. I'm like, that's just not possible. This is the real world. This is the real world. And that's just not going to happen. So thanks for your help. And as much as I appreciate that, yeah. So no, that wasn't going to happen. Yeah, yeah. So we had to kind of mediate that a bit. Yeah, yeah. And that's

Jess Kismet (32:20)

That's not realistic or reasonable or cost effective.

Thanks for your help, bye.

Yeah, you get some real catastrophisers, I think. I mean, I mean, it's serious, but... Yeah.

Cindy (32:43)

That was the hard part because we were so nervous about it and it is a serious problem. So how do you find that middle ground, that realistic process that's actually going to work for you? And I think that's different for every single scenario. And so for us, we sat down, we talked about it and the builder kept saying,

Jess Kismet (32:50)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cindy (33:08)

It'll be okay. It'll dry out. And I'm like, no, it won't. It never will. could like, yeah, you can hit panic stations. And in retrospect, yes, it did dry out, but it definitely still needed help. So our medium ground was once it was all dried to moisture test everything, which we did. And then I purchased some

Jess Kismet (33:13)

No.

Mm.

Cindy (33:36)

sort of self testing kits, those little tongue things that you can buy. I tested multiple different areas. they, yeah, yeah, they're like little gel tongue things, which, that's a really good question. I you were gonna ask me that. I'll have to look it up and I'll send it to you. I will, I'll send it to you afterwards. Yeah, thank you.

Jess Kismet (33:46)

What, tapes?

Yep. Where'd you get them from?

All right, all right, and for anyone interested, I'll link it in the show notes when Cindy sends me the info.

Cindy (34:08)

I should have written that down. So, yeah, so then the agreement was that they would send as much as they could, like all the really bad spots, they'd send that back as much as they could. And then for everything else, we got a guy in to do fogging. So the entire frame got fogged just for that little bit of extra, you know.

comfort that we at least tried to get into those spots that we couldn't physically get to.

Jess Kismet (34:45)

Yep, so when you say you sanded it off, did you hand sand it? Is that what you said? You sanded it off? Yeah.

Cindy (34:54)

No, the boys did it. Yeah,

the team did it with the physical sander.

Jess Kismet (35:03)

like the tool, like the power tool sanders. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I've seen some people like literally with sandpaper or wire brushes getting into, you know, that sounds like not fun.

Cindy (35:05)

The machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I that's not fun. I tried, I tried

the whole scrubbing method. Like, you know, scrubbing with soap and all that sort of stuff. We had one, ceiling beam actually, that was one of the worst bits because it was under the rooftop terrace and that just kept getting hammered. And it's like, okay, once, once everything kind of got sealed up, I'm like, I'm going to test this beam. So I sectioned it off and I did, all right, I'm going to scrub it with

Jess Kismet (35:19)

Yeah, good on you.

Cindy (35:42)

just soapy water and I'm going to scrub that bit with bleach and I'm going to spray that with something else and we're going to sand that bit. And then I got the mould testers and we tested them all. yeah, the sanding and the bleach worked. The scrubbing not so much, I think, because you're actually scrubbing with water. So, you know, there's water in the soap, so that didn't work that well.

Jess Kismet (35:54)

Which one worked? Which one didn't work?

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Cindy (36:12)

And it was labour intensive. I was never going to do that for the whole frame. And what was the other one? Yeah, the spray that we tried. Yeah, that didn't really work either.

Jess Kismet (36:17)

No.

Interesting, interesting. So the marketing companies don't necessarily tell the truth on their mould products. Is that what you're putting words in your mouth there.

Cindy (36:39)

Diplomatically? No. look. Yeah, you totally.

look, every situation is different. And I truly do believe that every situation is different and every piece of timber is different. That's the other point I should make, actually. Post-COVID, the actual timber stock that we were getting was very different. Like we, when we put the frame up,

within a couple of weeks, you know, there'd be one stud that would be all black and awful and the next stud would be fine. So the actual timber stock itself, yeah, was really different.

Jess Kismet (37:26)

Wow, so you ordered some of your timber before COVID and some of it after? Is that what you mean? Or like after it, is there a...

Cindy (37:32)

No, no, I think it was...

Well, I think there was a big discussion, you know, during COVID and post COVID about the availability of timber and, you know, was a lot of fast growing timbers that were coming through and there was still a lot of older stock that had been kind of hanging around. So I think it just got all, mixed up together and you kind of, the quality of what we were getting was just vastly different, but in the same batch.

Jess Kismet (37:42)

Mm.

Mmm.

Cindy (38:05)

So it's definitely better now. I've been looking at different builds that have been happening now. It's same timber, but yeah, the quality of it's definitely changed. It's much better now.

Jess Kismet (38:20)

Interesting. That's very interesting. So that is just so frustrating that you put so much work and effort and time into making sure your healthy, energy efficient home was going to be just right. and then, you even had the right builder who was on board with everything you wanted and all of these things were going right. And then you still had delays. And that is something that you just couldn't have foreseen.

Cindy (38:30)

You

I know.

No? Yep.

Nethis law.

Yep. Yep.

Jess Kismet (38:51)

So

the engineering, you said that they wrapped the concrete, I'm not quite sure what you mean, but they somehow tied the concrete back into the frame, however, whatever they decided to do there. Was there a way that that could have been done differently to speed up the process that you learned about afterwards or?

Cindy (39:01)

Mm.

Yeah, I think if we, because we had two choices sort of throughout the process and we could have done it in concrete and we could have done it in, you know, lightweight timber framing. And I think if we had done it in the timber framing, yeah, that process would have been a lot smoother. But, you know, the concrete does provide a lot more structural integrity.

Jess Kismet (39:20)

Okay.

Cindy (39:33)

We're building on sand, so there's lots of reasons why the concrete is good. And I think we could have avoided that sort of tie-in to the frame if we had some concrete posts in different places, that kind of thing. But that's just...

Jess Kismet (39:36)

Mm-hmm.

So was it cantilevered

Is your...

Cindy (39:58)

No, there's

kind of hard to explain. it's kind of cantilevered out off the base frame. So if this is the this is the external wall of underneath. Yeah, it's kind of cantilevered. There is there is corner posts. But yeah, it the entirety of that weight needed to sit on something on the base back here. So it's been it's sat on that external frame.

Jess Kismet (40:06)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Cindy (40:27)

And because our top frame was directly above that, it wasn't set back. It was directly above that wall. Yeah, we basically had to wait until that concrete was in and then we can put that external wall on top. So I guess lesson learned, step that external wall back a bit and it probably would have been fine.

Jess Kismet (40:32)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm. So do you know what, was it just a matter of like in terms of how long it took the engineer to get back to you? Was that a workflow issue on their part or was that a, were they waiting for something or was it, you know what happened?

Cindy (41:05)

Yeah, yeah. look, he's a very clever engineer and he's like, this house is not going to move ever. It's been very, very solidly built. So I'm grateful for that. I am grateful for that. the process, yeah, the process had some issues. So the communication and I think the documentation process that he was following at the time.

Jess Kismet (41:10)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Better not.

Yeah.

Cindy (41:35)

was definitely lacking and they're just so busy. We don't have enough engineers up here. They are absolutely flat-strap. So, you know, it's hard. It's hard for them, it's hard for us because anyone that needs details out of them, you've got to wait. So, yeah, it's just not a perfect world.

Jess Kismet (41:41)

Yeah.

Yeah.

you

Yep. And yeah, so you said that there was details forgotten and things like that. So the whole record keeping thing was a bit lax at the time, probably due to being super, super busy. Yeah. Okay.

Cindy (42:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

busyness. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you

know, when you're that busy, you're trying out different things, you know, utilising different resources or trying to outsource certain things or you there's you trying different stuff and yeah, it doesn't always work.

Jess Kismet (42:28)

Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, like you said, we're only human, all people. Sometimes things do just fall over a little bit.

Cindy (42:32)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think you've got to pick your battles. I was saying, it's like a freight train when it gets to that stage. And it's like, well, you've got to decide whether this is something you can work around and keep moving forward or whether it really is a game changer and you need to stop and rethink.

Jess Kismet (42:39)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

So in terms of that process, is there anything you would advise other people to do instead of what you did? I mean, you talked about your engineering, getting that before DA approval. What sort of knock-on effect would that have had? you know, what would you tell other people to do?

Cindy (43:17)

think if I and I will, we do this custom process again, I would engage an engineer, consultative engineer that would provide preliminary documentation during that design phase. So once I had a pretty solid kind of concept, I would find an engineer that could give me sort of that preliminary documentation with

a few different options of how to do certain things. Because it does, it changes the way that you design the house depending on certain choices that you make. And I think if those things are decided and allowed for that early, it just means that the whole process can be a lot smoother.

Jess Kismet (43:59)

Mm.

Yep.

Yeah, so do you have what, what, could you give us an example? So what design changes did your engineering effect that you had to amend?

Cindy (44:31)

Okay, a good example would be the floor joists. So for, you know, obviously the mid floor, we put in a HRV system. So that needed 100 mm clearance for the duct work to run through and we wanted for I think it was in our floor. So

I'd allowed for that in the design. And we'd spoken about that, you know, during the engineering. And we talked about using, you know, long span timbers with the webbing and that kind of stuff to allow for that to flow through really easily. And then all of a sudden they became LVLs and you know, there's these solid kind of 300 timber beams.

Jess Kismet (45:26)

Bye.

Cindy (45:30)

running through the house that you can't drill 100 mm sections in. So then you have to decide, well, what am I going to do with these, with all these duct work? Like where's that going to go? Are we going to drop the ceiling by, you know, 100, 150 mm to allow for that, which then has an impact on the window heights and all sorts of different things. Like it's a big flow on effect.

Jess Kismet (45:36)

All right.

Cindy (45:57)

Or do you find, is there another way that we can work around this? you know, stuff like that.

Jess Kismet (45:58)

well.

And did you end up dropping your ceiling or did you end up going back to like changing your floor structure?

Cindy (46:10)

No, we didn't. The floor stayed the way it was. So we've got the we've got the LVLs. We were very creative in where we put the HRV system. So it actually went from being downstairs in the laundry to upstairs in the storeroom. And then we ran we're running the duct work mainly all the way up into the ceiling across the top level.

Jess Kismet (46:14)

say.

Cindy (46:38)

and then down through some cavities where we could find space into the rooms where it needs to and then downstairs we do have a little kind of roof section down along the side of sort of a lounge dining guest room area. So we've actually put insulation sort of in the ceiling joist but also in the roof, under the roof sheeting.

so that you've got an insulated cavity in that roof and we run the duct work through there. So I checked all of that with the HRV engineers to make sure that they were okay with that because it's a bit different. So yeah, they're all cool. So I'm like, yeah, let's just do that.

Jess Kismet (47:19)

Yep.

And that's much better than changing window heights and faffing around with all of that. Wow.

Cindy (47:29)

Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. So, you know, it

wasn't ideal, but we found a workaround and yeah, that's just what you work with.

Jess Kismet (47:37)

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

So your professional career, Cindy, you've gone down the thermal assessor route and you started your Building Design Diploma So you're working for other people doing thermal assessing. What would you, how has this experience affected your perspective on building design and what would you advise your clients?

Cindy (48:04)

Take your time. actually, it's such an exciting process, think, designing and building your own home and it's filled with anxiety and all that sort of thing as well. And you want to get it started and get it done as quickly as possible. It always takes longer than you expect. And that's not just the construction phase. I think if you actually take the time during that design phase to really make sure that

this home is going to be what you want it to be, but also as good as it can be in terms of energy efficiency and that kind of stuff, you know, that pays dividends down the track. So surrounding yourself with the right people during that design phase, yeah, it's really important, really, really important. to take your time with that and engage people and ask questions and

test things out and just take your time until you're really comfortable with what you're actually looking at.

Jess Kismet (49:10)

think that's absolutely crucial. What you said about, you know, taking your time and getting the right people around you because you don't know what you don't know. And so as you start to uncover these different things, all of a sudden, you're, you're learning more and more as you go along the process and then getting the right people, the right builder, the right energy assessor, the right products, the right suppliers, the right, you know, the right everything, the right installers, the right trades in order to

get your sort of dream realised in the way you envisage it. It's so important and you know not to just drink the Kool-Aid, is that the right expression? know not to just believe what everybody tells you or what Joe Bloggs tells you about how things should be done or how it's always been done. Always sort of listen to that inner voice and follow it, lean into the questions.

Cindy (49:51)

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Yep. Yep.

Yes, absolutely. you know, skill yourself up. And not everybody's got time to do that and all the inkling to do that. But, you know, just having a little bit of knowledge about how the process works and just gives you that comfort in being able to ask the questions that you should be asking. And yeah, just not not being spoon fed what.

Jess Kismet (50:14)

Mm.

Mm.

Cindy (50:31)

everybody wants you to believe because that's just the easier way for them to do it, you know. There's a lot of stuff that we have challenged our team on in this process, but they've been eating it up. They've been great. They love learning new things and doing things differently. So I'm very grateful for that. But not everybody has that kind of outlook and just pushes back on things that are different and, that's too hard, you know. So, yeah.

Jess Kismet (50:37)

Mm.

Cindy (51:01)

Yeah, just needing to know that.

Jess Kismet (51:01)

Yeah, yeah, I'm

quite emphatic. Yeah, I'm quite emphatic with anyone I speak to who's new to this process. One of the sort of most sort of the strongest piece of advice I give apart from installing everything correctly and doing all that sort of product research is make sure that your builder is willing and ready, willing and able to learn.

Cindy (51:18)

Yeah.

Yep,

yeah for sure.

Jess Kismet (51:27)

If they don't already understand,

they have to be ready, willing and able. Otherwise you are opening yourself up to so much unnecessary stress and literally being being being your own site supervisor. Yeah, I'm sure you have. So what is one of the features in your home that you are most proud of or most looking forward to to experiencing?

Cindy (51:34)

Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

Which I have been, I've been on site pretty regularly.

There are so many, there are so many things. We are currently living in a rental that, you know, it's big and all that sort of stuff, but it is designed so badly. there's one wall that just literally fills up with water every time it rains. It's so hot. Like we're battling this house every single day just to be comfortable. And so I think I'm...

Jess Kismet (52:20)

What do mean the wall fills up with water?

Cindy (52:23)

it's a long story, but there's a weep hole. Yeah, there's a side, it kind of sits on a bit of a hill and the side at the top of the hill, they've put in a concrete path that actually pretty much overlaps the weep hole in the brick. So when it rains and that concrete all floods, all that water just goes straight into the wall and it doesn't come back out again.

Jess Kismet (52:25)

That sounds awful.

⁓ my goodness.

⁓ wow. wow. That sounds yucky.

Cindy (52:53)

You'd love it. You'd love it. Come and test for all the mode.

It's pretty horrible. You know, we're just every day we're like, ⁓ we won't have to do this when we're in the new house, you know, everything's just going to be easier. And yeah, we feel like we're fighting this house constantly just to stay comfortable and it's exhausting. It's exhausting. So I think I am most proud about the fact that we have been so conscious in everything we've done.

Jess Kismet (53:09)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cindy (53:28)

in this house, whether that be the materiality that we've chosen, the way that the house has been designed, the orientation, the functionality of it, the colors that we've chosen. Everything's designed to be calming and rejuvenating and all the electricals we've been really conscious about, that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, we're very conscious of EMF exposure.

We've done all sorts of things to reduce that. you know, yeah, we're really proud of all of the things that we've done to, yeah, hopefully for this to be a real haven. That's what we're trying to achieve. So we'll see.

Jess Kismet (54:14)

that sounds really, really nice. You mentioned EMFs. haven't actually, this wasn't part of my questions, but I am going to ask you to elaborate. We're at the end of our conversation, but let's just elaborate a little bit on, just give us a couple of examples of things you've done, please, if you wouldn't mind.

Cindy (54:16)

you

I knew you would.

Yeah, sure, sure.

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, it was a it was actually a last minute decision to do this. But again, EMFs I'm very sensitive to as a migraine sufferer. I wanted to eliminate those as much as possible in the house. So we have been very conscious about where power points are in our house. We've been very

with our electricians who have been amazing about where we wanted any 240 volt lines to be running like no lines behind the beds, away from the middle of the bedrooms as much as possible. they've been very, like we mapped out where all the cabling was gonna go before they even started. they were really great. And then in terms of, we also wanted

smart home capabilities. I did not want Wi-Fi all through my house to allow for that. So we actually made the decision to invest in hard wiring, smart home stuff. So we've got a C bus system running in the house, which basically means all of our lighting runs off C bus, which yeah, just reduces the dirty electricity in the house. And we've got Wi-Fi.

Points that we can turn off at night. So we've got little switches that can turn things off. So at night we press one button and all the all the Wi-Fi turns off. All the smart home stuff still hardwired. So that's still available. So yeah, we've been really lucky in finding a very, very good team. We've got a smart home designer that I came across from Coffs Harbour who's been absolutely brilliant.

and our electricians have been amazing. So yeah, we've been very lucky.

Jess Kismet (56:32)

Wow, it sounds like you have been really lucky with your team.

Cindy (56:35)

Yeah, they've been great.

Jess Kismet (56:36)

That's so great. Yeah, awesome. All right. I won't put you through any more of any more questions except for one. My last final question is what is the one thing that you want people to know?

Cindy (57:13)

I think one of the things that I would love people to know is that the realm of energy efficient, thermally comfortable, healthy homes doesn't just belong to those that have a bigger budget that can follow an architecturally designed, custom built kind of process. know, there seems to be that idea out there that that's the realm that this kind of sits within.

It's just not true. think you can have all of those things and you should have all of those things, regardless of which pathway you follow. And in particular, you know, lots of people go for the off the shelf plans with, you know, a volume builder because it's seemingly cheaper or an easier process. And which, you know, it can be, but

you've really got to know what you're asking for and what you should be specifying in that whole process before you sign on the deadline for that building contract. Because once you sign that building contract, all of those specifications are locked in. Things like the insulation that's in your walls or the color of your cladding. think all of those kind of things have such an impact on your long term thermal comfort in your home. So...

I just, really want people to know that they have the power to make those choices and to ask for those things. And the way that they know what they're asking for is by engaging an energy efficiency consultant early, you know, upfront, before you sign a building contract, when you're, you know, even just thinking about the idea, you know, a good energy efficiency consultant can tell you,

if the plan that you've fallen in love with is actually going to work on your site or if you've got a floor plan that you love and you haven't found a site yet what kind of orientation you should be looking for you know all of those things they they can really help you so yeah that's that's the one thing i'd like people to really know

And there's so many, that volume build process, there's so often it's just not part of that conversation. So, and in an ideal world, it really will be, and I'm hoping that the future is like that, but up until that point, it's consumer demand.

the way that things change way quicker than legislation. So if people know what they are asking for, then things will change for the better. I've seen so many people get so excited about their homes and have that volume built. it's a beautiful looking home and they move into it and it's just unlivable. They literally can't live in these houses. So, you know.

you spend the time upfront actually thinking about those things and the way you orient a house doesn't cost you anymore, know, it's there's things that are not expensive that will really pay dividends in the long-term livability of your house.

If your builder isn't amenable to that, then you have the power as the customer to go and engage someone independently and have someone have a look at that combination of site and plan and specifications for you. You have the power.

Obviously we need more housing and that needs to be done quickly. But yeah, you don't want to build bad houses just because it needs to be done quickly.

Jess Kismet (1:01:07)

Yeah, all right. Well, thank you very much, Cindy, for joining me today and answering all my questions and having a lovely chat with me. If anyone wants to follow... Good, good. If anyone wants to follow Cindy and Shane's journey, can find them on Instagram at @shindysbeachouse_build Cindy is really good at documenting all of their ups and downs, highs and lows and all the exciting details on the project. I hope you get in by Easter as you are planning to, hoping to, my fingers across for you. And I'm looking forward to seeing the final reveal.

Cindy (1:01:14)

Thank you for having me. It's been lovely.

Cindy (1:01:43)

Yeah, me too, me too. I will be happily sharing that when it happens.

Jess Kismet (1:01:50)

Very exciting. Cool. All right. Well, thanks, Cindy.

Cindy (1:01:54)

Thanks so much, Jess.

Jess Kismet

Okay, bye.