#8 - Learning, Leading, and Healthy Homes with Luke Callery

Jess Kismet (00:00)

Hello and welcome to the Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. My guest today is Luke Callery. Luke Callery is the driving force behind Callery Building, An Adelaide building company with a growing reputation for their dedication to high quality craftsmanship. I met Luke in April 2023.

when he asked me to come and do his very first blower door test on a renovation job he and his team were undertaking. As I understand it, this was the beginning of a fast and steep learning curve that Callery Building has undertaken in the two years since. They've relocated to a fancy new office. Luke has started a podcast with good mate, Dean Backman of Backman Building. They've grown their team. Luke has grown his beard.

And as a team, they have embarked on a learning journey that is enabling them to be more successful in their business and deliver more comfortable, healthy homes to their Adelaide customers. I've been so happy to watch Luke go from strength to strength over the last couple of years. And I've got him on here to talk about where he's come from and where he's going next. So welcome to the show, Luke.

Luke Callery (00:59)

thanks for having me, Jess. That is one hell of an intro. I think I'm going to have to step up my game on introductions for the Build Insight podcast now.

Jess Kismet (01:02)

You

I do my best. So Luke, tell us, Callery building. You've grown so much over the past couple of years, but before I met you, that little test, that like, that was intertwined with getting involved with the Elevate program all around about that same time, was it?

Luke Callery (01:31)

Yeah probably a little bit. So I've been, I've been in that for a little while. So, those that don't know, which is probably majority. so Elevate is a, like a coaching platform through live life build. so builders coaching for builders around the country. I was fortunate enough to meet some incredible builders in that platform that were sort of getting into the healthy home, high performance space and through networking with those guys. Once I started to do my own research into what they were doing, it was head first down the rabbit hole. As you know, everybody gets in that same whirlwind and you just, can't ever look back.

Jess Kismet (02:09)

So take us back before that. You did your carpentry apprenticeship. did like, tell us what led you up to that point.

Luke Callery (02:17)

Yeah, so I, like most builders, was fortunate enough to do a carpentry apprenticeship, always had an absolute passion for building. I knew from a very, very young age that that was all I wanted to do. It sort of, my journey, I got thrown into running my own business incredibly early. Probably, I kind of got left without a job after my apprenticeship and it was a weird time in the industry where not really, or most builders actually didn't want to hire direct employees. It was odd and they just wanted...

the carpenter to go and get an ABN and just work as a subcontractor. Then that way they could just float and hire them on whenever they needed. They did it dodgy enough that they obviously wouldn't need to then worry about paying holidays or sick leave, superannuation, all that sort of stuff that you should get anyway. So yeah, I had a pretty steep learning curve really early with needing to run a business. And then, yeah, it just progressed and progressed over the years running a contract carpentry business.

Got my builder's license back in 2017. And then yeah, just started doing our own custom projects. And its, yeah, just completely snowballed from there.

Jess Kismet (03:23)

So you, your the, your apprenticeship, you had no experience with the energy efficiency stuff.

Luke Callery (03:30)

Nah, so we, I grew up out in the country. I was born and raised in Riverton. If everyone knows where that is on the way out towards Clare. And I guess with the like small country towns, you don't have like a massive array of trades that are lining up to do every task. So with the style of projects that we did, it was basically we were hands-on for everything. would do all of the demolition. We'd do the site set out. We wouldn't dig the footings ourselves. We still got a machine for that. We would do.

Concrete and framing roofing, cladding, tiling, like absolutely everything. So I guess it was the, what you were doing with those projects you were so busy. You didn't really have time or it was that long ago that maybe, there wasn't that sort of movement in South Australia that no one out that way knew about it. They were just building, you know, the way that they were taught the best, the best of their knowledge at the time. so yeah, it was really, it wasn't until, geez, it would have been like,

2021, 2022, really, before I started to discover like all of these better building practices. Once I'd branched out and wanted to educate myself better, not necessarily in the high performance space, but it was wanting to educate myself how to run a building company better through the Live Life Build platform that once I started to, or met all these other builders from around the country, went to the live events and started networking and speaking with those guys that that's when I really found the passion for it. it's,

I don't know, those that have had that opportunity will understand how addictive it is. But it's just, yeah, there's definitely no looking back.

Jess Kismet (05:07)

Yeah, definitely not. So you got your Builder's License in 2017, you joined a Live Life Build Elevate program a few years later. How did you actually find the Elevate program?

Luke Callery (05:19)

I'd actually started out with a different builders coach. It was kind of, it was a bit of a weird setup. again, there's some successful builders that have come out of it, but that platform in particular to me, it felt more of a competition and it was more about who could raise the biggest revenue, who was hitting the biggest targets, all that sort of stuff. wasn't more, like it was more of a competition, whereas...

I was sort of halfway through my first 12 months with, those guys. And I started seeing the marketing. I reckon it was just through Facebook and Instagram, marketing from Duane and Amelia that, once they had promoted that, you know, Amelia is an architect, Dwayne is a builder. They were running this platform. It was a lot more relatable that they were in the trenches actually doing the, those roles themselves. They had the, the, we'll call it an on tools experience.

whereas the, the other platform I was in, they were, they were just business people. They had never actually been a builder themselves. So the platform, it was just so much more relatable. and I just got sick of the competition. remember going to one specific event with them one year and, there was a couple of people had raised an interesting topic and sort of set a few things that they'd done well. And there was just other people that came and spoke over top of them that said, you know, well, that's, you know, you're, you're at that level, but you know, we've done this better.

It was just, there was no encouragement and it was, it was pretty, it was a bit depressing to be honest with you. Um, so yeah, ended up committing to Live Life Build at the same time. Cause these, most of these platforms are a minimum 12 month membership. Um, so I just, I knew I was struggling a little bit with understanding the numbers and wanting to find some better systems. So committed at the time to continue to pay the six months with the other platform as well as jump on board with Life Life Build So was, it was a hell of a commitment, but

It was how quickly I got involved with that platform. Yeah, things really started to turn around very quickly.

Jess Kismet (07:22)

Yeah, I remember when I first found out, because I knew Amelia through Undercover Architect. I didn't know she had this Live Life Build business. And I think I saw it through an email or social media or something. And I went and had a look at it and I was just blown away. I was just blown away by how supportive and comprehensive even just the YouTube channel is like, let alone being inside that program.

Luke Callery (07:27)

Yeah, true.

Yep.

Yep.

Jess Kismet (07:50)

So if you're a builder, if you're listening and you are a builder and you're running your own building company and you would like some mentoring and some other builders in the same game who can support you, I highly, highly recommend you go and have a look at the Live Life Build website. It's, I believe is an absolute game changer for mental health, financial stability, marriages, families, it just...

getting a handle on how to run a company. Because you come out of your apprenticeship and this must happen to 99.99 % of apprentices everywhere and not just apprentices, anyone who is good at their craft, who then goes into business, you're not taught how to run a business when you're doing your trade. There's just no, I think in your builder's license, there might be a few little subjects around.

around running a business, but you're sort of left on your own. You get an ABN and then what? I just, in my personal experience, it's quite a lonely place.

Luke Callery (08:57)

Yeah, I think there's a big missing link between, so there obviously are some business running things that you get taught through your builder's license. So you obviously need certificate four in building construction to get your builder's license. There's a few things that they do teach you in there, but it's more, it's understanding your financials. Like knowing your numbers is, it's an absolute non-negotiable. If you don't know your numbers, it's the quickest way to go straight out the back door.

which unfortunately there's no mandatory requirements to have proper qualifications to be able to have those skills. yeah, I think it's as much as I really like to plug Live Life Build because they have genuinely transformed my life. Like where I was two years ago in business to where I am now, it is literally night and day, chalk and cheese, whichever way you want to put it. But even if it's not Live Life Build, probably the best advice I can give you is to explore any coaching platform.

If you're not continuing to better educate yourself, you are gonna get left behind far too quickly, or you're not even gonna get a chance to get left behind because you're gonna fail straight away anyway.

Jess Kismet (10:04)

So Luke, what is the core philosophy or mission behind Callery Building

Luke Callery (10:09)

Great question. I've been trying to teach our young guys this at the moment actually. So we've got a staff questionnaire that I get the guys to fill out. I try and do it once every quarter just to understand what their goals are, whether they understand their job roles, is there anything we can improve? One of the questions in there is, do you know what Building stands for? Do you understand or do you know what our mission statement is? And I'll try and refer them if they don't know it to say, go on Instagram, it's on the bio or something like that. So I try and stick by 

Building, beautiful and comfortable homes with a focus on sustainability and energy efficiency.

 It might sound a bit corny to some people, but essentially without having a big long dot pointed list of what I believe in and what I want to achieve. That's it. so yeah, I guess it's just wanting to, cause we do a lot of like our type of projects. I don't know whether this was going to lead into another question that you've got down the track, but our type of projects majority of is renovations, retrofits, extensions, that sort of thing. So.

I think there's a huge missing link between so high performance, high performance building. feel most people think of it in implementing Passivhaus and building new homes where there is a big opportunity or also a big missing link that existing homes are missing out. Like you've got these leaky boxes that are unhealthy homes, energy consuming monsters that,

I guess our passion is trying to retrofit these existing homes and resources to be as comfortable and energy efficient as possible. hopefully I didn't really run too much there, that's yeah, in a brief that's.

Jess Kismet (11:51)

That's good answer. And it does actually move on like flow onto my next question about the types of projects you specialize in. So you specialize in renovations and additions. I've done a few blower door tests for you now. And you had one project in particular where they had like a $3,000 quarterly energy bill or something in the old.

Luke Callery (12:12)

Yeah. Yeah. So that, that's coming up soon. Actually. We're probably about two

months away from doing a final blow door test on that to see what it comes down to. But I think that was, do you remember what that was? It was like 18.9 or 19 point something. was, yeah, it was, it was phenomenal. But yeah, their, average quarterly power bill. I think it was just over $3,000 a quarter. And I mean, they had

Jess Kismet (12:22)

Awesome.

Oh, was, yeah, was 19. I think it was 19 air changes.

Luke Callery (12:36)

Obviously when you've got it, it was a pretty big house. was 915 cubic meters was the volume or something. Air leaks everywhere. So middle of summer, just.

Jess Kismet (12:40)

Yeah, yeah it was huge.

They even had plants growing into the windows. I've got a photo of like... Ivy.

Luke Callery (12:50)

forgot about that. There was an ivy plant that was literally growing through the window. But yeah, when you've got

a home that's that big and you've got air conditioning in the middle of summer, obviously it can get pretty stinking hot here. Yeah, it's just running that flat out. And same in the winter, they didn't really have like a decent heating source as well. And to clarify as well, so 3000 bucks a quarter was just for electricity. They also have on top of that,

they don't anymore. We're removing, well, actually we still do have gas connected to the property. They didn't want to get rid of the gas pour heater. And for some silly reason, we, they wanted to put in for the, for the aesthetics of it. They wanted to put in a gas heater as well, even though they're probably never going to need to run it because they're going to turn it on and run it for 10 minutes. The house is probably going to overheat. so yeah, on top of that, so their winter heating, had

Jess Kismet (13:37)

Yeah.

Yeah, actual.

Luke Callery (13:47)

two gas heaters inside that they would run flat out as well, as well as heating the pool all year round. So $3,000 a quarter was just on electricity. I don't know what the stats were on the gas bill as well, but I can imagine that that wasn't too far behind it.

Jess Kismet (14:01)

Wow. And then when you took down all the plasterboard and everything upstairs, what did you find?

Luke Callery (14:07)

Um, nothing. So no insulation whatsoever. I think there was, there was a, out of like, I don't know the entire wall area, there was maybe 20 % of it that had a few random insulation bats that were thrown in it. There was nothing in the roof at all. There wasn't even like any old insulation blanket on the roof as well. So it had a, um, it was a second story that got added onto the place back in about, I think it was about 1987 ish

Jess Kismet (14:09)

Not much.

Luke Callery (14:39)

87-ish, somewhere like that. don't know, the blanket probably wasn't around back then actually, like Anticon blanket. But anyway, there was no insulation, there was no ceiling void, it had a raked ceiling that had no ceiling void, windows that leaked like a sieve, all the cool stuff.

Jess Kismet (14:43)

Mm.

Mm-hmm. And I remember moving on that one. moved the, no, it had already been moved, sorry, the dishwasher. And there was a hole this big in the floor where the plumbing was.

Luke Callery (15:05)

yeah.

Like a small human could have fit under the hole in the floor. yeah, yeah, yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (15:10)

Yeah, or a very large rodent, maybe.

Yeah, so there's all these kinds of gaps and cracks that appear in old homes that, this one was hidden, this large hole underneath the dishwasher and you've got ivy growing in the windows and, you know, all sorts of holes and things that contribute to that $3,000 a quarter heating bill. Like, it's just, so yeah, we have to report back.

Luke Callery (15:35)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Jess Kismet (15:41)

what the blower door test result might actually be

might have been done by the time this podcast is actually released. So we might even be able to report the final result. That'd be good.

Luke Callery (15:46)

Possibly, possibly.

Yeah.

It's been a, it's been a very interesting project because it was kind of one of those. I don't like to say it was a project that we could test a lot of things on because it was, everything that I was super passionate about. managed to get the homeowners, but they actually had a, the, same idea of the home that, the main, the main reason that the project came about was the second story was where the master suite was. And it was just, it was literally like an oven up there.

they've got like a public reserve across the road as well, that people go walking through there early in the morning and they could literally hear people coming through the gate, whispering their conversations, but they could hear it clear as day upstairs in their master suite as well. they wanted, bigger insulation. They wanted way more thermal comfort. They wanted it to be more energy efficient. so it was, it was the right type of project to suggest implementing a lot more of these high performance building details.

bigger wall frames, ventilated cavities everywhere, higher heel heights on trusses so we can get insulation where it needed to be. We had a pretty big mission to make it as airtight as possible. it's the first project that we've actually installed a ducted heat recovery ventilation system on. So I'm incredibly excited to see how this house actually does perform and also to get yourself back out there Jess and see what the numbers actually come to.

Jess Kismet (17:19)

And how have you found the heat recovery ventilator, like the installation and designing around one? Because you can't just throw a ducted heat recovery system on the back end of a project. So you had to incorporate that in.

Luke Callery (17:32)

No, no, you can't. So it was a little bit tricky. guess the biggest advantage with it was having the second story, we still had where most of the duct work was going was in the condition space. Not like where if it was just a giant single story retrofit where all the duct work would have to go above the insulation layer and you need, know, whilst you can insulate duct work, you want to try and reduce that to an absolute minimum if you can, because it's never going to be as

Jess Kismet (17:55)

Mm.

Luke Callery (18:03)

it's never going to perform at its peak performance. If, if it is, you know, above that layer, you want to keep that as, as warm or as cool as possible in whatever condition it is. we did have a few ducts for that, that once it went outside of the second story footprint, we had to insulate the last part of them. but yeah, was, thankfully we had that floor frame that we could, run most of it inside of. But again, it was just such a learning experience for everyone because it's the first time that the cabinet makers have ever had to mold a cupboard around a unit and all the duck work coming through. So it's been a pleasant surprise actually to explain the most minor detail about what it is to every trade that comes on site. And as soon as you mention anything about it, you can just see the cogs start ticking over in their brain and they just, they get hooked on it. It's really refreshing actually to hear how open everyone is into learning what it is and how it's actually gonna make the house perform better.

Jess Kismet (19:00)

Yeah, I find the same thing if I've got trades on site who've never seen a blower door test before. They're immediately interested. They want to hang around. They want to find leaks.

Luke Callery (19:07)

Yeah. Well,

I guess that's the main reason why every blow door test, as you know, that we've done so far, we've got most of our team there. So anytime we get a new team member, it's more, it's getting, getting our, our in-house staff members and carpenters to actually be able to understand why we're doing all of these airtight details while we're spending more time on wrapping it, while we're doing all these things. If they see it firsthand on what a blower door test is and what you're trying to achieve.

Well then straight away, they're gonna know when they're going around and there's a hole in the wrap. shit, we gotta make sure we take that up because otherwise we're gonna do the blower door test and Luke's gonna kill us because there's fucking holes everywhere. shit, my bad, am I allowed to swear Sorry. Beep. But yeah, no, it's good to, I guess, yeah, an encouragement for anyone that's thinking of doing it. Don't leave your team out. it's, you can't have all that information trapped in your own head because you can't just expect that.

Jess Kismet (19:46)

Of course.

Luke Callery (20:04)

You're going to learn it and everyone else is going to read your mind and have the same mission that you are. You're going to make sure that you're educating the rest of your team while you're going through that journey as well.

Jess Kismet (20:13)

Absolutely. You've got to understand why not the what. The why is always more important. So I will put a link in the show notes for to give out some more information on blower door testing, what exactly blow-door testing is and also on heat recovery ventilation. These are both or a blower door test just briefly is a way to quantify how much air is leaking out of a house that shouldn't be. And heat recovery ventilation is a way to ventilate a home without having to open up doors and windows.

Luke Callery (20:15)

Yeah. Yep.

Jess Kismet (20:43)

So this isn't a high performance sort of discussion necessarily. So we won't go into that right now, but I will leave a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to learn more about those two things. And you can go down your own little rabbit hole if you wish. Okay. So clients, how do you, your clientele must have changed over the last couple of years, going from standard builds to more energy efficient, healthy.

Luke Callery (20:55)

Good luck.

Jess Kismet (21:10)

How do you balance client expectations and cost with creating these healthier, more energy efficient homes? Big question.

Luke Callery (21:19)

Wow, that's a good question. Definitely the

clientele has definitely changed. And I think that's a part of we try and have a pretty heavy social media footprint. That was the idea of also creating with Dean as well, the Build Insite platform is to show or showcase our learnings, like put out there that we're not just builders. We're actually trying to educate ourselves and stay ahead of the game and not even not even keep up with the standard, but keep ahead of the standard. Once that information gets out there, you would be surprised, well, not you, because I know that you're doing the same, but most people, you'd be very surprised at how many people actually latch onto that. It was a pretty bizarre moment, about, I think the first one was nearly 12 months ago that, so we've got a preliminary questionnaire that we always get potential clients to fill out as well.

The very first question is, how did you hear about us? And one day I opened up the questionnaire and it said, Build Insite And I went, holy shit, people are actually watching this stuff and they're actually, taking the time to, so there's, think gone are the days where a client is just, I mean, there's still clients out there that are uneducated and will just want the cheapest house possible, but there are so many homeowners out there now that are educating themselves that.

Jess Kismet (22:30)

I'm

Luke Callery (22:46)

If you're not staying ahead of the game yourself, if you've got a client that comes to you that's more knowledge or more knowledgeable, is that a word about energy efficiency, sustainability and all that sort of stuff. If the client's educating you, you're doing something wrong. So yeah, I guess it's been, you definitely gonna lose their business. And I guess that's where it's been quite pleasing to.

Jess Kismet (23:05)

You're probably going to lose their business if they're educating you.

Luke Callery (23:13)

knock back a heap of work, like be quite selective with our client base that if a client is just completely driven by the dollar and they're not interested in getting rid of gas, electrifying homes, wanting to beef up insulation, using better quality products, like we're, if it doesn't align with our values now, we'll quite happily say no.

Jess Kismet (23:37)

Mm-hmm.

Luke Callery (23:38)

Balancing expectations is a big one where it comes down to, like it's open communication. If you set the expectation early and tell the homeowner, I guess, what your values are as a building company or as a business, what you want to achieve out of that project, the client will nine times out of 10, they will go on that ride and you would have...

You would have already set that expectation that they know what they're to get. If you let them tell you the story exactly what they want, you're starting behind the eight ball. So, I guess through the whole process is just keep the communication line open, whether it's like emails, phone calls, site meetings. That's where we've definitely evolved the business over the last few years is site investigations. Spending a lot of time on site to actually, especially with like

pretty involved renovation, spending that time to go out and investigate the existing house to see what you can do better. guess that it just reassures the homeowner that like if you spend the time on it in the pre-construction, they know what they're get. there's no guessing then thinking, I how they're actually gonna go around, know, tying in that area or how are they gonna go about, you know, removing that section and replacing that? Like if you go out there,

spend the time investigating it and walk them through that, then document it in your specifications for your contract. There are no, there's no unknowns. There's no second guessing, eliminate variations because my God, is there this horrible misconception out there from not all homeowners, but a lot of homeowners that builders make all their money out of variations. I can tell you right now that we've got a couple of jobs at the moment that weren't designed like.

Jess Kismet (25:24)

Thank

Luke Callery (25:28)

that the design was already done before we got brought onto the project. And then we've had to come along and mold the project as best as we can to suit the client's actual wants and needs because it was just done by, you know, a drafty or whatever. And that's lacking so much detail. The variations that have come up, they are the biggest fricking headache. All they do is piss everyone off, hold up the process.

Jess Kismet (25:51)

You

Luke Callery (25:53)

make it stressful for the homeowner because you're constantly at them going, need the information and there's trades that are going, we want to start, but you haven't got a signed variation. doing the pretty heavily involved pre-construction, doing the investigation, all that open communication eliminates as best as possible variations as well and just makes a smooth building process.

Jess Kismet (26:14)

Yep, sure, mean, communication is key in all parts of life and business is definitely no exception. Builders do have a bad reputation for stinging their clients with variations or, you know, going over budget and over time and all those sorts of things. Like the industry as a whole has this, know, tarred with the same brush. So,

Luke Callery (26:19)

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Jess Kismet (26:37)

Yeah, so, you know, do you actively fight that?

Luke Callery (26:42)

So our process is we will be involved in the project as close to or if not on day one, basically. So before any design is done, majority of our builds at the moment are actually the client will actually come to us before they've got a designer through the information that we put out there. They're reaching out to us and wanting us to bring on a designer, which is quite nice.

Jess Kismet (27:07)

Brilliant, normally happens the other way around.

Luke Callery (27:09)

It normally does. So part of that mission then is I am trying to reach out to as many architects and designers that I can to also do my part to try and educate them on a different way to do business. I won't say better, even though we know it's better because they think the way that they do it is better. it has been pretty similar comparison to bashing your head on a wall. I think

Last year, I had a little bit of a quiet-er year reaching out to them, but back in 2022, I reckon it was, or sorry, 2023, I think I'd caught up with 27 different designers and architects for the year. Yeah, I was on a mission. And I reckon I got two of them to actually listen to me. They basically just, they get their back up against the wall and go, nah, this is the way we've always done it. And look in their defense, because I've had this discussion with

Jess Kismet (27:54)

You were on a mish.

Wow.

Luke Callery (28:07)

designers that we work with as well. They are taught that way. Going through uni, architects are taught that they need to manage the project. Their job is to oversee the whole build because a builder is there to do the construction, but it's your job as the architect to protect the homeowner, manage the process, ensure that the money is there, that things are being charged for at the right time. it's, it's kind of, it's not going to change overnight. But I just, wish that there's a lot more people that would start educating. I don't know whether educating is the right word because I guess it's putting that information out there or trying to speak to designers about trying to just change this process because once you've done one or two, it will totally transform your business. It'll change the client's expectation as well because when you're working as a collaborative team, everybody knows what's expected from them as long as you keep that communication.

they all know what their job role is because there's not one party that's specifically controlling the job. I'm not coming in as the builder to control every decision. We're there to price guide, give input on construction suitability, whereas a designer still has their role. They are, at the end of the day, they are the best person in that team to complete the design. I'm not a designer, so there is no way that I'm gonna get exact orientation.

The footprint the way that you use those spaces. That's not my field So everybody has their specific role that they need to contribute to So I guess that's where yeah everybody just needs to try and jump on that bandwagon and collaborate talk to people. It's okay

Jess Kismet (29:50)

Yes, so when you say, you know, you're trying to ask designers to do things a little bit differently. Are you talking about the detailing for the the higher performance details or are you talking about the way they actually like their workflow in terms like managing their projects? Or both?

Luke Callery (30:10)

The work. Yeah. So the, detailing, I think comes

a little bit later. So it's, it's been about like the workflow, about how the process works, I guess, cause it gets, when you come down to the overall budget of our, suppose, there's hell, mean, how often do you hear of a project that a client has spent 12 months, 18 months, two years, however long it may, they've spent thousands and thousands of thousands of dollars and time with an architect.

Jess Kismet (30:19)

Mm.

Luke Callery (30:40)

They then put it out for architectural tender after it's already got council approval, engineering finished, it's ready to go. They put it out for architectural tender and every single quote comes back hundreds of thousands of dollars more than what the budget was. It happens all the time. So I guess what our mission to try and change that process is to bring a builder involved in a collaborative team as early as possible to help guide that because an architect isn't purchasing

Jess Kismet (30:54)

I believe this happens all the time.

Luke Callery (31:10)

timber, they're not organising a concrete or they're not teeing up the roof. They're not bringing in plasterboard contractors to do all the linings. They're not, they're not the ones that are having to buy or supply the materials and the labor. So you can't expect an architect or a designer to know exactly what it's going to cost. Yes, they should have some idea from their previous projects and data. If they're communicating with the builder that's constructed those projects on

what the final bill came to. They should be able to gauge that from similar projects to give a rough price guide to a homeowner, but they're not going to know what the exact dollar is. And of course, go back a few years ago, there was this wonderful disease that caused chaos in the entire world that decided that it was going to double the cost of building. So what the perspective of a designer had on costs back then is so totally different nowadays that I think they actually do need help from a builder.

to guide them on what things cost. So that's kind of where I was getting at with how we're trying to change the process a little bit. When you talk detailing, like as in proper construction detailing, that's a whole nother kettle of fish. Thankfully we've got, thankfully we've got one building designer that we work with pretty much pretty well all the time, our go-to. You've had the pleasure of meeting Rebecca.

Jess Kismet (32:15)

Yeah.

You

Luke Callery (32:34)

We're working on some pretty cool stuff at the moment with the projects that we've got in design at the moment in actually drawing every little detail that we need because I actually had this discussion with a homeowner today that they're wanting to change a few things and it's not regarding construction detailing, but it's just simple stuff like electrical layouts and cabinetry layouts and things like that. they're speaking with the electrician about maybe we'll just take this row of lights out and speak with the cabinet maker and we'll just change, you know, where these cupboards go.

But if it's not documented so clearly from or before the job starts, like you can't expect as a homeowner, you can't expect that your builder and I'm singling myself out as the builder. I'm the principal contractor of Callery Building You can't expect me to be there all day, every day and hold everyone's hand and tell them what to do because you've had the conversation with me about the lights that you want to take out.

and the cabinets that you want to move around. Like there's other trades that need to come in before, for example, shop drawings are done for joinery and there's plumbers and electricians that are going to start doing their rough ins or their first fix. And they want to know where cupboards are. And if they go off of the original plan that the clients then go on to somewhere else to the cabinet maker and they've changed the location of stuff.

If it's not documented and I can't be there to tell them every day exactly what's going on, how are the, you'd set the project up for failure. So likewise, we're long-winded way to get back to construction detailing. If you're starting to want to implement things like higher truss heel height, so you can get bulk insulation right to that wall and ceiling junction or constructing ventilated cavities where you've got

vertical and horizontal battens depending on your cladding and cavity closers and things like that. If it's not documented on those drawings, I cannot be there all day every day to build it with them because that's not how you run a successful building company is you doing all the work yourself. yeah, guess it's construction detailing is, yeah, I don't know. It's a bit of an evolving beast at the moment.

We're getting there on our project, so I'm not sure whether there's a simple way to get everybody else on board with that. I guess just be open to listening to something new.

Jess Kismet (35:03)

The relationship between a builder and a designer or an architect, like it seems to be, you know, we talking about communication earlier. If you don't have a strong relationship with your designer, how does the project even work? Like genuine question, because I've only worked with builders who do have strong relationships or have internal designers. So.

Luke Callery (35:17)

You've just.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (35:25)

How does that process even go smoothly if you don't collaborate well? Like, the architect, do they actually follow projects all the way through or do they just hand you the plans and say, there you go?

Luke Callery (35:36)

If it's, if it's an architect will generally be employed then for contract administration through the build. So that will be the, the, the, the overseer of the entire project. they'll generally charge don't know, for example, one that, we know of recently that we managed to, talk the homeowner into not needing contract administration, but this particular architect, using as an example, they charged a monthly fee to be involved for contract administration. And I think that included, it might've been like a fortnightly site visit to come out and check on a few things. Even the stuff like, it gets so over-complicated because they needed to come out and check things like once the tiles got delivered, they would then have to come out before the tiler could even start doing anything to check that. Yep, they're definitely the exact tiles that came out. just simple stuff that...

If you've got the right systems and processes and people in your building company, if you've got it documented right, your site supervisor or anyone else on site should be checking these details at the bare minimum before any of that happens anyway. So they shouldn't necessarily need that much involvement from an architect during construction. I like the idea of it because I get it from their perspective. They have poured their heart and soul into that project for, like I said, potentially 12 months, 18 months, two years, however long it be, they've poured their heart and soul into that design. And it would be heartbreaking if they never got to see it under construction and see it all come together.

Jess Kismet (37:14)

Something else you said is that you're involved in the build project from day one, which like, I haven't heard, unless you've got an in-house designer, I've never heard of the builder being involved from day one. They don't have input into the design, generally speaking.

Luke Callery (37:24)

Hmm.  Yeah, so it's essentially like the model is essentially design and construct. But you try and keep it as that collaborative process that everybody works direct to the homeowner. kind of the way that we've been taught that the process should work is that way the liability of the design is actually still completely in the hands of the designer, because at the end of the day, unless you employ your own designer, you don't have that experience to be able to put it all together. So if for some reason, I'm not saying that I would ever do the design myself anyway, but if we just hired just like a random half experienced draft person and it all sort of fell to pieces, well, the liability is completely on me then as the builder. So if you're keeping that liability separate still to the designer. Um, it just simplifies that process a little bit, I suppose that I guess you kind of give, you give the opportunity then if for some reason the homeowner wants to explore, like if the relationship for some reason went sour or maybe they still feel at the end of the process that they've liked it, but they want to explore another option to go and get a price from another builder.

They have that option because the designer has worked direct for the homeowner. They own the drawings. They can take them and do whatever they want with them, which some people may look at it as if you're doing it, design and construct the builder owns the drawings. They've done it. Well, then, you know, you've got less chance of the client wanting to walk away and shop around because you've gone, you know, they've paid you for the drawings. So some people may look at what we do and get nervous that, no, that leaves too much risk there that at the end of it.

the client still may pick another builder, but that's where it completely falls back on you as the builder to provide all of that insight, all of that information, be as open and honest and upfront with the homeowner during that process as you can to build that trust that they don't feel the need to want to shop around. Like if they, I feel that if you get to the end of the process and they decide that they want to go on price check, you'll go somewhere else, you've failed at the process.

because you haven't done enough to convince that homeowner that if they want to build with you and this is what they want, that's all their dreams put in this bundle. That if they're not going to commit and go with you from it, I think you haven't done that process correctly.

Jess Kismet (40:01)

Gotta build that bond and that trust right from the start because then they don't really, they don't have any reason to question you.

Luke Callery (40:03)

Yeah.

No, that's right. And that's where we're in a pretty enjoyable space at the moment where our, we do as much as we can. We try and do a weekly site meeting with our clients because majority of them, the renovations are so large that the homeowner needs to move out. They don't have the services left in the house to be able to live there. So we try and catch up once a week or once a fortnight, obviously depending on their work schedules as well for a site meeting more so as well, because you've built that relationship and you've worked on the design.

It's more so it's to show them around their house to say, Hey, look, the guys have, you know, they've built that or they've installed that in the last week. You obviously haven't seen it because you're not living here. so it's, it's just a, like a happy, friendly catch up. There always will be a few things that, you know, something hasn't quite gone to plan or, or something might, minor may have got missed and you need to, have that meeting with them on site to walk through. What do you want to do about this change or, or, know, are you happy with that? To just to double check a few things, but yeah, it's essentially you've built that trust, you've built that relationship, you've got all the details sorted out that it's just a, it's a site update rather than a meeting.

Jess Kismet (41:20)

So your team, you've had to grow and expand your team over the last couple of years. Guide us through how you've done that and how you've approached the challenges that that has brought.

Luke Callery (41:22)

Mmm.

Wow, this is a tricky question. Cause last year, I'm always one to be pretty open and honest about everything that's going on. Last year was by far the toughest year that we have ever had for staffing. We had, I guess with the volume of work that we built up, we really need, we needed to increase our in-house team, which we did. But I guess it was at the time,

We were kind of just hiring without knowing too much of the experience of these individuals. and the wheels fell off very quickly. They didn't have the same drive that we did. They didn't have the same values. There was lots of butting of heads. was just a lack of quality and all this sort of stuff. And we went from very quickly, the biggest team that we had to back to almost the start again, like it was back to, the onsite team was myself, a supervisor and two apprentices at one point, that's how bad it was. I went back on the tools full time for about six weeks and it was, it was horrible. so yeah, it was, it was a very interesting year because then through, I guess just continuing to put the message out there on what we do, who we're looking for, what we want to achieve out of building. We managed to get a few new faces on board. There's, there's not really a,

And exact science, I suppose, to how we managed to get the team that we have, but we're in an incredible position that I feel that every single person that is involved in our team is on the same mission. We've got, I've had a lot of employees in the past that have gone to work because it's a job. Whereas I feel that pretty much every one of our team members comes to work because it's a career that they're actually passionate about. And it is a, it is a bit of an overwhelming thing to think back on actually.

I sort of funny story. I think it was the last working day of last year. we've, I've tried to step away from the project running nowadays. but once it goes to construction now we've got,

Hannah, who you've met, our project manager, she is doing incredible things with managing the project, speaking with clients, all the ordering and things like that. And then a new site supervisor that we got on late last year as well, that's taken over from one of the new projects. We've got a second story edition that we're doing at the moment. Hannah and Nathan, the site supervisor, we had a meeting the last Friday before Christmas and they, it was like a client meeting, a catch up to show them around.

I was there in the morning because I wanted to do a little bit of video content, just a bit of a wrap up for the year. And I sort of said hello to the homeowner and said, look, Hannah and Nathan can run the meeting. I'm just here. If you got any super tech questions or you want to chat, like I'm here, but otherwise, you know, you guys go do your thing. I remember sitting there at one point on the side of a bit of scaffolding, watching these two, speaking with the homeowners, asking the questions, telling them the information and Caitlin, my wife, she's our, like our video and content.

lady in the company as well. So she was there with me, we're sitting on the side of the scaffolding. I looked around and went, I feel like I'm watching my kids at the moment. This is a bit of a proud dad moment watching these people that we've trained up that are just completely taking control of these jobs. It's just, don't know whether there's an exact science on how you find those people, but my God, have we worked hard to try and sift through some very, very unqualified and unskilled individuals to try and get an absolutely incredible team. And it doesn't just extend to those two. Like everybody else is on that level.

I constantly remind the two apprentices that we've got as well that I wish that I had, and again, not saying that I'm the best boss in the world, but I wish that I had a boss that was pushing in that direction when I was an apprentice to be able to put that information and these construction methods straight in front of me so that I didn't even know the old shit way to do it. Like what you guys are learning, it is so satisfying to know that you're not even going to know.

how to potentially build a mouldy wall or how to build something wrong that you get a big condensation build up or flashing details are wrong or things like that. So yeah, it's a really cool space.

Jess Kismet (45:48)

Mm.

It's so much about culture. I had a job straight out of uni way back before I started on this career path and it was a law firm. And my boss at the time, he would hire uni graduates but he didn't want their resumes. He didn't ask for their resumes. He would host a big barbecue.

Luke Callery (46:04)

Yeah it is.

Yeah, okay.

Jess Kismet (46:24)

and he would just get law graduates to come along to a barbecue and he'd meet them and decide if he liked them. And that was how he hired people. He didn't look at their qualifications or their grades. He was creating a culture. just the way he created that, it just stuck with me ever since. And I just think that that is relationships, loyalty, cohesion, you know, that's how you create a really successful.

Luke Callery (46:28)

Yeah, right.

Jess Kismet (46:53)

work environment because you, mean, maybe construction, I mean, these people were lawyers, they needed to know their craft, but you can teach people that, you can teach people how to build that type of wall or that type of detail if they have the desire to learn.

Luke Callery (46:55)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (47:10)

So the skills they have when they come to you, as long as they're young enough to, like this guy, deliberately hired graduates because they were green and he could mold them. And yeah, it was a...

Luke Callery (47:19)

Yep. Yep. That's a good point.

A good point to segue actually. Just, I don't know again, this is obviously the Building Sciology party. It's not all about like employees and running your building company, but I actually go back probably a year and a half ago when we bought Hannah on board, we were advertising for a part-time admin. We wanted someone a couple of days a week.

And I was set in my mind. had a previous admin lady before that, things got a bit quiet. So we had to move her on, but then we started to ramp up and we needed to bring someone else on the team. I had made up in my mind that I had to hire someone because I didn't want to have to train them. I wanted them to be able to hit the ground running. I needed someone with experience. They had to have worked for a builder before and they had to have done this. And I actually got pulled up by a couple of other older builders that,

that I'd sort of networked with. And they said, look, don't get stuck in that mindset because it's kind of like the same with your onsite trades where you'll get an old school carpenter will come through that if they've probably been taught by another builder that may have like the mission that we were on trying to improve our business with better systems and processes and, building methods. If you get someone that's been employed by a substandard builder for

5 10 years, and then you bring them into your building company. Yes, they may have that experience of working for another builder, but you're probably gonna start again anyway, because they're stuck in their old ways. So don't get stuck with that. it was, yeah, it's kind of where we ended up with that. of the, I can't remember, I think we ended up doing about nine interviews, but we had like something like 120 applicants for the job. Everybody just wanted this little part-time job a couple of days a week.

Jess Kismet (48:51)

That's even harder.

Luke Callery (49:12)

Hannah was probably one of the least qualified out of the whole lot, but it was, yeah, just like the initiative that she showed in her interview and some of the questions that she asked me, I took a big gamble with her and thankfully I did. cause it's, yeah, it's ended up now she, she's the project manager. She runs the day to day of the projects. So yeah, just don't get stuck with, you know, guess thinking that you need to find someone with a hell of a lot of experience because sometimes that might not be the answer. They're, they're broken already.

Jess Kismet (49:42)

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, this is the Building Sciology Poddie but you're a builder who's gone from, know, standard construction background to a growth mindset moving into the energy efficiency space. So these are all challenges that anyone in your position or someone who wants to be in your position are going to be faced with. So it's all still completely relevant. Okay, well, speaking of builders who want to be in your position.

Luke Callery (49:47)

You

Yep.

Yeah, true.

Jess Kismet (50:10)

What advice would you give to other builders looking to do what you've done?

Luke Callery (50:14)

Network. Definitely network. Cause I guess that's where, that's where I started. Networking will then lead you to find, I guess, the, the right education for yourself. So I obviously fortunate enough to come across Live Life Build and join that platform before I started massively networking with a lot of builders.

That's what really brought it on was being a part of that community, but networking and asking questions. don't be afraid that like, you spot someone online, or know of someone that is doing or, or in that position where you want to be, don't be afraid to ask questions. The worst that you can do, like if you'd run into them down the street or at the hardware store, or if you have got their phone number for some reason, ring them, the worst they're going to do is hang up on you or ignore you or not answer your question.

If you continually ask the questions and have the drive to want to educate yourself, that's, I guess the best advice I can give you, have a crack. Like there's, I've definitely managed to, get to the position where we are by like, you know, go all in and have a crack from time to time. You're never going to get anywhere from just sitting on the fence and wondering, you know, what's, what's, what's going to happen.

If we maybe did that, that's the definition of going insane. Isn't it doing the same thing repeatedly and hoping for a different outcome? so yeah, networking, have a go at it, learn from your mistakes because you will stuff up. there's, it's an absolute given that, you, you will make mistakes, but focus on what is in your control from that point and work out what have I done? What have we done wrong? How can we improve it next time? so yeah, that's the simplest way I can put it.

Jess Kismet (52:01)

Thanks Luke, good advice. Where do you see Callery in the next five to ten years?

Luke Callery (52:06)

taken over the world, of course. now I just, guess, continuing the mission that we're on with, like retrofitting, expanding the team. I'd love to get into the new home market. think there's definitely an opportunity here. I feel like there is actually a fair lack in the South Australian market for builders wanting to.

Jess Kismet (52:09)

Of course.

Luke Callery (52:27)

do better, there are a lot, like don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people in the local community that are wanting to, but there is still a lot that are falling a long way behind. So yeah, I guess just get into the new home market as well would be nice to be able to really put some decent numbers on some high performance new homes or one day Passivhaus actually just completed my passive house trades persons course like last year. So I've got to the exam for that.

This year, yeah, be a certified Passive House trades person and do a Passivhaus would be great. But yeah, I guess just continue to expand the company, employ some more people that can do what I do, but better and cheaper than what I can do it for. And then maybe how open-ended was it? Was it five to 10 years? Maybe a 10-year plan, retire? No, I think I got a bit more on me than that, but yeah, just.

Jess Kismet (53:16)

Okay.

Luke Callery (53:22)

Just yeah, continue. Well, cause I guess it sort of leads into the mission of Build Insite as well is to be able to have a building company that we can use as a platform to put a lot more information out there for people on that platform and spend a lot more time in that because it is my true passion is sharing my learnings and education with everybody else that's out there.

Jess Kismet (53:42)

Good on you, Luke. Actually, I do want to ask you a more question that I haven't got written down here. And it's just about your experience with the building code and your learning around it. So the energy efficiency space that you've sort of you've gone into is all a self-driven educational journey. There's nothing that tells you you have to do it. There's nothing in the trade school or in the building.

Luke Callery (53:51)

Hmm.

Yep.

Jess Kismet (54:10)

the builder's licensing requirements that tells you that you need to understand energy efficiency or be better at it. Or even, you know, no one is checking that you're following the specification properly or anything like that. So when the building codes change what's your experience with energy efficiency outside of this and how do you learn?

What's your advice to someone who is wanting to learn?

Luke Callery (54:36)

Hmm. Good question. Because I remember back when when the NCC 2022, when all these changes were first announced, everyone was, in a mad panic because they needed to increase and comply with seven star energy efficiency rating. some of the, I won't name them, but let's just say industry seminars.

The information that they were putting out there. was, again, I've not been one to ever sit in the sidelines and just sort of go with the flow. If there's a question that I want to ask and I want to know the information, I've always put myself out there and asked it. So thankfully there was a few sections in these seminars where you could turn your microphone on and you could ask questions. And it was just, it was embarrassing. Some of the things that were brought up in these seminars that some of the, I can't actually remember what the questions were, but.

the guys that were running these seminars didn't even know the answers to it. And they're the ones that are trying to educate you on how to implement these changes. So I guess don't be put off by it. Like do the seminars, unfortunately they charge a bloody fee for it where they should all be free anyway to educate you. Andrew Healy actually said the best on a recent Build Insight podcast. Actually he put it in his perspective, which actually he brought it up again, but I think it was actually AirBoss Dan that said it.

Every three years, there is a change to the national construction code. So how terrifying is it that an apprenticeship takes four years? So what an apprentice begins to learn in the first year of their training, by the time they finished their apprenticeship, it's completely outdated already. It is terrifying, isn't it?

Jess Kismet (56:17)

I hadn't even thought of that.

And it used to be

every year, the code would change every year. Only started changing every three years back in 2016, I reckon. Quite recently, 2016, 19, or maybe it was 13. Anyway, it's only been in the last decade. Before that, it was every year.

Luke Callery (56:23)

Every year.

Yeah, okay. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Well, maybe some people will look at it that the South Australian governments may be down on some favours and apprentices coming through. They're to get stuck with the same old bloody building code for the next 10 years. So they've got plenty of time to soak it in, but, that's maybe, that's maybe a conversation for another podcast one day, Jess, but anyway, what else can you do to get into that space? I don't know. ask questions, reach out to people like yourself.

Jess Kismet (56:48)

Yeah, I don't even know what I think about that. I just...

Yeah.

Luke Callery (57:05)

speak to Climasure speak to Jess, legend from Building Sciology Yeah, what about you? Can you like elaborate with me on this? what can other people, because I'm sure there's people listening and going, geez, that was an average answer. What else can I do to find the information? What can you suggest to people to get the answers?

Jess Kismet (57:10)

you

Okay.

The internet is a never ending resource. You know, start Googling the Your Home website, yourhome.gov.au. It's actually a government website. It's actually excellent. And that it's tailored towards homeowners, but it's it's an excellent website for to upskill the layperson. For builders, I would say, yeah, podcasts like yours, Live Life Build program.

Luke Callery (57:31)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (57:57)

the Mindful Builder podcast, articles like on the Climasure website, there's a whole bunch of blog articles that I've written about various things, ask other builders, you're talking about networking, contact other builders, I've heard a few builders say lately that the Instagram, like the school of Instagram is huge. Just the DM section is going off amongst builders right now as they are learning from each other.

and you know that's it's such a valuable place to learn from people who are doing it.

Luke Callery (58:32)

Yeah, you will get mixed

opinions on that though. So just be a little bit careful with it. But yeah, I think if you can, if you do get mixed opinions, just take, take the valuable little insights that you feel from each conversation and then mold it into the best way that you can elaborate on it.

Jess Kismet (58:46)

That's true.

Oh the Sustainable Builders Alliance as well, they're really really good, sign up for their newsletter. Yeah, yep.

Luke Callery (58:49)

yeah.

Actually, that's an incredible platform tied up to that for sure.

Locally, I guess is the Adelaide Sustainable Builders Network. Yeah, building network, sorry. Yep.

Jess Kismet (59:01)

Yes, building network.

Yep, yep, yeah, they're an excellent resource as well. They hold events like in-person events and online events that you can go and they're really good networking too. But that's only for locals in South Australia. although if it's online, anyone can attend the online

And just the internet, YouTube, there's so many building podcasts and advisory, like good advice out there. Yeah. Yeah.

Luke Callery (59:25)

Yep. Undercover architect, that's probably one of the best ones I reckon. She puts out some incredible

information on all topics. So yeah, that's a hot resource.

Jess Kismet (59:36)

Yeah, and there's hundreds of episodes of her podcast as well. She's up to like 300 and nearly 400 or

So final question, it's very broad but the final question is what is the one thing that you want people to know? What is their one message that you would like people to understand?

Luke Callery (59:53)

One message I'd like them to understand.

Don't be afraid of thinking that building better is going to come with a whopping price tag. If you can find the right consultants and create the right team from a very early process, I think you'll find that it's actually a lot more achievable than you think.

Jess Kismet (1:00:22)

Right on.

All right. Thank you so much, Luke, for your time. This has been an excellent episode, excellent discussion. I really appreciate you coming on the Building Sciology Poddie

Luke Callery (1:00:32)

It has been an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Jess Kismet (1:00:35)

No worries.