#38 | BONUS Revolutionising Building Knowledge with Tools™ — An Interview with Jerry Tyrrell

Jess Kismet (00:00)

Hello and welcome to the Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. My name is Jess Kismet and I am your host.

 

Today I am joined by a man who has taken innovation in the building industry into the most practical, tangible and needed space. I am delighted to be talking today to Jerry Tyrrell, the man who has created a visual building code. You wouldn't read about it. If you haven't heard of the app Tools™ and you're in the construction industry, go to your app store right now or your Play Store and download the app and take a tour. In an industry full of practical hands-on people,

 

Jerry Tyrrell (00:08)

Okay.

 

Jess Kismet (00:35)

It

 

baffles me that it's taken so long for a resource like this to appear. Jerry's construction industry experience is extensive and he's turning that experience and knowledge into something really truly useful and revolutionary and I'm super keen to find out more. Welcome Jerry.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (00:50)

Hello, Jess. Thank you for the intro.

 

Jess Kismet (00:52)

No worries,

 

All right, so could you please tell us a bit about you? Your credentials list is long and I would love to hear a little bit about your professional history and journey to today.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (01:04)

And there's no ego about this, Jess, that everybody who's doing things has got wonderful resumes. And I would say a shout out to all of the listeners there. Please build your resume. Please do something important and not for ego purposes. I started as a labourer when I was 17. I moved into being a self-employed painter when I was 19. We bought a few terraces in a city, Sydney, when I was 23. And we started renovating those and doing DIY and owner builder licenses. I did train as an architect.

 

became a builder when I was 24. I've been probably a craftsman. I'd like to think I've been seeking craft knowledge all of my life. And we'll talk further about just the implications of craft on our industry. Obviously I've had a lot to do with the inspection of buildings and building quality across Australia and the suite of standards. I've written a few books. I've created some first aid products when my four week old niece died, sadly.

 

I've had a mixed bag. Tools, leaves, everything for dead as far as potential societal benefit and I didn't do it for me. I did it basically because it's an overdue asset the community needs.

 

Jess Kismet (02:14)

I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. When I first came across this app, was like, gobsmacked that I hadn't even thought of, you know, that this could be so helpful and that someone had thought of it and gone and really committed to creating something so useful in an industry of people who are good with their hands and not necessarily good reading technical documents.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (02:34)

Cool, and I agree completely. How many times, I'm sure the listeners will, this will resonate with the listeners, how many times on site have we sort of spoken together? We've collaborated, we've drawn pictures. I was a master of 3D sketches on bits of fibro, on cardboard, on something that was gonna be covered up, putting pieces of material together. We talk visual language. It's such an exciting place to be. And if anything that comes from today,

 

Jess Kismet (02:53)

Yep.

 

Absolutely.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (03:04)

I just want us to just respect for the fact that all of us have built every part of what you see around you. We've built Australia successfully using primitive visual skills and a song line of craft.

 

Jess Kismet (03:16)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, every time you ask a tradesman or a builder to explain something to you straight away, they'll get out a pencil and they'll draw it for you. It's a very visual group of people. So thank you for your innovation. So tell us a bit about the app, how it works. $15 million has been invested into the development of this app, is that correct?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (03:36)

Yeah, sure. And you sort of think, well, why hasn't this been done by somebody else? But it hasn't. It's a very simple dual platform. You log on. In most cases, you can graphically navigate. You can search by text on the app itself. You can voice search. We're cleaning up a lot of the search function and we will have an AI search pretty quickly. But you're essentially able to ask anything and ideally get an illustration and also some text based, some relevant

 

text-based material back at you. But most of the time, you're just validating. You're checking something, you're validating a dimension, somebody's giving you a BS on site and you just want to basically show that you know as much as any tradesman, any craftsman, if you're a designer or you're an apprentice and your boss is doing it the wrong way with fire seals and any of the things that have changed since he did his apprenticeship. And you can in under 12 seconds find.

 

most of the technical aspects and the quality standards that you need to build Australia well.

 

Jess Kismet (04:36)

12 seconds, if you time that. Is that what you come up with? That's awesome.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (04:39)

it's less. The graphic navigation, yeah.

 

So I use the, I mean, I use the homepage the whole time because I'm visual, sorry. I mean, I did okay at school, but I hated it. I hated reading. I put things down in point form. I essentially was a walking artificial intelligence person that the teacher said, I've got to write more words. No, I put it in point form and drew it. And now I just essentially delivered all the knowledge that I have.

 

Jess Kismet (05:03)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (05:07)

has been shared with me, I've delivered in a visual form for the tradespeople and the designers of the future.

 

Jess Kismet (05:14)

So you said there's a voice function, a voice search. How easy is that? It's like whenever I want to know a question these days since the beginning of Chat GPT which only happened relatively speaking five minutes ago, I pick up my phone and I speak into it and I get an answer straight away. So you've got a voice function as well.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (05:33)

Sure, so I search, I search and I'm not saying, there's cold hard content here. So if anybody doesn't think that this doesn't have the majority of the answers that you need, you're wrong. The search process, we are improving the whole time, but as soon as I go, as soon as I press search at the top, the microphone comes up onto the bottom. And all I do is I just press that and type in FIDL or I type in

 

Jess Kismet (05:55)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (06:00)

a latching, glazing latch or a slide panel or I type in class two formwork and it will then load what you want from there. And because the content's becoming more and more complete and complex, it takes away the need to go through the graphic navigation.

 

Jess Kismet (06:05)

Mm-hmm.

 

Brilliant.

 

Fantastic. And the building code is currently paused nationally. And the reasoning behind that, as I understand it, is to simplify and even use AI to summarise and make the building code shorter and easier to navigate. Have they called you and been like, hey, Jerry, can we use your app?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (06:23)

Yeah.

 

No, they haven't. Now, I really like the ABCB. I mean, I've been sniping at them because I think they got a lot of things wrong, but their aim to build Australia well is fantastic. But that could be said in those seven words, build Australia well, everybody. I mean, I think they've got their, they've got the absolute noble objective, but they've got most of it wrong. They've made it much too complex. They've given the industry that likes pictures and graphics words.

 

Jess Kismet (06:46)

Mm-hmm.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (07:04)

and now they're fiddling around with minor tweaks and it looks as though it's disorganised shambles. And there's a lot of pressure behind it too, Jess. There's a lot of political pressure behind supposedly the cost of building. My spin to all of you listeners out there, it is so much cheaper to build well to start off with besides the carbon saving, the maintenance saving, the FM saving, a whole raft of issues that come home to roost when you sell a property. It is so much cheaper.

 

Jess Kismet (07:18)

Mm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (07:33)

So if any of the associations are squeaking about the cost of building, tell them it's all nonsense. Just build properly to start off with.

 

Jess Kismet (07:42)

Yeah.

 

Absolutely, get it right the first time. Get it right the first time. So you're moving Tools™ into educational institutions, which is fantastic. There is not enough training in, well, particularly in my industry, in the energy efficiency sort of, you know, building science space. There's not enough information at architecture school or trade school for the people who are going to be building Australia. And so I put a lot of energy of my own into this training and trying to get into TAFEs myself.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (07:45)

Mmm.

 

Jess Kismet (08:08)

and getting into like in universities and getting these people while they're still students. So you were doing the same thing. What's the response been like?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (08:16)

look, it's been slow, but very sure. So most people get that this is the digital transformation that's overdue. And if you think, I mean, it's hard enough teaching basic craft skills, but when you're getting into the energy efficiency and section J and some of the stuff that you and I've seen your podcast with Tim Law, that there are so many people who are trying to communicate what the NCC wants us to understand.

 

Jess Kismet (08:37)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (08:44)

badly, then I can assure you that Tools™ is going to be one of the ways by which most core knowledge is simplified, taught extremely well. And there's then bandwidth for the for the quite scientific aspects of what you're trying to say, which is carbon, carbon management, energy efficiency. It is a completely confusing landscape on how tradesmen make a building comply with Section J, in my opinion.

 

Jess Kismet (09:00)

Mm-hmm.

 

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So you, what do you think the most common root causes of these defects that we find in the Australian construction industry are? Root, is it a knowledge problem? Is it a training problem? Is it a cultural problem? What do you think is happening?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (09:31)

I think it's know-how. think that if you look at, you know, we've got a long list of people supporting us and the reason why I think the TAFEs are on board is because they recognise that they are the gatekeepers of the primary knowledge and then you've got the master builders and you've got the certifiers and you've got associations that then take it further. Most of the problem is about the songline of craftsmanship that is being increasingly lost instead of being

 

Jess Kismet (09:33)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (09:57)

instead of us all being reminded and taught about it and reinforced, but reinforced at different layers. So the first time you go into TAFE, it is a story that is consistent with second year as an apprentice. If you do your Cert IV, if you do a design course, the details that you're seeing in all aspects of that are the details that you're going to be constructing and they're all compliant. So that's why the single know-how of the craft of building, it's almost like a

 

just a simple formula. We're all building the same thing and it's all got to do with knowledge throughout the whole process.

 

Jess Kismet (10:34)

Do you go on to sites now? What's the process? People buy your app and they use it. Do you actually visit construction sites to assist at all or are you mostly developing the app behind the scenes?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (10:55)

look at the whole combination of different applications of the app. I personally apply it, but when I'm on site, my brother calls it JI, it's Jerry Intelligence. obviously Tools™ is not needed because I'm there. But if I need to show people, like we have a set out tool that tells people to be consistent. You're a designer. If you haven't documented a switch plate height and an air conditioning control, then people will haphazardly locate them.

 

Whereas I want them centered, I want a one meter meridian. I want to have everything basically can consistent. So if I'm not on the side, I want people to be able to pull out any tool and essentially have me and thousands of other craftsmen giving them exactly how it should be done. But basically Tools™ relies on applying Tools™ at all aspects of what you're doing. So if it's not documented, everything else, everything else missing between the grid lines.

 

between the dimensions, between any of the technical schedules, everything else is Tools™. So it picks up the missing pieces. So the designer refers to it, they use best Tools™. It's on their drawing in a code block. The developer requires everybody to use Tools™ because it's their quality safeguard. The contractor is always.

 

Jess Kismet (11:57)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (12:13)

applying Tools™ and telling people to do it. The certifiers have already got Tools™ embedded in their DNA. So it's an ecosystem of talking the same thing. Jess, it's a no brainer. Weep holes at five courses, know, drain cavity, sloping sills, head flashings that extend past reveals. This is not rocket science, but it is, it's a neglected part of most parts of construction.

 

Jess Kismet (12:23)

Mm-hmm.

 

Wouldn't it be good if there was like a, you you could just put a link and I'm sure this is already doable. You know, you get your PDF, you can add links to PDFs and you just have a link. Like click on this link to see this detail and it goes straight to the detail in Tools™.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (12:50)

It does, we've already got that. So you have got a QR code. Yeah.

 

Jess Kismet (12:52)

Brilliant. You can already incorporate

 

the exact code reference and technical drawing on your plan set.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (13:01)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. So that it's a, we have a Revit, um, uh, plugin. So that's very simple for anybody to embed it. But I essentially want everybody to be thinking, if I don't know it, I'll check it. Okay. And there's nothing wrong with that. What I don't want to do is go on site anymore and see failure. And failure is when a defect has slipped through that nobody wanted.

 

Jess Kismet (13:07)

A revi-

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Mm-hmm. And can homeowners use this app as well? Like if they're thinking, my tiler hasn't done that waterproofing properly or my, I don't know, if they think that there's something that they built out or their tradie has missed.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (13:27)

Yeah, we're not, we're not rich.

 

Bingo. So you can get three free screens a month forever if you want to. So if you're a homeowner, you can decide to go on and just compare what you're looking at with what it should be. ⁓ But ideally you've told your contractor, if it's a DIY project, you're taking some ownership, which even if it's not a DIY, you want to take some ownership of any building project. You know that ideally you've called up Tools™. You've said to the tradies, look,

 

Jess Kismet (13:49)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (14:04)

please do it in accordance with Tools™ and you'll have no trouble at all personally for what you're doing, but also you'll have no trouble with me and any of the inspectors who are coming to have a look at the work. So it is just such a simple way to keep quality.

 

Jess Kismet (14:13)

Mm.

 

Yeah, and you know, just to be such a usable interface for anybody, not just people in the industry, but for homeowners.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (14:25)

Yeah,

 

yeah, now, now the other point too, is that the DIYs can just take it for two months if they want to. They pay 30 bucks a month and they've got it there as the safeguard. And what I find is especially, and I'm not sexist at all, but especially women, they like the detail. They like to know exactly how things are going. designers are only really putting guidelines on their drawings. Quite often the meat and potatoes are missing.

 

Jess Kismet (14:36)

Mm-hmm.

 

Yes. Yeah.

 

Yeah, it's often up to the trades to fill in the blanks, isn't it? The builders, So what do you think actually helps people learn and change in this industry? Because we are a bit of a slow moving, fixed mindset, would kind of say for a proportion of the industry kind of people. What do you think is going to help people evolve and learn and...

 

Jerry Tyrrell (14:55)

to get it wrong, sadly, unintentionally.

 

Jess Kismet (15:15)

accept because I'm thinking admitting that you're right. I've heard builders say before that they don't when you learn something new, it sort of makes you doubt everything you've done before and feel bad for all the projects you've done before when you didn't know. So what do you think is going to change that or help people move forward?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (15:27)

Look.

 

you and people like you, there's a general apathy. call them frogs. It's as though we're all sitting there waiting for something else to happen. And it hasn't happened on my watch. The reason why I did Tools™ was because nothing was changing. So the starting point is individual sort of acceptance and

 

Jess Kismet (15:41)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (15:52)

taking responsibility for the problem that we're in, which is a 50 billion. So for all of you listening, it's costing everybody in Australia about $50 billion a year for productivity, rework, mistakes, unnecessary QA, conflicts and pain and shame. So it's a real economic downer to our GDP. Now that can so easily be changed by attitude. They say that the students don't care. Well,

 

why aren't we giving them an educational experience which is wonderful, which is why Tools™ is a really great asset. That on the job site, it just can't be, she'll be right, it can't be Jerry building, here's the pun. It basically needs to be, we want to build this correctly the whole time and any quality system is purely about validation, verification that the work was done really well. But I don't want to lecture the group there. We can all fix this together.

 

And I just think that that's gonna, I hope that's gonna come about because of Tools™ and podcasts like yours, Jess.

 

Jess Kismet (16:52)

Mm, I hope so too. I hope so too. think that anyone listening to this podcast is already going over and above what they, you know, need to do and they're already interested in learning. So I hope so too. It's a...

 

Industry often feels fragmented, where we have designers and architects over here and builders here and consultants here and the homeowner over here and not really communicating super well, sort of working in siloed environments. It can happen so easily. I think it's partially human nature to just sort of get on with what you're doing and not really worry about everything else around you. But in the construction industry, collaboration is so important. So how do you see apps like yours

 

data shared systems, helping to bridge those gaps.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (17:34)

Well, I think you picked it, just saying this sort of siloed approach. See, I think that because I'm an architect, I'm a tradesman. I love science. I love working with engineers. I love reading the back of, I don't like reading, but I like reading the technical stuff that means that we get the job right. What I have said, and you may or not have seen my images, I think that there's a trilogy when we build. There's a combination of beauty, which is the designers and architects, there's a combination of craft.

 

which is the tradies and the contractors and the supervisors. And then there are the scientists, which are the certifiers and the engineers. It takes all three of them. Of course, I love the beauty part of the city. I love spaces that resonate and inspire, but none of that comes about unless the science is right, unless the craftsmen really know what they're doing. And they're all, I'm just saying to all of you who think you're better than anybody else in that trio. ⁓

 

You're not. Everyone depends upon somebody else to make sure that the building product becomes superb. And I think tool sits at the centerpiece as far as the technical content that might be missing in so much of the rubbish and the mistakes that I have to look at.

 

Jess Kismet (18:46)

What keeps you motivated, Jerry? You've spent decades in this industry, and you are still full of so much energy and desire to improve the industry as a whole. It's extremely... It's extremely impressive. What keeps you motivated?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (19:03)

I just love building. I love the fact that on a day, on a bad day, something gets done. On a good day, it is liberating because you just see what manpower, people power can achieve. It's just such a joy. And I have to say that some of the best times have been when we've puzzled out and I'm a natural puzzler. I like construction. I look at the world as being just real life Lego.

 

It's just so joyful. I'm probably, latterly, I've been disgusted at the reputational losses. So I wanted to change that. Most of the people I know are dignified, honest people who've never had a defect claim or any form of conflict. And yet we're seen as the lower end of professionals. And I just, ⁓

 

Jess Kismet (19:51)

which is ridiculous.

 

is a completely, complete, is a complete and admirable profession to go into the construction industry in any way, shape or form.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (19:53)

Let's.

 

Exactly, but frauds and shortcuts and I've been calling it the no no rules I'm against the lazy people I did a post where I just showed a four four lazy lazy workers one with a you know a bet now phone and one with glasses and a stick so there are there's a cohort of people we have to we have to marginalise or just no I don't want to marginalise them I want to call them out and change them and if they don't change they should not be representing us on the industry Australia it's GDP

 

Jess Kismet (20:24)

Mm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (20:29)

will move upwards, productivity will improve when everybody thinks that construction is the best profession to be in, whether you're a designer, an engineer, a certifier, or a humble tradian builder like me, although I've got a couple of university degrees as well.

 

Jess Kismet (20:48)

think both of us are pretty lucky that we both really love our jobs. It's a pretty cool position to be in.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (20:54)

Look, I wish I could open this window. I'm in downtown Surry Hills, a beautifully well renovated terrace of pride. It's a compliment to the modern craftsman, okay, because it's in an old craftsman building. But everything I look out the window was built by the people who are on this call. Okay. And why there is any crap and blame, we should be proudly saying, wow. And the other point too, when have you seen a designer pedestal

 

for the beauty and the inspiration that they have brought to your community, suburbs, city, state. We never hear about that wonderful accomplishment. And I think that's an indictment.

 

Jess Kismet (21:34)

Mm. Mm.

 

God, I feel all like overwhelmed right now.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (21:39)

That's why we change it. And that's why if it's any comfort for all of you, I had a lot to do with dragging the industry and not using treated timbers because it was so sad seeing the owners faces when they had to spend $30,000 replacing rotted timbers that were allowed to be bought by a builder who installed them brilliantly. But after five years, the deck had to be replaced. So I had a lot to do with that. So with external timbers, I had a lot to do with changing the culture from allowing

 

Jess Kismet (22:01)

say that again? Well could you repeat that please?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (22:09)

builders and designers to use untreated timbers inappropriately. So this is this fit for purpose. And I know you haven't got it on your script now, Jess, but if that if there was better fit for purpose legislation, we would the builders would not be scapegoated with quite often product product failure. So you can put a pin in that one to all of you there. Press your politicians. And that's the other point too about what I said about resumes. Fill your resumes, please, with true actions that have made

 

Jess Kismet (22:15)

Yeah.

 

That's fine.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (22:39)

the building of Australia, not even better for your pocket and better for everybody that you're involved with, but every building that you've been involved with and you've left for posterity is pretty much like the older buildings that I inspect. I say, wow. And what has given me the confidence that Australia can build as well or better than any of the people who had no rules, who had no governments across them. We can build as well or better as long as we basically use the right Tools™.

 

and have pride.

 

Jess Kismet (23:09)

Mm

 

hmm. So is there anything else, you know, it is casually dropped that you were involved in in the introduction or the better use of treated timbers in decks. ⁓ What else don't we know about Jerry Tyrrell?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (23:20)

Yep. Or even class one hardwoods,

 

Jess. I mean, sometimes it was a question of just telling the builder, choose a class one hardwood which has a 40 to 50 year life. So you don't have any toxins in anything in any of treated timbers.

 

Jess Kismet (23:35)

Mm-hmm. What else don't we know about you, Jerry? There must be so much. What...

 

Jerry Tyrrell (23:40)

there's a lot of, but it's not about

 

me. It's the fact that I go to work, I think I'm implicitly anxious and that my ability to solve problems is basically stops me thinking about the pain I saw with a cantilever deck that rotted or I was poisoned chlorochlor, climbing under a, terrace when I was a bit younger than you, pulling a fire rated cable because I didn't know that the termitocides were so toxic and it took me a long time to recover. So I got rid of chemicals in sub floors, didn't I?

 

So those sort of things. if we focus on what we can do, so for all the listeners out there, most of my cohort that buy Tools™ are people who just don't want to have problems. that really, and all I want to do with every step in my building career is to go out there and build something well that in 50 years time will look phenomenal. And ideally it's well designed too, Jess. So please, it's not as simple as just applying Tools™. It's making sure that what you build with Tools™ is an absolute masterpiece.

 

design wise and also affordable. are lots of stories too because I'm pushing for offsite work too to reduce construction time and also to really reduce the construction problems. So there are lots of stories which no doubt we can talk about at another time.

 

Jess Kismet (24:37)

Mm-hmm.

 

so the app itself, is it primarily a, it's got the National Construction Code in it, in its entirety. Does it have Australian standards as well?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (25:00)

It calls up all of the reference documents. it's misleading out there that the NCC, sorry, the standards are the only reference documents. The NCC is the primary code. It calls up a process where everything must be fit for purpose, safe. There are all sorts of criteria. It then calls up a set of reference documents that includes

 

Technical documents include some Australian standards and in my opinion it calls up all of the basic craft standards to make sure that the building work meets the criteria of the NCC, which is that the building is fit for purpose. But we do and we have citations. So when you choose a tool that you can then you can find the measurement, you can find the concrete cover, you can find the class of concrete.

 

You can find all the illustrations that help you build it. But if you want to go back and read the clause in the NCC, the clause in NASH, the clause in an Australian standard, the clause in any other standard which might be relevant, then you can go back to that and you can find that in our citations.

 

Jess Kismet (26:07)

So, I mean, the Australian

 

standards are like a couple of hundred dollars each, so your subscription means that you don't have to pay for those, it's all included.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (26:14)

Look, we aren't allowed to say that. often we have to say that you have to maintain your subscription with these documents until there comes a time when I hope the governments will basically say the best way to get cheaper building is to make sure that everything is essentially free. My personal view is I haven't gone to an Australian standard, one, because I can't read it. I disagree. They only contain about 10 % of what you need to build well

 

Jess Kismet (26:32)

Mm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (26:42)

So that for all of you who dealing with the largest area of risk in Australia, which is waterproofing, the Australian standard will say falls and shower rose height, but it won't tell you about substrates. It won't tell you about the type of finish you have to have to put your membrane on. It won't tell you about the return of angles at your cavity slider. It doesn't tell you about all these little things that are a part of the craft of building the NCC.

 

essentially in my opinion requires you to do that. So that's the whole point of trying to blend in the craft quality standards, not just the so-called Australian and ISO standards.

 

Jess Kismet (27:22)

So you're saying that the NCC encourages craftsmanship?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (27:27)

The NCC, unequivocably, calls for good building quality. And the fact that it doesn't call up some of the age-old craftsmanship specifically doesn't mean that it should not be done when it's a minimum requirement. Like for instance, all doors should be arised, the corners of it. The standard doesn't say that. But every craftsman that I know, every tradesman I know would arise the doors because one, it's not a sharp corner, the dents.

 

or hurts a person, but it takes your paint coating more effectively. So your paint coating doesn't thin out on a sharp corner. Boring's bad shit, sorry for all of you people listening, but there are thousands of... Oh, the craftsmen, look at me. This all came from hundreds of craftsmen being kind to me and telling me about that backing off doors, stainless steel hinges, three hinges, solid core doors, boring as I mean, I go to jobs where I specified hardware 40 years ago.

 

Jess Kismet (28:03)

It's the little things that matter, Jerry.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (28:24)

that are in absolute mint condition because somebody told me choose a durable stainless steel product.

 

Jess Kismet (28:31)

Mm-hmm. That must be pretty, satisfying. Going back to... Yeah.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (28:36)

Well, it vindicates choices. And

 

to all of you out there, I promise you, and you can watch this space, I will have for the designers and specifiers out there, I will have a selectometer eventually. So you can put in a material and find out everything. It'll probably be AI driven and it will dump on you when you've bought some sort of hose reel bracket that corrodes in two years that was meant to be a stainless steel, but it's not.

 

So I'll have a means by which all of us designers and architects, we can put a choice in there, or if a builder is going to substitute something, you can shove the choice into the selectometer and it'll say yes or no to it. So, so Jess, I'm saying that quite often the problems in the industry are not necessarily the builders, the builders lack of skill. It's a really bad choice that should never have passed the judgment of a wise designer and architect.

 

Jess Kismet (29:13)

Brilliant.

 

have some metal pegs on my washing line that were supposed to be stainless steel and not rust and they are rusted.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (29:34)

Look at you. Well, that's what I feel. I bought a barbecue and I love Bunnings except for choice confusion. I just say, there are any Bunnings people out there, you heard it from Jerry, get rid of the carbon eating crap. Unconfuse your customer. Give them really supportive product, safe carbon. The trip going back to go and get the pegs. Well, you can't even get them. But I've got a barbecue that I bought from Bunnings and I had a beautiful frame for it.

 

Jess Kismet (29:35)

You

 

Jerry Tyrrell (30:03)

and it was meant to be for outdoor use. It rusted in three and a half years. It was discovered

 

Angry.

 

Jess Kismet (30:08)

Mm-hmm. Not happy.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (30:10)

not happy

 

and it's on everybody's watch and it's but you know we talk about it this is a true community cost in that going wrong we all pay somehow for this.

 

Jess Kismet (30:22)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And not only is this app amazing for information, the time saving, the time saving in trawling through documents and getting answers, like time is money in the construction industry. And, you know, you can get answers, well, we said 12 seconds instead of hours and hours.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (30:41)

Mmm.

 

And the badge of honour is going to be too, that you're going to have it there. That if you do know that you've got to have your PowerPoint at least 150 away from your basin, well, you know it. But sometimes you have to convince an electrician or you're schooling your apprentice and saying, look, you do need to make sure you check these things before you retrofit something that was missing. But also the best practice, I like 40 mil handrails. So we've got some best practice there and we'll be increasingly

 

building on that. I want to make sure that all of the skills from people like you, so people tell me about grab ability, people tell me about slip resistance, people tell me about for instance map finishes in hallways, in class three, in hotels, I find is much better than a loci because you're getting glancing light issues with them. There are all sorts of tips that we need to just check on before we specify or we build it.

 

Jess Kismet (31:36)

Talk to me a little bit about craftsmanship. You mentioned this a few times today. I really want to go a little bit further into that with you. What have you seen in your time? Did you study under craftsmen? What's your thoughts and feelings about that in the industry at the moment?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (31:53)

Well, I will unpack that. Firstly, I'll say that most of my trade, I'll say all of my trade skills I learnt without reading anything. I learnt it from people with superb, often from a European background. My bricklaying skills I learnt from a Maltese bricklayer and an English bricklayer. My plastering skills. I I ran the moulded, you know, the really big, ornate moulded

 

Plaster cornices, I made them physically for some of the heritage jobs that I did. And I learnt that by cutting templates and running it with casting plaster and hemp that on a big flat bench. And I cast the ornate grapes and leaves. I used a rubber mould and moulded that in a crock pot from skills that I learnt from age-old craftsmen. But I will just shout out, often the people I know, they say, the older ones said, we had exceptional teachers.

 

and they were fantastic, but they did not have resources. But as soon as they were making things out in the workshop, it was a fantastic experience. So the digital transformation. this is why I think I'd like to think that our images are illustrations of craftsmanship as well. And shout out to MBA New South Wales. You know what got it over the line there with Tools™?

 

Jess Kismet (33:10)

Tell me.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (33:12)

It was the older tradesmen wanting everybody to know what they know. And they bothered to deep dive. And Tools™ is not an easy read for those people who've never bothered to look at the age, the song line of craft skills. They hadn't bothered. They just did it the way somebody had told them and it was rough enough. Two hinges on a solid core door and they wondered why it pulled off in three years time. You know? So all of this, all of this craftsmanship. So there's a, there are a number of

 

Jess Kismet (33:34)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (33:39)

directors of the MBA who were right behind the digital, the digitizing of craftsmanship and making sure that everybody in their organisations that they employ, but everybody downstream would be using Tools™ to achieve the craft they want. Craft is really important. Jess, it doesn't matter where you're coming from. You may be an engineer who's never pushed a hammer together, but there's nothing.

 

that nothing that tells me that he or she does not want the work to be done to a high level, which to me is skill and craftsmanship.

 

Jess Kismet (34:10)

Mm hmm. We've got, since COVID and the timber shortages, we've got an explosion of steel frame buildings in Australia. And you've got carpenters who are trained in timber framing, putting up steel frame buildings, steel framed homes. Do you think that some of the craftsmanship

 

Jerry Tyrrell (34:21)

Mmm.

 

Jess Kismet (34:28)

if learned during an apprenticeship, if you get lucky enough to learn under a builder that's got more than once, because I know that some builders or some host tradesmen will have like, they'll be first fixed carpenters and they'll do timber framing and not all of them are builders.

 

You know, you get, you get, if you get, if you train under a builder who's got more, who's got a multitude of skills, you learn more. But if then you get knocked on, you finish your apprenticeship and you're putting up steel frame buildings, you probably lose a little bit there.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (34:58)

But the principles, so you'll see in Tools™ I've got the science of. So I do want the basic principles behind why we do things. Nothing that tells me, I haven't installed many steel frames, the ones I have, I've stiffened the hinge side because it's a steel frame. And if it's not stiffened, so often I put a piece of timber in the hinge side of a jam because I know that on a heavy door that's gonna pull that lighter steel through. And there's a whole lot of.

 

specific craft skills to add to. It's called light steel steel framing technology, Lysaghts and BHP and I think it's Truecore. They've got, they're all over this as far as what's needed to be done. But I still think they need to communicate specifically the how-to of the craftsmanship of this new part of basically framing Australian buildings. And it's not a hard thing, but there are specific craft skills that need to be ported across. Do.

 

Jess Kismet (35:34)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (35:53)

Modern tradesmen know enough about that. They are being taught, excuse me, in their courses. They are being taught about that. Whether they're being taught why, I don't know. And that's where the older tradesmen hopefully can step across from their timber knowledge and say the reason why this is different is this way. The coupling between materials, even though it's different materials, still needs to be important. The fixing of your bottom and top plates still need to be centered at the 450 to 600.

 

No, made it exactly if it was timber.

 

Jess Kismet (36:25)

If you could redesign how construction is taught or understood in Australia, what would you change first?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (36:30)

Teaching construction. Okay, so I would, I wouldn't change much about the teacher quality. But what I would do, I would just, there are two things. I would put every single imperative to make sure that what they were teaching was supported by illustrations. And illustrations exactly, not the two dimensional 50 year old wrong sections used.

 

but proper illustrations. break aparts would be nice. I mean, we use some breakouts, some staged sequences in the Tools™, but I would like to take that even further, that you could build almost in sequence from start to finish. I'd like risk to be really profile. I'd like us to be, whenever we're learning, I'd like people to tell us exactly that this is a high risk thing. So...

 

you know, box gutters, for instance, that can tank and overflow. That jam stud, the hinge side stud in a jam needs to be stiff. So in everything we do, there's something that's a risk. I'd also like us to almost, the reason why I probably have had a trouble-free time is because I used to probably take a photograph with my eye of the good quality work that people did or I did myself. So I captured it. So I do want this whole idea, when you do it,

 

Jess Kismet (37:24)

Mm.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (37:49)

you need to keep track of the fact that, you know, if you haven't taken a photograph, you've checked it personally and it's done to a high standard. There was going to be something else I was going to say. I was just going to be saying that it would be really nice. I think, you know, I've been saying that the knowledge is a common knowledge base for architects, designers, engineers and craftsmen, certifiers. It's the same thing.

 

Jess Kismet (37:55)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (38:15)

At the moment, the syllabuses across the institutions and the TAFEs and even the high schools, it's inconsistent. So if I was to talk to the construction educators, please get together. So teamwork, we've got 1.2 million homes to build plus the associated community. Why not? And we've got to educate. And this is going to go on because Australia is the place to be.

 

turn our GDP and growth will really help us. But we need a common rail gauge of syllabus or taxonomy. So let's get the syllabus right, let's work collaboratively. If any of the TAFE teachers are there listening, don't take this as criticism, but I know about your currency and your competency requirements. It's different across all TAFEs and universities. It should be a common theme.

 

Jess Kismet (38:47)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (39:06)

You can all fix that. That'd be a wonderful item on your resume. It's going to make the teaching of what we're talking about, because Tools™ says it all, but it doesn't need to be explained different ways and fitted to different rail gauges to get the message across more simply and to get this trillion dollars worth of construction done skillfully and faster.

 

Jess Kismet (39:27)

Quick question, what's a rail gauge? Is that just terminology?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (39:29)

A rail gauge.

 

if it's any comfort, Australia used to have a number of different rail gauges because each state put in its own different rail gauge. So they had to have different trains in different states because you couldn't run a New South Wales train in to Victoria because it wouldn't fit on the railway. So if that's any... So my analogy there is at the moment we don't have a common Australia wide syllabus.

 

Jess Kismet (39:40)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (39:57)

for all things construction and design. And I would love that to be a mission for all of the educators out there. That is, I mean, I think Tools™ can fit to anything, can drive on any system, but I would love, I'd love the system of education to be based on a single syllabus across the nation. Very simple to fix.

 

Jess Kismet (40:00)

Mm-hmm.

 

It would also be nice if the National Construction Code was actually consistent as well. That'd be great. Yeah.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (40:25)

Yeah, yeah. Well, it is, but you've still got state variations, but wouldn't

 

it be nice if it worked if it was built up? Because it was a wonderful idea. But two volumes saying the second volume says the same thing. The Plumbing Code of Australia? Go figure. I love plumbers, but it doesn't deserve its own book. Basically, it's the subset. And sorry, and I have worked as a plumber and I'm dealing with some wonderful plumbing teachers. It doesn't deserve, electrician doesn't.

 

Jess Kismet (40:32)

Mm.

 

you

 

Jerry Tyrrell (40:53)

None of the trades deserve their own book because we all work together. It's part of the building. Okay. And everything else, everything that's outside the objection, the objective to build well, right, is found in the, in the wiring rules, in the authority rules, in the, all the plumbing authority rules, all of that stuff is findable. We do not need a separate code for plumbing. Sorry.

 

Jess Kismet (40:56)

Mm. Mm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (41:20)

And I will fight you for it in a loving way.

 

Jess Kismet (41:22)

You

 

heard it here folks. What else was I going to say? was going to say something about what's... Sorry, one of the bigger problems, like we've got your app, which is just a coverall. Just anyone in the construction industry can find the answers they need very quickly and there's really no excuses now. So get the app.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (41:24)

Yeah, loving loving thumb wrestle.

 

Jess Kismet (41:44)

people. But we still don't have enough inspections. So what are your thoughts on that? Because I think that South Australia has got the lowest rate of inspection in the entire country, which means that it's still...

 

Jerry Tyrrell (41:51)

Thank you.

 

Good call.

 

Okay,

 

resume time for all of the listeners. Imagine on your watch, it's a long game, but it could start instantaneously. No one, a person you don't trust, you cannot have them record quality for you. So you have to record the high risk items and we will be putting on Tools™ a quality icon of something that needs a photographic record or a slump test or a crack test or an acoustic test. We will be doing that. My dream is this.

 

None of, and I'm saying zero of my work needed inspecting except the engineering of a steel slab, the post tension, the post tension strands, those sort of things. The acoustic testing that needed to be, that needed to be tested. Timber treatment stuff that needed to be verified. None of my stuff needed inspected in, needed to be inspected. Imagine a world where the skills and the pride, which is not going to cost anything more.

 

is going to deliver a product that they can keep a record of that's findable in the new portal because the current New South Wales portal and these other portals are again a constipated mess. But imagine if the record of quality could be kept more easily, proudly, and that when we inspect, I see a subsill and say, that's so good, that's so cool. And you've got the photo. yes. You know, I see a

 

Jess Kismet (43:10)

You

 

Jerry Tyrrell (43:26)

I see every aspect of it, a fire damper correctly installed without anything penetrating the 200 millimetres to the fire damper. You know, and they've got a photograph and I say, whew, fantastic. I've done my job and I haven't had to defect it. And then we haven't had the horror story of the pain and shame of that defect. Quality is essential. The people doing quality are not going to get less work. They're just going to get enjoyable work.

 

And everybody downstream is no longer going to be wasting their Christmases and weekends doing unnecessary rectification and never getting a repeat job because their work is done exceptionally. And in five decades from now, everything you've done because it's getting more and more expensive to demolish and rebuild, people will look at that era and say, Jess did that, Jerry did that, Michael did that. ICON are doing it in Melbourne. They're using quality.

 

Jess Kismet (44:04)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (44:21)

as one of their calls to action. Taylor up here in New South Wales, there are so many people who want to get it right to start off with. And their work, yes it is inspected, but you know what? They're not finding anything wrong. It's wonderful.

 

Jess Kismet (44:38)

So what's next for the Tools™ app? You've mentioned a few things. What's directly in your sites?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (44:43)

Global, I want to do a global version, so I think global construction could all be the same thing. And I have put a shout out I've offered to my UAI people for Palestine and some of the Islamic cultures in Syria, because they need this because they're going to be rebuilding things badly in Ukraine. So I'd love there to be a global standard. The thing we're doing now is we're converting everything into an askable option.

 

which will be different from the generative AI that you can see now, which just gives text back. It will give text back, but it's also going to give the illustration, which is the heart of craftsmanship knowledge. And it's also going to prompt you because when I do a job, if I see something I might be able, I mean, I'll say, well, that's right, but have you considered that the falls outside what you've built well are going to flood the inside of your building? So we will be saying certain things.

 

will be trying to prompt people. Not only do they find what they want to find with our Ask, Ask Tools feature, but they'll also be prompted anything that they could miss. it's, and it's learning and they're going to get CPD points for learning and earning because they bothered to look and be curious. So those features are on the drawing board and they'll be soon coming. But at the moment you can find most of your answers quite readily.

 

And that's all I want to do. I want to see a mistake-free culture in building. And let's get on with making a lot of money, a lot more profit. I don't want to be commercial here, but most mistakes in building cost between $3,000 $30,000 a mistake. OK. So please think about this. If you can eliminate that, even if it's just, even if Tools™ just helps once a year, but I would say in the early years, you're going to use Tools™.

 

three to five times a month to get your knowledge base up and to also encourage your team to become scholarly and a craftsman. And then once you've got it there, if you never pull it out, you then know that, I've got it there. And it's almost like a badge of honor. But when you do pull it out, you're probably going to save yourself $3,000 by checking a dimension before it becomes an embarrassment that the certifier says, no, that's not okay.

 

Jess Kismet (46:54)

So every time you pull up the Tools™ out, you're saving money.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (46:56)

Yeah, and I don't want be, look, I'd have done this for nothing. Like I did with the treated timber and the chemicals and my works on various standards and getting the inspection process perfected, but it's wasted now because we're finding too much fault. You know, I did that for nothing, but I would do Tools™ for nothing. But obviously I do want to expand it and I do want to get this into a global, societal solution because I think when...

 

The world is built, when Australia is built well, it's fantastic. When the globe is built well, it's fantastic. Where there's going to be a lot more free money in the economy if we're not making mistakes and doing rework.

 

Jess Kismet (47:31)

Absolutely. Final question, Jerry. What is the one thing out of everything that you have learned that you want the listener to know if you had to pick one that you've learned in your career?

 

Jerry Tyrrell (47:39)

Don't give in to the negatives. Be great, all of you. Nothing has changed on the watch of most of the associations and politicians that I've looked at. And I've sent them letters, I've lobbied them. Nothing has changed. Please don't be negative. Don't give up. I'd love you guys to reach out to Jess, to reach out to me and just say, I made a difference here. We fixed the New South Wales portal. The portal's good.

 

There are so many things which we can do something about as long as we don't criticise and just give in. And if everybody does a little, say nobody does a lot. I'm expecting all of you to do a little and watch this space. I want to see a trillion dollars worth of really wonderful construction housing Australians faster because of people who are on this call. Thank you, Jess.

 

Jess Kismet (48:29)

Thank you so much, Jerry This has been an incredibly uplifting and energetic conversation. Your energy is absolutely infectious and I really appreciate your time. It's been really fun talking to you.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (48:41)

Thank you, Jess. Now we have given you a discount code, Jess20, and that allows you.

 

Jess Kismet (48:45)

Yes, I was just about to mention that. So anyone listening,

 

if you would like to download the Tools™ app and have a go, have a tour of it, you can also use the code "JESS20" discount code offered by Tools™ to The Building Sciology Poddie listeners. Thank you very much, Jerry. This has been great. Okay, bye.

 

Jerry Tyrrell (49:00)

Well done. Thank you, Jess. See you.