#31 - Concrete slabs and flooring failures with Don Consadine

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Well, concrete's like timber.
It's hygroscopic, so it absorbs

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moisture and it releases
moisture, so and it's like a

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sponge.
So yeah, it's it's very much

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like timber in that regard.
Hello and welcome to the

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Buildings Biology Party where we
talk about better buildings to

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live and breathe in.
Today we're diving into flooring

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and concrete.
Today's guest has been

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associated with the floor
covering industry for 40 years.

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He's considered to be one of the
industry's most respected and

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unbiased analysts.
His services are rendered to

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determine in an honest and
impartial manner if and what

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problems exist, who or what is
at fault, and to assist in

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determining resolutions.
Today's guest is Don Considine.

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I first encountered Don during
my advanced mould testing

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subject that I have been taking
in recent months with the

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Australian College of
Environmental Studies as part of

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my Diploma in Building Biology.
During Don's lectures, he took

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us through moisture testing of
concrete in depth and I thought

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this was something that we
needed to talk about on the

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podcast.
So welcome Don.

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Thank you.
Thanks, Jess.

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So glad to be here.
Excellent.

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So what is the standard day in
the office involve for you?

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Somebody in the flooring?
I don't come across people such

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as yourself in my day-to-day
work.

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So what?
What does your day involve?

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I.
Look on my day varies.

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I've got 2 grandsons who
although they live at home, they

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look after themselves.
So I get into the office between

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anywhere between 6:00 and 7:00
in my day.

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Yeah, and my day varies very
much.

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So I could be writing reports, I
could be going onto side, I

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could be doing moisture testing,
I could be going into state.

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I also do work overseas.
So it it just varies.

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But predominantly the majority
of my work is writing reports

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after I've done the inspection,
but it varies from job to job.

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So tell us about these
inspections.

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What exactly are you inspecting?
Look at So I inspect floor

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failures or I also get involved
before a flooring fails.

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So some of the bigger builders
use me to make sure that the

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project's going to run smoothly
so they'll engage me before the

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floor coverings are even
installed.

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So I might go to site, make sure
the slabs okay, make sure the

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moisture testing is being done
correctly.

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But the majority of my time is
spent on defective installations

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of vinyl, carpet, carpet, tiles,
timber, epoxy, coatings, just

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flooring in general, floor
remediation or sorry preparation

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in general.
So it's it, it completely

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varies.
So the but the majority of my

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job is going out after
something's failed and then

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doing an inspection, lifting up
the floor, maybe doing moisture

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testing and working out why the
products failed.

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Unfortunately the majority of my
complaints do revolve around

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installation failure, which is
which is unfortunate, but it

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does.
There is a lot of money spent on

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remediation of flooring in
Australia.

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And so when you say failure, you
obviously mean, you know,

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lifting, bubbling, mould, those
sorts of things.

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Well, yeah, look, I'm doing one
at the moment where mould was

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found the the slabs actually
sitting below the car park.

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So the water from the car park
appears to be coming into the

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the slab because it's below it
and there's some cracks in it.

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There's you know, I look at
flooring that's lifting have

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moisture can also cause planks
to shrink.

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So we get shrinkage the wrong
glue being used so it's not

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sticking the products down
properly.

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But look, the majority of my
work is moisture related

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flooring failures.
It's what I specialize in, but

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unfortunately it's also where
the biggest area of complaints

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are because unfortunately the
majority of contractors out

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there don't moisture test before
they do a job.

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A lot of it's lack of knowledge,
lack of training, some of it

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they just take a gamble and
think, you know, it hasn't

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happened to them, so they'll
take a chance.

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So I might digress to some
questions that pop into my head

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here.
Don hope that's all right, of

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course from my list.
Yep.

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In terms of training, is is
there anything inside like a a

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concreting apprenticeship or a
carpentry apprenticeship or

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anything that talks about
moisture testing?

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So there's a floor lying
apprenticeship and my younger

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son just finished his at the
start of this year.

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So that does go into moisture
testing.

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What you've got to remember is
with a, with an installer, he's

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going out to lay the job.
He's not quoting the job

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generally.
So he goes out to a job and he

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expects that it's going to be
OK.

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Moisture testing needs to be
done before he or she gets to

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site.
So the flooring contractor or

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retailer should really be doing
a moisture test a day or a week

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before they go to site and
saying yes, the slab is OK or

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no, it's not.
That needs a moisture barrier.

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But unfortunately, most layers
go to site.

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They lay it.
Some of them don't even

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understand that moisture testing
is required domestically.

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It's also very hard.
I mean, it's not extremely

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expensive, but with a
residential job that might only

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be a couple of $1000, it does
add to the cost.

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So people will take a chance and
just go, oh look, it's only a

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couple of $1000, but the
remediation costs are normally

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triple what the original cost
was.

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Yeah, definitely.
So you mentioned, you know that

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moisture testing should be done
a couple of weeks before the

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floors go down.
Is that that across the board,

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like commercial residential
projects that doesn't vary?

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Look, it varies all the time to
be honest.

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I mean, we do the large
supermarkets and they normally

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get us in like a month or so
beforehand because they're doing

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a refurb.
So they'll get us in so that

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they can prepare that.
If it needs a moisture barrier,

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they can prepare for that so
that obviously they don't shut

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the whole supermarket when they
do it.

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They do it in sections, so
they'll know that, OK, we need a

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moisture barrier for this job.
So they prepare Mr. and Mrs.

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Smith, the layer will go out
expecting that the slab's ready.

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He'll just go and lay over it.
Some people engage us because

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the contractors told them that
they need a moisture barrier,

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but, you know, it might cost a
lot more money.

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And they go, oh, we just want to
make sure that the contract is

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not trying to take advantage of
them.

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So they get us in there to do
secondary testing.

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But it should be done
beforehand.

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But there are times where we do
it after the fact, after it's

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failed.
The standard does say, the two

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standards, ASAT 94 and 2455,
both say the testing should be

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done before the flooring slide.
Now, it can be done the day

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before, but a moisture barrier
can take a couple of days to put

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down.
So if you only do it a day

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before, then you may not have
the time to do that and for it

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to cure.
Yeah.

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And sometimes if you're doing
core drilling, core drill

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testing, take 24 to 48 hours to
get results from, right?

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Yeah.
The the institute probe tests

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that we do was ASTM 2170.
You drill into the slab with a

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19 mil drill bit and in our case
you drill to a depth of either

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40% or 20% depending on the slab
is suspended or on ground or

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metal decking.
You leave a sensor in.

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The equipment we use has got a
sensor built in.

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You put it in the slab, you come
back 24 hours later and you take

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a result.
There are other test methods

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which we can't.
We also use.

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There's the calcium chloride
test method, which is a surface

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test.
Now that's used when you can't

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drill into the slab.
So there could be in floor

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heating and there could be
electrical wiring.

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There could be some reason you
can't drill into the slab.

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There could be penetrative
moisture barriers which you

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can't do the Institute pride
test.

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So you do the calcium chloride
test which measures the moisture

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vapor emission rate out of the
slab.

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There's also surface test meter.
Now, the surface test meter is

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probably the most widely used
because it's cheap and quick.

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The problem is that it's based
around an ASTM 2659 standard

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guide, and that actually says in
it that it's not a go no go test

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method.
People use it because it's quick

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and easy.
The other problem with it is

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that there are hundreds of these
surface meters out there.

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The surface meter we use which
is a Tramex meter has a maximum

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ceiling of 6.9%.
Other meters have maximum of

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10/11, a hundred, 1300.
So you can't compare those

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meters against each other.
Remediators use the surface

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meter as well and I was on the
Australian standards for mould

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and water restoration and they
have a different requirement of

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what they consider dry to what
they they work with an IRCRC

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standard which doesn't really
take into account floor

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coverings.
Whereas obviously when you're

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laying a floor covering you've
got to a completely different

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standard and a completely
different requirement.

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So you've got to be careful.
Builders need to be careful that

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when they're doing a remediation
and the remediator hands it back

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and says it's dry, they don't
necessarily mean it's dry enough

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for floor coverings to be
installed, it's just dry enough

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to meet a the IRC standard.
Interesting.

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So could you explain what the
ICRC is please?

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Well, it's, look, I'm not an
expert on this.

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I was on there for the floor
covering side of it, but it's a,

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a moulding restoration standard.
So it talks about drawing the

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building envelope, how to do
that and goes into a lot of

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technical stuff that I, I don't
get involved in.

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But that requirement is again,
they have to get it to a

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certain, you know, plaster and
the floor and all that have to

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be a certain standard.
And most of that is done with

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surface meter testing when it
comes to the floor.

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And obviously when it comes to
floor coverings, it's the

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institute probe test is the main
test that's mainly used in

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Australia now.
So we are comparing, we, we did

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try to get to get more involved
with, get floor coverings, more

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involved in the IRCRC standard.
But because it's actually

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controlled overseas, we couldn't
do that.

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So we are looking at the moment,
we're actually I'm on the

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Australian Standards Committee
for, we're coming up with a

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moisture testing handbook.
We did look at a standard, but

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the trouble with the standard
was that the equipment's not

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made in Australia.
So to come up with a standard

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that overseas are going to
recognize would have been very

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difficult.
So what we've done is we're

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putting a handbook together now,
which we hope will be finished

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by the end of the year, early
next year, which will go through

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all the different test methods,
how to do them, what they give

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you.
We won't tell you which one to

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use because manufacturers can
vary.

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So you have to rely on that.
But hopefully it'll give you all

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the information of where to put
them, how often to do them.

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And you know all, all the
information you'll need so that

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someone can go out and do it, do
it themselves.

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And, and builders can check to
make sure that it is being done

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correctly because a lot of time,
some of the equipment doesn't

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meet the requirements or people
don't test for long enough.

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You know, our testing is done
over 24 hours.

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Some people might do it for an
hour and say, you know, some

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equipment says it's within 5%
within an hour, but we still

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wait the 24.
So it's, it's a training.

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It's also going to be a training
document for apprentices and

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things like that.
So we're quite excited when it's

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when it's going to be finished.
Oh, you'd have to send me a link

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or a copy or something when it
comes out.

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And I definitely send it out,
add it, add it as show notes,

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even if if it's if this episode
hasn't yet been released.

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No, that's all right.
Yeah, that'll be great.

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The, the testing, the there's 2
two types of testing that you

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took us through in the mold
course, the mold advanced mold

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testing. 1 was the core drilling
and one was the surface meter.

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So we use surface meters as part
of our studies.

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You just put the meter on a
surface and it tells you wet or

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dry basically.
Or it can give you, depending on

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the settings, it can give you a
rating.

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00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,440
The other one is the core
drilling to a certain depth.

228
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,680
Can builders themselves or
trades themselves buy these kits

229
00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:06,240
online and do the testing
themselves?

230
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,280
Or do they have to engage a
contractor, a specialist, to

231
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:10,640
come out and do that testing for
them?

232
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,160
Look, they can certainly buy the
equipment.

233
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,440
The equipment I buy is it's out
of the States, but I buy it from

234
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,760
a company called Kevmore and WA
and they get me the equipment

235
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,800
when I need it overnight.
So it can certainly be done by

236
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,200
the builder.
The issue for the builder

237
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,920
becomes is when they're trying
to get a variation from their

238
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,640
end client that, you know, on a
commercial job, it could be 50 a

239
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,320
hundred $200,000.
The end clients reticent to

240
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,160
accept the builders test results
because it's in their interest

241
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,960
to get that variation.
So a lot of time they'll get me

242
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,400
in just to secondary tests to
make sure that they're they're

243
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,560
not being ripped off.
But you know, the standard says

244
00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:51,240
that the testing must be done by
a competent person.

245
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,080
Now, competent is, you know,
really difficult, but to be

246
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,880
honest, if I'm a builder and
I've been in the industry for a

247
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,880
long time, I can drill a hole in
the floor and I can follow these

248
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,440
videos online and look, we're
always happy to.

249
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:08,080
I've done training for flooring
contractors and even

250
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,960
presentations for builders to
help them through that because I

251
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,680
mean, we can't test every slab
out there.

252
00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:17,040
We do a lot of testing.
It keeps us very busy, so.

253
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,880
But yeah, where there is the
backup or when you needed

254
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,080
someone certified to do it.
Yeah, I guess getting someone

255
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,280
independent is always better if
you need proof of something.

256
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,040
But when you were taking us
through the testing and you had

257
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,240
the kit and all the bits and
paces and you just drilled, I

258
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,320
thought to myself, it looks
pretty straightforward to do.

259
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,680
And although you know, the
destructive testing is is always

260
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,920
not really desirable, the
process itself doesn't look too,

261
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,880
too tricky.
It just takes time.

262
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,840
Don't give away our secrets.
It look isn't difficult and it's

263
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,200
like anything once you've done
it like I've done thousands and

264
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,040
thousands of tests.
So it's second nature.

265
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,640
But we train people here to do
it because I mean I'm, I'm not

266
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,400
as young as I used to be.
So we do have others here and

267
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,880
they go out some and they can
learn very quickly.

268
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,120
It's all about when you're
drilling into a slab.

269
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,560
We have a scanner here so you
can hit Rio.

270
00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,560
So we scan the floor beforehand
to make sure we don't hit steel

271
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,400
reinforcement or any power.
There shouldn't be much power in

272
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,360
a concrete slab, but just in
case.

273
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,520
So we do that if we're doing a
large supermarket, they actually

274
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,760
get the floor scanned for
services for us.

275
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,240
But it it look, it's not a
difficult test if you've got the

276
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,400
right equipment.
And we use the Wagner equipment

277
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,680
for moisture testing.
It's got a built in sensor.

278
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,480
You drill the hole, you put it
in, you come back the next day.

279
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,320
You can take an instant read.
Some of the other equipment

280
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:37,280
don't have the built in sensor.
You've got to come back the next

281
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,000
day and then wait for to
calibrate within the slab the

282
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,760
sensor.
And that can take up to a couple

283
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,040
of hours.
But that equipment is also

284
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,080
cheaper because they're
reusable, whereas the equipment

285
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,560
we use isn't reusable, but we
use it for a couple of reasons.

286
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:54,040
One, it's very quick the next
day, but also it's it's

287
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,960
calibrated when we put it in the
hole.

288
00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,480
We don't have to go back every
three months or six months or

289
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,560
worry about calibration period.
And look, I've been using that

290
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:04,720
equipment for 10-15 years and
it's very reliable.

291
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,960
They're based in the States.
They always come back to me with

292
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:08,680
information.
The equipment is easy to get

293
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,440
from Perth.
Trimex also makes them a good

294
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,240
equipment and I use one of their
meters for the surface testing

295
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,680
and then there's calcium
chloride testing which those

296
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:18,680
kits we also get from the same
place in Perth.

297
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:21,640
We get have more in Perth.
Is that the one where you weigh

298
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,200
the beets?
Yes, that's right.

299
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,680
The calcium chloride pellets, so
they absorb moisture out of the

300
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,840
slab and then they obviously
increase the weight.

301
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,240
So you weigh them beforehand and
then after 60 to 72 hours, we

302
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,400
are doing more and more of that.
We used to do hardly any, but

303
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,920
because of the moisture
suppressants that are being used

304
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,240
on concrete slabs, we are just
starting to do more of of those

305
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,720
now.
And if moisture suppressant do

306
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,120
you know?
Do you want me to guess what a

307
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,320
moisture suppressant is?
Yeah, a couple of questions

308
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,000
popped into my head then, but
that was one of them.

309
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,120
So yes, please.
Sorry.

310
00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:00,200
So look, there's products out
there that you spray them on and

311
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,920
they get absorbed into the slab
and they turn into like a gel

312
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,560
and they're supposed to hold the
moisture in the slab so that it,

313
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,320
it's, it comes out much more
slowly.

314
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,760
And in that case, you can't use
the in situ probe test because

315
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,280
in theory that it's trapping the
moisture in the slab.

316
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,280
And if we drilled in and used a
sensor, it would be high the

317
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,880
calcium chloride.
And if you prepare the floor,

318
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,000
you put these down for 60 to 72
hours and then it, it part of it

319
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,600
actually with draws the moisture
out of the slab, the moisture

320
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,040
vapor out of the slab and gives
you a result.

321
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,080
It's look, it's a test that's
been around, I think in the US

322
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,440
since the 1950s.
A lot of people don't like it,

323
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,080
but it's, you know, there's when
it comes to a surface test, we

324
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,360
find that it's quite good, but
we're not been using that for

325
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,240
over 10 years as well.
Very easy to stuff up if you

326
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,000
spill your beads.
Look, it's and I have learned my

327
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,320
lesson there because it is.
It does form like a vacuum and

328
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,920
there was one time when I tried
to pull the kit out up and I

329
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,200
took it off and the vacuum was
so the boot beads went

330
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,720
everywhere.
So what we do now is we cut the

331
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,280
top of the kit or the plastic
Dome and that releases the air

332
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:08,880
pressure and then it comes out
that way.

333
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,360
But you know, if you're clumsy
and you do drop it, well, then

334
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,960
that kit, you can't use that.
Even if you drop a couple of

335
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,040
pellets out it, it's obviously
it's, it's void the test.

336
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,000
So you it's a it's not a
difficult test, but you have to

337
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,040
go to site three times.
So it's a five day test.

338
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,120
You prepare the floor the first
day, you put the kit down on the

339
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,320
second day, and then you go back
60 to 72 hours later.

340
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,680
So it has to be done on a Monday
or a Thursday to fit in with

341
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,440
that time frame.
It's a look, it's a, it's an

342
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,400
easy test and it's there for a
reason, but.

343
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,320
If you stuff it up, you lose 5
days.

344
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,920
That's right.
And look, even with the in situ

345
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,640
pride test, you could drill too
far into the slab or you could

346
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,280
drill too shallow.
We, we photograph everything we

347
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:51,720
do.
So when we drill a hole with

348
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,640
that, we measure it.
We take a photo of the

349
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,440
measurement to show we've
drilled to the right depth.

350
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,560
We take photos of the holes.
We do all that.

351
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,120
And look, everyone should do the
same thing.

352
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,160
Because if something happens in
six months and you're saying, Oh

353
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,640
yeah, I tested and it was 70,
well, what's, what's your proof?

354
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,319
We have thousands of photos here
for that reason.

355
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,079
So we can say, well, on this day
we tested it and it was this.

356
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:16,160
So what is the acceptable
moisture level in a concrete

357
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,520
slab for laying floors?
Because so the the stand and it

358
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,480
has default settings.
So all through the both

359
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,040
standards it says manufacturers
instructions.

360
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,760
So it hazes are becoming more
moisture tolerant leveling

361
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,720
compounds as well.
So the standard says

362
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,440
manufacturers instructions all
through it.

363
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,120
And obviously if you've got say
a vinyl floor that can go up to

364
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,440
80%, you've got a levelling
compound that go up to 85%,

365
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,800
you've got an adhesive then go
up to 90%, you go with the

366
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,880
lowest.
So the the vinyl can only take

367
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,440
80%.
So you go with the 80%.

368
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,720
Sometimes the adhesive
manufacturer and the vinyl

369
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,040
manufacturer will get together
and go, well, OK, we'll allow

370
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,280
for 85% because the glue can
withstand that.

371
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,040
So that does vary.
But the standard on for

372
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,720
resilient flooring is 80% is the
default.

373
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,120
So if the manufacturer doesn't
give you a figure, you go with

374
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:15,200
80% with the carpet standard,
it's 75% with the in situ probe

375
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,840
test or it's 80% with the hood
test.

376
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,240
Actually there might be 70 and
75 now.

377
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,840
I think it's 75 and 80.
The hood test is nobody uses it

378
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,800
anymore.
It was has been around for

379
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,160
decades, so they were reticent
to take it out of the standard,

380
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,640
but it's hardly used anymore.
Quite.

381
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:38,280
It's a bit more difficult to do.
The equipment's not readily

382
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,320
available in Australia anymore,
but a couple of people still do

383
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,480
use it.
There's not many manufacturers

384
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,720
that have that measurement in
there, but the standard calls

385
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:51,880
for 3 lbs 1000 square feet over
20 per 24 hours and but that can

386
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,240
go up to five and some products
go up to more than that.

387
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,720
That's moisture vapor emission
rate.

388
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,840
With the surface meter, because
I mentioned before, because

389
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,720
every meter or a lot of meters
have different ceilings.

390
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,160
The tray Max meter that I use
for instance, ceiling a 6.9,

391
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,440
they say 3 and above 3 1/2 to 4
is considered wet.

392
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,440
But other meters, you know, it
all varies where you've got

393
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,400
meters like up to 1000.
So obviously that varies.

394
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,200
It's, it's what it's measuring
some of the measure difference,

395
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,640
some are capacitance, some are
electrical resistance.

396
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,280
So it's really up to the
manufacturer of that equipment

397
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,840
to tell you what's considered
wet and dry.

398
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,560
But the trouble with the surface
meter test is you won't find any

399
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,280
resilient or carpet or carpet
manufacturers that quote that

400
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,600
standard.
So if you're using that test

401
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,280
meter and you something happens,
well then you're going to be in

402
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,360
trouble because they won't
accept.

403
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,280
But that was a testament.
Yeah, So moisture testing, the

404
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,720
surface testing is only really a
qualitative measure, like it's

405
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,240
like an indicator and the.
Indicative, yeah.

406
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,840
And the.
Inside that the Australian

407
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,440
Australasian Timber Flooring
Association, ATFA, still do

408
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,760
recognize surface meter testing
for timber floors.

409
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,440
Now there is one of the people
on the ATFA committee is on the.

410
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,280
Moisture testing handbook with
us and they I think from that

411
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,600
they are maybe looking at
changing that but I can't speak

412
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,080
on their behalf currently.
They do allow surface meter

413
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,560
testing as well as institute pro
testing.

414
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,720
OK.
And how deep the surface meters

415
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,680
measure from the surface.
Well, it depends who you talk

416
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,040
to, but between 10/15/20 mil.
So the problem with the other

417
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,360
problem with that is that the
driest part of a concrete slab

418
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,560
is the surface.
So you're measuring the driest

419
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,680
part of the slab.
What the in situ probe test is

420
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,560
doing.
It's, it's actually a predictive

421
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,640
test.
So it's predicting what's going

422
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,760
to happen with the moisture in
the slab when you put a floor

423
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,160
covering in it.
So it's for me, it's, it's, it's

424
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,280
a very good test of people all
around the world that love and

425
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,720
hate different test methods and
they're all got reasons for

426
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,400
that.
But what I can say is I've never

427
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,400
tested a floor with in situ
probe test and said it's dry and

428
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,680
had a, but you know the surface
meter test, we have had testing

429
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,520
done with surface meters and
then we test it with the in situ

430
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,880
probe test and there's in situ
probe test will say it's wet and

431
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,400
the surface meter will say it's
dry.

432
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,160
So we go with the obviously in
situ protest surface meter can

433
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,400
also because it does penetrate
into the into the concrete can

434
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,160
also be affected by aggregate
and re steel reinforcement.

435
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,680
Now steel reinforcement
shouldn't be that close to the

436
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,680
surface, but there are times
when it is and obviously it

437
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,600
works it's conductive so that
more moisture in a slab the

438
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,400
higher the rating.
So they, but it's, it's look,

439
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,040
it's, it's a, it's a test, good
test for a quick result.

440
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,000
We use it when we're doing in
situ probe test to go around and

441
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,520
check the wettest part of the
floors and do testing that way.

442
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,360
The other thing that people get
wrong is I see them all the time

443
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:43,240
with the surface meter test on
top of a vinyl flooring measure

444
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,560
the concrete.
The standard is very clear.

445
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,760
It has to go on on the bare
concrete.

446
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,080
So if someone's testing through
the vinyl or the vinyl total

447
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,920
floor covering, that's not
that's not meeting the standard

448
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,600
requirement and it's could
affect the results.

449
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,080
So when we go around and do mold
testing, like moisture mapping

450
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,400
in a house mold, we put the
meter, the surface meter

451
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,640
directly on top of tiles or
whatever flooring there is.

452
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,400
So in that instance, that's
different, right?

453
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,120
Because all we're doing is
saying is there moisture there?

454
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,200
Is there not moisture there?
Is that right?

455
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,200
Look, it depends on the meter I
suppose, but it does.

456
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,440
They do say that it does affect
the results.

457
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,480
Now I'm not saying it's not
going to give you some

458
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,840
indication, but we tried it
here.

459
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,280
We had some of the vinyl tiles
that you see in the cold

460
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,080
Woolworths supermarkets and we
tested it on top of the tile and

461
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,400
then we took the tile out and
there was like a 2% difference.

462
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,960
Now I'm not saying that's going
to happen with every meter, but

463
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,560
it does rely on a conduct like,
you know, it conducts the way it

464
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,000
conducts the the waves through
the with the concrete.

465
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,200
So that's obviously affected and
broken when there's a vinyl

466
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,000
flooring down.
So it's not AI couldn't tell you

467
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,720
for sure depending on the meter,
but I know with our meter it

468
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,960
certainly affected the results
with the flooring still on it.

469
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,440
OK.
And if it was tiles or

470
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,560
floorboards, would that be
different again?

471
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,800
We'll see Floorboards.
So you mean timber floorboards

472
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,160
that are the subfloor or timber
sitting on top of a concrete

473
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,000
floor?
Sorry, timber sitting.

474
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,680
Anything sitting on concrete.
Does the type of flooring affect

475
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,680
the reading?
Well, if you're trying to

476
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,760
measure the concrete through a
timber floor, I mean a lot of

477
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,680
those timber floors are you
know, 10121420 mil thick.

478
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,080
So you're probably not even
testing the concrete.

479
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,960
You're more than likely testing
the timber.

480
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,680
In saying that, obviously
moisture, if there's moisture

481
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,880
there, it's going to come up the
timber.

482
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,360
So it may give you a higher
result for that reason.

483
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:30,400
Which is interesting because you
would have your moisture meter

484
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,520
set on concrete, not timber.
That is right, so well it will

485
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,240
be wrong.
And look, the meter we use, the

486
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,920
Tramex meter, does have concrete
and timber, but the timber

487
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,360
requires us to put pins on it.
So it's an instant attachment

488
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,640
and a hammer attachment and you
put the pins into the timber.

489
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,560
It doesn't give us a surface
reading.

490
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,600
So we it wouldn't be an accurate
test, but it would be

491
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,800
interesting to try.
I'm sure that it would probably

492
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,880
pick up a wetter spot with
timber, even sit on concrete,

493
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:00,800
but I haven't tried it to be
honest.

494
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,040
Okay, so let's move on from the
meters.

495
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,760
How long does your does a
residential concrete slab take

496
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,800
to cure properly?
So there's many documents out

497
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,000
there about an inch a month and
Cement, concrete and aggregates

498
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,920
Australia did a document saying,
you know, it's an inch a month.

499
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,320
I'm not saying that's not
correct, but it's there's many

500
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,960
things that affect it, like for
instance, the water cement ratio

501
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,760
of the concrete slab when it was
first poured, most are about

502
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,400
.5%.
However, you know, being in the

503
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,360
in the sun too long or they put
more water in it.

504
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,440
And obviously so there's a lot
of excess water in a concrete

505
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,640
mix.
It's used to make it more

506
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,560
workable, but it's not actually
required other than to make it

507
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,640
more workable.
So it can really vary.

508
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,000
So the inch a month cement
concrete neglets also say that

509
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,640
that's for 100 mil slab.
Once you go to 150 mil slab,

510
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,320
that's triple, double or triple.
Then you go to a 200 mil slab,

511
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,240
it extends it again, as I say to
everyone that's from the light,

512
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,680
you start measuring it from the
last time it got wet.

513
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,120
So you know you've got a slab
sitting out there in the rain

514
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:06,640
that's been there for six months
with no rain and then it pours

515
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,520
with rain for a week.
It's basically back to 100.

516
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,560
So you start again.
It's is something that people

517
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,760
don't understand.
We go into commercial buildings

518
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,440
that don't have the root the
roof in or don't have the walls

519
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,200
in, don't have the windows in
and they ask us to test because

520
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,960
they're trying, They know it's
going to be high, but they need

521
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,840
a variation.
And look, we've never found a

522
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,240
slab under 12 months old that
has 12 to 18 months old that

523
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,440
meets the requirements of any of
the standards.

524
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,040
So the inch a month I maybe
concrete when they bought the

525
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,520
document out was different.
Or maybe it's just, you know,

526
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,920
everything's built a lot quicker
nowadays as well as you know, so

527
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,520
it's yeah, but we I mean people
come to us constantly and say,

528
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,960
oh, you know, inch a month and
we go, well, you know, our

529
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,800
experience is that it's not
going to be in each a month And

530
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,640
most no, nowadays you've got
yeah, you've got waffle pads as

531
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,160
well domestically now, so they
might be I think they're about

532
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,120
8085 mil thick on the thin part,
but at the deep part they're 303

533
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:05,400
eighty.
They'll fix.

534
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,240
So they're going to obviously
hold more moisture, but again,

535
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,680
they sit out in the rain for a
while before they start building

536
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,840
on it as well.
Didn't actually occur to me that

537
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,280
slabs would be that affected by
rain once they are what I would

538
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,200
deem as cured, you know, I know
it affects timber and timber

539
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,000
goes mouldy.
I hadn't transferred that to

540
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,840
concrete.
Well, concrete's like timber.

541
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,600
It's hygroscopic, so it absorbs,
it absorbs moisture and it

542
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,200
releases moisture.
So and it's like a sponge.

543
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,040
When I was doing the moisture
testing course, I brought a

544
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,520
sponge along and they used that
as an example how it absorb and

545
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,520
releases moisture.
So yeah, it's it's very much

546
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,880
like timber in that regard.
So we're, you know, leaving

547
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,200
slabs out to cure for, I don't
know, a couple weeks and then

548
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,760
we're putting frames on them.
So by what you're saying is we

549
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,920
are trapping a heck of a lot of
moisture inside our construction

550
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,720
as as a standard in Australia?
Look, we are.

551
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,760
And the other thing, sorry, the
one thing I did forget to

552
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,840
mention is the surface finish.
Now when you go to a commercial

553
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,480
installation especially, they
like to power trail the surface

554
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,040
of the concrete to get it rock
hard to get the MPA they

555
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,960
require.
That burnished surface is

556
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,520
basically nearly impervious.
So it's not releasing moisture

557
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,120
from the slab.
And that's one of the biggest

558
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:17,280
things we found.
We did some testing on a slab

559
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,000
over near the airport and we
tested it for three years and it

560
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,160
was highly burnished and it
dropped 3% in three years.

561
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,240
And it was just a test done for
someone.

562
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,960
It was only drying from one
side, but it just proved that

563
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,640
the moisture just couldn't get
out.

564
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,160
And so that also has to be taken
into account as well.

565
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,120
Plus you can't glue over.
There's very few products that

566
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:40,640
you can glue to a burnished
slab.

567
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,680
It's like trying to stick to
glass.

568
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,560
So if a builder comes to me and
says how can I get the slab to

569
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,280
dry quicker, the first thing we
say is we'll grind the slab to

570
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,280
get the burnish off.
The trouble is obviously

571
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,560
grinding's not cheap.
And then the other tradesmen

572
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,720
come in, they spill paint and
plaster all over it.

573
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,240
You've got to grind it again.
The builder doesn't want to

574
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,400
grind it again.
But a moisture barrier is not

575
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,000
cheap.
Sometimes grinding it twice

576
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,080
would be cheaper than the
moisture.

577
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,760
Barrier.
So if you have a burnished slab

578
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,480
and there's moisture trapped
inside that slab, doesn't do

579
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:14,360
multiples grow inside the slab?
Not a mold expert, but not.

580
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,880
If the moisture is trapped, is
that a problem?

581
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,160
Yeah.
What's high, very high

582
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,520
alkalinity within the concrete.
I no, not an expert on mold.

583
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,320
I you would have to ask someone.
I don't think so.

584
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,720
I've never seen mold just grow
on a concrete slab.

585
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,520
It's normally where, you know,
the timber butts up to the

586
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,520
concrete and it's when it's been
sitting there for a long time.

587
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,520
I've never personally seen in
all my time at concrete slab

588
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,200
that's got mold.
Just got mold on it.

589
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,480
Yeah, however.
Yeah.

590
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,760
But obviously with timber and
the furniture and that sort of

591
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,880
stuff on it, yes, mold does grow
in it.

592
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,120
And we've got a couple of jobs
going at the moment with mold

593
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,000
growth where it's really got
into the timber from there.

594
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,240
It's time for a quick sponsor
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595
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,200
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596
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597
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598
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599
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600
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,840
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601
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602
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603
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,920
So just to go back to my
question, if there's if there's

604
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,640
a Burmish slab and the moisture
is trapped, is that a problem?

605
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,160
Because if it can't get out and
it's not going to create

606
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,840
humidity issue inside a
conditioned space or a home,

607
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,040
does that matter?
Well, it does look, it does

608
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,320
matter because obviously it's
not releasing the moisture

609
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,360
straight away.
It's it'll, I suppose it depends

610
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,920
on what flooring you're putting
over the top.

611
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,560
But if you're gluing anything to
it, it's got to come off anyway

612
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,600
to make the floor porous because
it hazes and levelling compounds

613
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,640
need a porous slab.
There are some products out

614
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,600
there that can go over a non
porous slab, but the majority of

615
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,240
products require it to be able
to key to the slab.

616
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,040
So it is a problem.
And as I said, we always

617
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,760
recommend removing that to get
the slab to dry quicker.

618
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,480
But the builders like to get
that heavily trailed finished to

619
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,320
get the MPA up to because
they've got certain requirements

620
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,840
as well.
And look, we've spoken to many

621
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,080
builders over the years.
The concreter doesn't care about

622
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,640
the floor covering going over
the top.

623
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,760
They just, they've got a spec to
meet and that's all they care

624
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,640
about.
When we've spoken, sat down and

625
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,960
spoken to some of them and why
we need the slab to be maybe not

626
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,440
as burnished, they understand.
But they say, well look, we

627
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,960
understand that, but we've got
our own specification to meet

628
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,200
and we need to burnish it.
And look, in America, I know at

629
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,800
one stage they were looking at
wood trail finish on concrete

630
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,920
slabs to make them dry quicker.
I'm not sure if that's still

631
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,160
happening, but they were, they
did try it for a while.

632
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,760
They've tried quicker drying
concrete as well, but that I

633
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,280
haven't seen any of that in
Australia.

634
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,120
OK, so cracks in concrete worry
a lot of people.

635
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,400
What causes cracks in concrete
and when are they actually a

636
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,160
problem versus just being
cosmetic?

637
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,720
Look, most once you see a
surface cracks and they could be

638
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,560
from curing, they could be just
from movement.

639
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,680
I mean, some of the buildings in
the city, some of the big

640
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,000
buildings in the city have got
scary cracks in them, but you

641
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,480
know, they get engineers in to
check those out to make sure

642
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,640
they're OK.
If you've got a slab on, you

643
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,560
know, when you slab with a, with
a house, you'll generally always

644
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,120
find cracks in them.
You know, especially when you

645
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,320
pour them in summer and they're
in 3040° heat, there's a heavy

646
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,560
chance of them cracking.
Surface cracks aren't that big a

647
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,680
problem, but obviously if
they're deeper than that, which

648
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,920
you know, might need to do a
core hole to test that.

649
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,200
But in general, most of the
cracks that we deal with are,

650
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,640
you know, they can be treated,
but they can be, there are

651
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,280
treatments or epoxies you can
put in for moisture.

652
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,800
There are other treatments you
can do.

653
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,480
Some of the manufacturers have
tight carbon fiber tie systems

654
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,400
that you can use for cracks and
trenches and things like that.

655
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,240
Look, I would, again, that's
something for a structural

656
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,400
engineer and we do get them in
quite often.

657
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,680
If they just did one recently
where there were cracks

658
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,320
everywhere and they came in and
they took measurements and did

659
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,760
whatever testing they did to
make sure the slab was okay.

660
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,440
There was also a lot of
deflection in this particular

661
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,480
slab.
There's a lot of movement which

662
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,240
had caused the issues so they
put some carbon fibre ribbons

663
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,960
down which helped to which I
hadn't seen before to be honest,

664
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,600
but they helped to strengthen
the slab so it could take

665
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,400
increased weights.
Carbon fibre ribbons?

666
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,160
What's that?
Look, it's again, it's the first

667
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,360
time I've seen it, but it's it's
it's, I don't know, about two,

668
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,000
probably 3 inches wide and you
stick it to the floor and it's

669
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,120
helps with the deflection of the
slab.

670
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,960
So it's.
Basically like like a, like a,

671
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,280
like a patch, like a.
You know, like when you cut your

672
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:31,880
head.
Quite long though, these were,

673
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,160
some of these were 10, 10 meters
long and they Criss cross across

674
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,920
the floor and they're obviously
quite.

675
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,600
Yeah, bracing.
And they put it above and below

676
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,800
the slab too.
So it is a bracing system.

677
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:43,520
Yeah.
OK.

678
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,600
It's the very first time I've
ever seen it used.

679
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:46,760
Yeah.
Yeah.

680
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,480
I can give you some more
information on that.

681
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,120
I don't know anything about it
myself.

682
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,840
I was just, as I said, first
time I saw it.

683
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,200
Yeah.
That'd be interesting.

684
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,840
It'd be interesting to learn
more about with this, like sort

685
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,960
of new, new, new things being
learnt about how to stop

686
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,600
cracking in concrete slabs.
You know, we want to, we want to

687
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,240
know about it.
Yeah, definitely.

688
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,840
Don, what are the most common
errors you see builders or

689
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,680
trades making with concrete and
how do you think that we can

690
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,800
avoid that?
Well, the most, the most common

691
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,000
is two things.
One, they don't moisture test.

692
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,840
I mean that look, that's really
the biggest.

693
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,000
They run the gauntlet or they
don't know or they don't think

694
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,480
it's required.
And some builders sign contracts

695
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,760
where they're responsible for
the moisture if there's a

696
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,040
moisture issue in the slab
because they don't know enough

697
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,200
about it.
So of course then there's a

698
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,200
moisture, then there's high
moisture in the slab, which we

699
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,840
would have could have told them
and they could be up for

700
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,440
10/20/50, a $100,000.
So they'll do whatever it takes

701
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,520
to try and not have to pay that
money.

702
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,000
Whereas those that included, you
know, don't include it in there.

703
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,120
And so there could be a
variation.

704
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,280
They don't seem to mind as much.
So it's moisture test well

705
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,360
understanding moisture and floor
coverings, for instance, that

706
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,040
you know, adhesives are getting
better moisture tolerant, but

707
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,680
they're still, you know, with
with enough moisture and

708
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,440
alkalinity, they can break down.
So if they understand that the

709
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,520
other thing with they get the
floor layers in too quick in

710
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,840
commercially anyway, the last
thing that should go into a

711
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,719
commercial building is the floor
coverings.

712
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,800
And yet it goes in while they're
still plastering, while they're

713
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,880
still painting.
So it goes down probably a

714
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,280
couple of months earlier than it
could have.

715
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,480
So there's slabs still wet,
you've got painters and stuff

716
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,360
working all over it.
So they put plastic protection

717
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,239
down.
That plastic protection gets

718
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,000
damaged by the trays.
It gets plaster dust in it.

719
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,679
And I don't care what anyone
says, you cannot get all of the

720
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,360
plaster dust out of carpet when
it's embedded in the pile.

721
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,719
And if you try to with a steam
cleaning, it actually sets the

722
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,040
plaster.
It can set it rock hard though.

723
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,639
It's putting the floor coverings
in last.

724
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,639
Now I understand where their
schedule they can't do it, but

725
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,800
they need to, you know, look at
ways because they end up

726
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,240
spending to have the carpet
cleaned if it's carpet

727
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,240
professionally cleaned because
it's so soiled, it gets you

728
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,840
know, plaster in it.
So it's it's not going to wear

729
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,320
as well as these doesn't look
aesthetically as good as it

730
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,680
should.
So planning better for it if

731
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,120
they can understanding, you
know, moisture, maybe looking at

732
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,760
products that are more moisture
tolerant, but that's normally

733
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,680
not up to them.
That's normally up to the

734
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,480
architect.
So it's also up to the

735
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,360
architects to understand a bit
more about moisture with these

736
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,440
products.
And I know this will never

737
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,480
happen, but not taking the
cheapest price from a flooring

738
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,480
contractor.
There are flooring contractors

739
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,680
out there that include
everything in their price.

740
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,520
And you know, of course it comes
time to award the job, but

741
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,920
you're too dear.
And the guy that's, you know, 10

742
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,240
grand below them or he didn't
include the moisture barrier.

743
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:40,640
He didn't include moisture
testing.

744
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,080
He didn't include this.
The end of the day, they could

745
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,360
get a variation for $20,000.
It could be more expensive.

746
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,320
The good commercial contractors
and retailers out there,

747
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,240
normally if they don't include
it, they'll at least tell you

748
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:54,360
that they haven't.
Like I haven't included moisture

749
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,960
testing.
So, you know, I, I'm a builder,

750
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,720
I'm asking them to include
everything that they've included

751
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,840
in the job or give them a scope
and say this is what you have to

752
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,040
include.
So that they're pricing apples

753
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,080
for apples as well.
Because sometimes they're not.

754
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,840
They're pricing a guy who's
included everything versus a guy

755
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,360
that's included the minimum.
And the day everyone loses

756
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,840
because, you know, if the guy
who's got the cheapest price

757
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,440
gets screwed, he's just going to
put cheaper labor on there.

758
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,320
Yeah, that's understanding that
sort of thing, understanding the

759
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,960
products you're putting down.
Some are highly moisture

760
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,080
tolerant and others aren't.
So it's.

761
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,960
And look, builders are getting
better because they're getting

762
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,800
bitten.
I work for one of the biggest

763
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,360
builders in the country and they
just, they engage me now from

764
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,200
pretty much everything from
start to finish because it saves

765
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,400
them money at the end of the
day.

766
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:41,880
And that's residential
commercial.

767
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,920
Yep.
Look, residential is a bit hard

768
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,680
to be honest because you know,
kind of engage me for a

769
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,560
residential job.
It's, you know, it's expensive

770
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,040
because especially for the cost
of the lying, whereas you know,

771
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,840
when you're talking at a multi
$1,000,000 fit out costs are

772
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,800
negligible.
And you know, they'll do it.

773
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,800
They what they, whatever it
takes to get it finished.

774
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,160
I do residential work, but
obviously commercial works

775
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,600
probably 95% of my business
because when I get called in,

776
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,120
normally it's to fix a big
problem or it's just look, fix

777
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,040
it.
It's, it's not the money's not

778
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,680
issue.
It's just that we need to get it

779
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,120
fixed and sometimes, like if
it's a hospital or an aged care

780
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,560
facility or something like that,
downtime is costing them huge

781
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,280
amounts of money per day, so
they need to get rectified

782
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:26,880
quickly.
You've mentioned this moisture

783
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,680
barrier many times during our
conversation and I know

784
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,240
waterproofing in in, I mean in
wet areas is causes massive

785
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,080
moisture and mold issues in
residential and in commercial

786
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,600
buildings.
So could you explain a little

787
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,200
bit about what is good and bad
practice or best best practice

788
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,320
around that?
Okay, so a waterproof membrane

789
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,760
is not a moisture barrier.
And this is where a lot of

790
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,720
problems do occur in it.
Lots of RDX, for instance, make

791
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,560
a product called WPM double O2,
which is a moist, a waterproof

792
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,600
membrane, which is tanking
products that goes in under, you

793
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,760
know, in wet areas, but it is
not a moisture barrier.

794
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,080
And other manufacturers make
similar products as just the

795
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,280
product that popped into my
head.

796
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,640
So if you're using that and the
slab has a high moisture

797
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,720
content, you still need a
moisture barrier as well as a

798
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:17,880
waterproof membrane.
Now the amount of jobs I've been

799
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,120
out to where they went, No, no,
no.

800
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,000
We used to a moisture barrier
and I went no, no, no.

801
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,560
You used a waterproof membrane
and they went same thing.

802
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,960
A waterproof membrane is there
to stop moisture going through

803
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,160
it down.
It still does allow moisture

804
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,080
vapor up through it, whereas A
moisture barrier reduces

805
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,000
substantially.
Moisture going both ways.

806
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,280
Pardon me.
They're 2 completely different

807
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,440
things.
They do similar jobs but the

808
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,160
moisture barrier is the the
belts and braces.

809
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,800
But also for NCC regulations in
what areas you do need a

810
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,960
waterproof membrane.
So it's understanding that there

811
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:57,000
is a Australian standard for
waterproofing which is 374 OAS

812
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,880
374-O.
It's is a residential

813
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,800
waterproofing standard.
There is no commercial

814
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,760
waterproofing standard.
Not sure why but there isn't.

815
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,640
They use the residential one for
commercial because there is no

816
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,520
commercial 1 and it was only
just finished I think in 2022 I

817
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,520
think.
But for some reason it wasn't

818
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,160
allowed to do cover commercial.
So there are things commercially

819
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,040
that aren't covered under any
standard but they still use

820
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,560
that.
So waterproofing is a you know,

821
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,600
there's some grey areas on where
waterproofing should be.

822
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,360
For instance, a commercial
kitchen doesn't need a

823
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,680
waterproofing membrane.
Now the shower or bathroom what

824
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,240
gets wetter than a commercial
kitchen?

825
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,280
But so in theory, you don't need
a waterproof membrane in a

826
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,200
commercial kitchen.
Now the NCC is always changing.

827
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,120
We have spoken and tried to get
them to include it, but for some

828
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,840
reason it's the moment.
A commercial kitchen is not a

829
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,200
wet area, you know it's they
all, but a presidential kitchen

830
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,600
in it's not.
Residential kitchen.

831
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,880
No, there's a lot of laundry.
It's basically the shower.

832
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,920
Yeah.
So there's and there is a lot of

833
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,560
grey areas with this as well.
There's a table in the well.

834
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,960
They've taken it out, but they
still reference it in the latest

835
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,920
NCC documents, which used to
tell you where you needed

836
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,000
waterproof.
Then they there's some places

837
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,320
where you need water resistant
because which you know, so you

838
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,200
get waterproof water resistant.
So there's a variation there,

839
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,560
and it's even.
So there's.

840
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:21,480
Waterproofing.
That's.

841
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:22,960
Right this.
Thing and moisture barriers.

842
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,920
And they all do different
things.

843
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,680
They're all different things.
And then you got the moisture

844
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,000
suppressant.
Which I mentioned previously,

845
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,520
which is none of those, but it's
is very cheap and a lot of

846
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,800
people use it because it is
very, very cheap to and easy to

847
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,240
apply a moist, A moisture
suppressant.

848
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:38,920
That's the one that you spray
on.

849
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,400
OK, so.
Is there a best practice here?

850
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,560
Look, there's as long as you
follow the NCC best.

851
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,560
Practice.
If I'm a builder, I'm putting a

852
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,440
waterproofing membrane in a
commercial kitchen.

853
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,800
However, you know, you price
that and you're pricing against

854
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,480
builders that aren't because
they don't need to.

855
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,280
You may not get the job.
So best practice is, you know,

856
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,880
follow the standard, follow
manufacturer's instructions,

857
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,080
follow NCC.
You can go over and above, but

858
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,640
look, the industry as a whole,
especially in Victoria at the

859
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,600
moment is, you know, it's, it's
not going well.

860
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,680
So it's because it, everything
that's happened here, then we're

861
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,360
in a lot of debt.
So builders are, you know, more

862
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,880
and more wanting the cheapest
price because they're wanting to

863
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,040
win.
They're going to win a job at

864
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,800
very low margins.
It was getting a lot better.

865
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,960
But you know, COVID and
everything like that and the

866
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,000
market diving, I mean, through
COVID, residential went through

867
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,840
the roof because people were
doing it do it yourself and

868
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,560
things to their house and then
they were getting the floor

869
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,360
coverings done coming through
that.

870
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,840
Now it's it's very, very quiet,
at least in Victoria.

871
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,840
I know other states aren't as
bad, but you know, builders have

872
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,880
just predominantly generally
taken the cheapest price,

873
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,920
obviously because they've got to
make margins.

874
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,760
And sometimes it's, it's fine,
but other times it backfires on

875
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,560
them.
And you know what you say about

876
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,960
pricing?
Things in the, in the building

877
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,920
industry cost the same whether
you're for the most part,

878
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,000
whether you're Joe or John, you
know.

879
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,080
And so when you are getting a
price, it really is about what

880
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,880
is included and what is not
included other than definitely,

881
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,560
you know, rather than any, any
other metric.

882
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:08,800
And if that goes for all trades
as well, it's not.

883
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,760
Just flooring and obviously it's
painting, it's plumbing, it's

884
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,400
electrical, it's it's
everything.

885
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,960
They're all getting screwed down
on pricing 100%.

886
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,520
So I heard someone mentioned
this week I think on Instagram

887
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,840
somewhere, something about an
epoxy waterproofing membrane and

888
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,400
they were saying it's the ducks
guts.

889
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,080
Do you have any comment on that
on that type of product?

890
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,480
Epoxy moisture barrier.
Is are you talking about a

891
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,400
moisture barrier?
You know what?

892
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,440
I'm not a waterproofing expert.
Yeah, I can't remember.

893
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,600
I'd have to look it up.
But I know that this person was

894
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,880
saying we've got this amazing
thing and and rubber and I was

895
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,360
just wondering what your comment
was on.

896
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,480
Yeah, look, so being
independent.

897
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,080
I'm trying to stay away from
brands but there are you know

898
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:54,120
RDX make it product called WPM
3, which is one of the it's a

899
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,200
two-part epoxy A moisture
barrier map I make of similar

900
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,760
products sick.
I do as well.

901
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,840
They and Oozen, a lot of these
manufacturers make similar

902
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,200
products.
They're two-part epoxy moisture

903
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,720
barriers, which are considered
the the premium.

904
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:12,600
They can go up to 100%, which is
the maximum RA to the subfloor.

905
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,760
So they are thought to be the
the belts and braces.

906
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,280
Obviously you're paying for
that.

907
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:21,400
And if you've got a slab that
you think is going to be 100 or

908
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,880
it's going to be close to 100,
they're the products you use.

909
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,880
But sometimes you might have a
slab that's at 90%.

910
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,400
So you don't need to spend that
amount of money.

911
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,240
I mean, they are expensive, but
they do a good job.

912
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:36,600
They stop hydrostatic pressure,
they can stop rising damp, some

913
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:37,920
of the products and things like
that.

914
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,480
So they are very, very good
products.

915
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,520
And look, those sorts of
products would be the ones that

916
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,360
I would recommend first.
But you know, if you don't need

917
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,640
to go to that cost, if you can
get away with this polyurethane

918
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,040
moisture barriers and things
like that, that can go up to

919
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,720
9093%.
So it's it's kind of horses for

920
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:58,440
courses.
So we'll say we do you moisture

921
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,120
test the floor, understand where
the moisture is and then you can

922
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,000
select a product from there.
OK.

923
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,280
Well, thank you very much for
that.

924
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,360
The homeowners so I'm a DIY and
I want to redo my floors.

925
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,720
Do you find that this creates
like do you find do are you

926
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:16,280
called to investigate these
sorts of things?

927
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,360
Look, I am, but you know it is.
Generally by insurance

928
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,880
companies, we do a lot of work
for insurance companies because

929
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,440
the insurance companies are
always trying to save money.

930
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,840
So they'll engage us to find
who's at fault so they can get

931
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,720
the money back off them.
I mean, for Mr. and Mr. Smith,

932
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,480
it, it can be too expensive to
be honest.

933
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,640
But I mean you, I mean, you've
got, you know, background in

934
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,640
building or anything like that.
You can drill a hole in the

935
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,040
floor.
You could do the test yourself.

936
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,640
When we came out with the last
resilience standard, a lot of

937
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,720
people wanted us to put the
surface meter in there for

938
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:49,800
residential because everyone
could do a surface meter test.

939
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:54,800
But, you know, we spoke about it
at length and as we agreed that,

940
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,520
you know, if you're a
manufacturer of a product, vinyl

941
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,880
flooring, are you going to allow
someone to do a test method that

942
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,560
you know or don't think is as
good and then they put it down

943
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,800
and it fails.
So if they allow that, they

944
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,800
could get 1000 failures across
Australia because the right test

945
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,280
method wasn't used.
So that's going to cost them a

946
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,440
lot of monies.
When it comes time to a flooring

947
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,880
failure, the first thing the
manufacturer will ask is did

948
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,400
your moisture test.
And if they say surface meter,

949
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,520
they'll go, oh, well, you
haven't used the right meter.

950
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,560
It's, it's, I understand why
they wanted to bring it in

951
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,480
residentially and it, it's
better than nothing, but it's

952
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,560
still not, it's only an
indicative test method that can

953
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,680
be affected by many different
things.

954
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,040
So there was a high push to have
that surface meter in there.

955
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,680
But you know, you could buy
equipment to do an institute

956
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,480
probe test or to be honest, if
you're built a new house, as you

957
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,040
know from what we've discussed,
the slab's going to have a high

958
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,760
moisture.
It's going to need a moisture

959
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,080
barrier for most products.
Some products can go up to 100%,

960
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,360
but not at the moment, not many
resilient floors, not any that I

961
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,000
know of can.
So vinyl flooring would need a

962
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,840
moisture barrier.
There are carpet tiles, carpet

963
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,280
if you're putting broader and
carpet down on a slab.

964
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,520
The standard actually says you
don't necessarily have to

965
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,760
moisture test at all because a
carpet conventionally installed

966
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,760
briefs, you've got to underlay
the breeze.

967
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,880
You've got carpet the breeze, so
what's allowing the moisture

968
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,440
out?
Whereas with vinyl it's getting

969
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,960
trapped underneath, which is why
you can get breakdown of the

970
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,240
adhesive, mild growth and that
sort of thing.

971
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,560
You can still get it with carpet
conventionally installed around

972
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:28,800
the wooden.
Spikes.

973
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,880
Yeah, I've seen that.
And I've also like.

974
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,600
A carpet's porous, right?
So if it gets wet and stays wet,

975
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,640
it's going to go icky mouldy
anyway.

976
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,280
Yeah, one of the things that I
did.

977
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,240
Have an issue with with a mould
and restoration standard was

978
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:44,920
that it actually said that in
some cases you can dry the floor

979
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,920
with a the carpet and underlay
still there.

980
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,320
I've been in industry a long
time and I've yet to see that

981
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,640
that's possible.
It really needs to be taken up

982
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,840
and cleaned and as you know,
you'll get mild grows and all

983
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,840
those sorts of things that
should be taken up even for that

984
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,000
reason.
Yeah, that doesn't sound like

985
00:46:59,000 --> 00:46:59,800
it.
Doesn't sound.

986
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,280
Sensible, no.
So would you?

987
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,880
Recommend that every slab is
just a moisture.

988
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,400
A moisture barrier is put on
every slab just to be safe.

989
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,320
If it's new, yes.
Depending on the flooring, if

990
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,720
the flooring can't go up to 100%
yes.

991
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,320
I mean some people have polished
a lot of people are now going

992
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,640
polished concrete.
Some of that isn't affected by

993
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,120
moisture, some is and some goes
cloudy and and Milky because it

994
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,560
is affected by moisture.
But I wouldn't say everything

995
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,680
because there are some you know
coatings and things that can go

996
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,280
up to 100%.
But if you're putting vinyl or

997
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,720
vinyl planks down, yes, if it's
a new slab, even if it's, you

998
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:41,640
know, I've got a 1970s house now
it's it's timber floor.

999
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,320
But if it was concrete, it
wouldn't have no plastic

1000
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,320
sheeting underneath because it
wasn't required in the early

1001
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,800
70s.
So if you've got no plastic

1002
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,560
sheet under the slab, moisture
is just getting into the slab

1003
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,880
from the sides from underneath.
So even we're finding a lot of

1004
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,680
older slabs, especially with,
you know, especially with the

1005
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,640
supermarkets now that have got
really old buildings that have

1006
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,160
no vapor, Tata, we're finding
readings of up to 100% because

1007
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,000
there's nothing stopping the
moisture getting in.

1008
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,720
So it's with a new slab, yes, I
would say if it's a flooring

1009
00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:15,040
that's not moisture tolerant,
yes, you would need to and the

1010
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,200
flooring contractor should be
recommending that.

1011
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,440
There are also you can get
hybrid planks, which are those

1012
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,240
loose leg planks, such a
floating floor or engineered

1013
00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:25,520
timber.
In that case, you can use black

1014
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,000
plastic sheeting as a moisture
barrier, which is obviously a

1015
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,520
lot cheaper because it slides on
top, it's not glued to the

1016
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,360
floor.
But if glues lose use, then

1017
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:34,760
yeah, you would need a moisture
barrier.

1018
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,680
And as a polished slab, is that
considered?

1019
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,200
Sealed.
That's sealed, right?

1020
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:43,240
Yeah, Yeah, but it still does
breathe the.

1021
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,920
Sealed slab still does allow
moisture vapour out.

1022
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,400
Yeah.
Continue to cure, yeah.

1023
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,360
Are there any new?
Technologies or approaches to

1024
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,000
concrete that you are excited
about.

1025
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:53,480
Look, I'm not a concreter, so
the the things.

1026
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,880
I am excited about is the
equipment I use, like for

1027
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,520
instance the Wagner equipment,
though as I said, I've been

1028
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,160
using it for 15 years.
Like when I first started using

1029
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,040
it, you had to write the serial
number down of the sensor on a

1030
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:06,760
piece of paper.
You know, everything was

1031
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,160
handwritten down.
Put it in the, the equipment we

1032
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,120
use, we drill into the slab.
We had to hand hold it with our

1033
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,560
hand.
The vacuum we'll come up with

1034
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,560
some way of doing it was really
quite finicky and a hole might

1035
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,600
take me half an hour to do and
document.

1036
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,600
The equipment we use now we've
got a hollow core drill bit

1037
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,440
which attaches to the vacuum so
there is no dust.

1038
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,160
We've got a DeWalt kit that's
just, it's look, it's amazing.

1039
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,720
It's battery powered, but the
batteries are last for a long

1040
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,920
time.
So it takes, it takes the dust

1041
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,320
out when we put the sensor in it
Bluetooths to your phone, which

1042
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,920
then when you finish with that,
we bloat.

1043
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,680
It goes to a website and the
reports there and we've used

1044
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,520
that report goes into our
report.

1045
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:52,720
So we can do 2425 holes in a
supermarket in two and a bit

1046
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,160
hours.
Whereas, you know, 10-15 years

1047
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:56,960
ago that might take me 5 or 6
hours.

1048
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,080
So the equipment's getting a lot
better.

1049
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,880
The standards are always
changing and updating.

1050
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,240
I know in America they've been
trying to for fast drying

1051
00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:07,320
concrete and more
environmentally friendly

1052
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,520
concrete.
And although I sit on a couple

1053
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,520
of the ASTM standards, I haven't
had much feed any feedback on

1054
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:13,360
those.
So I don't know how they're

1055
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,920
going, you know, adding more
Flyers to the mix to make it

1056
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,360
more environmentally friendly,
but that can affect some glues.

1057
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,000
The equipment's always, you
know, the way they bring it out

1058
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,400
and they update things.
You know, there's a with the

1059
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,680
Wagner equipment we use now
where there's actually a data

1060
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,880
logger which which would be good
for some restorers.

1061
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,600
So it's actually, it goes into
our sensor, it stays in the slab

1062
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,960
and it can stay there.
I'm doing a house in Brisbane

1063
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,840
which I've been doing for two
years now.

1064
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,520
So these data grabbers are put
in so that the homeowner can go

1065
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,160
past with their phone and it
gives them a read to their

1066
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:46,960
phone.
So they can then monitor the

1067
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,400
without me there, they can
monitor these readings over as

1068
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,760
long as they want.
We have had a battery went flat

1069
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,000
after a year and a half.
So we have to just take it out

1070
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,480
and replace the battery.
But things like that, if you're

1071
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,680
doing restoration, you can put
them in the slab from when you

1072
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,680
take the floor coverings down
and you can monitor how quickly

1073
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,520
it's drying or if it's drying at
all because it may not be drying

1074
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,880
in a section.
So there may be a moisture

1075
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:11,840
ingress problem there.
But you know, that sort of

1076
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,240
equipment is just like, to me, I
just think it's just amazing how

1077
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:17,960
they came up with this stuff.
It's called a data grabber.

1078
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:20,240
Brilliant.
Awesome.

1079
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:24,400
That sounds very exciting.
Do you have any resources?

1080
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,960
Do you have like a YouTube
channel, website, documents,

1081
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,840
training, anything that the
listener can access to learn

1082
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,960
more about flooring failures,
concrete testing, etcetera?

1083
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,520
Look, I've done a couple of
things.

1084
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,800
Some of which is saying I've
also done a thing for ABEC,

1085
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,800
which is a video for ABEC
members, which is to do with

1086
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,320
insurance.
I hate doing this stuff.

1087
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,240
I have to be honest, I'm not.
I would couldn't imagine doing a

1088
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:52,200
YouTube channel or Twitter or
something like a TikTok or

1089
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,280
something like that.
I'm sure there are people out

1090
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,320
there that love doing that stuff
and could do it.

1091
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,200
Look, I'm also I've been in
industry industry a long time

1092
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,320
and I'm happy to give back If
someone wants training in it,

1093
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,960
happy to do it.
You know, if someone wants to

1094
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:05,520
call me and go I've got this
problem.

1095
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,080
I mean I'm happy to spend 5-10
minutes on the phone.

1096
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,000
It's different if it's going to
be an hour or something like

1097
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,600
that, but happy to help.
There are a lot of videos

1098
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,360
online, like if the moisture
testing, there's a lot of videos

1099
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,040
on how to do.
I mean, Wagner and Trimex have

1100
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,440
very good videos on how to use
their equipment so that you

1101
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,040
could watch them and you could
do the if as long as you had a

1102
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,280
basic idea on using a hammer
drill and concrete and stuff,

1103
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,600
you would be able to do it.
But yeah, me personally and to

1104
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,400
be honest, my job is takes up so
much of my time.

1105
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:35,800
I do.
We don't have time.

1106
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,960
We do have a marketing lady
that's her and she is trying to

1107
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,640
get me to do more stuff and
there's so much knowledge in

1108
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:42,880
there.
We need to get it out.

1109
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:44,840
There it is, and look, I'm
happy.

1110
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,160
To get a, you know, happy to
pass it on to people.

1111
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,160
And we do, I do do presentations
for builders a lot.

1112
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,400
So I'll go to their office and
there might be 20 or 30 of them

1113
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,640
there.
I'll do a PowerPoint

1114
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:02,600
presentation on just everything
from moisture to common failures

1115
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,400
of flooring.
What's the most common things,

1116
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,200
how to fix it, what to watch out
when you go for on site and look

1117
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,640
for the builders.
I, I don't charge them for that

1118
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,040
because it's, they then come to
me if there's a problem and you

1119
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:14,320
know, it gets, gets it out
there.

1120
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,000
So there is that sort of stuff
and we've got a couple of things

1121
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,160
on our, that's how we've got a
couple of things on LinkedIn.

1122
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,280
But look, I just don't have the
time to be honest.

1123
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,520
But there are a lot of stuff
overseas.

1124
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,080
A lot of those guys do things
like that overseas, but not so

1125
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:28,000
much here.
All right.

1126
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:29,600
Well, between you and I will try
and.

1127
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,000
Put together a bit of a list of
resources and things that the

1128
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,640
listener can go and check out if
they want to know more about

1129
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,360
this.
Sure, and I'll put it in the

1130
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,000
show notes.
Yep, all right.

1131
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:40,840
Now we're actually.
Up to the last.

1132
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,800
Question and the last question I
ask all of my guests is out of

1133
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,840
everything that you've learned
in your career, all the flooring

1134
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,280
failures, all the court cases,
all of the job sites, everything

1135
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,920
that you've seen, what is the
one thing that you would like

1136
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,000
the listener to know look, if
you do it right, it.

1137
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,280
It may cost more, but if you do
it right, the job is, you know,

1138
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,760
as I said, it's three times the
cost to replace generally a job

1139
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,120
if you do it right.
If everyone quoted equally, I

1140
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,200
mean, I do tenders on large
projects and you get, you know,

1141
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,680
this guy will be 100,000, this
one will be 150, this one will

1142
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,560
be 200, and the end coin will go
take the 100,000.

1143
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,360
I'm going no, no, no.
There's a reason he's 100,000.

1144
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,080
He's missed something out.
Look at the quotes again.

1145
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,120
Why ask questions on why it's so
cheap and with moisture testing,

1146
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,640
I look at it, it's a risk.
It's a risk assessment for the

1147
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,200
contractor.
I did a presentation for a group

1148
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,840
for one of the large flooring
groups and they asked, well, why

1149
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,440
do we need to moisture test?
And the reason is it's a risk

1150
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,160
assessment.
It's insurance policy for

1151
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,360
yourself.
If I go and test today and it's

1152
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:46,320
75% and it meets the standard,
one gets laid six months time,

1153
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,560
the moisture event, something
happens, the floor blows off the

1154
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:51,960
floor and it's wet.
And I come in and test and go,

1155
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,120
it's 90.
The guy goes well here, the test

1156
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,200
results 75.
He's protected.

1157
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,680
If he hasn't done those tests,
they're going to assume, the

1158
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,360
insurance company's going to
assume that it was wet at the

1159
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,480
time and it's his fault now,
even if the slab's wet today.

1160
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,920
So if it's 90% today and you
test it and you put them

1161
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,560
moisture barrier down six months
time it fails.

1162
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,080
But I, I go in and test and it's
95.

1163
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:15,240
Well, it's like, well, OK,
things have changed.

1164
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,320
So something's happened or
there's an ingress.

1165
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,520
So it, it is, you know, spending
that money at the start, which

1166
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,000
isn't a huge expense.
I understand that is cutting

1167
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,040
into your profit, but it
protects, I grew up in my, in my

1168
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,200
parents business, which was a
little retail store in Katoomba.

1169
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,680
And you know, there was, wasn't
people around there to teach you

1170
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,000
these sorts of things.
And back then everything was

1171
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,920
solvent based.
So it wasn't affected by

1172
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,360
moisture.
But today, you know, the low

1173
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,760
VRCS, everything's affected by
moisture.

1174
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:46,960
There's a reason to do
everything right.

1175
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,520
And there's, you know, reason to
moisture test, just undertake

1176
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,680
moisture testing.
If you do it correctly, it will

1177
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,200
save you money long term.
You may not think so to start

1178
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,080
with, but and it's protecting
you and protecting your

1179
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,560
businesses.
And we see daily businesses

1180
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,880
going out of business, not just
in flooring everywhere.

1181
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:08,200
And it's just trying to do the
thing, if you do everything

1182
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:12,600
right, hopefully with potential.
The voice of experience right

1183
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,960
there, yes.
Thank you so much.

1184
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,440
Thank you so much, Don for your
time tonight.

1185
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,680
I really, it's been a fantastic
conversation and I hope, I hope

1186
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,840
to listen to takes away a lot of
really good information from

1187
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,400
that.
So appreciate your time.

1188
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:25,840
Thank you very much.
Thanks.

1189
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:27,480
Cheers.
No problem, see you later.

1190
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:28,200
Bye bye.