#3 - From Minimum to Masterpiece: Elevating Australian Building Standards with Dr Sarah Feiss - Architect

Jess Kismet (00:00)

Hello and welcome to the show. Today, I am speaking to Dr. Sarah Feiss. Sarah is an architect, a certified passive house designer, a former Australian Building Codes board employee, and she is currently working in energy efficiency policy with the Victorian government. Welcome, Sarah, and thank you for joining me.

Sarah Fiess (00:17)

Thanks for having me Jess, happy to be here.

Jess Kismet (00:20)

Great. So first and foremost, you are building a passive house. I've been following you on the socials. Tell us how it's going.

Sarah Fiess (00:26)

Correct.

Yes, I started an Instagram account to track the process as I was building the passive house and it's been quite a journey. We started by getting the pool shell in the ground in June. So now we've got the concrete shell of the pool in the ground and then we've decided to build the house around it. So house construction started in October, 2024. And so we've got slab down, we've got frame up.

We're doing the wrap on the outside and just this week we started on cladding and we've got the external window frames and doors in too. So it is getting there. It's quite a journey though.

Jess Kismet (01:02)

It's very exciting. I've been watching along and the wrap looks great. I know I've seen a lot of places where the wrap is installed and it doesn't look great and yours looks schmick. So you're doing a great job.

Sarah Fiess (01:11)

Yes, exactly. Just like wrapping a

present. They've done a great job with the wrap.

Jess Kismet (01:17)

Yeah, it's so satisfying. It's so satisfying looking at that proclima wrap. So what inspired you to build a passive house?

Sarah Fiess (01:21)

Yeah.

So I first learned about Passive House when I went to Vienna in 2011 and I did a three week summer school there on sustainable building. And there I got to meet Wolfgang Feis, the founder of Passive House. And as part of that training, we learnt a lot about Passive House. lived in, I even lived in a student accommodation that was Passive House. And that was my first experience of being in a Passive House building.

And when I had the opportunity to meet Wolfgang, who came up with the concept of passive house in the nineties, he's a building physicist. He said to me, we need more passive houses in Australia. And that was really the start for me of understanding what potential passive house has. And then a few years ago, I was able to do my certifications of passive house designer and we knew we wanted to build our own home. So we finally had this opportunity this year where it all came together.

and we started building it. And we've just finished the pre-certification, pre-construction certifications called. So part of the passive house process is you've got to really make sure you're doing all your checks and balances all the way along. And it's been great just to get to that point now where we know everything is all lined up, ready to go for the construction.

Jess Kismet (02:39)

That's certainly a really good piece of mind. I think at that point you get like a certificate, don't you, that says, yes, this house is going to be certified. You're on the right track. And from there, you just don't have to finalise all the details and submit everything.

Sarah Fiess (02:48)

Yeah.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, the final stage is submitting everything, photos, documentation of everything you've done in the build, and then you'll get your certificate and your little plaque on the wall at the end. So we're meeting the Passive House Classic criteria, which is the, I guess, the original standard from all around the world. And it will be less than 15 kilowatts per meter squared, kilowatt hours per meter squared per year to run in terms of heating energy. So it's going to be beautiful to live in. really looking forward to it.

Jess Kismet (03:23)

So for the listener who isn't familiar with passive house, could you just briefly go through the five passive house principles, please?

Sarah Fiess (03:30)

Yes, happily. The key principles of passive house, there's five key areas to focus on. The first one is airtight construction. So the airtightness is checked at the end and during the construction it needs to meet the criteria of 0.6 air changes per hour, which is a permeability rating that's done through the blower door test. The second principle will be super high levels of insulation and continuous insulation, making sure that connects from the

walls and the ceiling and all the way down to the floors as well. The third principle is mechanical heat recovery ventilation ensuring that there's balanced ventilation in the home at all times and that system actually transfers the heat. So you're getting fresh air all hours of the day and for example when you're heating up the room in winter then that fresh air is actually transferring the heat and so it's not losing any of the heat that you've already created in the home which is a fantastic effect plus the actual

heat recovery ventilation system doesn't take a lot of energy to run. fourth area is the windows. So the windows need to be very high performing. For example, in our home, it's going to be on the surf coast of Victoria. It's going to be triple glazing and UPVC frames for our windows. So excited to see those get installed. And the final principle would be thermal bridge free. And I know you and I talk about thermal bridges a lot, Jess.

It's not a concept that everyone is familiar with. So a thermal bridge essentially is when you've got a transfer usually through metal that's going from inside to outside of the house. And essentially, we want to block off any of those opportunities for any thermal transfer happening outside the house. For example, we've got some steel that is in the

beams that go between the ground floor and the first floor, but they're all within the insulation layer of the house. So that's what we call warm steel. So it's not creating a thermal bridge and connecting to outside. And then there's the technical criteria that you have to meet. And so once you've done all the technical criteria, which you measure in the passive house planning package, PHPP then you've met the criteria for passive house and you can go for certification. Easy.

Jess Kismet (05:40)

Yeah, easy as one, two, three.

But I think once you've done it a few times, it really is as easy as one, two, three. You know, I work for a passive house builder and he has gone through this process a few times now. And once you know it and other builders in this space, who say the same thing, that it's actually easier to build a passive house than it is to build a standard house because everything is just dialed in. You know exactly what you're doing and there's no surprises. Fewer surprises anyway.

Sarah Fiess (05:42)

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think that's the beauty of the passive house model and why it was created, you know, in the 90s, know, Wolfgang Weiss was as a building physicist trying to find something that could work anywhere and didn't have any uncertainty about it. So the passive house criteria when you've met it, then you know that you're going to get a building that's going to perform beautifully and it's going to do that year round and it can be applied in any climate across the world.

and it will still perform beautifully. So that's the beauty of building physics. think that's why we love building physics so much is because physics applies all over the world. And once you understand the principles of physics and building physics, then you know how the building is going to perform.

Jess Kismet (06:51)

Absolutely. The as-built verification side of Passive House is what attracted me because in my experience in energy assessments, sometimes what gets assessed and what gets built and what gets designed are not the same thing. So Passive House was quite enticing to me because it was peace of mind.

Sarah Fiess (07:10)

Absolutely. It's just integrated into the framework that you have to actually have the checks and balances of what you're doing. So what you say you're going to do, you actually make sure you do it on site. And that doesn't happen in standard practice in Australian construction, unfortunately, at the moment. So there's a lot of room to improve there.

Jess Kismet (07:26)

Absolutely. So triple glazed windows, that's pretty full on. Did that, was that part of your energy modeling that you had to go that far?

Sarah Fiess (07:34)

Yes, I think for the Victorian climate zone six, we decided to go for triple glazing and we could have done some testing and variability to look at double glazing in some areas. However, we were pretty close to the requirements in the end of the day. So the triple glazing for us just made sense. However, as you get further north, as you know, as you get closer to the warmer climates in New South Wales, for example.

And in South Australia, you wouldn't necessarily need triple glazing on all your windows to meet the Passive House criteria.

It has a lot of overshadowing on the site from double storey on either side and some tricky things with orientation. So I think that's why I just ended up landing in triple glazing. For me, my husband's from Germany and so my part of my family's in Germany. And I was really inspired by my sister-in-law's house over there, which had beautiful timber frame, triple glazed doors.

and they've just built a brand new house. So these doors were the first time I'd ever seen triple glazing with a timber frame, it was absolutely stunning. So yeah, I'm quite excited to see how our triple glazing works out.

Jess Kismet (08:45)

Beautiful. So in the intro, I introduced you, you wear a lot of hats. You're an architect, certified passive house designer. You used to work at the building codes board and you are now building your own passive house. So there's a lot of different elements in that bio. So my main curiosity here is how those correlate to each other and around how your experience.

how the Australian Building Codes Board and the high performance aspirations mix together for you.

Sarah Fiess (09:19)

Yeah, for me, I guess I've always been really passionate about sustainability. And that was my focus as an architecture student. And then I registered as an architect, but pretty much then went straight into government policy, working on energy efficiency. So most of my career has been spent on energy efficiency policy. then having learned passive house was something that I was personally really passionate about and knew that I wanted to bring in to the design and construction of my own home.

I think for me has been a real eye-opener in terms of understanding of building physics and understanding how these principles of energy efficiency can be applied in the building code itself. And what we're seeing in the building code since NCC 2022 is a lot more of a better understanding of the impacts of condensation, impacts of humidity in the home and

that we can start to see more of that becoming top of mind, I think, for builders and designers, which is really good to see.

Jess Kismet (10:20)

Yeah, the condensation issues being addressed by the Building Codes Board has been a massive step forward. I'm hoping that, you know, in South Australia, we are delaying the adoption of any new codes for 10 years, but we did get 2022 in, which does have some stronger condensation requirements in it, which I was really, really sort of pleased about. And of course, not having the building codes being enforced in South Australia doesn't stop us from

from improving our building practices and teaching better building practices.

What are your thoughts on that?

Sarah Fiess (10:57)

I think so

the building code is something that is updated in three year cycles and the building code relies on the policy that comes from the Trajectory for Low Emissions Buildings and fortunately when that came out that has given a good direction of where it could head for 2022 and that put in like quite a strong uplift in energy efficiency in 2022 and then 2025 was

for the next three years, there was an opportunity to refine some of those elements that came in in 22 that perhaps for multiple reasons weren't as clearly articulated as they could have been. Or at the same time, we at the building codes board, you get more feedback and experience from practitioners who are working on the ground as to what's working, what makes sense, what doesn't. And so it is unfortunate with South Australia's decision that means that all those

refinements that come through in 2025 actually won't be as easily applied in South Australia, for example. However, at least it gives a precedent and something, as you said, that can be used to guide some of the decisions on how 2022 could be interpreted. And there's also additional resources the Australian Building Codes Board puts out in terms of their guides and

their education series that they do, which would assist in educating builders and designers on these aspects that perhaps they're not 100 % clear on yet, as they're still quite new to building practice in Australia. And that would be a great way for them to understand a bit more about how to interpret those parts of the building code.

Jess Kismet (12:47)

Yeah, for sure. I was going to say I had a question or a comment on

I think I was just going to say, I use that 2025. Like I've got a screenshot of the 2025 version of the roof condensation. And I send it to people and say, look, apply this because the 2022 is, you know, it's, it's a really, anyway, I just, I guess my point is I like, I like the improvement that was made in the wording because the building code is very difficult to interpret. And the fact that they are putting the effort into making it

more easily understood. I really liked that and the fact that we are stopping at 2022 when there's actually some really significant jumps being made from the 2025 and no doubt onwards just just makes you feel like

Sarah Fiess (13:40)

It's frustrating. Yeah. And I guess it's really important to remember that the building code is the minimum. So it is the floor that's being set. And so people need to be reminded that actually this is the minimum. This is the baseline of what you have to do to build a new home or a renovation. And so you can go above and beyond this.

that's there's plenty of scope for going above and beyond. Maybe it's not necessarily all the way to Passive House for everybody, but there is so much that you can do to go above and beyond the building code. And there is a bit of a culture of just race to the bottom. Let's just meet the minimum of the code. But there's so much more as you and I know that we can do to go above and beyond that.

Jess Kismet (14:27)

Yeah, there absolutely is and that's what I spend my life and my sort of working hours doing, teaching people how to do that.

Sarah Fiess (14:34)

And it

doesn't necessarily need to cost anymore. I think one of the big drivers for this is that, it's gonna cost more. It's gonna be more expensive. But a lot of these things that we're talking about actually come down to quality of workmanship, as we know. And so it actually comes down to craftsmanship. And I think as a builder, like how much pride do you take in your work? How can you really take pride in the work you're doing, in how you're showing up every day, in how you are installing your building wrap?

and the quality of homes that you are giving to the homeowners at the end of the day. And I know so many fantastic builders who are just doing wonderful things because they really care about what they're doing and they really want the best outcomes for their clients. And even builders that have spoken to you that are really struggling to meet the new seven star requirements. One, for example, had a full height west facing.

single glazed aluminium window in Victorian climate looking out over this field where the cows were and looked straight into where people would be showering. And so I said to him, is there an opportunity that you could reduce that window size, for example? And he really wanted to keep that window size because he was what the client want. But I said to him, but does your client really want to be in that uncomfortable space in the heat of summer?

where they've got that west-facing sun just streaming in. And that's what really got him in the end to start to see my side of the argument was understanding that he does want the best for his clients. We can talk about lawsuits and legal requirements here, but it's really about people, want the best for their clients at the end of the day and they want to do a good job in their work. And so how can they make sure that the way they're building really contributes to that?

Jess Kismet (16:21)

Yeah, absolutely. I've been around builders who don't want to learn and I've been around builders who mostly, builders who really do want to learn and they actually stop and they take stock when they realize that they don't know everything and they don't know enough to achieve what they want to achieve and they actually take the time, they spend their time, they spend their money, they get coaching, they get training and they improve.

That's a culture that really needs to be nurtured and encouraged and promoted as you know, because there is, there is, as you say, race to the bottom culture in, in, in, in Australian construction. The licensing, you know, the training that goes along with licensing is not sufficient. I have personal experience in that, in my family and

I just think that there are many, gaps to be filled in the learning process for builders before they get to the point of getting their builders license and taking on entire construction projects. There's some steps that need to be included in the training for them, but it's not currently happening. Things even, and after they're trained as well, things like continuing professional development.

There are some massive gaps in the training of builders and so it is very much a self-directed journey. And I love working with the builders who take that upon themselves because so many don't.

Sarah Fiess (17:53)

Mm.

Yeah, a passive house builder that I spoke to defined it as going down the rabbit hole. And, you know, when you figure out, actually, there is a better way to do this than what I've been taught since I was, you know, a young bloke on site or, you know, there's a different way. And once you can start to bring in a bit of a better understanding of physics and how air move around a building and what we can do.

when we construct the buildings, then there's so much potential. It's not just for builders, it's also for designers as well. One of the biggest challenges, think, with 2022 is for designers to really uplift and bring in a better understanding of orientation and understanding how the sun moves across the site. And I think as an architect, in our profession, the public, I think there's a public perception that we...

Jess Kismet (18:31)

Absolutely.

Sarah Fiess (18:50)

all know what we're talking about. all understand energy efficiency. We all understand sustainability because we're taught that in university and it's not the case. We are not taught.

Jess Kismet (18:58)

I think

there was more energy efficiency and sustainability subjects in my diploma than there is in a Bachelor of Architecture. Yeah, well worth doing still, but...

Sarah Fiess (19:06)

100 % exactly. But yeah, it's five years of my life, I'll never get back. there's a lot of

It's a lot of like design thinking principles, but you have to understand all different scales of building and urban development, not specifically houses. So in my continuing learning, I've been specializing in what I really want to focus on, is passive house or sustainable building. And when homeowners go to an architect, they can't assume that that architect is going to know.

all of these building physics principles that you and I know, or the things about sustainability and energy efficiency to meet the code, even meet the minimum of the code in the best way possible. They can't assume that. That's something that education and for architects as well, they need to be really wanting to learn more themselves about understanding the physics and the principles of how the sun moves around the site how they can use that in their design.

Jess Kismet (20:05)

And architects do have compulsory professional development. they actually have to continue to learn in their careers in order to keep their registration. And so if you're an architect, go find a sustainability or an energy efficiency course to do to get your CPD points because you cannot, once you know it, you can't unlearn it. And then you'll be able to integrate it into your practices for your clients. And straight away, you'll start to design more comfortable buildings for your clients, straight away.

Sarah Fiess (20:31)

Exactly.

Yeah, do a passive house intro course. Do a building biology course. Like start to learn about the physics and the biology behind how the world works and then how we live in buildings. It all flows through, I think.

Jess Kismet (20:45)

100 % because you know what, whether you know you are building or designing and building for building science or not, you are. There's heat, there's air, there's rain, there's water vapor, moisture. It's in our environment, it's there. So whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not, these things are incorporated into the structures that you're designing and building. you're better off knowing exactly what you're doing rather than creating a risk and creating a hazard without knowing it.

Sarah Fiess (21:15)

Absolutely.

Jess Kismet (21:15)

particularly

now that mold is in the building code as a risk factor and as a quantifiable risk.

Sarah Fiess (21:18)

Yes.

And I really believe it's only going to get more important because people want to live in healthy buildings and to live in a healthy building, you have to understand how to build healthy buildings. And that's not something that we are doing quite now in Australia. There's huge risks, I think, in the way that we are constructing our buildings, our standard practices. And as an industry, we really need to be very aware of that.

and really all of us to train as much as we can and learn as much about this as we can.

Jess Kismet (21:56)

And it starts with the wrap. starts and ends, not, no, that's not true. It doesn't end with the wrap, but it definitely starts with understanding membranes.

Sarah Fiess (22:07)

understanding membranes,

yeah, but also in the case of Brick veneer, that's often not using any membrane or the fact that membranes are not required by the code.

Jess Kismet (22:19)

I

know that's it's actually astounding that membranes are not required. And I that was actually that fact speaking to one particular volume builder here in Adelaide earlier in the year when he flippantly shrugged at me and said, no, we don't use membranes. You don't have to. It had just. Annoyed me so much. And.

Sarah Fiess (22:40)

You

Jess Kismet (22:44)

That combined with a few other things is what inspired me to start my building biology study earlier in the year because I just wanted to learn more about what's actually going on in Australian homes and the fact that you can build a beautiful home and you never know what's going on inside the walls and the homeowner will never know what's going on inside those walls.

What do you think are the most common challenges that architects and builders are facing when navigating the National Construction Code? And is there much discussion within the ABCB in the time that you were there about how to improve that communication of the content of the building code, getting it out into the industry? Because you're dealing with tradies and builders, many of them left high school in year 10 or 11.

There's all sorts of ADHD issues with builders. A lot of them are telling me about how that is actually a barrier for them in interpreting and learning about the building code. So is there any talk in the building codes board or even in the wider industry that you've heard of in your travels, about communication and improving that to builders?

Sarah Fiess (23:58)

Firstly looking at designers, the Australian Building Code Board works really closely with Australian Institute of Architects and a lot of the key industry bodies for building designers. And I think a lot more of the training and education the Australian Building Codes Board does goes directly to those groups. So I feel like in terms of the designers, there is a clear link between CPD training and the building code and what's getting offered to them.

There is a real gap that I can see in terms of how do you actually, how do you get to those trades, especially younger trades? How are they learning and understanding information now? And where there is a huge gap between what the building code is, which is quite a technical document. It's got like, you know, we talk about different levels of reading ability. It's not set at like an average reading ability. It's quite a technical.

piece that you need actually a high level of technical knowledge to understand. So it's not really, unfortunately, in this current state, it's not really something that can be easily translated to that audience. And I think we are seeing some examples of some great bridges that are being created, like the Sustainable Builders Alliance here in Victoria, and the work they've been doing trying to get information out there. I know there's the website like Net Zero Ready Homes that

is getting information out there. And that's a really important piece of work. I'm not seeing really anywhere that I guess we see it a little bit perhaps on social media, but anywhere that's really translating the building code directly to that level of audience, like, you know, school leavers who are just starting a trade. That's not that's not what I've seen being done. However, it could be being done at the TAFE level, which might be where the gap's being filled.

Jess Kismet (25:52)

Yeah, just some hands-on training at the TAFES would be great to see. But I'm gonna use this opportunity to plug an app, not paid whatsoever. I barely even know these people, but there's an app called the Tools app that's been released just recently. It's an app that you download onto your phone and it's visual. It's literally the building code in pictures. It's like a 3D model and you can click on sections, walls, waterproofing.

And there's, know, all of the, all of the sections of the building code actually broken down onto your phone. It's onsite with you and it's, and it's visual, simple advice. So any tradies or builders out there who are listening, who want to make sure that you are actually compliant with the building code. This for me is the best tool I've seen to the easiest, accessible tool that I've seen. And I think that it should actually, the building code should be presented in this format. In my opinion, it should be in an app.

Sarah Fiess (26:47)

Amazing.

Jess Kismet (26:49)

where you can literally use it on your phone or an iPad on site. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I highly recommend it. I'll put a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to know more about that app as well. The guy who developed it has been in the building industry for 50 years and he's getting towards retirement. he, I listened to a podcast recently where he was talking about it and he, you know, sick and tired of seeing non-compliant work. And so he took it upon himself to develop an app.

Sarah Fiess (26:54)

Perfect. Yeah, that sounds great. Have to check it out.

Jess Kismet (27:19)

and it's excellent.

Sarah Fiess (27:20)

Brilliant.

Love that innovation.

Jess Kismet (27:23)

Yeah.

So Sarah, what are your hopes for the future of building in Australia and how can we collectively work towards a more sustainable and healthy built environment?

Sarah Fiess (27:33)

Well, I think there's a long way that we can go in Australia.

Jess Kismet (27:34)

Thank

Sarah Fiess (27:39)

I guess that's what I'm trying to do with our build and by documenting, putting it on Instagram and sharing it on social media is because I just want to demonstrate what we can do with traditional Australian construction techniques of a concrete slab, stick frame, and just making sure the frames are, for example, 140 mm getting a good level of insulation in there and just demonstrating what we can do with what we've already got. So we don't need to necessarily reinvent the wheel.

and do anything that's totally outside of our understanding. It's just about just little tweaks that we can do to improve the way we build. And that's what I'd really like to see. I'd like to see, even though I'm, you know, passive house certified building a passive house, not everyone necessarily needs to live in passive house. It's about finding that sweet spot of where we are between what is passive house level and what is the minimum floor that's created by the energy, you know, efficiency requirements of the building code.

Where can we meet in the middle somewhere that actually provides a really comfortable, healthy environment for people to live in? That's what I'm interested in seeing. It's not necessarily that we've got to take the building code all the way to Passive House, but it's about what is an acceptable level for Australian climate zones. And that's going to be different in each climate zone. And that's going to be different if you're building in the north of Australia versus the south of Australia because of what we need in the building physics requirements. So

I think that's what I would really like to see is that we can get to a level where we've got what I call like a sweet spot for energy efficiency in homes. And for example, I believe we're quite limited by the use of the 90 mm timber stud frame and don't get me onto steel frames. That's not something I'm willing to talk about in a podcast. I'll get too upset. But the 90 mm timber frame limits us essentially because you can only fit a certain amount of insulation in a 90 mm stud frame wall.

So for our project, we moved to 140 mm and it was an extra $5,000 on the building costs, which is nothing really in the whole scale of the build. And to be able to get R4 insulation in the walls, I think is just such a huge achievement. And perhaps that's where a nice sweet spot is for Australia, for the southern states of Australia, that we could start seeing more 140 mil stud walls being built.

I know there's a fantastic resource called Little Pot of Gold that was developed by some Passive House designers and certifiers. So that demonstrates in all the different climate zones of Australia what you could do to meet Passive House and what you could do to meet something that's still going to be a really highly energy efficient, well performing building that doesn't necessarily need to go all the way to the Passive House standard, but it's still going to be a beautiful home to live in and a healthy one too. So resources like that.

are really helpful in understanding how to adapt for different climate zones. And one of the best things we can do as builders and designers is to really understand our climate that we're working in. Really know where is the sun going to be and where is the best orientation for our windows, for our glazing. What's the local materials that we can use? What's the local ways of construction that we can do this so that we're getting really buildings that sit well within their site and in place.

and are made for their climate that they're in. That'd be beautiful to see.

Jess Kismet (31:09)

Yep, yep, absolutely. And I heard someone say once a long time ago, it costs the same to put a window in the wrong spot as it does to put it in the right spot. So paying attention to, as you say, solar gains where the sun is, is absolutely crucial and pretty easy. You just have to be aware that that's even a thing.

Sarah Fiess (31:16)

Yep.

I think windows is one of the biggest areas we could see improvement in Australia. The fact that in the southern states we can still get away with single glazed aluminium frame windows as the minimum standard is just beyond me. And that's changing with the construction code, but I'm seeing a lot of people who are trying to work their energy efficiency ratings to get around that. So they don't have to put in double glazing. And then even when they are putting double glazing, they are only putting in aluminium frame double glazing without any thermal break. So essentially they're not helping themselves at all with any sort of, you know.

condensation mitigation. So one of the best things I think people could do is start to really use better window frames to use uPVC or timber. I'd love to see more timber windows in Australia. That would be great.

Jess Kismet (32:14)

Yeah, so they are gorgeous to look at and the aesthetic is lovely. I will give the code props on one thing. In my experience as an energy assessor, we had the three options before us to get assessments through the building code. had the star ratings, DTS and verification against a reference building. Now, I'll cut to the chase. It's a bit of a long story for listeners, but essentially it used to be very, very easy to get.

low energy houses through the building code using alternative solutions other than star ratings. I used to do it all the time. But now the building code has changed such that the three methods of getting a house through energy compliance are much more aligned. So it is not as easy to get a very poor performing home through the building code as it used to be only a few years ago, which is a real positive step in the right direction.

Sarah Fiess (32:46)

Mm.

Jess Kismet (33:08)

And I hope that we're going to see less people, energy assessors are going to have less people than I did calling them saying, I thought this was an energy efficient house. It's not energy efficient at all because they didn't understand that their house was being assessed using a alternative compliance solution rather than a NatHERS star rating. And even a NatHERS star rating doesn't necessarily mean your house is energy efficient or comfortable. yeah, that alignment

between the assessment methods is a real positive step in the right direction that I've found.

Sarah Fiess (33:43)

Yeah, that's something that we'll be seeing a lot less of going forward. I think is that crackdown on making sure that people are not gaming the system and trying to get houses through that are just not meeting the criteria in any way, shape or form. And it's obviously a step up to NCC 2022 and to meet the seven star equivalent standard. However,

Jess Kismet (33:52)

Yeah.

Sarah Fiess (34:06)

it all comes back to the principles of understanding building physics at the end of the day. So if you're able to design a building that actually understands the orientation, that has a good level of installation, that has a good level of window sizing and good window frames, then you should be able to meet the criteria and exceed the criteria.

Jess Kismet (34:28)

Yeah.

Sarah Fiess (34:29)

It comes down to there's so many different players in the building industry. There's the designers, then there's the builders and the building surveyors as well too. We all need everyone to be working together and it's all driven essentially by the homeowner. They're the ones that are funding this whole project. So they also need to be educated and to educate themselves on this kind of information so that they can have those questions with the builders, designers, architects and even the building surveyor.

to ask these questions and then get better performing buildings.

Jess Kismet (35:00)

I'm actually finding that the driver for better performing buildings is coming from the homeowners. I get a lot of phone calls from homeowners who want to push their builders to do better and they want me to help them do it.

And I'm also getting calls from builders whose clients have said, I need you to specify this product, like the Proclima membrane, for example. And as soon as you say Pro Clima for a builder who doesn't know anything about energy efficiency or building science, that learning curve is going to be pretty steep. So it's sort of like a gently, gently approach when I get calls like that.

Sarah Fiess (35:29)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (35:30)

But yeah, I'm finding that the main driver is coming from, is coming from homeowners.

Sarah Fiess (35:38)

I think that makes sense. The homeowners are really the ones here who they're going to be living at the home at the end of the day. So they're the ones going to get the benefits from this. And they're also the ones that are funding the project. So it actually makes sense that they should be the drivers. And perhaps they're the ones that need extra levels of education and understanding of this stuff beyond just knowing what a star rating is or even that star ratings exist so they can really understand these principles and then ask for them.

Jess Kismet (36:06)

Okay. Well, I think we'll wrap it up there, Sarah. Thank you very much for joining me today. I appreciate your time.

Sarah Fiess (36:13)

Thanks, Jess. Good to chat to you.