#17 - Insulation and Condensation with James Pinyon

Jess Kismet (00:00)

Hello and welcome to The Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. My name is Jess Kismet and I am your host. Today, joining me is James Pinyon from Kingspan. He is the guy you want to talk to when you've got questions about insulation, thermal performance and making buildings work better. As Kingspan's technical services manager, James spends his days deep in the world of high-performance building envelopes.

helping designers and builders navigate all the tricky stuff like compliance, fire ratings, and how to actually hit those energy targets in the real Welcome, James.

James Pinyon (00:31)

Thanks Jess, thanks for having me on. Talking about what, my favourite, my favourite subject.

Jess Kismet (00:34)

No worries at all.

Insulation. All right, so let's, as I do with all of my guests, give the listener a bit of a background and context as to who you are. Although I sort of covered it in the intro, where, how you, a bit of your history and how you got to where you are today in Kingspan

James Pinyon (00:38)

That was a joke by the way.

Right, so I started my working life as a roofer. So I worked out on roofs, installing mainly on roof tiles. So I worked out as a roof tiler for five years, installing insulation and sarking underneath ⁓ roof tiles and then putting tile battens on and then tile roofs. So my working life started out on the tools as a roofer. So I...

I sometimes think about when I drive into Golden Grove, I think I probably put tolls on that house. I probably, I spent years and years in Golden Grove and Windvale and all those surrounding areas working on, yeah, towed roofs and new subdivisions. So yeah, my history is working with roofing as a towed roofer. And then I sort of moved over to working on iron roofing as well.

Jess Kismet (01:41)

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (01:52)

When I was a roof tiler it was residential roofing. There were some little commercial roofs, but it was mainly residential, pretty much 99 % residential. And then when I moved over and started working with iron roofing, it was mainly industrial and commercial type roofing, like shopping centers, larger top industrial tops or sheds. Yeah, so more commercial tops roofs.

So because I've spent a lot of time working on roofs and putting insulation in roofs, what happened was I ended up having a work accident. I needed to find another job. And when the job came up with Kingspan and insulation, it just seemed to be a pretty good fit for me. So we tend to sort of gravitate towards things we know a fair bit about.

And yeah, I applied for the job and I got the job and that was like 20 years ago. So it seems like a lifetime. It was a long time ago. So that's how I ended up here because like I said, I knew a fair bit about installation already because I've installed a lot of it.

Jess Kismet (02:45)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep.

And you did new roofs. Did you also do roof repairs at all? Or any rectification work? It's interesting.

James Pinyon (03:08)

yeah, yes, all the time, yes. Yeah, there are a lot of

where we did re-roofing, for sure.

Jess Kismet (03:14)

So maybe it's actually not one of my planned questions, but I want to ask you about this. What were the main problems that you would see for roof restorations? Because obviously mould is one of my favorite things to talk about. So did you ever find mouldy roof spaces? And why do you think that was happening?

James Pinyon (03:24)

Yeah. Well, Mo...

Okay, so if we go, I mean, I've been with Kingsburn now for 20 years. Now, mould wasn't really an issue back 20 years ago because there wasn't, mean, insulation, if you keep in mind, I mean, insulation really only became a mandatory building material like in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Jess Kismet (03:53)

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (03:55)

Although I say I've been sort of a lot of roof, a lot of insulation, a lot of roofs that I did re-roofing on weren't insulated. They might have had some sarking underneath it perhaps, but they weren't insulated. Now, if your roof isn't insulated, there's not much difference between the outside air temperature and the inside air temperature. So you don't really get a chance to hit that dew point because the roof stays at either a constant hot temperature or a constant cold temperature.

Jess Kismet (04:05)

Of course. Of course.

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (04:25)

because there's no insulation within the roof. So because that dew point wasn't reached, we didn't really have a condensation issue. It's only now that we're insulating, it's only really now that we're insulating buildings more and more that it's creating issues with warmer moist air inside the building. Because remember, the warmer the air is, the more moisture it can carry. And as that warm moist air moves through a building cavity, whether it be a roof or a wall,

Jess Kismet (04:28)

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, of course.

James Pinyon (04:55)

and now we're a floor through insulating floors now, but as that warmer moist air moves through a building cavity and hits a colder surface and the air cools down so rapidly that that air can't carry that moisture, it condensates. So we're now having issues with condensation, whereas 20 years ago we didn't really have a condensation issue.

Jess Kismet (05:08)

Yeah.

Right, so when you were doing roof repairs, it wasn't a thing.

James Pinyon (05:20)

Not condensation as such. mean, there were things that sort of started to wear out. mean, silicon, for example, has got a certain, yeah, so you had roof leaks. you had silicon, for example, had, it's only got a certain amount of lifespan, silicon, you know? So, I was repairing, so if I was doing a roof replacement or a roof repair, the main causes of them was because they might've had short sheets, for example.

Jess Kismet (05:28)

Yeah, like roof leaks.

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (05:49)

So where you've got short sheets and they're joining each other, it would be where they're lapped is where you might get corrosion. Because you might get a little bit of moisture in between the two sheets where they're overlapped and joined and that might start to rust out. So if I was doing a roof repair, for example, 20 years ago, that roof might have been put down 40 or 60 years ago.

those roofs didn't have insulation.

Jess Kismet (06:15)

Yes, yes, yes. So the way the work now, do you obviously not running around on rooftops anymore? But do you see do you see commonly in your day to day work these sorts of condensation and mould issues?

James Pinyon (06:22)

Mm-hmm.

We do, and I know there are a lot of conversation issues too. I mean, the majority of projects I'm working on now are new projects. So if I'm talking to a designer or an architect, they're generally working on a new project and we're talking to them about the best way to insulate their roof and depending on what their use of the building is. So...

But yeah, there's definitely a high risk of condensation forming now because we're insulating so much more now. you know, I don't think I'm really working on too many. I mean, there are some retrofits to a lot of buildings, which come up from time to time where someone might have an existing building. They're doing an upgrade to the building or they're putting an extension on the building. And you might come across, you know, older types of the building that have some

Jess Kismet (07:04)

You

James Pinyon (07:25)

condensation issues. But ⁓ yeah, the majority of the majority of stuff I'm doing now is with new buildings.

Jess Kismet (07:27)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

new construction. Okay. So, you know, you've been around Kingspan for 20 years and before that you were doing roofing and so you've probably seen a lot of changes in that time. What have been the biggest changes in insulation? What have been the changes in insulation practices that you've seen?

James Pinyon (07:35)

Yeah.

Probably the introduction of higher thermal performance requirements. I mean back when I started with insulation, if we talk about residential, for example, there's a couple of different factors here. You have residential, then you have commercial. But if we talk about residential, we were looking to achieve a four-star as a residential when I first started. In 2006, when I was started, what...

when I was, well 2004, sorry, when I had started, we were on like a four-star energy rating. Whereas you could achieve that reasonably easily with an R3 bat on top of the ceiling and an R2 insulation in the wall cavity. Whereas now we've gone through the whole process. I mean, there's been a lot of introductions in that time, but the biggest change I've seen within the insulation industry is the requirements are getting...

Jess Kismet (08:28)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

James Pinyon (08:49)

more stringent and harder to achieve.

Jess Kismet (08:53)

Yep. And how has the industry responded from your perspective?

James Pinyon (08:57)

It has responded pretty, pretty well. There's, you know, if you take some of the some of the new insulation requirements out now, I mean, now we've moved into seven star. There's some builders out there or there's some there's some contractors out there who have never had to put insulation in certain areas where they do now. Now, probably, you know, the major one that sticks out when I think about it is if you look at the purse, because we're now

supplying insulation particularly up in the cold climates. It's like climate zone six, know, up in the Adelaide Hills or the Barossa Valley top sort of area or Fleurieu peninsula, those type of top sort of climate zones, climate zone six. A lot of the residential buildings down there to achieve a seven star, they might have to put insulation underneath their slab on ground. Now the...

Jess Kismet (09:48)

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (09:49)

to put insulation underneath slab on ground or even slab edge insulation. Now the contractors that would put that in would be the steel fixers who do the reinforcement rods for your concrete foundations or your reo Now those guys have never had to put insulation in before. this is only something that's only come out over the last...

Jess Kismet (09:59)

There we go.

Yeah, that's an interesting challenge.

James Pinyon (10:15)

you know, typically 18 months to two years where we've had to start insulating under the concrete slabs. So going out and meeting with a bunch of guys on site and saying, this house to achieve that star rating needs to have insulation underneath it. you know, the guys that are carrying around heavy reo bars and being able to, once it's excavated, drop them on the floor, put them in place, wire them all together. And then now before they do that, they're having to put

Jess Kismet (10:18)

Yeah. huh.

James Pinyon (10:44)

insulation on top of the pads on top of the Forticon and they need to be reasonably careful with it because you know insulation you know is really quite soft that yeah yeah there's nothing nothing really structural to it so you know so you okay yeah

Jess Kismet (10:47)

Yeah.

It breaks. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I actually heard a story the other day of, I heard a story the other

day of waffle pods, a packet of waffle pods had been opened on a windy day and they blew all over the road. Yeah, cause they're light. Yeah.

James Pinyon (11:09)

no, they go everywhere, Everywhere.

Yes, and if it's windy, wind will pick them up and take them and if they get smashed against stobey poles or cars or whatever else, they'll just break up. And the cleanup, the cleanup geez I've actually seen a couple of pictures where this subdivision was littered with what looked like snow, but it was actually waffle pods.

Jess Kismet (11:19)

Mm. Yeah.

Yes.

Good.

Yeah.

James Pinyon (11:37)

And I just thought it would take a team of five guys, like literally two days to walk around and pick that up. Like it was, was, it was literally everywhere, probably over a over a good like, you know, a couple of hectares site. was a big subdivision, littered, littered with it. it was, anyway, anyway, I'm glad, I'm glad I had nothing to do with it.

Jess Kismet (11:42)

Yeah, people let up. Yeah.

wow. ⁓ no, that's a big issue. Anyway,

but I digress. So you're talking about the steel fixers and they're having to install insulation and this is a challenge for them. It's new.

James Pinyon (12:07)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so how the industry has responded, I mean, you do get a little bit of resistance, you know, because it's something that they haven't had to do before. It is going to slow them down in them fixing their steel. So it does slow them down. It's something extra that they now have to do. So yeah, a little bit of resistance. Well, yeah.

Jess Kismet (12:27)

Do they price for it? Do they know ahead of time that they have

to do this and do they price for it or does it become a variation and a delay and that kind of thing?

James Pinyon (12:33)

Well, I'm sure.

I'm sure they probably would, but you know, how they manage their variations and their costings, I'm not privy to, so I'm not sure about that. I guess it's just something that they've never really had to install installation before. So like I said, you can get a little bit of resistance, but once you talk to them and you tell them how it is, they understand, well, that's just part of the job now. The job, you know, that the world is changing and they just go ahead and do it.

Jess Kismet (12:54)

Yeah.

Yeah.

James Pinyon (13:06)

It's like anything, whenever you've got to try something new, you always kind of expect to get a little bit of, you know, why are we doing this? And does it really matter? Does it make a difference? You're going to get a little, you know, a little bit of those sort of questions, but once you're sort of getting the flow of installing it, it just becomes part and parcel of the job. Yeah, exactly. The new normal. Good way to put it. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (13:14)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

the normal, the new normal. Okay, so.

South Australia's first 10-star home was built in Woodford and I understand Kingspan was the supplier of, a supplier or the supplier of insulation for that project. Can you tell us a bit about that?

James Pinyon (13:43)

Yeah, we, yeah,

Yeah yeah. So, I mean, that was a pretty exciting project. I mean, when you go back where the normal was a, I think we were on a six star home back then, that that was a requirement. So remember, six star is the minimum requirements. SUHO or Sustainability House was, which as you know, they are an energy rating company who, so.

Jess Kismet (14:07)

Yes.

James Pinyon (14:07)

environmental sustainability consulting company. They designed that building and wanted to prove that you can build a 10 star home. So we were asked, so for them to be able to achieve 10 stars, they needed to, in some areas, use a continuous insulation and pretty much will beef up the insulation values for their house. So we supplied insulation that went on the outside of some of their reverse brick veneer.

Jess Kismet (14:10)

Yes.

James Pinyon (14:36)

building. So they had thermal mats on the inside of that house on some walls. And we provided insulation that went on the inside of some of their wall frames in other locations. So all we really did was provide the insulation, but it was a sustainability house that did the design and the build and managed the whole process. But it was good to be able to say that our insulation

helped them to be able to achieve a 10 star rating. So that was a pretty, yeah, exciting project. And back at the time, we used the house to run a couple of meetings and building designers tops of the meetings. So it was a good chance to be able to show the house off and say that we played a part in insulating it.

Jess Kismet (15:23)

Yeah, that was a really sort of innovative project ⁓ at the time and remaining. It's still an innovative project now. So you said that you used external continuous external insulation. This is not a common practice. So what product did you supply for that?

James Pinyon (15:39)

The product that was used back then was our Kingspan CoolTherm K12. So pretty much it's a rigid insulation board. It has foil on both sides. It was used on the outside of the frame. then over the top of that, there was a batten. So it was almost like a drainage channel or a batten. Then they had exterior cladding fixed to that batten. And in some of the walls, they also used our perma shield.

Jess Kismet (15:56)

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (16:05)

our aircell PermaShield as well as a vapour control layer.

Jess Kismet (16:09)

the inside.

James Pinyon (16:11)

on the inside. Well, on the outside of the, they used the rigid board on the outside of some of the studs and they also, on different walls and on other walls, they used it on the inside. And on some of the other walls, they, because obviously there's different sides of the house, different orientations. And on some of the other walls, they used our PermaShield our AirCell PermaShield insulation as a vapour control layer. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (16:28)

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yep.

And you mentioned reverse brick veneer. So, I mean, this is not the issue with Kingspan but just for the listener, reverse brick veneer is when you put the bricks on the inside of the stud frame instead of the outside of the stud frame. And James you mentioned thermal mass. So brick is a thermal mass product. It absorbs heat and releases heat slowly. So that was a really important strategy.

James Pinyon (16:49)

Yep.

Yes. ⁓

Jess Kismet (17:02)

for the 10-star house and getting it to achieve that 10 stars is moving the bricks on the inside where it can actually contribute heat to the habitable space. So it actually is. And the hardest part about doing reverse bricks in there is finding the brickies to actually lay the bricks back to front because they've got to do it on the opposite side of the... So it messes with their brains a little bit to actually get them to...

James Pinyon (17:10)

Yes.

Absolutely, mean, that's a great way to build.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (17:30)

to turn around and do it from the other side. ⁓ Yeah, but it's a very effective, extremely effective strategy in increasing your NatHERS star rating. So let's move on to thermal bridging. So, you know, I recommend Kingspan boards sometimes for externally insulating steel.

James Pinyon (17:33)

Do it on the inside. Yes.

Jess Kismet (17:56)

So in fact, that was on site only two days ago talking to a builder who had some steel beams and steel columns. And I just said he didn't have much space. He didn't have much space on the outside of his building. But he did have enough. And the K boards are quite dense. And so they give a high R value for a smaller thickness. So I recommended that he use one of the K boards for insulating his steel. So is that?

something that you do, like when you are talking about thermal bridging to builders and trades. Is that what that product is used for sometimes?

James Pinyon (18:26)

Yes.

We...

A lot of the times it is, and we did use our Kingsman K12 on the outside of frames quite extensively. Things have changed a little bit now since the introduction of 2022, NCC 2022 and Seven Star. As you'll be aware, NCC 2022 now talks about on the outside of your primary installation layer, you really need to have a vapour control layer. That's either going to be like a class three or a class four.

Jess Kismet (19:04)

Yeah, vapour permeable

James Pinyon (19:04)

If you'll put our K12,

yeah, a vapour permeable barrier, I should say. If you put that on the outside, you're kind of going to negate that vapour permeability from it now. we really are sort of suggesting to people now to put it on the inside, the inside of their frame. I mean, is, I mean, you still can put it on the outside of your frame. And we've actually had a few WUFI analysis.

Jess Kismet (19:10)

Yeah.

Yeah.

James Pinyon (19:30)

carried out with our rigid board on the outside of the steel frame. ⁓ And it has showed that we haven't had a risk of condensation, well there's always a risk of condensation forming, but we have shown that condensation hasn't, the dew point hasn't been reached. But to apply it safe now, sorry, to do that you would need to get a performance solution and getting a performance solution carried out for a residential

Jess Kismet (19:34)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (19:56)

home, you know, it's going to be just an extra consultant within the mix, which you probably don't want to do. What we are suggesting to people to do now is, you know, maybe put the, if they do need to use a rigid insulation board, put it on the inside, the inside of the frame. So that way you have your plaster board, rigid insulation board. Then you would have your frame, your stud frame, a vapour control. And then inside that stud frame, you'd have your R2 or your R2.5 batts

Jess Kismet (20:00)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (20:24)

then you'd have your vapour control permeable barrier and then whatever exterior cladding you use, whether it be brick veneer or you use some type of other exterior cladding. But yeah, really now we're sort of really leaning towards people using our rigid installation board on the inside of the building.

Jess Kismet (20:44)

That's interesting. So when I was talking about externally insulating steel, I was referring to only the steel itself. So I wasn't suggesting that we put that across the whole building. I was talking about just the

James Pinyon (20:45)

Yeah.

so you're just like

with strips. Yeah, okay, yeah. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jess Kismet (20:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just the column or just the beam, just to keep that still

warm, because keeping that still warm is really important. But it's interesting because what you're actually saying, James, about external insulation, the reason that condensation forms is because it hits a cold surface. So if you end up, mean, although the K boards are not vapour permeable, they are keeping the...

James Pinyon (21:05)

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (21:21)

I don't know you've heard of Joe Lstiburek Have you heard of Joe Stebrick? Talk about him a lot on this podcast. He's a, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's the guy, the building science genius over in the US. And he talks about the perfect wall. And the perfect wall has got all of the insulation on the outside of the structure, on the outside of the frame. And he's got his vapour control layers and his air control layers and all of that outside of the frame. So actually putting external insulation

James Pinyon (21:25)

Joe Lstiburek yes, yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Jess Kismet (21:47)

And this is not technical advice for the listener. You must always get advice on your own individual projects. However, the building science is that if you keep your structure warm and you keep the vapour from getting into the wall system, then you're not going to have a problem inside the wall. So although the Kingspan boards are not vapour permeable, the performance solution, you said that you've had some some hygrothermal analysis done and it hasn't thrown a problem. If you have external insulation,

James Pinyon (21:50)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jess Kismet (22:13)

in an, know, that's, that is working towards, you know, the ideal wall structure.

James Pinyon (22:21)

Yes. Yeah. And I agree with you, but the NCC 2022 clearly states that if you're using a vapour permeable, so if you're using a membrane on the outside of your wall and then on the outside of your primary insulation layer, needs to be vapour permeable. You your wall needs to be vapour permeable. So if we go ahead and say, look, I believe, you know, the building science shows, insulating on the outside of the wall is a better way to do it.

Jess Kismet (22:37)

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

James Pinyon (22:50)

Unfortunately, it flies in the face of NCC 2022 and those, yeah, yes.

Jess Kismet (22:51)

riddled.

Yeah, it's riddled with risk. Yeah, an application

of those products is important. So you're suggesting that the insulation go on the inside instead. Are those boards taped?

James Pinyon (23:10)

We would recommend taping, yes. I mean, yeah, we would recommend taping, but putting the boards on the inside, on the inside of the wall, what that's going to do is it's going to keep the internal side, it's going to stop the warm moist air. When I say warm moist air, the air from inside the building, hopefully the room temperature inside, we're talking about residential now, inside the...

Jess Kismet (23:12)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (23:36)

building is it's comfortable 22 or 23 degrees. Like I said, there's a certain amount of moisture that is always going to be in warmer air. And as that warm air touches, gets onto the plasterboard, the idea of having insulation there is it's going to keep that plasterboard warmer because the insulation is behind it and it's not going to be getting so cold in the fact that if it was attached directly to a steel frame.

Jess Kismet (23:41)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓

James Pinyon (24:04)

You know, I've

seen projects where there's been, and I'm not discounting steel framing at all because I know it plays a big part in the residential landscape out there, but I've seen...

where what they call ghosting, whereas you've got a steel frame structure, you have plasterboard and in those cold winter months, June, July and August, for example, it might be 23 degrees inside or hopefully 23 degrees inside, nice and comfortable, but it could be five or six degrees on the outside and that steel frame has become quite cold.

and where those studs are, can see a little bit of condensation forming on where those studs are because it's quite colder on those areas that they call that ghosting. So I've seen that before. So the idea of having insulation on the inside is to stop that warm air touching those cold studs.

Jess Kismet (24:44)

Mm-hmm.

And do you recommend that when you, because I imagine you do site visits and things like that with the projects that you're providing insulation to. Do you ever talk about taping up your penetrations and things like that?

James Pinyon (25:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so penetrations anywhere where, warmer air can escape. mean, it does get pretty difficult and this is why it's important to have that vapour permeable membrane on the outside because you, because I mean, even warmer, warmer air can come through things like light switches, for example, and power points. So you're always going to get a certain amount of warm air going into what is effectively going to be a colder cavity.

Jess Kismet (25:27)

Yeah. Yeah.

James Pinyon (25:36)

and and condensating. So if it if it does condensate you need to be able to release that that vapour to the outside of the building and that's where your vapour permeable membrane comes into place.

Jess Kismet (25:47)

Yeah, that's where it's absolutely crucial and where those vented cavities are absolutely crucial. So you can get the air movement through the through the external side of the membrane to dry it all out. 100 percent. All right. So what about some of Kingspan's latest innovations? Have you had have you had much innovation in products going on behind the scenes or anything that's on the shelves at the moment?

James Pinyon (25:53)

Yes.

Yep, yep.

Yeah, we have. We have. mean, there's a couple of innovations that we're doing as far as applications go. mean, insulating underneath slabs on ground is quite innovative and slab edge insulation. mean, these are a couple of applications that are quite new to us even.

I mean, you know, here in South Australia or here in Australia, we haven't had to insulate really underneath slab on ground, you know, until the last couple of years. So that's quite a new approach for us and the industry. Another application which is quite innovative is in the commercial world. We're talking to a lot of builders and plasterboard installers now and instead of them inside of a concrete precast.

where let's say you take like a homemaker center. mean, keeping in mind every building that's air conditioned needs to satisfy an energy requirement and have insulation if it's going to be air conditioned. So on the inside of a, let's say like a small homemaker center or a large homemaker center was built out of concrete precast. What the traditional way of insulating that building would be to basically build a metal stud frame on the inside of that concrete precast.

put insulation in there and then put plasterboard against that metal frame. What we've been doing over the last 12 to 18 months, which is pretty innovative, is putting our rigid K-12 board straight up against the wall, so straight up against the concrete. And then...

Jess Kismet (27:46)

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (27:47)

once the entire wall has a continuous insulation going over the wall and then with adhesive fixing plasterboard directly to our insulation. So you're basically eliminating the cost to buy the steel for a steel stud and you're eliminating the cost to actually build the steel stud. So it's a quicker way to...

Jess Kismet (27:59)

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (28:10)

It's a quicker way to insulate and install it and it's cheaper to install it. So that's quite innovative. Services can be chased out the back of the insulation. So, you know, for electrical and water, but that's all details that we provide to the plasterboard installers as they're doing the job.

Jess Kismet (28:16)

Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (28:29)

⁓ Other innovations have been what we're introducing now into the industry is what we call warm roof. So there's quite a lot of concrete roofs on high rise types of buildings, or they don't have to be high rise, but there's quite a lot of concrete roofs. The traditional way of insulating a concrete roof would be to put either insulation up underneath the concrete, like a typical soffit application, or even build a suspended ceiling below the concrete and then insulate

Jess Kismet (28:52)

So, yep.

James Pinyon (28:59)

insulate that. But you know, the environmental sustainability consultants and the engineers are saying there's a lot of benefits in putting insulation on top of the concrete roof and then putting a membrane, so a membrane and waterproof membrane over the top of that. And it can be trafficable, it can have pods on there for

Jess Kismet (29:00)

Yes.

waterproofing membrane.

Yep. Yes.

James Pinyon (29:21)

⁓ solar panels. So we're doing a little bit of that at the moment as well within Australia and that's a pretty innovative way of insulating. So we're partnering up with waterproofing contractors who are carrying out the work and just a really good way of insulating concrete roofs. So there's a couple of innovative applications there.

Jess Kismet (29:21)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's awesome. And that's that external insulation piece again. You you're keeping the structure warm. That is what you need to do for optimal energy efficiency and optimal condensation risk mitigation. And also waterproofing. Like if you're putting, if you are putting that waterproofing barrier on top of the insulation, that's sort of, that's how you protect the insulation. But it's also taking care of waterproofing.

James Pinyon (29:48)

Yeah, yes.

Yes.

Mm.

Yes. It's

also how you protect the concrete as well. I concrete, as we've already talked about, has a lot of thermal mass. So on a day that's 25 degrees or 30 degrees, that roof can hold a lot of temperature and it can get quite stable. But if you get a shower, if you get a rain shower, that roof can cool down by 10 to 15 degrees within a few minutes.

Jess Kismet (30:17)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

James Pinyon (30:38)

that loss of heat exchange in such a rapid short time can also cause cracking as well. So being able to insulate above and then if you've got your air conditioning, whether it be cooling or heating on inside the building and that concrete structure above gets to a certain temperature, it's gonna stay very stable, particularly when the insulation above is protecting it from the outside environment.

Jess Kismet (30:41)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

with you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. That's great. That's really great to hear. How how do your different products apply to different climate zones? Because you mostly work in South Australia and Northern Territory. Is that right? So that's crosses a bunch of climate zones there.

James Pinyon (31:07)

So it's a good way to insulate.

Yes, so yeah, yeah, absolutely I do. Yes.

It does. for example, so if we're in Climate Zone 1 or Climate Zone 2, so Northern Australia, we would really, where it's very hot. And where it's hot, say up in Northern Australia, and people inside the building have an aircon on, so they might have an aircon on that's cooling the building down to 22 or 23 degrees. But the outside of the...

Jess Kismet (31:35)

hot.

Hmm.

James Pinyon (31:54)

of the building because it's so hot, it's 35, 36, 37 degrees. And because the air is so humid up there, the vapour drive is different. The vapour drive is trying to get into the building. So what we want to do up there is trying to really insulate on the outside of the building and have good vapour barriers up there in Northern Territory. So the vapour barrier that we'd use on the outside of a wall frame would be our Insulbreak

Jess Kismet (32:16)

Yes.

James Pinyon (32:23)

in Insulbreak 70, for example. Whereas we wouldn't use our Instalbrake 70 on the wall down here because on the walls down here where it's cold outside and we want it to be warmer inside, the vapour drive is on the inside trying to get out. So it's the opposite. although we have only one set of products, well, we have a whole range of products, but we have some products that are vapour permeable, which we'd use in colder climate zones. And we have other products which are...

Jess Kismet (32:24)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Pinyon (32:51)

full vapour barriers, which we use in the warmer climate zones. So depending on the climate zones, I guess what would change would be the location of where you put your insulation. So it's really the location of where the insulation goes.

Jess Kismet (33:05)

which side of the world.

James Pinyon (33:07)

which side of the world, the warm side or the colder side?

Jess Kismet (33:11)

Yep. And as far as vapour permeability goes, what are Kingspan doing to address the vapour permeability of their external products?

James Pinyon (33:19)

We are about to release another material called Steico which is a wood-grained fibre material, which again, we'll be using colder tops to the climate zone. So it is a rigid insulation board. That will be ⁓ able to provide a vapour permeance of class three and class four depending on which material that we use. So that's something that's going to be pretty exciting. That's going to take care of thermal bridging and...

your vapour permeance and it's going to give you a continuous insulation. So that's something that we're doing there.

Jess Kismet (33:52)

Yep, so

Steico is a German company, isn't it? Isn't that? Yes, I know Steico So did Kingspan buy Steico

James Pinyon (33:56)

Yeah, so you've heard of it then.

Yes, excellent.

Yes, yes. So, Kings, so with Kingspan, mean, obviously we're in the business of energy efficiency and sustainability. So Kingspan is very good at identifying good materials and then acquiring those companies and bringing them under the fold of Kingspan. So, yeah, so I'm looking forward to bringing that out because there's so many

Jess Kismet (34:02)

Yes, okay. Interesting.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

James Pinyon (34:26)

There's so many areas where that could be used. So many buildings in so many areas.

Jess Kismet (34:29)

100 %

wood fiber and they've got a lot of their product range is quite broad which which products of theirs are you are you bringing in all of them or just a few?

James Pinyon (34:37)

Yes, I can't. Yeah,

no, no, it won't be all of them. It'll be the most popular ones, but we're going have a release, we're have a launch in a couple of months. So as soon as we have that launch, I'd be happy to jump on and give you more information about it. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (34:52)

Alright,

we might, by the time this episode is released, it will be a couple of months. So we might even, we might even do like a bonus episode where we tack on some information about your launch.

James Pinyon (34:57)

We might be there. Okay.

Yeah, okay, sounds great.

Jess Kismet (35:09)

Alrighty, because yeah, these episodes are fortnightly so we can put in a little bonus episode in that middle week and have a little chat about it.

James Pinyon (35:10)

⁓ right.

Jess Kismet (35:17)

so I've got two more questions. What trends, what trends do you see shaping the future of insulation and sustainable building?

James Pinyon (35:19)

go for it.

Jess Kismet (35:24)

in Australia.

James Pinyon (35:28)

Well, definitely the clear, well the actual clear trend is insulation requirements are getting higher and higher. So they're not going to, they're not going to wind back any, they're going to get higher and higher. You know, if you look at insulation of glazing, for example, you know, mean, all windows now, you know,

are becoming almost like double glazed windows. So the majority of residential buildings are gonna have double glazed windows. And that's good for the industry because double glazed windows are going to perform better thermally. But as we start to, they start to make these double glazed windows, the price of that's going to go down as well. So where I see the trend going is where building materials are starting to improve.

there's innovations in building materials and the installation requirements are just getting higher and higher.

Jess Kismet (36:23)

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Get on board or... Yeah. Yes, it is. Is it true that... I'll get a little bit political here for a minute about American election, Donald Trump. I heard that he was eliminating their energy star system over there. we have our NatHERS Star ratings here in Australia. Have you heard this? Is that true?

James Pinyon (36:25)

That's where I see the trend going. The trend is going up. The trend is up.

I haven't heard it, it wouldn't surprise me. I haven't heard it, but it wouldn't surprise me. lot of, the way I see it, and I've had the same thing myself, whereas I did an extension to a little shack that we have, and I insulated under the floor. Now, my own dad was saying, what are you insulating under the floor for? Heat rises, it doesn't go down. The older, and not to...

Jess Kismet (36:55)

No!

James Pinyon (37:17)

⁓ put a, to generalise on this, but a lot of the times the older generation that didn't really have insulation or have to put insulation in there, are probably finding themselves at a point in the saying, this is just adding extra cost to the building, is that adding extra work to the contractors? Why do we need it? They've been used to living in cold buildings, they've been used to living in hot buildings. It's us that are sort of growing up and having to insulate.

Jess Kismet (37:25)

Mm.

Mm.

Yeah.

James Pinyon (37:45)

and now know that insulation really works. matters. I believe that, and the reason why I'm still here after 20 years is I know that living in a building that is just, that you just can't keep warm in the winter and living in a building that you just can't keep cool in the summer is really unhealthy for you. If you're getting a cold or the flu three or four times a year, because you just cannot keep it.

Jess Kismet (37:45)

Mm.

Yeah.

James Pinyon (38:14)

not keep the building warm, that is really unhealthy for you. I, it's unhealthy for everyone. Yeah. So I, I, I just think that the, a lot of the older generation see insulation as just an extra cost and extra work. So I wouldn't be surprised if Donald Trump is doing that. I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Research won't let me know.

Jess Kismet (38:18)

Yeah, it's unhealthy for everyone, everyone around you.

I'm going to have to research that and find out.

Yeah. my goodness. Okay. Final question I ask everybody out of everything, all the experience you've got, everything you've learned through your career, what is the one thing you want the industry to know?

James Pinyon (38:44)

Okay.

Probably insulation matters. Insulation really does matter. Like I just mentioned, living in a ⁓ cold building throughout winter, in a building that you just cannot keep warm is so unhealthy. Like I said, getting a cold three or four times a year is not good for you.

Jess Kismet (38:54)

Take your time.

James Pinyon (39:13)

I've lived in buildings, I've lived in houses where I can feel cold air rushing over my feet when I'm sitting on the lounge, you know, because the seals between the, yeah, because the seals between the floor and the walls are not sealed up properly, or the seals under the doors are not sealed, but there's things we can do about that. Just things we need. One thing I would say is,

Jess Kismet (39:24)

Yeah, haven't we all?

James Pinyon (39:42)

If you've got a building that is letting cold air rush in throughout winter, can, you know, with the use of a lot of silicon, a lot of silicon tubes, you can actually cork them up or no more gaps. You can caulk them up. You can put seals underneath doors. can. And, you know, there's a lot of things you can do for a relatively low cost that can make a difference. You don't have to go out and spend thousands.

of dollars on new insulation, pulling plasterboard off, re-insulating, recladding the outside. There's a lot of things you can do to make a building perform better in these colder months and these warmer months.

Jess Kismet (40:28)

Right on, right on. Thank you, James. Well, I think that's all the questions I had for you today. So thank you for taking the time out of your day to talk to me. I really appreciate it.

James Pinyon (40:38)

No worries at all. Okay, thanks for that. I look forward to hearing it come out.

Jess Kismet (40:45)

Cool. And yeah, I will chase you up on your launch and we'll do a bonus episode. Sounds good. All right, thanks, James.

James Pinyon (40:50)

Yes, okay. Okay, great. Good on you. Okay,

thanks Jess. Talk to you soon. Okay, bye.

Jess Kismet (40:58)

Okay.