Aug. 3, 2025

#16 - Nerding Out on Better Builds with Sean Buchanan

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In this episode, I chat to Sean Buchanan, an incredible builder from Northern Tasmania, to explore his journey into the world of building science. Sean shares his insights on the importance of creating durable and healthy homes, the challenges faced in the industry, and his vision for the future. Tune in to learn how Sean is making a difference in the construction world and inspiring the next generation of builders. He's the cool nerd we all need in our lives!

Show notes can be found here

Thanks for listening. Happy healthy building!

Transcript

Jess Kismet (00:00)

Hello and welcome to the Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. My name is Jess Kismet and today I am speaking with Sean Buchanan. Sean is a builder from Northern Tasmania and the founder of Haven Homes. He is a hugely committed advocate for better buildings and with a background in carpentry and a deep respect for building science, Sean's work really stands out.

He's as nerdy as they come when it comes to healthy, durable construction and being in the cold, wet Tasmanian climate means that understanding the science of buildings is essential.

I'm about to learn a thing or two, I reckon. So regardless of where you are in the world or whether you're on the tools, designing homes or equally passionate about better buildings, I think you are too. Welcome, Sean.

Sean (00:38)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I love it that I'm in the nerd category.

Jess Kismet (00:41)

No problem at all.

I definitely are. If our Instagram DMs are anything to go by, you definitely qualify. absolutely is. Absolutely is. I think we, it's a badge of honor actually. So you have, you've built a reputation for high performance homes in Tasmania. What first got you interested in this way of building?

Sean (00:46)

Hahaha.

Yeah, no, it's the new in thing I think including so

Yeah, definitely.

Jess Kismet (01:11)

rather than the conventional way. Did it come through your apprenticeship or was that something you decided to do?

Sean (01:17)

Definitely not through my apprenticeship. Done a lot of rogue things over the years. Well, not rogue things, but pretty normal, right? Like conventional building, it's not really that great, not really that durable, not really that healthy. And I guess, I think I sort of saw Matt Risinger his stuff on like, it must've just popped up on the YouTube feed one day. Got into a bit of that, thought that was pretty interesting.

looked at the Passivhaus stuff, thought that was pretty interesting too. And then when it was when I found Joe Lstiburek's lectures, that's when I really like fell into a never ending black hole, I think, where you just don't really, and I'd like be searching down all the lectures, trying to suck as much information as I could. I think, and I think the way he communicates, cause he's like pretty funny, right? And that was just easy to digest, easy to digest the information.

Jess Kismet (02:11)

Yeah, he's very dry.

Sean (02:16)

So yeah, was like a self-inflicted rabbit hole that I've put myself in. Yeah, it wasn't through any sort of mandatory training or apprenticeship style learning. was very much post my apprenticeship. Yeah, like.

Jess Kismet (02:31)

So it must be like an inherent value you've got, because not a lot of builders choose to go down this route. ⁓ I know plenty who just, even if they made aware of it, don't want to learn about it.

Sean (02:37)

Mm.

Yeah,

I think sometimes when you stumble upon things yourself, it's easier to take like if someone's trying to tell you that you're it really wrong. For some people that's hard to stomach, right? But I guess maybe because I stumbled across this myself and then had that like internal reflection, maybe that's not actually right.

Jess Kismet (02:59)

Hahaha

Sean (03:13)

And then building some like some houses over the years and then noticing water getting in in places that you wouldn't think it would get in. then like, yeah, just getting that higher understanding of like, the cladding that's just, that's just a layer, but we need to be watertight before the cladding. That's where it all sort of started. That's where I started and then getting the hose out and putting it on things. And you go inside and you're like, gee, shit, that's interesting. Like there's.

Jess Kismet (03:41)

No.

Sean (03:41)

It's now, so how about we fix that now? Yeah.

Jess Kismet (03:45)

Have you ever had any instances where you haven't known where the water's coming from? Like condensation, for example, couldn't drip from all sorts of places and it's not necessarily obvious where it's coming from. Have you ever had anything like that?

Sean (03:50)

⁓

Yeah, water's pretty funny, like, especially once you get into like capillary action and that sort of stuff. I don't think there's been one that's, that I haven't resolved. But that doesn't mean that there hasn't been ones that hasn't taken me a long time to figure out. I just think I'm a bit of a dog with a bone, like I just won't let it go. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yep.

Jess Kismet (04:01)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yep, yep, you gotta be. You gotta be.

So what does better building mean to you personally? Not just technically, but in terms of like the longer term outcomes and value in your own values.

Sean (04:35)

Well, I think it from what I've learned over the years it changed it's changed for me personally what I feel is doing a good job like when you're a You're a carpenter and you like hanging a door and the margins are all perfect or you're fitting architraves and skirting and it's like fits together really nice or you're building a deck and all everything's looking perfect. That was how

I would assess myself as being a carpenter. That was like the first standard that I went to from not knowing anything about how buildings work. And then once I started to learn a bit about more building science and water management, weather tightness, all that sort of stuff, there was like a shift that happened. like, ⁓ that it looking good is like very important, but that's like one part of it.

If it doesn't last, then that's like, how can you call yourself a good carpenter? If you build a structure that's not going to stand up, like it's not going to stand up to test of time. So I think, yeah, there was like that mental shift of what it means to me to be a good carpenter is also making it like durable and healthy and things like that.

Jess Kismet (05:55)

So like personal integrity.

Sean (05:57)

Yeah, yeah. You want to be like, you don't want to get the call right. Okay, there's water inside. Yeah. Yep.

Jess Kismet (06:04)

No. And it was any like,

like, suppose, you know, the legal ramifications of a crappy building, like warranty issues and stuff like that. Was that your driver at all? Like avoiding those sorts of callbacks like you just said, or was it more of a like, I just want to know all of this so I can just do the best I can.

Sean (06:22)

⁓

Yeah, like an intrinsic value, I guess. And there's like, when I'm trying to like, when I'm talking to other builders about it, there's like two conversations you have, I feel like there's like high performance. Oh, the client loves that high performance is energy efficient. And then when I talk to builders like, how about let's just not end up in court because you're building lakes, like all high performance dressing up, whatever you want to call it. How about let's just like,

Jess Kismet (06:30)

Yeah.

Sean (06:55)

focus on you not getting sued for building a crappy building that doesn't manage water correctly or something like that.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (07:08)

What mistakes or inefficiencies do you still see in the Tasmanian industry that you think it's time that we sort of stop doing and got past? Or even Australia, but you're local to Tasmania. So anything, anything locally that you can pick up on that you think is high time we move past?

Sean (07:29)

I guess like getting more cla- This is probably Australia. Well, I think about like getting more clarity around the like internal waterproofing standards and codes. Like it's just such a shit show. It seems like that you do one thing one way and a building. So we happy with that. And then you do something the same way on a different job and different buildings. So they're not happy with that. I'm having endless conversations with builders about like

Jess Kismet (07:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean (07:56)

There just seems to be no clarity around around that. So I feel like if they could fix that, there seems to be conflicting standards and which standard overrules a different standard in a certain situation. I think there's a lot of frustration around that.

Jess Kismet (08:10)

Yeah, right.

Was there a change in the 2022 code around waterproofing bathrooms? Yeah.

Sean (08:19)

I believe there is. did, I actually did

a course that was meant to unpack and simplify everything. And I actually found it, I was more confused at the end of the course. Cause all they did was talk. It was very problem focused. I didn't feel like there was very many sort of solutions to that. And they're like, Oh, look, it says here to do this, but it says there to do that. And then I just got pretty disheartened with the whole thing at the end. It was like, Oh, we just want to know what to do. Right? We just want to know what the best practice is. Um, yeah.

Jess Kismet (08:41)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that the issue with building certifiers is so broad. I just think that they are under so much pressure to get so much right that I think things just fall off the wagon so easy. And some of them are more likely to agree with builders that they know, like let things go when they have a relationship with that builder. ⁓

Sean (09:03)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (09:14)

And it's risky as I saw, I read an article yesterday that in New Zealand, they're actually moving towards self, self certification for builders. That's the builders can and plumbers and plumbers can sign off on their own work.

Sean (09:23)

Hmm interesting

Yeah.

Yeah, interesting.

Jess Kismet (09:32)

to try and reduce

the backlog because they're so heavily overworked. They're trying to figure out ways to reduce the workload on these certifiers. And that to me seems like an absolutely crazy idea, but getting desperate.

Sean (09:39)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean,

like, the big thing that changes the whole industry, think, is the collaboration. And you start to see a bit of that movement, like really take off now. I know on this project that we're currently doing, we know, like, we know that waterproofing is such a big issue, right? So we like sat down with the building surveyor before we did any work. And we both got really clear on what we thought the best practice was and how we were going to go about it. And then

you don't have, cause we're just like, we don't have that awkward conversation when you come to site and we've gone and done some things that are pretty expensive and you're not happy with the way it's detailed. How about we just talk about it now and we'll save everyone some time and money. I think, yeah, like planning, like, yeah. And give it, giving yourself the time, giving yourself time to like, have a conversation about it and flesh it out rather than just doing what you think is right. then

Jess Kismet (10:22)

Yep.

Yep. Planning. Prior preparation.

Sean (10:42)

someone else who's signing off on it's like, that's not it, mate.

Jess Kismet (10:46)

Yeah, yep. Do you design in-house or do you work with architects?

Sean (10:50)

Nah, we work with architects. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (10:54)

Are there any particular material systems or design strategies that you find yourself returning to again and again because they just work?

Sean (11:00)

Thank

Probably like the easiest one is the ventilated cavities like we've got that dialed in Pretty good now and like how to make the finishing of those ventilated cavities look quite architectural and nice Yeah, that is like the lowest hanging fruit and then just the yeah and just like The best bang for your buck for safety

Jess Kismet (11:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

It totally is. Yep.

Sean (11:29)

It's like just giving yourself that gap and having good drainage path and getting some air in there and stuff like that. That is like.

Jess Kismet (11:30)

Yeah.

Yeah, you did it. actually

saw a reel that you did the other day on the vented cavity. I didn't actually get to watch it, but I saved it so I could watch it later.

Sean (11:44)

Yeah,

I think that was on the business page where like, so I got two different, well, I three Instagrams, personal one, don't really use that anymore. ⁓ The Tassie Builders blog, which is, ⁓ I guess, trade focused. Like, I just want it to be like showing.

Jess Kismet (11:50)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the one where

that's the one that all the trades know where you do all your detailing and you're

Sean (12:07)

Yeah, and then the Haven Homes one is very much client focused. So I think that video that I did on ventilated cavities was very, want to keep it very brief, not scientifically complex and talking about vapor permeability and all this shit, like, just keep it really simple. Cause at the end of the day, like we want our clients to understand.

Jess Kismet (12:21)

Yep.

Sean (12:33)

what we do and we pride ourselves on building something that's very durable. So it's good to have that educational content of like why we're a bit different, why we do things a bit differently to other builders.

Jess Kismet (12:43)

Yeah, Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. Keeping it simple is just definitely the way to go for the uninitiated.

Sean (12:50)

Well, I feel like there's,

well, there's a saying, right? that if you understand something really, someone that understands something really well can explain it really simple. then like people that don't understand it so well, they try and use all these fancy fricking words that they probably don't even understand just gets confusing. So you can like pick the people it's like, ⁓ you, you know what you're talking about? Cause you can break that down to a level that yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (13:02)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know which bits to leave out.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. think it's something like if you can explain it to a five-year-old, you have to be able to explain something to a five-year-old in simple terms.

Sean (13:26)

Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It's a skill in itself.

Jess Kismet (13:33)

Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of education, what do you think Tasmania's position is on industry education? Are they, you know, pretty proactive?

Sean (13:44)

⁓ I mean, we've got some condensation management courses that, ⁓ Clarence has put together with Master Builders And I don't know. I'm not aware of other States doing delivering like educational stuff like that through an industry body. So that's pretty good. Like we should be right. Cause we're climate zone 7. So it's gonna happen. Like, yeah, we're in the thick of it down here, but like,

Jess Kismet (13:53)

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Sean (14:13)

And they're constantly developing that course. I think there's two or three iterations of it now. It's a pretty good building community, I think, in Tasmania. Everyone shares their ideas and stuff like that, which is really positive. I'm not sure what it's like over where you are, if it's pretty similar.

Jess Kismet (14:19)

Yeah.

Inside

Australia, it's pretty poor. The collaboration and education is pretty poor. I'd say in Melbourne, it's a lot better. Melbourne and Tasmania, just guess being the wettest, coldest sort of climates in Australia, they have, like you don't really have a choice but to be across this stuff. And somehow you guys have all managed to just work really well together and sharing information and supporting each other, which is really great.

Sean (14:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (15:01)

Doesn't happen here. It doesn't happen here in South Australia. It's not the same.

Sean (15:01)

It's ⁓ yeah, that's odd. Yeah, it's really odd. wonder what that is. Maybe Taz is like pretty small demographic. So I don't know if it's like that.

Jess Kismet (15:12)

But Melbourne,

yeah, Melbourne's like, it's big, you know, it's big. But yeah, we just seem to.

Sean (15:17)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk.

The way I see it is like, got passed down this industry from my boss and now it's my industry and I've got to do a good job like being a custodian of looking after it and making sure you're good buildings. And then like with our apprentice coming up and I say to him, like, mate, like I'm not going to be around forever. Like it's going to be your responsibility when I'm like, when I've hung up the nail bag, you're going to have to carry the torch and like fight the good fight, I guess.

Jess Kismet (15:36)

Yep.

Yeah.

So speaking of apprentices, you said you didn't learn any of stuff in your apprenticeship. ⁓ I think it's much more part of the industry now. So the apprentices now are gaining the benefit of the knowledge of people like yourself. So what's your method of training your apprentices?

Sean (16:07)

⁓

Jess Kismet (16:08)

Like, you specifically have things you teach them or is it just like, this is what a vented cavity is? is, make sure you staple this correctly.

Sean (16:16)

no, we got a lot into why the why. Yep. Yeah. Just because we've seen. Yeah. they love it. Yeah, they love it. We're actually like, it's not off the ground yet. But man, another mate, we're actually going to do some stuff with TAS TAFE like around the weather tightness. Yeah, like, I'm pretty passionate about getting that implemented into the like curriculum of just teaching them like

Jess Kismet (16:18)

Yeah, okay. And they buy in.

yeah?

Sean (16:42)

Why we put the wrap on, like what its function is. Probably shouldn't be getting water in your house once the wraps on before the roof's on, it's all should be taped up and just teach them like the basics. Cause yeah, that's something I want to really implement in the industry to like help affect change. Cause it's like that younger generation. They're the ones that are going to steer the ship when I'm gone. So pass on that knowledge of what we've learned over the years.

Jess Kismet (16:55)

Yep.

Yeah.

Sean (17:10)

to make sure it like we keep moving forward.

Jess Kismet (17:11)

Yep.

Yep, yep. Did they see you do things like put on your mega fans and test the moisture in the timber? Did they see you do things like that? Yep.

Sean (17:21)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Like our apprentice that we got, he's just great because he gets it like he there's no, he just, he just gets it. So it's really good. Yeah, it's really good to have any any so passionate about it. And he's running around with the hose to check and stuff, you know, and like, so it's just good. Like he's just as crazy as we are. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (17:34)

So good.

Well what you want, that is what you need. You need

them crazy people on board. Equally nerdy.

Sean (17:51)

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah. he's super smart, too. Like he's, he's teaching us how to do stuff sometimes. You're like, wow. Yeah, that's good. He'll be here very good guy to carry the torch forward in the good fight.

Jess Kismet (18:08)

That's so good. That's like we do have a team, like building a team you can trust.

Sean (18:10)

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

Jess Kismet (18:16)

Have there been moments in your career where you had to push back against the norm or say no to practices you didn't believe in?

Sean (18:24)

Yeah, definitely.

Jess Kismet (18:24)

and how

did that experience shape your approach now?

Sean (18:30)

Um, I guess it's just taught me the, um, the importance of being a good communicator. think that's so important because like, we would say we want to do something a certain way and people have these objections, but you have to help. Like you've got to, I don't know, take your ego out of it, of you being right and like be able to break it down in a way that

they understand and they can like see it from their perspective and help them come around and try and see it from your perspective. real like really love the communication side of it and making sure people understand the importance of it and things like that.

Jess Kismet (19:11)

So is that with a client you're talking about or with an architect? Like if you had to redirect.

Sean (19:14)

⁓

Not so much with clients or architects more just with other trades. Yeah, adding on the importance of like So like a way wasting time doing that. Yeah. well actually not a waste of time if you know this certain thing Yeah, like that doesn't happen like it's a matter of fact it does because I've seen it leak Yeah

Jess Kismet (19:23)

Okay, yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. The why.

Hmm. Yeah. Like

what, what, do you have an example you can think of? Like a, like a skylight or like what's your example?

Sean (19:45)

⁓

Yeah, just more like, connect the windows into the walls and things like that and detailing the wrap and what's a good job of doing the wrap and what's a shit job and how that shows up later down the track. Yeah. The connections.

Jess Kismet (20:01)

So this wrap business, so

the house that you're building at the moment for those who haven't seen it, check out the, is it on your Haven Homes page more or your Tassie Builders blog? Check out the Instagram pages of Sean's. The links will be in the show notes. The house he's building at the moment is absolutely epic. it is, mean, it's a bit dark now, Sean. We can't see the view anymore, but. ⁓

Sean (20:11)

Yeah, it's on the Haven Holmes page. Yeah.

Yeah, it's actually blocked out

there now. Wow.

Jess Kismet (20:32)

Yeah, the view is insane. The project itself is insane.

It's top, top end project. ⁓ But if you, you know, talking about wraps and things, all that beautiful wrap is underneath all the cladding. Have you had any, before this project, what's, is this the first one you implemented all of this stuff on or have you been building this into your project before now?

Sean (20:55)

⁓ yeah, it's been implemented over say the last three or four years. I guess like that's the journey I've been on over the last three or four years. ⁓

Jess Kismet (21:05)

incrementally

or did you start like

Sean (21:08)

Definitely incrementally. Yeah, you just started using I don't know normal wraps right? We won't say brand names but normal wraps you get from the hardware store and then normal tapes and then you're like, oh that's actually kind of shit I wonder if you can get a better tape So then you switch to a better type and you're like, huh? I'm pressing on this wrap and I can nearly press through it. I wonder if there's a better one we can use Okay, then you find the better one and then you'd like it's just you yeah, you always find a new and

exciting things with it and then it's like, fuck is this endless, right? Like, am I ever going to be am I ever going to be done finding finding stuff? Yeah, but it's good. Like, it's getting more and more available to get the good quality building products. And I think there's a lot of marketing going on out there to educate people. And I think once you understand the function of them, when you use them as a tradesman,

Jess Kismet (21:42)

Yeah.

Sean (22:06)

And you can feel how durable and how strong it is and you see how it performs in the wind and like not getting water inside your building. It's like getting a new tool, right? You're like, I've got this awesome new saw. It's sweet. It's the same with the wraps and the tapes and all that sort of stuff. It's like, this actually just makes my life easier.

Jess Kismet (22:26)

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't think you ever, you you say, don't, will it ever end? I mean, I'm still learning. I've been doing this for, you just never stop learning. I'm learning more about timber performance. And at the moment I'm speaking to, you mentioned Clarence and his training modules earlier. I'm learning about timber treatments and things I had no idea about. Yeah.

Sean (22:37)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that sounds really interesting.

Like, I don't know a heap about that. So I'm sure you'll be able to educate me on that.

Jess Kismet (22:53)

Yeah.

Well, that's the idea. Because honestly, it's not something I hear people talk about, really. ⁓ The whole timber supply chains and where it all comes from and how it's treated and, you know, yeah, fascinating stuff. ⁓ So do you think, you know, all of the talk about energy efficiency or the training modules and all the stuff that happens around the place, do you think any of that gets lost in translation when it comes to site?

Sean (23:00)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (23:25)

And do you use the same trades on every project? You do. So they are obviously there. Yeah, yeah, they they get taught your ways and that's you can rely on that. But in your sort of previous experience or a lot of knowledge around the industry, do you think it gets lost in translation? The sustainability stuff.

Sean (23:46)

Yeah, I think so. ⁓

Yeah, I think products get sold and then overhyped up and people don't understand the fundamentals behind certain products and then you'll see a product installed in a way that's not gonna like because I've read the flashy label like, it's this ultra hyper like high performance. I hate that everything like you get duct tape that's high performance with a staples right?

Jess Kismet (24:08)

You

Sean (24:15)

We bought all these staples for putting the wrap on or whatever and they're like high performance staples. I'm like, of course it is. Is it such a, I feel like high performance is such a buzzword. Kills me. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (24:23)

Then you green.

God,

God. Yeah, I mean.

Sean (24:33)

But

yeah, like, I feel like, yeah, it's, you got to understand a bit of the fundamentals, and then you can make your decisions on like, that's gonna be a good, good choice or whatnot, not just like lapping up what the rep tells you for the latest and greatest thing. Because everything like, like all the like, we've done Zara's healthy homes course, right? And that's like,

Jess Kismet (24:52)

reps for the most part.

Sean (25:02)

very nerdy and very eye opening of she's looked a lot deeper than what people say about the labels and she gets the material data and she's like, that's probably not what you're saying. It's like low VOC But when I look at the metrics for what low VOC It's actually probably not as good as what that could be. I feel like there's a lot of that in the industry. Maybe it's not enough regulation or what it is, but yeah.

Jess Kismet (25:21)

Yeah.

Yeah, I found when I first started doing this energy efficiency stuff, like years and years ago, people would come to me thinking that a building wrap was the same as insulation. Like the foils, they think that it would perform the same as insulation. They still think it. They still think that if you put a foil in your walls, ⁓ that, you know, it's going to make the wall amazing. And it's just not the case. It has a good function depending on the product, but the application and the type of product makes a massive difference. And there's just

Sean (25:35)

Mm.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (25:58)

zero understanding about any of that.

Sean (26:00)

Yeah. And that's where I think it, ⁓ like it's going to be fed from the bottom, right? So if we can educate the apprentices coming through now about some of these principles, then they're going to be better armed with some tools to when someone like a rep's telling them something about a certain product, you'd like, well, I understand the fundamentals of this. And like, that's just not what that's just not right. What you're saying. Like, well, it's not as what it's not as good as what you're saying it is.

Jess Kismet (26:25)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and that education for the trades and the apprentices is crucial in product selection as well, because often you'll find products specified and up we get coming back to building wrap. But that's just the best example of a product that gets specified on the plans by an architect. And if the tradesman purchasing that product doesn't understand the difference between this class and that class of building wrap or this product and that product, then the chances are they're going to choose a product of lower quality or lower cost.

Sean (26:58)

Mmm.

Jess Kismet (26:58)

and

have knock-on impacts on the house or actually push it into non-building code compliance without even knowing. And that's something that is a big, I find that a big concern.

Sean (27:06)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's ⁓ yeah, like it's just, it's real easy to get right. So if we could just like, I'll just tell people like the cladding, yeah, whatever you can pull your cladding off and redo that. But if we don't get the, like the wrap right, like, like cladding is it's a, ⁓ like it's got a life span, right? Like it, it'll have a use by date where it's going to be, have to be pulled off at some stage where that's like,

50 years, 70 years or whatever, but it's what's behind the cladding that has that massive impact on what is gonna make your home durable and stand up, stand the test of time. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (27:53)

Mm. Yeah,

absolutely. Has there been anything about construction that you used to believe that you've changed your mind on? Anything inherent?

Sean (28:05)

⁓

yeah, definitely that. ⁓ going quick is good. Like, and I'll like speed, speed is, is a good thing and speed on site. Like, yeah, just coming up through my career, like we used to work so fast and put houses together so quickly and just miss so many critical steps. I think just.

Jess Kismet (28:33)

Is that something you were

taught during your apprenticeship? just like leading by example, these trades would just like knock it up. Yeah.

Sean (28:35)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it was just

like this ultra, like ultra efficiency machine churning out houses and it's like, there's so many, like you can still do an efficient. Don't get me wrong. You can still be efficient and you can still work efficiently. But yeah, you just need to take time, some time to get things right. And as you get better at doing that, like you get more efficient in that.

Yeah, just like missing so many criticals. Like we used to put the wrap on, not even tape any of the seams or anything like that, not tape it in around the windows. Never used to use cavities. just like, make sure you set your studs out so you don't have to put battens on so you can nail it all off. I think back to that now, it's like far out. But the biggest thing I think, and,

Jess Kismet (29:32)

So for that, there

you go.

Sean (29:36)

Yeah, the biggest thing I think like how I used to think was like, yeah, speed is doing something quickly is everything. And you want that like you've got that drive inside you that like I want to be good, efficient tradesman. I want to get these walls up today. I want to do this today. But and that still have like you still have that little bug inside you. But yeah, there's like, yeah, but we've got to do that correctly. So we've got to do that in the right sequence and with the right products and things like that.

Jess Kismet (30:05)

Yeah, you can tell from your social media presence that you are now quite meticulous.

Sean (30:11)

Yeah, yeah we do, yeah we do go down the rabbit hole a lot at work, but it's just like...

Jess Kismet (30:13)

Yeah.

Sean (30:21)

It's really enjoyable because everyone's so on board with it and everyone has a different perspective. So you capture a lot of things. You're like, but we have, have you thought about how that is going to work? Like not even just with building science, but like we follow on consequences, aesthetically and stuff like that. We are, we do pride ourselves on being very, ⁓ yeah, detail oriented and we all, we all get a lot out of that.

Jess Kismet (30:48)

And how long has that cladding taken so far?

Sean (30:51)

Probably three and a half months, I reckon. And another two months to go. Yeah. Just on the cladding. There's over seven kilometres of ship lap timber cladding going on. Yeah, that's the most, that's, yeah.

Jess Kismet (31:01)

Just on cladding. ⁓

Holy moly. Does that get boring?

Sean (31:17)

not particularly because how we do it, it's very systemised like there's a guy that only cuts boards, right? So we'll, we'll figure out when we're doing the angled walls, we're like, okay, well the boards increase in this instance, 29 mm per board at 12 degrees. And then we'll write a cut list for that bloke.

and then he'll just go and hang out at the drop store all day and he stacks out on a bench so he knows where all his joins are and stuff like that. And then you'll have guys fitting, guys coming back and screwing off, we're doing quite a bit of detailing around the corners and the seals. But when you get sick of that, you just swap jobs. So like if you do two days on the store, you're like, right, I'm gonna go on the wall for the rest of the week. But everyone wants to be on the sort because you can put the headphones in, listen to music, you've got your list.

Jess Kismet (32:00)

Yeah, OK.

Yeah.

Sean (32:09)

You don't have to deal with the

complexities of installing and making sure things are plumb and working to the right marks. You can just sit on the saw and cut. So that's like the, everyone fights for that job.

Jess Kismet (32:17)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. That sounds like the sweet spot. Yeah.

Sean (32:20)

Yeah,

Jess Kismet (32:22)

So if you had the power to change one section of the National Construction Code, what would it be?

Sean (32:38)

More mandatory inspections. No one wants to hear that. Yeah. But how can we go from

Jess Kismet (32:42)

you

Sean (32:48)

frames that like it's just there's so much stuff that can get missed from getting your frame signed off till the next inspection. It's just freaking crazy.

Jess Kismet (32:57)

Which is when?

Can you take us through what the inspection requirements are in Tasmania? Because they're different from state to state.

Sean (33:04)

Yeah, so we'll get like a like a reinfor- foundation inspection. So that inspects the footings in your slide. And then they'll come and inspect the frame. And then like you got the bank inspections that are really matter. But then it's like practical completion after that. So it's for practical completion, all that you've got like a

Jess Kismet (33:20)

And what do they check at practical? Yeah, because once the

slabs okay and once the frame is being ticked off as compliant with the building code or whatever, what is it at practical completion that could be picked up?

Sean (33:30)

Yeah.

Making sure that you've

got like the appropriate amenities instead like you got a kitchen, functioning bathroom, laundry, things like that. Yeah, it's like, what about the insulation has? Yeah.

Jess Kismet (33:45)

making sure you've got a kitchen. Pretty

sure you wouldn't have a client if you didn't have a kitchen. ⁓

Sean (33:49)

Yeah, but ⁓

what about the insulation inspection? What about testing the air conditioning condensation drains to make sure they don't leak? Because that's a like, what about testing the plumbing wastes to make sure they don't leak? Like what about all the things that are going to cost you heaps of money? Like if they fail? Why don't we have like we do our own internal checks, right? Just because we're nerdy about that sort of stuff.

Jess Kismet (34:01)

Mm.

Yeah, but yeah, you

guys have got that level of integrity that means that you will check for yourself.

Sean (34:22)

Yeah, but it's yeah, like I don't want to overregulate things. just feel like insulation is a massive one for like getting that right and it just yeah, it's done very poorly like it that is always something that is a lot of effort to get right is like making sure the insulation is installed correctly and it's yeah.

Jess Kismet (34:32)

Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm.

Sean (34:51)

That is always the one you're like getting them back. You're like, nah. See that you've got 15 pieces of insulation stuffed in one stud bay. However, we just put like one bat instead of all your off cuts. yeah, it is crazy. Yeah. And you see it all over Instagram, right? The insulation jobs and that. You're like, what the hell? Yeah.

Jess Kismet (35:05)

wow. It's so hard though.

yeah, I know. I

look at some of the ones that I've got on my ⁓ camera, like photo bank from the builders I work with and they're just so satisfying. It's so pretty. They're so nice. It's so neat. And then I see other ones and I'm like, ⁓ geez.

Sean (35:22)

Mmm. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah, it'd

be good if there was like a cost competitive product that wasn't itchy like fiberglass is just so popular. would be if wood fiber could be more like economical for cost or something like that. Or if we could just insulate externally like that would make it a whole lot easier, but it's expensive, right?

Jess Kismet (35:36)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ it is. it's so much for people to wrap their heads around. Insulating externally is like another stratosphere to what we do here. Yeah.

Sean (35:52)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you think it'll ever

get to that external insulation? Do you ever think that will be a common thing or do you reckon it's just so cost prohibitive?

Jess Kismet (36:13)

Building code.

Sean (36:15)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (36:17)

Phwoar..

I probably not. Probably not. ⁓ I don't know, just logistically, just, you know, if it's hard enough to get builders or carpenters to switch out one wrap for another wrap and tape it properly, just the mental shift is so hard, then getting them to shift from, you know, stud insulation to external insulation. The only place I can see that would be really, really valuable.

Sean (36:26)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (36:52)

⁓ would be in steel frame homes. That needs to happen ⁓ because sticking insulation inside a steel frame is like a drop in the ocean. You may as well not even worry about it. So external insulation for steel frame.

Sean (36:55)

Yeah.

Yeah, yep. And do you see much of that?

Do you see much of that steel frame, like I don't see much of that now market is that popularly really? And what's the go that is it like cheaper to do or something like, I'm a carpenter so we have like saws that cut timber like I don't want to go build a house with a riveter and a set of tin snips.

Jess Kismet (37:12)

It's everywhere. Everywhere in Adelaide.

No, I know, right? I don't get

it either. I don't get it either. every time I every time I see a steel framed house, I'm just like, ⁓ it's just, just because I know what I know. It just makes me I just feel really sorry for the for the owners of the house, because they're just building problems that they they're not quite aware of. Although I mean, I have to say I haven't despite steel being such a poor performing product in terms of

Sean (37:42)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (37:52)

building science and their thermal efficiency. I haven't heard in my personal travels too many horror stories. I've heard lots across the industry, but I haven't heard too many from people directly. you know, that's good. But I know that they're out there and I just, yeah, it's externally insulating steel. And the biggest problem is like the modular industry is a lot of that is steel.

Sean (38:08)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (38:23)

And that's based on speed. They want to get these buildings done quickly. And then you tell them they've got to do a different wrap or externally insulate. And it changes their whole system. so that's just, again, cost prohibitive, system prohibitive, mental shift prohibitive. ⁓

Sean (38:37)

Yeah.

And so how does, like how are those buildings even code compliant? Like if condensation is now listed in the building code.

How can you install a regular aluminium window? That's what I can't understand. Because I know, because I've seen them, like I'm like, ⁓ look condensation where we thought it was. And if we know that happens, like, how does that get signed off? That's always fascinated me.

Jess Kismet (38:58)

Yeah.

Well, aluminium windows,

⁓ that's not part of the condensation requirements. Obviously, we know that's a massive thermal bridge, but there's no requirements around window frames and condensation. That's all roof and walls.

Sean (39:18)

Hmm.

⁓

But doesn't it say, I can't remember what the wording in the code is, but it says something you must do to mitigate condensation or something like that. Like how can you say that you're mitigating condensation by putting an aluminium window in a house? you know that, hmm, like.

Jess Kismet (39:41)

It's a good point. It's a good point. And the

presentation I watched today, Tim Law did a presentation today and he says something about deemed to satisfy. ⁓ What did he say? Deemed to satisfy is not good enough. Like it has to be deemed like, what did he say? I wrote down the quote, like performance verified or something.

Sean (40:01)

Mm.

Jess Kismet (40:03)

And it was so it was just really a really ⁓ interesting thing he said because seemed to satisfy and the building code.

is not at all going to give you a building that performs well. What did he say? Oh, deemed to satisfy versus actually satisfying. Deemed to satisfy is not the same as fit for purpose. That's what he was getting at. And yeah, I don't, yeah, there's no requirements in there for mitigating condensation on aluminium window frames. And it's actually a very good point that you make.

Sean (40:21)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jess Kismet (40:43)

I hadn't thought about it in those exact terms.

Sean (40:46)

Yeah,

feel like someone's going to end up in court one day and they'll be like, yeah, but you know, aluminium windows condensate and we say in the code that you must like mitigate condensation and then that'll be the catalyst. then the aluminium manufacturing is like, no aluminium windows.

Jess Kismet (41:01)

Yeah.

Yeah, reactive rather than proactive. Sounds about right.

So what legacy are you wanting to leave behind you with Haven Homes?

Sean (41:14)

I do want to make a bit of an impact on the industry and for carpenters to understand what it means to be a carpenter and that it's not just like

I don't know. Being a tradie can get a bit of a bad wrap like, yeah, he dropped out of college and blah, blah. But it's actually such an important job, like building someone's house. It's probably like one of the biggest investments they're ever going to make. ⁓ And it has a massive impact on them, like not just financially from like a health perspective. So getting people to understand the importance of.

like how important it is to be a builder or a carpenter and like what a special job that is and the impact that you can have on people. It's not just like, it's not just a trade.

Jess Kismet (42:08)

No, and you leave a legacy with every single client and potentially every single trade you come into contact with. Like that ripple effect is huge.

Sean (42:11)

Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah, it's massive.

Yeah, like, cause I didn't used to think like that. That's sort of like, just, I've thought about a lot and what it means to me. And that that's why I want to get involved and do stuff with the TAFE so that we can, yeah, like help impact that, help educate that up and coming generation. So the industry is just moving, like, it's just moving forward. We're not taking backward steps because it's happened like all the problems. It's already happened everywhere. It's not new. None of this is new. Like, let's go look in America.

They look in New Zealand, they've stuffed it all up, it's like, we don't have to stuff it up. They've done it, they stuffed it up, we just don't do that.

Jess Kismet (42:51)

Yeah, I know. I know.

I know, and we're so slow at learning those lessons. Yeah. Okay, we have reached our final question. You have taken on the role of educator a lot on your Tassie Builders Blog Instagram page in particular. Very valuable videos that you put up there, you know, showing all of your followers how to do certain things. ⁓

Sean (43:00)

⁓ Yeah, it is very hard.

Jess Kismet (43:27)

If there's one thing that you want people to know from your everything you've learned in your career, what would that be? One, one single thing.

Sean (43:39)

That is okay to not, like, it's alright to be where you're at of not knowing how to do something well. But once you've got that awareness, it's like, then it's on you to change. No one's gonna force you to change. You've gotta take those steps yourself. So acknowledging where you're at, because that's where I was, I didn't know any of that stuff, and then took the steps to learn. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (44:04)

Yeah,

yeah, cool. That's great advice. You don't know what you don't know. And the whole point of these conversations is because when you know better, you can do better. you know, hopefully this conversation that we've just had will give someone some knowledge or some impetus to go and learn some more.

Sean (44:08)

Hmm. Yes, that's right.

Exactly.

Hmm Yeah, and the information's out there and that

Yeah, and information is out there and I think people Instagram seems to be a pretty good place for the most part like especially in the circles that I seem to hang out with everyone's really happy to share and like you can ask questions and and find things out and it's like very yeah Doesn't seem like a very judgy place. It's a very good place to learn. That's what that's been my experience anyway

Jess Kismet (44:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and that's been a real shift that, you we talked about this at the beginning of our chat. It's been such a shift. Just the sharing of information amongst builders has been so good. And the community that it's building is ⁓ so powerful. It's so good.

Sean (44:54)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, definitely. It might be that generational change to the industry too. mean, when I was coming up, we didn't really talk to other builders as such. Like we didn't really collaborate with other builders or, or like architects when I was coming up, they're like, ⁓ architects, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we're like, Hey, we want to sit down with you in the early and have the early chats and like, how good is this? We can talk about it and figure it out before we go to site and it gets expensive.

Jess Kismet (45:12)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So do you collaborate really well with your architect? Do you have one architect?

Sean (45:35)

Hmm.

Yeah, we've got a few different like we have a bit of a network of people that we like to work with. But yeah, like collaboration is massive for us. Yeah, we like getting involved. We tell like, the clients like, as soon as you like if you're sitting down with a designer, let's we want to sit into, we just want to understand the brief, you know what know what you're trying to achieve. We can like, we don't want to steer design, we just want to

Jess Kismet (45:44)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Sean (46:08)

help make sure you can get what you want and provide like add our value of like buildability and cost. That's where builders add value in those in those early things like, yeah, well, we've done this before. We've done it this way before. And it's actually not as efficient. Like, why don't we try and do it a different way like this? And we still get the same architectural outcomes. Like, yeah, that's great. Let's do it. Yeah. I'm not much of a sports person, but I just like always relate it back to

Jess Kismet (46:17)

Absolutely.

Yep. Yep. Yep. That's perfect.

Sean (46:38)

like playing a game of footy or whatever. And like if building a house is like that grand final match and you're the client, it's like, well, wouldn't you want all the players to like be on the same team and be communicating early before we rock up to site and try and do the like the grand final thing? Like, wouldn't that, wouldn't that make sense to you? I don't know.

Jess Kismet (47:00)

That's a really cool analogy and I think a lot of builders could relate to that.

Sean (47:03)

Yeah, well it's just better for everyone. Yeah, everyone's got a lot more clarity and understanding. Everyone knows what direction they're pulling in. Yeah, it's a...

Jess Kismet (47:06)

Mm.

Yeah,

it must have been quite a lonely place before all of this, like as a builder or an architect or, you know, even a trade, like everyone's just sort of in their own silo doing their own thing. It must have kind of been a bit lonely.

Sean (47:23)

Yeah. Like just

challenging to get good outcomes too. yeah, there's so many things that have got to link up and talk to each other. So that.

Jess Kismet (47:29)

Yeah.

And everyone's

pissed off with each other too. you know, isn't it pretty common that, you know, plumbers are annoyed at the electricians because they did this and carpenters are annoyed at the plasterers because they did this.

Sean (47:43)

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. And that's like, that's one of the important things of using like, just using the same trades all the time, I think, because, you know, you're going to get out of people, you know, the ex they know your expectations of them and stuff like that. ⁓ Yes, just that take it's like, I'm bringing like, as Haven homes, we're bringing our team that we'll, we can give you this great thing. Like, yeah, just

Jess Kismet (47:54)

Yeah.

Sean (48:10)

Yeah, it works for team sports, so it should work for building, right?

Jess Kismet (48:14)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good analogy. I'm going to steal that and use that in the future.

Sean (48:20)

Yeah, go for it.

Jess Kismet (48:23)

I think you were the first person to talk to me about, was it you? It have been the early days when I didn't quite, like, wasn't familiar with you. And you said that you were chocking up your bottom plates to stop water. Is that you? Packing your bottom plates? Yeah.

Sean (48:36)

Mmm, it was an idea that I was having because it like we

built through the middle of winter split level job Plates hard down come to work swimming pool Mike well, that's kind of shit, isn't it? And then and like and then there's people ⁓ Everything's got to be prefabbed and like prefabs great, but we're not doing that yet. So what are we doing? Like that's Like that's my big thing is like that's a

Jess Kismet (48:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sean (49:03)

Cool idea but that's not what we're doing here. So what are we gonna do? Everyone should build a Passivhaus Cool, not everyone's gonna build a Passivhaus So what are we gonna do? Yeah.

Jess Kismet (49:06)

Yeah, how are going to fix this? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

but even passive houses still get rained on like just because it's a Passivhaus doesn't mean that doesn't not subject to the weather. You still have to protect the timber, which is why you get the wrap on so quickly.

Sean (49:17)

Yeah.

Yeah. In, New Zealand.

Yeah. In New Zealand, they've got like, I think they're called skate plates and they go underneath. They go underneath the studs or whatever. did speak to an engineer about it and he just sort of said, like, I'd want to know. Like before you started doing that, just so could make sure that that was all going to be okay. And it's like, and then like, I haven't done it, but it's like, what are the follow on implications that we're not thinking of by doing that?

Jess Kismet (49:51)

Yeah.

Sean (49:51)

Like, yeah, it's good

Jess Kismet (49:52)

Yeah.

Sean (49:52)

for draining the water through the wet months, but does it have any follow on implications? Not sure. I'd have to, I'd have to do it and then be like, that's why. But it makes a lot of sense, especially if you're building through that, like from that aspect, if you're building, like, if you know, you're to do a build framing coming through winter, like, yeah. Cause like the houses we build are generally quite.

Jess Kismet (50:00)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's why you don't do that. Now I know.

Sean (50:21)

but have built in the past are generally quite large. So they say, we'll just get it wrapped. And it's like, yeah, but it's 550 square meters of home. You just don't just get it wrapped. Like, yeah.

Jess Kismet (50:24)

Yep. Yeah.

⁓ wow. Yep.

Sean (50:35)

Yeah, that's a lot of house.

Jess Kismet (50:35)

That's a lot of home.

All right, so on. Well, I think that is the end of our chat. We'll wrap it up there. Thank you so much for joining me. really, really appreciate your time.

Sean (56:02)

No thank you for having me, it's been great.

Jess Kismet (00:00)

He's as nerdy as they come when it comes to healthy, durable construction and being in the cold, wet Tasmanian climate means that understanding the science of buildings is essential.

Sean (00:38)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I love it that I'm in the nerd category.

Jess Kismet (00:41)

No problem at all.

Sean (00:46)

Hahaha.

Yeah, no, it's the new in thing I think including so

Yeah, definitely.

Jess Kismet (01:11)

rather than the conventional way. Did it come through your apprenticeship or was that something you decided to do?

Sean (01:17)

Jess Kismet (02:11)

Yeah, he's very dry.

Sean (02:16)

Jess Kismet (02:31)

So it must be like an inherent value you've got, because not a lot of builders choose to go down this route. ⁓ I know plenty who just, even if they made aware of it, don't want to learn about it.

Sean (02:37)

Mm.

Yeah,

Jess Kismet (02:59)

Hahaha

Sean (03:13)

Jess Kismet (03:41)

No.

Sean (03:41)

It's now, so how about we fix that now? Yeah.

Jess Kismet (03:45)

Sean (03:50)

⁓

Jess Kismet (04:01)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yep, yep, you gotta be. You gotta be.

So what does better building mean to you personally? Not just technically, but in terms of like the longer term outcomes and value in your own values.

Sean (04:35)

Jess Kismet (05:55)

So like personal integrity.

Sean (05:57)

Yeah, yeah. You want to be like, you don't want to get the call right. Okay, there's water inside. Yeah. Yep.

Jess Kismet (06:04)

No. And it was any like,

Sean (06:22)

⁓

Jess Kismet (06:30)

Yeah.

Sean (06:55)

focus on you not getting sued for building a crappy building that doesn't manage water correctly or something like that.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (07:08)

Sean (07:29)

Jess Kismet (07:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean (07:56)

Jess Kismet (08:10)

Yeah, right.

Was there a change in the 2022 code around waterproofing bathrooms? Yeah.

Sean (08:19)

I believe there is. did, I actually did

Jess Kismet (08:41)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Sean (09:03)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (09:14)

Sean (09:23)

Hmm interesting

Yeah.

Yeah, interesting.

Jess Kismet (09:32)

to try and reduce

Sean (09:39)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean,

Jess Kismet (10:22)

Yep.

Yep. Planning. Prior preparation.

Sean (10:42)

someone else who's signing off on it's like, that's not it, mate.

Jess Kismet (10:46)

Yeah, yep. Do you design in-house or do you work with architects?

Sean (10:50)

Nah, we work with architects. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (10:54)

Are there any particular material systems or design strategies that you find yourself returning to again and again because they just work?

Sean (11:00)

Thank

Jess Kismet (11:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

It totally is. Yep.

Sean (11:29)

It's like just giving yourself that gap and having good drainage path and getting some air in there and stuff like that. That is like.

Jess Kismet (11:30)

Yeah.

Yeah, you did it. actually

saw a reel that you did the other day on the vented cavity. I didn't actually get to watch it, but I saved it so I could watch it later.

Sean (11:44)

Yeah,

Jess Kismet (11:50)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the one where

that's the one that all the trades know where you do all your detailing and you're

Sean (12:07)

Jess Kismet (12:21)

Yep.

Sean (12:33)

Jess Kismet (12:43)

Yeah, Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. Keeping it simple is just definitely the way to go for the uninitiated.

Sean (12:50)

Well, I feel like there's,

Jess Kismet (13:02)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know which bits to leave out.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. think it's something like if you can explain it to a five-year-old, you have to be able to explain something to a five-year-old in simple terms.

Sean (13:26)

Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It's a skill in itself.

Jess Kismet (13:33)

Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of education, what do you think Tasmania's position is on industry education? Are they, you know, pretty proactive?

Sean (13:44)

Jess Kismet (13:53)

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Sean (14:13)

Jess Kismet (14:19)

Yeah.

Inside

Sean (14:58)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (15:01)

Doesn't happen here. It doesn't happen here in South Australia. It's not the same.

Sean (15:01)

It's ⁓ yeah, that's odd. Yeah, it's really odd. wonder what that is. Maybe Taz is like pretty small demographic. So I don't know if it's like that.

Jess Kismet (15:12)

But Melbourne,

yeah, Melbourne's like, it's big, you know, it's big. But yeah, we just seem to.

Sean (15:17)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk.

Jess Kismet (15:36)

Yep.

Yeah.

Sean (16:07)

⁓

Jess Kismet (16:08)

Like, you specifically have things you teach them or is it just like, this is what a vented cavity is? is, make sure you staple this correctly.

Sean (16:16)

Jess Kismet (16:18)

Yeah, okay. And they buy in.

yeah?

Sean (16:42)

Jess Kismet (16:55)

Yep.

Yeah.

Sean (17:10)

to make sure it like we keep moving forward.

Jess Kismet (17:11)

Yep.

Yep, yep. Did they see you do things like put on your mega fans and test the moisture in the timber? Did they see you do things like that? Yep.

Sean (17:21)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jess Kismet (17:34)

So good.

Well what you want, that is what you need. You need

them crazy people on board. Equally nerdy.

Sean (17:51)

Mmm.

Jess Kismet (18:08)

That's so good. That's like we do have a team, like building a team you can trust.

Sean (18:10)

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

Jess Kismet (18:16)

Have there been moments in your career where you had to push back against the norm or say no to practices you didn't believe in?

Sean (18:24)

Yeah, definitely.

Jess Kismet (18:24)

and how

did that experience shape your approach now?

Sean (18:30)

Jess Kismet (19:11)

So is that with a client you're talking about or with an architect? Like if you had to redirect.

Sean (19:14)

⁓

Jess Kismet (19:23)

Okay, yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. The why.

Hmm. Yeah. Like

what, what, do you have an example you can think of? Like a, like a skylight or like what's your example?

Sean (19:45)

⁓

Jess Kismet (20:01)

So this wrap business, so

Sean (20:11)

Yeah, it's on the Haven Holmes page. Yeah.

Yeah, it's actually blocked out

there now. Wow.

Jess Kismet (20:32)

Yeah, the view is insane. The project itself is insane.

Sean (20:55)

⁓ yeah, it's been implemented over say the last three or four years. I guess like that's the journey I've been on over the last three or four years. ⁓

Jess Kismet (21:05)

incrementally

or did you start like

Sean (21:08)

Jess Kismet (21:42)

Yeah.

Sean (22:06)

And you can feel how durable and how strong it is and you see how it performs in the wind and like not getting water in side your building. It's like getting a new tool, right? You're like, I've got this awesome new saw. It's sweet. It's the same with the wraps and the tapes and all that sort of stuff. It's like, this actually just makes my life easier.

Jess Kismet (22:26)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean (22:37)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that sounds really interesting.

Like, I don't know a heap about that. So I'm sure you'll be able to educate me on that.

Jess Kismet (22:53)

Yeah.

Sean (23:00)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (23:25)

Sean (23:46)

Yeah, I think so. ⁓

Jess Kismet (24:08)

You

Sean (24:15)

Jess Kismet (24:23)

Then you green.

God,

God. Yeah, I mean.

Sean (24:33)

But

Jess Kismet (24:52)

reps for the most part.

Sean (25:02)

Jess Kismet (25:21)

Yeah.

Sean (25:35)

Mm.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (25:58)

zero understanding about any of that.

Sean (26:00)

Jess Kismet (26:25)

Mm-hmm.

Sean (26:58)

Mmm.

Jess Kismet (26:58)

and

have knock-on impacts on the house or actually push it into non-building code compliance without even knowing. And that's something that is a big, I find that a big concern.

Sean (27:06)

Yeah.

50 years, 70 years or whatever, but it's what's behind the cladding that has that massive impact on what is gonna make your home durable and stand up, stand the test of time. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (27:53)

Mm. Yeah,

absolutely. Has there been anything about construction that you used to believe that you've changed your mind on? Anything inherent?

Sean (28:05)

⁓

Jess Kismet (28:33)

Is that something you were

taught during your apprenticeship? just like leading by example, these trades would just like knock it up. Yeah.

Sean (28:35)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it was just

Jess Kismet (29:32)

So for that, there

you go.

Sean (29:36)

Jess Kismet (30:05)

Yeah, you can tell from your social media presence that you are now quite meticulous.

Sean (30:11)

Yeah, yeah we do, yeah we do go down the rabbit hole a lot at work, but it's just like...

Jess Kismet (30:13)

Yeah.

Sean (30:21)

Jess Kismet (30:48)

And how long has that cladding taken so far?

Sean (30:51)

Jess Kismet (31:01)

Just on cladding. ⁓

Holy moly. Does that get boring?

Sean (31:17)

Jess Kismet (32:00)

Yeah, OK.

Yeah.

Sean (32:09)

You don't have to deal with the

complexities of installing and making sure things are plumb and working to the right marks. You can just sit on the saw and cut. So that's like the, everyone fights for that job.

Jess Kismet (32:17)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. That sounds like the sweet spot. Yeah.

Sean (32:20)

Yeah,

Jess Kismet (32:22)

So if you had the power to change one section of the National Construction Code, what would it be?

Sean (32:38)

More mandatory inspections. No one wants to hear that. Yeah. But how can we go from

Jess Kismet (32:42)

you

Sean (32:48)

frames that like it's just there's so much stuff that can get missed from getting your frame signed off till the next inspection. It's just freaking crazy.

Jess Kismet (32:57)

Which is when?

Can you take us through what the inspection requirements are in Tasmania? Because they're different from state to state.

Sean (33:04)

Jess Kismet (33:20)

And what do they check at practical? Yeah, because once the

slabs okay and once the frame is being ticked off as compliant with the building code or whatever, what is it at practical completion that could be picked up?

Sean (33:30)

Yeah.

Making sure that you've

got like the appropriate amenities instead like you got a kitchen, functioning bathroom, laundry, things like that. Yeah, it's like, what about the insulation has? Yeah.

Jess Kismet (33:45)

making sure you've got a kitchen. Pretty

sure you wouldn't have a client if you didn't have a kitchen. ⁓

Sean (33:49)

Yeah, but ⁓

Jess Kismet (34:01)

Mm.

Yeah, but yeah, you

guys have got that level of integrity that means that you will check for yourself.

Sean (34:22)

Jess Kismet (34:32)

Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm.

Sean (34:51)

Jess Kismet (35:05)

wow. It's so hard though.

yeah, I know. I

Sean (35:22)

Mmm. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah, it'd

Jess Kismet (35:36)

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ it is. it's so much for people to wrap their heads around. Insulating externally is like another stratosphere to what we do here. Yeah.

Sean (35:52)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you think it'll ever

get to that external insulation? Do you ever think that will be a common thing or do you reckon it's just so cost prohibitive?

Jess Kismet (36:13)

Building code.

Sean (36:15)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (36:17)

Phwoar..

Sean (36:26)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (36:52)

Sean (36:55)

Yeah.

Yeah, yep. And do you see much of that?

Jess Kismet (37:12)

It's everywhere. Everywhere in Adelaide.

No, I know, right? I don't get

Sean (37:42)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (37:52)

Sean (38:08)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (38:23)

Sean (38:37)

Yeah.

And so how does, like how are those buildings even code compliant? Like if condensation is now listed in the building code.

Jess Kismet (38:58)

Yeah.

Well, aluminium windows,

⁓ that's not part of the condensation requirements. Obviously, we know that's a massive thermal bridge, but there's no requirements around window frames and condensation. That's all roof and walls.

Sean (39:18)

Hmm.

⁓

Jess Kismet (39:41)

It's a good point. It's a good point. And the

Sean (40:01)

Mm.

Jess Kismet (40:03)

And it was so it was just really a really ⁓ interesting thing he said because seemed to satisfy and the building code.

Sean (40:21)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jess Kismet (40:43)

I hadn't thought about it in those exact terms.

Sean (40:46)

Yeah,

Jess Kismet (41:01)

Yeah.

Yeah, reactive rather than proactive. Sounds about right.

So what legacy are you wanting to leave behind you with Haven Homes?

Sean (41:14)

I do want to make a bit of an impact on the industry and for carpenters to understand what it means to be a carpenter and that it's not just like

like how important it is to be a builder or a carpenter and like what a special job that is and the impact that you can have on people. It's not just like, it's not just a trade.

Jess Kismet (42:08)

No, and you leave a legacy with every single client and potentially every single trade you come into contact with. Like that ripple effect is huge.

Sean (42:11)

Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah, it's massive.

They look in New Zealand, they've stuffed it all up, it's like, we don't have to stuff it up. They've done it, they stuffed it up, we just don't do that.

Jess Kismet (42:51)

Yeah, I know. I know.

Sean (43:00)

⁓ Yeah, it is very hard.

Jess Kismet (43:27)

If there's one thing that you want people to know from your everything you've learned in your career, what would that be? One, one single thing.

Sean (43:39)

Jess Kismet (44:04)

Yeah,

Sean (44:08)

Hmm. Yes, that's right.

Exactly.

Hmm Yeah, and the information's out there and that

Jess Kismet (44:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Sean (44:54)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Jess Kismet (45:12)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So do you collaborate really well with your architect? Do you have one architect?

Sean (45:35)

Hmm.

Jess Kismet (45:44)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Sean (46:08)

Jess Kismet (46:17)

Absolutely.

Yep. Yep. Yep. That's perfect.

Sean (46:38)

Jess Kismet (47:00)

That's a really cool analogy and I think a lot of builders could relate to that.

Sean (47:03)

Yeah, well it's just better for everyone. Yeah, everyone's got a lot more clarity and understanding. Everyone knows what direction they're pulling in. Yeah, it's a...

Jess Kismet (47:06)

Mm.

Yeah,

Sean (47:23)

Yeah. Like just

challenging to get good outcomes too. yeah, there's so many things that have got to link up and talk to each other. So that.

Jess Kismet (47:29)

Yeah.

And everyone's

Sean (47:43)

Yeah, yeah,

Jess Kismet (47:54)

Yeah.

Sean (48:10)

Yeah, it works for team sports, so it should work for building, right?

Jess Kismet (48:14)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good analogy. I'm going to steal that and use that in the future.

Sean (48:20)

Yeah, go for it.

Jess Kismet (48:23)

Sean (48:36)

Mmm, it was an idea that I was having because it like we

Jess Kismet (48:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sean (49:03)

Cool idea but that's not what we're doing here. So what are we gonna do? Everyone should build a Passivhaus Cool, not everyone's gonna build a Passivhaus So what are we gonna do? Yeah.

Jess Kismet (49:06)

Yeah, how are going to fix this? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

Sean (49:17)

Yeah.

Yeah. In, New Zealand.

Jess Kismet (49:51)

Yeah.

Sean (49:51)

Like, yeah, it's good

Jess Kismet (49:52)

Yeah.

Sean (49:52)

Jess Kismet (50:00)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's why you don't do that. Now I know.

Sean (50:21)

but have built in the past are generally quite large. So they say, we'll just get it wrapped. And it's like, yeah, but it's 550 square meters of home. You just don't just get it wrapped. Like, yeah.

Jess Kismet (50:24)

Yep. Yeah.

⁓ wow. Yep.

Sean (50:35)

Yeah, that's a lot of house.

Jess Kismet

That's a lot of home.

Jess Kismet (50:39)

So what study have you undertaken, Sean, in your quest for better building?

Sean

I guess formally Passivhaus like the Passivhaus Trades person course. That was really cool.

Jess Kismet

yeah.

Sean

But having done a lot of Joe Lstiburek's lectures, and then I had a lot of nuanced questions that they would not give me the answer to, because I wanted to operate in not Passivhaus territory. I'm like, oh yes, but I'm out in the weeds and I've got this thing going on and they're like, oh yes, that's not Passivhaus, so we're gonna talk about that. I was like, oh okay, that's not that helpful. Yeah, well they'd say, oh I'll just be able to have Passivhaus, like yeah, cool, got ya.

Jess Kismet

Yes.

Sean)

So that I did the HIA Green Smart thing quite a while ago That's pretty good a couple steps down from the Passivhaus one For me when I'm looking for like a good course, it's got to be like Get right into it. Tell me what them are doing. I Don't know why I don't know why I just get so fixated on that stuff.

Jess Kismet

80.

Sean

So the next one that I'm doing is Joe Lstiburek's Building Science Fundamentals course. that one is going to be A1. There is a um

Christine Williamson. has a... Yeah, so she has a course too. I'll probably do that one as well. Because that like she's got great great content. Hopefully she gets back on the gram soon. ⁓

Jess Kismet

his daughter you know that right yeah yeah yeah yeah nice

She

is. She was on the, she's on the, she's back. She had triplets.

Sean

That is crazy. Fair enough. Yeah.

Jess Kismet

She had triplets and she just disappeared. That's why she disappeared. I know she just disappeared from the internet. And then it's like, this

is why I disappeared from the internet and there's three babies. And I'm like, whoa.

Sean

⁓ wow. Yeah, her and

Asiri Designs. They've got, he's got a really great Instagram page. Yeah. But the Joe stuff. Yeah, Asiri, Joe, Christine Williamson.

Jess Kismet

Yeah, he's next level. Really, really good. ⁓ Yeah, awesome. So Asiri, Joe, Christine.

So that's what's next for you. And you've already done, that's so exciting. And you've already done HIA Greensmart and you've already done the Passive House Tradesman's course. And all of this is off your own back.

Sean

That's what's next for me. Boy done.

Yeah, and then I've done, ⁓

yes, I've probably done a couple hundred hours in the YouTube, if that counts for anything. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Kismet

I should! This should be a YouTube's degree, I swear! They really should. It's

not fair that we can learn all this stuff on YouTube and not get credit for it.

Sean

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, it's good. I'm really looking forward to the Joe Lstiburek's one though. think that is gonna be like, yeah, they're really gonna get into the weeds on that. Cause you've done that one, is that correct? You've done that one.

Jess Kismet

I did, I did

do it. 4.30 AM starts here in Australia. You might get half an hour grace. Maybe it's 5 AM for you. I'm not sure. But yeah, it was really good. It was really good and amusing. He's an amusing character. and he's he'll stop for questions as well, which is really good. He doesn't just talk. He's open to communicating with all of the all of the attendees as you go. So, yeah, it's it's pretty well run.

Sean

Love it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep.

Jess Kismet

⁓ I struggled with the translation between American terminology and Australian terminology and American like building, like the way their standard builds are compared to us. ⁓ And I guess it's not all that different, but they do things like external insulation and they have all these different boards they put on the outside for their frames and they do different types of roofs. And yeah, so matching up.

Sean

Mmm.

Jess Kismet

matching up America to Australia, I just had to take a minute to wrap my head around that. But the content itself, because all the building science principles apply across the board. So yeah, I found it really good.

Sean

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, yeah, that's the funny thing is like when people are ⁓ we're not building in Antarctica, Sean, you're like, yeah, well, so it's the same here as is there, mate like There's still like, there's still the fundamentals we've got to address.

Jess Kismet

Yeah, I know.

I know heat, air and moisture are everywhere guys.

Sean

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then, so when you did his course, was it like mostly designers and consultants and stuff? Or was there trades people in there or?

Jess Kismet

reckon it was mostly builders in there. Yeah, I reckon it was. Yeah. I reckon how many people would there have been...

Sean

Wow, really.

Jess Kismet

30 odd people I reckon, maybe more. But there's always one guy constantly asking questions. That's probably going to be you.

Sean

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that'd be me. Like, all right, shut up Australia and have a question from

Australia. Thank you.

Jess Kismet

But yeah, you'll love it. It was a great course.

Sean

Yeah, no, I'm really looking forward to it. It's gonna be

Jess Kismet (50:35)

All right, so on. Well, I think that is the end of our chat. We'll wrap it up there. Thank you so much for joining me. really, really appreciate your time.

Sean (56:02)

No thank you for having me, it's been great.