#13 - Passivhaus, Performance & the Power of Building Science with Hamish White and Matthew Carland

Jess Kismet (00:00)

Hello and welcome to the Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. My name is Jess Kismet and I am your host. And today on the podcast, we are joined by two legends of high performance building in Australia. Hamish White of Sanctum Homes and Matt Carland of Carland Construction. Hamish runs Sanctum Homes in Melbourne, known for building healthy, sustainable homes with serious attention to detail. And Matt is a Passivhaus builder also based in Melbourne who just builds better.

Together, these two offer a powerful blend of theory, practice, and design and delivery. In today's episode, we're gonna dive into what it really takes to build better, the challenges, the mindset shifts, and the practical steps to raise the standard of construction across Australia. Let's begin. Welcome gentlemen.

Matthew (00:44)

Yo.

Hamish (00:46)

I just missed all of that Jess. I missed, I just missed, can you just repeat? I'm joking, I'm joking.

Matthew (00:47)

Thank

Jess Kismet (00:50)

What?

Matthew (00:51)

Are you saying that I don't have attention to detail too? In your intro...

Jess Kismet (00:56)

Do I stress me out?

Matthew (00:57)

We told you getting

us to on the podcast is going to be chaos.

Jess Kismet (01:02)

I welcome the chaos.

Hamish (01:03)

Hey, Jess,

thank you. Thank you for having us. This is a bit different for me and Matt, because we're used to being on the other side of the microphone, so to speak, and being the interviewees. Is that how... Or fixing? Thanks for having us, Jess.

Matthew (01:09)

Yeah or fixing everyone else's microphones. It was nice that we didn't have to do that ourselves once. So that's Jess's problem.

Jess Kismet (01:25)

Yes, you're very welcome. Thanks for joining me. I'm interviewing the interviewers today, which is great.

Matthew (01:34)

So no pressure.

Jess Kismet (01:36)

Oh, we'll breeze through this. But speaking of interviewing the interviewers, the episode of your podcast, The Mindful Builders was released today. The one that I was on was released this morning. I know I know. So if you want to hear me talk on the Mindful Builder Podcast go to their show on wherever you listen to your podcasts and look up what was it called?

Matthew (01:48)

I know just by chance as well actually.

Hamish (01:49)

Yes.  Yes.

Matthew (02:02)

the mind for Buildup. Just, yeah. I don't know. I can't actually remember what the episode title is, but I'll be honest, we weren't too happy with the recording, the way it came out. So we are gonna get you on properly again to get the audio back together.

Hamish (02:03)

⁓ The Mindful Builder.

Jess Kismet (02:04)

No, no, no, the episode.

Hamish (02:16)

Just

just just just for context the content was awesome but we weren't amazingly thrilled with the audio for some reason and because Matt and I are classic failing forward kind of people we reckon we can do better but the content's awesome ⁓ I don't know what the the title of the episode was but we're talking about mould and just a healthy building like the whole mould and healthy building

Matthew (02:22)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (02:41)

Yeah, it's all about mould.

Yeah, yeah. 12th of May is the date today of recording this episode. So if you go back to the 12th of May on the Mindful Builder Podcast you'll find the episode where we are talking together. So anyway, we digress. I got you guys on because you guys are, you come up all the time when I talk to builders who are on the sort of Instagram.

learning journey, you guys put so much content out there and people are constantly referring to your Instagram pages as to where they get their information from. So you guys are really forward facing in this part of the industry in educating everyone else and spreading really good information. So I wanted to get you on to have a chat and talk about some of your pain points, I guess, and what you're learning as you're going.

So my first question.

Matthew (03:39)

Can

I start with Thanks for the kind words too, because I know that we do both put a fair bit of effort into it. ⁓ And we do really appreciate when people reach out and say they've learned a lot. it does mean something to both of us too. ⁓ I know we both really hold ourselves to high standards and getting that positive feedback is always quite nice.

Jess Kismet (04:00)

Yeah, yeah, you guys do a fantastic job.

Hamish (04:01)

It's

also nice to know that you're not sort of shouting down, you know, like a void that no one's listening into. So it is nice to hear that.

Matthew (04:11)

Sometimes it feels like that.

Jess Kismet (04:15)

That's definitely not the case. You guys are having an impact. So well done. ⁓ So I'm just going to start. I'm just going to dig right into it. What is the most frustrating thing you've seen in residential construction? Go.

Hamish (04:28)

Matt, you start off first, because then whatever I say afterwards is not good.

Matthew (04:31)

I thought you were saying I'm the most frustrating part about Resident Evil 4. I was like,

Jess Kismet (04:35)

what I thought you meant to.

Matthew (04:36)

fuck you. was like, Jess, do want to be my co-host? ⁓

Hamish (04:42)

I always, what I

was going to say is Matt, you go first. Cause then whatever I say afterwards, I'm not going to get into trouble for saying. So you go first.

Matthew (04:49)

All right, I'm

Jess Kismet (04:50)

You

Matthew (04:50)

gonna go just, but it's actually gonna follow on a little bit from where you've just said that we put so much content out there these days. What frustrates me the most is the information is already out there. The answers are out there. ⁓ The how to do it is out there. The mistakes that cost Hamish and I probably hundreds of thousands of dollars across the years is out there and people still choose not to.

Do it or question why it's necessary. They've seen the failures, we can look across the world of all the problems. And then they continually choose to just turn a blind eye. That's what frustrates me the most.

Jess Kismet (05:27)

Mm-hmm. I get that.

Hamish (05:27)

And I'm going to add to that

because it was actually almost the first thing that popped to my mind. The other thing that I find really frustrating is that building physics is building physics. You can't choose to believe it or not believe it because building physics is a proven science. So we see people do things in the industry like foil-backed insulation for sisalation for example. It's not breathable.

water vapour's gonna hit the back of that. It's documented that that causes ⁓ mould and structure degradation and yet people still think that they can get away with it. And can I say ******** on this? ******** still sells it.

Jess Kismet (06:13)

Yeah,

I know and I actually

Matthew (06:15)

But it's got holes in it though, like come on, it's got all these holes

poached in it, so that's letting it breathe.

Hamish (06:20)

⁓ sorry, breathable one. That's right. The breathable one.

Jess Kismet (06:25)

I actually had a little personal exchange with their marketing person or their Instagram person a while back about this. they, you know, they sort of just said, well, we cater to different climate zones and blah, blah, blah, which is fine. Of course they do. And you can use foil backed products or foil products in sheds or in certain things, in certain applications. And it's not a problem. But the biggest problem with ⁓ certain chains

is that ⁓ they don't put the effort into educating the purchaser. They just throw their hands off and go, well, you guys figure it out. don't have, look, I suggested put a climate zone map next to these products and in this climate zone, can't use this. It's pretty easy to do something like that and it wouldn't cost much.

Matthew (07:07)

there?

But anyway, I think at the same time, it's like, like, I don't think you need to take it out because ******** do provide a lot of the building materials for Australia. And there are some good stuff, stuff you can get there. ⁓ So I think at the same time, it's just about pure education to increase the market. And again, yeah, they do need a cater for everyone. ⁓ That's the reality. It's just, yeah, like they should be able to sell it for a shed totally.

Jess Kismet (07:35)

Mm. Mm.

Matthew (07:42)

Not that I'd use my shed out of it, build my shed out of it.

Jess Kismet (07:45)

Yeah, yeah, I know. And sheds are made out of steel, which has its own inherent issues. But anyway, ⁓ so frustrating thing. So for you, Matt, it is that the information is out there and people are either not aware of how to find it or deliberately not accessing it.

Matthew (08:03)

Yeah, I hate people that don't upskill. Like it is one of my big pet hates. If you stop learning, like it is something that's been drilled into me as a kid. Like you just could continually learn and you should learn something every day. But the people who just like, for example, in our industry, Hame, where you just get your license and then stop and that's all we've done all your learning. Like that's just bullshit. I'm like, yeah.

Jess Kismet (08:07)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, I know the fact that there's no CPD

for builders is ridiculous when the code changes every five seconds every few years.

Matthew (08:30)

It is changing. I think my other frustration comes

from a political point of view, where it's politics. Like this is all it is. It's politicians playing with people's lives. They know the answers. They know what they need to do, but unfortunately we have such short-term governments that, well fortunately and unfortunately, but there's no progressive change to actually push this because it's all about getting that next vote. Again, we have the answers.

Jess Kismet (08:54)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And for you, Hamish, it's the fact that we have these known science, we have, know, the fact that ⁓ heat, air, and moisture is gonna impact your building, whether you know it or not, and that there's research out there that proves these things, but people are still choosing to ignore that because it's just what they've always done. That's your biggest frustration. Is that accurate?

Hamish (09:19)

⁓

Yeah, and I think he's right. It's just, I guess, going further from what Matt was saying, that the information's there. The information's there and there's no arguing about it.

Jess Kismet (09:28)

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they're two very interlinked, interlinked bugbears. And also, you know, for people like yourselves who are who know this stuff back to front, it's it, I can totally understand why that is so frustrating. Myself, I'm in the same boat. But that is why I am doing this podcast, because when you know better, you can do better. And there are plenty of people who just don't don't know, and they don't have easily digestible resources. So

Thank you guys for coming on. Thank you for everything that you do in the Instagram and education space and your own Mindful Builder Podcast And we're all working together to try and this information as far and wide as we possibly can. And let's preaching to the choir.

Matthew (10:11)

think we're learning too. That's

the thing. think like we don't know everything. I think that's the most important part. We actually, and I'll speak on Hames behalf here too, and even yourself Jess, we're still learning. We make mistakes every single day. We get things wrong. We try things to do it. I think that's the main thing we also need to take out of it. ⁓ Yeah, like you don't.

Jess Kismet (10:16)

Mm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Matthew (10:36)

I think we spoke about the other day, Hame or maybe I spoke it to one of my apprentices, one of my apprentices, like until you can explain something clearly to someone else, that's when you know something. ⁓ So yeah, we learn stuff over it. Like I constantly watch stuff to learn.

Jess Kismet (10:52)

Mmm, absolutely.

Hamish (10:53)

I think just, and just

further to add to that, I know like our intention to start a podcast in the first place was probably a little bit of an Instagram joke that you put out on a poll one day that kind of got a bit of traction and then we decided to do it. But I think as the podcast has evolved and we've actually got a bit of traction and it's something that's going to stick around for a while. We're starting to get people on that we can learn from. Like if we want to know something, we're going to get the expert to come on to tell it, to talk to us about it.

Matthew (11:04)

you

Hamish (11:21)

I mean, Cam is one of the examples of who I love listening to. Like I love listening back to the podcast that we record with Cam, because I'm always learning something. And there's one coming out in the next few weeks where I'm just sitting there just asking questions because I want us to know the answer for it purely from a selfish point of view. So I could get better knowing that our listeners were going to get something out of it as well.

Jess Kismet (11:43)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm,

mm-hmm.

Hamish (11:49)

Yep, 100%.

Jess Kismet (11:49)

⁓

Yeah, I agree. I'm learning so much through doing this podcast as well through every single guest I've had on and making connections and building those stronger relationships in the industry as well. And that whole collaboration piece, you know, it's ⁓ just beneficial around.

What are the biggest myths or bits of bad advice still floating around in the industry?

Hamish (12:13)

I live in Queensland, so Passivhaus is not going to work in my climate.

Jess Kismet (12:18)

Yeah, yeah, that's, is that is that what people get advised? Or is that just a consumer misconception?

Hamish (12:25)

I think it's just some people's some people.

Matthew (12:26)

Queenslanders are always a bit slow,

aren't they? They're always a bit behind time.

Jess Kismet (12:30)

You

Hamish (12:31)

I reckon we leave that one in. Let's leave that bit in, ⁓ Yeah, I think it just, you again, I'm preaching to the converted here when I'm talking about this, but building physics is building physics. You can't debate that. And I think I get really frustrated when I hear people say, ⁓ it doesn't quite work in our climate, which is why I don't do it up here.

Jess Kismet (12:34)

Hahaha

Matthew (12:35)

I'm the one that said it.

Hamish (13:01)

or that doesn't matter here because we just open up the doors and we let that cross ventilation through. I'm like, yeah, sure, you can do that, but it's still not managing the humidity inside.

Jess Kismet (13:01)

Mm.

Nah, my sister just moved to Thailand. She's been there about a year. And a few months ago, she sent me pictures of their clothing and it's just covered. It's just covered in mould. ⁓ And there's mould tracing all up their walls. And they had, I think they had a water leak under their bath as well. So there's this high relative humidity in the air. There's a water leak in their bathroom. And they had to throw a whole heap of clothing out. They just couldn't wear it anymore. And...

heat, air and moisture creates that problem. It's everywhere, regardless of where you are in the world.

Matthew (13:46)

Yeah, I think my pet hate is... It's this building principles crap. Or Passivhaus principles. I think that...

Jess Kismet (13:55)

Hmm.

Matthew (13:56)

It's not a passive housing, Passivhaus didn't invent it. Passivhaus has an amazing job at championing it and making people aware of it. But it's not like you can pick and choose which one you want. Like it's not like, oh, build airtight, but I'm not gonna have mechanical ventilation. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions that we currently face as an industry where people wanna pick and choose. Like it's like they go on a subway and just picking out, I want lettuce and tomato, but no carrot on my sandwich. It's still gonna be fine. Like it doesn't work like that.

Jess Kismet (14:22)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (14:25)

I think that's the kickback we get where it goes like to Hamish, what he just said about the, well, it doesn't apply in Queensland, like it still applies. Like it's all like, again, it's physics, you can't change it.

Jess Kismet (14:33)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Hamish (14:37)

Well, mean, if you think

about, if you think about the things that we're trying to control down here, well, what, I mean, let's just use Passivhaus we all, three of us understand what Passivhaus is. Like the whole idea of Passivhaus is gaining control of that internal and air and like environment. It's fresh filtered air. It's maintaining a, you know, a comfortable temperature band and it's managing humidity. You're still doing the same things, whether you're in.

Antarctica or in Thailand, it's still this you're still managing that in the area environment that the things that you're concerned about or trying to manage are a little bit different, but the physics stays the same.

Matthew (15:05)

Yeah. ⁓

just in a different way.

Jess Kismet (15:18)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.

Matthew (15:19)

Yeah,

the whole principle is, oh, that doesn't apply to me. Like, it's that attitude. Like, oh, yeah, that's the problem. It's like, you're magically exempt from the way that buildings are built.

Jess Kismet (15:24)

Mm.

Yeah, it's just...

Yeah, yeah, it's just that whole you don't know what you don't know thing and people don't really like to admit. They don't like to admit that they don't know. They like to think that they understand and, you know, they have to be willing to learn.

Matthew (15:35)

Which is okay though. That's okay.

Jess Kismet (15:47)

So that's the challenge. That's the challenge. actually, moving on from that question, so in terms of ⁓ how you teach your own clients, ⁓ how do you get past that notion of people who think just throwing in double glazing into a home is gonna be enough to make it energy efficient or sustainable? How do you approach the education piece in your own businesses?

Hamish (15:47)

Totally.

So I guess I'll, I'm going to respond to that by saying, actually don't have that problem now because well, I mean, we've been doing it for a number of years now I guess we put a lot of information out one through the podcast through social media, but also the stuff is sustainable bills Alliance. But if I think about, um, like the comment about, I'm going to build this sustainable home. I'll put double glazing in that right there is just not.

Matthew (16:18)

Yeah.

Hamish (16:39)

That's just lack of education. don't necessarily think it's the people. I don't think they're saying it as a throwaway comment. think that that's what they've been told works for so long. And I think for me is I try to talk about the home is like a whole ecosystem. It's not just your windows, it's everything. And I think this is why I fell in love with Passivhaus so easily and quickly back in the day, because it wrapped things up in a nice by really

Jess Kismet (16:52)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hamish (17:08)

easily. And I'm not saying you couldn't get there from different ways of building a home, but it just wraps it up so nicely. So when people come to me and said, we'll just throw some double glazing in, I said, okay, well, let me direct you to this podcast or to this webinar we did for Sustainable Buiders Alliance. I'll go and check out Matt's Instagram account. For me, it's just all about education.

Jess Kismet (17:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. So you just kind of direct them to various resources, like, like not do you direct them to people or do you direct them to like, you know, like a technical resource? How do you encourage the learning?

Matthew (17:40)

Yeah.

My go-to for anyone,

Hamish (17:49)

Well, it

Matthew (17:50)

My go-to for anyone, and I think this is the best bit of information you can possibly find out there is the Building Science 101 by the Build Show. By far the best, free resource that I will send anyone, any client, anyone that's like, I learn more, start there. But there is nothing better than that. know each episode is 25 minutes. I think there's 10 of them. You will gain so much knowledge just within that.

Jess Kismet (18:00)

You're okay.

Right, I did not even know that existed. So I'll find that and link it in the show notes.

Hamish (18:17)

I that's

an amazing resource. We can also direct them to the Mindful Builder Podcast

Jess Kismet (18:23)

Thank

Matthew (18:25)

Yeah, yeah, totally. And there's a number of things that depends on like, when you talk about these things and whether like, so again, and I shouldn't say lucky, because we're both Hame and I put a lot of effort into portraying a message and marketing ourselves to a certain environment. When people say, you're lucky, you get those clients. It's like, well, we also had to scramble around for work at some point, we also had to change a whole business structure. So we've also worked at it, but it's communication and negotiation, you've got to be able to like,

Jess Kismet (18:26)

Yeah, duh.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Matthew (18:53)

understand how to talk to about clients like don't talk about Passivhaus I talk about comfort optimization ⁓ health talk about these things because people can relate to them and It's the common one I kind of get out is and I spoke about this last Friday to about 120 architects when we're talking and then they were wanting to know

Like, I can't convince some people to use some like, we can't convince people to use the wrap. So we can't convince them to air tightness. And it's as simple as you just walk them through every single one. So you stop for a minute, you break it down. And it's as simple as like, hey, do you like leaking roofs? No, I don't like water inside. Okay, cool. So we both agree we need a good wrap. Can we just start there? And like, let's agree on that. Okay, cool. Do you like drafts? no, I don't want a draft in building. Cool. All right, so.

we can agree with their build somewhat airtight. And it's like, yeah, okay, we want to build somewhat airtight. All right, cause you want to be firmly comfortable inside so we need insulation. And the concept of insulation is pretty easy for everyone these days. But then when you get to mechanical ventilation, they're like, oh, I think that's a part we can pull out. And it's like, okay, so you do smoke inside.

and they're always like, no, no, I'm like, would you smoke inside? And they're like, no. So like, why wouldn't we have one of these in here? And you've got to break it down and find trigger points for them that they can then relate to. So then when they put like the analogy of smoking inside compared to not having mechanical ventilation, it's like, no, no, I need to have that. So you've got to talk them through step by step. Don't sell them the whole overall package. Don't sell them the kilowatt hours of heating demand or heating load or the PER I don't know. Just don't talk about those things to clients. Just break it down to its absolute basics.

Jess Kismet (20:03)

Mm.

Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm.

You got your milkshake?

Hamish (20:29)

My son just came in

and bought me a milk shake. What a legend. Thanks, Darcy

Jess Kismet (20:33)

⁓ winning. Winning. ⁓

Matthew (20:36)

So I think it's

going back and talking about the absolute, just the simplest parts. Don't overcomplicate it. And maybe for your first one, if you're trying to look into getting to this, just start with the membranes. Start there.

Hamish (20:47)

So I'm just going to like, are one of the really interesting things that you said, ⁓ just before Matt, you said, I really, well, sorry, this is not you speaking, but it's the architect speaking. Like I really trouble. I really have trouble convincing someone to do something. You can just tell them that that's what you do. And there's no compromise. Like it's like, okay, here's my minimum standards as we do as an organisation It's.

Jess Kismet (20:47)

Yeah, so you relate it to the human.

Matthew (20:50)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's another part here.

Hamish (21:17)

It's airtight, it's really great building wraps. We're going to use a HRV. Great, great windows. This is what you get when you come to us. Like that's quite simple to me. asking for, it's not asking, can we do this on your home? It's like, this is our minimum. You will then fit your house out and we'll cloud your house with whatever money you got left over. But this is what we're doing for you as a business. Cause we care about you and your health. Like it's, I don't know for me, that's.

Jess Kismet (21:26)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (21:47)

Can I say something and you can turn your TikTok camera on or whatever you need to do for this one. But I think the reality is that you've got your.

Jess Kismet (21:47)

Yeah,

Matthew (21:55)

You have people, like we work for wealthy clients. If you're building a house that has a $1.5 million budget and you can't incorporate things like this, you as a builder or an architect aren't doing your job. You're actually probably no good at your job if you can't incorporate those things with those budgets. Like, let's be serious. You have a $1.5 million to work with. And when you say, we can't afford it or we can't sneak that in, it's like, no, no, you're actively choosing not to include it. Or you're actively omitting it.

Jess Kismet (22:10)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Do either

of you have any experience when you were young lads in the volume builder space or have you always worked for bespoke builders?

Matthew (22:29)

I worked for one day and I couldn't do it.

Jess Kismet (22:32)

Okay. How about you, Hame All custom. Okay. All right. So I want to ask you both, pardon?

Hamish (22:33)

No, it's all custom, all custom, all custom.

Matthew (22:36)

Yeah.

What's your question?

What's your question around the volume builder?

Jess Kismet (22:45)

Well, I just wanted to know if either of you had actually worked in that space and what your experience was. You guys both work for wealthy clients and that's all great. And you're saying, switch out your more expensive finishes so you can incorporate these really essential things into your home to make sure it's durable over the long term. But the question, because not everyone who's listening to this is going to have a $1.5 million budget.

So I was curious to know if you had any experience in that volume build space with the resistance that is faced there, because that's really where the biggest problem is in terms of conversion.

Matthew (23:25)

Yeah,

Hamish (23:25)

Can I? I?

Matthew (23:27)

go Hame you go Hame

Hamish (23:28)

Oh, no, I was just going to say, and this is probably, you know, cause I'm always the glass half full person. What's really exciting in my eyes is the fact that, uh, the other organisation I'm a part of Sustainable Builders Alliance cheeky, cheeky name drop. They also do a podcast called Sustainable Builders Yak. Yeah. And we actually had Metricon on today. that episode's come out today. We had Metricon on today.

Jess Kismet (23:32)

Ahem.

I heard that. ⁓ was it today? I heard it last week.

Matthew (23:55)

I haven't listened to it yet.

I haven't listened to it. I know they want to build better. Like I know they actively, they're trying.

Hamish (23:57)

Yeah, I came over, sorry.

Jess Kismet (23:58)

I heard it last week.

Yeah, and there's another mob in Melbourne who there's a few more that have been actively trying for quite some time. So, sorry, carry on.

Hamish (24:04)

Yep, so.

Matthew (24:12)

I think the thing is when

you go with these volume builder things and the issue is the people who are buying these homes, the most vulnerable, let's just, let's be serious there. They can't afford to, can't afford it. So you need to look at, you need to sell it from a different perspective. So it's things like the membranes, like they're already wrapping externally with something. All right. And what is the highest? Yeah, yeah, true. But like the highest claims or issues I have with their construction is water damage.

Jess Kismet (24:34)

Sometimes.

Matthew (24:42)

So what if they just replace that with the membranes and all of a sudden, yeah, there's a high cost increase straight up front, but now their maintenance is completely lowered because their buildings are actually wrapped correctly. So to me, it's like almost a trade off. Like, yes, can probably charge your clients and with their buying power that they have, they're gonna be able to get it at a price that we can't get at that. So why not?

Jess Kismet (24:54)

Mm.

Mmm.

Matthew (25:06)

to start there. And then it doesn't mean that you also need to have a HRV either. It just means that you can just put in a basic time fan, an inline fan for mechanical ventilation. It's a constant turnover of air within the house. Then you look at things like insulation. It's already being installed, install it properly. That should not cost anymore. ⁓

Jess Kismet (25:08)

Oh, it's 100 % agree

Mm.

Matthew (25:29)

So you start playing with things and like really does this need to become as expensive as we think? I know that the cost in what we build, Hame, is it's the interior finishes and external finishes that blow the budget out. It's not the performance.

Hamish (25:43)

Yeah. I mean, if you look at like, we're talking about like, what's the risk matrix here? Like water kills buildings. We can solve that by making it really nice and airtight. Sorry. Putting a really good building wrap on it. And I think you hit the nail on the head. get the volume builders could do two things better. It's wrapping the building well and ventilating. Well, I don't think you need to go and change all the windows. So they're completely thermal bridge which free and all that kind of stuff. I don't think that's, I don't think that's an issue.

Jess Kismet (26:03)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's simple.

Matthew (26:11)

Yeah,

but Hame, but also a UPVC window compared to an aluminum window isn't that far off on price.

Jess Kismet (26:13)

Ahem.

Hamish (26:17)

I think if

you compare it, I think if you can.

Jess Kismet (26:18)

Yeah, but sometimes these contracts

have won and lost on $500 like they don't have the margins.

Matthew (26:24)

Yeah, but as they buy, as they buy, as they develop more, and there's more uPVC contractors and more uPVC window companies, the price is dramatically going to drop. Look, it happened in Europe and UK.

Hamish (26:24)

Yep.

I think.

Yeah, you're going to see as soon as the big players start and this is what I get really excited about. You know, Metricon coming on to the SBA podcast. They're interested. They want to learn. They've got a thirst for learning. That is three and a half thousand homes last financial year. That's three and a half thousand opportunities to build three and a half thousand better homes throughout Australia. And you start doing that as Australia's biggest builder.

Jess Kismet (26:43)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Hamish (27:00)

And you're to get all the other people going, shit, I better do that too. Cause I've just lost my competitive advantage.

Jess Kismet (27:05)

Absolutely.

Matthew (27:07)

The one

little thing that they could change, and this would cost absolutely nothing, is that when you, as a client, are looking to log on and purchase which house you like, that you can only buy houses based off the orientation of your block to maximize passive solar. So you wanna buy the Hamish house, but that doesn't work to a west face building, you can't use that one. We're actually not gonna let you. These are selections you can have.

Jess Kismet (27:23)

Mmm.

Mm. Yeah.

Matthew (27:33)

I think that's the biggest change I can make and actually

go, you know what, we might lose people on, but be like, hey, we're only letting you for your own sake, as the person who's gonna live in it, we want you to have a better home. And this is what we're gonna do to make you have a better home.

Jess Kismet (27:45)

That's quite an innovative idea. I wonder how that would work in practice.

Hamish (27:46)

But there is.

That's such, you know what? like, I don't know, Matt, you and I've talked about that before, but like for me, there is such an amazing marketing opportunity there to separate yourself from all the other people. Like they just need to start seeing where, yeah, start seeing the opportunities and doing it a different way, and then start marketing the shit out of it. And as soon as those big players start doing it, then we're going to see a natural trickle down of those savings through the custom home.

Jess Kismet (27:57)

Mmm.

Matthew (27:57)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (28:00)

Absolutely.

Matthew (28:01)

We want better because we want better for you.

Jess Kismet (28:10)

Mmm.

Hamish (28:19)

space at the moment because to put a Zehnder in a home at the moment is $25,000 right any day of the week.

Matthew (28:24)

It's not feasible.

Jess Kismet (28:25)

Yeah. For those

who don't know what a Zehnder is, it's a mechanical heat recovery ventilation system that's ducted throughout the whole house.

Hamish (28:33)

Which we use in our climate zone because we want to recover the heat.

Matthew (28:34)

That's the only one I'd ever put in a house.

Jess Kismet (28:38)

Yes, yes. So that's a mechanical ⁓ ventilation ⁓ option where you have an airtight structure and you ⁓ aren't relying solely on your windows and doors opening to get ventilation through. It's a mechanical solution.

Matthew (28:39)

Yeah.

Doesn't

even need to be airtight though. Like this is the other thing, Mick, I think the misconception of how airtight we need to get to put these things in. Every home needs mechanical ventilation. That's one thing that Cam's taught me on our podcast. Like no, every house needs something like this.

Jess Kismet (29:00)

Yeah. Yeah. huh.

You're actually right. Yeah.

Hamish (29:06)

And I know we're digressing.

I know we're digressing just slightly here, but like, I know I dropped the figure of $25,000 just before, right? But how much is a ducted central heating and cooling system going to cost in a home? How much is it going to About the same. Okay. Probably, probably more, right? It's going to use more energy to heat and All right. Let's design the house better. Let's orientate the home well.

Jess Kismet (29:19)

Air conditioning. Yeah, about the same, right?

Matthew (29:22)

No,

I actually don't ⁓ know

Jess Kismet (29:28)

Yeah.

Mm.

Hamish (29:36)

I'm not even saying make your walls 140 mm because I don't think you have to. Not in every single climate, but wrap it well, orientate it well. You're going to use less heating and cooling. So that money that you're investing in your centralised ventilation system can take the place of your centralised ducted system. Yes, you're going to need to put in a couple of strategically placed split systems. The net result is you're covering ventilation, heating and cooling in

Jess Kismet (29:42)

Mm.

Hamish (30:06)

$30,000 to $35,000. You're not paying much more. You're getting a more comfortable and more healthy home to live in. And you're going to save money over time because you're running costs of the home to lower. So anyway, ⁓ Metricon, can take that little snippet to market to your consumers.

Jess Kismet (30:17)

100%.

Matthew (30:22)

Yeah, you can pay Hamish and I

to come on and do some, we'll do some advisory to how to change the model and consulting, there you go.

Hamish (30:26)

consulting.

Jess Kismet (30:29)

I was

so impressed when I saw the name Metricon pop up on that, I subscribed to the Sustainable Builders Yak as well. And I was so impressed when I saw that come up because as I was listening to it as well, was even more impressed because Metricon actually reached out to you guys. They wanted to come on the podcast to actually promote the fact that they are learning. And we talked about

or the simple things they could do would be to upskill, not upskill, just upgrade their wraps and do some better extraction in their wet areas. But that is, both of those things are over and above building code. So as a volume builder, they only have to meet minimum code. So for Metricon to be looking outside of that and trying to learn over and above the building code is so positive, it's such a positive thing.

Hamish (31:23)

Yeah, I mean,

unless they also know something that we don't know and the code's going to change and they're going to have to do it at some point, which is the reality as well.

Jess Kismet (31:32)

Well, yeah, I mean down where I am the codes been paused for 10 years. Yeah, so we got we got a little while to wait but

Matthew (31:33)

Yeah, not in South Australia.

That you go back to the most

Hamish (31:40)

⁓ yes

Matthew (31:41)

frustrating,

Hamish (31:41)

sir.

Matthew (31:41)

the question you asked at the start, the most frustrating thing like fuck me, that is one of the dumbest things that I have heard. And look, there's been some pretty dumb things that have come out of politicians' mouths in Victoria, but I think that one takes the cake.

Jess Kismet (31:52)

Oh, sorry. I mean, I understand from the perspective of someone who doesn't understand all the bits and pieces that we understand, I can see why. But it's just, it's just, there's a longer game here that they don't, that isn't being played. Unfortunately. Anyway, onto something a little more positive. What projects have you both undertaken that

pushed you technically or creatively and what did you learn?

Matthew (32:25)

Working with my wife.

Jess Kismet (32:27)

It's

always a challenge.

Matthew (32:32)

No, that's if

Nicole's listening that's definitely not the case. I love her dearly Hame you can go first, because I've got one. And I think I know your answer too for this one. We might have gone the same path.

Hamish (32:43)

Yeah, yeah.

I reckon I reckon I know Matt's I mean, mine's to hand down the certified hempcrete Passivhaus we did.

Jess Kismet (32:50)

Yeah, I thought you were going to say that too.

Hamish (32:53)

I mean, no, no, like we, we didn't have a reference point. were kind of making up, not making up details, but kind of workshopping details with, ⁓ with the design team to try and figure out how we're going to make it airtight. I mean, and the great thing is we've got it certified, but the really positive thing for me is that we've now learned how to do it better because there are so many things that we did on that job that I wouldn't do again. But now I know what to do in the next one. And it's funny, I had a meeting with, ⁓

Matthew (32:53)

Yeah, mind, yeah. Go.

Jess Kismet (33:16)

Mm-hmm.

Can you give us an example?

Hamish (33:21)

⁓ yeah, I wouldn't install my windows before, ⁓ building the hemp. I'd do it afterwards because there's much easier ways to detail that air tightness details. We over complicated the shit out of it and we still didn't, and we still didn't, and then we still didn't nail it. Like we, we, as I said, we got it airtight like it's 0.58. ⁓ which I tell you what, that is the proudest.

Jess Kismet (33:36)

You

Hamish (33:49)

uh, blower door test I've ever done. And we've got much more flow results on that. At that point, five, eight, I remember seeing it. I started crying. I asked Drew. It's that with, yeah.

Jess Kismet (33:52)

Mm-hmm.

I remember your talk at the Passivhaus Conference a year or two ago. You were up on that stage talking about it, getting a bit shaky. The trauma was coming back.

Hamish (34:06)

Yeah, was,

yeah, there was a bit of trauma there, know, that pushed us. It puts us in a really positive way because it sort of gave me the confidence, one, we backed ourselves and two, it's just given me the confidence to know that we can figure stuff out if we need to. I reckon I know that.

Matthew (34:28)

Mine is very similar, is that we converted a volume builder house built in 1993 into a certified EnerPHit Passivhaus. Hasn't been done. So it's the things that haven't been done that you're trying different things that you literally putting your balls on the line to work it out. Like they're the hard ones. Building a brand new Passivhaus is simple. As a builder, you can't build a brand new, yeah.

Jess Kismet (34:36)

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Hamish (34:50)

Or

respective genitalia, Matt. Let's be inclusive. Let's be inclusive here, Matt.

Matthew (34:55)

Yeah, yes. I think it's a sweet

Jess Kismet (34:56)

you're so politically correct, Hamish.

Matthew (35:01)

slend over here. Where the,

it's the, yeah, it's those ones. Like if you're a builder and you consider yourself a good builder and you get presented with a Passivhaus project as a new build, simple. Like honestly.

Hamish (35:13)

I can send

it. Just go for it.

Matthew (35:14)

Like literally it's

like seriously, if you can't get that ticked off, you probably shouldn't be doing your job. But when you're doing something that hasn't been done and if you want to do a retrofit or a renovation or something like that, or work with a new material or work with something that's completely out of this world. Yeah, I can tell you the sleepless nights and it requires a huge amount of trust and collaboration and transparency across the project from everyone. it's, yeah.

Jess Kismet (35:40)

Yeah, yeah. Have you got, have you done

a case study on that one? Have you got any content we can look at?

Matthew (35:45)

I'm

holding it close to my chest quite now. I don't know where I wanna talk about it yet. ⁓ We will do a platform on it. At some point I will write a big keynote on it. I've got a lot of information ⁓ where I present that at. Yeah, it is, yeah.

Jess Kismet (35:49)

Okay.

Because that would be fascinating. mean, upgrading

the existing housing stock is a huge opportunity. And there are people who are interested in the EnerPHit So EnerPHit for the listener who doesn't know what that is. EnerPHit is a certified Passivhaus. It's a Passivhaus certification for an existing building that is upgraded to the Passivhaus level. There are a few concessions for EnerPHit ⁓ simply because you're dealing with an existing structure. ⁓ But it is a

Matthew (36:05)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (36:26)

another Passivhaus certification.

Matthew (36:28)

Yeah, and we got that under, what are you, that 0.4, that air tightness test, went from 35. yeah, there's about 35 maxed out. It maxed out, we couldn't actually get a reading on it. It had to do its calibration thing on the thing where it kind of worked out what it might be. The blower door on its open fan, the largest fan, couldn't get anything. It was pretty, yeah, was a big change.

Jess Kismet (36:33)

Yeah, wow. Did you test it before you did any work on it?

35? No it wasn't.

35 air changes.

⁓ my goodness. Alright, alright. So I-

That's hectic and that's in Victoria. So that house would have been freezing in winter.

Matthew (36:58)

Yeah, yeah, in Williamstown.

Yeah, yeah, it was,

yeah, yeah. So, ⁓ yeah, it was not the greatest. But the thing is like, again, we've done it. It's like, pretty cool to achieve that. I'm pretty proud of what the team and even though as a builder, like I relied on people like Hamish as well to ask questions. And those around me, like it wasn't just it's a collaborative effort on the wider front to clients are amazing. The whole design team were amazing.

But like we're looking at one at the moment that's not going to go for certification, but it's a double, we're now looking at the same thing, but double brick. And now that just throws a whole complicate. And that's just like throwing a whole not the can of worms at the whole project. And it's like, now what? So you kind of, you work through stage by stage. And I think even though that won't be certified, I think that's going to be even harder again. Even knowing what we know and the mistakes we've made on the last one. ⁓

Jess Kismet (37:38)

⁓ wow.

you

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Matthew (37:54)

But yeah, again, it's just having to think through it. So again, we go back to the start, it's all about upskilling, it's about learning and reading up on things to understand what will and what won't work.

Jess Kismet (38:04)

Yep, yep.

Hamish (38:04)

We're going to project

a moment once we're working through Cam that's a double brick Matt And it is interesting. It'll never get to certification, but it's just understanding the changes that you do make to a building and the impact that it actually has on the physics of the building. Because you can go, yeah, well, I'll just jam some insulation in between the brick cavity. But what are you actually doing to the building physics? Like, where's the moisture going? What's the insulation you're putting in there? You know that...

Matthew (38:16)

much.

Jess Kismet (38:23)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (38:31)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (38:31)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hamish (38:33)

You know that it's going to get wet because bricks are porous. So, you know, all these things that are pushing you intellectually, like as Matt said, take, take by the horns and just like wrestle it to the ground because you'll learn something from that exercise that you're going to take into the next project.

Jess Kismet (38:36)

Yes.

Matthew (38:51)

What are you doing? You're out of interest. Cause I haven't had it. haven't had it. You haven't got Cam involved in the project yet. ⁓ But I've got in my head what I want to do.

Jess Kismet (38:51)

Yeah.

So

for those of you listening who don't know who Cam is, can somebody please explain?

Hamish (39:04)

Dr. Evil. He's a NASA space scientist. No, he's not. Cam works for a company called Passive Analytics It's his own company. He does similar things to you. Jess WUFI analysis. does a lot of ⁓ our modeling. Quite possibly the smartest human being that I know. Yeah.

Matthew (39:04)

He's a rocket scientist.

Jess Kismet (39:12)

you

Matthew (39:25)

Traffic management too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah. Well, what are you doing, Kent? What are you doing, Hame What are you looking at?

Jess Kismet (39:35)

Alright, good.

Hamish (39:39)

⁓ I don't have all the information in front of me so I don't want to lead people down the line but we're looking at blowing insulation between the bricks but I know that it's... ⁓

Matthew (39:48)

close it's a super fill it's the it's the

waxy coating one it's it yeah canal super fill yeah

Hamish (39:53)

Yeah, it's hydrophobic, so

it doesn't ⁓ grab moisture and then kind of bunch up and turn to shit.

Matthew (39:58)

Yeah.

Yeah, cool. Yeah, and I was doing this, what I was also thinking is, again, don't take this for gospel anyone, because this might not work as well. Would 60 mm wood fiber outside and then cavity battens on the inside and insulate the cavity there. I just want to see how that performs against the WUFI analysis.

Jess Kismet (40:16)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. This wood fiber stuff.

Hamish (40:17)

Well,

interesting thing for us, though, Matt, is that the clients wanted to keep the aesthetic because it's an old Alistair Knox building. So we wanted to express the bricks on both sides.

Matthew (40:30)

Yeah, so I don't have that. Yeah, so for me, I don't have that. They don't want to see either. So I'm kind of lucky. But have fun.

Hamish (40:40)

going to be exciting.

Jess Kismet (40:42)

Challenging times coming up, fun times. So your EnerPHit project, Matt, I mean, I know you're not talking about it yet, but can you give us, are you willing to give us a couple of things that you had to do? Like how did you get it from 35 air changes to 0.4? And what was it? Was it a brick veneer? Was it a brick veneer project? Was it a lightweight clad? Like give us a bit of an overview, because that's interesting.

Matthew (40:56)

⁓ So, like information's actually, yeah.

Yeah. So the information's

already all over social media, ⁓ practically. All that results, all that is there. What we were presented with was a house, was a brick veneer house with roof tiles. And we wanted the hypothesis essentially was like, how do we turn this into a Passivhaus? It's a common Australian home without taking off the roof tiles or the external brick cladding. So we just thought through the process and...

Jess Kismet (41:11)

Okay.

Matthew (41:28)

We replaced the windows with it from a single glazed aluminium to a triple glazed UPVC. We ⁓ installed a, we came across some metal sarking. We ripped that out. We installed a R2.5 HD polyester batt due to its hydrophobic nature. So it wasn't going to suck in a whole lot of moisture. had to, Cam had to calculate the vented.

brick cavity air exchange rate to prove there wasn't too much wind washing going on. Like you got real nerdy, but things we just thought through the process of how we would build a house to airtight and deconstruct it. Like the airtightness is easy. Honestly, there's like, feel like there's not much to talk about. it's honestly, we had Intello internally. So we had a complete semi-clear run at it. ⁓

Jess Kismet (41:58)

Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (42:14)

There were challenges with the, we've had massive issues. The reason why, and I'll say it, the reason why I'm not talking too much about it is we're having huge issues with the floor. We used a cork product from Dyson.

as a in-fill concrete, it's like a concrete screen, but it's cork and it's got a pretty good R value. If anyone out there listening don't use it, it's a scam. I'm having huge problems with it. And I'll say that very openly that it's a product being sold at the moment that isn't fit for purpose. And we're now having to work through that not fit for purpose side of things. So that's why I'm a bit reluctant just to talk about it too much. But yeah, there's a lot of issues in that. Look, the clients are amazing, arguably my

Jess Kismet (42:48)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (42:58)

my most favourite clients ever to a point where Sarah turned into my mortgage broker halfway through the build. So that's a little trust on a project we had with each other. So yeah.

Jess Kismet (43:08)

Brilliant. Brilliant.

Hamish (43:09)

I'll just go

on the record as saying you're very welcome, Matt, for me putting you onto those clients too.

Matthew (43:13)

Yeah,

yeah, actually, it's pretty funny. That's actually, yeah, you came did actually put me onto them for another project, which they're no longer building. And this is what they ended up building. ⁓ we actually, Hame I think you're probably my biggest source of projects. And I think I've given you a few recently. Yeah, it's practically like our biggest source of projects is each other where for some reason, when it's close to me, they reach out to Hamish. When it's close to Hamish, they reach out to me. ⁓

Jess Kismet (43:26)

You alright?

Hamish (43:35)

Yes.

And I

just go, Matt, Matt's, Matt's the one you wanted to look. I kind of feel like that that's in a whole little circle of friends, you know, like we all know that if someone's chatting with someone, there's a good chance they're kind of chatting with somebody else. And it's like, look, pick any either of them, put them all, put their names on a wall, throw a dart and then call, call one of them and you'll have a great result.

Jess Kismet (43:44)

You're right.

Matthew (43:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (44:02)

Yep.

Yep. Yep. Definitely.

All right, all right. So for the listener, if you've noticed that one of the guests has gone incognito, it's because his camera has his laptop running out of battery and he needs the port to charge it. So we shall do this. We

Hamish (44:20)

I'm still here, I'm still here people, I'm

Jess Kismet (44:24)

So, Matt, you're building your own certified Passivhaus right now. What has surprised you most about being the client?

Hamish (44:23)

gone.

Matthew (44:30)

Yeah.

Ooh. I don't know if I should say it.

⁓

Jess Kismet (44:43)

We can always edit it out later.

Matthew (44:46)

I spoke to you about it this morning, Hame. The cost of the certification is really expensive. It's a reality, it's a better, and I don't want to say too much because I also don't want to deter people from building a Passivhaus thinking it's too expensive, which reality is a premium product. And it is expensive if you're not chasing gains. Let's just put a caveat over that. And for my project, we didn't have to chase any gains to get the certification.

Jess Kismet (44:52)

Okay, that's cool. You can be honest.

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (45:14)

But the reality certification is a $30,000 exercise. ⁓ That's the reality of it.

Jess Kismet (45:19)

Is that worth,

is that, that, what does that encompass? That's the certifiers fees the consultants fees.

Matthew (45:25)

So yeah, certify, they're gonna

see a consultant's fees, architect's fees, like in that, and like my fees, if I was to like my own house, but the time that we would spend documenting and doing things, the reality is I didn't realise how expensive it is. ⁓ And that's probably the one thing I've learned and it's hard because I don't wanna talk about too much, but also I'm very honest and I wanna make people aware that yeah, it's expensive to build a Passivhaus. Not every house needs to be a Passivhaus. We still need to model it.

Because of the information I feel, I feel somewhat responsible that if I don't tell people the cost and don't be honest about it, we can't have a transparent communication line where people like Hamish and I, can semi control a message in a positive tone where if someone else kind of starts spruiking, it's so expensive, they can, the negative connotation along with it can, can quickly come. So to me, I feel like it's an opportunity to talk about how expensive it is, but why it's worth it. So I feel like that's something that I've, I've really learned. I've learned.

Jess Kismet (46:10)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Matthew (46:21)

Sequencing is the big one, even though like double stories, high performance Passivhaus so it's like sequencing, geez, it's tough. And I thought I've already done one and I thought I nailed it. And again, I didn't. That is probably the one thing I've learned on a project is how important on a double story is to sequence and change things. It is so difficult. So, so, so difficult. Just the construction methods of when and who's gonna come, the payment state.

Jess Kismet (46:40)

sequencing what exactly.

Yeah but,

anything, any part in particular or just all of it.

Matthew (46:51)

It's that once your frames up, getting yourself to a locked up / airtight / insulated structure, roofed, cladded like that section between the frame completion and getting your trades completed for a rough-in, that's the complex part of the building. I don't still have a huge answer and I do things differently again, and I'd probably still make mistakes on it again because it's just such a hard thing to navigate.

Jess Kismet (47:01)

Yeah, okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hamish (47:17)

If I could add, if I

could add anything to that too, and I think what really brings that home, Matt, and regardless of whether it's your house or not, it's getting paid. It's working out like, where do you set your milestone payments when you have, when sequencing is challenging? Like if you had an endless budget, who gives a shit? You know, you just crack on and you keep going. And if you could bill your clients every two weeks or every month, then it doesn't matter. But when you're trying to set, when you're trying to predict

Matthew (47:30)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hamish (47:46)

exactly the sequence of all the little nuances of a Passivhaus or high performance build. Even though I think Matt's excellent at it, I know we're pretty good at it as well, you still can get yourself caught short of a progress claim and you could be financing that project for two to three, four weeks even, if you slightly get that timing of things wrong.

Jess Kismet (48:08)

Mmm.

Matthew (48:10)

And that's $400,000 - $500,000 too. you're looking, so for example, I had trades roughing in, I had roof going on, I had bricks going in, I was insulating, I was doing air tightness all at one point.

Jess Kismet (48:26)

Mm.

Matthew (48:27)

That's three, four stage payments at once trying to work out. I one to complete. that's probably the biggest thing I learned. And the only person that can learn that is people like myself and Hamish communicating. Like a client or an architect can't help me with that. That's people like our little network of builders that we chat to. It's pretty much trying to diminish the...

Jess Kismet (48:30)

Yeah. ⁓

Matthew (48:49)

the effects of something like that and putting it out there and like, what would you do here? And hopefully getting a ⁓ bit of a nugget of gold that might help that you didn't think about. It's just, it is a very hard topic to navigate. I feel like people dance around it and I feel the cost of certification scares so many people off building a Passivhaus, which then high performance gets lumped in the same.

Jess Kismet (49:02)

Mm.

Matthew (49:11)

category is Passivhaus, and it's just all get seemed to be too expensive where I think if we can determine and acknowledge and accept and champion that yeah, Passivhauses are more expensive and certification is more expensive, it might bring more people into the high performance space because they know and they feel comfortable understanding that it's not as expensive. I think that's where I think that there's a narrative to be spoken about ⁓ and how we navigate that topic is quite a difficult one because there's always gonna be people against Passivhaus and...

Jess Kismet (49:29)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (49:41)

I'm a huge advocate of it. That's why I'm building my own house to that standard. But the reality is it costs more, but it's a premium product.

Jess Kismet (49:47)

So you're saying

Hamish (49:47)

I'm going to flip. just going to, I'm

just going to be just for a second. Like I feel, um, certification gives you, uh, verification, like as a client, as a consumer, you're getting what's drawn and what you've contracted on is then verified and you've got that insurance policy that what you're doing or what you're living in or what you're getting for your money is legitimately.

Matthew (50:12)

percent.

Hamish (50:16)

what you set out to achieve and you're not going to get that unless you get it certified. There is, there, yeah, there, there is a however, right? And if you choose to go with a Carland Constructions an Enduro Buidlers a Sanctum Homes and MVH whoever they got runs on the board and you know that they're to build it a certain way. But if you go with a builder who's never done one before, never doesn't know the ins and outs of it.

Matthew (50:22)

So there's a huge caveat on what, yeah.

Jess Kismet (50:38)

Yeah.

Hamish (50:43)

verification, certification is the only way that you're going to get that insurance policy. So I think there is definitely a time and place. I would also like to think though that that plaque is going to be worth something at some point. I really truly hope.

Matthew (50:50)

Yeah, that's a great point, Arise.

Jess Kismet (50:51)

Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Matthew (51:01)

I think it is. You make this awesome point because at the end of the day, Hame, I know if we do a high performance project or a normal project, the documentation's the same.

So for us, the details are the same, the care is the same. Yeah, and I think that it's really important that if you're an architect, and you're doing this for the first, second, third time, yeah, you should be going through a certification for your first two or three, purely just to understand the process. Then you can make a decision, and then at least you can go both ways on the conversation. I can quick so quickly in the same time, we'd be able to jump in on either or on a debate and be just as strong as an argument for and against it. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (51:39)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew (51:40)

think that's the point that you need to get to before you can have that say on a project. Not to say that we've done it all, and we do make mistakes, ⁓ but I think it's both fair to say that we're both experts in that field of building Passivhauses That's probably, yeah, we're able to have that conversation where most can't. So it's very easy for us to sit here on our high blocks and say that.

Jess Kismet (52:01)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Who you choose as the builder is an absolutely crucial part of the decision making process and what you get in the end. you know, Hamish, point that you might mean, Enduro Builders have got, for example, the builder I work for has got three levels of build that they build to. That's it. You've got ⁓ energy efficient, high performance certified Passivhaus. And there is a list of things that goes on in those three levels. You don't have to build a certified Passivhaus. You can put the next level down. It's still going to be

a fricking amazing house. But there are things that aren't included in that level. And Enduro Builders knows how to execute. And you don't have to worry about verification with a builder like him, like Enduro Builders or like yourselves, because the integrity is there, the experience is there. And the knowledge is there. Whereas if you choose, as you say, if you choose someone who is less experienced, then there's no way of knowing what you're going to get really.

Matthew (53:00)

100%.

Jess Kismet (53:03)

There's no way of knowing. And the building code will not necessarily be the net. Not necessarily.

So carrying on from that, trying to weave all these questions together. ⁓ What would you change about the NCC, both of you, tomorrow if you could? Or today, right now, with the magic wand.

Hamish (53:25)

Matt, I I

think Matt, recommend my, my answer on this is going to be the same. It says build verification.

Jess Kismet (53:31)

Yep,

Matthew (53:32)

How long?

Yeah, how long we got? Yeah. No, no, I actually, I'm a hundred percent with you. I've got, I'm gonna run with two. So one of them is, yeah, test and  building verification. That is.

Jess Kismet (53:34)

Yeah.

Hamish (53:35)

Well, it's one, it's one, it's one thing. As built verification.

Matthew (53:49)

checking off the glazing that is writing a stat deck that's built as designed from a performance perspective, not as a construction, as performance. That's blower door testing. Thermal imaging is one that I've said before, but potentially you don't know how to use a thermal imaging camera. That can quite easily come across as fine, but it's yeah, a hundred percent that. The second one for me is introducing and the introduction of mechanical ventilation. I think that's a huge one because at the moment,

Jess Kismet (54:05)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

heat recovery

or just better extraction.

Matthew (54:18)

No,

let's just start with mechanical ventilation on a complete continuous cycle that's continually running. Not a switch. It is a continuous running loop of air exchange to flush out the nasty air quality inside and also to remove the moisture. Let's just start there. Let's see how that goes. Yeah, you're going to take an energy penalty for turning over your air. It might be 30, 60, 130 cubes. I don't know per hour. I don't know what percentage. That's for someone smarter than me to

to work that out, but I think we can reduce a lot of things like that. I think we can reduce a lot of problems in our code and building industry with the one test and we too produce continuous mechanical ventilation loop.

Jess Kismet (55:01)

Yep. Hame, do you want to add anything?

Matthew (55:02)

and also,

Hamish (55:03)

close

Matthew (55:03)

yeah.

Hamish (55:03)

out? Yeah, if I can. I just want to circle back to that ⁓ as built verification. In my very humble opinion, if every single home in Australia from this point onwards was built to seven stars like actual seven stars, it is going to have a much greater impact than Matt and myself and the handful of other really great builders around Australia who are building, know, power performance of Passivhaus.

It's going to have a much bigger impact on our building stock because seven stars takes in orientation. It takes in thermal performance. It's ⁓ a whole of home energy consumption. But I guarantee because this is not verified seven star as built verification, those seven star homes that are being built at the moment, there's eight star homes getting built at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them aren't actually.

Jess Kismet (55:31)

Mm.

Hamish (55:58)

seven star when they sat down and tested.

Jess Kismet (56:03)

Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (56:04)

I

couldn't agree more. I think, yeah. Yeah, it's low hanging fruit too. It's not like it's that hard.

Jess Kismet (56:13)

Mm-hmm.

Hamish (56:13)

through.

Matthew (56:15)

a concept that you had to build something to a certain standard, but then didn't have to actually build to that certain standard. That's what a seven star is. you could tick a box and say you've done it, but really does it matter? Like it's just a weird concept to get your head around. So I'm with Hame I think that's best one, you'd change.

Jess Kismet (56:33)

Ahem. ⁓

Yeah, it's extremely vague.

OK. Well, I just have one final question for you both that I ask all of my guests on this podcast. ⁓ What is the one thing you both want the industry to know?

Matthew (56:49)

The Mindful Builder

Hamish (56:51)

The one thing that I want the industry to know, ⁓ that you know what?

That building better is a choice and it's not that hard.

Jess Kismet (57:02)

Yeah.

Very good. Thank you.

Matthew (57:05)

This is a really

good, this is a really good, what was the question again?

Jess Kismet (57:09)

If there's one thing you want the industry to know out of all of your experience and learnings and everything, all of your training, what's the one, if you had to pick one, what would it be?

Matthew (57:19)

You're gonna make mistakes and that's okay.

Jess Kismet (57:22)

Yeah. On that note.

Matthew (57:23)

You're gonna fuck up.

Hamish (57:24)

and that Drew

from Passive Tech won't charge you for four blower door tests.

Matthew (57:34)

Yeah, death, death, birth, and Drew's not charging you. ⁓ for f-

Jess Kismet (57:39)

⁓

All right, guys. Well, we will wrap it up there. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy builder schedules to talk to me. I really, really appreciate it. You guys are doing such a great job.

Matthew (57:44)

Thank you.

So thank you.

Thanks, Jess. Thanks for having us. Thanks for doing the podcast.

Hamish (57:54)

Thanks, Jess, and you too. And

yeah, awesome. And let's get you back on and let's do some, let's do some events together. Cause I reckon there's a really great opportunity for the three of us to get our enthusiastic brains together. I reckon it'd a lot of fun.

Jess Kismet (58:09)

Right on. Yeah, I agree. Let's do it. All right, guys. Thank you. Okay, bye. ⁓

Matthew (58:12)

Thank you.

Hamish (58:13)

Done. See

ya. Bye.

10.53