Finding your True North in Personal Branding

Zahra  

Hello, everybody, and welcome to today's episode. Today I am talking with Lauren Clemett and I am so excited to speak to you today and have you on the show. We got to talking the other night at a function and I'm pretty sure we shut the place down we were so into our conversation about brand. And I just cannot wait for our listeners to hear the wonderful thing that you have to say, and and glean a little bit of your expertise and knowledge in the realm of personal branding because there is a lot of conversation happening about personal branding. And I think it's really important to clarify some things and you're just the person to do it so thank you, thank you so much for joining me.

Lauren  

It's brilliant to be here thank you, Zarah and it's lovely to have people talking about personal branding, because I've been doing it for so long. It was a bit lonely at the start when I was first talking about personal branding people like what's a personal brand, I have no idea what you're talking about. And now at least there's a conversation, which is really, really cool. I love it. 

Zahra  

You know what, I think that's so funny because it's a similar sense you know, when we first started, and we were you know, talking about, you know, brand strategy, nobody knew, you know, every time we said brand, they the natural thought was logo, right. And so we had to go back and and, you know, kind of open up that conversation and it was so hard, even just getting speaking gigs back in the day, because they're like, you want to talk about what now. It's interesting to see now how you know, popularity is it almost seems impossible, you know that this was not a topic, you know, so saturated now.

Lauren  

Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting, I just actually wrote a comment on social media just the other day about how I'm a little bit sick and tired of people going, your brand is not your logo, well, actually your logo is a massive part of your brand, it does a huge amount of the legwork. A logo is almost like your facts, proposed personal brand that people instantly recognize you just by seeing a photo of you or thing you walk down the street or seeing you walk on stage or hearing your voice. Your logo has got to do so much to introduce your brand to somebody and get that recall and memory and it ties in with emotion and logic from your brain. So yeah, I understand that a logo is not an entire brand, there's a lot more to it than that. But just you can throw away the value of having a recognizable personality out there in the marketplace and a logo for a business is just like your signature is unique and really, really valuable to have.

Zahra  

Yeah, I completely agree. As a matter of fact, you know, in our process for building brands, we never touch the visual until we first done the identity and the strategy and the positioning. Because otherwise, it's just another graphic design, you know, but it really needs to speak to the core, you speak to your audience and and evoke the feelings through spacing through composition through gridlines to column through font, you know how thick your font is the slant of it, you know, everything and has to convey you know, who you are in a way that is memorable and in the way that simple, easy to recall distinguishable. And that is one of the greatest assets and tools that you have in your branding kit, right? Because there is you know, so much that goes into it but oh my gosh, we're getting so far ahead of ourselves, and I need to introduce you first. So I know that most of you need no introduction, but I'm going to do it anyways because I'm a thorough person. So I'm going to talk a little bit about you, Lauren. So you are the brand navigator, you're an international award winning neuro branding expert. So I want to tell you a little bit about Lauren she was told as a child that she had word blindness and would never be able to read or write properly. She went on to become a five time best selling author using her dyslexia disability as a greatest asset helping others understand how the brain sees brands. I think that's so amazing that you turned what others would see a challenge into your greatest asset I think it's fantastic. She's worked with leading advertising agencies and has been in brand management for over 30 years. She's helped launch hundreds of global brands and appears in worldwide media and unconference stages as a sought after branding specialist. Lauren shares how to overcome overwhelm and get a clear direction to market and promote professional and business services to make your personal branding a walk in the park. So at the end here, we're going to talk to you about her upcoming books and tell you how to get a hold of them. But before we even get there, let's just dive right into the meat of it. Today we're going to be talking all about personal brands versus business brands. Lauren's expertise is in personal brand so if you feel like when it comes to personal brands, you have a very visceral reaction to it, you're either like excited to jump right in and be the next celeb, or you're just like hiding under a desk shy away. So if you're one of those two people, then you need to be listening to this today and take careful notes, so that you understand the difference and we're also going to teach you some tips. Laura's gonna talk to us a little bit about how to find alignment, you know, and, and really direction and use your brand, not just as like a fun thing that's on your website about his page, but how do you really use it to tactically make your mark in your industry, and then we're gonna get into the science of it, because I think that's really important. I think that, and I don't know, if you, you've experienced this, but being in a creative industry, you know, there's so much emphasis put on trends and creativity. And, you know, while there's definitely design and all of that involved in it, most of the time, when we have the most impact on a brand, it's because we're able to provide them with a framework with simplicity, clarity and direction, like, that's really where, you know, the brand's effectiveness starts to kick in, you know, not to say that the rest doesn't matter. It's definitely does, you know, there but so and that's, you know, it's a matter of understanding the science behind it, and knowing how to strategically, you know, compose these brands and so I'm so excited to talk to you, but all the things. All right, so let's kick this off by breaking down the difference between personal brands, and a company brand. What are your thoughts, Lauren?

Lauren  

It's a great, I get asked this all the time and I did remember I've come from a background of working in like the likes of Clemenger and Ogilvy, I mean, some really big, awesome, amazing world leading advertising agencies. And we worked on the likes of the big banks and the big finance companies and the fast moving consumer good companies. And we worked on some pretty big brands, wasn't until I left New Zealand moved to Australia and when I really didn't want to work in agency land anymore, I want to work with people. And I noticed there was a massive shift towards people leaving their jobs, their nine to five jobs where they worked for a big brand inside a company. And they were just a person, a cog, basically in the machine, to going out and starting their own professional services business and I would start to exchange the experience and the expertise and the knowledge and the natural skills and talents for an income. So they might become an insurance advisor or a real estate agent, or a salesperson, or I own their own franchise. And I really notice this massive shift around the world that people are moving into the services businesses and there's a reason for that. It's a really low barrier to entry, you don't need to have a massive big warehouse, you don't need to have machinery and resources and people creating things. If you're selling a service, you can go out and get your real estate license in a couple of months in Australia a little bit longer in some other countries. You know, you can start up wellness business by getting a few credentials and learning your trade and then away you go. But you know, an office out the back of your house, you can you know work from anywhere, the pandemic has been set up, basically because now it's no problem to work remotely, you don't need an office anymore. You know, we don't need to meet in person anymore, you can do advisory or canceling or coaching with a Zoom call, you know, the pandemic has really, really pushed and accelerated the fact that we can go out there and become our own brand. So what I've noticed, and it really is the the major difference, I guess, between the business brand and a personal brand, is a business brand is an identity that is owned by a number of people. So for example, if you work for one of the big banks, you talk about your role by what you do. So I'm an accumulator or I'm an HR person or on a receptionist, right? You define yourself based on the role that you have within that business and within that brand. For a personal brand it's very much around what we talked about very early today. It's around purpose and alignment. It's about who you are, and your purpose on this planet, not just what you do. So there's a lot more to it because when you're buying, especially a professional service, you need to really know like and trust that person, before you're prepared to listen to them and certainly before you're prepared to hand over earning money and pay for their service. So there's a huge amount more trust required for a personal brand, compared to a business brand, where a lot of the time we either buy from a business brand, because it's something we've always done. So if you're buying from a supermarket, it might be a brand new just recognize, you know, the packaging, you just grab it off the shelf, you don't even think about it and that's the loyalty factor of a brand. And you can build a loyalty factor as a person, but it's very much around reputation, rather than that recognition factor. And then there's, you know, you can you can have people who buy business brands based on the fact that they prefer the flavor. So there's always the Coke versus the, you know, argument, you know, which one do you like and if you think about it, a personal brand is just another flavor. So it's how do you find your thing, your one thing that you want to stand out for so that you are the preferred flavor of real estate agent, financial advisor, you know, franchise owner, lawn mowing company, whatever it is that you run as your business. How can you become the go to, for your ideal customers and I guess the biggest difference with a personal brand is that it is all about relationships, you can actually have, so for example, an insurance company that you've paid the premiums for years and years and years, you're part of that company, that's the brand you prefer to go with. And the reason you go with them is because they give you good discounts, and they answer their phone, but you could be dealing with any number of different people within that brand, at any time in your lifestyle, and your life stage with a personal brand new to that because you liked the person, because you want to around them, because you like who they are, you trust who they are. And you feel really comfortable purchasing from them and listening to them and listening to them. So personal branding really, really comes into a strength of its own when you are selling something intangible, you're selling advice, or time or you're a personal trainer, or you're somebody who really is trying to sell an outcome, rather than a product. And that, to me is really exciting, because there's so much fun you can have with it.

Zahra  

Yeah, I agree and I you know, we often tell people, although, you know, our agency doesn't do personal branding, because there's you know, different techniques, you know, that you can leverage a personal brand for a brand. So like take apple, for example there's the ethos of Apple, which think differently, innovation, you know, and then there's Steve Jobs, the personal brand and because he built so much value for his personal brand, it was leveraged and it was used to help bolster apples. And so, you know, the two can exist separately, you know, and yet when Steve Jobs, you know, leaves, Apple remains right. And so, I think that that's really a an important because I've heard it said, and I want to know what you would say to this, that people will say, well, I really want to stay behind the scenes of my company. I don't really want to make you know, my agency or my firm about me, because I'm afraid that it'll if I push the personal brand, it'll harm my brand valuation if I ever want to sell or exit. So can you speak a little bit to that point and and you know, what your thoughts on that are?

Lauren  

Yeah, absolutely and the example Apple is used a lot as a great branding example. And there's other examples Virgin, the same was with Richard Branson, and Oprah Winfrey was Harpo, I mean, these people live their brand, and the business brand came out of their personal brand. It's a little bit like, if you imagine watching a animated movie, a cartoon, and you know the voiceover artist, you can recognize the voice and you look at the character that the cartoonists have drawn, and they've got lots of like representations like Eddie Murphy sounds and looks like Donkey right in streak. So, so you're just sort of you get that feeling that you're familiar. So that's a little bit like the fact that everything that Apple has done, came from Steve Jobs' personality, he pushed the envelope. He wasn't a highly liked man and that business not a lot of people liked working with Steve he pushed them. He challenged them, he had no patience with them, you know, he was quite a difficult person to work for. But man, was he a visionary and he in respect because of the way that he did they actually push that. That fabulous story of you know, him being pushed out of his own business and so on and then being invited back. So yeah, your business brand can absolutely come from your personal brand and as the owner of a business, you almost have a responsibility to give people I know you talked about use that fabulous word framework, you know, there's framework for brands. And when you create a framework using your personal brand, you're injecting a little bit of your personality into the business brand. So that, you know, when you fly on Virgin, you're gonna get that whole idea of people just love looking at you, because Virgin talks all about looking after their crew looking after their team. And they'll look after the customers, you know, when you pull on a pair of Nikes you know, it's all about victory and achieving great things and running a marathon. You know, when that ran was started, the whole idea of Phil Knight's idea was around a theme or the Greek goddess of victory and doing things differently and pushing the envelope. So, yeah, there's little bits of people's own personal brands and get injected into the business brand. And if you own a business, if you're listening to this podcast, and you are a business owner, even if you're an introvert, I'm not expecting you to overnight, become an extrovert and get out there and stand on stage and give presentations and be in the spotlight, not really what you have to do. It's more about giving the people who work within your business, that framework so that they know the purpose of the company, they know the direction of the company, they know why you do certain things and they can relate that back to the leader of the business. But if you inject that into the framework of the business, and how it runs itself, and how it lives, its brand, doesn't matter that you retire, or the business is sold, or somebody else takes over or woe betide, same as Steve Jobs who passed away, you know, your business is going to continue and the ethos behind that brand is going to continue to come from your beliefs and values and motives and so on. So yeah, if you think about it, as a business owner, that what you're doing is creating a framework for your business to survive and create a brand and live on its own. As part of what you do and part of your ethos, you can really create a great impact for your team for your staff, you can give them a reason for why you do things. And then they'll want to, you know, embrace that limit as well, which is very, very cool. And you don't have to get out there and, you know, be the person standing at the front making lots of noise, you can see be, and there's lots of them. It's an amazing entrepreneurial business leaders out there, who quietly are just getting on with doing amazing things but their team and their business, absolutely love them. 

Zahra  

I love that. So I want to repeat something to you that I once was once said to me, that I'm sure it's gonna make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. But I want you to tell me what you would have said in this scenario, right? So somebody once said to me, that I don't feel comfortable putting my personal brand in a box, because my personality is so nuanced and very, has such a variety to it, that I feel like not showing all the different sides of me at all times would be inauthentic. So talk to me about how sometimes, you know where that authenticity versus structure, you know, where it can maybe become a little damaging when you when you completely go off script or don't have any kind of framework to talk about.

Lauren  

 I love this, I love the thank you so much for asking me, Zara, because this is something when someone says to me, oh, you can't put me in a box, I don't have a crystal ball and I've got so many things and so I'm so diverse, that totally different dimensions to what I do. I challenge that person. Because in reality, from my point of view on the way that I understand neuro branding, and how the brain works and how it sees brands and how we want to be safe. That person is basically struggling with their own sense of purpose and direction and they haven't yet found the number one thing they want to be known like and trust and for and that's all it is. It's just a little bit of fear. Now, in order to really understand that you need to understand how the brain operates. So inside our brains as an entrepreneur, if you've gone out there and you've started your own business, you've stepped out of the you know, safety of a corporate role, and you've gone and you've done something and you're doing all these amazing things. You have overcome the fear center inside your brain so you've got a superhuman brain as an entrepreneur. He's basically told that amygdala that that part of your brain that's telling you, that was the day job, earn the safe money. I know you hate your job, you hate your life, but you're earning good money, you need to pay the bills, and it's safe. You basically told that part of your brain take a hike and it's okay I know there's risks, but I'm going to do it in her so an entrepreneur hasn't superhuman brain. The trouble with the superhuman brain is you also have the kryptonite and the kryptonite for a superhuman brain is bright, shiny object itis. And that, oh, I can do this oh, what about that idea you have in the shower, or when you're walking the dog or late at night, after a few drinks with some friends, you go, well, let's do that and you just end up trying to be everything to everyone. And the problem with that is, and you'll know this, if you've met someone who's really sure about what it is that they do, they can't define themselves and say, Hey, this is what I'm the specialist and they are all over the place. They come across as a bit flaky, don't they? They kind of like I met one person once who had I've done it a couple times, actually, they've got one business identity on one side of their business card and then they turn it over and say, oh, and I also do this. Yeah, right, yeah, happen more than once to me. Yeah and the feeling immediately in my brain is my own amygdala that wants to keep me safe as going, this person doesn't know what they're doing. Do not trust them, they're flaky, they're all over the place, and you back away. So that you have as an entrepreneur, trying to build your own business, if you try to do too many things, and you don't define yourself, and you don't choose your lane, basically, putting you in a box, I hate the idea of putting someone in a box. We can't do that there's so many different reasons to our personalities. But what I mean is by choosing your lane, and if you continue to say no, no, I want to pull in all lanes, I want to do breaststroke and backstroke and butterfly and I want to do all those things you know, is that you miss out on so much opportunity, because you are scaring a lot of people, you're not giving them that sense of trust, that sense of familiarity, or reliability of this is someone I can really know who's going to know what they're doing the fatigue is there. And you end up doing that bright shiny object itis and suffering from FOMO, the fear of missing out. Whereas it's weird, the minute that I've worked with lovely people who are like this to start off with, and they are very, very afraid that I'm going to lock them down and, you know, stop them from doing all these things. And it's like, no, no, let's talk about you know, what really you're passionate about? How can we pull all of those things together into one direction for you. When they do that, and they go, Oh, my goodness, this is what I really want to be doing. That's what I want to be known as they shuffle those other doors that have previously been flung open and stuff coming in and out and then wafting around and they're not sure what to do and they're wasting huge amount of time and money. And they start focusing. And all of a sudden these doors open, and they get asked to stand on stage and speak about a particular topic, they get asked to be on podcasts, they get in the in the media, because they're talking about a thing that's really relevant, they start picking up incredible clients who love them for what they do. And they just go ha I wish I'd done this years ago, you know, so they get over that so if you are sitting there going, Oh, I don't like the idea of personal branding. It feels like it's restricting me, it is restricting you. But it's restricting you so that you can grow. So that you can grow in one direction and not be, you know, open to all these other bright, shiny things that are around you and it's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing to know what direction you're going in, because you can have self confidence to know. Yep, this is what I shouldn't be doing. It feels good. It feels right. I'm in my lane.

Zahra  

Yeah, and I love that you touch on that because, you know, it's interesting. You know, because I, it's funny to see brand new, we're in to kind of different realms as far as personal versus and what's interesting about products is when we create this framework, you know, that's the language that we use, we say, what what this is going to teach you how to do this is your guideline, when you have a decision to make about product development, about signature lines about, you know, how we do we move into a sub brand, this answers those questions. Because as a maker, as an inventor, as you know, as a person who employs dozens of people who are all creative geniuses, it's never a matter of where the next great idea is coming from. It's which it's the editing, right, which great idea makes sense for my brand and will, you know, add to the brand equity and which one, you know which of these is not fit, right, which is he's not like the others and what isn't a great idea, but a great idea for another brand, right? And so like kind of understanding that and I find and I don't know, if you've, you know, I wonder how that translates because when I'm talking to product brands, you know, these are larger product brands. So when they make a choice on a product, you know, they're instantly going into 10,000 units. So they understand that, hey, if I choose to do this and I don't feel like it's a good representation of my brand, tt won't sell and I will have lost a lot of money. But I feel like that's a slippery, slippery year. Is that a slippery slope when it comes to services because we don't have that tangible cost of goods. So as a personal brand, I could decide tomorrow, hey, guess what I'm gonna start doing for you because that's part of my services right? And so like, how, how do you, you know, do you find that it's a little bit more challenging for personal brands to keep that tight? 

Lauren  

Well, the nice thing is, it's exactly what you were just saying, it's the same thing for a personal brand, or for this product, brand or a business brand. It's like a litmus test. And you know, when you are going off track, when you're just on in the woods, all of a sudden, and it doesn't feel right. When you understand this is my True North, this is the direction I should be going in with my personal brand. It just it's so weird how quickly it happens that people and it's funny people did to me after they've they've read my books, or worked with me or listened to me fate. They've said, you know, now I know what I'm doing, I've come up with all the amazing ideas and I know that they're going to work because they fit with my brand. They're aligned, they're going in the same direction and the minute they go off that path, they go, Oh, this doesn't feel right. And it really becomes a visceral thing, when you have a really clear framework or direction for your brand and you can test anything. So yeah, those ideas that you do have, because we never stopped being creative. That's the cool thing, isn't it? That's so cool about being an entrepreneur and having an entrepreneurial brain as you come up with amazing ideas all the time. But it's just about how do we decide this is what is right for our brand and when you know, that's the direction, this is where I'm going this is what I want to be known for. It's so easy to make those decisions and it's exactly the same when you're doing personal branding exactly the same.

Zahra  

I love that and so I want to ask you a question that I feel you're the perfect person to answer it, because it truly speaks to true north in direction. So one of the things that I hear a lot, you know, is pivot pivot pivot, and that drives me nuts, right because when all you do is pivot, you expend a lot of energy, you know, to vector lean, female, he was shocked. And so you know, that the the way that you're able to evolve rather than pivot, right, gets you to that destination so if you know where you're headed, then you know how to find your True North like to get there. So talk a little bit about the pitfalls of pivoting versus evolving or when it's okay to pivot do you think versus evolving like talk a little bit about that.

Lauren  

Yeah, absolutely. So and you're absolutely right and it's funny, you made that relationship between a product based brand, you know, you wouldn't go and set up a warehouse with machinery and people and stock and everything to create a product that you knew would not sell, you just wouldn't happen, right? You do, what the deal is processes to stop you making those mistakes. When you're selling a service, it is much easier to those mistakes and the problem is the biggest waste you have, if you like, is time. And so many people undervalue their time, and they don't charge for things and they you know, do things for nothing, and they spend all this wasted time on stuff that doesn't give them any result. So it's really, really vital that you find that true north as soon as you can, so that you can stop wasting time and start what it's what I call them, I don't know whether you've heard of them before, who am it's something came from New Zealand music, it stands for ways to flipping time and money, right? So people fall into this trap of mock them all the time and then all of a stop wasting lots of time and money on stuff that's never gonna give you any results. And I don't mean not being charitable and not helping out and not being generous with things like jumping on podcasts and giving your information away and so on that that's part of building that know, like and trust. What I mean is exactly what you said there, which is one your time going down and particular avenue knowing that in the heart of hearts, it's not where you want to be, it's not what you want to be doing so and just doing it because it was an idea that you had. So I guess when it comes to setting yourself up with your personal brand and deciding on that direction, and that True North it very much is around understanding what your life's purpose. And that's probably one of the reasons why a lot of people don't look at their personal brand is because they're not afraid to look at their life's purpose and go well actually, why am I here? What am I on this earth to do? You know, we only have so much time on this planet. out and you want to really make as much impact as possible while you're here. So a lot of people shy away from personal branding, because you are asking some pretty deep questions of yourself. And I guess the difference between pivoting and adapting, if you think about it, how many brands do you know, have rebranded. I mean, masses, right and there's horror stories, there's a lot of the get clothing and the new coat story and other horror stories about rebranding. But then rebranding going on all the time, little tweaks being made for logos changes as the target audiences, differences in product development, all these things that big brands are doing every single day, they are evolving and adapting and changing, depending on what the market. Now, the difference between evolving and pivoting is just simply time, that's all of us, the only the only evolving take time, right? Take the long process of making sure that the way you want your brand to go. And at like evolution of man takes a long time, a pivot is something that has to happen, because yesterday, your market was there and tomorrow, it's not. So when the pandemic happened, all of a sudden, there were massive changes to lots and lots of businesses, hospitality shut down the music industry with live events shut down, the medical industry changed turned completely on its ear, and the travel industry shut down, that had to have a pivot and they caused ripples through our entire world, but we're still dealing with today. So a pivot is something if you're going to pivot, you're going to have to realize that it's going to be a big change, it's going to have to happen fast, and it's gonna create waves. So to do a pivot, you need to be absolutely 100% certain that you're changing to go to the right direction, because you can't have it back. Once you've moved away, you can't go oh, I made a mistake. I don't know when you might have a friend do it, oh, I'm gonna get to that I don't want to do real estate anymore and they go and do something else. And then they jump back and go, and I was back in real estate and there's like, you're not deciding what you want to do, you know, just make a decision. And it comes down to lack of confidence, you know that people are really second guessing themselves? They're not sure and the only way to really know whether it's an evolution or pivot is how much of a waiver you're going to make when you make that change. And how quickly does it have to happen and I just yeah, my only suggestion and advice would be just know, 100% and your heart of hearts, that that's what you want to do and have a strategy before you make those changes. And before you rebrand, or adapt or pivot or whatever you're going to do being really sure that's what it is and do your research. 

Zahra  

And I think you touched on some key things and what I loved about what you did there is separating, you know, the two because, you know, like take Netflix, for instance right? They you know, when you there's a difference between pivoting an offer, and pivoting your entire brand image, right. So like we talked about, you know, the, you know, the pandemic, so restaurants have to pivot their offer, but do they pivot? But is it the vision something that pivots? Are they now not, you know, responding? And so those are the kinds of things where I think people get a little tripped up and like pivoting an offer, and maybe a experience right, so now we're not looking at bricks and mortar experience we're looking at, you know, almost an unboxing right, so now you're relying on DoorDash and Grubhub. And so how are you? What are your two go things look like we've never looked at that before, maybe we should take a look at you know how well we deal with her to go packaging now. But kind of understanding our online apps and things like that. But understanding the experience, you know, the difference and pivoting like an offer, and then making these sharp pivots in sharp and frequent pivots in your brand itself, you know, and, and like and to your point is doing the research, because I don't know if you've experienced this, but so often, when you first enter a market, it's very fast and easy and cheap to make your first run, and then it gets hard, then it's not, you know, I can just throw spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks. Now you need a strategy to optimize and scale and so if you don't have that a lot of times your answer is well, I need to pivot. Clearly I'm talking to the wrong person. Clearly, I've got the wrong offer. Clearly I'm in the wrong market, and then pivot and then that seems like the right answer. Because again, in the beginning, it's very quickly to go from zero to a little something, but then to grow and scale that you know it because I call it the brick wall, you slam against a brick wall and they like oops, not it. It's not hard, all of a sudden instead of pushing through to figure out and solve for that problem. There's kind of a let me shift into you know, and so I think it was really and I say that because I want to highlight it and you know if I knew how to slomo that out and say it over and over what you said but it's really, you know, understanding going into it with intention, understanding if you're going to make a move, is this because it got hard? Or is this because I really feel like there's a misalignment there and this is why, and these are the, this is the data that backs that. 

Lauren  

And really it's interesting Zahra, because it actually is easier with a personal brand because, yeah, there's always had that you have to do and so on. But when you know the direction you're going, and if it's hard, you're going in the wrong direction, you're like you're swimming against the current, right? You know, with your personal brand, if you're selling the right product, or the right service, you're doing the right things, because it's easy, because you blow because people are naturally attracted to you, you don't have to work hard to get them to agree. One of the things I talk about a lot is the difference between changing attitudes and changing behaviors. And I guess that's the thing like the whole DoorDash, you know, online ordering of food and eating it at home, and so on, that's changed the behavior of a worldwide population that were more prepared, that we liked the idea of going home staying home, I don't want to go out to the restaurant anymore, because that's a pain, I'll just get it brought to their stomach, the food, I still want the lovely nonbreeding, the beautiful doll and stuff from my local Indian takeaway, but I just don't want to go there, I want it to come to me. So, so the behavior has changed but changing attitudes is really easy to change. Changing behavior takes a bit more time and when it comes to selling a professional service, you really have to be a pro. If you remember this, if you're listening to the podcast, and you're driving along, they just remember being a pro. Pro stands for problem resolution outcome and the way to change behaviors and get people to do what you want them to do, especially buying your services or your products or going out of their way to do something that they don't really feel comfortable doing is to paint a picture of the outcome, so that they actually want it before they've got it. So problem talk about problems and the marketing, that's fine, talk about resolutions, how you sold them for people and, and how you do what you do differently, and so on. But you must paint a picture of the outcome and very few people do that with their marketing and their brand story. And it's a really quick way of switching your customers brain on to see what you deliver and wanted and be prepared to pay for it, even before they've got it. So your brain works and pictures that doesn't work and words. And it will paint a picture of the outcome based on what you're bringing someone. So if you tell them that, you know, something's gonna be cheaper, or faster or easier, or you're gonna lose weight quicker or be more secure, or you're you're feeding into those sorts of emotions and those emotional needs, you need to paint a picture of what life is going to be like once they've used your services or use your product. So I'm actually going to play a game with your brain. Is that right? If you don't mind on the gas, I'm gonna give you two, I'm gonna give you two words and anyone listening can have a go at this as well you don't need to write anything down. I'm going to give you two words to think about and then I'm going to ask you some questions about those words to show you how quickly our brains can paint a picture of the outcome. So the words I want you to think about are bacon, and eggs. Think about bacon and eggs just think about those words bacon and eggs so what are you Caesar in your brain? What did you do? How were your eggs cooked? 

Zahra  

Actually, the thing that I saw was a t shirt that I bought from my son when he was three years old. That was a representation of a little skull and the eyes were sending side up eggs and the mouth.

Lauren  

Friend, did I tell you to think about a shirt that your son like years and years ago, no nothing. Your brain remembered that memory and came up with that picture straight away and now you're probably thinking about what it was like when you're suffering that shirt and where you were and all these memories.

Zahra  

Every time you saw it.

Lauren  

Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. So your brain painted that picture and brought back that memory in milliseconds, I didn't tell you anything. A lot of people see fried eggs or scrambled eggs, poached eggs. Some people say things and chickens, there's like your brain is incredibly clever at painting the outcome that you really want to say for some reason. You wanted that memory of thing, your son and that shirt and so on, and it came flooding back to you. So if you don't paint a picture of the outcome for your customer or prospective clients, they're going to do their own picture. They're gonna make up whatever they want, right? So you need to give them that brand story and the elements to create an outcome to say this is what your picture yourself. I mean, good salesperson does this all the time. Picture yourself driving the car down the open road and enjoying your weekend from the top down or over. They'll take that picture for you so that you want that with you actually ever take the top down and shop around is another thing entirely, but they've painted a desire in your brain for the outcome. So if you can do that with your branding and paint their picture of the outcome, you're gonna start to see people really wanting what you have. And it just backs up the fact that if you choose that lane and go, this is what I want to be known for, this is the type of people I want to attract to my business. This is the sort of services or the sort of product for someone to offer, and this is how I want to make them feel, then you're halfway there to really, you know, creating a really cool brand that people will follow.

Zahra  

And I think the other thing to add to that, you know, just in how beneficial that is to your brand is, when we talk about, you know, brand valuations. And when we talk about, you know, brand equity, having that transformation and being able to build that for your customer sets them up to be pleasantly sets about for pleasure, right? Because if they have an expectation, and you're not in control of what that is, how likely are you to hit that marks one in a million, right. And so then you have people, you know, we see it all the time, we have econ products, you know, and they'll say, you know, they'll come to us, like, I don't get it, you know, somebody said that, my thing didn't come in pink, it's not supposed to come in pink, you know, we never were meant to come and peek or they said it's not organic, it's not supposed to be organic, we never said it was it's, you know, we're not painting these pictures for people and we're not setting these clear expectations. You know, when when we say things like quality, and we don't define what quality means to us what it means to be quality to us, then they're going to create their own idea of what that is. And if we don't hit that one in a million shot for each and every one of our customers, were up a creek as far as brand reputation and reviews and you know, that kind of let down. So I think that just looking, you know, looking at it from that, that sense and that lens, it really does affect your value. 

Lauren  

Yeah, absolutely and knowing that your brand promise. And it's really, really cool because you know, if you can't actually deliver that brand promise you're promising them on that. So go back to the drawing board and figure out what is it that I actually want to deliver for people? It's really cool.

Zahra  

Yeah, so you okay, you set me up perfectly for the next one I love okay so, you know, we're talking here about your brand promise, right? And one of the conversations that we have a lot is now how do we take your brand promise and transition that into a brand standard, right? And so for our product brands, that's an easy thing, but creating the tangible talk to me about what that looks like, from a personal brand standpoint, how do we create those brand standards because I feel like a lot of times with personal brands and firms, we kind of missed the mark on that, as far as you know, hitting a brand standard, because we don't feel that we have, you know, the features and the unboxing that we have with with physical products, right?

Lauren  

It's a bit unchangeable, isn't it? I'm actually going to share a story of a local company here in Queensland that I helped. So they are a stationary goods supply office goods office product and this, AJ had actually purchased the business so he didn't have anything to do with the original brand and the brand new English, their business was called Sharp Office Supplies. Now we all know Sharp as the people who make the photocopier and so on. So there's a really massive international brand called Sharp out there. His brand wasn't sharp, his brand was Sharp with a neon mean, it was yellow and black. They'd even underline the E to try and help people that sharp. I don't know what it was like. So they spent most of their time and most of his team's spend all their time on the phone answering questions about no, we don't sell photo copiers, we're not that company. We're a different company so half the time they were talking to people about what they didn't do rather than didn't do. So we have to rebrand it was obvious, we had to rebrand. He was worried that if they did that they'd lose their customers because they knew the brand for so long and so on, but they still don't know what the brand is. So let's look at what the options are so we went through with his personal brand, what he stood for, what was his brand promise, what did he want the company to have as a standard but every time you interacted with them, you got this and it came down to the fact that we looked at the way they operated and his real values and so on. They really made life easy for their customers you know, they wouldn't just deliver the stationery to the the front door. They would take it into the office and unpack it into the stationery cupboard for people. They would notice when they were just about out of photocopy paper, which is the worst thing that for office to run out on because right in the middle of great. So thanks rake the first away, and they would really enter a lovely to deal with nothing was ever a problem. You know, there was such a nice company so we came up with a new brand. And we thought that the new brand Easy Office Supplies, weirdly enough, nobody had had trademarked the easy guy. Yeah, the suppliers in the area so we had that. We create a logo that looked like a post it note that you tore off and funnily enough, most receptions will tell you when we run out of station that you're writing something or post it note and stick it on your computer and say, you know, to order that, that was very familiar. And they changed the way and here's the here's the kicker, here's how you deliver on your promise. When they answer the phone and there's a horrible saying in Australia, I never like where they say no problem. Now, to me, that means there's a problem, right? They're using the word problem, a lot of are no problem, you know, and they no problem at all. I don't like that particular same. So we changed in the office, and they picked it up really quickly and all the staff did it was every time they talk to someone they said that's easy. Like move from no problem to that easy and it became a real vernacular for the brand and every single thing they did. All the staff knew that we make it easy for our customers. That's easy. Everything's easy lives with make it easy so even the way that they had their outbound goods shipped out, the guy in the shipping area, said, well, how can we make this easier for people to pack and pick things? And they were constantly then thinking about how do we make life easy so they were living the brand. And now he owns I think five or six different companies and has changed their brand to easy and they're doing really, really well. So that's an example of how you can get a whole environment to live the brand and to deliver that brand standard. If it's not easy, they don't do it. So the tool flying back to your business and going well, what do we stand for and we had one word, one brand word that we could use, like renewable energy and Nike and, you know, action, just do it. And Apple and innovation, if you're a one word brand strategy that you could live up to what would it be.

Zahra  

And how so, you know, talking about what you were you're using in easy and you know, having that tangible expression. So, you know, we, you know, we do that very easily in in, you know, bricks and mortar or in, you know, goods, talk a little bit about what that might look like, for a personal brand, you know, maybe like a tax, you know, you know, an accounting firm or because, you know, because we you know, we worked with a few, you know, and and, you know, kind of explaining to them and saying, you know, because it's a service industry doesn't mean that there aren't brand standards, there's still an order, there's there's syntax, there's still, you know, like how do we create SOPs that create a consistent experience that becomes the brand standard instead of like, you know, if you you sign up with us, maybe you'll get your contract tomorrow, maybe you'll get it in three weeks, maybe you do, is there an onboarding process for me. They're like, what is the process, how, like, How can you even if you are a service based business or a personal brand, how can you create that brand standard so that you can develop that trust factor so that people know that no matter who you are, you're gonna get that you can expect that quality.

Lauren  

Yeah, brilliant and it's a great question because when you're creating a business, not just about you, I know the personal brands about you and you're creating a business around out that comes out of your brand. If you want to grow your business, and have a team and staff and expand and sell and retire all this stuff, you need to infuse your brand with those values that you have yourself. There's loads of stories I've got one of them is that it's from the wellness industry. So and Anita she used to be called Anita of health or well being or something and it was she had like a lotus flower and her name above the door and stuff like that. So very limiting because who did you say Anita you couldn't have other staff? You know, it was her exchanging your time for money and who the Anita I don't even know what it needs to does. Her key passion is menopause so she really helps women going through that time of their life where they are exhausted, they're putting on weight, they're drinking too much alcohol that oh, tired, they're sick and tired of life. They're moody, they're all these things happening, right? They've got hot flashes, they're not sleeping properly. They don't want sex anymore, life is just you know, and it's so fear because they've just gotten to a time in their life, where the children are grown up and old enough to look after themselves. They've probably got a decent amount of money and they're pretty settled and they shouldn't be having the time of their life and they now have to put up with this shit, not happy right now. One of the things that I kept coming back to remember talking to her about the language, and what's the all one word brand strategy. What's the one thing that all of our clients kept saying to me, I just wish them I just wish this, what did they wish they had. And she said energy, they just wish they had the energy, they're sick and tired of being tired all the time. This is a time in their life where they should be out there enjoying themselves. And they are too tired, so they're asleep on the couch at six o'clock at night, you know, rather than out with their girlfriends or doing hobbies, or traveling or whatever. So I said, Okay, well, let's look at a brand so we created a brand for her, that was cool, moved, V U R V. It was available, it was awesome and she's got this incredible thing and do vurbling that means to get up and go and energy and fun and leisure has orange here, she the Pocket Rocket, she is constantly on the go, she's full of energy.

Zahra  

Wow, for the wellness tree, that it's pastel and low...

Lauren  

Lotus flower, have an even how to move, let's give you some energy back. And all of a sudden, it took off and she's known as the menopause lady and you know, Vurv the pace that goes on so so so that's how you can absolutely infuse your passion and your personality into a promise that you can deliver. And there's so many other stories I've got like, I think.

Zahra  

I love that. Thank you for providing that because I think, you know, that's kind of one of the big points of pushback that we get with service. You know, most mostly we do you know, econ, but when we do a service based business, that's kind of the what I don't like, how do I do a brand standard, it's like, well, there's, you know, pieces that you can put in that create that consistent experience. I know when I go there, kind of, you know, kind of like you go to the doctor, you get a lollipop, you go to the dentist, you don't get candy. There's the standards that you know, like these kids are okay with going to the doctor because they're gonna get their lollipop or their sticker, or whatever it is like, what's that thing that you can do that will provide that consistency. So tell me for yourself, like how has your vision created a clearer sense for your brand as a CEO. Like how have you used that because you have a tremendously powerful brand and when I think of you, you know, I know exactly, I have a clear picture in my mind, who you are, where your expertise lies, I can instantly think of like a million people that I know that need you that I could refer you to, you know, like, there's there's power in that, right? So how have you been able to leverage your vision to deliver on your brand like that.

Lauren  

It's a really interesting story, actually, it's one that I really miss sharing with people. So I grew up living in the bush in New Zealand and we had a lot of independence to go and build shelters and play in the bush and run around the doors and didn't have their shoes on, it was just, you know, a really fabulous way to grow up. But what I learned from that was, it's really, really easy to get lost. The Bush in New Zealand is quite dense, it's like a jungle basically and where I lived was a water catchment area. So it rained a lot and the really thick and you could stray only probably a couple of metres from the path and all of a sudden, you just don't know where you are. And the direction you thought you were going in is not the direction you're going in, and you're really confused and lost. And it wasn't until a lot later in life that somebody reminded me what asked me those questions, you know, where did you go up, what was it like in your life and so on. And really struck me that that's exactly what it's like, when you're building a brand and you're in business, you can just stray slightly from your path of your true direction. And all of a sudden, it's hard and it's dark, and it's horrible and scary and you don't like it and nothing's working for you. And that's why, to me creating my brand around your True North has become just a no brainer. Now that's not to say that I made lots of mistakes and created brands for myself in the past that were completely wrong. I remember when I first looked at launching my own business, so I moved out of working with big advertising agencies and started up my own consultancy here in Australia. I really really liked the idea of an academy for personal branding, and we were gonna do as a whole structure and my business. And I had a whole Top Gun thing going on and there was this amazing, you know, brand academy and ultimate business propeller and all sorts of things go on to wings, animals, you know, Top Gun music behind my videos, lots of stuff. And somebody said to me, so are you in the Air Force and I mean, no. flying a plane or don't do you plane or do you like flying planes in The Hobbit? No, I've got no idea. I once wanted to be an air stewardess when I was about 10 or even younger than that because I thought it'd be nice to travel around the world. But no, I've got no association with flying or all combat for what nothing at all. And obviously became very, very quickly obvious that it was just incongruent and did not align. So I had to basically, in reality crash and burn that brand and start again. And that was when I did that whole, okay, what is my life's purpose? Where am I, from? What am I doing? What is my story? And what's my brand? So a lot of the times I do this with my clients as well is go back to where you grew up, go back to what your life was like, as a kid, what did you learn. You know, what was your passion? What was your, what happened in your life and gave you that guide to get you where you are? And can you relate that to where you are now, you know, our formative years as a child and a young adult, are called formative years for a reason. They give you that grounding, of where you've come from so infusing a little bit of, you know where you've come from, and your passion, there's always a really, really cool way to do it. So from my point of view, brand True North makes a huge amount of, and they keep learning about how it's developing into this great, great brand. And I talk a lot about how your brand is like a compass it keeps you on that True North it keeps you on the right path and a map is your marketing action plan and you've got to put both of them together. I did a little bit of orienteering when I was a kid, I was a Girl Guide. The Girl Scout and orienteering was a bit of fun that we used to do. I hated the running part but I liked the map and compass but but yeah, so that's a really great analogy for for creating a brand that keeps you on trundling, getting out there and doing your marketing and finding your right audience and so on. And just the other day I heard about a part of the brain, the hippocampus is like a map of all your memories and immediately you dive into that part of your brain like you did with your son's t shirt, everything comes flooding back the smells, and the sounds and the feelings and the emotions in the thing. So they have a map inside your brain that will take you back to those those lovely, lovely memories of where you were. And that's what it's like when you create a brand direction is you're giving your customers brains a map to find you. And to go back to our admin or yes, I've been told you're the best person to come to for that. So if you want people to find you, if you really want to stand out, you've got to understand that it's about staying to the path of your TrueNorth and giving people a map to follow so that they find you really really easily. 

Zahra  

Yeah, I think it's beautiful that you that you say that because I think so often. So, you know, we talked about, you know, your limbic system, right, and how it's really trust, desire, you know, recognition memory, right. And, so, what's very interesting about that, is it in that space, you do create very, very deep rooted, you know, and, you know, we've worked with marketing strategies for like salons do like, you know, and you can tap into something. So if you're a hairdresser, let's just say and it's more than just the do, right? It's, this is the first haircut, prom wedding, your kid's first haircut, you know, so now you've got this, you know, this very compelling story, when and sometimes, even though you've experienced it, you still need it said to you kind of like you know, even though you know, your spouse loves you, you still need to hear it. And so even, you know, this hairdresser, this company, this salon has been the place that maybe you and your mom have gone to for your whole life, for every major life experience you've had, you still need the brand to tell you that for you to really, you know, merge the two, the memory with the company, you'll always have the memory, but can I can I reconcile those feelings with the company, the experience with the brand, and sometimes it's just very, you know, being the obvious thing. And so I love that you, you know, drew attention to that because it is interesting.

Lauren  

You're right so often people go, Oh, everyone knows that already, I don't need to keep saying that. But it's like, you know, if you've ever had a teenager, and thankfully my daughter's now older, but as a teenager, how often would you get so exasperated because you were a bit cold out, you need to wear a jumper or probably you need to drink more water or you need to get a bit a bit earlier and they don't listen to you as the parent. But the minute somebody else like one of the best friends is ultimate called this regiment. They go Oh, y'all put a jumper on, it's like how am I telling you that somebody else has told you that so? So yeah, not only do you need to keep repeating it over and over and over again so that people know it, hear it from trust it like it. If you can get third party endorsement as well. If you can create a reputation in the marketplace that's so good, that other people are recommending you for that thing and they using your words, they're repeating your brand statements and your brand promises to people at the minute I hear people go, Oh, yeah, she's the brand navigator. I'm like, hit again because that third party endorsement, somebody else talking about you. And that's what it is I brand is what other people say about you when you're not in the room, and you want to make sure they're saying the right things.

Zahra  

Yeah and I, you know, it's funny, because whenever we do, you know, brand audits, that's one of the things that we look for, you know, five star reviews are great, the five star reviews using similar adjectives, when you have a high percentage using the same additives, the same terms, the same words, that's where you know, you've got a brand, not just a good reputation, not just a great quality product, but having that consistency really shows. And then if those words are also your word, you know, you're on fire, and you've got something that went on there that that's really something. So, I have a question for you you said something earlier, that I just wanted to kind of, you know, we were talking earlier about people who kind of want to shy away from the personal brand, like, well, let's just leave me out of it. I'm not really that tight, right that personality, bigger than life, I never wanted to be an actor, I don't want to be I value my privacy, you know, those kinds of statements that we hear a lot? Can you speak to what might be a good strategy for somebody who, you know, really does know that they need to develop a personal brand. But they don't feel like, you know, they have that X factor, you know, star quality that would make them a good, you know, larger than life personality. What are some ways, you know, whether it's exercises or their pathways or platforms, or things that they can kind of do that might help them be successful?

Lauren  

 Yeah, really good question, in reality, everyone already has a personal brand. So even if you're working on or not, you have a brand it just depends on how much love you're giving it, and how much attention you're giving it, and how much you are living your brand. And not everybody needs to have that huge out there brand it doesn't, it's more important that you have something that's authentic. And honestly, you then having this fake, make believe persona that's out there. In fact, that's almost the antithesis of having a good personal brand, as Fred and I just wrote an article about how you cannot fake it till you make it. But just, especially in this day and age, it's just not worth even trying, you need to be new. And trying to be like the next Tony Robbins, or the next Oprah Winfrey or whatever, it just, there's no such thing as the, that's the person. Be yourself you know, it's really important. I guess the first step is understanding that there are little things you can do like what we talked about today, sitting down and working out, you know, what is the outcome that I want to deliver? How do I want to make people feel when they're around me? What sort of people do I want to attract into my life, let alone into my business and what do I want to be doing with my time. Asking yourself those sorts of deep questions not many people? Do we just go through life going, I've got to earn money, I'm gonna pay the bill. We're gonna get to this appointment on time, taking a step back and going, you know, why am I actually here and starting to ask yourself as difficult, which is just a really good step back to figure out your purpose in life and what and what you're here for. And it's a good point that you made there. You know, it's not always about you being the go to person that people are seeing out there. It's about being that consistent person that they know they can go to you. I once worked with a woman who and she's a lovely story when she was a little girl, her dad ran a milk round. So he was a milkman and he would drag the kids out of bed and then tonight, she felt was middle of the night, was still dark in the mornings. Her brothers and he hated us, and they'd go and help them with the milk round and it was cold. And it was weird to me early in the morning, and she really didn't like doing it. Her brothers were happy enough, but she was not happy to do it but she loved it when they got home, because they got to do something that she really enjoyed and that was counting the money. This is back in the days where people used to put money inside the empty bottles, before delivery and so on and she would love the sound of the money. She had like a little slot thing that she put the money down, it made a noise and she loved the smell of the coins and the sound of them and she just loved that part of it and surprise, surprise when she grew up, she became an accountant. So she was still working with money, right but what she discovered was she didn't like the way that she worked for really big accounting firms and she didn't like the way that they treated their staff and there was a lot of ill health and bad mental health situations and so on. And she actually suffered quite badly with her health, and ran away from that business and discovered what she wanted to do with her life. She always thought it was being an accountant, but as it turned out, is now workplace wellness consultant. So she's seen how the drive for money and that passion for just earning money can actually eat away at you, and not be very good for your mental health and your physical health. So we rebranded her business, she now has called wildfire business consulting, she burns away those old ways of thinking about earning money, and reignite the passion for nurturing people in your business and so on. So, she's doing things and she loves what she does, and she's fired and she'd like an accountant, she's not exciting. You know, she's not the out there person, but she's growing a really respectable brand that people love and they're getting her to come into their workplaces. And she's creating amazing change and it came right back from what she's really passionate about. And it's, you know, helping people understand that they can live a life and earn money, but not burn themselves out at the same time. 

Zahra  

I love that. That's such good advice for all of us here. 

Lauren  

You know, I work with people a lot and they're in chairs, you know, it's not an easy process to look at your brand, from a personal point of view and take a step away from what you're doing on a day to day basis and go, why am I here and start asking those questions. It's really important.

Zahra  

So okay, I keep thinking I'm gonna end this with the rapid fire. Somebody else lost, I promise. So I want to, I want to talk, have that conversation because, you know, I'm one of the things, you're like you said, it isn't easy. And you've got to eat Oh, it sounds easy. It sounds easy enough, right? You're brand new, you got to know who you are, what you do, who you do it for why it matters to them, right? Sounds easy but then sludging through the data, going through the emotions and thinking, asking the big questions, and, you know, diving deeper and deep drilling down into the why removing all the inconsistencies until you arrive at absolute truth, right? It's a much harder, you know, you know, seemingly easy, but it's never, you know, what did they say clear as mud, right and so, that can be a bit of a process. And I think it's interesting, because there seems to be kind of a debate in our world in our realm, where, you know, branding, is it something that you outsource, or something that you bring in house? And you have, you know, and so I don't know, what your what's your thoughts on it, and if you have a different opinion, I would love to hear it. You know, for me, I think they're, we work very collaboratively collaboratively with brands, because we may be the expert in branding, but we'll never be an expert in your brand, the way you are, right, there's an expertise to your profession you spent, you know, and so. But there's the need for both right, in my opinion, where, when even for us, as a brand new agency, we have to get outside help for the brand, because there's a myopia that happens when you're in the brand, that you just you need to have that person, you know, we can preach all day, don't get too close to your you know, and then you know, it's not your baby, but it is your baby. And so it's just it's impossible to remove all your biases as the person who is the artist, the maker, the creator, the visionary, you know, the person with all their chips in, but then also you can't abdicate the role completely to someone else. Because then you lose the authenticity right and so what are your thoughts on that and where do you stand on the big debate I want.

Lauren  

It's a really good question, I think with personal branding, it's very, very easy, I think you would struggle to work on your personal brand on your own. That myopia that you have, when you're working on a business brand is involved when you're working on your own brand, because you can't get outside your own brand. You can't get outside your own body, it's really hard to put yourself in other person's shoes and look at from the outside in. I have the luxury of standing on the outside of people's brands, and looking at them from that direction, I can get away I don't have to sleep inside their mind. You know, I don't have what I call that anybody should he committee, you know, all those voices have opened up and so and I myself used a consultant or a number of consultants to help me create my personal brand so I could I could get on your fire. I mean, obviously the answer I'd love to give us write my book, read my book, and it gives you all the steps and it does it gives you all the steps and lots of examples and case studies and all those amazing brands stories but heard someone that doesn't need to be a specialist is someone that you trust to be a business coach to be a life coach because it's somebody you really trust. Just to sit there and go hey, what about this question, have you thought about that and there's lots of questions I ask in my book, there's actually a series of five questions you can ask to really find your brand True North. And if you can get someone else to really push you on this, you can get some really awesome, phenomenal answers out of yourself that you never even knew were actually there. It's very cool.

Zahra  

Yeah and I think that's, I love that you that you said that and it must be so difficult because at least with a business, when you're making these observations about what's happening with the brand, you know, you can still offend, but it's a little bit harder, because there's, there's a separation there. But when you're when you're looking at your identity and who you are, and asking those tough questions and making those observations, I can imagine it's hard to see what someone you know, a different reality than you have right. So I think that's super interesting and, you know, I'm gonna say it right now, like, you need to get the book anyways. Because you may not, I always say this, like, you may never be an accountant and you should never try to if that's not your profession, but you need to at least be knowledgeable enough in the area to be helpful to your health to help them help you to then be able to ask good questions to be able to not stare blankly when they're giving you a report, you know, you got to be familiar with it in a way, you know, maybe not the expert and I would never do my own books. But you know, having somebody who, you know, having a base knowledge going into something like that is always definitely good. All right so, are you ready for the rapid fire questions?

Lauren  

Absolutely.

Zahra  

Okay, so, really quickly, dream vacation.

Lauren  

Ah, just come back from six weeks in Mexico and I'd go back there in a heartbeat. It was brilliant.

Zahra  

Yes, what is one habit that boosts your confidence? 

Lauren  

Going to the gym every morning and making sure I can finish even though I'm in my 50s

Zahra  

I love it, must be spot in Australia.

Lauren  

Ah, definitely climbing the bridge in Sydney.

Zahra  

Amazing. Okay, last question. since you're an author, what book are you reading right now? What is your book recommendation?

Lauren  

I've just ordered actually Rocket Fuel, which is on its way to me, so I can read it over Christmas. So I'm looking forward to that one. 

Zahra  

I love it. Lauren, thank you so much for joining me today. So how do we get in touch with you and how do we get your book, Finding Your Brand True North?

Lauren  

Really easy. It's on Amazon, you can download as an ebook or paperback. You can get it stick right on it and so on just virtually online, Lauren Clemett. Go into Amazon type in Finding Your Brand True North Lauren Clemett and you'll find my books, you'll find me all over Google. And I've got loads of stuff, there's a LinkedIn newsletter that comes out every week. So you're welcome to go and have a look at that as well.

Zahra  

Fantastic and for those of you guys who don't write that, that's okay. It's all going to be linked up for you in the show notes, her book is a click away. Lauren, thank you so much for joining me. I had a blast talking with you there's so much knowledge I feel like we could have done this another three hours easily.

Lauren  

Fabulous. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Zahra  

Well, take care. We'll see you guys next episode.