Branding in Medicine

 Zahra   

should be able to do it too, right? Yep. Okay, so welcome, everybody to another episode of the brand collaborative podcast. I am so excited to have Michal with us today. I really love the idea of talking about brands, specifically throughout industries because I think it's so important to take a look at that. And Michal is comes to us from the healthcare industry and so this is a very unique perspective. And there's a lot of things shifting in this industry right now, ever since COVID, healthcare has kind of become a focal point. So I'm really excited to talk to you today, Michal, welcome and thank you so much for joining me today.  

Michal   

Well, thank you for having me Zahra. I'm excited to dig in with you. 

Zahra   

So for those of you guys who have not yet met Michal, I'm going to just read a little bit about her. So Michal Waechtner earned her master's of science in healthcare administration from Texas State University and has nearly two decades of healthcare leadership. She is a small business development and marketing consultant and founded Waechtner Consulting in 2017. Th strategic planning marketing position or for strategy and consumer engagement, Waechtner Consulting Group helps optimize new and established medical practices to grow patient and procedural volume. In addition to her client obligations, Michal is a member of several professional organizations of Board of Trustees for the Texas State University Development Foundation, chair of the Development Foundation board development committee, the founder of San Antonio's Liaison League and a longtime Chair of the American Cancer Society's Ranch Chic Fashion Show. In her personal time, she enjoys spending time with her three children traveling, cooking and connecting with family and friends, we got to talk about your fashion show later. That might be a coffee date, but I would love hear. So busy busy lady. So aside from all of that, I just want to say that I have watched you work with clients over the years, and I think you do a tremendous job coaching and guiding clients through the process, even through the Navo program that you run with launching entrepreneurs, I what I love about the way you approach developing these businesses, is that you take that bird's eye view, and you can see that overall look of what that brand is going to look like. And then you can strategically execute Okay, well, if this is where we're going, this and this, and this is what needs to get done. And you just have that ability to create that focus and clarity for you know, your clients, whether they're through your consulting group, or whether you're volunteering, running a mentorship program, I've always loved that about you been dying to get you on the show, I'm really excited that you're here. Okay, so I want to start off talking a little bit about developing your business and like that greater business model, because I think sometimes, when we, for the most part, a lot of us have revised our definition of what branding is. But some of us still get a little stuck when it comes to how branding functions. So we still think of brand as an idea of perception, which is absolutely true. So we evolved that definition from just a standard logo and colors to you know, that perception that you have as an organization. But sometimes we get a little lost in that because it's a very nebulous definition. And it says okay, well, if this is who I am, or how I want to be perceived, then what does my business have to look like, in order to be perceived in that way? So like, if, you know, just like humans, if I want to be perceived as educated, how do I need to speak? You know, if I want to be perceived as healthy, how do I need to look right? And so and how do I need to act and behave so that that's how the world perceives me so that I am, I do become an authentic representation of how I would like to be received. So tell me about how, what that looks like in your industry, and kind of how you go about that.  

Michal   

Yeah, and I really appreciate looking at it from that bird's eye view, because I feel like the brand of a business is personified in a lot of ways. And so like you said, you know, how do I want to be perceived? What's my reputation in the community? I feel like it's much more than just brand colors and fonts and design elements, you know, etc. I feel like especially for physicians, there's a need to take a step back and I shared this with the startup group as well. It's like, begin with the end in mind, who do I want to be when I grow up and what does that look like and that will help you create a comprehensive business development strategy. And then under that business development strategy to me is, you know, the different strategic elements like marketing, referral, outreach, community engagement, patient experience, and so fleshing each one of those out, and identifying what tactics we need to pursue is really helps us get back to the initial who do we want to be. So there's a lot of nuance and healthcare branding that may look different than I think it does in other industries.  

Zahra   

Yeah, let's talk about that because I love the way you put that when you say, like, who do I want to be when I grew up, it's fun, but it's also very true. We talk about like the visioning and like, creating that aspirational idea of what you're striving to be. And that does look different in the healthcare field, and I think a lot of kickback. So like when we have people who come to us with a medical practice, and you know, they think a lot of times that they need marketing help, which they do, but the real trouble is, right, it starts with the brand, if we don't have clarity on those pieces. And the pushback I hear is that there's no point in branding me, my brand is my specialty, right? I'm a pediatrician, I'm a podiatrist, I'm a dentist, and so on for anybody who has teeth. And so like that is the extent of the depth they need to take into consideration when it comes to their brand. So talk to me about your thoughts on that how you approached that, like, what would you say to somebody or maybe what you have since the sales call that comes from that perspective?  

Michal   

Yeah, well, I mean, to that point, there's a lot of dentists out there, right? So how are you going to set yourself apart from the other dentists that are in your market, in your geography in your subspecialty? And I think that, you know, your initial comment of I need marketing, I think, you know, physicians, we joke that, you know, med school is not business school. And so they come out, you know, knowing that they need to do a lot of these things, but it's not their area of expertise, nor does it need to be, they need to have the right team to be able to build the foundation around them, right. So I think, you know, physicians can be reluctant to, quote, unquote, sell themselves, because they feel like they are physicians, they are benevolent, they have taken the Hippocratic Oath, they are to care for people and not, you know, become marketing experts. And they're totally right and our slogan is like, we take care of our physicians so that they can take care of their patients. So this is not the piece that they really need to be worrying about but to just say, I need to be marketing as a standalone, I don't think is the most comprehensive way to approach it. I think you really have to consider like all those things that we're talking about who your consumer is, what your demographic looks like, what your areas of expertise are and then you know, kind of building around that.  So getting physicians comfortable with differentiating themselves and credentialing themselves and growing their practice and developing their practice, instead of selling it is kind of the route that we take, we really try to be more relational and create long term relationships in the community, both with patients and with referring physician partners. And so I think that has a big impact on what the brand looks like. Who are they most interested in attracting, if their referrals are largely physician driven, then that's a different demographic than if their referrals are largely consumer driven. And they have more, you know, consumers have more choice in choosing them or if they're managed care, or commercial insurance driven, that looks different. And then, you know, I think if you and I were partnering on a client, we would think really long term and say, what do we want this to grow into? Are we going to be statewide? Are we going to be national? Do we want to develop an E-commerce arm and start selling products, you know, that all will play into how we started out the gate, then will be dynamic, and it may change over time. But it at least sets you up to have the flexibility to adapt to that kind of growth.  

Zahra   

Yeah, and I just hit a point because I love that you brought that up about the different arms. I think it's really important because the world is changing. And more and more I feel like humans become overwhelmed by the amount of information that we're required to have on hand. And so more and more we're looking for guides, you know, I have a business coach that I subscribe to and and he's, you know, he sells courses and he says, you know, the tough thing is, is that nobody wants to buy courses, because education is boring. But everybody does it because they feel so overwhelmed and they just need that guide to guide them through the process. And so it's becoming very similar with healthcare, you know, like, with all the information out there, one minute, you know, coffee is great for you, the next day, it'll kill, you know, web lines, okay, but then it's not you, there's just so much stuff out there. And so more and more depending on what it is, whether you're trying to manage a chronic illness, or whether you're trying to like raise healthy kids, whatever it is that you're trying to do, there's so much conflicting information out there. But the only place we have, like, people feel that they have to get that information is still predominantly online through gurus because you got 15 minutes with a doctor, and they're not going to go through the deep dive of options with you, right. And so, but that's beginning to change a lot and what we're seeing, as far as how healthcare is approach, and how doctors are presenting themselves, as building communities, building, you know, pieces of resource resources, whether that's education, or just like you said, products. Like, if I had a suggestion box, for my pediatrician who I already love, it would be, it would be great if your website had a cool link for great, highly recommended educational toys or safe nursery products, or, you know, the bottle she recommends, or, you know, things like that, because I trust her so much, that I would just buy that. Regardless and doesn't matter to me that she has an affiliate or whatever for that. I wouldn't even shop Price Shopper, it'd be the I would just say, Hey, this is what she recommends. I trust her. You know, and that would be a big value for me, right to get guidance and things like that. And we're, I think we're seeing that more and more. So what do you think about the new things that doctors are having to consider as they build their practices and it's not just, if you love me, tell your friends, how does that changing for you guys? What are you seeing in your industry?  

Michal   

Yeah, so I mean, if you think about, you know, the traditional medical model from, you know, years ago, physicians didn't have to promote themselves, they didn't have to have a good reputation, or a good bedside manner, or necessarily a good quality of care, because there were fewer of them, you know, the options were much more limited. And, and can, patients really had this ultimate trust for, you know, medical providers and I think fast forward to today, we've got a much more savvy consumer, we've got a much more convenient society. So you know, people are looking for quick and fast and easy. And so you have to appeal to that in a lot of ways. And I heard somewhere that, clients, consumers, patients, people will trust what they see on social media over even word of mouth from a trusted friend these days. So you have to be really careful with what you're putting out into the ether, because it will stick with the practice, it will stick with the physician, and consumers are really looking at that to make their health care decisions. And it may, depending on the specialty, you know, an ideal patient visit may look like 15 minutes to someone and ideal patient visit to someone else may look like 45 minutes. And so how do you build your structure around that and link that into your messaging and your service offering so that you're, you know, appealing to the right person. 

Zahra   

Yeah, I really love that I was just to your point, this is an example. I recently met well, you know, with a company and they do this kind of direct care, and it's all you know, all in one, unlimited visits, and this and that and it's additional the out of pocket. It's a monthly subscription fee, basically, you know, above and beyond the what the insurance covers. And for me, because I have a chronic illness, my husband's a chronic illness like, that sounds fantastic, because I'm always looking for someone who has a plan for me in mind. Because I feel like, every time I see my doctor, every once a year, he's forgotten everything that we talked about, and I have to keep reminding him No, no, I remember we tried that last year, it didn't work. What's next, and there's just like, we're not getting anywhere, you know, because I get and, but and so for me and my family that sounded great. And I was talking to people about it, you know, family members who have diabetes like Oh, that's fantastic. But then like, you know, my nephew who's a young man who will only go to the doctor if his head's gaping, opens and why would I pay so you know, when I already have insurance. And so just to your point, like, there, there are consumer groups who highly value certain things and then there's others who may be, you know we always talk about that when we're developing our products and marketing campaigns is kind of like, not just who needs you, but who desires you most who finds the most value in what you do because that's going to be not just where price isn't going to be an issue, but where the referrals are going to come from, like, where the brand loyalty comes from. 

Michal   

Yeah, well, and just to expand on that practice, as an example so there's, you know, another trend in healthcare right now is the move to direct care, predominantly direct primary care, but there are some specialties that are moving to direct care too. So what that means is, it's a cash based model, and it's completely independent of traditional insurance coverage. So talk about an informed consumer, right, like, that's all consumer driven, they are, you know, referring self referring, they are word of mouth referring their friends, they are employers that are becoming, you know, plan owners for their employees. And so that looks much different than the traditional physician on the corner who serves the whole community, and there's no other option. And just to kind of go down the branding route with that client that we have talked about is, you know, if they ultimately develop other service lines under their primary direct care practice, how do you create brand that is recognizable, but unique for each of those different service lines, so that to the consumer, if they see those different messages in the market, they're able to tie them back to one company. 

Zahra   

Able to tie back to a company, but also understand why they don't already have this, like, No, you don't already have, this is a different thing, right? That what you're using, this is a supplement or this goes together and this doesn't, because as consumers, we are left to self select, often, without all the support that we need. And so having that, you know, what I think is interesting, though, is, as you know, since we're kind of going down this rabbit hole of the direct care, I think, you know, one of the things that is different to your point about the different segments, and what you need to focus on, when you're doing something that's subscription based, whether it's direct care, or, you know, online membership, or a gym membership, or whatever most people spend all of their money on getting new sales, all of their campaign efforts are to get more people in, but really where the bulk of it needs to be spent is in that nurture sequence. Because people will stop they you get them to make the impulse buy, but then if they don't use it, and get enough use out of it, that they see their value, they're gonna stop and they're gonna stop two or three months in, and so your attrition rate goes through the roof. And so if you have a really good campaign, to make sure that people are getting their money's worth, they know how to use, you know, we see. So we own a marketing software, and we see it all the time, like, we have to make sure that people know we haven't a daily email that goes out to them their first 10 days, if they buy the software, hey, today's the day that we hook up your emails, and we download your list, here's how you do it, we have it on the university, but we have to also go in and email them and remind them, because we got to make sure that they're using all the different pieces, so that it's worth it to them and like that value. But again, if it's you know, a Medicaid doctor who's walk in it's just covered by insurance, totally different strategy, you know, about what they're doing. And so how do you go in and kind of navigate that as a consultant to kind of triage, you know, for lack of a better term? What were those, it's a perfect triage. 

Michal   

So you to your point, recidivism is important so it costs a lot less to keep the patients that you have than it does to attract new patients. And so anytime that I onboard a patient, those are the kinds of questions that we ask is, what's the ROI to your practice for one patient for one procedure for, you know, whatever their services, basically. And then, you know, where are you now in terms of patient volume and where do you hope to be. What's the sustainable level week over week, month over month, you know, that will tell us the rate at which we need to grow. Because, and the business development doesn't end when the physician is at capacity, right? So the strategies just change when they're seeing as many patients as they can possibly see, then we need to think about patient experience. And we need to think about throughput and we need to think about revenue cycle, you know that it doesn't just end. It's not something that you can do in the short term and expect long term results. You adapt your strategy, but you don't just put it down. I think one of the things I was thinking about when you were talking is narrowing your focus. So I have had clients come to me with three different brands, four different taglines, five different slogans, three mission statements, and they're trying to get at the same singular product. They don't want to leave anything out, so they want to look comprehensive, and say, I do this too and I do that too. And I didn't do this too, but I really try to work with them, as I'm sure you do to to narrow it down, what's the very top level look like of the service that you're providing, and then put that front and center, we can differentiate you on the back end. But, you know, your advice is gold, of putting what you do in the name of your company and I think that's something that we all not only in healthcare, but business owners struggle with, because they don't want to limit themselves, they want to tell everybody all the things that they can do. But we really need to high level it and then, you know, dig into the details on the backside. 

Zahra   

I think when we when we look at branding, one of the things that we talked about is like, what is it that you do like, what is your ethos? What transformation are you promised like, what's that brand promise. And when we look at that, and I and I wonder what your what your take on that is and how it gets cluttered, so quickly in the medical practice, specifically. But you know, we always say, because there's a big confusion, I don't know, if it's true, you know, we see it in a lot of our industries, because we do a lot of product base and so the more products you add, the more confusing and convoluted it gets. And people confuse creating recognition for a product, versus creating recognition for the brand so it would be like Apple trying to make technology, you know, like the thing and how many, I don't know gigawatts their stuff can hold and what their memory is, right? Because those are all the things that they offer and making the watch or the iPad part of the brand, but it isn't, it's a product that they sell. But the ethos of the brand is to think differently, right? That's the ethos, that's the spirit with I think Apple, I think whitespace however, I want to write it clear space, creativity, style that's the focal point. And then everything that they execute, has to check all those boxes has to check that box if it doesn't, it doesn't belong in the brand. But I think sometimes, you know, we're like, brand owners get kind of afraid, right to, to focus on that, what is the most important thing I do. Not all the things I do but if I had to sum it up, you know, what is that most important thing that I do and then how I do it is through product or service ABCDEFG right. And I think that maybe with doctors, and I don't know what your thought about this is, or with medical practices, it can get hairy really fast, too, because you have principals coming in and out all the time, you know, doctors leaving practices, new doctors coming on and so that kind of focal point, does it get blurry? Do you have a recommendation of how often as a group, you guys sit down and kind of revisit that focal point? How does that work in your industry? 

Michal   

Yeah, so we would do an initial onboarding with a client to get our current state and that current state very quickly changes, because of the work that we're doing, because of you know, our initial strategies that we prioritize. So we typically schedule check ins or update meetings with our clients every four weeks. And during those meetings, we download everything that we're working on, if the priorities have changed, if there's a new opportunity that we need to, you know, look toward and then as milestones happen in practice, I think it's helpful to do that as well. So every six months, every year, you know, did we add a new physician? Did we add a new service? Did we add a new laser? Because I think those things are kind of those drops in the bucket and at the end of the day, does that bucket get too full, and we need to take some things out. You don't want to become to diluted and trying to be too many things to too many people. It's much better to be a mile deep and an inch wide right than a mile wide and an inch deep. Because it's too much to keep up with and it's going to dilute the messaging in the market. So we try to advise clients in that route too to think where do you want to be in five years? Where do you want to be in 10 years? What's your exit strategy, your succession plan because that can all tie into what we're doing today. Today, we're laying those stepping stones to get there. But I think that you know, I think sometimes there's the misconception that a brand you know going back to the semantics of marketing versus business development versus branding. You know, they're all very different things and a brand being the logo being the tagline being the header doesn't have to be really, really complex, it can be really simple, and be consistent and be recognizable. So it doesn't have to be, you know, something that is technically complicated. You want to make sure... 

Zahra   

The coat of arms. 

Michal   

Yeah, and I think, you know, sometimes that's the perception is I need something that's, you know, its degree and really, you just need something that carries your vibe carries your culture, you know, through in the graphics of it. And then just really consistent, put it everywhere, use it everywhere, saturate the market with it, and it'll become, your Kleenex to your tissue paper, right. And, you know, being careful that you're not mimicking another brand that people identify with, because if they see your practice, and it reminds them of to your point, Apple or whatever, and that's contradictory to you, that could be a challenge too. 

Zahra   

Well, it instantly makes you the challenger so you're the not Apple. If you're kind of like Apple, but not then why wouldn't they just get Apple right? The only answer to that question is because you're much cheaper, which you never want. That kind of, but what I saw before well, there's two questions, I'm tripping over myself, because there's two questions I really want to ask you. One is I want to go back to something that you said about being you know, a mile deep and an inch wide, versus the other way around, and how doing it the reverse way, creates a lot of excess, you know, and waste in marketing in, you know, because it's true, the more segments are trying to reach the more money, the more times you're dividing your marketing, you know, budget and all of that. But talking about the even like, this is what I love, where your practice and your consulting firm comes in, because you're looking at the marketing, but you're also looking at it from a business development aspect as well, looking at it and saying, because also, it's not cost effective to be running all this equipment, all the salaries, all these types of you know, beds, and exam rooms or whatever, talk about that, and like how you walk people through kind of understanding because you've got a brand standard, if we're going to execute 12 different things, we need to execute them all to the same standard, because you'll only be recognized for the least of them and they go like kind of understanding how you prioritize that with your clients. 

Michal   

Exactly and I've so I've had clients that want to be all things to all people, and they want to serve patients in all markets, and all specialties with all equipment and that's a really grand, you know, drive. But what it looks like in reality is a physician being in three locations, five days a week, so his staff rarely know where he is, he's got a lot of windshield time, which is not billable for a physician. So it's not efficient and then the way that you'll see that manifest on the front end is in poor patient reviews, or referrals, not converting into visits. And you know, then we know that we have some volume conversion issues, and we have some operational issues that we need to look at and maybe we need to take a step back in gaining new volume and you know, redirect the volume that we're getting. And maybe we go from three locations down to two and we can gain some efficiencies there. Maybe we bring on another physician and they're solely in charge of one of those locations. You know, those are things that I think we encourage our clients to think about and, you know, for example, if it's a practice, who has a lot of different vendors that are involved, be it for products or equipment or you know, services that they provide, making sure that we're not diluting the practice brand by layering on all of those external vendor brands if that makes sense. 

Zahra   

Yeah, I've seen that like, bio vitamins, but it's plastered everywhere and I don't know the name of my doctor, but I know that because I see those billboards everywhere. 

Michal   

Yeah, exactly so you know, it carries over and that's why I really consider business development to look different than marketing because it includes that operational component as well. You want your you know, external, you know, quote, unquote marketing to be really strong. So starting with your brand, building out your toolkit there and then that leads you into your collateral toolkit and your online presence and, you know, website, social media, you know, digital optimization, all the things, but if you don't have that initial brand kit solid, you don't know who you are in any of those other spaces. 

Zahra   

So I have a question for you, if you were compared, so as far as like your business, your business development model, what is the difference? Like if you were talking to somebody who was a newbie just out of med school about to start their practice, what are the two or three things you would recommend them focusing on, versus someone who is, you know, starting to scale, like they have a solid practice or starting to, like get their feet under them, versus someone who's looking at legacy, you know, I'm looking to retire out, sell out, you know, I'm done at my age. 

Michal   

So with brand new clients, or clients that are new to the market, maybe they've practiced somewhere else, and they've, you know, recently moved to the area, we typically start with that current state. You know, do you have a logo? Do you have a brand kit? Do you have collateral meaning rack cards, referral pads, brochure? You know, what does that toolkit look like business cards? Do you have practices that are already referring to you? So the marketing piece is important in building that foundation then we look at what are those existing relationships. Who are your competitors, who's referring to you who are your prospects that you would like to build relationships with and that's really, you know, kind of the first step because that's what's going to get their volume to an initial state that's sustainable. And then we can branch into these other strategies if it's one of the key things and building those relationships is making sure that that communication loop is strong. So if a new physician refers over a patient, we want to make sure that they're getting feedback back that the patient gets in quickly that there aren't barriers to care, you know, making sure that that experience is as positive as possible and then, you know, for a more established physician, we're thinking about scalability. So are we bringing in other physicians to the practice, are we bringing in higher priced modalities potentially. If it's a physician who's more, you know, near the end of their career, we're thinking about passive income strategies? So, you know, is there a buying opportunity is there does the office have real estate available, where we can do move into some tenant income. You know, things like that, I think, you know, having, and that's where I was saying the strategy changes, it looks different, but you don't take your foot off the gas. And most physician practices, and this is not a criticism, they start off with a really small team and so it's usually like the physician, and one staff member, or maybe it's a spouse who's helping out, you know, at the front desk, and so they're wearing a lot of hats. And that can dilute any one of those areas that they're working on, if you're doing the marketing, but you're also doing the billing, but you're also doing the patient intake, that's really challenging, right. So most of them don't need a full time business development or marketing person, but they need someone who's working X number of hours a week, and is full time advocating for them, you know, out in the community, looking for opportunities, looking for networking, you know, engagements. And so I think that's where it's kind of a, you know, it's a symbiotic relationship between us and our clients is, we just create this scenario where it's saving them money, we're growing their business, you know, we are very adaptable and malleable. And then, you know, having been in the healthcare industry for as long as I have in this area, having the connections to other resources that they may need. If I feel that they need a brand expert, I'm going to call you if I feel that they need a, you know, financial advisor, I've got resources for that. And so it's really just becoming a valuable resource to the client for whatever helps build the health of their practice, right? Because if they do well, I do well, it's mutually beneficial. 

Zahra   

Another question, so you were talking about, like getting the help and not having a full time marketing. Talk to me a little bit about that, because one thing that we see that we've seen quite a few times working with people in the medical practice is that they recognize and they're not willing to do their own, you know, marketing, simply because I mean, they get the merge and then pass it out and stuff, but simply because they're in a different industry, they can just, like, take pictures of their customers, and post them everywhere. You know, like, there's parameters around that kind of stuff, and privacy and HIPAA and all that, you know, and so, what they end up doing is they end up hiring a firm that just does their social media, let's just stock photos, and maybe some PPC, and it just kind of runs on autopilot. And so they're really not sure what it's doing or if it's getting a return. Talk about that as a strategy versus like what you do, because I think it's really one of the things that I really love about how you approach it is you know, because it's very similar to what we do like in the product and And, you know, if we look at a company individually, because it's not always going to be social media and PPC, that is where the money should go. Sometimes, depending on your client, it may be community events, it may be referrals and affiliates, it may be, you know, setting up a booth somewhere, it may be, you know, a really good nurture sequence, it may be setting up, you know, consulting, you know, a blog, it may be a donation, it may be, you know, all kinds of different things that you could think of, but it's not always, you know, just, I'm gonna spend, you know, 5000, a month on PPC and another two grand, so that I get three posts a week on Instagram, you know, and so on, so forth. Talk about that, and like the things that you can know why it's so important to look at your company, as an entity, and not just like, well, so and so has billboards all over town, and PPC, and they make millions. So I must do that to make my millions and I've been doing that, but I don't have millions. And I don't understand why I'm not making millions, and he's making millions and it feels like we're doing the same thing.  

Michal   

Yeah. So I mean, I think, you know, the genesis of my company really started in healthcare administration, and it started in, you know, the referral strategy piece. So we love working with agencies, you know, partnering with agencies, on client's behalf. So I just become the liaison between the agency and the practice, right but I'm, you know, deferring to the agency's higher skill level and, you know, greater depth in terms of graphics, and that kind of stuff, we've taken over the last couple of years, we've diversified and we can do a lot of that in house now. But I think the benefit of having both engaged with the practice is sometimes the physician will seek out an agency, and they reached this level of stagnation. So the physician is waiting for the agency to push, you know, creative and design and, you know, different strategies. And the agency is waiting for the physician to provide creative and content and specials, and, you know, and so nobody's really doing anything, because they're each waiting for the other. And so we kind of get in the middle and make everybody more productive, you know, we will pull the information out of the physician, we will push it to the marketing company, and vice versa. You know, I think the that stagnation occurs, because each is waiting for the other one. And so it's not a proactive relationship, it's more of a reactive why I've been here all along, you haven't asked me to do anything, so I haven't delivered. And that's not how we work, we are very proactive, and we try to be, you know, five steps ahead of what our clients are needing. And to your point, you know, that canned content is just not going to hit the algorithms, it's not going to get the engagement from, you know, the consumers, it's not really personifying your practice in the way that you want it to. And the savvy consumer can tell the difference between canned content and creative, right. And so we try to encourage our physicians to bring value in what we put out and so that may be some education one day, that may be a resource for something, you know, that is helpful. The next day, it may be, you know, highlighting the different services that they offer, if they have had some new milestone at the practice, and then some personal content and some original content in there. We want to know, like, who the physician is, and what do they like to do in their free time because, you know, newsflash, physicians do have some free time, right, they have personal lives, whether it seems like it or not. And so all of that just, you know, endears your patients, your clients, your, your, you know, the people that are engaging with your content to you, even the fallible things, you know, physicians make mistakes, you know, patients will have a bad experience, if you can address those things head on, and a really genuine, compassionate, empathetic way, you're still you know, you're gonna save your brand, you're gonna save your reputation, if you completely ignore them, if you delete them, if you become negative, well, that's gonna go a totally different direction, you know, so we always try to stay ahead of those and advise our clients, and how to deal with those kinds of things, too. 

Zahra   

So, at some point, I will let you go, I promise. I'm just I'm loving this conversation. I think there's so much here. So like, just kind of wrap it up. It's funny that you said that about savvy consumers know, they do no and what's crazy so though, for a while there, there was this trend for agencies like you know, it was all about the niche until like marketing agencies were niching down and say, Well, all we do is healthcare marketing and all we do and so we ran into some people that were shopping because they were using, you know, an all marketing or all healthcare marketing agency. And they were using the same stock photos, the same copy the same hashtag in the same market in the San Antonio market. And they were trying to get me but and it's like, well, you've just, you've zeroed out because everyone, if you're using the exact same strategies, you know, you're zeroing out, it's really not effective. Like, yes, you're putting things out there, but it's cancelling itself out with, you know, and so, you know, it's funny that you said that, that it really does happen more often than you would think. And so just kind of speaking to that bespoke, you know, an intentional strategy of okay for you and your business, there's got to be somebody who is coming up with the ideas for what marketing looks like for your business. These are good ideas, these are the good things because if I'm a digital marketing, if I'm a social media agency, then I'm gonna sell you social media. And that's the answer for everybody, right because that's what I saw and that's all that I sell. But having, you know, an agency, or consulting group that will tell you, you know, what, I don't, we do that all the time. Like, we don't do commercials, we don't have the capacity for it and but we refer that out, we have a company that we use, love, and we're like, look what you really need as a hate video. We don't do those here but we know who does, we'll get to that warm introduction. But having somebody you know, like, I think, when it comes to marketing, some some of the things that we forget about is we have a lot of executors and we hire the executors of people to put up the posts, whether that's, you know, an intern in house, or whether it's an agency, that we miss that cmo role, you know, that person who says for your practice, we need to be focused on referrals, we need to be focused on community events, we need to be focused on whatever right that is. And, and in so doing, we're going to make these three bomb campaigns and these campaigns are going to feature this and this is how they're going to run, it's going to be social, they're gonna sign up, they're gonna get emails once a day. And this is what it's gonna say, and this is what we're going to ask them to do at the end, you know, and then we have the executors go and say, here's all the social, go post that up from these days to these days, you know, we're gonna be here at this community event here, you know, here's all the stuff we need for you to promote it out. But I think that in marketing, especially these days, that role that person that fractional CMO, or that that Consulting Group, or that agency that sits down with you and plans, what works for your business is so often neglected, that it does come down to like what you said, this kind of automatic, you know, and we do that and I know you do that with your clients, too. Every year we sit down, whether it's a two or three day business retreat, or if you're a solopreneur, we can knock it out in a day, you know, what are we doing? You know, what's the plan? What are we promoting? What are some key things you want to leverage into? What are we trying to accomplish? What are the metrics that tell us how we're doing throughout the year? So we know we need to shift? And I think that that's really important and I love that you brought that up because it's funny, we we've done a few, you know, throughout the episodes, and I don't think anybody has brought that up that kind of missing our arm have. I know what I want and I have an executor but I have no one developing the how. 

Michal   

Exactly. Yeah and we so I've always found that interesting about agency that, you know, like what you said about representing two practices in the same specialty in the same market and using the same content, how are we differentiating ourselves in this scenario? And so one of the things that we do differently, and that's not to fall agencies for taking on clients in the same specialty, you know, I think it can be done for sure. We will not take on two physicians in the same specialty in the same geographic area because that would be a conflict we feel like we we would be it would be a conflict to represent two physicians that are basically in competition with each other. If they have very distinct markets, and they won't have overlap in their targets, then you know, we would consider it to be okay. But there still is ethical decisions when it comes to what strategies to execute for which client. So to your point, we're not going to do the same things for every client, because we have advertised in a digital publication once does not mean that that we're going to advocate for that for all of our clients, right like we do believe primarily in an organic strategy, you may talk to another, you know, marketing person, social media specialist who believes in a completely paid strategy. And that's okay, if paid is the direction that they want to go, like you said, we're going to reach out to someone with expertise in depth in that area and we're going to liaison with that person on a client's behalf. So it's not a one size fits all, it has to be customized, you know, from the beginning, you know, and I think business and healthcare have a lot of overlap, and they have a lot of similarities. But there's a lot of nuance in healthcare that an agency without that expertise may not appreciate. So, if we're talking about medical terminology that's being used, you know, there's limitations on what we can and cannot publish, there's limitations, on what words we can and cannot use legally, you know, and so, you know, getting into some of that detail is really important. So having another set of eyes, that can help walk through that can be really helpful. And, you know, like a CMO, like a chief marketing officer, somebody that's making more strategic decisions about what's being put out on behalf of the practice. 

Zahra   

I mean, someone like guiding the ship, and then having, you know, looking for that specialty of people who know how to execute like, pursuant to the brand. So okay, I have had so much fun with you, is there any, are there any final thoughts that you want to share with us before we go, we have this like, fun little lightning round, where I just like, ask you some some personal questions. But before we get to that, if you're down to do it, any final thoughts you want to share with people who are listening, that, you know, have a practice and are kind of struggling with this. I'm still trying to catch my breath from COVID. I feel like I'm running in reactionary mode. I don't know, I'm still trying to survive. I'm not even I feel overwhelmed by my place in, you know, the market, what would you say in closing to them? 

Michal   

Yeah, I think, you know, the other trend in healthcare that we didn't touch on as much is that that we've stayed in this hybrid environment and so considering that we're not only seeing patients in person, a lot of providers now are seeing patients in person and online and so how are things translating on both of those platforms? If you've created your in person brand, is it carrying over to digital or are we missing the mark by that piece getting messy? You know, where are your 12 visits taking place? What's going on in the background, you know, all of those things are really important and things that we now have to think about that, you know, five years ago, we didn't as much. I think, you know, one of the things to just think about is taking a step back and looking at where your resources are being used most and where the resources are most productive for your practice. And if that needs some realignment, if that means, you know, outsourcing some of the things that are much more difficult for you, then that's probably the best decision and now is a great time to start thinking about what took place in 2023 right and what's going to take place in 2024? How do we want it to look different, you know, coming off of COVID, we don't have as much of a trendline, as we did before, because we had several years that were so different. And so we can't compare necessarily volume year over year or, you know, social media year over year, because there were a lot of limiting factors. But I think, you know, now we're starting to get into, you know, where we can look at more of that historical. So, you know, looking at 2023 and seeing where the successes were in the failures were may tell you what you need to do next year, and what resources do you need to add to your toolkit. 

Zahra   

I love that. I love that you brought up just simple reflection you know, we do that at the end of every year at the end of every campaign. You know what went right, what didn't go right. What can we think and what do we need to scrap and what do we need to double down on because it did phenomenally well then, you know, and just kind of looking at all the different pieces.  

Michal   

I think when you're in the middle of it, it's so hard to take a step out, you know, to your point, is it a two day retreat? Do you need to go to a different environment? Do you need to have a whiteboard session, like it's hard in the day to day when things are so busy to take that bird's eye view and see what's really going on, you know, but creating that space is important, which is something that has been challenging for me but I'm working to improve and I really advocate that my clients do too. 

Zahra   

Yeah, I love doing that. It was something that I started early on only because I'm so easily distracted and I'm so OCD about stuff, we worked in an office, we work from home, which are all the different places. But if there was stuff to do, like, whether it was laundry, or just a sidebar conversation happening with other employees, I could very easily get distracted, I could not sit in a room that has a sack of my papers, or to do tasks like my computer by email pinging my sales board in the background, you know, and unbiasedly an emotionally evaluate my business because it was whatever was in front of my face was going to kind of muddy the water, you know, and so for me getting just completely away from it has been so helpful to super flex, you know, just that I take my numbers and the things that I need.  

Michal   

Yeah well, when we're when I have facilitated the startup groups, that's what we, that's the guidance that we give the new business owners is, think about where your time is spent, and where it would be best for you to, you know, delegate, outsource, do it yourself all the different options that you have, you know, delete it. Because there may be things you're doing that you don't need to be, or there may be things that you're doing that are spending a lot of time and a lot of energy for you to learn because you think you have to do it yourself. Well, that's probably something that you should outsource, you know, and keep the things that are that come easily to you and have the biggest return for your business. So I think it's all about building your team. I don't think any of it is done individually, and it's just getting the right components together. 

Zahra   

100 percent. Alright, so are you ready for a little rapid fire?  

Michal   

Maybe.  

Zahra   

We're gonna try it. Alright, favorite book, or podcasts that you recently are into. 

Michal   

So my favorite podcast right now is The Journey to Wholeness with Suzanne Stabile. She's an author that I have followed for the last couple of years adnd she is a teacher of the Enneagram and anyone who is close to me knows that I fully geek out on this on a regular basis, so that's primarily what I'm listening to. 

Zahra   

I'm gonna check out. Your most favorite past vacation? 

Michal   

Oh, I would say well, most recently, or the one that comes to mind is last year in August, my husband and I took our first big trip without the kids, we went to Cosimo for my 40th birthday. And so it was, you know, a much needed adult to reprieve after lots of years of little kids. And we had a great time, and there was plenty of activity for him to do and there was plenty of lounging and reading for me to do so it was it worked out. 

Zahra   

Awesome. Where is your dream vacation next? What is the next big place you want to go? 

Michal   

Something that I've seen recently is was about the Camino de Santiago, which is the 900 Kilometer walk that a lot of people from all over the world go and do as a pilgrimage. And so my husband and I were actually talking about it last night, and that is on the bucket list for both of us for sure. 

Zahra   

That's the one that goes to Spain, right? The one in Europe, because yeah, I think I heard Amy Porterfield talking about it in a podcast that I was saying to you, maybe I don't know if some somebody one of the podcast I listened to, was talking about that. That was a great experience. That's really cool. Who is someone so you're a mentor, obviously, for a lot of new businesses. So tell me someone that you admire, or are you following the space and who has been a mentor for you? 

Michal   

Oh, that's a good question and I was naive, I think when I started my business, because I don't think business coaching was as much of a phenomenon as it is now. And so having someone that you can bounce ideas off of, and strategize with, you know, it really wasn't a thing and so we kind of felt like we had to go it alone, which is a challenge. But I don't think I can't think of one person that comes to mind but you know, I have gleaned little bits of admiration from a lot of the different women in NAWBO. Because I think they bring different strengths and you know, kind of pulling each one of those some are fiercely independent, some are wonderful leaders, others are bootstrapping it and making their way through the world's you know, and I think all of those are like that entrepreneurial spirit and, you know, bringing each of those elements and kind of learning from everybody has been really beneficial for me. 

Zahra   

I love that, final question is, if you had one piece of advice to give to a new entrepreneur, what would it be? 

Michal   

If I had one piece of advice to give to a new entrepreneur, it would be to find your tribe. I think the people that you surround yourself with, either through emotional and spiritual connections, or business resources, or mentors, like you said, I think having all of those people around you is absolutely paramount to your success. 

Zahra   

And I 100% agree, I had an experience, which I think we've all been to at some point where it was literally do or die, you know, and you kind of have that moment of just, I can just burn it all down and walk away, right, go get a job somewhere. And it was literally my tribe that picked me up off the floor was like, that's not what you're getting, you're gonna get up and you're gonna get to work and here's how you're gonna do it, you know. From the tribe that you know, your people, you've got the ones that kick you in the butt, the other ones that give you a big hug the other ones that have been where you want to be and can show you, you know, they've got their bread crumbs to leave and so my business would not be here today, but for my tribe. 

Michal   

Yeah, and I think a lot of us came, particularly if you're, if you are the business owner, you may have been driven to that path by a traumatic experience, or a big change, or a vocation change, you know, something that was the catalyst for you to go that route. And so, you know, I think there's healing from that and there's moving away from that, and, and learning from that. So, you know, I appreciate more now than I ever did when I was young, in my career, the benefit of surrounding yourself with those people. 

Zahra   

You learn so much faster. Well, Michal, this has been a pleasure, I am so excited for this to go live, because I know people are gonna get so much value. And I think that it was really good timing, because it's really been pressed upon me lately, after having conversations with you and meeting with a few more people in the medical field. You know, we kind of took for granted we thought, well, COVID over their worries are through now. But it just you know, really understanding that there's so many practices that are their whole world upside down, you know, everything's changed and navigating. There's such a need for some guidance, and some clarity so I cannot wait for them to get a hold of this episode and hear what you have to say and really give them some sure footing. For those anybody in the audience who might be listening who wants to get a hold of you, how do we do that? Where do we go? How do we connect with you? We'll also going to link it in all the show notes. So if you are not in a place where you can write down in your driving, don't do anything dangerous we're gonna have it linked in the show notes go back and click on it later. 

Michal   

Yeah, so well, first of all, I want to thank you for having me on because you know that I admire you so much, and you do such great work and I've learned a lot from you. So I am honored that you you know, we made this connection and I thank you for the time today. In terms of finding me my website is Waechtner Consulting Group, I'm on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn, same name, or Michal Waechtner on LinkedIn. 

Zahra   

Well, thank you so much, and we will see everybody next episode.  

Michal   

Thanks, Zarah.