Teacher Burnout Crisis with Dr. Allison Hitchens

00:00:14.649 --> 00:00:19.069
We are officially recording on Riverside. Hello, and welcome to the Balancing

00:00:19.069 --> 00:00:21.589
Act podcast. We are nothing if not resilient.

00:00:22.049 --> 00:00:26.229
Yes, we are. That's right. Tenacious. I mean, aren't teachers the most resilient

00:00:26.229 --> 00:00:29.629
people on the planet as it is? I mean. Absolutely. Of course.

00:00:30.409 --> 00:00:35.509
I am Jamie Wonko. I'm here with Mr. Joseph Vitale. Hello, Mr. Vitale. How are you?

00:00:35.869 --> 00:00:39.349
I am great. We also have our guest with us already in the room.

00:00:39.509 --> 00:00:41.009
We're recording in a new platform.

00:00:41.889 --> 00:00:45.389
So those of you who've dealt with our streaming issues and our freezing,

00:00:45.629 --> 00:00:49.249
thank you very much but we're trying Riverside and it doesn't let us keep our

00:00:49.249 --> 00:00:51.909
guests off stage we're trying to figure that out so Allison,

00:00:52.069 --> 00:00:53.509
welcome, thanks a lot for joining us today,

00:00:54.209 --> 00:00:58.109
yeah, I'm happy to be here thank you so much Allison, it's so nice to meet you.

00:00:59.490 --> 00:01:05.730
You as well. All right. So I'm going to, you know, just say that whenever this

00:01:05.730 --> 00:01:10.470
episode does come out, the white elephant in the room is that we are in the

00:01:10.470 --> 00:01:12.510
middle of a blizzard here in New Jersey.

00:01:12.850 --> 00:01:18.830
Yes, we are. And we are, I'm just watching the chunks and chunks of snow fall

00:01:18.830 --> 00:01:21.550
from the roof. It is absolutely insane.

00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:25.930
Recently, we had referenced the blizzard of 1996. And now here we are in the

00:01:25.930 --> 00:01:29.670
blizzard of 2026. and it is really something else.

00:01:29.870 --> 00:01:32.930
But have no fear. We are here on the podcast.

00:01:33.250 --> 00:01:37.650
And of course, like all of our other episodes, season three is brought to you

00:01:37.650 --> 00:01:40.450
by our presenting sponsor, Teacher's Insurance Plan.

00:01:40.730 --> 00:01:44.590
Check out their website for more information. Give them a call to get a quote.

00:01:45.050 --> 00:01:49.510
Teacher's Insurance Plan, auto insurance that brings exclusive educator savings

00:01:49.510 --> 00:01:54.230
and exceptional customer care to New Jersey and Pennsylvania educational employees.

00:01:54.530 --> 00:01:56.450
That is damn right.

00:01:57.090 --> 00:02:01.630
All right. So thank you again for joining us. I just got done with a shift of

00:02:01.630 --> 00:02:02.490
digging out my neighbors.

00:02:03.390 --> 00:02:08.470
This is just awful. I want to say so many curse words, but I know that this

00:02:08.470 --> 00:02:11.230
gets, then that becomes a problem on the YouTubes.

00:02:11.750 --> 00:02:15.270
So we want to make sure that we keep it PG for the kids.

00:02:16.030 --> 00:02:17.930
But yeah, it's just, it's awful.

00:02:18.790 --> 00:02:22.410
My favorite part of winter is when it's over. And I thought maybe we were getting

00:02:22.410 --> 00:02:26.610
through this, but unfortunately, it just did not work.

00:02:27.090 --> 00:02:30.170
Um, so yeah, we're really excited to have you today. Uh,

00:02:30.490 --> 00:02:34.930
and shout out to my lovely God daughter, who is, uh, an elementary school teacher

00:02:34.930 --> 00:02:40.050
down, um, in a suburb of Tampa who got us in touch with you and talked about

00:02:40.050 --> 00:02:42.690
you and all the things that you've been working on.

00:02:42.790 --> 00:02:46.590
Um, and again, just recently getting your, uh, doctorate as well.

00:02:46.690 --> 00:02:50.310
Congratulations. I know that that process can be both stressful,

00:02:50.850 --> 00:02:54.750
time consuming, and also very rewarding. So congratulations to you.

00:02:55.330 --> 00:02:57.870
Yes. Yes. all of those things. Thank you.

00:02:59.949 --> 00:03:05.089
You're welcome. So one of the things that we definitely want to talk to you

00:03:05.089 --> 00:03:08.849
about is the idea of teacher burnout, right?

00:03:08.969 --> 00:03:11.309
It's something that we talk about on our show very often.

00:03:11.989 --> 00:03:15.829
It's something that Jamie and I experience where we get a case of the can't-don't-want-tos,

00:03:15.829 --> 00:03:19.709
and we don't want to go through all of the usual rigmarole.

00:03:20.289 --> 00:03:25.189
And I'd love to talk to you first. What led you to kind of land on this as a

00:03:25.189 --> 00:03:28.849
topic of study for your doctoral degree?

00:03:29.489 --> 00:03:32.589
Well, sure. Hold on. Before you talk about that, can you just hear a little

00:03:32.589 --> 00:03:34.429
bit about your background before that?

00:03:34.649 --> 00:03:37.609
Oh, that would also be. That's what I was going to use to lead into that. Yeah.

00:03:38.089 --> 00:03:42.769
Yeah, sure. Go right ahead. So I was a teacher in Maine for four years.

00:03:43.249 --> 00:03:50.129
I taught in a rural school district and kind of the center of Maine and very

00:03:50.129 --> 00:03:56.509
high poverty, again, rural poverty. So very different than what Tampa experience is.

00:03:56.629 --> 00:04:02.349
So it's been a very different experience in my doctorate and the work I've done here.

00:04:02.489 --> 00:04:06.709
But I taught for four years, two different schools, three years at one, one at another.

00:04:07.869 --> 00:04:13.049
So in my time as a teacher, I did one full year before the pandemic.

00:04:13.169 --> 00:04:16.249
And then my second year was when the pandemic hit.

00:04:16.369 --> 00:04:19.909
And that group was like my dream group of students. They were incredible.

00:04:20.289 --> 00:04:25.789
It killed me to separate from them. And after that, nothing was really the same.

00:04:26.069 --> 00:04:30.509
We had administration shifts, really tough times.

00:04:32.070 --> 00:04:36.710
Change for me in the school. And I felt very unsupported to the point where

00:04:36.710 --> 00:04:42.890
I like sought help from the assistant superintendent and getting kind of trying

00:04:42.890 --> 00:04:45.590
to get some help in that situation. And it just didn't go well.

00:04:45.750 --> 00:04:50.450
And then teaching just never really had the same look for me after the pandemic

00:04:50.450 --> 00:04:52.410
because everything changed.

00:04:52.550 --> 00:04:56.490
I mean, you guys have taught a while, so you know that that really was a big

00:04:56.490 --> 00:05:00.450
marker of change. And for me, I only got one full year before the pandemic hit.

00:05:00.630 --> 00:05:05.610
And then that whole experience of hybrid teaching, virtual teaching,

00:05:05.610 --> 00:05:08.930
and then coming back with all the new protocols and everything,

00:05:09.090 --> 00:05:11.930
it was just so different and so exhausting.

00:05:12.350 --> 00:05:16.890
And the kids had so much at that point because they were traumatized by it too.

00:05:17.610 --> 00:05:20.330
And principals didn't know what to do. I mean, everybody said,

00:05:20.430 --> 00:05:24.010
we're building the plane as we fly it. And that was just exhausting.

00:05:24.610 --> 00:05:28.110
That is an expression. That's what Joe is on here at the Boundstack Podcast.

00:05:28.110 --> 00:05:31.990
Use that. That's one of Joe's top 10 flavors of word choice. Yeah.

00:05:32.350 --> 00:05:36.030
Especially from when I was doing technology stuff in the district that I worked

00:05:36.030 --> 00:05:38.130
in. That was like our model of technology.

00:05:38.310 --> 00:05:41.730
Like, let's build the plane as we fly it. Let's give out the device first and

00:05:41.730 --> 00:05:45.890
then figure it out as we go, which is a goddamn disaster.

00:05:46.250 --> 00:05:49.630
So sorry. And so it felt like that. It felt like a disaster all the time.

00:05:49.690 --> 00:05:53.950
And every single day it was just exhausting and emotionally exhausting,

00:05:54.130 --> 00:05:54.790
physically exhausting.

00:05:55.030 --> 00:05:56.950
It was just a really exhausting career.

00:05:57.370 --> 00:05:59.690
And I was getting my master's while I was teaching.

00:06:01.190 --> 00:06:05.530
We did like a cohort model in the district that I helped start where we had

00:06:05.530 --> 00:06:07.410
15 teachers doing it at the same time.

00:06:07.490 --> 00:06:10.810
So that was a really nice way to like kind of bond together.

00:06:10.990 --> 00:06:15.230
But then with COVID, everything kind of disbanded and we were all virtual again.

00:06:15.430 --> 00:06:17.430
So that cohesion in the district,

00:06:18.179 --> 00:06:22.919
then kind of fizzled out again. So a lot of that camaraderie that I had my first

00:06:22.919 --> 00:06:25.559
year and part of my second year really went away.

00:06:26.099 --> 00:06:30.879
And so I was still this novice teacher navigating the really stressful career,

00:06:31.239 --> 00:06:33.719
COVID, a master's, and all these things.

00:06:33.779 --> 00:06:36.719
And I was just feeling this accumulation of stuff.

00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:43.139
And I took a research course as part of my master's and never intended to do a PhD.

00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:47.759
I was like now I'm going to teach and then I'll figure out I didn't know what

00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.499
I wanted to do but I didn't think I'd stay in teaching forever.

00:06:51.799 --> 00:06:55.819
But I didn't think I would only make it four years I really didn't think that,

00:06:56.339 --> 00:07:01.339
so during my third year was when I kind of started questioning things and that

00:07:01.339 --> 00:07:05.219
research course in my master's I was like wow this is really fun and I feel

00:07:05.219 --> 00:07:09.339
like I can actually make some change by doing this and doing these projects

00:07:09.339 --> 00:07:11.919
and talking to teachers And it's not all just numbers.

00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:16.559
I learned about qualitative research where you talk to people and do interviews

00:07:16.559 --> 00:07:19.739
and things like that and tell stories rather than just look at numbers.

00:07:19.779 --> 00:07:25.099
Because I feel like education is really overwhelmed with numbers and simplified

00:07:25.099 --> 00:07:29.159
down to numbers when really there's a richer experience all the time.

00:07:29.999 --> 00:07:34.539
So that kind of led me into looking at what could I do other than teach?

00:07:35.599 --> 00:07:38.539
And can I keep going to school? Because I really like school.

00:07:38.799 --> 00:07:42.519
A lot of people who become teachers have a fascination with learning,

00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.479
and I didn't want to stop learning.

00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.239
So I just was like, I think I'll go back to school and just keep.

00:07:48.336 --> 00:07:54.516
Pursuing something. And rough, I got into the University of South Florida and

00:07:54.516 --> 00:07:55.956
decided to move down here.

00:07:56.176 --> 00:08:00.996
And it was a really great experience, wonderful opportunity.

00:08:01.016 --> 00:08:04.476
I got to do research and teach and supervise interns.

00:08:04.996 --> 00:08:09.996
So it's been a really rich three and a half, almost four years now of being

00:08:09.996 --> 00:08:16.256
down here and just learning and continuing to see all the things that education can be.

00:08:16.256 --> 00:08:20.836
But there's a lot of work that needs to be done to make it a sustainable field to work in.

00:08:23.382 --> 00:08:27.102
Yeah, that's something that we have been talking about. Just recently,

00:08:27.342 --> 00:08:32.362
we met with a group of novice teachers down at the College of New Jersey.

00:08:32.982 --> 00:08:36.782
Shout out to all of those teachers that were there. And I want to say again,

00:08:36.902 --> 00:08:40.342
which we did talk about on our on our social media, like what an impressive

00:08:40.342 --> 00:08:43.542
group of young people they were.

00:08:44.222 --> 00:08:47.282
And the fact that they were, you know, we did a little session with them about

00:08:47.282 --> 00:08:50.942
like, you know, you signed up for this. So what's it going to be like?

00:08:51.342 --> 00:08:53.962
You know, give them the real of what it's like in the classroom.

00:08:54.182 --> 00:08:59.102
And it really was an awesome, awesome little event for us because we put a bunch

00:08:59.102 --> 00:09:03.682
of stuff up on the board and talked about like, what are the things that they are having issue with?

00:09:03.942 --> 00:09:08.242
And what are, you know, some of the trends in education that they're seeing?

00:09:09.242 --> 00:09:12.222
And I think what was one of the interesting things that we asked about how they

00:09:12.222 --> 00:09:13.702
can set better boundaries for themselves.

00:09:13.842 --> 00:09:18.222
And some of the answers that they came up with were, I wouldn't necessarily

00:09:18.222 --> 00:09:24.282
say shocking, but I didn't expect to hear what I heard from a group of soon-to-be

00:09:24.282 --> 00:09:25.522
in-the-classroom teachers.

00:09:26.562 --> 00:09:31.402
For example, the immediate answer we got was, leave it your contract time.

00:09:31.502 --> 00:09:35.622
And we were like, oh, you can do that? Because that's something that when we

00:09:35.622 --> 00:09:41.082
graduated a thousand years ago, you didn't do that because people stayed late.

00:09:41.082 --> 00:09:46.602
They volunteered for things because teaching is a, you know,

00:09:46.662 --> 00:09:51.082
a job that is basically funded through unpaid overtime, right?

00:09:51.542 --> 00:09:54.662
So I think setting those better boundaries is a good thing. So maybe the next

00:09:54.662 --> 00:10:00.142
crop of teachers are learning that lesson where we, Jamie and I, did not. So...

00:10:01.282 --> 00:10:07.922
Yeah. And I think, too, the age difference is smaller now between the teachers that are experienced.

00:10:08.202 --> 00:10:12.322
We've kind of touched on this a little bit before as well. When I first started

00:10:12.322 --> 00:10:16.342
teaching, there were a ton of teachers that were, if I was 22,

00:10:16.642 --> 00:10:19.222
they were like in their 60s, like getting ready to go.

00:10:19.822 --> 00:10:26.582
And now, like for Joe and I in our 40s, like we're considered the most senior teachers.

00:10:26.742 --> 00:10:30.682
So that sort of age divide isn't quite as large.

00:10:31.042 --> 00:10:34.922
So there's some differences in, you know, some of the kids are kind of being

00:10:34.922 --> 00:10:38.722
raised or taught by people that have a little bit of better sense of setting boundaries.

00:10:38.842 --> 00:10:43.662
Or they've just been burned so badly to the point where, you know, they are.

00:10:43.782 --> 00:10:46.842
It's hard. It's like you don't want to say. I don't want to say to any of them.

00:10:46.842 --> 00:10:49.802
I mean, the kids were so shiny and they were so interested and they were so engaged.

00:10:49.882 --> 00:10:53.162
And I would never want to say to any of them, don't be a teacher. Right.

00:10:54.082 --> 00:10:58.482
And you know that they're going to do fieldwork in schools where people are

00:10:58.482 --> 00:11:00.722
saying to them, like, why are you doing this?

00:11:01.082 --> 00:11:06.402
You know, you know that they are up against that. And we hear it from our own

00:11:06.402 --> 00:11:07.682
colleagues all the time.

00:11:07.822 --> 00:11:12.262
Like, oh, you're not in New Jersey. We have a tier system. So if you're tier

00:11:12.262 --> 00:11:16.882
one, you can retire at 55. If you're younger, you can't retire until you're 65.

00:11:17.282 --> 00:11:21.322
So that has changed. And so there's this divide between, you know,

00:11:21.442 --> 00:11:24.242
oh, you'll never make it. You're not going to be able to last.

00:11:24.382 --> 00:11:29.122
I couldn't do it. And that to me is, you can't say to someone that chose this

00:11:29.122 --> 00:11:31.482
career for the kids, right?

00:11:32.182 --> 00:11:35.322
Why would you do this? But you know that they're up against that and they hear

00:11:35.322 --> 00:11:38.582
that all the time. And that, you know, is really heartbreaking because you don't want to,

00:11:39.272 --> 00:11:44.672
I don't want to yuck somebody's yum, you know, that's not okay in any direction.

00:11:44.712 --> 00:11:51.072
So what are some of the things that you're seeing with the students at your college?

00:11:51.732 --> 00:11:56.972
Very similar. A lot of them come in hearing. So we start out,

00:11:57.392 --> 00:12:01.152
like they start fieldwork very early and they do it for two straight years.

00:12:01.892 --> 00:12:06.412
They're in the classroom. They have some of the highest contact hours of like

00:12:06.412 --> 00:12:10.532
anywhere I've ever seen. And I had very low expectations as a student teacher

00:12:10.532 --> 00:12:12.092
when I was studying in Maine.

00:12:12.292 --> 00:12:16.632
I had very minimal hours. So they really know what they're getting themselves

00:12:16.632 --> 00:12:22.452
into by the time they're at even level two in our program, end of their junior year.

00:12:23.212 --> 00:12:26.792
So they know. And I'm sorry to interrupt. Can you explain what those contact

00:12:26.792 --> 00:12:28.892
hours look like for a student in your program?

00:12:29.692 --> 00:12:34.172
Yeah. So in level one, they go in one day a week and they're there the full day.

00:12:34.552 --> 00:12:37.672
And they just kind of shadow. but they start

00:12:37.672 --> 00:12:40.772
we don't ever do like a baptism by fire

00:12:40.772 --> 00:12:43.752
which happens when they enter the profession

00:12:43.752 --> 00:12:47.092
so we don't do that in the field when we're supervising

00:12:47.092 --> 00:12:52.352
them we do a very scaffolded approach at usf and so they enter in and they have

00:12:52.352 --> 00:12:57.992
a teacher who has had to complete clinical educator training and they're interested

00:12:57.992 --> 00:13:02.772
in being a mentor teacher and that typically goes very well Like we have very

00:13:02.772 --> 00:13:05.292
involved mentor teachers.

00:13:05.692 --> 00:13:08.652
And so they're there for one day a week at level one, but it's a full day.

00:13:08.652 --> 00:13:13.612
So they see the whole range of the day. And I only have experience with elementary, by the way.

00:13:14.237 --> 00:13:19.057
But then level two, they move up to them. So those teachers at level one that

00:13:19.057 --> 00:13:22.217
want to be a mentor teacher have to go through some sort of training first before

00:13:22.217 --> 00:13:24.057
they're like, hey, you're paired up with a college student.

00:13:24.557 --> 00:13:26.437
Yes. Okay. Yes. And they have to volunteer.

00:13:26.957 --> 00:13:31.577
And we go in cohorts at schools. So a student isn't ever like at a school by themselves.

00:13:31.857 --> 00:13:35.757
There's usually eight at least at an elementary school. And they're all there

00:13:35.757 --> 00:13:37.977
together doing their student teaching.

00:13:38.517 --> 00:13:43.997
Yeah. So it's a very robust program. And it's very impressive, in my opinion.

00:13:45.517 --> 00:13:48.657
There are flaws, there are kinks in the system. We're always trying to work

00:13:48.657 --> 00:13:50.897
on it, but, well, I'm not affiliated anymore.

00:13:51.097 --> 00:13:55.877
But while I was there, it was very much a work in progress and lots of committed

00:13:55.877 --> 00:13:57.037
people trying to make it better.

00:13:57.337 --> 00:14:02.677
So level two, they go in just a different day of the week, but it's still a

00:14:02.677 --> 00:14:04.017
full day, same classroom.

00:14:05.737 --> 00:14:08.937
Then level three is their final year, usually.

00:14:09.557 --> 00:14:12.657
And so that starts in the fall, and they're there two days a week.

00:14:12.657 --> 00:14:15.857
And then the final level is full-time

00:14:15.857 --> 00:14:19.217
internship they're there monday through friday teacher contract

00:14:19.217 --> 00:14:22.377
hours um so they work up

00:14:22.377 --> 00:14:26.397
to their full-time status there um but

00:14:26.397 --> 00:14:30.457
they really get a lot of exposure throughout the program so they know by the

00:14:30.457 --> 00:14:34.397
time that they're in level three level four what they're getting into and so

00:14:34.397 --> 00:14:39.537
if they want out they usually would have done it already so the same conversation

00:14:39.537 --> 00:14:43.657
as you said jamie of like you don't want to shut them down because they know

00:14:43.657 --> 00:14:45.597
what they signed up for. They want to do this.

00:14:45.977 --> 00:14:51.037
But also keeping it realistic for them because I was always up front with my

00:14:51.037 --> 00:14:54.817
students and my interns of saying, I left because of burnout.

00:14:55.647 --> 00:14:59.447
And unrealistic expectations in the broken system of education.

00:14:59.647 --> 00:15:04.707
I left because of that. I'm not going to lie to them and tell them that it was

00:15:04.707 --> 00:15:06.707
any other reason really than that.

00:15:06.867 --> 00:15:09.107
I couldn't do it anymore after four years.

00:15:09.347 --> 00:15:15.347
And so I then explained to them, my job as a researcher and a teacher now is

00:15:15.347 --> 00:15:17.107
to help them not have that future,

00:15:17.347 --> 00:15:21.167
help them build their resources and their skills, especially

00:15:21.167 --> 00:15:25.507
their emotional strengths and resilience strategies

00:15:25.507 --> 00:15:28.887
and boundaries to not burn

00:15:28.887 --> 00:15:34.187
out and i like that you said that about the gap between the older and the younger

00:15:34.187 --> 00:15:38.947
teachers being smaller now because a lot of that is because so many teachers

00:15:38.947 --> 00:15:44.707
are leaving the field so early very few stay past five years and even fewer

00:15:44.707 --> 00:15:47.707
like of that most of them leave after one year,

00:15:48.467 --> 00:15:55.767
which is just so absurd and so sad because that you invest four years usually

00:15:55.767 --> 00:15:59.087
in a college and spend thousands of dollars, come out with loans,

00:15:59.287 --> 00:16:01.507
go in, and they just can't do it.

00:16:01.867 --> 00:16:06.627
What do you think the percentage is of, and I know you might not have these

00:16:06.627 --> 00:16:09.947
numbers, but like of the students that graduate, that go into the classroom,

00:16:10.127 --> 00:16:13.947
how many of them after five years percentage-wise do you think are no longer in the profession?

00:16:14.747 --> 00:16:19.327
So the research on this varies, but the study that I kind of cling to,

00:16:19.347 --> 00:16:21.887
it has it at about 50% attrition.

00:16:22.942 --> 00:16:25.482
And where was that study? Within the first five years. Where was that study?

00:16:25.602 --> 00:16:29.262
Is that nationwide or is that something in this specific area?

00:16:29.322 --> 00:16:29.662
It's in the United States.

00:16:30.062 --> 00:16:33.942
Yeah. I can probably find it. It's Ingersoll is the author.

00:16:34.522 --> 00:16:38.602
Ingersoll and Smith. There are some researchers who I cited a lot in my work.

00:16:38.882 --> 00:16:42.262
So they do a lot of attrition. If you wouldn't mind sharing that with us.

00:16:42.302 --> 00:16:45.342
Yeah, we can link it in the episode. So if people want to look at it, they can.

00:16:45.762 --> 00:16:49.982
That's an astounding number to me. Yeah. And that's the one that I really stuck

00:16:49.982 --> 00:16:53.702
into my research. It's an older study, and some people have found some flaws

00:16:53.702 --> 00:16:58.602
with it, but then other people have cited that work and kind of found it again.

00:17:00.002 --> 00:17:04.362
We don't like to admit that, but I believe that that's accurate.

00:17:04.742 --> 00:17:06.002
I believe it's accurate.

00:17:06.402 --> 00:17:09.522
And it also comes down to it depends on public versus private.

00:17:09.802 --> 00:17:11.962
It depends on elementary versus middle versus high.

00:17:12.282 --> 00:17:17.122
State to state varies. There's a lot of variables in there, but multiple times

00:17:17.122 --> 00:17:21.742
we've gotten a number close to 50%. So what do you think is the reason why,

00:17:21.882 --> 00:17:26.302
or what are some of the reasons why, that 50% are leaving?

00:17:29.762 --> 00:17:34.362
Honestly, I think there's a lack of systemic support for teachers.

00:17:34.562 --> 00:17:39.742
And I think that this doesn't just exist, so obviously with the word systemic,

00:17:40.704 --> 00:17:46.084
That's not just the school level or the district level or the state level or

00:17:46.084 --> 00:17:50.584
nationwide. It's all of those not really aligning and working together.

00:17:51.724 --> 00:17:57.644
Most issues that I see happen at the school level because the principal has

00:17:57.644 --> 00:18:03.384
such a big role in that and can control a lot of things and make some changes.

00:18:03.384 --> 00:18:08.304
It's just like how teachers have a curriculum. They have these things they need to do.

00:18:08.344 --> 00:18:12.004
But we differentiate and we change on the fly. to make things work for our kids.

00:18:12.484 --> 00:18:18.504
A lot of principals need to be willing and have the freedom to differentiate

00:18:18.504 --> 00:18:24.644
for what their teachers need and need to feel compelled to do that to keep their teachers there.

00:18:24.904 --> 00:18:29.604
And so part of my kind of closing statement in my dissertation was,

00:18:29.744 --> 00:18:32.844
how do we incentivize retention for principals?

00:18:33.124 --> 00:18:36.504
How do we make them want to keep their teachers in the school and make that

00:18:36.504 --> 00:18:40.984
a principal habit of checking on the teachers, making sure they keep them there.

00:18:41.244 --> 00:18:46.064
Because not only is it costly for the district, but it's costly for the principal.

00:18:46.464 --> 00:18:53.664
It's exhausting to constantly be redefining your teams and training new people, looking for mentors.

00:18:53.884 --> 00:18:58.024
And then like you've talked about, Jamie, not having very many experienced teachers

00:18:58.024 --> 00:19:00.864
to help bring these new teachers in.

00:19:01.024 --> 00:19:06.404
It just creates this ongoing revolving door is another term that's in a lot of literature.

00:19:07.284 --> 00:19:12.544
And a green workforce where there's just constantly not a lot of people who

00:19:12.544 --> 00:19:16.524
know what they're doing, not comfortable, not confident in their skills.

00:19:16.704 --> 00:19:18.724
And then things change again.

00:19:19.104 --> 00:19:21.764
Every time they start to get comfortable, we have new curriculum,

00:19:21.944 --> 00:19:25.084
new assessments, and it's just this constant change.

00:19:25.244 --> 00:19:29.764
And that's a big reason why people leave is they never get comfortable.

00:19:30.585 --> 00:19:37.625
Yeah. And it's something we've also spoken about before is this idea that teachers

00:19:37.625 --> 00:19:42.105
are lesser than and they aren't as they aren't experts.

00:19:42.105 --> 00:19:46.905
So we talk about, you know, this idea that, well, I'm not an expert and I'm

00:19:46.905 --> 00:19:49.445
not and you are, you know, I would say you are an expert.

00:19:49.645 --> 00:19:55.465
And so I think that that also can be quite damaging in your first however many

00:19:55.465 --> 00:19:59.685
years or even after 10 years of being in your profession, because there's this

00:19:59.685 --> 00:20:03.205
sort of cultural idea that you're you don't really know,

00:20:03.305 --> 00:20:06.645
like you're just a teacher, you know.

00:20:06.645 --> 00:20:12.185
And so that kind of gets into people's psyche of, well, maybe I don't know and

00:20:12.185 --> 00:20:15.905
someone knows better than rather than like really holding them up to,

00:20:16.125 --> 00:20:19.865
no, you are trained in this. You're an expert in this. You know what to do.

00:20:19.985 --> 00:20:23.025
And also trusting them to make those decisions.

00:20:23.985 --> 00:20:27.665
And that, I think, plays with a lot of people's emotions as well.

00:20:27.805 --> 00:20:31.665
And, yeah, of course, ties into principals, vice principals,

00:20:32.005 --> 00:20:33.225
any kind of administrators.

00:20:33.425 --> 00:20:39.365
I mean, our school district, for example, is gigantic. and we have supervisors that are doing.

00:20:40.326 --> 00:20:45.126
Like the task list of what they're responsible for under their name would just

00:20:45.126 --> 00:20:48.566
make anyone just kind of chuckle. Like it's just unreasonable.

00:20:49.066 --> 00:20:52.726
And so the system is almost set up for certain people.

00:20:52.886 --> 00:20:59.226
I hate to say to fail, but, you know, it can be really hard to make connections

00:20:59.226 --> 00:21:02.106
in that way. And that's tough on everybody.

00:21:02.386 --> 00:21:04.606
And going back to this system idea.

00:21:04.906 --> 00:21:10.086
And so one approach that people have tried over and over is mentoring and induction.

00:21:10.326 --> 00:21:13.406
To try and keep new teachers in the field. We've all heard the word induction

00:21:13.406 --> 00:21:18.666
and mentors and having somebody take you under their wing, whether it's formal or informal.

00:21:19.166 --> 00:21:23.646
And so part of my research was trying to figure out what are these formal and

00:21:23.646 --> 00:21:25.506
informal supports? How are they functioning?

00:21:26.206 --> 00:21:29.666
And what I kind of noticed was these mentors are overwhelmed.

00:21:29.946 --> 00:21:35.246
It's not a strategic program that sets the mentors up to succeed either,

00:21:35.246 --> 00:21:38.746
because they either have no training and mentoring and coaching.

00:21:38.966 --> 00:21:43.086
They don't have the time because their caseload, their students,

00:21:43.286 --> 00:21:45.406
nothing of theirs has been taken off their plate.

00:21:45.826 --> 00:21:49.446
Something is always being added. And that's the case for new teachers,

00:21:49.646 --> 00:21:53.066
veteran teachers, really teachers, their plates are always overflowing.

00:21:53.286 --> 00:21:56.866
And so for new teachers, one of the strategies I always think about is what

00:21:56.866 --> 00:22:01.846
can we take off their plate to kind of reduce that overwhelming shock when they

00:22:01.846 --> 00:22:05.566
enter the field as teachers, not just interns.

00:22:06.666 --> 00:22:09.826
What can we do to make it less intense when they start?

00:22:10.146 --> 00:22:13.686
Because you can slowly kind of add, kind of like exercising,

00:22:13.926 --> 00:22:18.246
like you need resistance training and you work up to the full capacity of something.

00:22:18.466 --> 00:22:22.986
And so with teaching your first year, you're assumed to be an expert and good to go.

00:22:23.126 --> 00:22:28.586
So you're given all the tasks and reducing that might help.

00:22:30.046 --> 00:22:34.146
We haven't really tried it because we don't know how. And so going back to the

00:22:34.146 --> 00:22:38.206
mentoring piece, sometimes it works when a mentor is really invested and has

00:22:38.206 --> 00:22:40.066
the time and the capacity to do that.

00:22:40.806 --> 00:22:45.806
But show me a lot of teachers who can do that and really mentor well.

00:22:46.526 --> 00:22:50.886
And every year can take these new teachers because you're going to have new

00:22:50.886 --> 00:22:56.086
teachers every year because of attrition and turnover. And so the mentoring

00:22:56.086 --> 00:23:00.806
piece is very popular, but it's not always very successful.

00:23:02.426 --> 00:23:06.626
Well, there are only, you know, if you think about it, I think about our building, right?

00:23:06.746 --> 00:23:10.906
There are only certain people you'd want mentoring as well.

00:23:11.126 --> 00:23:13.446
And sometimes it's personality.

00:23:13.846 --> 00:23:18.706
Sometimes it's basically their willingness and ability to be flexible.

00:23:18.886 --> 00:23:23.266
Or sometimes they're a, you know, Oscar the Grouch, and you really don't want

00:23:23.266 --> 00:23:29.626
that person training the next group of people. there is a huge...

00:23:31.018 --> 00:23:35.278
Amount of responsibility when one is working with a novice teacher,

00:23:35.918 --> 00:23:42.678
especially because it's not just about, you know, oh, teaching the curriculum in the ins and outs.

00:23:42.818 --> 00:23:47.038
There's a lot of, I think, emotional support as well that they're also trying to navigate.

00:23:47.078 --> 00:23:52.578
And some people don't have those tools in their toolbox to be able to emotionally

00:23:52.578 --> 00:23:57.958
support someone who maybe is experiencing something that to them isn't a big deal.

00:23:57.958 --> 00:24:01.398
But to the first year teacher that's experiencing it for the first time,

00:24:01.638 --> 00:24:06.278
it could be something that makes or breaks them wanting to stay in the profession or not.

00:24:08.278 --> 00:24:12.878
That's one of the challenging things about, and you spoke a little bit about,

00:24:12.998 --> 00:24:15.058
this is one of the things I definitely wanted to talk to you about was,

00:24:15.178 --> 00:24:20.438
you know, you used the term reality shock a lot to talk about the first year of teaching.

00:24:20.578 --> 00:24:23.758
And I remember that my first year of teaching was a reality shock for me.

00:24:25.558 --> 00:24:30.158
And I wanted to like, talk about like, where you, where and what do you see

00:24:30.158 --> 00:24:34.058
when you go and, you know, visit novice teachers in the classroom?

00:24:35.298 --> 00:24:39.318
So, again, reality shock is a term I borrow from other authors in the field.

00:24:39.498 --> 00:24:45.058
Some research I can also send you. But it's this concept of you enter teaching

00:24:45.058 --> 00:24:49.338
with this idea of what it's going to be. And a lot of that is interesting.

00:24:50.247 --> 00:24:53.827
Especially in the elementary realm, what your classroom is going to look like,

00:24:53.987 --> 00:24:56.327
the things you're going to buy for your students,

00:24:56.687 --> 00:24:59.807
the things you're going to make with them, and the really fun,

00:24:59.967 --> 00:25:05.067
creative, enjoyable parts, and those kind of happy ideas of how things are going

00:25:05.067 --> 00:25:07.927
to go, but also the amount of support you're going to have.

00:25:07.927 --> 00:25:13.347
And you have this ideal of somebody has my back because I just had this mentor

00:25:13.347 --> 00:25:18.767
teacher my entire time as an intern and I watched them navigate things.

00:25:18.767 --> 00:25:23.087
I saw them have their circle of people who helps them and I can do this.

00:25:23.207 --> 00:25:26.627
And so they see kind of this person who's built up their career.

00:25:27.587 --> 00:25:31.887
But then when the novice teacher enters, they often have a really hard time

00:25:31.887 --> 00:25:36.787
finding their people because those groups are already established.

00:25:36.927 --> 00:25:42.627
A lot of the times mentors are also burnt out and don't have the capacity to

00:25:42.627 --> 00:25:45.587
help them kind of navigate the social aspect of the school.

00:25:46.087 --> 00:25:48.947
And that emotional well-being suffers too.

00:25:49.207 --> 00:25:53.127
And so they have a lot of things that they were idealizing and thinking,

00:25:53.307 --> 00:25:54.527
this is how teaching is going to be.

00:25:54.727 --> 00:25:59.547
But when they get there, it's 10 times more overwhelming because you're on your own.

00:25:59.967 --> 00:26:03.867
You might be in a completely different school. Most likely you're in a new school

00:26:03.867 --> 00:26:06.127
that you've never been in with people you've never met.

00:26:06.567 --> 00:26:11.167
It's very rare that you're hired in the school you were an intern at for a year or two.

00:26:12.131 --> 00:26:16.971
And where we are, we are lucky that a lot of our partner schools hire our graduates.

00:26:17.431 --> 00:26:20.951
So they enter with this kind of familiarity with the school.

00:26:21.171 --> 00:26:25.231
And that's something I'd love to research more, too, is this idea of kind of

00:26:25.231 --> 00:26:28.691
continued partnerships with school. And you're more supported as you enter.

00:26:29.091 --> 00:26:32.311
Kind of the scaffolded approach again. But that's really rare,

00:26:32.571 --> 00:26:34.971
especially in smaller towns.

00:26:36.111 --> 00:26:39.831
And so when you enter, it's just so different from what you thought it was going

00:26:39.831 --> 00:26:42.551
to be. And it's not really that you're unprepared.

00:26:43.171 --> 00:26:48.391
It's more about the workload that's placed upon you, the emotional demand, the responsibility.

00:26:48.771 --> 00:26:54.531
And that emotional piece is what I kind of emphasize in my work and well-being. And so...

00:26:56.486 --> 00:27:00.806
You're doing emotional labor all day long. You're monitoring your emotions,

00:27:00.986 --> 00:27:03.066
your students' emotions, everybody in the building.

00:27:03.166 --> 00:27:07.066
You're trying to stay calm and be a role model for students.

00:27:07.066 --> 00:27:08.986
And that is exhausting work.

00:27:09.606 --> 00:27:12.746
And that's not something that's part of your job description.

00:27:12.746 --> 00:27:19.966
So this academic work that we assume is the bulk of what new teachers struggle

00:27:19.966 --> 00:27:21.546
with, that's often not the problem.

00:27:22.026 --> 00:27:25.766
A lot of teachers come in very prepared, very skilled.

00:27:26.226 --> 00:27:30.866
And the struggle really is that balance, those boundaries and having emotional

00:27:30.866 --> 00:27:37.426
well-being to manage behavior and danger and things that happen every day that

00:27:37.426 --> 00:27:40.406
people wouldn't believe you experience in the classroom.

00:27:40.406 --> 00:27:45.646
As I'm sure you two have gone through in your career of things that you would just,

00:27:46.526 --> 00:27:49.226
couldn't believe that came out of a student's mouth or you can't believe what

00:27:49.226 --> 00:27:54.466
they just told you happened at home and you're navigating those things and these

00:27:54.466 --> 00:28:00.726
22 23 year old students are not ready to do that and or they don't have experience

00:28:00.726 --> 00:28:02.826
because they were supported in doing that,

00:28:03.986 --> 00:28:05.206
in their internship.

00:28:05.586 --> 00:28:12.146
So I see that piece as more of a struggle than the professional ability,

00:28:12.346 --> 00:28:14.066
the technical work of being a teacher.

00:28:14.286 --> 00:28:21.746
It's more of the social, emotional, boundary setting, stress management that becomes the issue.

00:28:24.046 --> 00:28:27.006
Yeah, and the emotional competency of being able to,

00:28:27.246 --> 00:28:31.506
you know, you don't, we had a few years ago, We had some of our a couple of

00:28:31.506 --> 00:28:34.966
our counselors were doing some training with teachers and they gave us like

00:28:34.966 --> 00:28:37.426
the like the I know it has a name,

00:28:37.426 --> 00:28:42.666
but it was basically like a quiz of like your personal trauma experience. The ACEs.

00:28:44.369 --> 00:28:47.889
And yeah. And so, you know, it was like, are you a child of divorce?

00:28:48.189 --> 00:28:54.009
Have you ever seen? And so we kind of went through and we all had our own score.

00:28:55.089 --> 00:28:59.509
And this was I had been teaching at this point already probably 18 years,

00:28:59.769 --> 00:29:01.829
you know, a long time. I was a mom, three kids.

00:29:02.109 --> 00:29:06.009
So you think like, yeah, sure. Like I'm kind of worldly.

00:29:06.269 --> 00:29:13.229
I know, you know, and it was like so startling for like the whole group. We did it as a group.

00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:16.369
There was like 20 of us. And it really was pretty wild to see.

00:29:16.809 --> 00:29:22.689
And they kind of said to us, look, like the average student in this school has

00:29:22.689 --> 00:29:26.749
a score three times what you're looking at for yourself.

00:29:27.609 --> 00:29:35.389
And it really does put that in perspective when you realize like you, you know.

00:29:36.501 --> 00:29:39.821
Teachers love kids. So that's why they're doing it. And they're there for the kids.

00:29:39.961 --> 00:29:46.461
And you do get completely and totally emotionally wrapped up in what's going on.

00:29:46.561 --> 00:29:50.501
And they, especially some of them that are connecting with you and talking to

00:29:50.501 --> 00:29:54.761
you, and then you kind of, you know, it can be a lot.

00:29:54.881 --> 00:29:59.181
And so to, you know, especially different school environments at different ages

00:29:59.181 --> 00:30:00.541
and stages and things like that.

00:30:00.541 --> 00:30:06.181
So, yeah, that that that what you're saying really does strike a chord with

00:30:06.181 --> 00:30:12.041
me for sure, because it's it's a lot to navigate and impossible sometimes the

00:30:12.041 --> 00:30:13.841
feeling of it's impossible.

00:30:14.121 --> 00:30:19.741
And novice teachers don't have as much experience with leaving some of that

00:30:19.741 --> 00:30:25.301
at the door and navigating that where you have experience of this is something I can fix.

00:30:25.461 --> 00:30:29.281
This is something I can't fix and figuring out which things you can and can't.

00:30:29.281 --> 00:30:33.341
And during that first year, when you're already so overwhelmed by everything

00:30:33.341 --> 00:30:37.461
you have to do, then hearing these stories of what these kids are going through,

00:30:37.481 --> 00:30:43.661
because most teachers now are just living through horror stories often.

00:30:44.061 --> 00:30:49.181
And it's unreal. And trying to navigate that in your brain in real time and

00:30:49.181 --> 00:30:54.001
then go home and not think about it and come back ready for the next day is really challenging.

00:30:54.321 --> 00:30:56.261
It's such a challenge.

00:30:56.601 --> 00:31:00.721
Have you ever thought, I work in education. Why is finding a job so weirdly hard?

00:31:00.981 --> 00:31:04.561
Yeah, scrolling through random job boards where half the listings don't even

00:31:04.561 --> 00:31:06.361
make sense is not the vibe.

00:31:06.561 --> 00:31:09.661
That's why njschooljobs.com actually makes sense.

00:31:09.921 --> 00:31:13.401
It's a job board built specifically for New Jersey schools, public,

00:31:13.581 --> 00:31:15.361
private, charter, and parochial.

00:31:15.521 --> 00:31:18.761
Teachers, administrators, counselors, support staff, coaching opportunities.

00:31:18.761 --> 00:31:22.961
If your job involves a bell schedule, this site's for you. It's free for job success.

00:31:23.583 --> 00:31:27.603
You can upload your resume, set job alerts, and apply without jumping through hoops.

00:31:27.783 --> 00:31:32.903
Schools across New Jersey actively use njschooljobs.com, so these are real, current openings.

00:31:33.143 --> 00:31:37.363
They also host virtual job fairs, where you can connect with multiple districts

00:31:37.363 --> 00:31:39.543
online. No driving all over the state.

00:31:39.783 --> 00:31:43.863
Those are coming up soon, so check the link in our episode description to register.

00:31:44.163 --> 00:31:47.023
Head to njschooljobs.com.

00:31:48.723 --> 00:31:51.783
Every teacher knows that the first five minutes of class set

00:31:51.783 --> 00:31:55.203
the tone for everything that comes after lesson launchpad

00:31:55.203 --> 00:31:59.483
helps you nail those first five minutes without scrambling presentations change

00:31:59.483 --> 00:32:04.623
automatically timers start automatically music sets the mood agendas and reminders

00:32:04.623 --> 00:32:09.103
appear right on time without you clicking anything you set it up once and lesson

00:32:09.103 --> 00:32:13.103
launchpad runs your class in the background while you focus on students it's

00:32:13.103 --> 00:32:15.083
like having another teacher in the classroom with you.

00:32:15.323 --> 00:32:20.583
Check out lessonlaunchpad.com to start a one-month free trial and use the code

00:32:20.583 --> 00:32:23.523
BALANCE for $5 off a yearly subscription.

00:32:23.843 --> 00:32:27.503
If you're ready to start every class calm, clear, and ready to teach,

00:32:27.863 --> 00:32:29.703
check out Lesson Launchpad today.

00:32:30.743 --> 00:32:36.043
I remember my first year, my principal, he was much older than I am,

00:32:36.123 --> 00:32:37.743
and I went to him about a student.

00:32:38.043 --> 00:32:43.123
And we, I mean, we had a good rapport. And I remember him saying, you can't save them all.

00:32:43.883 --> 00:32:49.463
And I was so offended. I mean, when I can still, I hear it in my mind 25 years

00:32:49.463 --> 00:32:51.483
later of like exactly how it was said.

00:32:51.583 --> 00:32:57.903
And I remember feeling like completely crushed by that, you know, and I, now I get it.

00:32:57.983 --> 00:33:02.083
I do understand and I get the, but you don't, you know, you,

00:33:02.303 --> 00:33:04.363
it's because you do take them home with you.

00:33:04.483 --> 00:33:08.563
We still take them home with us. We do. We do. And, and that's.

00:33:10.287 --> 00:33:14.947
I, I, I'm sure that that comment didn't land well, but it's not wrong.

00:33:15.347 --> 00:33:17.847
Like it's hard. No, I mean, I get it now.

00:33:18.287 --> 00:33:22.267
Yeah. Yeah. And, and like the things that we've dealt with all the,

00:33:22.467 --> 00:33:25.987
the, you know, I, I often joke about like, you know, the fact that Jamie and

00:33:25.987 --> 00:33:28.107
I have some, uh, some dirt on

00:33:28.107 --> 00:33:31.027
our boots from the amount of time that we've been out in the field. Right.

00:33:31.227 --> 00:33:35.327
But that's all, you know, the battle scars that we've experienced of,

00:33:35.467 --> 00:33:39.047
you know, trying to do one thing with this one kid and it doesn't work out or,

00:33:39.047 --> 00:33:43.807
you know, trying to help this way or, or all the things that you wind up going

00:33:43.807 --> 00:33:45.047
through in your own life.

00:33:45.307 --> 00:33:48.067
Um, and you know, not to get into too much of the backstory,

00:33:48.067 --> 00:33:53.067
but you know, my co-host here deals with a lot in her personal life,

00:33:53.107 --> 00:33:58.307
uh, in regards to, you know, her, the things going on with her family and health issues.

00:33:58.407 --> 00:34:06.107
And I am amazed often at how she is able to do her job so well and with poise

00:34:06.107 --> 00:34:11.087
and grace and still give 110% every day when she's in the classroom.

00:34:12.867 --> 00:34:15.607
I admire it very much. I really do.

00:34:15.727 --> 00:34:22.227
But I also know that if this were first-year teacher, Jamie, you know what I mean?

00:34:22.367 --> 00:34:26.967
Dealing with that, I'm not saying, I think the things that you have went through

00:34:26.967 --> 00:34:31.727
in your life have prepared you for this moment. Which also allows you to deal with it.

00:34:31.867 --> 00:34:36.727
Doesn't make it easier. But it makes it something that's at least bearable while

00:34:36.727 --> 00:34:39.367
you're in school and working.

00:34:39.827 --> 00:34:43.567
Yeah. I think also you get a little better at, like, detachment.

00:34:44.287 --> 00:34:47.807
Right? Or, like, I'm going to pretend that, like, that's not happening.

00:34:48.187 --> 00:34:52.907
Yeah. And then I'll revisit it afterwards. But I...

00:34:54.713 --> 00:34:59.973
I've had the luck, really enjoy of having several student teachers,

00:35:00.433 --> 00:35:03.553
junior field, senior field. Some I had both junior and senior.

00:35:05.073 --> 00:35:09.233
And then also I've been a mentor a few times as well.

00:35:09.353 --> 00:35:13.953
And I think probably like something that is very important.

00:35:14.433 --> 00:35:18.573
And I don't know if it always, and I had this issue with a couple of the people

00:35:18.573 --> 00:35:21.373
from the colleges that would come when they were observing.

00:35:21.373 --> 00:35:24.473
It's like, this is great. you're doing

00:35:24.473 --> 00:35:27.673
great and I was like it's not

00:35:27.673 --> 00:35:30.613
that great and you can say

00:35:30.613 --> 00:35:33.773
that without you know it's like you're not doing anyone any

00:35:33.773 --> 00:35:37.053
favors by telling them especially you

00:35:37.053 --> 00:35:39.753
know with new teachers that by telling them that

00:35:39.753 --> 00:35:43.313
like what they're doing it's like this isn't gonna work

00:35:43.313 --> 00:35:46.233
if you're gonna tough it out and you're really

00:35:46.233 --> 00:35:48.873
gonna you know what I mean so it's like that I how do you

00:35:48.873 --> 00:35:54.313
tell somebody like maybe this is not gonna work for you let's try it this way

00:35:54.313 --> 00:35:57.673
or let's do it this way or you know and kind of like take a different approach

00:35:57.673 --> 00:36:03.833
and that is really tricky like that that talk but to me like it's absolutely

00:36:03.833 --> 00:36:06.493
so important like that's they have such a limited time to learn.

00:36:07.333 --> 00:36:13.573
And then they would come from my college and say like oh wow like really did you really think that

00:36:13.713 --> 00:36:16.833
was a wow uh you know

00:36:16.833 --> 00:36:19.953
so like there's also that piece i don't know if i'm it sounds

00:36:19.953 --> 00:36:23.113
mean but it's true it's like you have to tell someone when something isn't

00:36:23.113 --> 00:36:25.813
working well and part of that to talk about the

00:36:25.813 --> 00:36:28.713
reality shock of like they think they're doing every i

00:36:28.713 --> 00:36:31.713
guess like sunshine and flowers and then like uh-uh that's not

00:36:31.713 --> 00:36:36.693
gonna work when you're all by yourself let me tell you this now you know yes

00:36:36.693 --> 00:36:41.913
and part of one of the hardest parts of my job when i was at usf supervising

00:36:41.913 --> 00:36:48.793
interns was helping some undergrads figure out that teaching wasn't for them. And I.

00:36:49.852 --> 00:36:55.472
At the same time, it was almost a relief for so many people involved in those

00:36:55.472 --> 00:36:57.292
conversations because the student

00:36:57.292 --> 00:37:01.172
felt like, I'm invested in this and this is something I have to do.

00:37:01.392 --> 00:37:06.272
And they could feel this tension of, I don't really want to be a teacher.

00:37:06.472 --> 00:37:08.032
This wasn't what I thought it was going to be.

00:37:08.572 --> 00:37:13.392
And giving them permission to not do it. And that's okay, too.

00:37:13.392 --> 00:37:17.932
And so there's a fine balance, like you've said, of not crushing their hope

00:37:17.932 --> 00:37:24.232
for what teaching can be, but also recognizing this profession takes a very

00:37:24.232 --> 00:37:26.212
certain type of skill set,

00:37:26.532 --> 00:37:30.792
very specific personality and commitment to staying in it.

00:37:30.792 --> 00:37:33.932
And if you don't want to do it, that's okay.

00:37:34.492 --> 00:37:39.932
You're not going to do the children, the school's favors by going into something

00:37:39.932 --> 00:37:41.032
that you're not invested in.

00:37:41.192 --> 00:37:44.692
And that, I think, is part of the attrition rate, too, is...

00:37:45.594 --> 00:37:51.194
Feeling like you have to do this for the children and giving them,

00:37:51.354 --> 00:37:55.794
really letting them navigate what teaching is and if that's something that they want to do.

00:37:55.934 --> 00:37:59.134
I mean, I'm sure it's similar in medicine. You go in and you think being a doctor

00:37:59.134 --> 00:38:03.434
is going to be one way and you go and you are an intern and you realize,

00:38:03.574 --> 00:38:07.114
whoa, this is way, way, way out of my league. I don't want to do this.

00:38:07.334 --> 00:38:12.754
And so I think giving people permission to be authentic in what they choose

00:38:12.754 --> 00:38:14.454
for a career is also okay.

00:38:14.934 --> 00:38:20.474
And it's very hard to coach. I've only had to do it like twice to get them to

00:38:20.474 --> 00:38:22.214
realize this really wasn't for them.

00:38:22.334 --> 00:38:27.954
But it's so important because the students will suffer if you're noticing this

00:38:27.954 --> 00:38:30.154
really isn't working despite all these interventions.

00:38:31.314 --> 00:38:36.314
But 95% of the time, you can coach the student and show them,

00:38:36.414 --> 00:38:40.214
you know, these are some things that did go well. And there's also a lot that we need to work on.

00:38:40.454 --> 00:38:43.474
And so a lot of my interns, I

00:38:43.474 --> 00:38:46.274
was more of the here are the things you need

00:38:46.274 --> 00:38:49.394
to work on and their mentor teacher was more of the this is

00:38:49.394 --> 00:38:53.394
going great and so they learned to kind of seek their feedback from me and their

00:38:53.394 --> 00:38:58.614
affirmation from their teacher but you have to again have that rapport with

00:38:58.614 --> 00:39:03.094
the student and a lot of teachers don't always have that with a mentor when

00:39:03.094 --> 00:39:07.694
they're out in the field of getting constructive feedback from somebody they trust.

00:39:08.014 --> 00:39:13.894
And that's something that I attempted to do in my research was follow some graduates

00:39:13.894 --> 00:39:18.914
from the university and continue talking to them as somebody that they trusted

00:39:18.914 --> 00:39:23.894
and following up and saying, how are things going?

00:39:24.174 --> 00:39:29.014
What do you need? And that ended up being a really fruitful relationship for

00:39:29.014 --> 00:39:32.134
them and seeing other people are struggling too.

00:39:32.974 --> 00:39:38.154
I'm not alone. And I still have this resource of somebody that I knew from college

00:39:38.154 --> 00:39:42.534
that helped me grow as a teacher and now, or as a student teacher and now as

00:39:42.534 --> 00:39:44.974
a teacher in the classroom. So that,

00:39:45.649 --> 00:39:50.709
University side is something that I think is largely untapped out in the field

00:39:50.709 --> 00:39:54.209
of going back to the university where the teachers graduated from.

00:39:54.429 --> 00:39:59.669
And the school-university partnership idea, that's one big area that we,

00:39:59.789 --> 00:40:02.469
I think, could work on is having mentors,

00:40:02.629 --> 00:40:06.609
supervisors who come back and follow the teacher through their first or second

00:40:06.609 --> 00:40:11.689
year and help facilitate some coaching because they know this teacher.

00:40:11.689 --> 00:40:14.489
They grew them. They helped get them out there.

00:40:14.609 --> 00:40:18.389
And then we just dropped them in the field and expect them to sink or swim.

00:40:18.629 --> 00:40:21.569
And that broke my heart after the first year.

00:40:21.849 --> 00:40:28.169
And so I think that's a really big area of potential growth for education in

00:40:28.169 --> 00:40:33.129
our country is having these universities go back in and having really strong

00:40:33.129 --> 00:40:37.109
partnerships with clear guidelines of what we expect them to know when they

00:40:37.109 --> 00:40:41.529
graduate and what they can keep working on in their first year with the support of

00:40:41.689 --> 00:40:47.749
somebody they know and trust and will listen to and kind of have these tough

00:40:47.749 --> 00:40:51.929
conversations with because it's hard to give feedback to somebody you don't really know.

00:40:52.109 --> 00:40:54.929
I mean, when you're mentoring, it takes a while to build that rapport.

00:40:55.129 --> 00:40:58.629
It might be December or January before they're willing to really take your advice.

00:40:59.309 --> 00:41:05.869
Or they might never get there because it takes a special relationship and that takes so long to build.

00:41:06.069 --> 00:41:08.809
And so often mentoring ends at the end of

00:41:08.809 --> 00:41:12.409
year one as if that's all they needed just the

00:41:12.409 --> 00:41:17.369
first year but it's really the three to five years that was going to be my next

00:41:17.369 --> 00:41:24.969
uh you know we do like new teacher uh training um that all of our new teachers

00:41:24.969 --> 00:41:28.189
are supposed to attend a meeting every two months or every month or whatever

00:41:28.189 --> 00:41:30.629
it is and then it's like okay we're done,

00:41:31.524 --> 00:41:35.944
And that's it. And I don't think that that, I don't think that aids in retention.

00:41:37.804 --> 00:41:41.764
Very often it does not. That's, that's my belief.

00:41:42.784 --> 00:41:45.884
So I don't know if this should be more of like an academy type where you have

00:41:45.884 --> 00:41:50.184
year one, year two, year three, and you know, you, you maybe aren't doing meetings

00:41:50.184 --> 00:41:52.864
every month, but year two, you're doing meetings every other month.

00:41:52.864 --> 00:41:55.904
And you're having them talk about, you know,

00:41:56.584 --> 00:42:00.804
what, what, uh, effective instruction looks like in their building and like

00:42:00.804 --> 00:42:03.964
have those, those, especially in a district as large as we are,

00:42:04.124 --> 00:42:07.864
where they could start seeing like, oh, I'm going through this and you're going

00:42:07.864 --> 00:42:08.984
through this and you're going through this.

00:42:09.064 --> 00:42:12.464
So there's other people who are all, you know, rowing the boat the same direction.

00:42:12.544 --> 00:42:15.844
So we all are kind of like, we're kind of all in this together.

00:42:15.844 --> 00:42:19.144
And I think, I think like people need that, especially when,

00:42:19.264 --> 00:42:22.984
especially in the model that you were talking about and like the kids,

00:42:23.344 --> 00:42:27.224
young teachers, they go like in their elementary school and there's a whole

00:42:27.224 --> 00:42:31.604
pod of them that like travels together and they learn that team mentality.

00:42:32.064 --> 00:42:37.084
Yes. I think that that's a huge, uh, benefit, um.

00:42:38.609 --> 00:42:41.929
For, I think, actually, let me rephrase that.

00:42:42.069 --> 00:42:47.549
I think it's a miss for school districts to not have a longer program to make

00:42:47.549 --> 00:42:51.789
sure that teachers are fully acclimated and give them the support that they need.

00:42:51.889 --> 00:42:56.129
Because then you might identify, well, maybe this teacher needs XYZ support

00:42:56.129 --> 00:42:59.949
or, you know, this additional training to make sure that they're effective in the classroom.

00:43:00.369 --> 00:43:04.749
So. And identifying gaps in their university training.

00:43:04.949 --> 00:43:08.189
It's like, oh, they really are strong in literacy, but they didn't learn a ton

00:43:08.189 --> 00:43:09.289
about science instruction.

00:43:09.329 --> 00:43:13.609
So they just need this little bit of help with this academic thing,

00:43:13.609 --> 00:43:16.929
because a lot of the time induction is very one size fits all.

00:43:17.189 --> 00:43:20.349
It's very much a box checking activity of,

00:43:20.909 --> 00:43:26.089
okay, read this book or participate in this book club or something that isn't

00:43:26.089 --> 00:43:31.349
always a problem of practice that they brought or something to help them grow

00:43:31.349 --> 00:43:33.889
on an individualized basis.

00:43:34.589 --> 00:43:40.049
So induction, I think, often is a miss because we don't have robust programs

00:43:40.049 --> 00:43:43.369
that are responsive to the novice teachers.

00:43:43.949 --> 00:43:49.949
So yes, they're often not as effective with retention as we'd like them to be.

00:43:50.209 --> 00:43:55.369
And that would be just great if we could create a program that actually worked, right?

00:43:55.769 --> 00:43:59.369
For sure. And I think that's why we see also a shift,

00:43:59.569 --> 00:44:02.769
which is a wonderful thing in paid student teaching

00:44:02.769 --> 00:44:06.449
experiences and we recently

00:44:06.449 --> 00:44:11.829
spoke to someone who was able to do her fifth year in her program and also get

00:44:11.829 --> 00:44:16.909
her master's while doing and they were paying for it and working and and it

00:44:16.909 --> 00:44:20.869
just made so much sense because you're still getting those levels of support

00:44:20.869 --> 00:44:22.809
but you're not also you know.

00:44:23.593 --> 00:44:27.133
Without making zero dollars, you know, so it kind of makes it more practical.

00:44:27.753 --> 00:44:30.513
And, you know, and then you're still getting the support that you need while,

00:44:30.693 --> 00:44:33.133
you know, while also getting paid, which is great.

00:44:33.233 --> 00:44:38.773
Well, and the same aspect of we need to do these things in order to attract more.

00:44:38.953 --> 00:44:44.173
I mean, I don't know what the program looks like at USF, but more and more teacher

00:44:44.173 --> 00:44:49.773
preparation programs are smaller and smaller at the university level and the

00:44:49.773 --> 00:44:53.433
local college level because kids aren't, students aren't majoring in it.

00:44:55.633 --> 00:45:01.033
I think our College of Education was shut down for a little while before I started

00:45:01.033 --> 00:45:04.653
there, which was like, oh, you're going to USF? Didn't they just close?

00:45:05.093 --> 00:45:07.293
Yeah, but we got it back open.

00:45:08.333 --> 00:45:12.933
It's very much a hot mess everywhere. Not only that, there was one school my

00:45:12.933 --> 00:45:16.973
son applied to that he got a little extra scholarship because he was an education major,

00:45:17.273 --> 00:45:21.993
which was the only one that offered that, which I think that those schools are

00:45:21.993 --> 00:45:27.593
trying to attract more future educators into their preparatory programs.

00:45:28.953 --> 00:45:31.553
And the idea of paid student teaching.

00:45:32.933 --> 00:45:40.253
When I was in college, they didn't have a future teachers association group

00:45:40.253 --> 00:45:44.853
at the college that I was at. Now, all the schools have those.

00:45:45.093 --> 00:45:51.393
And they're in concert with the NJEA. They have the NJAEA, that future educators

00:45:51.393 --> 00:45:55.653
can join, the Aspiring Educator Association, which I think is also great because

00:45:55.653 --> 00:45:58.733
that's creating that network. That's needed. Yeah.

00:45:59.332 --> 00:46:02.352
For teachers to feel like supported in the classroom.

00:46:03.572 --> 00:46:06.332
I want to ask you the magic bullet question, right?

00:46:07.472 --> 00:46:11.992
And that would be like, if schools truly wanted to prioritize teacher wellbeing,

00:46:12.332 --> 00:46:15.552
what's one structural change that you would want to start with tomorrow?

00:46:15.792 --> 00:46:18.072
Like one thing you would say, everybody's got to do this starting tomorrow.

00:46:18.252 --> 00:46:24.832
And I realize it's multifaceted and like so many things that there'd need to

00:46:24.832 --> 00:46:28.132
be a magic bullet for it. But what's the one thing you think should be prioritized?

00:46:29.751 --> 00:46:33.911
Well, we've talked a lot about mentoring, and I think that this is a really

00:46:33.911 --> 00:46:35.751
realistic area to start in.

00:46:36.191 --> 00:46:40.391
Like, ideally, I have like these visions of how schools could function.

00:46:40.571 --> 00:46:44.871
But one that I think could actually work is training mentors,

00:46:45.411 --> 00:46:51.391
having a realistic caseload for them, and making this mentoring experience of

00:46:51.391 --> 00:46:55.931
novice teachers a positive experience that's responsive to the student,

00:46:56.071 --> 00:47:00.951
to the teacher, and is focused on more than just student achievement and instructional

00:47:00.951 --> 00:47:03.291
strategies. Those are crucial parts of teaching.

00:47:03.951 --> 00:47:10.531
However, very, very few first and second year teachers struggle immensely with those things.

00:47:10.731 --> 00:47:15.671
They struggle the most with workload and balance and getting everything accomplished

00:47:15.671 --> 00:47:20.051
and keeping track of all of their grading and all of those extra things that

00:47:20.051 --> 00:47:20.951
are outside of teaching.

00:47:20.951 --> 00:47:26.391
Those effective teaching ratings and the skills that you need to be an excellent

00:47:26.391 --> 00:47:30.131
educator come with time and with experience, like you've both mentioned,

00:47:30.291 --> 00:47:34.591
that I am a completely different teacher than I was when I was in my first year,

00:47:34.631 --> 00:47:38.851
and the teachers just need to be there long enough to build up that skill set.

00:47:38.851 --> 00:47:46.971
But if we don't support them emotionally and through that really tough reality shock first year,

00:47:47.511 --> 00:47:51.031
then they leave really early and they don't get the time to grow into their

00:47:51.031 --> 00:47:55.171
teaching selves and grow into these excellent teachers, which most of them can

00:47:55.171 --> 00:47:57.091
be because they're receiving great training.

00:47:57.191 --> 00:48:00.311
They're in schools with excellent people to go to for support.

00:48:00.651 --> 00:48:04.091
But if we can't keep them past the first couple of years, they're not going

00:48:04.091 --> 00:48:06.471
to access those skills and keep getting better.

00:48:06.471 --> 00:48:11.291
So I feel like if we pull back on the student achievement and instructional

00:48:11.291 --> 00:48:15.331
strategies and that kind of technical support in the first couple of years and

00:48:15.331 --> 00:48:18.491
focus more on how are you managing the classroom,

00:48:18.871 --> 00:48:23.971
because isn't that a challenge when you're a new teacher and if you're in secondary

00:48:23.971 --> 00:48:25.571
and you're close to their age?

00:48:26.448 --> 00:48:30.708
That classroom management piece is huge. And having somebody there to help you

00:48:30.708 --> 00:48:33.748
through that and recognizing that it's not a personal failure,

00:48:33.748 --> 00:48:35.288
it's something that comes with time.

00:48:36.128 --> 00:48:40.668
Getting them through, just helping them survive and thrive through those first

00:48:40.668 --> 00:48:43.328
couple years needs to be the focus.

00:48:43.488 --> 00:48:47.268
And that often is not because of an instructional strategy.

00:48:48.068 --> 00:48:52.108
And if we could just take out the word self-care. That's a really good point.

00:48:52.528 --> 00:48:54.428
And also this word self-care.

00:48:54.868 --> 00:49:00.988
No. You cannot self-care yourself out of a broken system that is not supporting you as a teacher.

00:49:01.348 --> 00:49:04.108
It is not self-care. That's not the problem.

00:49:04.528 --> 00:49:09.328
You can go get a facial every weekend, but that is not going to help you through

00:49:09.328 --> 00:49:13.468
a broken educational system that is not supporting you.

00:49:13.808 --> 00:49:19.248
So self-care puts even more onto the teacher's plates that they do not need.

00:49:19.508 --> 00:49:23.288
They need support. They need less on their plate. They do not need the added

00:49:23.288 --> 00:49:27.388
burden of somebody telling them, you need to take care of yourself and shaming

00:49:27.388 --> 00:49:31.968
them for not taking care of themselves, then feeling like they're failing at yet another thing.

00:49:32.328 --> 00:49:37.808
And so I would say ditch the word self-care and give them meaningful,

00:49:37.808 --> 00:49:41.028
responsive support from somebody who's trained in that.

00:49:41.028 --> 00:49:44.868
And that would fix a lot of things, I think, and at least keep them for a year

00:49:44.868 --> 00:49:49.588
or two until they are ready to kind of take on more of these technical professional

00:49:49.588 --> 00:49:54.088
development aspects that we push on them so early before they can even really

00:49:54.088 --> 00:49:55.428
understand what any of it means.

00:49:56.868 --> 00:50:00.828
Wow, that's if you had a microphone, I'd say drop it. But like,

00:50:00.948 --> 00:50:04.668
I love the fact that you're like that you're like, oh, self-care, you know.

00:50:06.773 --> 00:50:10.393
F that noise, as my co-host would love to say. It's true.

00:50:10.533 --> 00:50:14.393
Which, you know, and also, you know, self-care, you can't suggest to someone

00:50:14.393 --> 00:50:17.753
that you should do something that's more expensive than they can even afford

00:50:17.753 --> 00:50:20.213
and then another thing for them to schedule and another.

00:50:20.353 --> 00:50:23.313
Yeah, it's it's it's it's insulting in a way.

00:50:23.433 --> 00:50:27.493
Yeah. Yeah, it is. And when I was coding my data and going through every time

00:50:27.493 --> 00:50:29.993
I would see the word self-care, I would tag it as self-care.

00:50:30.913 --> 00:50:35.633
Because I just had this aversion to the term. And by the time I was writing

00:50:35.633 --> 00:50:39.293
this, I was like, ugh, I hate the word self-care. I hate everything about it.

00:50:39.533 --> 00:50:42.253
And so now when anybody says like, oh, self-care Sunday, I'm like,

00:50:42.353 --> 00:50:47.453
ugh, I just have this yuck about it. It's like me and the phrase game changer.

00:50:47.733 --> 00:50:50.613
It's like me and the phrase game changer. Oh, I hate that too. Oh, I know, right?

00:50:50.893 --> 00:50:53.953
And you know why? Because everybody says it's a game changer.

00:50:53.953 --> 00:50:56.133
So if everything is a game changer, nothing is a game changer.

00:50:56.273 --> 00:50:58.953
So stop it. Yeah, stop it.

00:51:00.093 --> 00:51:03.153
This way to organize your fridge is a game changer. Shut your face.

00:51:03.153 --> 00:51:05.633
Also, it's more than a car.

00:51:05.853 --> 00:51:09.913
It's more than an insurance plan. It's more than a degree.

00:51:10.593 --> 00:51:12.133
I hate the more thing.

00:51:13.213 --> 00:51:19.333
Well, hey, speaking of insurance plans, I mean, you know, our season three is

00:51:19.333 --> 00:51:22.553
brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Teacher's Insurance Plan.

00:51:22.673 --> 00:51:25.673
Make sure you check out the link below to get a quote for more information.

00:51:25.813 --> 00:51:30.853
Teacher's Insurance Plan. And check it out for exclusive educator savings for

00:51:30.853 --> 00:51:33.713
New Jersey and Pennsylvania educational employees.

00:51:34.553 --> 00:51:39.693
Allison, I appreciate you very much for joining us on this blizzardy day while

00:51:39.693 --> 00:51:41.793
you're up. Well, you know, you can get to go out and shovel.

00:51:41.953 --> 00:51:45.473
While you're scooping the sunshine, Allison. I appreciate you, Joe. I appreciate you.

00:51:46.353 --> 00:51:50.073
Scooping the sunshine. Gosh darn it. Old man shakes fist at Skye.

00:51:50.113 --> 00:51:52.833
My family's up there in Massachusetts shoveling.

00:51:52.933 --> 00:51:57.453
I know. You said Maine, and that's like stupid cold up there.

00:51:57.593 --> 00:51:59.893
Yeah, it's really bad. No thanks.

00:52:00.513 --> 00:52:04.853
So, hey, we appreciate you being here, Allison, and we'll see everybody next time.