27: Christmas presents: ungrateful teens, why are they like that, and what to do about gifts?

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Hello, I'm Rachel Richards and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug where we use research by experts and our own experience to discuss everything and anything to do with parenting teenagers.

Susie Asli: 0:14

Hi, I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician, and mother of three teenagers two of them are twins.

Rachel Richards: 0:23

As a parenting coach, I've seen the transformative power of listening to how other parents work. We can feel supported, get fresh ideas. And even if we disagree, it helps us to think more clearly about the way we parent and why. So welcome, pull up a chair. And let's begin. In this episode, we have a terrific subject suggested by our regular listener, Frankie. She wanted us to talk about giving presents to teenagers at Christmas, and how to cope with a lack of gratitude. But first, Susie, what have you learned this week?

Susie Asli: 0:54

Oh, lots. But my nugget, I think is the way I operate with with my kids and with all my relationships actually, is that if I have a falling out or a discussion or disagreement, then once we're done, we're done. Like, I revisit it if it's not done. But if it's done, I do not hold grudges,

Rachel Richards: 1:18

it's gone. So you never go back over this again a week, a year later, unless

Susie Asli: 1:22

it's necessary unless there's there's something unfinished in it. But it's not like I would never bring it up as a sort of resentment or festering thing. Once it's gone, it's gone. And I realized that my kids have picked up on that, which is really lovely. So I had a quite a large falling out with my eldest. Which is fine. We're human beings. That happens. We texted a bit afterwards, and it was fine. But when I came home later in the day, and he was there already, it was fine. He was like, Oh, hi, mom, how you doing? And not in a shoving it under the carpet kind of way. But just you know, we've moved on, which was really lovely to experience. We then talked about the actual issue later, which he was not super enthusiastic about but but did. And we we spent about four minutes discussing it, sorted it out. And then we moved on. And we don't we don't hold things. And it's just nice to experience that that has passed through.

Rachel Richards: 2:20

I love that. And I think it's so, so important. It's a rule in our house as well. And I think they're more likely to engage in unpicking what went wrong in a specific scenario. If they know that once you've unpicked it, and everybody's had a conversation about it, then you will move on. I think having to revisit things, you know, once they've happened a year later, it's just no one's ever going to grow. They're just going to feel stuck.

Susie Asli: 2:46

No. And there's a difference, I think between you know, bringing something up again, because it's unfinished or there's a loose thread in it that's come to light and you can bring it back in that way. I just want to explore that that didn't make sense. Or I want to just revisit that that's fine. But you know, Chuck, stuff back at people Oh, you did that last time or? Or to sulk about it? Or hold grudges? Or you know, you know, sulk for a couple of days? Because you've fallen out? I hate that. Yeah, we don't have that, which is really nice to experience. Yes.

Rachel Richards: 3:16

Well, personally, for me, I work this last week or two, I've been thinking about my own upbringing, because I've been helping my sister. And it reminded me of a decision I made with my kids when they were quite young, which is that if they have a little bit of a tantrum, or they get upset about some decision I've made or anything like that, and they're exhibiting explosive behavior, or stomping, upstairs, crying, all that sort of stuff, there's a tendency to want to go and calm them down. But what I do is I just leave them and I have one child who's much more explosive than the other, but I just say, You know what, you you, I'm letting you go off and do your thing. And I have been explicit about that. But I found it's really effective. Because what happens is, sometimes they're going to sort of be in their room sobbing and screaming, and, you know, and and waiting for me to come up. And if I let it all pass, then they'll eventually they'll come down and we can reengage. And I feel like it's really important not to encourage that sort of behavior, because all you do is you teach them that it's effective is effective at getting noticed. I mentioned this to my kids the other day, and they said, Oh, yes, we used to do that. And both of them said hi done that I've done that. And then I sat upstairs crying and then I could hear you downstairs and people were talking and I thought actually this is really boring. I don't want to be here. And then it came down and joined in and that nothing was said about it unless they wanted to bring it up. And they just discovered that that bad behavior was not going to work.

Susie Asli: 4:52

Yeah, I guess it I love that. And I guess it depends on you know the reason for the tantrum, doesn't it? So sometimes, you know, the CO regulation says I remember my kids have had, you know, where they've really been very upset about something. And I remember just saying, I'm just going to sit here while while you while you are having whatever you're having. And then they calm down within that. But if the if they're doing it because that they're trying to connect, then teaching them to connect in a different ways

Rachel Richards: 5:19

is here it's just about rewarding other behaviors. Anyway, it's just the way that we work and it seems to work for us. So we've had another review on Apple formula cosine 38 said absolutely love this. You are so great to listen to. It's like spending time with knowledgeable friends.

Susie Asli: 5:37

Thank you. That's really lovely. It's so lovely to get feedback. I

Rachel Richards: 5:40

feel slightly intimidated trigonometry formula coast, I haven't. I'm very I'm very glad we've got very bright.

Susie Asli: 5:48

Actually formula something. Yeah, no, no,

Rachel Richards: 5:50

I think it's probably the case. And anyway, I know, it's really hard to find a place to put the reviews. But when we get them, we really can help other people to find our so and obviously, it makes us jump around for joy. So please do that. If you are listening to the program, you like it? let other people know review us. Thank you. Right now. Teenagers and Christmas. Oh, the thing about teenagers and Christmas is that up until the teenage years, we tend to make it this kind of special time when Father Christmas is going to come and it's you know that there's an a tendency to do that. And then the teenage years, it's all sort of fallen a bit flat, hasn't it? And I wonder I wonder whether teenagers then they say, well, it's just about presence. And isn't it? You know, all that magic has gone? And they're a bit disheartened about it. And so I wonder, the extent to which we need to recognize that in ourselves that there's going to be a side of them that feels let down.

Susie Asli: 6:52

Yeah. Because it's it's, you know, it's the magic is fun, isn't it? And when that's not there, it's missing, but I think we can we can tweak it so that it's still magical, just in a different way. And it's all about setting expectations, isn't it?

Rachel Richards: 7:05

And so this gratitude, I looked it up because it you know, infuses religious, cultural and scholarly traditions and goes back to Cicero, you've got it in the Bible, all sorts of religions will talk about gratitude. The question is, what is it, I read a paper from the Greater Good Science Center of UC Berkeley, on gratitude? It's really long and quite confusing. And actually, even at the end of it, I thought, wow, this is massive, and no one seems to really have an exact handle on it. But there are a number of factors that can influence how much gratitude a person feels in a certain situation. So number one, it includes what you think of the givers intention. So was the person who was giving you something acting out of pure altruism? Or was it because of selfish motives? Like, are they trying to improve their reputation? Right? Number two, what was the cost to the person who's giving you the gift? Number three, what's the gift worth to you? Or me the recipient, recipient? Number four, whether the gift or favor was provided by choice, or was this an obligation? Pretty interesting? Yeah. And then finally, one of the studies that we impact, several studies have found that girls and women tend to report feeling more grateful than boys and men. And they speculate with that. It may be because boys and men feel more likely to associate gratitude with weakness or indebtedness.

Susie Asli: 8:35

That's interesting. That's interesting. I mean, gratitude is amazing. It says, it's defined in so many different ways, I think, isn't it? Is it a thought based thing? Is it a feeling? Is it a practice? I mean, it's all of those things, isn't it? And we can't make people be grateful. No, we can't make people feel grateful. We can only model it. Yes. So you can't expect somebody to go well, you know, I've given you this. Now, you've got to be grateful that it doesn't

Rachel Richards: 9:03

work, then they're less likely if you tell someone you need to be grateful. Yeah, they're less likely to feel grateful.

Susie Asli: 9:09

And if not, then that's not really gratitude either, is it? It's just that's the reciprocity. That's this. That's a expected

Rachel Richards: 9:16

exchange relationship. So that brings me on to a Yale Assistant Professor of Psychology, Yarrow, Dunham, who found that four to eight year old kids responded differently when given a gift they thought they'd earned, versus one that they was granted out of simple generosity. And he called the end gift and exchange relationship. The children were happy for the trinket, but they didn't experience the gratitude that might also make them more generous. Paying it forward. Like generous to others. Yeah, yeah. Because that's how He's measuring it. And as parents, we probably don't consider our holiday gifts and exchange relationship, because we know the time and money and effort we put into buying them but the kids if they didn't realize The extent to which you've thought through you've had to go shopping, you've, you know, struggled over it, then they're not going to see it that way. So for example, you know, you give a son a cellphone, and he says, and then you say, well, you need to be grateful for it. And he says, Well, that's what parents do, isn't it? All?

Susie Asli: 10:19

Right, you Yeah, yeah. I mean, say, seen in that light, that's a logical conclusion to thinking like that.

Rachel Richards: 10:25

And I've seen some parents talking about how they feel there's a competition between them and the divorced or the parents. And, and it stresses them. And then other people saying, well, I would just, you know, as long as my kids get everything, I don't really care, just let them get it for them. And it's, that's very, very painful. Because, you know, there's a question of, you know, someone's here is buying more love than another person. And then I start thinking, what's this all about? Why, why is Christmas become something? So it's a really strange concept, isn't it? This? You know, some people are very religious, and it has deep meaning. But then there's a transactional thing that comes with Christmas, which is all about buying presents gifts, I think we need to think about what are we trying to achieve with Christmas? And why is all the gift giving compressed birthdays and Christmas? Or Easter? And, you know, what are we why? What are we thinking him?

Susie Asli: 11:18

It's a really interesting question, a really interesting topic. And in our houses, it's kind of more intense, because I have twins, who has birthdays on the 20th of December.

Rachel Richards: 11:29

So that was really exhausting. What do you do?

Susie Asli: 11:34

Well, and then they go to their dads every other year. So it's just kind of like a, you know, they get mega presents, and then nothing for the rest of the you know, but I don't know, we seem to have settled on it. I don't know, it seems to work really well, now. And they've, they, they have learned to kind of think about in advance is there anything they want anything they need, they're going to be 15 this year, because they know that that's, you know, if they don't think about something that they really want, then they won't get something. And then there's a whole year. So actually, my daughter has made a PowerPoint presentation in the last two years. And she's she goes to great pains going to be a world leader that she's amazing. She goes to great pains, you know, every other page of it saying these are just my wishes and ideas, you really don't have to buy them. They're just ideas, there's so many of them, you don't have to buy. So they kind of get the they get the idea. And I think we've always talked about it, you know, you can ask for whatever you want, put it down, put it down. And I completely get that you love these things. We talked about this. You might not get it but I so get that you want all those things so that they can dream big. But you know, they're also realistic. They don't. They're really actually appreciative for what they do.

Rachel Richards: 12:46

Yes. And those, those, I hope she keeps those PowerPoints because it'll be well, the great thing is, she can look back in 10 years and say that was really important to me, then

Susie Asli: 12:56

all these different face creams that I didn't.

Rachel Richards: 13:00

So we need to think about how we feel about present giving Yeah, and how we choose the presence, how much time we spend on them. And when we accuse teenagers, we don't have to accuse when we feel like the teenager hasn't actually given us any form of gratitude, or they've looked disappointed. That's because we feel they owe us something, which is gratitude. And that is not the basis for good present giving, because it needs to be about something else.

Susie Asli: 13:30

Yes. Yeah. Why are you doing that present? Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Richards: 13:34

And so what can we do? Number one, don't demand gratitude to feel grateful one needs to recognize that what's been given comes intentionally. So you've done it on purpose and altruistically. So you need to kind of not be asking anything in return for it to be an effective gift. So if you're going to give something it needs to be given without anything expected in return, pn rainbow messaged us and said, Someone once said to me, why should your kids be grateful for the life you've provided? It's their normal. So why should we seek gratitude and get them to thank us when they don't know any different? Yeah, that's such a good so it's a kind of contextual thing isn't Yeah, and

Susie Asli: 14:11

that's the whole thing as well. You can't expect somebody to but you can't make somebody feel grateful. You have to, you have to invite it, you have to model it, you have to make them or you have to help them help our teenagers to to appreciate the value of things. It's coming back to values again, what do you value?

Rachel Richards: 14:28

Yes. And I think Frankie, her point was actually that she would like them to appreciate the thought that's gone into the gift not necessarily being thankful for for the gifts but understanding that they have enough and that the need to understand that what's been given is something special. So what I think it's all about and having our children understand how incredibly lucky they are, generally so we'll come on to that because I think we In the children, and when our teens are unhappy in the moment, when you look at their face and you think, Oh, I didn't like it, or, or they're being ungrateful, the thing that you can do is you can point out ungratefulness respectfully, you don't have to say that you're being such a brat or so ungrateful or you're so spoiled, because that won't make them feel more grateful. And Mandy Silverman, Dr. Mandy Silverman is a psychologist with a child MIND Institute. And she said, look, you've got to validate the emotion. Yes. So while they're in the middle of the motion, they can't they can't be grateful. So you need to say, I can see that you're not this isn't quite what you were hoping for. So you know, I know it's an iPhone eight, and you wanted an iPhone 11? Well, there might have been 14, okay. But you know, we can't afford that, or this was some, this is what I could get for Yeah, but the great thing is, it is an iPhone, and you can still download all those apps and things, but I get it, I get why you'd want an 11. And maybe when we've got a bit more money or things aren't so difficult, we can look at that.

Susie Asli: 16:05

I think that's a great point. And that that appeals in that relates to everything, doesn't it, allow them to have the feelings that they're having, because you know, nobody makes up their feelings, we can't produce the feeling of feeling as a feeling, if they're disappointed, they're disappointed. And we can validate that we can allow them to have it and then help them with it afterwards. And I think a lot of the problem is also again, that we, the old chestnut that I bang on about loads is that we hate sitting with discomfort. So when our kids go, I hate the President that you spent, you know, 15 hours researching online and went to wherever to get and blah, blah, blah, if that's what you choose to do. And, you know, we don't like the discomfort of them going well, I didn't appreciate that, or I don't like it, or telling them no, you can't have it because we can't afford it or I don't think that's an appropriate gift. And then they're not going Oh, thanks, Mom. You're right, you're so sensible. But there's always they always do Yeah, they maybe kick off a bit or they they're upset, you know, we hate that discomfort. We then feel we've let them down, we've disappointed them. Well, no, maybe that's just them learning that they can't have everything and then being with the discomfort of that and knowing that passes, and what should we do

Rachel Richards: 17:17

now and take solace in knowing that it's normal that that might happen? And help them to understand the why they feel that way? And how that doesn't really help them to feel that that actually there are other ways that they can look at this. Yeah. And maybe when we're thinking about present giving, rather than perhaps thinking, spending all that time and looking for things, you know, you've got a great one, which I do as well is just basically what do they want? And get them that, you know, I've had people say to me, what would you like, and I say, and I give them I say I'd like a mug, and then they don't get the mug that I want? And it doesn't have to you know, and you think well, why did you buy it? So actually, the thing is, rather than spending so much energy and things on trying to find the better thing for that person, why not just go for what what it is that they want, it's going to be that sort of relationship. Like it's about giving them something they want, and teach them the joy of giving and things like the Christmas box that for children and other countries and yeah, that sort of stuff where you give them a budget and say right, you've got to spend that budget. How are you going to do that for someone your age, what what what would be appropriate. And on that note, I bang on about this nearly every single episode but personally, the massive game changer in my household has been given my teenagers and allowance and it's not that they weren't grateful before because they've always been quite grateful because I think I made the big mistakes when they were younger, I bought too many things I make Christmas all about you know, it had to be perfect I had to have the perfect meal and and then I thought I joined this because it's really stressful. And I just scaled everything back so now Christmas is about one bigger gift for the kids. Adults we give each other Max 20 quid 20 pound gift and then they get little things in their stockings and even the meals been scaled back so that it's just a fun meal we all prepare together and the whole emphasis is on new games that we get and watching TV together hugging just messing around together and is there's it's a day when there's literally no fixed forced anything we can just be ourselves. Yeah. So we've we've completely changed the emphasis But coming back to that allowance. It's been incredible because what happens is included in the allowance money they have is what I taught it up for them giving a friend a present. And so I thought how many friends might they actually literally really have. So I didn't know let's say five real friends six real friends. And then how much would I be spending on it? Each of those friends on their birthday, because I used to have to do that. And then I thought I didn't want to do that should be their job. It's their friend. So I put that into the allowance. And I told them, when I set out the allowance, I was very explicit and said, now it's your job to get your friends presents. Oh, my goodness, what a difference that's made. Because they're now very careful when they go out and spend money on presents, they're very careful to find a present that would be suitable for the friend, they think very hard about whether they like the friend. But also, it's meant that when they're thinking about my present shopping, they totally get it. Yeah, they have seen how much time it takes how expensive it is, because they see the money going out of their own allowance. And they understand so then our values and our feelings about gift giving have halved. We're now on the same side of the fence. That's really beautiful. It's very powerful. And the other thing about it is, I feel like we ringfence Christmas, and birthdays. And that's the time you give presents. And I find that very, very weird. Especially understand within five days. Yeah, exactly. I don't really understand this concept at all. So what I've done is I've scaled back the whole Christmas thing, but I actually, occasionally during the year, I'll see that they really liked something and you know what, I'll get that just be a little gift for you, or just just random gifts and all random acts, things we do together, where they're not expecting it.

Susie Asli: 21:31

And then again, as expectations is yes.

Rachel Richards: 21:33

And then they just go Oh, that's amazing. And that means that it's you know, it's a different relationship we've developed as a result.

Susie Asli: 21:42

Yeah, that's really lovely. Because then if you have no expectations, then it's really a beautiful thing, isn't it? Exactly. And maybe one thing that's worth we've, I think we've spoken about it before one but with Christmas and gifts worth worth just having a think about is that language of love thing where, where some people their language of love is gifts. So for them, giving great Christmas presents and receiving gifts, receiving presents is a really big deal. So for those who aren't familiar with it, what is it this language of love is how you express your love. And we you know, we have a bit of all of them. But we tend to have a tendency and one of them as gifts, one of them is time spent with the others physical touch, words of affirmation, things that you do for other people. Yeah. So chores are things you deal with. So if if gifts is your language of love, or your child's language of love and isn't yours, then it's really helpful to have that awareness that actually maybe it means more or more to you, which is maybe why it's really important for you to be thanked or whatever. I love having that awareness is really helps

Rachel Richards: 22:47

connection, having that conversation and saying I think that for you, this is very much more meaningful than it is for me, for example, the question is, are your teenagers relating gifts you give them to your love for them? Are they is that the connection? Are they actually saying that unless I get this quality of gift, I'm not being shown love? Yeah. So you can move that shift that by giving them time or giving them other things that that are more meaningful. The Cornell psychology professor Tom Gilovich said that actually asking children to be grateful for gifts is sending the wrong message. He says people are much more likely to be grateful for experiences, your material possessions, which is a good tip, guys. So we need to think about other things we could be doing rather than just giving them a gift. So I remember as a teenager, I actually what was much more important to me as I just would have liked somebody to play cards with me. Yes. And nobody did. So for me, you know, that's why so with my kids, I say to them, you know, me sitting down and playing a game with you is really meaningful, because I'm giving you my time and all they know will actually know that we all we all agree that actually spending time together is because we're also busy. Yes. And that's you know, for my kids, if they're feeling a bit down or something I'll just say let's have a game or peruta Five minutes and we all end up laughing

Susie Asli: 24:13

It's really lovely. Yeah, time and effort put in like for years I did and slightly weirdly maybe, but we have I've mixed the traditions of Denmark and England and and put my own in and their own and all of that. And we have elves in the loft, which is a Danish thing, but antacid is brilliant and like funny games and stuff every day which again by you know the 19th of December I would just kill these but it's not like Elf on the Shelf is slightly different because you never see them and it's all a bit magical and really fun. And you have to go up into the loft and give them porridge and rice pudding. And then but I would paint them little elves every day as the elves were making. And now they're older they're pretty sure that it's no there are no elves in the loft, but now that older it's Pretty interesting, they really kind of look back. And they can see that that was a lot of efforts I put in, and it's really lovely. So. So last year we had, I said, we're not going to really do the El Sol, because it's not the same if no one's really believing in it. What do you think, guys? And so they kind of slightly took it in turns to do the jokes. And my eldest who'd always who he, I think he was six, when he realized it was me. He started doing the tricks and doing love things. And it's just really, like a beautiful tradition is effort put in and it's the fun, it's the connection you have, you know, none of that's worth any value like No, present wise, but I think that's probably something they'll do

Rachel Richards: 25:41

with their kids. And it's something that Bond's you together as a family as a family. So it's about trying to create family traditions, rather than it being about a present. Yes,

Susie Asli: 25:50

yeah, we, I mean, we still discuss the time that I put vinegar as apple juice. And at least the twins have tried it and knew what it was. And he took a massive gulp. That is one of our biggest, you know, Christmas traditions, not what prep, no one can remember what presence they got that year.

Rachel Richards: 26:06

Well, that's exactly the point. That's exactly the what we're trying to get to the nub of this isn't and helping our teenagers notice the kindness others have shown them as a critical one. So we tend to notice negative emotions more, which you point out all the time. And we need to help our teenagers feel grateful by pointing out when things are done for them, or things go well for them. So my daughter was lent a dress for a party. And instead of having to buy one, and I was a little bit scared that maybe the dress wouldn't turn up. But no, it turned up and I just said to her, Oh, my goodness, what a friend to lend you her dress for a party. So I think we need to always underline when good things are happening. And when people doing things. Even for example, you say, Well, why should your child your teenager? Thank you, for anything, really, because your parents, you know, your job is to make Christmas, you know, your job is to? Well, maybe the thing the way to teach them is to thank them? Yes, when they do the chores that they're supposed to do? And you might say, Well, why should I thank them this? Well, why should your kids thank you for what they think you should be doing? Never

Susie Asli: 27:14

it? I mean, it's a classic, isn't it? If you if you're missing something if you're missing a particular way of being in your life? So in this example, it might be gratitude, then, are you doing it? Are you modeling that? Are you showing great gratitude? And then then you'll send that that ripple out and they will pick up on it? And they will just do it? Yeah, absolutely. Whatever you're missing, do it. Ask for it, do it.

Rachel Richards: 27:40

Yes. And in the, in the, in a restaurant, you know, when somebody's coming around and clearing your yard or something, it doesn't matter that you're paying them. You just say thank you so much. Just show that gratitude so your kids can actually hear it. And notice when other people are doing things a little bit over and above what's

Susie Asli: 27:58

required. Yeah. And we don't have to be like weird and Pollyanna. Everything's amazing. And everyone's so lovely. Because that would be really nauseating. But just when it matters,

Rachel Richards: 28:07

yeah. Yeah. And even if your schedule is overcrowded, your kids are stressed, you know, and you're using money to try and make them feel more loved. Just notice that notice and think, How can I how can I switch that slightly, and you have real grandparent and you don't get much time with them? And you really want them to see how much you love them? Once again, asking them specifically what is it that would really make you happy that isn't going to cost me that was? And you know, and say an event would also be you know, something? We could do something together? Because quite often they don't have adults who have think time for

Susie Asli: 28:43

cinema or something together? Yeah, yeah. And at the end of the day, when we practice gratitude, because it is a practice, it's a way of being it's a choice that we make, and we can kind of emphasize it or not emphasize it, we can have a journal, a gratitude journal, we can think of things we're grateful for before we go to bed. And when we do that, and we embody it, it releases the same chemicals that are in antidepressant. So what's to lose, guys?

Rachel Richards: 29:07

And also just if they can actually spend time with people who aren't as fortunate? Yes, yes. Rather than being in a bubble, realizing, and I've had my kids come home and say, oh, you know, such and such has got this amazing. They've got this, that and the other and my wonderful friend Jen has always said, Yeah, we should be so so happy for them. Good for them. Yeah, anyway.

Susie Asli: 29:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But we learned from contrast,

Rachel Richards: 29:35

and we do learn contrast. Yeah. So do you have some great examples of how you've helped your team develop gratitude? What do you do in your home when it comes to Christmas giving you know, this is a massive topic. When you open the presents like oh, yeah, we'd love to hear your experiences. If you've enjoyed this episode, then why not help other parents? Tell them, subscribe to our podcast and it would be a massive bonus if you could leave a review. You can also sign enough to receive all the latest at our own website, which is www dot teenager's untangled.com. On there you'll find a blog reviews links to every episode and easy ways to connect with us both. Now Suzy has her own website which is

Susie Asli: 30:14

www dot a mindful hyphen life. co.UK.

Rachel Richards: 30:20

Fantastic. That's it for now. Goodbye.

Unknown: 30:22

Goodbye