#8 – The Man Trap: DOT AND BUBBLE

[00:00:00] JOSH: Hello and welcome to Tardis Rubbish, I'm Josh, and today we're talking about Dot and Bubble, episode 5 of the new season of Doctor Who, and joining me today, my long time friend and even longer time Doctor Who fan, welcome Guy.

[00:00:15] GUY: Hello everybody.

[00:00:17] JOSH: And he is a frequent contributor to the Secret Origins of Mint Condition podcast, Trash Compactor, a mostly Star Wars podcast, and perhaps creator of a mystery project he may or may not be working on in secret, I'm not sure. Welcome John!

[00:00:31] JOHN: Hey everyone.

[00:00:33] JOSH: And she is a comedian, writer, author of official Star Wars reference books, has bylines in Nerdist, Fandom, and Sci Fi. com, and played an incarnation of the Doctor himself for three seasons on the Game of Rassilon podcast. Welcome Riley!

[00:00:49] RILEY: Hello! Thanks for having me.

[00:00:51] JOSH: So glad to have you. So, Riley, uh, before we get to Dot and Bubble, we have a tradition here at Tardis Rubbish. When someone makes their first appearance, we ask them who their favorite doctor is for a sort of calibration.

[00:01:04] Um, so Riley, who is your favorite doctor and why does it have to be Colin Baker because you interviewed him at Gallifrey One?

[00:01:09] RILEY: First of all, how dare you ask me such a personal question. I can't believe you would do that. No, I, Josh asked me ahead of time if that was an okay question and I was like, yeah, of course. So what if instead I was like, no, it's horrible. Uh, my favorite doctor, well, yes, my favorite doctor that I've talked to personally, of course, is Colin Baker because he was such a delightful human being and I had such a great time talking to him.

[00:01:30] Uh, but, which is also Somewhat of a controversial thing to say because I have also interviewed David Tennant, Jodie Whittaker, and Matt Smith. But they were all in a setting like this where we were on a Zoom call together. So, until I talk to them in person, aside from the photo I got with Matt Smith, I will still say Colin Baker in person.

[00:01:48] My favorite Doctor, though, is Peter Capaldi. I'm just a really, really big Twelfth Doctor fan. Um, and there's a personal connection to it for me as well because sort of the tail end of that Matt Smith run with the imaginal, uh, remember all the people that used to be followed by the beginning of, of Capaldi's era with the like, I'm standing right in front of you and you can't see me and deep breath was the same kind of like calendar year in which I was starting to, I had been out as trans since 2009, but I hadn't decided to actually fully transition and make, and like that kind of stuff.

[00:02:22] So that year I was in that process of making appointments and talking to doctors and like really starting to like, planned to start taking hormones and stuff like that. And that episode, deep breath just happened to air like right before I was gonna have my first like appointment with an actual doctor about it.

[00:02:38] And so it hit me like a ton of bricks, that like line of I'm right in front of you and you can't see me. It was like, that is my life, you know? So I have a tattoo. Uh, on my wrist here that says Deep Breath, and it's written like in a clockwork font, and it has like Hidden 12 and the B. And so that's like, I got that for myself when I've been on hormones for about a year, and it was kind of a, uh, like a gift to myself to celebrate that first year on it.

[00:03:01] And, uh, And then, uh, Steven Moffat came to Gallifrey One a couple years later, and I very drunkenly and intimidatingly cornered him in the hotel bar, and he'd be like, I just want you to know, the thing that you wrote, it just invents emotion, like, you know, you could just see it in his eyes, like he was not prepared for the level of emotional onslaught that he was gonna get from me.

[00:03:21] But, yeah, so, there's a lot, there's a lot about Peter's Doctor with, uh, Kind of beginning not sure who he was and kind of having that arc of that first season of like, Am I a good man? The importance is that I try and that kind of thing. And then going all the way through to the end of his last series where he has that whole speech about just being kind and like that kind of thing really like stuck with me a lot.

[00:03:46] And so that, that, you know, run fast, laugh hard, be kind is something that, Especially in the years following his run, I was really good at taking to heart. And I think maybe now, post pandemic and group trauma vibes, I maybe could do a little more work at being good at again. But I think that that was still, to this day, to me, that really encapsulates what I think of as The Doctor.

[00:04:12] And when I played The Doctor, I very much took that approach. To heart for my doctor a little bit too, even though my doctor was more, uh, mathematically, like, mechanically, it was more based on Tom Baker's doctor than Peter Capaldi's doctor, but I think it was really hard for me not to feel like Peter, and to some degree, Jodie Whittaker, channeling through me as well, so.

[00:04:29] JOSH: That's a beautiful answer. And, and also Peter Capaldi is the most common answer to that question on this podcast. which I think, says something because, his doctor has only become more and more popular as, as time has gone on, I think.

[00:04:43] RILEY: I think he was largely unappreciated during his actual run, and it's nice, it's nice to hear and see people talk about him more fondly, and I hope that he kind of gets that message to him as well, like I hope that people hear, cause I, I, I kinda get the sense that his departure was maybe not really his call as much as, like, it was, like,

[00:05:04] I don't know if it was quite as bad as the Colin Baker, but it does feel, or, or the Eccleston, but it does feel like he was a little bit sad that it happened so abruptly, and, and he, like, so.

[00:05:14] I think that's a big part of why he doesn't want to come back for anything, although I kind of respect his, like, his, from using his own words about it, I respect his explanation of like, if I keep coming back and playing this character, then it's a character on a TV show, but if I don't come back, he's just an alien out there saving the world or whatever.

[00:05:30] And I respect that. Kind of got a similar point of view with the Doctor that I played on Game of Rassilon. I came back for our finale episode, which is a multi Doctor story, and I mostly did that for the fans because they wanted to hear the three of us. It was me and Dan Peck and Ben Padden as a new Doctor.

[00:05:47] But, if I never came back as my Doctor, I would have been fine, because I really did feel like once I made the choice to regenerate her and pass the torch to Dan Peck, I really felt like, I mean, I'm always going to be the Doctor in my weird way from my podcast, but my Doctor's time is done, and I've passed it on to somebody else to play it, and I think Peter has a similar mentality for him, and so I respect that.

[00:06:09] JOSH: No, absolutely. while it makes me sad to thought that we'll never see Peter Capaldi as The Doctor again, when you hear his explanation, it is hard to, argue.

[00:06:18] RILEY: I hope we can get him back someday in a Tom Baker, uh, movie. Curator esque way, or like, even the way, like, Colin Baker has popped in to do, like, not necessarily a Big Finish, but like, during the 50th, when he had, like, he was the announcer for, like, all the anniversary, like, voiceover stuff, and I would like, I'd like to see maybe Peter do something like that in the

[00:06:35] JOSH: Yeah. And I mean, with the advent of the memory TARDIS, like, all bets are off. I mean, you can return in, in just about any capacity and you don't really need, uh, a good and universe reason.

[00:06:46] because we have that built in, but let's get to talking about Dot and Bubble. Let's start with John, I'm gonna, uh, throw to you. Uh, but, uh, well,

[00:06:56] JOHN: so I love the episode. I absolutely love this episode. It caught me by surprise. Um, it wasn't the episode I thought it was going to be, um, even from the first few minutes. Um, and it felt like it was, you know, we started off with our sort of, you're talking of the season of, uh, we're going back to the Russell Davies era in a sense, but also going forward, it felt again like it was his own craft at this because it for me harkened back to season one.

[00:07:27] I think the Bad Wolf episode when they're doing the reality TV show Big Brother esque thing. And that's initially what I thought this just was. And it was to start and that and that was a great starting off point because I felt like, okay, this, this is, this is going to be topical. This is relevant to where we're, we're at, uh, as, as, you know, media consumers today, um, and as a society today.

[00:07:49] And it was just a fun, crazy, but I was terrified. I was genuinely terrified. And I'm, I was, I was getting in my own head in the middle of the episode. Like there's nothing like particularly, you know, Super gory. There wasn't anything really, really classically scary, uh, that you would have, you know, on paper. But I was terrified, uh, during this episode for the characters, for the concept itself. I don't know, it just had me on edge. I found myself towards, I think, the, uh, Like the three quarter mark of the episode. I was like, wow, my, my heart's racing. And I don't know why this isn't like watching, you know, Alien or a movie like that, where you're just gonna be scared of something, the dark, there was a something existentially scary about this, even though it was a very sort of light.

[00:08:36] Styled episode, and it was that, oh my god, he nailed what we're, what we're on the verge of right now with our, with our interaction with our devices and social media, and then literally just being wiped out of existence by scary monsters because of that. I mean, what, what a neat sort of joining those two ideas, but I don't know why that, that main, that main, uh, sort of, uh, inhabitant of, uh, of, of the city there, Lindy, uh, Lindy Pepper Bean.

[00:09:10] I keep on hearing it like Lindy Who from, uh, Dr. Seuss she was this, like, very clear archetype of wealthy, disconnected social media influencers of our age. That is what she typifies and manifests so well, which is why I was so profoundly uncomfortable by, with her character.

[00:09:30] Really made me, You know, like, Oh God, I don't like this person, but they're also just doing what they're doing. What's, what's it going to be about? And then what happens later in the episode, which we can get to is even more of a twist. But I sort of felt for it. I was like, what are you going through? What, what is this?

[00:09:44] What is this little world you live in? That's a bubble, this dot and bubble. You just literally live in a bubble. And then people are disappearing and everything else. I thought, Oh God, this is, this is, this is what it's all about. This, this is TikTok. This is Alice Huckley and Brave New World. This is, um, pandemic This is all those things grouped together with monsters and a lack of agency, a lack of, of, of, you know, even individual awareness.

[00:10:10] And yet it was just a very basic Doctor Who episode. I mean, I don't know how they did it because I didn't realize it was happening until I was well into the episode. I'm like, okay, this is scary. I don't like it. I'm not comfortable. And damn, this is good. Maybe that's what the episode's tagline should be.

[00:10:22] It's like, I don't like this. I'm uncomfortable. But it's damn good. Um, and then by the end I was just blown away by, by what they did with the twisty ending. And for an episode that was otherwise Doctor Lite, again, in the sense of it was The Doctor and Ruby on screens most of the time. you didn't have direct physical interactions with them.

[00:10:41] and to see his raw emotion at the end, that got me. And I, I can't wait to talk about that because that, that was the moment that brought it all together. And I, I just sat there like, okay, well. I thought this was going to be just sort of a filler episode. I really thought it was gonna be a filler episode based on the trailer, um, and it was a lot more than that.

[00:10:59] It was commentary, it was scary, it was fun, it was silly, um, it was, it was all those things, and wow, I mean, you know, we're back, and This means there's no sophomore slump. Uh, usually, you know, coming off of the first episode where we were sort of like, well, all right, Space Baby's fun, but not necessarily the best or everybody's favorite episode by any means, you know, I thought there was going to be a dip after having a good episode of the Maestro.

[00:11:22] And then we had back to back three amazing episodes. So it's just been on the incline. So even if we don't get great episodes, the rest of the season, we've already done pretty well. And that's, that makes me really, really happy. I'm like, good job. Like, good job. Everybody's just been amazing. I

[00:11:36] JOSH: I think I might be the biggest Space Babies fan I have encountered so far, but I digress.

[00:11:42] Uh, Riley, what were your overall thoughts of Dot and Bubble?

[00:11:45] RILEY: Yeah, overall, I think I agree. I'm, I'm, I'm very positive on it. I think that it's, I agree with this kind of, Incline of quality that's been happening. I think I might put 73 Yards overall just a little bit above this one, but It's almost the reverse of the two, whereas I think this one's ending really kicks it to a higher level.

[00:12:08] Whereas 73 Yards, definitely the ending felt a little bit rushed for what it I'm not as critical of the ending of 73 Yards as a lot of people were, but I It all makes sense to me and it's fine, but it was later in Oh, oh, it's over. Like, whereas, like, this one very much was like, Wow, it feels like we should be wrapping up just ye Oh my god!

[00:12:25] Like, so it had that kind of I, I was watching it. With a friend of the show, Michael Nixon and Dan Peck. And we were watching it all together. And it was like the three of us were watching it. We were riffing and goofing on it the whole time. Like friends do when watching a show. And then it was like you couldn't hear a pin drop at the end.

[00:12:40] Or you could hear a pin drop because we were just all like, Oh my God. But yeah, we'll talk more about that as we go on, but I do want to say, just for your audience who are watching the video, I did not intentionally cosplay as a resident of Finetime with the shiny face and stuff. I just happened to have been at WeHo, at West Hollywood Pride today, and so I have glitter on my face, and I have just recently colored my hair, and so, yeah, I'm wearing very, like, gay clothing.

[00:13:03] It is not, uh, weird, uh, vaguely Whoville kind of costuming that the people Finetime have. And Yeah, I think at first I wasn't as warm to the episode at the very beginning because what I thought originally was being done was just this kind of, like you mentioned, the long game, the TV episode, the Satellite Five, and that's what it's called, right?

[00:13:30] The Long Game? But, um, am I right about that? Yeah, okay. And it felt like, okay, so is this just kind of that thing again, but now you've put in social media instead of TV? And before it even aired, there was a lot of comparisons to Black Mirror with this, which is interesting to me because I've often heard Black Mirror described as what if the Doctor never landed on a world that was messed up by something technological?

[00:13:55] And that's like, so it was really interesting to then see an episode of the Doctor landing in an episode because it really much felt like Uh, like, like what 200 million merits, uh, compared to, um, nosedive. I felt like those two combined a little bit. I don't know, I guess I'm, if I thought originally when I originally thought this was just gimme an episode that was like a scathing attack on Gen Z using the internet too much.

[00:14:16] I was kind of a little bored by that because I'm like, that's a kind of a generational old man yells at cloud kind of thing. And so I wasn't really excited for Russell to take that on as a thing. Uh, but. I don't feel like the episode was even at all trying to do that, and I think that like, that's maybe a veneer that it feels like at first, but I saw a really good commentary online that I, I don't want to take credit for, but I can't remember the name of the person who, who mentioned it, but it was basically, it was that, What was really being discussed was sort of the echo chamber that can be created when you're only surrounded by people who have a similar ideology to you.

[00:14:52] And that's what the actual danger is, and this is like this echo chamber that will prevent you from seeing what's happening around you, which was kind of what was more happening here. It was idea that the only way she could even cope is by like talking to her friends, and she can't like think outside that box at all.

[00:15:08] Um, So that was really interesting. I agree, like, Lindy was such an interesting character because you kind of hate her pretty quickly and there's a lot of microaggressions towards The Doctor and things like that that are happening. There's a lot of classism really early on. And by the nature of this, this character.

[00:15:28] Social media, this dot and bubble is that it's all so close to her. Like, we're so close to her face all the time. And that there was like an uncomfortable level of intimacy with her. Which I think definitely is like underscoring the commentary of what's going on with it. But, I, yeah, so that was really interesting to me.

[00:15:48] I, I'm trying to think of any other like cursory overall thoughts I have. I agree with like The peril, like, I just, I really like these slow moving creatures that, that, like, you can easily get away from, but you don't because you're not paying attention to them, like, that's always, even when it's not using a social media filter thing, the idea of something that's on your periphery that can kind of get you when you're not paying attention always kind of creeps me out, and so that was kind of a fun thing, um, I like that about it, I like just how ridiculously, like, not, like, the Ricky September was just, like, a song and and the way she's like, oh my god, like she's just so excited and it's just a guy who is asupposed to be hot.

[00:16:30] I don't see it, but I don't go here So maybe that's why but I was like this guy's supposed to be a heartthrob really and then And then the music and the oh my god is something that's very fun and I just Something very funny to me And I think played just enough and then dropped was the whole like inability to walk forward like know how to move in different directions without a thing telling her to do it was so interesting to me because I'm like, it really reminds me of The way people start changing their language to correct towards an algorithm so much on social media that then when you're talking to them in person, they start to use, even on a minor level, the fact that people will say LOL in conversation sometimes, or like OMG, like people will use like internet abbreviations to talk.

[00:17:13] I feel like that's like a heightening of that kind of thing. And I don't even see it as like a purely scathing criticism of that as much as like, that's just a natural thing that happens when you do those kinds of things. So Yeah, all of that really built in and then I'm sure we'll talk more about the ending specifically as we get to it.

[00:17:30] But, I do think it's really interesting. I noticed this on the rewatch that, cause obviously we'll talk about the fact that this was like one of Ncuti's first days filming his season as The Doctor. I think they did the end of the Toymaker thing first. But, cause that was still their previous schedule. But, Yeah, this was like one of the first days of shooting in Block 1, and so this was like one of his first days as The Doctor in his run.

[00:17:56] And I do think that his costume is maybe the most traditionally Doctor ish costumes that he's been wearing this season. We've had a couple of shots of that long leather jacket, but usually it ends up just being him like in a stylish pair of pants and either like a sweater. We had the awesome suit in the Maestro episode.

[00:18:12] We obviously had the great kilt in the Christmas special. I guess the Christmas special also did have that kind of sweater and long coat vibe as well, which is pretty Doctor y. But yeah, that's kind of like somewhat mismatched coat and pants and like a sweater. Obviously it still looks amazing on him because the man's like made of style.

[00:18:28] But it did, it did feel like, oh, I think there's an intentionality to him looking the most Doctor y he can while all this is happening. And those little things also really jumped out at me.

[00:18:40] JOSH: No, that's very interesting, and actually according to The Doctor Who Unleashed for this episode, this was, that scene was literally the first scene that he shot. So, so he shot the regeneration or, uh, the bi generation from, The Giggle, uh, but when he showed up for his season, that was the very first scene that he shot as, The Doctor, which, um, we will get into the ending a little, more in a minute, but, um, Guy, what were your overall thoughts about Dot and Bubble?

[00:19:08] GUY: this was almost a close 10 for me. And I think what kept me from doing a complete 10, and was the fact that this was the second, show in a row, which was a Doctor

[00:19:20] Lite episode. And I understand the, the, the ins and outs of, you know, the filming schedule and, and, and he, you know, uh, Ncuti couldn't be there to, to film because he was still committed to other, uh, the Sex Education. Um, it just happened. So was almost frustrating, you know, to think that this is an eight episode season and really we're only getting six solid episodes with The Doctor.

[00:19:48] Now, it was a solid episode. I liked the look, I liked the feel, I like, I think her name is Callie Cook as Lindy my first impression is this girl is vapid and insipid, and I do not like her, and I thought that she pulled off, like, I didn't, and she was just, it was just, it was a gross world, and it's a world that I, I see, in that I, I got away from Twitter, because, I, I, actually, I've also gotten away from Instagram.

[00:20:26] And I got away from, uh, uh, Facebook. I don't do it. Maybe it's just my age, but I see, I see where people are constantly on their Twitter. Actually, last night I work in a restaurant. That's why I'm in my little memory tardis right now. but I was working last night and this, uh, Trio of, I think they're just a little bit younger than me.

[00:20:52] They were in their forties. This, this trio of individuals came in and they were literally from the moment they stepped foot into the restaurant. And to when I sat them in our cafe area, they were live streaming their entire meal and their entire conversation. And they were not only having conversation between the three of themselves, they were having conversations with people who are sending messages to them that you could see in real time.

[00:21:22] And it was really kind of obnoxious. Put it down. I just want to say, put it down. Have a meal, be present. But instead they were like live streaming. They took a tour of the restaurant to show people the pastries, the desserts, the interior. I was like, this is so what I just watched on Disney plus in real time.

[00:21:47] I was just like, this is so bonkers. And I just see it get, it's just going to get worse. For me, for me and my, it's just, that's, that's not a good thing. But for these people on this planet, it was a great thing. It was how they managed their lives. I'm surprised there weren't very, there were no, nobody was heavy. I mean, I didn't think, it didn't look like that they got out and did much. Yet everybody, there was no overweight folks.

[00:22:13] JOSH: well, no, I mean, they all look very similar, and I think that's intentional.

[00:22:17] GUY: Right. I mean, and we'll get to that, uh, shortly. But you know, so I don't want to be harping on the real world.

[00:22:24] I, I, I really, I love this episode. I would have loved it more had it not been another Doctor Lite episode. Um, I like the commentary. I like Callie. I liked the fact that she actually, I started caring about her. I did start thinking, Oh my God, she's going to go through this wonderful character arc and change, and she's going to learn and then bam.

[00:22:47] Oh my God. That it was like whiplash. That moment. Can we talk about it now? Can I say the moment where she flippin'

[00:22:56] JOHN: Yeah.

[00:22:56] GUY: betrays the, the one person that's gonna save her, she, wow. I let out a, I let out a what? The, what? The f audibly in my, my living room. I'm like, what the, what? What? I was shocked.

[00:23:15] Absolutely gobsmacked. Because I didn't see it coming. I didn't want it to go there. I expect it to go there. And quite frankly, it should, in my, in, in how guys thinks about Doctor Who, it should not have gone there. And the fact that it did not go there was bravo. But my God, what a despicable, dis, disgusting, it's just, and, and to, to, which made the Doctor's desire to save them regardless they could think what they wanted.

[00:23:50] They could say whatever they wanted to say. He just wanted to save them even more hit home. And it was like, and yes, he does cry again. And I think I'm going to, I brought this up last week or two weeks ago that every episode he's crying, um, which is very strange. Uh, I mean, I, I'm, I'm a crier. I don't know if I cry a lot.

[00:24:12] All the time, but he's definitely, he wears, The Doctor now wears his heart on his sleeve and uh, he's constantly like, there should be always a puddle at his feet of tears. But yeah, anyway, I thought that it was a fantastic episode. I think it was one of the best. Um, one of the top five, five Russell T Davies episodes I've ever seen, you I like that re right, right there, there, because it could have gone off the rails really easily. Um, there, there were a lot of points at which it felt like, oh, this is something that could just become really a, a trope could have been, or it could been like a screed against Gen Z instead of actually, uh, uh, delving into, you know., Well, this is what it's like living in a bubble, but this is also who these people are as a result of what created them. You know, you get that brief, uh, appearance of the home world before it, you, you find out that there's no one left. And the mother, of course, the twist, , you know, and they're beginning to become aware of that, which is a neat part that I wanna delve a little bit more into, is that the doctor's noticing, uh, that, uh, uh.

[00:25:17] Susan Twist is showing up in all these different personas, uh, and I think that's, that's going to be a cool build up. But even that aside, this could have, this could have gone woefully wrong really easily, because it's, it can be silly, it can be, you know, I think if we didn't have that shock of, uh, Lindy Pepper being showing her true self, and, you know, And that was what it was.

[00:25:44] What you initially thought was these are just people who are in a bubble, they're sheltered, they're basic. As she refers to herself, I'm so stupid, I'm so stupid, because you literally can't walk in a line without having arrows pointing her in a direction, so you feel this pity, you feel this sadness for, you know, almost a creature that had been kept in a cage its entire life. And then you realize there's a lot more to these people, and there's an element of chosen cruelty in their existence. They must have had a life before they came here, only people who are 17 to 27 are there, their parents paid for it, so you have the extra special package, uh, for it. So there's, so there's, there's the hint at something bigger that made them who they are, without saying we're going to go, you know, have to spend five hours.

[00:26:30] You know, dissecting and discussing. It was just very subtly drawn to where you get it. You understand who these people are, and then their cruelty makes sense. Her cruelty, as shocking as it was, because I, Guy did the same thing. I'm sitting there, my living room couch, and I, and I paused it for a moment, because did that just happen?

[00:26:47] And I'm watching it alone, so I'm talking to myself, like a crazy person, you know, just like, okay, well, this is why I need to be on the podcast, because what? Yeah, what the eff, like, what was this? Why would, why would she have done that? I understand, like, the self preservation, but the, but the coldness that followed it, the lies, the just, the shutdown, and then you realize, well, that's the nature of, I think, what he's critiquing with what an influencer can be at its worst, is that it is purely, An image.

[00:27:15] It's purely a presentation of the outside world. There's not much substance except the idea to get something out of it. And that's the dark side of social media. That's the dark side of, of, you know, so much of what we're seeing in the last 10 years of the tech we have around us. You know, it's just, well, you're only as useful as a number of followers.

[00:27:38] I mean, you're only as useful as whatever you can, you can offer me. And that's what she was. And The Doctor? Only as useful as, well, he could also save her life. , and that made me really sad because in it for a moment, I thought, well, yeah, this could be a redemption arc. And I said, yeah, that's not what Russell Davies was going for.

[00:27:55] This wasn't about these people being redeemed. It was a critique. It was saying that they're making a constant choice to continually be these people and the ending was them outright saying, we realize how, you know, like they just lost everything. They lost their homeworld. They lost their city. They lost their family.

[00:28:11] Everything that should have made them who they were, and they doubled down on it, and said we are, we are better than everybody else, we're just going to recreate that somewhere in the wilds, and then the word came, contamination. The idea that The Doctor and Ruby would be a contamination to them. Ooh, I was, I was angry, and where The Doctor ends with a tear, I found myself with rage. Um, I'm ending that episode in rage, and that's, and so I had this thought, as those scenes were unfolding, I said, well, this proves that I'm not as good as The Doctor. I'm not as good as this. You know, person is, because I would be there and I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be, you know, being all, you know, better than thou, like, how dare you not accept my help.

[00:28:52] But I don't think I would have been able to not just say, well, fine. Then, for lack of a better term, fuck off and die. Like, go do your thing. I would have been petty about it because their cruelty was on such display. And The Doctor, you know, He acknowledges their cruelty, he acknowledges who and what they were, and he's still willing to save them, and, and, yeah, and he didn't even bring up, he's not like, I'm The Doctor, time and space is at my disposal, like, he, he's not even, he's not even in a league that could be compared to them, and he doesn't pull that card out, he just wants to save them.

[00:29:27] The best for them. And that's that level of kindness. I love what you said earlier about Pierre Capaldi's Doctor. And that final sort of speech as he figures out who he is at the end of his first season. And that just brings it right back to here. That continuity of who the Doctor is. As a person, as, as, as this character that we see. Try to do the best you can. Be kind. And even if it's thrown back in your face, and I, man, I just, I don't feel that good. And I feel like that's, that's an episode that leaves you, you know, wanting more because you feel seen as well. Like, I feel like The Doctor also saw me in that moment.

[00:30:05] As much as I'm offended at these people, I realize I couldn't do what he does.

[00:30:10] JOSH: I want to come back to that for a second because, friend of the show, James, whose favorite doctor is also Peter Capaldi, he asked me, Do you think that Peter Capaldi would have reacted in the same way as Ncuti did, or would he have done something closer to what you're describing, John, you know, where he's like, I gave you a chance, but this is your own damn fault and I gotta get away from you. You had a shot and you blew it. James said that, he was talking only New Who Doctors, but He thought 13 would have reacted the same way as Ncuti did. He said he wasn't sure about Capaldi and he didn't think 9 would continue. To offer his help after that.

[00:30:50] I just thought that was interesting.

[00:30:51] RILEY: I, think for Capaldi, I think it would depend on which part of Capaldi's run. I think if you're talking about, like, series, uh, 8 especially, when you've got episodes like Kill the Moon and stuff like that, I think, I think a Kill the Moon Peter Capaldi would probably have said something about putting brains and, and, or something like that and run off, similar to how Eccleston might have said something about stupid apes or whatever.

[00:31:12] Um.

[00:31:13] But I think that Series 10 Capaldi might have been a little bit more likely to beg to help someone. Because the same guy who stood between Clara and, so it's a Series 9, but the Zygon Clara and Kate and like, try to stop them from blowing each other up because he was just like I've been here I've seen what happens and you don't want to go for this That might have been the doctor that would do what Ncuti's Doctor did here So yeah, I think it's really interesting to think about that.

[00:31:41] And I think Ncuti's Doctor. I don't know I I don't know. It's tough because It this is tough because we don't have a black person on the panel here and I feel like we're all non black people talking about what but I think as far as like politics, I think like You There is a really interesting conversation.

[00:31:56] I've seen some, some, uh, some BIPOC voices talking about this on, on social media a little bit, so, and I think there's some good voices to listen to on that, about how much the end of this episode does lean into respectability politics, and the idea of like, you have to have this black character suddenly be like, no, I want to help you.

[00:32:12] I'm, I'm, I'm still going to help you no matter what. Like, I think there's like, Like, I think that if we'd had, if we'd had a Ncuti Doctor who was like, Fine, screw you, I'm out of here. I think, like, there would have been such a strange, aggressive backlash to that. And so the fact that the show still needs to tow that line feels really interesting to me.

[00:32:29] I'm sorry, you had a point you were getting to. I jumped in to talk about Peter Capaldi and then I went down a rabbit hole. So let me,

[00:32:34] JOSH: No, I think that that's an excellent point. For those of you who are listening on the audio only version, the four of us are all white.

[00:32:40] And I just want to make that clear that we don't. Have the perspective of a person of color, that context, but um, You know, you mentioned, though, about Capaldi, are we talking series 8 or season 10? Season 10 is also the season in Thin Ice where he, he punched a 19th century racist in the face for being racist.

[00:32:57] So, I'm still not sure, you know, which Capaldi we would have gotten in that moment. Um, you know, this episode, for me, I got like, Paradise Towers and Happiness Patrol sort of vibes.

[00:33:09] because they both operate in that same way as this, where mean, it's a serious story, but the trappings of it are very silly. I liked the episode.

[00:33:19] I was on board with what it was doing. I think, like you, Riley, I was kind of expecting like, are we just, taking the piss out of social media and, Zoomers and stuff and I was like, but then, you know, it was much more nuanced than that. It had a lot to say about class. But the ending really, bumped it up to a new level for me.

[00:33:39] Um, it kind of made the episode for me. I was also a little like, oh, we're doing, Doctor Lite for a second week in a row. This and 73 Yards were shot in the same production block. So, they didn't have Ncuti for a lot of time. And I think it's a really actually clever solution to allow him to be as present as he was in the episode with the device of The appearing on the screen because you could shoot all of his scenes in a day,

[00:34:06] GUY: Necessity definitely was the mother of the invention of, of these last two episodes. Don't get me wrong, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't think it was terrible I just thought it was, it was just very apparent.

[00:34:20] JOSH: real quick before I want to move on to talk about the ending in more detail and what you all thought of that. But, um, I was kind of spoiled that the ending had something to do with, you know, Racism. I mean, this is what I get for not watching the episode when it drops and not staying off social media.

[00:34:35] so, when I was watching it, I kept looking for it. And I actually thought when, Ricky September showed up, I thought it was really The Doctor doing some hologram projection because he, figured out she wouldn't, you Listen to him otherwise. because like he said some very Doctor ish things when he showed up

[00:34:54] he had a hero's moment and he was like, you have to trust me. And like, I'm going to save you. And I was like, who talks like that? Except, except the Doctor.

[00:35:02] GUY: And, and Pex, from, Paradise Towers. And Pex, yes.

[00:35:05] JOSH: Pex lives.

[00:35:06] Um, what did we all make of the ending of foregrounding The Doctor's skin color like that so early in the run? I mean, I find it an interesting comparison to, the way Chris Chibnall handled the first woman Doctor. The only time he brought it up, or the only time it, like, factored in in any real way was I think The Witchfinders?

[00:35:30] RILEY: was the big one for sure.

[00:35:31] JOSH: yeah, and that was kind of subtle, it seems to me the approach of the Chibnall era was like, not to make a big deal out of it.

[00:35:39] RILEY: I don't know if I agree with you that it was that subtle. They tried to drown her as a witch, that was a pretty big thing to happen. And also, like, the king wouldn't respect her authority on the subjects because they, like, he assumed that she was the assistant to the actual witch finder who was Graham.

[00:35:54] So that was, I think that, like, it wasn't as completely on the nose as this, but they, again, they did try to kill her as a witch.

[00:36:00] So that definitely was not that subtle, but I This one, and who knows how it might have been if he had been in the whole episode, and not just on a screen, I, to quickly touch on the Doctor Lite thing, I just want to say that this one I think, last episode felt more like a Blink Doctor Lite episode, but this one felt more like The Christmas Invasion, where it's like the Doctor only really shows up at the end.

[00:36:24] This was a little bit of Blink because of the Doctor on the screens, but when he does show up, it is like an icon, it's like a moment. of the Doctor that's going to be remembered for this Doctor in a way that's like, when Tennant comes in at the end of Christmas Invasion, it's like he's charging in on a horse basically, like not really, but like, to save the day, whereas this is like, this is a moment where we really said like, we just peel a layer off of Ncuti's Doctor immediately here.

[00:36:47] but yeah, on the actual topic at hand, like, you know, I've heard a lot of commentary of people being like, Did you not notice the casting ahead of time, like all the people? And I saw some pretty good criticism of that, of that pushback. It's like, yeah, but this show has also had a lot of eras that have been overwhelmingly white to begin with.

[00:37:05] So it's kind of hard to be like, oh, this is the one Doctor Who where the whiteness stands out to you. I definitely noticed the casting early on, but not from a racial perspective, which I felt silly about later when I realized it, I saw it more like, why is everyone dressing like their characters in The Sims? Like, it felt like everyone was this very And I guess that is also a degree of like a white supremacy to it, but it was all very like Leave it to Beaver, like, like, like, glammed up, like, everyone had on, everyone had very shiny, like, makeup, which is why I made that joke earlier about my own appearance today, but we had, everybody was super, super shiny makeup, and very, like, perfect hair, and stuff like that, and so it all, everyone felt a little bit cartoonish, a little bit like Riverdale, kind of, like, the, the comics kind of way, so that was more distracting to me than the fact that it was just all white people, uh, But re watching it, there are so many little clues like that.

[00:38:03] And then especially, the one that I noticed coming back to it was when the Doctor was talking about how good the security is for Finetime, and he's like, It won't let me in. Like, he didn't say us, he didn't say it wouldn't let him and Ruby in, it just says it won't let me in. And who knows if Ruby tried to get in too, or if she just didn't try and the Doctor couldn't get in.

[00:38:21] But it made you go, oh, Finetime will not allow the Doctor into its space. And there's even a comment from one of the people when they're fleeing of like, Part of what we're here for is to uphold this perfect idea of what, like, like Finetime is intended to be, like, almost like a Hitler Youth type thing.

[00:38:36] It's It's like, this is supposed to be our perfect utopia of whiteness. And that's so disgustingly awful, but yeah, the, so those kinds of things. I, I think there's like, I've, I've heard some criticism about it in regards to the racism being almost just a bit too cartoonish to be something that's like taken as seriously as it is.

[00:38:55] But, um, I've also heard like this is maybe like having a black writer involved might have been a little bit like better because there's a lot of, there's a lot of work by black writers that touches on a lot of the same kind of thing in a way that is more accurate to their actual lived experiences with it.

[00:39:14] Whereas this does feel like somebody who has taken in a lot of lessons about it and is trying to write better, that perspective, but it is still coming from a white perspective. So it's still a white person trying to tell a story about what racism is like. And that's like a little bit, so like there are some points where it's a little bit still not quite there.

[00:39:35] I also do think there is value to stories like this. Like, I liked this episode a lot and I did feel impacted by it. But like, I also, like, it's kind of like when you watch Zootopia, you can't be like, Oh, this is a perfect analogy for the way that race relations work in society. But it's also like, yeah, but it is a good way to like show it to children and go get a basic understanding of it.

[00:39:57] Or, like last year after the Barbie movie came out, I sat in on a lot of conversations about the Barbie movie that were all like, well, you know. Really just never went past Feminism 100 or Feminism 101 and I was like, well but it's also the Barbie movie. Like the fact that it's also the Barbie movie like the fact that it's the fact that we could have a discussion about how the Barbie movie wasn't feminist enough is wild to me because no one ever was.

[00:40:18] , prior to the trailers and Greta Gerwig's involvement, if you had told me five years ago we were gonna get a Barbie movie, none of us would say like, oh, I bet it's gonna be a wildly feminist epic about, like, society. So, I, the fact that Doctor Who rarely actually addresses race head on, the fact that we got a thing, I, I, I acknowledge that it's really not perfect.

[00:40:41] Like, there's a lot of things that it could be doing better. But I think as like dipping a toe in the water. I think it, it's commendable. I would like to see them maybe try to do a little bit more. I don't want this to be the only time in Ncuti's run where we are on where the race element matters or there's an impact for it.

[00:40:59] And hopefully we became a different other ways. But yeah, I feel like that was actually, I think, a failing of the Jodie era to not. Draw on it more and make it matter more because like why what was the point of having a female doctor if you weren't going to Like lean into the fact that this gives you the opportunity to tell different kinds of stories And I think that Ncuti's especially like even even Devil's Chord Which is a wildly fun episode, there's a lot going on with it, but you're telling me that The Doctor experienced not even a drop of racism in, like, 1960s England?

[00:41:34] Like, that's a little bit wild to me, and the fact that, like, that doesn't seem to play into it. you know, it's a whole episode, it'd be hard to shove that into that episode, but it is also weird to hand wave it away as not being a problem at all, so. I do think that like, then being like, oh, we created this hyperly white supremacist future that he goes to, and that's when we'll deal with it, feels a little bit easy, because I feel like there's gonna be a lot of stuff.

[00:42:00] Like, I think that, even in Jodie's era, we got the Rosa Parks episode, which dealt

[00:42:04] with racism a little bit more head on. And in that episode, we had that great conversation with Yaz and Ryan, talking about the racism they currently deal with in modern day UK.

[00:42:15] And then we never really got it ever again. We never really went back to that well, and I think that that was a good moment then to be like, hey, this is a thing that we're still dealing with and it impacts us, but not really us ever again. And that was like something that I was like, I don't like when these shows decide to do like their one message episode and then it doesn't matter again at all over the course of the run of a show, so.

[00:42:38] Well,

[00:42:42] JOHN: was because actually the Rosa Parks episode is where I thought the show was really hitting its stride. in its first season, or first season of that series, and then it seemed to just sort of be like, alright, that was it. Uh, and also, that type of storytelling, uh, was it.

[00:42:57] This episode, um, there, there always can be limitations involved. Um, one thing it did, which was interesting is, as I sort of said in the initial feel, the way it was horror and all the things, it sneaks things in. And as a result, it makes you think it's gonna be one thing and it's another and it's actually sort of all of them.

[00:43:17] And so it doesn't do it perfectly, uh, for any of them.

[00:43:21] But what, what got me thinking more than just a, you know, sort of episode written by, Somebody with a very specific message was that it layered numerous things on each other and then became what I've come to understand the word to really mean. It was more intersectional, which was impressive because it took the idea that class and wealth are tied into Racism, methods of oppression, and exclusion.

[00:43:52] That's another really important concept was who gets excluded from the system. So, who's not there? Who's not there in the bubble? Who's not there in the city? And it wasn't just anybody who's not white. It was anybody who didn't live up to this ideal that is, you sort of said like white supremacist, but it, but it's, it's It goes back to that, like, Third Reich, Hitler Youth type feel, which is that everybody has to look a certain way, uh, be a certain way, have the right kind of body, the right kind of affect, everything.

[00:44:19] That's why it's so unsettling, because it's, it can't really be real, it can't be real forever. You have to literally craft a fake world to maintain something like that, which is what their wealthy parents do. And that's where class and race and wealth end. that, that sort of societal structure all come crashing in.

[00:44:37] And it was really, it was really interesting to me because at one point, the characters are all talking about rules. Well, you know, I should say all the people in the bubble are talking about rules, especially Lindy's like, well, I, I muted you. I do this, there are rules. There are going to be consequences.

[00:44:49] You're talking about rules and rules and rules. And that's what I clicked for me and said, Oh, that's what it's about. Is that rules are there to protect the powerful. And she was so right. Beside herself when the rules weren't working exactly as they had before. The Doctor was able to get back in? That can't

[00:45:07] JOSH: She called the cops on

[00:45:08] JOHN: him. Called the, literally, literally called the cops and that is, that is, that is again taking exactly what we see in our present day and saying like, yeah, this is what somebody will do and they will come in and they will, they will use the system against somebody but want to pass on their own. She violates all rules of humanity. By sacrificing Ricky September, in such a callous way, but the rules are there to protect her. Oh, I know, this is the rule, your name is actually this, see, review your files, kill him instead of me. Like, that level of ruthlessness. And to use the rules for your own system. Again, it's one of those little extra layers that once you start going back and looking at it, you say, wow, was that intentional?

[00:45:51] I'm pretty sure it was, but that's also brilliant writing to be able to do that and layer it in that way. Um, so yeah, I didn't see, even as I'm watching casually, I have to stop and be like wait, are they, is this what's happening? Is this really what's going on? So, instead of it being sort of a Um, and uh, and I think in the in the past, in the no, past by episode, you're just having it all in the background.

[00:46:10] I, I actually needed to sit, sit down and start focusing on it more, because I realized there was more going on. Um, it wasn't just, uh, scary space snails, uh, devouring you, which I loved that being that it was, it was something as innocuous and horrifying at the same point, because they just open up and like devour you.

[00:46:26] Um, and what I'm really curious about is when we learn that they were, they were sent, that It wasn't, the assumption you sort of have when you talk about the wilderness and the way the world is laid out, you're led down the path to believe, oh, those giant scary snails are probably just something that got into the city, and they happen to be the perfect counter to how these people live.

[00:46:53] You know, it's almost like, you know, nature and evolution. No, they were sent. There's somebody out there that is functionally at war with these people. And in a way, I almost want to know what that is about.

[00:47:08] RILEY: We got that. We got that explanation in the episode.

[00:47:11] Yeah, it's the, it's the, The Doctor said it, it's the dot itself, the dots, the algorithm was turning against the people. That's why it's in alphabetical order, because they're, like, it's almost like the algorithm is like, this is really insufferable, I can't deal with this anymore.

[00:47:27] But it didn't just take over, it didn't just kill. the Finetime people also killed the home world, and the thing is, the home world also seems to be having these bubbles, because that's why Mummy and people like that sent their kids to that world, so there's like a whole degree of it there too, but that seems to be the implication of the algorithm itself.

[00:47:45] This is the second time in Doctor Who now that we've had an episode where an algorithm has chosen to like start killing people, uh, and we're supposed to, well actually, I guess technically, The algorithm did kill the girl in Kerblam, which I have a problem. I, I Kerblam is an episode. That's wild. But wasn't it, they didn't the algorithm kill someone to try to make a point to stop the actual villain or So it was a whole thing.

[00:48:07] Yeah.

[00:48:07] JOHN: don't know why I took it that somebody must have influenced the algorithm, but you're right. It was the algorithm was doing it on its own and probably was in part just disgusted. Um, which there's some neat commentary on like our development of AI and is AI just going to be like, Uh, I can almost imagine after having listened to the now vocalizations of AI that we have access to now, that it just goes like, ugh, really?

[00:48:34] Like, this is what you invented me for, and this is who you really are? I'm not impressed. Um. And there you have The Doctor, who is also similarly beyond, you know, an algorithm sort of might go above you, but The Doctor is also worlds beyond our understanding and experience in the universe, but takes a different approach.

[00:48:55] You know, you might say more human approach, but it's more humanistic approach, but it's a compassionate approach. But I mean, do you disagree with the algorithm? I mean, not, not really. You look at it and say, Oh God, these people are awful and they're unrepentant, which is the interesting part.

[00:49:10] And that's where I see it, um, as comparison to today's. I felt like I had just gone, I had limited experience with this, but I felt like I had just gone out to the Hamptons. I literally felt like, Oh God, I'm in the Hamptons, uh, this is exactly what that world can be like at its worst manifestation, um, and yeah, do you really want to see that society perpetuated when there's no remorse, when there's no compassion for anybody, even the people who literally just saved your existence?

[00:49:39] And then you have to put them in their place. You have to shut them down. And. That, that was the heartbreaking part of it for me, because The Doctor's reaction of tears was so intense because they didn't even care. They didn't care that somebody else cared about them.

[00:49:58] RILEY: Yeah.

[00:50:00] JOHN: it's tragic. I don't even have the words for it.

[00:50:05] JOSH: Not only was it, um, he had the tears, but before he had the tears, he had the laughter, like, yeah, complete, like, are you serious right now? And then it very quickly, turned into just heartbreak and then, like, rage.

[00:50:23] you know, we were talking earlier about how, you know, this was literally Ncuti's second scene as The Doctor.

[00:50:29] and his performance in that scene is just It's unbelievably good, part of why the scene is so effective, why that whole concept is so effective, is because Ncuti sells it so amazingly well. and it was interesting too, because on The Unleashed, uh, Russell was talking about how the producers, had conversations like, should we really make this his first scene? Is that, like, a little shitty, to do that? you

[00:50:58] RILEY: I've seen a lot of criticism of that decision. I've seen a lot of criticism of that decision. And I don't, I don't know. I mean, I don't know, I don't know what his own input into it was either. I think it's a phenomenal performance, but I'm, I'm assuming he agreed to do it. Like that's. I mean,

[00:51:11] JOSH: I mean, what is he going to say, no?

[00:51:13] RILEY: No, I'm not The Doctor anymore. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:51:16] JOSH: he could have said, you know what, I'm not sure I want to start out with that, but he's still, he's a young actor, he's a brand new doctor, and he's working with, Russell T Davies who is, the, biggest TV writer in the UK right now, so like, you know, whatever you say, boss! Sort of what I imagine the, reaction is. But yeah, I think it is really notable and really interesting that that's where they chose to start. I get that there were scheduling things, but like they could have done the day, with all of the, talking heads first to kind of ease him in and then do that scene.

[00:51:54] JOHN: I can see a method to the madness, though.

[00:51:56] JOSH: have all the details.

[00:51:56] JOHN: You want to go, you want to go in hard to get, you know, into the character, uh, of who the Doctor is, because there are these lifetimes that came before and this intensity, and right out of the gate, like, go into the depth of that character, the emotion, the experience, and the gravity with which any incarnation of the Doctor is going to have.

[00:52:23] and I, that might give any actor the ability to say like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I know what I'm, what I'm going to do for this version of it. I remember, you know, Tennant very quickly, you know, in the first few episodes has very deep, intense emotional moments. I don't know, I don't think they were filmed as the first scenes, so that, that's really difficult.

[00:52:41] But, um, the bubble scenes are almost easy, uh, easier fare to film because you're just sort of like, yeah, here I am, like, oh, I'm unmuting, you know, do this, do this, do this. Um, and I, and I think that instead we actually get, even then there's an intensity and urgency to The Doctor. Because in a sense, the Doctor knows the gravity of it and is trying to convey that to people who don't want to hear it.

[00:53:05] Um, otherwise, initially it's just, oh, here, here's a guy on a, on a screen trying to convince me of something. And there was a gravity with a Doctor right there. There's an urgency. There's, there's a, and there's a power to him as well that I think that, Ncuti's just doing a brilliant job at conveying, while being profoundly soulful.

[00:53:29] That's the word I would use, um, and, and powerful at the same time. And it's why I really, in many ways, I feel like I wouldn't want to mess with this Doctor. Uh, you know, I, I, I don't know what the flip side is going to be. I'm really curious to see what that's going to be the next, you know, two episodes we have or so.

[00:53:45] What, if, when he goes intense and is hurt and goes dark for, for a bit. I think we're going to see that. I mean, that's sort of what's happened in past seasons, so I do anticipate some of that.

[00:53:55] RILEY: We got a bit of it already in Boom, I would

[00:53:57] say. I would say there was a little bit of darkness, especially when Ruby got hurt, and he was still stuck on the landmine. There was definitely a lot more darkness than that. When he started turning on the concepts of, like, faith and capitalism in that moment, I thought, like, I mean, obviously it was also Steven Moffat's script, which makes a lot of sense why that happened when it did, but we got a little bit of that, and he would have filmed that after he filmed this, so

[00:54:19] GUY: I do have a question. was anybody else wondering why they went, the, the dots went through the whole rigmarole of, getting, I guess, these slugs in place to eat all these people and why they couldn't just Ricky September everybody with, um, I

[00:54:34] RILEY: Yeah, that's one of those Doctor Who things, like, wait, you just, you just solved your own problem for you early on in this, yeah.

[00:54:41] JOSH: well, you know, I don't know, like there are any number of, like, hand wavy explanations I could imagine, so, mean, I'll just go with it. for some reason, the thing that I kept thinking throughout the episode was like, Star Trek III, The Search for Spock thing, where the microbes on the outside of, Spock's coffin, like, rapidly evolved into like massive, I thought it was gonna be something like, the microbes evolved, which, by the way, John, you were saying earlier that, you were really unnerved and creeped out, um, not necessarily because of the monsters themselves.

[00:55:10] I was creeped the fuck out by those monsters. I think it was the, slime and the, I don't know what you call them, like, cilia, like in the mouth, like I was like creeped out. And the fact that they, it seemed like they, digest you slowly. I mean like a I was really, really creeped out.

[00:55:25] JOHN: And that's why I think the algorithm was being cruel.

[00:55:28] JOSH: Oh, that's interesting, the idea that it was cruel.

[00:55:31] RILEY: I'm always scared of a casual monster, a monster that's casual about murder.

[00:55:35] JOSH: a casual monster. The other thing I thought was so unnerving is that they were slow and not, like, really mobile. And yet, like, they were still I mean, ugh, god, they were just disgusting.

[00:55:45] I really, really hated them. I thought they were awful. um In the interest of starting to wrap up, are there any other, points or anything that you, came into this conversation wanting to bring up that we haven't gotten to yet?

[00:55:59] GUY: really think that of all the, the episodes that have come before it, this is one that I really would, if I watch again, And then again, I will find something different. it was the one episode in years that has left me profoundly like disturbed in it's just betrayal of, callousness of people towards other people.

[00:56:27] An upset, actually, that I, I, living in New York City, I, I see this. I experience this myself. I experienced this, yesterday. You know, I don't want to get too deep into what happened yesterday.

[00:56:42] with, uh, a very unruly individual who, who didn't care very much for the fact that, uh, Not only did I kick this person out of the restaurant, well, after kicking them out, they had to yell at me and use, you know, F slurs toward me, uh, numerous times, like, like 15 different times, and then shout Trump, Trump, Trump, like that was, you know, he just went to this base level, and, and it shows that this is, is, this is the human condition, and it's not nice, it's not good, it's, it's, but it's there, and we can't ignore it.

[00:57:23] And I think that we need stories like this to shine a light on that. Yes, this is actually, this is life, and it is life now, and it was life decades ago, and it will be life in decades from now. And we, it's just how do we deal with it. And um, anyway, that was mine.

[00:57:44] JOHN: I've been looking for the words as well, and it's just, there's this. This, uh, sense that I came away that this is why The Doctor is ashamed of us. I think the writers going this season on, uh, cruelty, callousness, and capitalism.

[00:58:04] I think sort of the three triple C's there, uh, is really intense and they're not pulling back. They're not saying, oh, but it actually would be fine if we just made a couple tweaks. They're saying, no, there's something really going wrong right

[00:58:16] now. And I feel there's a lot of storylines in this like where they go into the world like something's wrong in this world. There's something wrong in this world and I can't help but feel like, like, look around.

[00:58:26] There's so much that doesn't make sense to me in the world today. The politics of our world today, the casual cruelties. And that's what all these episodes seem to share in common is that they're putting the situation, the politics. Different, different worlds, different timelines, but they're always like, something's really off here.

[00:58:40] Something is really not right. What, and what do we do about that? Curious what the end of the season is going to be like, but I think that's the question that we're all, you know, sort of being inspired to ask is, what is wrong? And why, why do we all feel this way? And then what do we do about it? I don't know yet.

[00:58:59] RILEY: Yeah, I, to kind of, I was thinking about it when, when Guy, you said a thing about an incident you had yesterday at work. I, I had a similar incident today at WeHo Pride, and I was, while there's a parade for Pride happening, there were two gentlemen next to me who were there, who were part of the queer community, but they had brought You know, I don't want to get too deep into world events right now, but they had brought Israeli flags and they were shouting really abusive things at anybody who had any sort of pro Palestinian signs or garments or anything, and it was always them escalating it.

[00:59:41] It was always them making it more abusive. It was always them shouting epithets and stuff like that and always adding this element of hate and bile to the conversation. And then They were also the same people to mention earlier about calling the cops on The Doctor. They were the people that, when the L.

[00:59:57] A. Sheriff's Department came by on Pride, I have a lot of issues with cops at Pride. I have a lot of issues with cops being featured in the parade at Pride. And at this exact same Pride last year, there was a big issue where some sheriff's people came and like, Beat up a person at a booth. Like it was like there was a whole thing going on with it.

[01:00:12] So, that's a whole other thing to get into. But when the sheriffs came by this, one of these guys is yelling out, thank you for protecting us from the criminals and stuff like that. You're protecting us. You're our, and it was just such a like performative level of anger and, and rage. And, you know, I, I think the issue of what's happening right now with the Palestine is very nuanced, and so I'm not trying to like, dig down into that hole of it, but it was, it wasn't even that, it was the level of anger and hate these two guys brought to it, but then also kept presenting it as they were the ones being victimized, and they were the ones being silenced.

[01:00:51] And whenever anybody would tell them to stop, because we didn't want their anger shouted, we're trying to have pride. And they would still make it about like, oh, well, now I'm being, I'm being persecuted and there's anti Semitism and stuff like that. And I'm a person of Jewish descent, so I was kind of like sitting here going, no one's being anti Semitic to you.

[01:01:09] They're mad at you because you're being an asshole. Like, that's what's happening. And It really struck a chord with me with this episode because, like, there's characters in this episode who are probably queer characters. Like, I would say there's a pretty good chance that Gothic Paul probably is supposed

[01:01:26] to be, like, a gay boy. And there is definitely an element of white supremacy and classism and things like that within the queer community. And so, I think, like, a lot of times as a queer person myself, and Russell as a queer writer, I think there are some times where people are like, Well, of course this person can't delve into, like, How do I want to phrase this?

[01:01:46] Like, when we're talking about bigotry and someone's like, well, they also experience bigotry. It's like, yes, but there's, we mentioned intersectionality earlier. There is a very different way that people of color experience bigotry in the world versus how queer people experience it. And we both experience it, but, and there are people of who are both experiences and people who will experience it within each other.

[01:02:04] And people will, people who are people of color in the queer community will experience racism in a way within that community. And people who are people of color will experience homophobia in their community that people experience. people who are white queer people might not experience it. There's all these layers of how this stuff impacts people.

[01:02:21] And so watching this episode and being like, yes, even in this Hitler Youth type white supremacist quote unquote utopia that Finetime is, there is still like, These other cultural things that are happening with it. And those people are also complicit in and building towards and benefiting from that supremacy.

[01:02:43] And so that kind of layering, as we mentioned, was really interesting to me. But the other thing I want to comment on going back to Ncuti's performance at the end is that it's not just that he's playing.

[01:02:56] A black Doctor, right? Like, it's not just a black actor dealing with his own experience with racism and stuff like that. This is a doctor who has historically always been white. This is a, this is a character that has not dealt with this level of overt, in your face racism directed at them prior to this.

[01:03:20] This is, this is not just like, like, and it's similar to the degree of The Witchfinders where it's almost like shocking to Jodie, like, like, wait, really? Like, this is what's happening? And even more so here. And so I think that's, that's a really fascinating thing to ask an actor to do. To, to say, I remember I talked to Wilson Cruz one time about his work on Star Trek Discovery and he was saying that.

[01:03:46] Discovery was really interesting for him and inspiring for him because he got to play a gay Puerto Rican character who had never once in his entire life experienced the prejudice of either of those two things. And he felt it was very freeing for him and it gave him a lot of thoughts about how to approach the world himself in the modern day.

[01:04:05] And I think this was really interesting to give this as a challenge to an actor like Ncuti. And I imagine it was really challenging to be like, You have never experienced systemic racism before as a character, first hand. You've been able to be the white guy who could punch a lord in protection of your black companion, but you've never played the character who, for reasons of systemic prejudice, could not do it for yourself.

[01:04:34] that's a whole different storyline if that's what happens. And so I think that giving him this role and giving him this script of, you have to channel, and I think that's where the laughter comes from. I'd be curious to see what it's like in the script. But I feel like for this Doctor, that's why it's, because it's like, it is so cosmically absurd to him that he doesn't even know how to react.

[01:05:00] And so he's He's despairing from it, but his body's reaction to it is to laugh, because that's all he's capable of doing in that moment, and then he finally breaks to the crying of it, because he's like, I can't believe this is happening to me. And he's never, it's, it's that, it's that really interesting thing that's happening with this character, and so I, it's a shame that this show never really gets noticed for, for performances, for Emmy consideration and stuff like that.

[01:05:29] Uh, maybe possibly a BAFTA, we'll see, but. It's a really, really fascinating and nuanced and layered performance, and it's all happening in like three minutes, so, yeah, my, that's amazing.

[01:05:40] JOHN: It is, and

[01:05:42] just thinking about the story you just told is that, you know, the Doctor is powerful. And when the Doctor walks away, The Doctor isn't really under threat. The individual you talked about at Pride today, the cops. could have still arrested that person, could have still beaten that person. They didn't have the power the Doctor has.

[01:06:04] So the Doctor's obviously playing multiple angles of this, as a character and for the actor because, yeah, the Doctor is very powerful, but there, but what does a regular person do? In that type of situation, when you're asked to like turn the other cheek or try to de escalate, well, yeah, but you can even do that and still be beaten to a pulp, um, something the doctor isn't quite, quite afraid of at the same level.

[01:06:28] So it's the, it's the emotional impact of that not happening, but it reminds you that in the real world, That is horrific, it's intense, and they'll stay with you for a while. , And yeah, just the idea of like, yeah, just stop at both of you is something that creates that false equivalency.

[01:06:50] Yeah, I mean, we could go on forever and ever because I feel like this season especially touches on things in ways, going back to the specials.

[01:06:57] With Tennant and Donna, like that really, they were opening up doors that Doctor Who's been a little bit afraid to go through in the past. And now, even though they're not doing it perfectly in every episode, they're opening those doors. And I really appreciate that, because it's making me think in ways that I haven't thought, um, as a viewer, as a fan.

[01:07:16] And that's something that Personally, I'm in the, I'm in the, I'm in, I'm open to, I don't, I don't need it to be the show that it was 50 years ago in my comfort zone. I want to feel a little bit uncomfortable and that's what I began this episode with. I mean, our podcast was that, this episode had me feel uncomfortable, not just from the terror or the horror or the, or some of the commentary, it made me feel uncomfortable because I could identify elements of my life in their little bubble world that I don't like about other people.

[01:07:42] Life, my life, the way I behave, things like that. It's there. So I'd be really curious, maybe we could revisit it in comments when this is posted. I want to see what the broader reaction to this episode is. And if it does have that typical pushback of people who feel seen and judged, um, and don't like it, because that's a big thing we see in fandom right now, is that, you know, might be being called out and, you know, People do not like that or accept that now in the ways, you know, now that they can really platform themselves and say, well, now I'm going to stop watching the show.

[01:08:15] Now I hate this show because it's woke or it's just because they've been called out.

[01:08:20] RILEY: And they say it again the next week. Every week, they stop watching it every week, and then they watch it again the next week, and then they stop watching it until the

[01:08:26] JOHN: That too. Yep.

[01:08:27] JOSH: um,

[01:08:28] In the interest of wrapping up, first off, I want to, just say I'm sorry that, both, Guy and Riley, that you both had those experiences. Um, I don't have a problem with episodes of shows or shows and movies, being so blunt about, racism and, prejudice because it's necessary things in our culture have changed

[01:08:50] in the last few years to make it supercharged and more visible people feel like they have license to just let it all out.

[01:08:59] GUY: Permission has been granted.

[01:09:01] JOSH: Yes, exactly. And so to see that reflected in our pop culture, I think is not just understandable. I think it's necessary for it to be called out. I mean, to the extent that, pop culture can change culture, I think that that's an open question.

[01:09:17] but I do think that it's reflective of, the moment that we're all living in. but, um, I want to thank my guests, John, Guy, and Riley. Uh, next week it's Doctor Who meets Bridgerton with special guest star Johnathan Goff. In, I'm pretty sure the only other episode this season not to be written by Russell T Davies.

[01:09:35] That'll be interesting to see if it has a, a different, flavor. But, until then, we are Tardis Rubbish on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. And please always remember to run fast, love hard, and be kind.