#6 – Capitalist Landmines: BOOM

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to TARDIS Rubbish, I'm Josh, and this week we're talking about BOOM! Steven Moffat's return to the Doctor Who universe, and joining me to discuss is returning guest John

[00:00:13] JOHN: So fantastic to be

[00:00:14] here.

[00:00:14] JOSH: And he is formerly the engineer of the Game of Rassilon podcast, a Doctor Who RPG podcast that just wrapped its five season run, Michael A. Nixon.

[00:00:23] MICHAEL: Hello, I'm back. title's gonna be way easier to remember.

[00:00:29] JOSH: John, let's start with you. overall thoughts Moffat's return? Boom.

[00:00:34] JOHN: Uh, this, this episode had me, Just like excited, nervous. Um, and it just worked really, really well. Uh, and, and it is, I feel like this, this entire season is a lot of the, uh, reminder of what worked in the past, but watching 10 or 15 years later, what the, uh, what the writers and the cast and the crew, and what they're capable of now.

[00:00:56] Um, but yeah, I, I was on the edge of my seat. I was, I really thought this was well done for an episode that was, when you think about it, was on one or two sets, really. Um, They're just on these, you know, these two scenes and you're just there for almost an hour while The Doctor has to stand on a capitalist landmine.

[00:01:16] Um, it is like, wow, okay, how are they going to make this work? And it was the entire episode. Absolutely brilliant. Steven Moffat back in full form, uh, really giving us a great episode. Um, I, I can't think of, I, right now I can't think of anything negative to say. I'm sure I'll come up with something eventually, but right now I'm just loving the episode, especially as just a regular Doctor Who episode.

[00:01:37] Yeah, there's something, um, I mean, obviously, everyone was focused on the fact that this is Steven Moffat's return to Who after, what, like, seven years? but beyond that, it's also the first Steven Moffat, Doctor Who script where he wasn't the showrunner. I don't know, 15 years, maybe?

[00:01:54] JOSH: 16 years? , because, there was always something about the, like, Steven Moffat slot in the Russell T. Davies season. you know, where you would just kind of get a flavor of Moffat's particular brand of Doctor Who. There is something to be said for, just having a little, a little morsel of Steven Moffat as a treat. But,

[00:02:12] Michael, I'll throw it to you. What were your overall thoughts and impressions of Boom? Um,

[00:02:16] MICHAEL: I guess my initial impression is finally some fucking food. No, um, I feel like the last two episodes have been like Disneyland. When you walk into Disneyland and like you're starting the day, you're like, Oh, I'll start with a churro. Delicious. Uh, Space Babies. Um, and then you're like, you know what? I'm gonna head over to the Tiki Room. I love those little birds.

[00:02:38] And you get a Dole Whip. Devil's Cord. And then you're halfway through the day and you're like, I need an actual meal. and you get like a burger, like a real, like a meal, like with several things in it and like a drink, like, like a, like food. Like, I, like I just, to bring it back to that, I just, the previous, this feels like, I don't know, I, I, I too often speak in visual metaphors for the podcast medium, but I feel like this episode was like the Predator handshake meme of, uh, Steven Moffat and Ncuti Gatwa and the middle is Scottish excellence.

[00:03:16] Like this is, this is why we watch Doctor Who. Like this is the good shit. Um, it's just, yeah, I had a great time. What's not to love? Like it was, it had everything. It had everything. So yeah, I'm sure I'll have nits to pick eventually, but like, this was great. I had a wonderful time. I watched it again before this episode today, so like, first of all, like, thank you for giving me a great reason to rewatch that episode so soon.

[00:03:44] Cause it's, god, it's killer. It's all killer, no filler. I love it.

[00:03:48] JOSH: No, yeah, definitely. It's so, it's so great. Like, Steven Moffat's scripts are like, Swiss watches of plot. mechanics and balancing of, humor and, drama. And he sets things up in the exact proper way for you to forget about it. like my, jaw dropping moment was when Ruby is shot.

[00:04:11] And I was also, so in awe of the way that he had set that up so perfectly, and you totally forgot that that other soldier dude was on his way. It's just one of those moments when, once it happens, you're like, of course that happened. Of course it looked like she was about to shoot her.

[00:04:28] Of course. But leading up to it, until it happened, you did not have that at all on the radar. It's just moments like that where I'm like, Steven Moffat, you're, you're pretty good at this. Um, the overall. that I had watching it was like, it just really made me realize how much Steven Moffat's sensibility is in his take on The Doctor, for me, is such an integral part of modern Doctor Who. you know, I don't think it's crazy to say that Steven Moffat is to New Who as, like, Robert Holmes is to Classic Who.

[00:05:01] It's like, their particular sensibilities and, preoccupations and sense of humor and style are just something woven into the fabric of the show. And, without having had that for, you know, six or seven years now. it was just a refreshing reminder of, how good this show can be and what it can And this accusation has been leveled at Steven Moffat's scripts in the past, this idea that he, um, he kind of cribs from himself and He has certain preoccupations that he returns to again and again, and, you know, Steven Moffat is on full display in this episode, it's full of, it's full of Moffatisms, it's, it's full of, um, you know, thematic interests, that he goes through again and again, but, like, I like all those things, so it's not a problem for me, like, I like his Moffatisms. I am also interested in the same, thematic topics that, he's interested in. I was, wondering, if you guys, picked up on any, you know, either thematic interests that, were familiar or any particular lines moments that felt particularly Steven Moffatian.

[00:06:11] JOHN: Oh yeah, I mean that, it, it was the moment, uh, these soldiers were mentioned as being part of a church, and specifically Anglicans, um, which is funny to me on a number of levels, because the idea that millennia in the future, uh, Uh, uh, the religion that's, uh, one of the major religions that survives is Anglicanism.

[00:06:31] It's really interesting. It's very UK centric. Um, but, uh, I, I have a curious fascination with that as to how that really wouldn't likely be the case, but, uh, go with that. But this is directly, it's not so much cribbing off himself, but yeah, I mean, it relates to the Church of the Papal Mainframe. You know, when he took over the show, the silence, that entire arc, um, was heavy on the church symbolism, the church structure.

[00:06:57] He clearly does have an interest in that, but as opposed to, like, just cribbing for himself or revisiting something that's been done, uh, I feel like a lot of, uh, Authors, a lot of writers have a few great stories in them and a few great concepts. Revisiting them years later in a way where they can say, hey, I'm coming at it from a different angle this time.

[00:07:16] This is a different purpose. Well, that's sort of, to me, oftentimes what a great writer is. Uh, it's not that they have to constantly reinvent themselves and come in with something utterly, completely different. Um, that's what a different writer is for, arguably. Uh, in this case, it was the integration of the concept of the You know, religion being this ever present concept, faith being the ever present concept that our present right now where maybe Ruby thinks, Hey, well that's not really the case right now in, in the uk.

[00:07:47] Well, it's called a blip. The doctor says that's a blip in history, that the millennia before the millennia after are heavily, if not directly religious, that there's almost a religious structure behind it. That the military and the, and religion go similarly. I mean that you can. Go to Dune for concepts like that.

[00:08:06] Uh, it's, it's a very strong idea historically, and it would make sense that the future would have it. Why, why wouldn't it? What he goes on with this is how tightly woven it is with faith, lack of faith, Uh, uh, uh, Fake Faith, and which goes right into Capitalism, and that the entire war is about Capitalism.

[00:08:27] And Capitalism was another theme that you see in his writing, but it wasn't on display as strongly as it was in this episode. This episode was like, hey, I'm taking the gloves off. I wanna, I wanna show directly how absurd we can be, and since we live in the age of the very, very beginning of AI, You know, is where we are now in, in our world, uh, that is directly in this episode now.

[00:08:52] And it's basically like AI and late stage capitalism, except what he's saying is late stage capitalism is going to go on for millennia and millennia and millennia. And it's going to do things like fund both sides of a war. That's actually only having one side. Just keeping it going. I thought that was a brilliant, uh, way of doing it.

[00:09:09] And if you're going to have one or two episodes in a season, uh, to do, why wouldn't you revisit? The things that really interest, uh, you as an a as a writer. Uh, so I I really appreciated that, because it wasn't apologetic. Um, it was just really just him doing his best, and being like, This is what I do. This is what I want to talk about.

[00:09:28] And it was there in such a brilliant episode.

[00:09:31] JOSH: yeah, I mean, that's another thing that, with Steven Moffat, I mean, not only are his scripts structured like Swiss watches, but they also, like, say really profound, insightful things. I mean, thematically they're, very rich. But, uh, Michael, what stood out to you as Moffat, uh, being Steven Moffat as it were in this.

[00:09:53] MICHAEL: Oh, uh, I mean, there's all, I mean, down to the first and last Moffat stories of the the Wales era of Doctor Who, both containing Villengard references. My man's just like, we're doing Villengard this week again, get ready for it. Like, he's serving up that card. Um, again, like John mentioned with the Anglican Marines, like, there were real through lines.

[00:10:20] I've already seen, uh, you know, the side by side memes across of like, Lines from the 11th Doctor era and lines from last night's episode. So it's, he's doing it on purpose. But I would say in an episode that is so, about the struggle of AI and humanity to have Steven Moffat, the king of the authorial voice right now, like just drop in all of his tics at once and be like, Do you want an AI in charge or do you want a human?

[00:10:52] Let's go. Like, let's decide. Like, come on. Like, do you want an artistic voice or do you want an ambulance that fires laser darts at you? Like, come on. Like, enough. Like, let's just, let's go. And I love it. I mean, my, my, my feeling about Moffat is I, it's okay. So let's talk about like a totally different Steven.

[00:11:13] Okay, real quick. So there's this hypothetical writer, Steven. He's like difficult writing women, and he's got a horror like vibe, and he's got a kind of sitcom blockbuster tone that a lot of people love that he returns to, but this is not a podcast about Steven King, so, like, what are we doing here? I'm sorry, I just like, do you like authors or not?

[00:11:39] Enough! Like, and this is like an episode that's like, do you like people or not? Like, that's enough! Like, who's in charge here? Um, so, yeah, I just, like, I, I really, I'm, I'm all fired up, would you believe it, about Doctor Who, and I feel great about it, it's wonderful. Um, I also just want to slide in, like, Steven Moffat,

[00:12:02] not 30 seconds in to being back in Doctor Who, and we are in a quarry. Like he is just, he is doing it. He is operating at a level like, like Russell Davies is doing like fifth wall storytelling and like Steven Moffat looks down from the 16th wall and is like, that's adorable, you know, it just, I'm, I love it.

[00:12:24] I, I'm having a

[00:12:25] great time.

[00:12:25] JOSH: not only 30 seconds are we into a quarry, we're also in the middle of a sitcom romance subplot, from the creator Coupling, and, and like, I just, yeah, I mean, I love it.

[00:12:36] MICHAEL: He does it because he's good at it, Like, the reason he falls back on the sitcom thing is because like, like many great writers, I think he watched His Girl Friday 500 times and it became part of his DNA and that's, that's good news for all of us. Like, God bless. Like,

[00:12:54] JOSH: There's also an efficiency there. He's able to sketch out this whole relationship will they, won't they situation, so quickly. We know exactly what this whole situation is from the very efficient way he, he sketched it out using sitcom, Not but he made a sitcom shaped subplot that felt very familiar, that we could instantly grasp and recognize, and then, from those few exchanges in the beginning, we get that, beat at the end, when you really all of a sudden feel the weight of his loss, and it's just like, so unexpectedly moving. Like, that's something else Moffat does so well, the way he delivers exposition and creates setups through jokes, and then when he pays it off, somewhere along the way it slid into tragedy and you didn't even notice, And so you get those flavors, and you don't realize how he's manipulating you in the beginning, because you're just, laughing along with it.

[00:13:57] The, Moffatism from this that I love the most of his is, about the power of stories and memory.

[00:14:06] So at the end when, um, What's the father's name? John Francis Vater?

[00:14:11] JOHN: Vater. Yeah. Va Vater, but I kept on thinking Vader.

[00:14:14] JOSH: The

[00:14:15] MICHAEL: John Father. Father John Father.

[00:14:16] JOSH: John Father,

[00:14:17] The idea that even when reduced to the, disembodied, the disembodied metadata that sort of, made him up.

[00:14:26] That the love for his daughter was so strong, such a part of who he was, that it's retained enough to save the day at the end. that idea you know, Moffat has returned to again and again, like how we're all stories in the end. Um, there's an underrated, I think, episode from Capaldi's last season, um, Extremis.

[00:14:44] When you don't realize until the end that the whole episode has been inside a simulation. And the simulated version of The Doctor is able to save the day because the idea of him and what he would do is so powerful.

[00:14:56] Powerful. is so powerful. even though the genuine article isn't there, he still does what The Doctor always does, and I just, there's something about that, that, ideas, stories, memories are so powerful that they can affect material change on the real world, is my favorite, of his preoccupations, and I was pleased to see it, in this.

[00:15:16] JOHN: It really came back in an interesting way because that dovetailed with the back and forth notion of faith because it was, you know, what, what ideas, what are these potent notions that drive you that can manifest in the real world in so many ways. So at the beginning, The Doctor is, and Ruby, are all about ridiculing faith. Um, and especially from the perspective that's completely accurate because what are these people fighting for? They have no idea. They've been sort of assigned to fight this enemy. They have faith in it. We don't even get a hint of what they actually have faith in. Uh, which from that perspective is, well, they have faith in something, even if it's relatively strong faith.

[00:15:57] They don't even begin to understand, so what does it even mean? Uh, and it turns out, well, it's basically just a twisted form of, of, uh, capitalism and profiteering, and really nothing else. But then, at the end, The Doctor is, Sort of in, in his, you know, like, sort of like winking way. Yeah. Like faith is what got you through this, you know, to, to the daughter and, and to everybody else.

[00:16:22] I'm thinking, well that's, that's the other side of it, is that when it's an idea, when it's a potent idea and when it's a powerful idea, it can manifest, it can really affect the world, and that can also go in a really destructive, horrific direction. Or it can save lives. It can make the world better. The question is, what do you have faith in?

[00:16:40] Where is that intention? And he focused on this father's love for his daughter and a notion of sacrifice. You know, it wasn't like, I'm going to destroy everybody for my daughter. It was, I'm going to sacrifice myself because even the AI might not survive. Uh, that process of trying to take over the, the ambulance network and apparently the entire network of, of, of that corporation and they, they do like the whole like antivirus scenes, uh, you know, as the AIs are battling it out and there was, there was sacrifice in that.

[00:17:13] There was the idea of, well, I'm going to do whatever I can, even if it's futile, just in a slim hope. And that's what The Doctor's all about. Like, oh, there's a slim little bit of hope. You've got to have some hope. But even a small amount is enough to work with, and then we can amplify that and do something amazing.

[00:17:29] And he did. And The Doctor's also the manifestation of that physically, because as it turns out, that landmine, uh, uses the energy of the organic being that stepped on it, and apparently The Doctor would have taken a chunk out of the entire planet. You call it a Swiss watch? I love that because all these little pieces seem to work with each other in the script.

[00:17:52] Uh, so even as we're discussing it now, it's like, wait, that, that is part of this greater theme, but that also in a very subtle way links into that. So it just, it just worked really, really well on so many levels for that. You don't, you don't end up having a clear answer. Is faith good or bad? No, but it's powerful and it can be good or it can be stupid.

[00:18:12] And you got to figure out the difference between the two. And The Doctor and his companions are sort of along, you know, to help point out when it's stupid. And I like that. Without being smarmy, without being so, you know, detached, they're, they're really accessible. And you say, yeah, what, what the hell are these people doing?

[00:18:31] Why are they, why are they doing this? The Doctor wants, always wants to know the answer to the question. Why? Uh, and those soldiers couldn't give him an answer. And then they walked away at the end with a much deeper meaning and a deeper purpose. And one episode? Wow. That's, that's, that's really good. To be able to do all of that in one episode.

[00:18:50] JOSH: that was my impression as well. what, Moffat and The Doctor were saying about faith. but I also see it in another way, potentially. It's not about, It's almost like he's making a distinction between there are two kinds of faith.

[00:19:03] there's a, top down faith that you are, told to blindly follow without necessarily having a, a personal connection to or experience with. And then there's another kind of faith that comes from direct experience, you know, meaningful experience or knowledge. So I think you can draw a distinction, between, being blindly devoted to beliefs that you are told to have, from up above in the larger institution that you're a part of, versus, you know, having faith that your father loves you or that your father will figure out a way to save you or save the day. Like, I think, You know, the Anglican Marines, they don't know what they're fighting for. They don't know what they're fighting. And I think, Moffat and The Doctor saying that's, that's fucking stupid.

[00:19:52] But what's not stupid is a daughter's faith in the. love that her father has for her.

[00:20:00] JOHN: that's a notion that seems to be at the core of it and I think that's a brilliant way of putting it, is that you're talking about a top down imposed sort of externalized institutional faith versus a developed faith of a connection between Uh, a person and another person, and it can be a father and a daughter.

[00:20:16] It can be, uh, uh, two friends. It can be the doctor, uh, and their companion. And that's, that's something that has always been really strong in Doctor Who is that you have faith in the doctor, not because he has superpowers. This isn't like, oh, Superman's gonna come save the day because he has superpowers, uh, and that was also explored in Superman things, but that, but that's a very generic superhero concept, is, oh, well, they'll save me because they can fly, because they're super strong.

[00:20:43] Yeah, The Doctor has all these abilities, but you have faith in the, that the person will fight for you, and it's forged through a relationship, and that relationship was on really intense display in this episode, because I made a note at the end, um, And it was the hug at the end between Ruby and The Doctor.

[00:21:03] It, it had me almost like in, in tears. I don't know what it was. There was something about the physicality of that hug, the way, the way they just, the way they acted it, the way it was directed, whatever it was. And I don't have the words for it. It was true companionship. It was the sense of people who, you know, I can imagine Two long lost friends who haven't seen each other in a long time just embracing in this tight hug.

[00:21:32] It felt so real. It, it, that, and that's where it felt so real and blew my mind. That, that was what it was. It was like, wow, you, you, you got a real emotion. And then I said, well, of course it's companionship. So it's one of the, that's why they're a companion. And it was like, Yeah, 60 years of Doctor Who, and I'm like, wait a second, companion, of course, that's what it's really about.

[00:21:52] It's true companionship, true relationship, and for those two actors to have really portrayed that, thank you. I love it. That really, it gave me such a good feeling, uh, and, uh, already set up, I think, the two of them for, you know, the rest of the season in terms of how deep that connection already is, but also how deep those characters are, those people are, and their level of ability to feel and be.

[00:22:16] JOSH: no, very well said. one of the Moffatisms is, um, the repeated phrase that, takes on an ominous, you know, meaning, like, are you my daddy? And in this one, it was thoughts and prayers. The way that he weaponized, Thoughts and prayers.

[00:22:31] =I was like, wow, and I'm wondering, especially, given the ambulances and the way that Valengard or Valengard, I prefer Valengard because it just sounds, better to me.

[00:22:41] But the algorithm, the way that it, calculated whether or not to give you life saving treatment or not. I feel like this was very much a post COVID Steven Moffat because It very much feels like that, you know, fury at, how we calculated, whose life was worth saving, you know, versus, continuing life as normal and, um, how capitalism is so intertwined with that, the need to reopen to get the economy going and everything, and I, very much felt like, this is some fury on display that has been informed by recent events.

[00:23:15] MICHAEL: Yeah, I think it's, it's tempting to look at that with a like strictly American lens too, but it's worth noting that like the, the British NHS or the UK's NHS is like in the process of being very aggressively privatized right now, or, you know, put back or sort of mandatory corporate elements are being put into it.

[00:23:40] So like, for profit ambulances aren't just our problem. It's theirs too. And I just love how the ambulance is this like weird dark parody of the TARDIS visually. Like the first thing The Doctor sees on the Battlefield is like, it looks like the windows and the siren and then it rolls up and you're like, oh, oh no, this is some shit out of Alien.

[00:24:05] Like it, it's, it's got like the checker mark crap on the side and it's doing like scary face to you. Like it's, it's awesome. It's like a bad guy who built an evil TARDIS to mess with The Doctor, kind of. Which is like, this is the weirdest, dumbest idea I've ever had. So just bear with me for a second. So the new TARDIS doesn't have the ambulance sticker on it anymore.

[00:24:31] So what if ambulance is like, the sticker? That's so weird. I, but like in a show where we're doing fourth wall breaks and like we're, it's like doing weird Magic Resonance stuff. Like, is there a chance that like S triad is the TARDIS and like that's Susan Twist? Like instead of it being Susan, like there's just so much weird.

[00:24:56] There, And I don't, yeah, it's just a very, like, I'm wondering if Susan is like, Russell Davis, just like one more red herring with Susan. Let's go. Like, what if that's what's happening? But yeah, just the Susan, like the, the, the Susan twist in the episodes. This is finally the time where. The Doctor and her are face to face as well, in like a full body hologram version too, so the fact that, like, to counterpoint what I just said, even back into theory, like, what if it is Susan and this is her TARDIS?

[00:25:36] Like, there are some weird, some weird vibes happening here with all of that, beyond just like, I don't know, I just really dug it. So cohesive. And then back to like the faith thing. What really struck me in there is, and I feel like I've just been jamming a like Moffat, Moffat, Oh my God, our King. But like Russell Davies has also been setting up that like the doctor is this chosen one.

[00:26:06] We're keeping that right. And we're keeping the last of the time Lords thing. And we're keeping this like unique out of the universe element. Um, and. What I loved in this episode was how it was only a weakness that the Doctor was a special Chosen One Time Lord, like, the fact that the Doctor is this complex, unique being is a, like, monstrous and dangerous thing, which is like a sort of weirdly anthropomorphic actualization of, like, the danger and Difficulty of faith, right?

[00:26:44] Like there's like the, the intertwining of all that stuff is really compelling. And that down to like the episode literally has a father, a daughter, and a Holy ghost, like just it's going like, it's, there's so much cool stuff. And then also just casually, like the daughter is dressed like Rey. Like, just on top of everything else, like, they're just like, Hey, no, those movies did have a visual impact.

[00:27:11] Look.

[00:27:12] JOSH: that's funny.

[00:27:14] MICHAEL: Yeah, they did. Look.

[00:27:15] Look at it. Yes, they did. Look. And it's like, I love it. She's even got the hair. Like, it's awesome.

[00:27:20] it's operating in like, again, back to like the many layers, many levels. Oh, God, Doctor Who's just an onion now. Um, but, yeah, I just, it's all, it's great for everybody.

[00:27:31] From everybody's department, not

[00:27:32] just writing, you know.

[00:27:33] JOSH: And, speaking of, uh, let's talk about, um, Ncuti Gatwa's performance as The Doctor for a second. I mean, Ncuti was fantastic, and it was you know, Steven Moffat has said before, like, he's always really into selling the idea that is the same Doctor,

[00:27:51] so, whenever you get a new incarnation saying Steven Moffat lines. it's another example of, this is the same man, right? He would say that because he has said that.

[00:28:03] MICHAEL: A wild example of this that I didn't know until I made the fatal mistake as a Doctor Who fan and I looked at the TARDIS datacore wiki. I apologize. I'll spend my penance on that. Anyway. A really cool throughline in this one is the Sky Boat song. The first time that's played in Doctor Who is the second Doctor plays it on his recorder in the Web of Fear,

[00:28:27] which is like, I saw that and just like, I turned into the galaxy brain meme.

[00:28:33] I was like, and then it was just like, oh, I can see, you know, there's, there's the, the, I've got the dream of a Doctor Who fan, right? The stories about like Davies and Moffat and Paul Cornell and a bunch of other like the guys who went on to Mark Gatiss and all them like in a pub in the 80s and 90s just hanging around talking Doctor Who and I feel like I could hear them all singing the Sky Boat song just like this was just like the real deep we love this stuff thing um coming through so selling even more like this is the same person, like the same doctor has been doing this the whole time is I just, yeah, it was really tremendous.

[00:29:14] And then I also on the Ncuti Gatwa front, outfit watch at the risk of activating a winter soldier out there, purple corduroy Eisenhower jacket is an incredible look. It's a magnificent, first of all, great combination of words. I regret if I've activated a sleeper agent, but also it's an amazing outfit.

[00:29:34] I love the like tall pants thing he's doing and he's really like everything that's accompanying it is tremendous, but just like the middle man meets purple rain is not an outfit I would ever have thought existed in the world and I'm, I love to see it. So God bless him. He's doing great

[00:29:52] stuff.

[00:29:52] JOSH: No, that's really true. Like, there is something to be said. They are kind of turning The Doctor into a fashion icon.

[00:30:00] MICHAEL: Which I would say The Doctor, like Doctor Who at its strongest moments has influenced

[00:30:05] fashion, like the the, Tennant suit became a look and the bow tie in the 11th Doctor era, like the, yeah, and, and I, I would say the 13th Doctor's outfit kind of followed fashion and the like comfy chic thing, but like even that is in, even that is in like, the Doctors have always been relatively fashionable and this, but yeah, Ncuti does feel like, you know, He's

[00:30:30] bringing

[00:30:30] JOSH: next level thing. It's like, it's like every episode is a new, like, whoa, like that is something new and amazing.

[00:30:39] MICHAEL: had a Listening to your Devil's Court episode, uh, uh, the two part, I had the wildest thought about this. Um, so in that episode, June Hudson appears. And June Hudson is the lady who plays the piano in the Devil's Court. I, I, um, And she's also notable as like the woman who designed the question mark shirt, like she's the reason in the 80s the Doctor had like a uniform.

[00:31:01] So metatextually, June Hudson being killed is the reason the Doctor is no longer in a uniform? It's something that just like, Like, went through me like the Nexus wave in Generations, like it just like, it's like wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on, wait, wait, what do you mean? Hold on, hold on. And also in that ep, Ncuti's wearing basically the Tennant suit, double breasted.

[00:31:22] Like it's, there's, again, we're just doing stuff on like the 5th and 10th wall of storytelling. Just like, it's so weird. I, I'm, I'm loving it. Like,

[00:31:34] JOHN: Imagine the fun for the people involved in the show. That's the huge part of it, probably, is that they're taking something that has a 60 year history, uh, and really, you know, all these details, and instead of, you know, looking at it from the perspective of, well, we live in an age of reboots, we're going to redo everything, it's taking it And he's like creating this onion that you peel back, all these things that we can nerd out like crazy on this podcast.

[00:32:06] While a viewer who's completely new to the show can just watch an amazing

[00:32:10] episode. and, and that's the, I think that's the interesting of having people work on a show who are either coming back to it, or who are themselves really, really big fans of this show. It's not a, uh, it's not just being professionals.

[00:32:26] It's not like, okay, I was hired to write this show, I was hired to play this character, I do it because it's my job, I love doing my job, but still, it's my job. There, there, there's definitely another level to this, and the people involved in it, and we see that in a lot of, uh, Uh, uh, media now. You see it in a lot of movies, a lot of TV, where the people involved are themselves just really, really big fans of what, of the material that they're working with.

[00:32:51] Uh, and that goes, you know, from sci fi into, into regular dramas and everything else. And you can tell, and you can tell the difference. Because you get these little, it goes beyond Easter eggs, it becomes a whole, like, Resurrection Phenomenon at that point. It's just, it just keeps on going, uh, but they know how to do a good show at the same time.

[00:33:07] So, if we're gonna keep a show like this going for 60 years and 70 years and, I mean, I wonder how, hypothetically, we could be around for the 100th anniversary of Doctor Who and, and, and recording a podcast about it. Um, that would be great. That would be wild now that I think about that. That, and I think if, if when that happens, and I'm just going to say it with faith it's going to happen, uh, we need to do that.

[00:33:34] Um, we absolutely need to be doing that.

[00:33:36] MICHAEL: Well, when you figure out the waterproof mic to submerge in my Futurama head tank, uh, I'm there. You know it. I'm in.

[00:33:44] JOSH: Yeah, sorry, I'm still reeling from, , the June Hudson, died and now, The Doctor's wearing a new outfit every

[00:33:51] MICHAEL: Okay, so, while I've got you reeling, Josh, this one's just for you. Are, are, are you

[00:33:55] ready? Lay

[00:33:55] it on me. Okay, so, you and I particularly, and also you on this podcast, talk a lot about Dr. Elizabeth Sandifer. And I think Russell T. Davies is opening up an American front in the last war in Albion. My man's bringing magic to American shores.

[00:34:14] Next week is about a charm circle. We're doing it. I think,

[00:34:19] JOSH: Wow.

[00:34:20] MICHAEL: like, not only is her great work, The Tardis Eruditorum, her other great work, The Last War in Albion, they're one work. I think they're one. She's accidentally cracked one

[00:34:33] work.

[00:34:34] JOSH: wow.

[00:34:34] MICHAEL: I could go on a full on magic rant, I'm holding that back for later, but like, I, I am, the magic part of this is

[00:34:45] so wild to to me.

[00:34:46] JOSH: Yeah, the magic, the magic aspect, that was sort of ushered in to the Doctor Who universe, way back in, Wild Blue Yonder, we saw the effects in The Giggle, and then now, these kinds of, God like presences are, you know, a regular fixture in the show.

[00:35:03] The Devil's Chord, I think, in a lot of ways was, kind of a, um, you know, a mission statement. It was, here's one of these new sorts of villains, and also, there was so much metatextual stuff going on with the fourth wall breaking, and, arguably this whole season is kind of crackling with that metatextual energy.

[00:35:22]

[00:35:22] MICHAEL: Can I do one more?

[00:35:23] JOSH: yes, please.

[00:35:24] MICHAEL: So, giving Ncuti Gatwa a bunch of 11th Doctor lines is further metatextualization of him replacing Matt Smith in An Adventure in Space and Time,

[00:35:35] JOSH: Oh, that's wild.

[00:35:36] MICHAEL: Like we're just, he's just like Gambit throwing deadly cards in like, he's just, yeah, everybody's at every cylinder right now.

[00:35:45] It's

[00:35:46] great. I keep saying, I keep ending all my stuff with like, it's great and I love it, but I,

[00:35:50] do

[00:35:50] like it's like, it's Cartmel Masterplan 2, this time it's personal. Like I'm just, I'm having

[00:35:56] a great it's, and this time The

[00:35:58] Doctor Who, Doctor Who, Yeah, we're really doing it actually this time. Yeah.

[00:36:02] But again, like a Scottish madman at the

[00:36:05] wheel. But now, I mean, Davies is

[00:36:07] JOSH: it's Welsh, yeah. Um, you know, it is so interesting to, whether or not all of these hints that Susan is like a metatextual head fake, however this plays out, You know, and this is something that I think Davies is very aware of, how TV works in terms of the relationship it has with the audience, and how an audience watches TV, and, from that perspective, like, in a certain way, I mean, this is, is gonna sound quite stupid, but, in a certain way, It doesn't matter what the answer is because the deliciousness, the fun of it is this, the noticing, the wondering, And I think Davies knows that.

[00:36:50] you know, ' cause you can tell in, press interviews in the, You know, on the Doctor Who podcast, on Doctor Who Unleashed, on the commentaries, he, he is so good at dropping hints, giving the exact right amount and kind of information in the right way, like he's For him, that's a part of the show.

[00:37:11] That's a part of his job. Knowing how to mete out information and his role in terms of engaging with audience. And that's something I'm, I'm, I'm trying not to speak ill of the dead, but that's something that was very sorely missing in the Chris Chibnall era.

[00:37:32] MICHAEL: The pointless secrecy killed that. Yeah, it just, it hurt him. It

[00:37:36] hurt him badly.

[00:37:37] JOSH: It was definitely against his instincts, his like, his spoiler phobic instincts, his let's not show or say anything. Whereas, like, we've known, so many of the elements in these episodes.

[00:37:49] Like, I was having a conversation with someone a couple weeks ago before Space Babies, and they were like, you know, we know this about Space Babies, and this about Space Babies, and this about Space Babies. And I was like, yeah, except we don't actually know what it's about. so what's the problem, right?

[00:38:04] And I think it's, um, you know, Davies very savily is like, there's no way we can hide all this stuff, so let's give them a bunch of stuff to look at and chew on while we hide the real mystery over here, right?

[00:38:20] MICHAEL: One of my early notes on here that I kept forgetting to get around to is like, this feels like Doctor Who for the TikTok generation, right? It's very clippable and biteable and, but it's also fluently for people of like our generation and older as well. Well, Not so many older, anyway, whatever.

[00:38:38] Don't worry about them. Um, but, feeding into the like Davies and, and, and Moffat on the same wavelength thing. Have you seen the clip of Steven Moffat being like, uh, uh, boom, I'm back on Doctor Who, I don't know if it's going to bring everybody joy to the world. And you're like, they're stunting on us.

[00:38:55] I love this. Like, they're really doing, they, like, like you say, they're incorporation Every opportunity to talk about the show is a chance to drop hints and provide fans things to go back to and like re watch that clip again.

[00:39:12] And like, that sort of over analysis. Exactly. The like, early Marvel era, like, real life speculation part of it.

[00:39:22] Or like Lost, when Lost was huge and everybody was guessing everything about that. Like, I think, A good modern show has to have that, at least in this type of wavelength, that, that, that kind of wild speculation stuff is, is now kind of a vital element, and Davies and Moffat's understanding of that is,

[00:39:44] JOHN: It's, it's so vital and it's been so missing from so many other shows recently. I think of the, speaking of, speaking of the dead, the now destroyed Game of Thrones. I would gather as many friends as I could.

[00:39:58] Josh, you remember it, we lived together during these, during these nights. It was Sunday night, as many people as possible, we'd watch the show, and there was the hour of watching the show, in almost silence. And then an hour to two hours afterwards on a Sunday night. This is, you know, you got work the next day. Discussing all the hypotheticals. Does this mean this? Because most of us have read the books, but it's different than the books. It was going to go further than the books. The theoretical and the debate, the fun that had, and, and there, yeah, there are these sort of amateur intellectual exercises we're going through trying to figure out storytelling, trying to figure out greater themes from Philosophy to, you know, religious notions.

[00:40:36] Everything was in there and it gave us I love that you started off this entire podcast with the idea that we got a meal in this episode. Well, that's what this is. You have a meal to savor, to talk about, to Different flavors come back at different points. There's There, you know It was so much, and that's because you were working with something that operated on numerous levels, and the audience obsessed over that.

[00:40:59] The audience, people who'd never done that before, were doing that, and the precursor to that really was Lost, uh, as you just said, Michael, but that was a show that got everybody in and guessing it. So to fast forward to, uh, uh, the Chibnall years and be, and be spoiler phobic. To me is so irrational because that's what gets you going with something.

[00:41:20] That's what gets the juices really flowing. You say, well, this, what does this mean? It's not just I've watched it for an hour. I'm done. I go on with my life and my, and my week. If you want a show to be compelling, you need people to be coming back to it. During their non watching hours, they need to just be coming back.

[00:41:34] Like, wait, what did that mean? What did this mean? Could this be linked to that? What, how does it apply to even my life? Maybe anything and everything you wanna do that it has to give you more if you want it to have real staying power. And sometimes something as basic as a soap opera can do that for a lot of people, which is why they have a lot of staying power.

[00:41:49] So to just sort of cut that part out and say no, we don't care about it, we're going to do our own thing, and we don't want anybody to anticipate anything, well, anticipation is half the fun, we know that, I mean, that's, that's romance. Much of romance is the anticipation, not the actual event, not the relationships, not sexuality, it's, The anticipation of what's to come and this is what we're getting now.

[00:42:11] What are the next, you know, four or five episodes going to be before the end of the season, which tragically is such a short season. Um, I feel like we've ended so many of our best reviews of other shows that we've really enjoyed with that idea of, well, What, what are you excited for what's to come? And you can't do that unless there are all these little pieces being built for something.

[00:42:31] And obviously Davies is just setting us up for that. And is setting, and Moffat's like, yeah, he, I mean, Moffat was the king of that with the Silence. It was, it was practically, what was it? Almost two seasons that that really was relevant, uh, to the storytelling. And you didn't know what it was, but you were given these little morsels and pieces and clues and hints and a build up, while having episodes that stood on their own.

[00:42:53] This episode is a standalone episode. You don't need to know anything about Doctor Who, uh, you don't really need to have any backstory. We get all these benefits from it as well, but it stands alone. But when you put it in the context of something bigger, you're going to look back at it and say, ah, yes.

[00:43:09] And, you know, last week we knew that Maestro was going to be perfectly coming back. We know that's part of the Toymaker storyline. But even that episode can still stand on its own. And that's, and that's a really fine line to walk. Can you make an episode watchable? on its own without needing mythology, but really giving the existing audience, the long term audience, so much to work with, so much to enjoy and nerd out on. And I think that's what they know the show is about. They say, you gotta, gotta make it accessible and gotta give the rest of us something to really sink our teeth into.

[00:43:41] MICHAEL: Yeah, I think to, to, to both of your points about the, the cleverness about the leaks and the, well, not so much leaks, but like the way that we've been informed about stuff. I mean, we spent to, you know, back to last week, we spent so long obsessing about, you know, the Beatles don't look exactly like that, that none of us were mentally or emotionally prepared for I love my dog.

[00:44:00] Like none of us could have ever like been ready for that, you know? So it's like the, the, the, the The way they've been doling that stuff out, like you said, and we still don't know what any of the plots are, like even next week, the preview is like, Susan Twist, she's at it again! And you're like, Oh no, they noticed!

[00:44:20] Um, so I, I, I'm so jazzed, but I have no idea what that's going to be. Uh, and maybe I've read it completely wrong too, but the, that's

[00:44:29] JOSH: s something about next week that I'm very intrigued by, um, Russell Davies says that he thinks it's the best work he's ever done.

[00:44:39] JOHN: Interesting. That's, that's almost a dangerous notion to drop because it builds the expectations, but now it'll probably make me watch it with a Deeper sense and less of a casual sense. I want to know what he means by that.

[00:44:55] MICHAEL: This is what we're talking about, about the hype machine. Like I, I went from 10 to 12 on my excitement for next week. Just hearing you

[00:45:04] say that,

[00:45:05] JOSH: like, what could that,

[00:45:06] MICHAEL: they've got word of mouth

[00:45:07] down. Yeah, what does yeah, what is that,

[00:45:09] What does

[00:45:09] that?

[00:45:10] JOSH: it possibly mean?

[00:45:11] MICHAEL: What is

[00:45:11] JOSH: even if it means nothing, like, I'm still hyped,

[00:45:14] MICHAEL: Like, literally, like, one of the preview clips for Boom was Steven Moffat saying like, I took away one thing from The Doctor, and to find out the one thing I took away from The Doctor, watch Boom. And I've watched Boom, and I'm like, what did, no, you took like 20 things away from The Doctor. What are you talking, you left him with his voice.

[00:45:30] Like, that's it. So, just, the hype, the way they're hyping this stuff up is so, like, tricky and effective. it's, great.

[00:45:41] JOSH: in the interest of wrapping up, I want to ask if you guys have any notes or anything that, uh, you wanted to mention that you haven't gotten to yet.

[00:45:48] MICHAEL: Uh, I think one the audience listening is probably yelling at us right now. We have gotta talk about, uh, Varada Sethu's, like first appearance on the show before she is the next companion. Um, definitely earned the

[00:46:01] gig, like she's incredible and given some dialogue that I, worry a lot of people will just be like, Moffat tropes, but like, whatever.

[00:46:11] She's, she's this cool character. I dug the whole, the Mundy Sunday gag is like, what we're, what we're here for, you know? Like it's, yeah, she was fantastic. And she shot The Doctor several times.

[00:46:24] JOSH: She did.

[00:46:25] MICHAEL: They still ended up hugging. And I'm a little certain that she stole the TARDIS key in the hug. Um, uh, to be continued on that.

[00:46:36] Again, the social media was like, she's playing a different character, don't worry about it, but wink. I don't know.

[00:46:44] JOSH: Well, they were playing a little, coy, and properly so, in the InVision commentary, that Moffat and Davies did, And, you know, there are shades of the Oswin, Jenna Coleman appearance in Asylum of the Daleks, where she's a different character, and, um, you know, I mean, the real answer is, probably like a Freema Agyeman or, uh, Karen Gillan situation where they saw them, and they were like, Oh!

[00:47:11] They're really good! We should have them on the show, like, full time. I mean, I'm almost certain that that's what actually happened. And then if there is any acknowledgement, in the world of the show itself, it was almost certainly an afterthought that was kind of retrofitted, oh, but yeah, she was phenomenal. She's great and you, and you totally get why they called her up after and were like, hey, you want to, you want to be the new companion on the show? Um, I'm also very intrigued because, um,, again, we don't know how it's going to play out, but, Ruby Sunday is not leaving the show.

[00:47:38] there is definitely some overlap. I don't know. I mean, obviously, we don't know if Ruby will last beyond season two, but they are definitely, the both of them, present for season two. So,

[00:47:51] JOHN: well in the past, is they bring in multiple companions. Uh, we got overloaded with companions, uh, uh, uh, with the previous Doctor, I think. Uh, it became the notion of constant, like, almost a revolving door. But there's a long history, especially going back to the early Davies years. You know, you'd have multiple companions for different roles.

[00:48:09] That was Captain Jack for a couple episodes. Uh, and then that was the, that's, that was the launch pad for an entirely different series. Uh, That, uh, Torchwood, which I thought was brilliant. So, uh, I think they'll always surprise us with interesting ways of that, but, you know, it doesn't have to just be one companion at any point.

[00:48:28] JOSH: um, any last, thoughts that we didn't, we didn't cover?

[00:48:34] JOHN: Yeah, I mean, just another call out to the performances of everybody in that episode. Um, um, Ncuti Gatwa just, I mean, he, he blew my mind in this episode because of just the gravity and levity at different times of his performances.

[00:48:48] And so, yeah, we spoke about this in other episodes. I'm already sold on him as The Doctor, and I'm not gonna quite say it yet, but he's inching his way up there in the top echelon. Uh, for me, very, very, very quickly. Um, but, onto that, all the great performances, because there weren't that many performances.

[00:49:05] This was an episode with, uh, four, eight credited, eight credited actors. Uh, this was essentially a play. Uh, a small cast play on one or two sets. Uh, it really wasn't big, and that's so interesting to me because this is with Disney money. So they're not just taking this idea of, now we gotta go crazy. Like, it looked really good.

[00:49:31] Uh, and if that was an AR wall or something like that, it was a really good one. They, they were clearly putting the production value into it, but they weren't just like, let's do this, and this, and this, and then we have the money. Let's just put everything out there we possibly can. This that's like, all we need. Is one major set. Uh, and we're going to tell one hell of a story on it that it, that to me is a good, that bodes well for the future of the season and for the future of the series that it's not, it's not gonna be corrupted by too much money because that's a genuine concern. You can really just, you know, you know, swim around in money like Scrooge McDuck and that can be your entire life as a showrunner.

[00:50:07] This is going to be something where they clearly really do look at it. Well, we have a story to tell and we're just going to, we're just going to make it look as good as possible. But we're not going to forget that it's about the story.

[00:50:19] MICHAEL: To that point, I love that we ended with a quote unquote proper TARDIS dematerialization shot. And it not only felt like, it didn't just feel like, Oh, this is a way to save some money. It also felt like something we'd built up to over the course of these episodes. Like, and it, it fit thematically and it felt right.

[00:50:39] So I just, yeah, the, the very conscious production part of it too, is amazing to see.

[00:50:47] Also sometimes it just feels like Russell Davies is like looking down the barrel of the camera and going. They, they're paying for this. They're paying for this, and I, that is an aspect of this new series that I, like, I, when I first saw the new title sequence, I was just like, oh my god, they believe in this too.

[00:51:05] Like, this is great. They're spending the money. They believe in it too.

[00:51:09] JOSH: no, totally. Speaking to things that both of you said, they did have an AR wall, uh, not for the whole shoot, so there were a lot of, shots down in the crater where didn't necessarily need the full background. So they actually had, like a psyche that was the painted sky. So it was like, you know, very old school.

[00:51:26] And then they had the AR wall for a few days and they shot all the AR wall stuff. One thing I thought was very cool was the two shots. I think one of them is the dematerialization shot where the TARDIS doors are open and you see into the TARDIS. That was the AR wall. if you were to move the TARDIS prop, you would see the inside console room.

[00:51:47] in the middle of the alien landscape.

[00:51:50] MICHAEL: That's what it's for. That's what it's for. That's what this stuff is for. Yes, it's not just for the Mandalorian sitting in an outdoor, boring, sandy thing. It's for this. This is what it's for. I love This

[00:52:02] This is incredible.

[00:52:04] JOSH: on the InVision commentary, um, Speaking to what you said earlier, John, about you know, having writers, creators, showrunners who are fans and who, who know all the lore, all the stuff, um, on the Univision commentary when they were talking about that, um, there was a third EP, uh, Joel something whose, name is escaping me.

[00:52:22] I feel terrible. But he was describing how they shot that. And Russell Davies said, well, it's really No different than what they did in Meglos with the Scene Sync, and it's really funny, if anyone has the Meglos DVD, there's a special feature about how they used Scene Sync technology, which was a new thing, where, when they moved, the camera on the green screen, it would move in, uh, sink with the camera that was shooting the model or the background so you could move the camera and have everything move.

[00:52:53] And it was just so amazing that like, know, Russell Davies is like, well, I mean, it's, just like what they did in 1980. And in some sense, he's right. It is. I just thought that

[00:53:03] MICHAEL: Not only can he not take his flowers, he has to compare himself to Meglos. Like, he just, he can't Take a, it, it, it's a nice to see that I'm not alone in being like critically incapable of taking a compliment like that . It's just, it's the same as in Meglos. Okay. Sure, bud.

[00:53:22] love you, man.

[00:53:23]

[00:53:24] JOSH: but yeah, next week, um, 74 Yards, I believe, is the title of the episode, written by Russell T. Davies, and, uh, if he is to be believed, it's the best or among the best work he's ever done, which, I, I wasn't interested before, and I'm at an 11 or 12 now. Um, Any final closing thoughts before we sign off here?

[00:53:46] interrupting our time stream, it looks like, it looks like Guy has taken control of our TARDIS. Hey, Guy.

[00:53:53] GUY: Oh no. What's what's going on, everybody. Thank you for joining me in my smaller on the inside than outside TARDIS. AKA broom closet that they give us for work.

[00:54:04] JOSH: I wanted to get your thoughts on this because I didn't want to dare break your unbroken streak. I think you've appeared on So far, every episode of

[00:54:11] GUY: except one, the first one.

[00:54:13] JOSH: except the first one.

[00:54:14] GUY: Except the first one, yeah.

[00:54:15] JOSH: Uh, well then, uh, we'll consider that one the, you know, the pilot episode that, didn't have all the elements in place yet.

[00:54:23] GUY: Perfect.

[00:54:24] JOSH: but yeah, I definitely wanted to get your thoughts on this episode. I think, you know, no matter what you thought of it, somewhat momentous, Steven Moffat's return. What were your, your overall thoughts of Boom?

[00:54:36] GUY: Well, I, I, I enjoyed it. I was actually, um, they kept it a secret for a long time that he was coming back, uh, as a writer or, and, and, and as I guess, uh, executive producer on this episode.

[00:54:53] JOSH: Yeah, I thought that was a lovely, professional courtesy touch. It seems like, you know, you're, I mean, you were the showrunner for, how long was he showrunner? Seven years? when you come back to do a guest spot, you can, EP on your episode.

[00:55:04] I thought that was, I thought that was

[00:55:06] GUY: That was, yeah, that was, it was nice. I liked it, I liked it, I don't know that I liked it as much as everyone, on the internet and what I, I, I, just chatting with you via text. Uh, I don't think I liked it as much as everybody else did, uh, which is fine. I still think The Devil's Chord was a stronger episode for me.

[00:55:29] I felt that while the concept was excellent, it was, is well executed, I just felt that it was, it's a great acting piece. It was a really wonderful acting piece for everybody involved except for the little girl. I just think that she was given short shrift in the fact that. There was no, I don't even remember her name.

[00:55:49] Oh, Splice. So, see, I do remember it. So, he does bring interesting character names. she was, I think she was an older actor trying to act younger than her age. that was my biggest issue. Uh, there are really wonderful children, child actors out there. Um, I just don't think this suited the show very well. I didn't, I thought it was, you know, and I think that, that her character, the way it was written, did disservice to the actress.

[00:56:18] JOSH: It did feel like the character was written to be younger, you know, I kind of rationalized it as, this kid has grown up in a war zone, lost her mom, like, you know, maybe she's a little, she has a little arrested development of some kind.

[00:56:31] I mean, it wasn't that extreme. It was like she was like,

[00:56:33] GUY: Oh, come on, Josh. She was like, oh, here's some pretty pictures. Oh, look at, you know, she's on a battlefield, but she's like, oh, I remember this photo. It took me out because I was just like, of any kind of emotional connection I had with the scene going on, anytime it cut to her and her like, oh, she, she reminded me of the dog from Up. Oh, I, are you my master? Oh, squirrel! You know, I mean, she just got distracted by like, oh, here's a shiny light image of her father, but she doesn't know that that's not her dad, really? And so I feel like I'm really, I think I'm backtracking and going to the negatives and now I'll go to the positives. Um, it was well done.

[00:57:17] I mean, Ncuti did an exceptional job for being still 99 percent of the time. And I think Millie did an exceptional job of, of being the one that is creating the movement around. Uh, I even like the two soldiers. I thought that in the time that was given, that Steven Moffat's a great writer. He's a really, really great writer.

[00:57:45] Um, that I, he, he developed these two characters that I actually did care about. And that moment where the flash at the very end, and I guess spoilers if you haven't seen the show, I mean that's, this is on you. But when, when the, the, the guy, uh, you realize that he's dead. After them, after the two soldiers basically tell.

[00:58:07] Each other that they like each other and all of a sudden, boom, flash and now he's a, a flesh tube, a flesh light. That was actually a very jarring, sad, sad moment. Um, I like the show. I just thought it was, it was an actor's piece. It was boring, visually. There was, I mean, the, the special effects around them.

[00:58:30] were great and I thought that seeing some of the behind the scenes stuff that they did to create the, you know, to help create the world with the, what they do on like the Mandalorian with the screen, you know, they have the screen, you know, projected so the actors can be in that environment. I thought that was, it was really well done.

[00:58:49] I just thought as a As a adventure. It lacked adventuring,

[00:59:00] JOSH: I would like to, dig a little deeper into what you think might be missing or changed, now that it's on the Disney Plus platform. I am curious, like, what left you with the impression that, you know, maybe this episode was pitched a little differently, or was missing something.

[00:59:16] GUY: I think that this was definitely pitched differently than say, even like Terror of the Zygons. I'm like, for why that is coming, it's striking me because it even, even the, the 70s

[00:59:33] There's a style, a, it's a, it's, it's slow burn getting into it, but then it gets into it. It just finally like ramps up. And I think it ramps up to, to that, that cliffhanger that, you know, classic who is known for. And I think that this one was pitched at there's just a slow burn.

[00:59:53] There's no, yes, there is an emerge, there's an urgency in, every time the lights kind of grew together, I still felt there was this pacing. It was one language, soft, gentle pace to get to the end. There was no, no

[01:00:09] JOSH: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, obviously, like, your read is as valid as anybody's. but I felt like there was certainly a ratcheting up of the tension. I noted with, uh, John and Michael, like, my heart stopped when Ruby was shot. I thought there actually was, like, a clever sort of twist. tightening of the vice around the situation and I felt it was actually you know if anything thought it was a little maybe too for like a Disney audience

[01:00:39] GUY: But that, we know that that's not going to go anywhere. That her being shot was a, just to get her out of this,

[01:00:48] she was, she's coming back for the next episode.

[01:00:51] JOSH: no, but I'm not necessarily You know talking about like, is Ruby gonna make it or not? I'm talking about, you know, imagine a kid or a family watching this, who doesn't necessarily have that faith and knowledge that she is coming back. And then just also, beyond that, like, The guest cast, they die in very, you know, horrible and emotion and emotionally gut wrenching, like the two, like, the father, John Francis Vader, and the, um,

[01:01:15] like, when both of them go, It's gut wrenching to see the effect that it has on the people that they left behind.

[01:01:25] I mean, I don't know, I think it's pretty intense for, for a Disney audience, especially if you're concerned about them, you having some influence or Disneyfying the show. Like, I didn't get that impression from this at all. Like, what I think it was, was an experiment. It was, you know, I am Steven Moffat, I'm challenging myself to write an episode where the Doctor is on one leg for half the time and can't move. Like, just to see if I can make it hard for myself, you know what I mean? And I think, you know , it's totally fine if it, if it didn't work for you or for everyone.

[01:01:57] For me, I was like, yep, he did it, he did that. He, he made an episode out of, The Doctor standing on one leg for an hour. I was like,

[01:02:06] GUY: appreciate the commentary on weapons of war.

[01:02:10] The whole, like, the war machine, the war, like, the industrial war complex. actually that, I think, that moment, where the, the, it's, they're fighting themselves.

[01:02:20] They're, they're, I mean, that was more jarring than, to me, than Ruby getting shot. to piggyback what you've said about, that moment would have been jarring to most, maybe kids coming in and watching it. I didn't think it, I think Ruby getting so soon into the series where we really have not really gotten to know her.

[01:02:39] I think Adric's death was more shocking to me. because we had had a lot of time to grow with this character. A lot of these people have had a week. Meaning when you, in the grand scheme of things between the, the three episodes airing that you just, it, it just came at a weird time. You knew she's not, I knew she's not gonna go.

[01:03:00] I just, anyway, long story short, oh God, I really sound like I didn't like the show, but I, I really liked it. I give it a seven and a half out of ten,

[01:03:09] JOSH: One of the reasons why I was really keen to invite you to, interrupt the time stream here is because I did want, a different perspective, so that's great.

[01:03:18] And, the other thing too that I think we all have to, remind ourselves is that, you know, when you're talking about Steven Moffat, we are grading on a curve, because the quality level is so high, the, baseline is so high, we don't even have to mention that it's good, because of course it's good.

[01:03:35] So, like, here's what there is to talk about.

[01:03:39] GUY: And can I just, like, just do a little tangent really quick? While I'm all for emotion in Doctor Who and pathos in acting and whatnot, but it's just something that I'm noticing and I'm just wondering why has our current Doctor been crying for the last three episodes?

[01:03:57] JOSH: Hmm.

[01:03:58] GUY: It just seems like a a crutch. It's like a Boy Who Cried Wolf type emotional, response to get an emotion, like from the audience. Like, I'm like, he's crying again. I, I, I want to cry. I want to be the one to feel, don't telegraph to me that, this is how I should be feeling. The music has, the music for years, especially with Murray Gold and I'm so glad he's back, uh, has helped.

[01:04:27] me inform, inform my own emotional response. yet for the last three episodes, it's been telegraphed that I should be feeling sad and almost in tears like The Doctor is. And so this is, I think this is what, this is what is beginning nagging me is that I don't need, you don't need to tell me how to feel.

[01:04:50] Let me, By what you are showing me, I feel that myself. So it's just, it's kind of like, it's like a cheat.

[01:04:59] Ncuti, you're a great actor. Wonderful actor. I think, let's, let's bring it back. Let's, let's, let's I think that a lot of it's just been telegraphed.

[01:05:11] JOSH: well, that's interesting. And I will say something that Russell has said a few times. I've heard him say this a few times. I've read him say this. Um, is that the one thing that is definitely new about Ncuti's Doctor is he's very, um, he wears his emotions on his sleeve.

[01:05:29] GUY: And his face!

[01:05:31] JOSH: and his face, you know, when he's happy, he's joyous and he's,

[01:05:35] GUY: Sounds bipolar to me. Lamictal will take care of that.

[01:05:39] JOSH: And, you know, as you've noted, he's also, he, he, he cries, he, he, he shows his emotions, he feels his emotions on the outside, which until now hasn't been something The Doctor has done. It's been the opposite. I mean, especially in The Last Incarnation, Jodie Whittaker was, and Capaldi were very, guarded about showing their emotions.

[01:06:02] GUY: I think a little goes a long way and I think that, you know, I think that I have been given, you know, while I love the new series, a lot of what I would like to feel as a viewer has been taken away because it's now being, it's like I'm instructed like this is how you should be feeling now, this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:06:22] You know, it's just like I would like to get there on my own, I just think a little bit goes a long

[01:06:27] way.

[01:06:28] JOSH: No, I would agree with you. And you know, um, you brought up Murray Gold in the music before. I love Murray Gold. I love his music. I will say though, that I do think that on occasion, the music is a little heavy handed in that it is, it's telling you what the show wants you to be feeling.

[01:06:46] GUY: Right.

[01:06:47] JOSH: normally I would find that a problem, except I love Murray Gould's music, so I'm always just happy to hear more of it.

[01:06:55] Um, and that does represent a huge break with the classic series. you know, the way the classic series used music, they were much more, experimental with the music. And it was, you know, much more of like a, like a seasoning,

[01:07:09] GUY: of a character in its own

[01:07:10] JOSH: instead of a character in its own right. Um, but, uh, your point is taken. That is definitely something I noticed.

[01:07:16] I was like, he's crying again.

[01:07:18] Okay,

[01:07:19] GUY: Not that I, I, I'm all opposed to it. I mean, I'm a, I'm a weeper. I'm a weeper. I love, I mean, I, I show my, I wear my emotions on my sleeve too. So, um, it'll be interesting to see if, uh, next week's, this coming, this week's episode, If He Cries Again, I will have this conversation again.

[01:07:39] I, this whole conversation, I think I've been just this one big opinionated biatch. No, that's good. That's, that's why we're doing a podcast. It's why you it's why you do

[01:07:49] Oh, I'm out of coffee.

[01:07:52] JOSH: guy, I will let you go. will you please return control of the TARDIS and return me to my time stream?

[01:07:58] GUY: Okay, yes, yes. Let me, let me just get that on right now.

[01:08:03] JOSH: going, but, um, I want to thank my guests, John and Michael, and, , Michael, where can, people find the Game of Rassilon podcast?

[01:08:12] MICHAEL: We have just wrapped up our five and a little extra, because there was a strike thing, don't worry about it, uh, run, but it's five years of great Doctor Who stories, if I do say so myself. Um, so yeah, if you're, if you're in the need of more Doctor Who, you can find it there. And then later this year, we'll be starting a new show called Good Chaotic, which will be all the wild fun of our actual play pod with Doctor Who.

[01:08:35] None of the intellectual property of other companies. Uh, so we're very excited to bring that to you later this year. And, uh, till then, find me on the various socials, media, and hopefully back here. And it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for letting me just like cut loose and have fun.

[01:08:50] JOSH: We are enriched for it, and you will have to come back, at some point, during the season. We'll make it happen. John I'm sorry, I assumed, you didn't have anything you wanted, to plug, but I just wanted to double check.

[01:08:59] JOHN: Not

[01:09:00] JOSH: Okay. Oh,

[01:09:00] interesting.

[01:09:01] MICHAEL: Damn, John is bringing the like

[01:09:06] cliffhanger on

[01:09:07] JOHN: Davies magic there,

[01:09:08] MICHAEL: Ooh, I like that.

[01:09:11] JOSH: Well, thanks for listening, everyone. We are Tardis Rubbish. across all social media. And we will see you on the next one. Please run fast, love hard, and be kind.