Design the Future w/ Lindsay Baker & Kira Gould

 If we want the stories about sustainability and the buildings industry to resonate, we have to tell them in ways that the various audiences can absorb them. And that includes some of the audiences in our own community. 

Welcome to Tangible Remnants.  I'm Nakita Reed, and this is my show where I explore the interconnectedness.  of architecture, preservation, sustainability, race, and gender. I'm excited that you're here. So let's get into it.  Welcome back. This week's episode features a fun conversation with Lindsay Baker and Kira Gould.

These two women are amazing advocates for sustainability in the AEC industry and have an inspiring podcast called design the future.  They had me on their podcast last year, and it was really fun in this conversation to be able to turn the tables and interview them.  Whenever we get together, it's a good time and we get to talk about the trends that we're seeing in the field and nerd out just a little bit. 

It was really a great conversation and I think it will provide lots of insight for anyone interested in getting into the sustainability profession and trying to figure out what path to take.  During the conversation, we chat about what got them into their perspective fields and the trends that they're seeing, as well as some recommendations that they have for students. 

There were a few moments where we got into the  So be sure to check out the podcast Instagram page for some additional images of what we were referencing,  and you can read their full bios in the show notes. But for now, just know that Lindsay Baker is the CEO of the international living future Institute, which created the living building challenge.

And Carol gold is a writer and strategist dedicated to advancing design leadership and climate action.  The building spotlight this week is the Morris and Gwendolyn K. Fritz Foundation Environmental Center at the Alice Ferguson Foundation in Acakeek, Maryland. And links to this building can be found in the show notes and along with images on Instagram.

I am super excited to share this episode with you. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation between me, Lindsay Baker and Kira Gould.  Well, I am super excited to be joined by Lindsay Baker and Kira Gould today. And so I would love, love, love for both of you. to share with the listeners a little bit about your journeys into the field of sustainability.

And so why don't we start with Lindsay?  Yeah, sure. So I've been at this for, I guess, a couple of decades now. I got interested in sustainability. I guess I should say, I started off being an environmentalist. That's kind of still how I, Identify myself, I guess, in the community, and I got really interested in buildings and the role that buildings could play as a climate solution and just in terms of the role that they played in making our lives better.

And so I started working in the green building world. My parents basically thought there were no jobs in it, and they were concerned that, like, I wanted to be a professional environmentalist. And what is that even? But I found my way into I was just really fortunate. I guess I found my way into the world of buildings.

Pretty early. I went to Oberlin college and got to hang out with this very, very super green building for four years while I was there. And it just got, got me really interested. And I've always loved working with people whose, whose job it is to shelter other people, like it's the best. Career  sort of profession that I can think of, but, uh, yeah, so for me, it's all kind of always been about sustainability and buildings were just the little niche of that that I found early on.

And I'm, I'm hooked. I don't know. There's just like so many different little pieces of the world of sustainability and buildings, just buildings in general that you kind of never get bored thinking about all these different. ways that they can make our world better, our lives better, or whatever it is.

And I love that you made that connection early on because there's so many people who still don't equate buildings to sustainability at all, which is wild to me, but they could just. Right. Wild. Yeah, I totally agree.  Well, Kara, what about you? So my background, well, I actually was raised by an architect and an interior designer.

So I was sort of in the field a little bit that way. And when I started college, I thought I would be, I thought I would become an architect, but I really wanted to write as well. And I did not quite realize until I got into college that you couldn't actually. Study those two things at the same time and get out in five or six years.

So I ended up pulling out of architecture school and getting an undergrad degree in journalism. And it wasn't until grad school that I got sort of back into architecture. And I, a professor that I met in New York at Parsons, Jean Gardner, just sort of opened my eyes up to the idea of sustainability, and that is not the word she was using at the time.

This would have been  in the. 90s. My arc is a little bit longer than Lindsay's, but I started reading E. O. Wilson and Janine Benyus and, you know, it kind of, I was deep in the rabbit hole and there was no coming back. You can't unknow that stuff. So I was just super lucky to, I happened to be in New York doing my master's work at a time when There were some early, some people really experimenting with some of these things.

Randy Croxton and Kirsten Childs were doing the Audubon House project in New York, which was a major retrofit project. I mean, now it's so funny that that's like the rage now in sustainability is retrofits, right?  But back then they were really, they were doing that and then coming at it with a really holistic sustainability lens.

by which I mean they were looking at all kinds of material recycling, but also all the human health stuff really deeply looking at that, like access to light and views, all the stuff. So that was like my thesis project coming out of grad school, which was super fun. So I'm very lucky, you know, how those things work in life.

It's just complete serendipity. I didn't, you don't realize at the time when you're in it, that that's so fortunate. And then later looking back, I'm like, Oh my gosh, what a gift.  Right. And like, and I love the fact that also you wanted to blend Writing and architecture because I feel like many architects don't write about the work that they're doing.

And sometimes we're not the we being architects. We're not the best storytellers of the work that we're doing and the impact that it's having. And so I'm really excited that. Both of you are in the roles that you're in doing what you do because Kira, when we first met, I didn't realize that you weren't an architect because I saw you all over AIA everything.

And I was like, oh, Kira knows all the architects. She knows everybody. It's like, wait, what do you mean? She's not an architect. What is that? So that was fascinating. I have, I do, I have hung out with AIA folks. So much that I now almost routinely introduce myself in the negative because otherwise I feel a little bit like I'm trying to pass as an architect, you know, and I'm not an architect.

I am not, it's, I'm not even trained as an architect. Like Lindsay, I am not an architect. So I'm not even trained. I mean, honestly, I feel like, um, yeah, well, this is probably oversharing, but like I've dated a lot of architects. You know, like, wasn't it  plenty,  plenty, I believe if I'm not mistaken, you are an architect and are married to an architect.

It's just the  sort of,  you really crossed the line there.  I mean, to help with that a little bit though, I'm very much into historic preservation, whereas my husband is very much new construction through and through. So I'm just like, nah,  we don't work together. We never, we never would. It's fine.  They are.

They are very different things. Totally. Yeah. No, I, I actually think that's still kind of something that I find fascinating about working with architects is that like, like I mentioned, you know, I learned this, I learned this whole profession through the eyes of watching a building in its first few years of life that had all of these very lofty aspirations that the architect had given it.

And I was there to watch it actually see, like, what had happened, like, would the building manifest the way that it was designed to? So for me, it's kind of always been about buildings, and I, and I always, like, sometimes I have to remind myself that for most people around me, it's actually just about the design and construction process.

But for me, it's never, there's no dividing line. There's no separating like the creation. Like, I know that there are so many architects who don't have access to some of that post occupancy data or to actually know if the building is performing the way it was designed. So I love that that was kind of what you went into as a specialty.

Like, listen, no, what, how's it working? Show me  what's it doing. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, that is the biggest. One of the biggest, I think, blind spots and, and frankly, massive gaps in this industry. Like, no other industry that, that has any, like, approach to, to R& D would possibly not study what they do, how it's working, and then, like, the feedback loop that comes out of that.

Like, it is unbelievable. Now, I mean, I, I understand all the reasons why. I mean, there are many... Liability reasons and client protect, you know, privacy reasons and all these things, but it is ridiculous if you think about it as a body of work that we do not, you know, sort of glean information from, from what's working and of course, all the things that really aren't working quite like we thought, or we don't even know.

That's even the work, even work. We're going to keep repeating those mistakes. And we don't the things that I am really appreciative about the barrier screen reading, rating systems, particularly with the fact that, well, what's happening? Like let's actually do some post occupancy performance and evaluations.

And so I'm realizing, Lindsay, why don't we pause for a second? And you can talk a little bit about the ILFI to let listeners know what that is and your role there.  Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I am, I'm very fortunate. I am the CEO of the International Living Future Institute, very lofty name, but I think actually pretty lofty ambitions as well. 

Maybe not always that lofty, but we're a nonprofit and we run programs that are basically designed to transform the building. Industry into a new era that is socially just ecologically rich and sorry, ecologically restorative and socially, we sort of work with the building industry to try to push people towards really, truly regenerative practices.

And  we do that through certification program that a lot of people have heard of called the living building challenge. Probably lots of folks haven't heard of it as well. But it's a very, very difficult challenge to build a living building  or to renovate a building to living building standards. But it's really looking at sort of what do we want our buildings to look like in the future, in this better future that we're trying to create.

And so living buildings generate all of their own energy. They treat their own water. They are made with entirely materials that are not toxic to people or the planet. They have to have ways that they impact the community in positive ways. So all these sorts of principles in one big, ambitious program.

And we work with a lot of project teams that are pursuing it and sort of celebrate and teach those principles. But yeah, I mean, it, it, it is, it's a.  I don't know. It's the certification programs. I do feel like  there's this structure that we give them. I should say, I used to work for lead back in the day.

That was one of my other stints. And I have really loved the way that these programs kind of  give people some, some sense of what the, what it looks like to design buildings with these kinds of outcomes in mind, I guess that's like a big part of it. And so that, yeah, that's what we do. We, we run those programs and.

Try to help people envision a better future. And it's one of the things that I love about the Living Building Challenge is that there's so many. Different pedals and options to get involved with it. I used to be on the board of the Alice Ferguson foundation in Akikik, Maryland. And so they did a living building challenge building way back in the day.

When I think they're probably like one of the first top first 20 or something like that to be certified, but even kind of the questions that they were having to ask of the architect in terms of like, Well, what kind of glue is going to be used to, you know, for the MEP piping? It's like, wait, what?  Like the level of detail and just fascinating.

But all really important questions to be mindful of. And like, oh, what do you mean we can't use materials on the red list? What is the red list? So like all of those kinds of things. I love that caring about humans and buildings that humans are going to be in. It's kind of important. Yeah, well, I think, I think, I mean, I will admit before I started this job, I think the Living Building Challenge and some of the things that ILFI did, they were a little fringy and they felt a little bit like, Oh my gosh, we can't possibly build buildings like this.

But the more we're watching this happen, like the Living Building Challenge has been around for over 10 years now, probably about 15 and. When it first came out, people thought it was kind of crazy that you would demand that a building not have natural gas in it. That you would, that it would be all electric.

And that, that's always been in the Living Building Challenge, all electric. And now it's like, oh, that is absolutely a thing. And same thing with a lot of the chemicals. That we're exposed to. I think it felt a little bit like wild to say that you needed to procure materials for buildings that were not going to hurt human beings because we're so surrounded by them, but it's like, what, you know, but now it's kind of like, no, that's actually right.

We haven't figured out how to make it scalable yet, but like.  We know that this is a great goal to have and a very reasonable thing to demand, but like, you know, our building materials are healthy for us and stuff. So yeah, it's kind of fun to just be a part of a community that way. Yeah. And Kira, I know, I guess, as buildings are starting to be designed.

more sustainably. I'm assuming that you've been seeing kind of articles and I guess more changes being written about how these buildings are being designed and all that. So what are some of the changes that you've been seeing in the industry over the past couple of years?  Well, I would say that in the last few years, there's just been, I've noticed a little bit of a trend towards more holistic thinking, which is very welcome.

And Frankly, a bit overdue. We, I mean, if you look at this movement in a sort of 30 year lens or so, which is about what my lens is  30 plus, we siloed it intentionally, I think, because we, we wanted, we needed market transformation. Lindsay was just talking about lead and the important role that that played, but we siloed sustainability.

From design, right? Like sustainable design was a separate kind of design or something weird and it it's still hurting us in my opinion and so there's this I feel like Many firms that are taking this seriously the kinds of firms that are pursuing Lead at the highest level and living building challenge and that are also doing just label for their firm and how they're organized.

They see the need to be more holistic and they, they also see how community and social issues are connected, not separate silos, right? Like that's the worst thing to, to have the new attention to these issues and create some new silos. So we have a bunch of them, you know, and so I'm, I'm seeing a trend, which might be.

Partly optimism because I think we need to go there, but I am seeing and hearing more holistic thinking and sit back, which I think of as actually going back to a systems thinking approach, which includes all those things. That's why we never thought that social justice would be separate from sustainability, right?

It's always been connected. And so I, I see little examples of us moving that direction. And I see some great articles from time to time about. How that's being manifest in the work and the best ones of course are the ones that are also telling  what didn't work and I think you do most often see those when they tend to be projects that are pursuing the highest the really the leading edge stuff because that's where they're testing things and some of them are not going to work.

Right. So, but you need to know and you need to hear about that. That's why I love it when I see somebody that was going after living building certification and maybe fell short on a couple of fronts, but talks about that really openly to me, that's the biggest, I mean, it goes back to what I said before, but I do think, I think we ha in order to move faster, we have to learn better, right.

And we, we just, we really have to pick up the pace on that front.  Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, one of the things that I found interesting as well, so, you know, during the. Let's see the wormhole that was 2020 with when all the architecture firms were putting out their, you know, commitments to diversity and all that sort of stuff.

There were so many firms that also had this moment of like forgetting that equity was part of sustainability and being like, well, I don't know how we talk about social justice and equity within design. It's like, what are you talking about? Sustainability's  triple bottom line is right there for you.

Always. Right there. It's, it's, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I do kind of think, I mean, I guess I've been watching this happen now, especially on the quantification side, like the certifications and things. I think, I think that there are reasons, they're not necessarily good reasons, but there are valid reasons, like, or they're, they're real.

Why we started with. Being able to kind of get our heads around things like operational carbon, you know, like how much energy does something use? Because we've been measuring that and sort of there were things happening in the energy crisis or whatever, all these things that happened in the decades before that had created the possibility for us to say, okay, this is what's good and this is better.

And this is how we measure a thing. And, you know, we haven't, I think, I think that it is largely the same community in the building industry. That has systematically started to learn how to measure these other things such that we can set goals for each other and aim for better in all of these different areas.

I think they're like, the community has grown and become more diverse, which is really important. And, but also it's. It's not, it's not a different group of people, I don't think, or it doesn't need to be so much, and I don't think that the original group of people only cared about the amount of kilowatt hours that a building was using, it was just that that was like a really easy place to start, and so there was a lot of emphasis on that, but there was, there's always been some, some threads of like, okay, and then how are we going to quantify all of these things more holistically that matter, you know?

Right. The ways the buildings impact the world. I think we're also seeing a lot of people experimenting at the edges of both practice and how they're organized and set up. I mean, I mentioned the just label and then there's B Corp, of course, but I think there are other, and there's, you know, there. Donut economics framework has inspired a lot of firms to look to think about  how can we function in a, you know, the capitalist system that exists in the world, conventional economics.

If our goals are regenerative, you know, like what does that look like? And how do we set ourselves up to like be functional, which, which of course also means profitable and pay people and all the things you have to do, but also pursue these goals that are. You know, somewhat dissonant from that other structure.

And that is a fascinating development to me. It's exciting to see it. He said it was donut economics. Yes. Yeah. Great work. And it's an amazing book. So powerful. Both really advanced. I mean, I think in part it's powerful because it really starts to ask these questions about what our world would look like when we can remove some of the influences of modern  Neoliberal economics, like some of the constraints that we put ourselves into, and I think, I feel like this probably would resonate even specifically when it comes to things like historic preservation because it's ways of trying to quantify, like break, breaking out the notion that, okay, a building is only as valuable as the market understands it to be valuable.

Like, what if we could actually do that a little bit more holistically?  So yeah, kind of, kind of start, start, she's an economist and she starts to try to break down those things and remind us that like, we haven't always valued the things around us. the way that we do now. Maybe it's possible for us to change how we value things, you know.

Well, and the notion, introducing the notion of planetary boundaries and things like that, which is really. It's a, it's a big mind shift and it is very hard to think about those things and then do work in the normal way because it produces a tremendous cognitive dissonance, I think. But it's exciting to think about it and what it might, you know, if we could start making changes.

I mean, I'm not really one who believes that we're going to be able to rewrite everything according to donor economics right away on the big scale, but the idea that individual organizations can be moving down that path as a way of helping. Organize themselves to produce more regenerative outcomes.

That's really tantalizing to me. I'm super excited to dig into this  rabbit hole. I'm going down after this one. Thank you. And so, I mean, I think part of that also, even just kind of the way that you framed it and kind of the synopsis of the book, like being able to tell a better and different story is super intriguing.

And so knowing that part of  even from preservation to sustainability and the idea of trying to make sure that we're being good ancestors to the future generations. So it's kind of like that idea of storytelling and connecting the past, present, and future is always woven in there. So I guess. As a writer, Karen, we'll start with you.

I guess, in your mind, what do you see as the kind of the impact and importance of storytelling, particularly around sustainability and within the field?  Yeah, I think there's a couple. One is, I mean, for all of us as humans, I think there's a story or narrative as part of a way that we understand how we fit in things, right?

Understanding what came before and maybe being able to envision some possible futures and that sort of thing. That's sort of, you need that a little bit in life as a ballast. Otherwise, it's just sort of like isolated in the moment in a way.  I do think there's some things happening in storytelling that are maybe not.

Super helpful to the movement.  Lots of hyperbole and lots of stressful language around existential threats. And I, I do believe it's an existential threat and I don't believe that using that term all the time is bringing a lot of people on board. I just don't. So I'm really frustrated by that. And I've tried to really tone down how I think about it because even if it is existential.

Acknowledging that in the moment does not in and of itself mobilize that many people I don't think some of us maybe it fires up, but Most people, it is paralyzing, I think, so I try not to, to do that as much as I was sort of on the train a little bit and I needed to pull way back from that. Um, and I think the story is keeping it really human centered is a generally good approach.

It works for if you're thinking about talking to your neighbor or to your client and making sure that what you're talking about. Is in this sort of sphere of understanding and reference for them, right? Like if we're speaking in those terms, we're always speaking to other humans in a way that they can hear.

They don't have to agree, but at least they can understand it instead of the complete talking past one another that is so much in the culture today. Um, so I, I think there's the, and that's kind of, I mean, that's a little bit of a, uh, maybe a lame answer because it's the, it's the sort of same old one.

Cause you can actually find common ground with any. Other human, if you try, you can't actually do that. And I think the story, if we want the stories about sustainability in the buildings industry to resonate, we have to tell them in ways that the various audiences can absorb them. And that includes some of the audiences in our own community.

I mean, the construction part of our business is a different set of folks, and they have different motivators. And we have to, I think we have to do better. And including them in those conversations in ways that they find palatable and not just, I mean, some of them are like, okay, okay, I'll just, what are the regulation, like set the regulation up and I'll make sure we can follow it.

Well, that is not super inspiring. I think we can do a little better. So, I mean, that, that applies even within the industry, not just to talking to lay people or clients or whatever like that. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.  Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. Like here, she's always so careful with words and I think that's part of like, what, like what she brings to all of this, right?

It's like making sure that the words that we're using are really precise. And, and I do think like, I mean, even just the way you frame it as storytelling, I think is an important distinction from convincing or otherwise sort of like trying to argue a point. And, and, and part of the reason for that is that I think.

We are surrounded by people who are pretty good at arguing a point that might be a precise one, you know, even if we just talk about the idea of climate change and this notion that there's like, that we're, that we've got like this deadline that's about to hit in seven years.  I don't personally believe in, I don't think about things in relation to a seven year time frame.

I think about things that, that need to happen now and yesterday and will need to happen tomorrow. And like, and so, and when you tell stories  about people's lives, about the way that Our planet, our buildings impact each other and you know, all of that, it, it, it gives more opportunity to tell the, the complex and really rich and really relatable story that's sort of that, that we need to communicate when we're talking about these sort of intersecting crises that we're experiencing in our world and when you just sort of say.

You know, 1. 5 degrees or else, and we got seven, seven years to do it. And here's the graph that shows you how we're doing or whatever. That's not a story. That's like just kind of talking points. And I don't think that they work very well and they're just not really aligned with like, what is it that we actually have to get done?

They don't. And I mean, that's where, and that's where the designers potential, the potential for the design community is.  We can, what the design community really should be doing the story that one of the stories that it is, in my opinion, their responsibility to be telling is how it can be, what is, what is the possible future help envision that if you can envision that for any community, they will help make it because it will be so enticing and fantastic.

It's like, you can't, you know, yell at someone about how we need transit oriented development, but if you can show them what kind of life that would. Produce then they could get excited about it. Right? Like, I mean, it's just like that it we have to really demonstrate the power of what's possible. I think we'll just make it much easier.

And you can still say 1. 5 and here's the graph. But then if as long as you're using and like showing and here's 1 project that is. It's showing how to do that, how to address carbon in this really aggressive way. Then, then they're like, Oh, look at this beautiful building that's doing this amazing thing.

So then the graph is like in the background now, but the story is the solution, not the deadline. To your point, Lindsay.  Oh, I love that. I will put some slides. Like, I know exactly what you mean when you're talking about, okay, 1. 5. Here's the graph. Here's that one. So I'll put those slides in the show notes  on Instagram.

That way, people who may not be as familiar or know what we're talking about, but yes. Those are Architecture 2030 slides, and I am a field fellow with Architecture 2030, so I don't want to be considered as being on record. But I would like to say that even when Ed Mazria shows those slides or Vince, they are showing them with the solutions, right?

Like, you need to. See, look, it's happening now. And that's really been the message actually of architecture 2030 in the last few years, they've shifted to showing like, these are all the ways this is being done, both in the global North, by the way, and the global South at very different scales and with very different materials and all this stuff.

So that, that's the other cool thing about that. Yes. There's a deadline. I don't like, that's not a word I would use, but there is one, there is urgency.  And there are solutions. I think that's a much more compelling story. That's right. Yeah. And, and I do apologize for all of our like wonky sustainability references here for, for, uh, apologies to your listeners.

But I, cause I think that's kind of the point we're trying to make here is like, honestly, we, we know, we hear you. No one, no one really knows what we mean when we say 1. 5 degrees, and that's okay. You shouldn't have to know about that. Like, I will continue to do the math with my team and with Architecture 2030 and other non profits that work on this stuff, and that are in the climate movement to say, how are we doing as the building industry?

The building industry as a whole, like, a typical person does not need to, like, worry too much about some of that math. Like we can all do our different parts. Love it. We'll just check back and be like, where are we now? Okay. Well, right. Exactly. Yeah. That's the general idea. Exactly. Well, one of the things that I really enjoy about you both, aside from like the fact that, you know, it's always fun catching up with you.

Um, it's also that you have. An amazing podcast that I was very fortunate and flattered to be able to be on last year. And so I would love for you to tell a little bit about the podcast and what prompted you guys starting it. Yeah, maybe I guess I can start. Yeah. Uh, so I was very fortunately laid off at the end of 2019 from my job at WeWork.

And no, I am not in any of the documentaries, but, uh, that was the thing. And, uh, so I had, I guess I was starting to get interested in like podcasts and things like that at the time. And then this wonderful woman, Amber Archip, reached out to me from, she was at Lucid. At the time, they, they, they're like a software company that works on energy dashboards for buildings and said, would you be interested in hosting this podcast that we want to do about women and sustainability? 

And I was just like, okay, well, I was thinking about doing something and now someone's telling me that,  you know. So I, it was kind of, it was sort of kismet, I guess, in that way. And, and I immediately reached out to Kira and asked her if she would co host, which I think people imagine now, I've gotten this a few times, people just assume that Kira and I were like already besties before we were not. 

We definitely knew each other and liked each other.  But I guess it's partially what you were talking about, Nikita, is like, I, I know that Kira is a storyteller and a great communicator and someone who, because of her book, Women in Green, that she published, oh, now how more than a decade ago, that would be like, you know, 16 years ago, 16 years ago with Lance Hosey, that she, she was already in this business of celebrating women in our industry.

And so it just seemed perfect to kind of see if she would be interested in doing this with me. And so. We've been doing it ever since, and I think, I mean, at this point, honestly, it's morphed. I think it started off as, you know, a little bit more of like a, like a, uh, an empowerment thing to make sure that people were hearing these stories of incredible women doing interesting things in the movement.

But I think it's since become... A space for us to talk about how the movement is doing and making sure that we're kind of reflecting on it with people and getting feedback about what we can be doing better and just kind of being in dialogue with, with folks, which has been really. Exciting. I don't know, Kira, what would you say about it?

Absolutely. I have loved that evolution of it. And of course the first, so we recorded like one or maybe two episodes before the pandemic started. So people also think that we founded it during the pandemic because we were bored,  which isn't completely true, but it did really serve as this wonderful. Sort of community thing and feeling thing and during the pandemic.

And so, and of course, I haven't actually gone back and listened to all this emphasis, and I'm sure they're extremely moment in time, you know, because we were all having all those experiences, but I, I love how it's evolved to sort of checking in on perspectives about how the movement is going, where are the successes, where are the big gaps, those kinds of conversations.

I, I absolutely love doing it. I mean, I've. Selfishly, it's a great way to get to know people that whose work I followed, like yours, Nikita. If I see you in the movement, like I, we're like parallel, you know, moving along. I see you out there, but I don't really know you yet. And so we got to know you a little.

It was really awesome. So it has that fantastic benefit, but it is, it has been so.  And I love hearing from people that listen to it and what they get out of it, because it's always, it's very different for, and I, I do. It really helps me to hear how people respond to it. People that are newer to the movement, especially because we, a lot, Lindsay and I talk often about making sure it doesn't seem too insider ish, because there are certain.

You know, number of people like yourself included who are operating, you've been in a while. There's a tribe, you know, each other, you see the people at the things and you don't want it. You know, I also think it's a very welcoming movement. I happen to think that. So I want to make sure that we continue to have that tone on the calls, even when these are people that we've actually been.

It's been so fun.  Yeah. And I'm so grateful to both of you for doing it and putting it out because it's been a great way for me as well to learn more about the people. And I'm like, Oh, that, Oh, fascinating. So it's one of the things I'm enjoying about the podcast, like you're, like you said, it's like being able to learn more about people.

So it's like, Oh, I kind of knew them, but now I'm like, Oh, they're on the, Oh, they're on the podcast. It's fascinating.  I now know more.  I mean, yeah. And the same for you, Nikita, I feel like that, I think that is kind of one of these, it's maybe a meta point about the work that we're doing with podcasting, but it, but it's like, by the way that you curate conversations that, uh, with your guests and things, I think like it allows us to kind of find the intersections and bring in more perspectives into the work that we're doing or into the movement more broadly, like, because we kind of find, find the, that you can navigate your way through.

Thank you. Expanding your own work and your own network through just like literally listening to the podcast, which yeah, I find, I find enormously wonderful because yeah, otherwise how would I take the time to just get to know you and your work or the people that you think are interesting? Like it's, it's, it's an aspiration, but like I need, I need a.

I need a manifestation of that and this has been the coolest opportunity to do that. Yeah. I concur. It's been awesome. Well, amazing. Well, I cannot believe it's time is flying by. All right. Cool. So as we are wrapping up, we have a number of students who are listening, so do you have any advice for any students or even people who are newer to the movement that you would like to share?

I guess I'll start with Lindsay or Kira. Let's start with Kira.  Okay. I have a couple of thoughts. One thought is do not be afraid to reach out to people and ask them questions this as I was just mentioning before this is a I think very open and friendly movement, and not everyone has time all the time.

So don't be bummed if they don't get back to you, but often people will be happy to.  Answer a question or refer you to someone or something like that. So I just,  I would just encourage people to, you know, reach out, I guess, is what that's in a general way. So to, you know, you could do it through LinkedIn.

You can, I mean, I, I'm in my fifties, so I love LinkedIn, but not everybody, everybody does, but I just think there are so, there are so many people in this movement who were helped along the way by other people like that. And I certainly was. By many, many people. And I think about that all the time. And so I always answer those kinds of things.

So reach out. The other one is don't get hung up on. A path being linear. I think this is really hard. It's hard to plan a non linear path. Of course, that's sort of the point, but it's, what's, what's important is not to get, don't think of it as like you're jumping around. If you get curious about something and it takes you in a direction, that is probably okay, because the great thing about this The industry and the movement is, is it, it all benefits from that kind of cross pollination.

So your career path can tolerate some tangents, I guess is what I would say. Yeah. I dig that.  Totally dig that.  Lindsay, what about you?  Yeah. So I guess just to build off of what Kira is saying a little bit, I think maybe like if you're just starting off in your career.  Now would be a good time to write down all the things that interest you and sort of think about the threads and the sort of different facets of the work that you think you might want to work on over the course of your career.

Because I think one of the things that is wonderful, but also maybe hard sometimes is that you might find a job or an educational pathway or whatever that satisfies some of your interests, but not all of them. And that can just, I think like, it's good to just know. That's normal. It's really hard to find a job that does all the things, especially when you're someone that wants to sort of be rooted in a profession like architecture.

So like in other words, like a, a skillset and expertise area, and also be rooted in a movement to change the world in some way, whether it's focusing on.  Economic justice issues are focused on climate change or all of these things together. I think I, I talked to a lot of young people who are frustrated that they can't do both at the same time all the time.

And it is really hard to be anchored in both of those equally and like find it all satisfying and so. The good news is there are really wonderful pockets of this industry and community where you get to do both, but you know, some days it will feel like you, you haven't done  anything in one realm and some, and you may have years where you don't really get to do anything in one realm professionally anyway, but maybe you can volunteer and do something on the side.

So like, just, just kind of  maybe like taking a time when you start in your career to sit, to sit down and sort of. Recognize all of those things, but then just don't, don't beat yourself up or don't Yeah. Feel too discouraged that you can't do all of it at once. And it's, it's okay. And I think it is really, actually important to make sure that you're focused on learning a, a set of, of skills or expertise areas, whatever that is.

Even if it's in movement building even, it's, it's in really deeply understanding the impact areas or. The science behind whatever health impact stuff. Those are all expertise areas that are going to come in handy later on in your career. So just build those up and, you know, don't worry about whether it all feels like everything you want all at once, you know.

Yeah, I love that.  So smart. And like, it also helps to kind of relieve some of the pressure that I, I'm sure many young people, even sometimes I feel where it's like, Oh, I need to do everything. It's like, no, I don't.  Yeah. Well, and I think, I think we, like, I think we also just, I think I'm starting to recognize this, like we, the three of us that are here.

Have worked a long time to be able to get to the place where we can kind of work on intersectional issues and also like make a living and sort of do these things that we care about. And I think it's good for listeners to know, like that, that, that takes some effort and some planning and some intention.

I'm not here to say that it is impossible for anyone. I think it is totally possible for anyone to do this and like, we're here to support you, but also, yeah.  It takes a minute. It does. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's definitely not all the specialties all at once. Kind of kind of chat. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. Well, amazing. I hear from a lot of people who are fairly recently out of school and finding the professional world.  Disappointing on the sustainability front because they were, you know, exploring things in school and having all these aspirations and they came out and then the reality of many practices in many regions  looks different and so they're frustrated by that and I on occasion have counseled.

People, I mean, of course, people should feel free to move around as much as they want. But on the other hand, too, you made a point, Lindsay, about you can find other outlets and learn other things while you're in certain kinds of jobs. And if it's depending on the region, there may not be lots and lots of firms that are doing leading edge living building certified level work.

It just is not, you know, that's not. Across the industry yet in that way. So you might have to get to feed that part of your interest for some period of time by doing, you know, volunteer engagement. There's a committee on the environment. Of course, I've been involved with them for a long time, but also ILFI and GBC, all the, and carbon leadership forum.

There are many, many groups to plug into and Nikita. Forgetting the name of the group that the NCC what is the NCC  zero zero net carbon collaboration. All these will be in the show notes.  Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's so important. I mean, I guess maybe the last like, sorry, I know we've gone on about this, but there's this, I think this other aspect of it, that's important to recognize, which is that buildings are complicated and the work that we do, it's, it's really important to get it right.

Like we are providing a very basic and very important. Aspect of people's lives, and we have to take responsibility for that. And so it can't all just be sort of philosophical. Let's talk about climate change and like, you know, it's not all passion. That's right. Makes us capable of doing our work. It is real skill and responsibility and sort of technical rigor.

And I love that, but I think it means that it takes some time for you to get really good at doing this and, and, and, you know.  The long game, I think is very satisfying. It is. So Fiona Cousins, Fiona Cousins from Arup was on our podcast recently and brought up that specific issue which is just,  if you, if you do focus carefully on making sure that you have the technical rigor and all of those components. 

You know, then your platform for the rest of it is so much stronger, right? That's the issue that you're in the longer arc, you will be so much stronger if you really do let those things mature in the, in the way that they need to, I think is the sort of, is the point there. She was speaking as an engineer, but I think it applies to all of the disciplines in the industry.

Yeah. Oh, I love that.  Thank you so much for listening. Links to amazing resources can be found in the episode's show notes. Special thanks to Sarah Gilbert for allowing me to use snippets of her song Fireflies from her debut album, Other People's Secrets. Which, by the way, is available wherever music is sold. 

If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to the show.  And now that Tangible Remnants is part of the Gabl Media Network, you can listen and subscribe to all network partner content at gablemedia. com. That's G A B L media dot com.  Until next time, remember that historic preservation is a present conversation with our past about our future.

We don't inherit the earth from our parents, but we borrow it from our children. So let's make sure we're telling our inclusive history.  I saw the first fireflies of summer, and  right then  I thought of you.  Oh, I could see us catching them and setting them free. Honey, that's what you do. That's what you do to me.