Practical Applications for Solving the Existential Crisis of Humanity Through the Evolution of Consciousness

0:01 Welcome to the selfgrowth.com show. My name is David Ricklin and I'm the founder of selfgrowth.com. Today we'll be discussing an interesting topic, practical applications for solving the existential crisis of humanity through the evolution of consciousness. It's an interesting topic we'll be getting into in quite a bit. To help us understand this topic, I'm excited to interview Santosh Kinski, who's with me today. Make sure to listen closely. We're going to be sharing a lot of information today. Before we get started, I just want to share some information about his background and then we're going to jump in over here. So Santosh has been studying 3 Arabindos writing since 1971, has a daily blog and a podcast, is the author of 16 books, and he's the editor in chief at Lotus Press.

0:51 He's the president of the Institute for Holistic Education, which is a nonprofit focus on integrating spirituality into daily life. He spent more than 48 years building and developing infrastructure, publishing, distributing and educating about the spiritual path of Sri Aravindo, as well as developing and guiding companies at the forefront of publishing books and distributing books and products to support the natural market as well as the metaphysical market in North America. Santosh, welcome to today's show. Well, thank you. I appreciate you inviting me. All right, let's jump right in. So I mentioned a few things. I mentioned existential crisis of humanity.

1:33 Can you briefly describe, and I think a lot of people are feeling it already, that describe the existential crisis of humanity that you introduced in an earlier interview we did through selfgrowth.com? Sure. Basically, I mean, what people are feeling today is this whole COVID pandemic thing combined with all the Hurricanes and earthquakes and volcanoes and all of that stuff that's actually symptoms, but not the actual cause of what's taking place here. Humanity has, through its own actions, changed the climate model of the world, and that's having impacts that go far beyond any of these day-to-day events that we feel so intensely.

2:28 We react to the day-to-day events, but we fail to respond to the longer term, slower, less visible changes that take place. And it's like that story of, you know, how to boil a frog. You know, you put a frog in cold water and slowly increase the temperature, and it won't react to that. Well, that's what we're doing to ourselves. We're boiling ourselves like that proverbial frog, and we're not paying attention to it. We're not turning down the heat. We're looking at breaking down the Gulf Stream in the ocean, and if we do, that climate will go totally haywire all over the world because there are these ocean currents that regulate the climate and everything else on this planet.

3:22 In addition to that, we're polluting the world, we're poisoning the world. We have what scientists are calling the 6th planetary species die off. The fifth one for everyone's, you know, information was when the meteor hit the planet and killed off all the dinosaurs and a lot of other beings. But we're going through a larger extinction process today at a magnitude that is global. People have heard how we're decimating the pollinators, the bees, and it's going to impact the ability to even produce food. So we've got all these different factors that combined with climate, combined with the pollution, combined with overfishing and destroying the the ocean habitat. I mean, we're basically destroying the coral reefs, which are the incubators for the food chain of the entire ocean. Well, what will happen on this planet where so many people rely on fish for their food, when we destroy the fisheries, you're going to have billions of people who don't have a good food source because they've relied on that. Well, they're not going to sit there and take it. You're looking at wars, you're looking at mass migrations, you're looking at disease

4:54 vectors happening. And so this is what I talk about as an existential crisis. It goes far beyond this, but that's a a brief intro to it. What's amazing, I love the frog analogy because we're in a situation where we're aware of it, Many people are aware of it. We're aware we're in the pot, we're aware we're the frog and and there's really two options for the frog to survive and we'll get into it. One is turn the heat down. The others at least jump out of the pot. So it's, it's interesting and I want to get into kind of what humanity can do and what you're and different groups are actually working on on this and understand it's not like everybody's completely ignoring it. So that's a good thing.

5:39 So what I want to jump into is what's the difference between this? We talked a little bit about a current state of consciousness of humanity. So where we are right now and then that kind of the next phase of evolutionary cycle. So we want to figure out all right, there's these issues and clearly major issues. It's it's, it's obvious to anybody watching the news for more than 10 minutes. Then right now there's world level issues that are going on this existential crisis. So let's take a look at kind of the start current state of consciousness of humanity and why is that important? And then what's the next phase of our evolutionary cycle? Let's jump in there. Well, sure.

6:20 Humanity has basically built its civilization and its action on the planet based on what we might call the consciousness of the mind and the mental consciousness tends to be blink blinkered that it it is limited within its viewpoint. It sees One Direction. It sees things as black and white, either or and it doesn't take into account the global impacts, the holistic impacts of what we do. And so we say we're going to cure this disease by doing a certain thing. We don't understand that we've upset the biochemistry of the whole body and we're creating a worse crisis down line. This is the nature of the mind and this is what we've built our entire life and civilization on.

7:15 And so it it then goes to how do we understand the world, how do we understand our relationship to the world, and what level and type of consciousness needs to come in to give us a different viewpoint. A really good example is one that up until just a few 100 years ago, humanity as a whole felt like the Earth is at the center of the universe. And the sun rose in the east and set in the West, and it obviously circled around us. And so we were the center of everything. And then scientists eventually discovered, and we've mostly now accepted, maybe there's a few flat earthers who don't, but we've most mostly now accepted the idea that the Earth rotates around the sun and it's on its own rotation. So that that's what creates the illusion of being at the center of the universe.

8:20 The mind thinks it's at the center of the universe. And we make all of our decisions based upon we're at the center we control. And what we say goes, well, it doesn't work like that. And so the next level of consciousness needs to shift out of the limited framework of the mind and move towards a new vision that can see the interaction, the interconnectedness and the oneness within which we live. That these other forces of the universe, the galaxies, the solar system, the sun itself, actually control and develop what's going on.

9:04 And if we can shift our viewpoint to something that's comprehensive and whole, we will make better decisions. And just like the mind has changed all life on Earth to the point that we've created the unintended consequence of this existential crisis, a holistic view, a global view of things can help us heal that and move us beyond the mental limitations. There's a few things I want to mention relative to things you said. So one of the things that comes to mind is the fact that we've been historically very individual centric.

9:44 We're focused on are the world we see and not only two things that you mentioned that really struck me. One is we're focused on what we see right immediately around us, not the bigger impact. And also in terms of timing, we're looking at stuff that's impacting us today. So as a general rule and, and what's in what I find interesting is that has served us in terms of growth and technology and we're feeding a larger percentage of people and it's helped in many ways, but it, it's gotten to the point, the way I see it, it's gotten to the point where it's starting to cause a lot of damage that this kind of focus. I, I love this concept of almost a, a new consciousness that we need to develop that will enable us to see outside our, our kind of small circle that we're in. But one of the questions that I have for you, so as we're developing this new consciousness, this new development of consciousness and new awareness of seeing the world more as a completely interconnected, it's almost an interconnected Organism, that's it's not just us, we're connected to the whole planet.

10:50 How does this new development consciousness help solve this crisis that we're talking about? So how do we go about doing? What are the kind of some practical steps associated with this? Well, I think the the first thing is when we begin to realize that what we individually want, what we as a society want from our normal limited mental viewpoint can be counterproductive. And, and I'll give you an example, OK, We think that we can cut down all the trees on the planet for our own purpose, to expand agriculture, to use wood, whatever it is we want to do, to create toilet paper, whatever we want to do with it, we want to cut down trees. Well, the reality is that without trees, we don't exist. People don't realize that the trees create the oxygen and breathe out the oxygen that we need to live, and similarly we breathe out the carbon dioxide that they need to live. So we're either symbiotic, 2 separate organisms that are connected to each other integrally, or we're one being in two different organs, you could say. And either way, if we shift to that viewpoint, we take a whole different view of how we react

12:23 and deal with nature, how we react and deal with each other, how we react and deal with the resources of the planet. We suddenly take the view that we can't keep spewing poison into the atmosphere and into the ground and kill off food chain species of of an enormous magnitude and still exist. And so that change of consciousness changes the very essence of who we think we are and how we relate to the world around us. And and that's the basis upon which we then can begin to develop balanced, harmonious and forward-looking ways of living on the planet sustainably.

13:15 I want to delve a little bit deeper into some ways to can practically apply this, this kind of new consciousness. So and, and we'll get into a few things. I want to get into a few things with you. One is there, there are clearly people that I know that I'm aware of and, and I'm part of this group broadly that understands this global connection. So there's a this, there are people, not everybody and clearly not everybody. So relative to this kind of consciousness and awareness, I think we're getting where more and more people are gaining this level of consciousness. So what I want to spend some time talking to you about is a few things. One, what are some of the practical examples of how this new consciousness as it's growing can help solve this crisis we're talking about, which really an existential crisis because we're, we're destroying our habitat. We're, we're just, we're destroying ourselves slowly. Well, and then we need to really do something about it. So let's take a look at some practical applications. Sure.

14:18 And, and you know, you're absolutely right, there are many, many thousands of people, 10s or even hundreds of thousands of people who are in their own way, understanding and acting and working on ways to solve these issues. Both in low tech ways and in high tech ways around the world. I absolutely am very encouraged by that. Although in in relation to 8 billion people who aren't doing that, it's, you know, it's hard to make the kind of impact with the speed that's needed. One of the issues that comes up is that particularly here in the West, we're very enamored of high tech. And so we think that we can solve everything with high tech. And we've done things like drop water and power generating projects into Africa at the cost of many billions of dollars only to find out that a few years later they're basically defunct and falling apart because the people there, we're not in a position, nor was the infrastructure in those areas ready to sustain that kind of high tech approach. And so while it's great that people are working on high tech solutions that may help at least

15:50 the West do a better job of being more sustainable, the bulk of people on the planet and the resources that we rely on come from the developing world. And so someone needs to be working on solutions that actually can work in the developing world that are sustainable, that are reproducible and that are scalable so that people in Africa and Asia and South America and the Middle East in places where they don't have these high tech capacities can begin to meet their own aspirations of living a lifestyle. I mean, let let's look at it this way. We live a lifestyle that is unsustainable here in America or in Europe.

16:46 We act as if there's three or four planet Earths when there's one. And if everybody on the planet had the same aspiration and said we're all equal, why can't we all have that level of existence? Well, you now wind up with either you're going to have a permanent aristocratic controlling class dominating and destroying the people who don't have that in order to maintain that aggressive lifestyle that we have, or you need to find new ways to allow people who don't have food, water, shelter, healthcare, et cetera, at the level we have it.

17:33 We need to find ways for them to have their basic needs met, or we're gonna have global chaos. We're already starting to have global chaos. The mass migrations, the wars, everything comes from these disputes coming up where people want to have the lifestyle, but they're not getting access to the resources, nor are those resources there for everybody on the planet. So we need to make some adjustments here, but the rest of the world has to have the ability to increase its access to these resources in a sustainable way. And the type of projects that I look at are the ones that are being developed in the developing world using resources widely available there that are sustainable and scalable and reproducible, and thereby can begin to address the the larger issues.

18:41 And at the same time, perhaps provide some examples for the West to shift away from its high tech is the only solution mindset and begin to adopt some of these methods for themselves to accomplish things that are done high tech but are counterproductive. An example of that is when it gets hot and it's getting hot and hotter. We all rely on air conditioning. But there are projects, for instance, in the the community of Oroville in South India, which is a pretty hot place, they don't rely on air conditioning. They rely on architectural design and materials in their building that help keep a temperate climate within the buildings without the use of the air conditioning. If we adopted that here in the West, enormous amounts of energy would be saved.

19:52 People would still be comfortable, and we wouldn't be putting the chlorofluorocarbons up into the ozone layer. So, I mean, there's a lot of win, win options here if some of these projects succeed. Let's spend some time talking about Oroville. So you mentioned Oroville and I want to tie it back to what you were saying. So there's clearly people are identifying some practical applications of things that we can do even globally in terms of making an impact. And we clearly need to start implementing these. One of the things that really struck me that you're talking about is the fact that, you know, imagine of the seven, 8 billion people on the planet all try to live at the same lifestyle and carbon footprint that Americans live. You know, it, it would, it would bring about a, a global devastation very, very quickly.

20:46 We, we can't sustain the, the lifestyle that we're living in America can't be sustained for 8 billion people on this planet right now. It's just, it's, it's not possible. So Oroville, I am going to ask you to spend some time talking a little bit more about it is what's considered an intentional community and it's designed to really help kind of bring about and identify different projects and things that are are working and then have applications. So can you that can help kind of solve this existential crisis? Can you tell us a little bit more about Oroville kind of take some background in it and what the kind of global purpose and and some of the projects? And, and one of the things I want to point out, I want folks to really pay attention to this because the town of Oroville, this community is doing some substantial things that can be taken, that the concepts and ideas that they're doing can be spread globally and have a big impact. And they're, they're almost testing, the way I see it, you can correct me if you feel differently. They're kind of testing out different methodologies and systems that could be used on a more widespread basis to have a, a global impact.

21:53 So with that said, can you take us through Oroville, the community? What's it about and what and what are they trying to do? Great. Well, first, let me preface by saying they're not the only people or community around the world working on different forms of solution. But the uniqueness that I found in looking at the Oroville project is that it's pretty ambitious. I mean, they want to have a city of 50,000 eventually. They've got about 3200 or 3300 residents there right now so that they can show the viability of a sustainable urban environment, which is how the world lives to a great degree. And that's where the crux of the problem is. Urbanization has accentuated a lot of the problems we're talking about, and so they need to find a sustainable urban solution.

22:57 Oroville was founded in 1968 and basically the idea was to create a place that would belong to humanity as a whole, would not be owned by anyone, group or country. Although it's located in India and subject to the laws of India, but it's got its own little carved out position there. You could say they've got people from over 70 countries living there and with different languages, different cultures, different backgrounds, different education, different expectations and different aspirations. And so it's it's sort of a mini experiment for human unity. And of course, you know, you wind up with all the normal human egoistic reactions and then you wind up with how they go about trying to work past that. And through that, because we need to learn how to live together despite and sort of even in favor of our differences.

24:05 So we don't make everybody uniform, but we learn how to live peacefully together and find solutions together. And then what also has happened is they're bringing together people who have each their own unique skill set, interests and ideas about creating projects to try to solve some of the major issues that we as humanity face on a sustainable level. And they've got something like somewhere over 55 projects going right now. It's amazing the diversity of focus that these different subgroups of residents there have taken up everything from reclamation of badly eroded land to reforestation, to creating sustainable buildings and architecture, which I mentioned earlier.

25:08 The idea of tackling food, clean water, creating protein sources that are sustainable and not reliant on the world's fisheries, I mean it, it's, it's amazing all the things they're doing and all of the various directions that they're taking. And, and that's what I found interesting. I don't know of any other place where this type of intensive, multi dimensional, multi directional focus is taking place. And all of it starting from what is sustainable within the environment and not relying on some kind of magical high tech solution.

25:59 So they may use wind energy, but they're creating wind turbines and generation, for instance, that can be done anywhere in the world. They're they're reproducible. There's a few things I want to mention that came to mind as you were talking. One is it sounds incorrect if I'm wrong that the people of Oroville are looking to develop kind of SIM in some cases, what I describe as more practical solutions that everybody can implement. So I, I think about what other folks and I've listened to, for example, Bill Gates talk about how there's some high tech solutions and, and kind of his vision and he's on board with the concept that we absolutely need to, to do something that we're using up resources. He's on board with it, but he's coming from a high tech approach.

26:53 And what's interesting about Oroville is people are coming from a practical community, almost a lifestyle approach of, of what kind of lifestyle is sustainable first on a small scale and then on much larger scale for for humanity. So they're almost testing out what can be used. And I like the concept that you said they're they're looking to test it out in an urban level as they're growing the size of Oroville. And the reason being most people right now, we've moved into cities, we're very, very much urban life focused. So I want you to delve a little bit more deeply. You started talking about it is that, yeah, how the projects of Oroville differ. So we're kind of contrasting them to these high tech and in many cases high cost approaches. What what's kind of the main difference? How do you differentiate what they're doing with these people that are looking to solve it literally with technology? Well, that that's a a really good question actually. What, what I look at there is that when you look at high tech, OK, you're looking at needing rare earth resources, OK, these minerals that are very, very scarce basically, and are being controlled by, in some cases, specific countries for their own political and economic domination games. So there's a, a limit to that.

28:19 But then they create poisons that that pollute the planet. I mean, you can't dispose of batteries or cell phones or things in a normal waste dump because they tell you they're toxic. They're going to, they're going to pollute things. They need special handling. And we're building up this trash and nobody thinks about it. OK, what are we going to do when we're buried under mountains of toxic trash? We're already getting there. How many people have a dozen pieces of technology in their own homes that they don't know how to get rid of and can't get rid of? And if they get rid of it, what happens to it? It used to be that some of that got recycled, but that got overwhelmed and they've had barges with filled with toxic technology running around the oceans with nowhere to land. It can't go on.

29:14 That approach has reached its limits. That's the mental approach of we can solve it with what we've done in the past with high tech and industrialization on the other side. I'll give you the example that that I think is is most salient in Oroville. And that's their reforestation program. When they got to the place where the community started in 1968, it was bare, eroded, badly destroyed landscape. I mean, it looked like a moonscape, OK. And actually I was there in the 1970s and 1973 and I almost got heat stroke. Actually, I did get heat stroke walking around out there. There were no trees.

30:03 There was a beating sun. It was in the mid 90s. And I mean, it was terrible, terrible environment. So they started doing things like controlling the monsoon rain run offs and changing the way water flowed. And then they said, OK, let's look at reforestation. Now in the West, reforestation means that you go in there and you dump, you know, you get maybe in an airplane and dump a million seedlings of trees into an area and you're lucky if you get 15 or 20% of them to take. And that's considered the successful reforestation. They followed a different approach. First of all, they looked at what the natural flora and fauna of that area of South India that climate was. They went to parks and other areas where those species were growing and saw how they grew and how they interrelated. And they planted trees and bushes and plants that would actually fit that environment.

31:17 And then they started bringing in sort of companion plants that also came from that environment. So they would create a complete eco structure, if you will, in that local area. Over time, that all took root and became a full forest, if you will. I mean, if you look at Oroville today from above, it's green. I mean, you don't see the denuded landscape that you saw 50 years ago. It's incredible. And they saw that the native insects, the native animal species all migrated there.

32:02 Well, how did they do that? They not only used intelligence to bring in the right mix of appropriate plants and trees, they also cared for them. They planted them individually. They learned how to because water was scarce, how to use a drop irrigation that they provided directly to the roots of these seedlings and nurtured them for years. Now wood is a very valuable resource and they're living amidst local communities, villages. And so they had to bring in the local villagers and explain to them why it was they wanted to do this and make sure that they appreciated, cooperated and supported it and got benefit from it. And so they actually created a, a symbiotic relationship with the local villages that are interspersed throughout Oroville.

33:06 And everyone was supporting the reforestation program. And there weren't people coming in and saying, Oh my God, I want to survive. And they cut down the, the saplings, you know, so, so a lot of that took place. What they then did, one of the projects actually went out and reproduced itself in the country of Kenya. There's a project there and they brought in local people from that area and educated them on their insight, understanding and methodology. They went back and did similar research and have a successful reforestation there.

33:50 They then went to Haiti and Haiti is a great example because there were both high tech solutions of reforestation after the big hurricanes destroyed everything. And there was this small project and while the 15 or 20% was considered successful in the high tech approach, they had something like 80% survival rate of their trees with that approach. It was unprecedented as to the type of results they get using this method versus the normal Western approach to this. They've also been reproducing it in certain parts of India. So they're now sort of exporting the insight, the understanding of this new sort of oneness consciousness we were talking about in the way they develop the reforestation programs. Now this is 1 little example because you know, the world is destroying forests faster than it's replanting them and it's destroying the oceans where we get more oxygen than we get from trees.

35:12 We all think it's the trees and the plants on the ground that create the most oxygen, but over 50% comes out of the oceans and we're destroying the ocean food chain. So what they're now working on in other projects is OK, how do we develop like an algae based, reproducible, sustainable food source? How do we create options so that people don't have to destroy the oceans in order to survive? And hopefully you know some of these solutions begin to get some traction real soon. I love a lot of the concepts and one of the things I want to explore with you just a little bit. We've been focusing and talking about Oroville. So for folks who want to check it out, it's a URO Ville Ville Oroville and Santosh.

36:12 Can you step us through a little bit of information? How can people find out more about Oroville? What's the best place to go? And one of the things I want to point out in terms of what you're saying is this, this community is doing a lot of things to really set up potential avenues, not only for them, but for the whole world to implement new systems out that will help the whole community, not only their local community, but a broader their country, the world that and really provide, and I love the concept something sustainable and reproducible. The, the real goal is to create something that's sustainable and reproducible to help humanity. Oroville seems like that's their clear mission.

36:53 So tell us a little bit, where can they find out more information about Oroville? And for folks who like this mission, how can they support this mission and what could they do locally? So let's let's spend a couple minutes talking about that. Sure. Well, first of all, I would say they can find out more immediately from a a website calledaviusa.com or sorry.org. And there's a back slash flourish, FLOURISH that outlines some of these 55 or more projects that we're talking about. There's videos there, there's interviews there. I mean, there's a lot of information so people can see what's going on and they can find out more generally about Oroville by going to a VIU sa.org/orovilleso. I mean, that's, that certainly is one place where they can go get more informed about what's going on and what the projects are and how they're developing and where they're trying to go and, and even ways they can support it. I mean, people think that they're helpless or distant somehow.

38:10 But, and, and in some cases they say, well, I don't have a lot of money. I can't just donate a lot of money. Well, if you've got money and you can put it in, that's great. It can be always used. But the reality is that there's a lot of things that can be done. They want to have, for instance, an Oroville TV station that is able to put this information out for the whole world using social media, whatever, to get the word out. Well, if you've got skill sets in that area, contribute them. If you've got your own ideas and projects about how to build sustainable, scalable and reproducible things, and you can't do it with Oroville, well, do it wherever you are. I mean, all of us have both an opportunity and a responsibility as citizens of the planet to do what we can wherever we are. And you know, I mean, if you can live more sustainably where you are, even here in the West, well, try to do it. We just moved into a new house and we're looking at, well, how do we go solar 'cause they, it wasn't a solar house. Well, every little bit helps in that regard. And solar energy, wind energy, ocean wave therapy, you know, whatever you can do, these are

39:44 areas where energy can be generated and and then contribute ideas even to the high tech solutions. If that's where you are. You know, there are places that are putting sort of generating ribbons into roads so that electric cars can recharge themselves while they're driving. I mean. We need to get away from the internal combustion model, obviously, and all the hydrocarbons that we develop and the gas stations and all that stuff. It's going to change our lives, but we need to also do it intelligently. If we just use electricity and use coal and natural gas to generate it, we're still hydrocarbon reliant. So, you know, finding ways to generate energy from friction across the road or through solar collectors or through wind energy, whatever it might be, if that's where you are in your life and you can't go to Oroville and and do it at that level, do it some other way.

40:59 I like the concept. I'm going to give out the website one more time. It's Avi for I guess, Oroville International. AVIU sa.org. So make sure you jot that down. Check out what they're doing. It's a very powerful group. They're making an impact. And AVIU sa.org/flourish to get some of the details in the program. And one of the things I just want to spend a couple minutes at before we wrap up is you mentioned earlier and I mentioned in my intro that you've been following the work of Sri Arbindo, who was inspired also the the founding of this project. How could folks find out more information about Sri Aurobindo and, and what's the what's the overall tie in?

41:43 Sure. Well, Sri Aurobindo basically understood that the world is going through an evolutionary development of consciousness. And Darwin, you know, only saw the physical development, but didn't understand basically the the connecting thread that it was this evolution of consciousness that led to the evolution of species. And after the physical material consciousness, the next level was the vital consciousness that came through in the plants and then animals enhanced upon that and began to manifest the mental consciousness. Humanity has those earlier levels plus the mental capacities, and Trioro Bindo said evolution is not finished. And so the next level he called supra mental, which means beyond the mind.

42:41 And he worked on finding ways through what he calls the integral yoga to begin to develop the receptivity in humanity to this next level of evolutionary development of consciousness that led to the development of Oroville and the kinds of things we've spoken about here. And basically, I guess the easiest place to go and, and get connected to information would be to go to orobindo.net, a UROBIND o.net. And there are links there. I do a daily blog that I post out there and, and there's a link to that blog and I do a daily podcast and in fact I try to post daily to selfgrowth.com so that people visiting selfgrowth.com can can find a lot of this material as well all. Right, sounds good.

43:44 Well, I want to thank you very much for sharing all this information today. We really need to pull together and there are people that are making a big impact. Check out Oroville and exactly all the things they're doing. Santosh, thank you for your time. Any final words before you finish up? Well, I think we've really covered a lot of ground here, David, and I very much appreciate your efforts and and the support and efforts of all those people who are connected with us through what you're doing. And I want to thank everybody for, you know, spending some time with us today. All right.

44:24 Thanks again, Santosh. Thanks for joining us. I want to thank everybody for listening. And I think we need to really pull together to to make changes, to make real change in the world. Thanks again. We'll see everybody soon. OK, thank you. Bye. Bye now. Bye bye.