From Mob Lawyer to Meditation - Bob Martin’s Wild Journey S2-EP24

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,960
Years later, his son got arrested.

2
00:00:06,020 --> 00:00:09,040
And at that point, it was, no, you will do this.

3
00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:11,540
I said, that's suborning perjury.

4
00:00:12,220 --> 00:00:13,840
No, that's creating evidence.

5
00:00:14,260 --> 00:00:17,020
He goes, I really think that you should do this.

6
00:00:17,060 --> 00:00:18,580
And I said, I really think I can't.

7
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,280
And he goes, I really think that you should reconsider that.

8
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:48,800
all right everybody welcome back to another episode of the space tomatoes podcast i'm one

9
00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:56,040
of your hosts havoc the other guy lx hello that other guy today we have with us a special guest

10
00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:05,180
Bob Martin, Juris Doctorate, Master of Social Work, CMT Cultural Commentator, Recovering

11
00:01:05,180 --> 00:01:11,480
Lawyer, and Creator of The Flow, where politics, society, and the human condition get the honest

12
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,120
conversation they deserve.

13
00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:14,660
Welcome to the show, Bob.

14
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,020
Oh, thank you.

15
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,900
Thank you so much for having me, guys.

16
00:01:18,260 --> 00:01:23,140
And before we even start, I want to do a shout out and thank you guys for the work you do

17
00:01:23,140 --> 00:01:30,180
in putting together a platform like this that lets guys like me come and, you know, have our say.

18
00:01:30,420 --> 00:01:34,280
So it's wonderful to be here. Thank you so much.

19
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,120
Awesome. Yeah, absolutely.

20
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,200
We, yeah, really enjoy having guests.

21
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:46,620
You know, it's interesting to hear different perspectives and different life experiences.

22
00:01:46,620 --> 00:01:52,840
and some have had profound changes in life as well as career,

23
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,380
and you happen to be one of those, which is pretty exciting.

24
00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:58,1000
So, yeah, let's jump in.

25
00:01:58,1000 --> 00:02:00,760
We haven't had any guests we haven't liked yet.

26
00:02:01,060 --> 00:02:04,320
Of course, we haven't had any lawyers yet, so there was a chance.

27
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,080
You know, I understand because whenever people ask me what I do,

28
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,020
I say, well, I'm a lawyer, but please don't hold it against me.

29
00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:16,720
Well, you know who does love lawyers?

30
00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:18,140
Surgeons.

31
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,100
Because they're easy to work on.

32
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:22,280
You ever heard of this one?

33
00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:24,360
No, I have to tell you something.

34
00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:27,160
One time I was having some heart issues,

35
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:32,460
and so I went for a sonogram or whatever they call that thing.

36
00:02:32,980 --> 00:02:35,860
So I'm looking away from the machine,

37
00:02:36,100 --> 00:02:38,840
and the guy's got the jelly in the machine,

38
00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:40,160
and he's going to...

39
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,800
And finally, he says to me, do you want to see your heart?

40
00:02:44,540 --> 00:02:46,660
And I go, yeah, yeah, I want to see my heart.

41
00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:49,600
So I turn around and look and his jaw drops open.

42
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,900
And I go, what, what, what?

43
00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:56,520
And he goes, you are the first lawyer I've ever had that wanted to see their heart.

44
00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:09,140
I was figuring he was going to show you the screen and like hold the wand up against like the bed or something.

45
00:03:09,140 --> 00:03:10,280
just blank.

46
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:11,740
See that cold,

47
00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:13,060
cold black spot in the middle?

48
00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:13,580
There it is.

49
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:17,720
Yeah.

50
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,740
So did you start out like,

51
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,400
was that you were a lawyer first,

52
00:03:23,460 --> 00:03:23,840
I believe,

53
00:03:23,940 --> 00:03:24,160
right?

54
00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:29,060
And was that something you grew up like wanting to do?

55
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:29,420
Oh no,

56
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:30,620
not at all.

57
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:31,820
Okay.

58
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:33,400
So what,

59
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,060
what drove you into the field?

60
00:03:36,060 --> 00:03:36,580
Well,

61
00:03:36,580 --> 00:03:37,240
it's a story.

62
00:03:38,180 --> 00:03:38,700
So,

63
00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:40,460
But let's start with the story.

64
00:03:41,420 --> 00:03:45,900
So I grew up, well, I guess I got to start with my dad.

65
00:03:46,060 --> 00:03:47,580
He was an immigrant.

66
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:53,940
He escaped Hungary in, born in 1898, escaped Hungary during the First World War and the

67
00:03:53,940 --> 00:03:55,060
Bolshevik Revolution.

68
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:04,540
All of his, he was royalty and all of his family was wiped out by the Bolsheviks and

69
00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:10,220
came here and he found his way to the American dream via popcorn and cotton candy.

70
00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:19,260
So, and there's another, there's a whole story behind that. But, um, so I grew up in kind of

71
00:04:19,260 --> 00:04:25,820
carnivals and amusement parks. Uh, and we had the cotton candy and popcorn stands and eventually

72
00:04:25,820 --> 00:04:34,980
hot dogs and all that kind of stuff. And my biggest dream was really to sell enough hot dogs

73
00:04:34,980 --> 00:04:40,860
on the boardwalk in Rockaway Beach, New York, to sell enough hot dogs in the summer so I would not

74
00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:48,800
have to work in the winter. That was my main ambition in life. But I got a full ride to Boston

75
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,380
University football. And so I was a football player, but I had a career-ending injury.

76
00:04:54,380 --> 00:05:01,020
and I broke up with my high school sweetheart within the same two-week period in October

77
00:05:01,020 --> 00:05:06,460
of 1969. I think it was October 17th to be, but who's counting?

78
00:05:08,940 --> 00:05:16,300
And so after, what does a jock do in 1969 when they can't play ball anymore? They become a hippie.

79
00:05:16,300 --> 00:05:22,040
And so I devolved or evolved into a hippie pad.

80
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:28,340
And one of the people who would come and go from time to time was a guy named John Berman.

81
00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:36,260
And those were the days of Watergate and Vietnam and Nixon and the like.

82
00:05:36,260 --> 00:05:46,920
And everybody, you know, who had any sense about them was either out in protests or smoking pot or whatever.

83
00:05:47,340 --> 00:05:58,120
And I would be, or both, and I would be arguing with people all the time, you know, about Nixon and the obscenity of Vietnam.

84
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,220
And John, John was kind of a Woody Allen figure.

85
00:06:03,220 --> 00:06:06,860
He was like the pig pen figure in Peanuts.

86
00:06:06,940 --> 00:06:09,320
He always walked around with the cloud over his head.

87
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,020
He had sloped shoulders.

88
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:16,560
A bag wouldn't even like stay, you know, like his bags wouldn't even stay on his shoulders.

89
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,780
And his job in our little group was to be the librarian.

90
00:06:22,900 --> 00:06:27,480
And he read the Post, the Washington Post and the New York Times rigorously every day.

91
00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:33,160
And so whenever we got into an argument, we would go, hey, John, you know, when did Nixon go into Cambodia?

92
00:06:33,220 --> 00:06:50,680
Hey, John. And John kept telling me I should be a lawyer. So, you know, I said, yeah, yeah. And my ambition was to sell hot dogs. And one day, John kind of becomes scarce, actually, for a couple of weeks.

93
00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:57,280
and then he shows up and he has an envelope and in the envelope is a postal money order

94
00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:03,040
for 350 bucks which was the entrance fee to take the law school aptitude test

95
00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:09,440
and it was a postal money order made out to the educational testing service so I could not cash it

96
00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:17,540
he goes go take the test you should be a lawyer I said where'd you get this money he says I got a

97
00:07:17,540 --> 00:07:24,360
job. I said, you are working? He says, nah, I quit. I just wanted to get this. And so,

98
00:07:24,980 --> 00:07:33,800
what do you, you can't say no to that. And I had a very mediocre college career. Like I say,

99
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:41,560
flunked out of Boston University, finished up my career at Pratt Institute in restaurant management.

100
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:48,380
and so I, okay, well, I'll go take the test

101
00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:51,420
and I did pretty good, not extraordinary

102
00:07:51,420 --> 00:07:53,540
and I applied to some law schools

103
00:07:53,540 --> 00:07:56,580
and there was one law school that is just brand new

104
00:07:56,580 --> 00:07:58,380
and it hadn't been accredited yet

105
00:07:58,380 --> 00:08:00,960
and it decided it would take a chance on me

106
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,980
and it let me in, it wasn't even accredited,

107
00:08:03,980 --> 00:08:06,880
it was accredited by the time we finished the three years,

108
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,980
Nova University for the study of law

109
00:08:09,980 --> 00:08:11,180
in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

110
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,620
They let me in.

111
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:20,620
And I guess the tag end of the story is that John was a heroin addict.

112
00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:27,380
And we pulled him out of shooting galleries in Harlem two or three times and had to sit on him while he DT'd.

113
00:08:28,580 --> 00:08:31,980
But the moment I got accepted into law school, he went straight.

114
00:08:31,980 --> 00:08:41,180
and he came down to Florida and got a job at one of the Miami Beach hotels and enrolled in Dade

115
00:08:41,180 --> 00:08:47,220
County Community College to become a paralegal and I was going to be Perry Mason this reference

116
00:08:47,220 --> 00:08:51,420
is probably too old for you but I was going to be Perry Mason and he was going to be Paul Drake

117
00:08:51,420 --> 00:09:01,080
my investigator that was the plan so I proceeded through law school in my third year I was interned

118
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,880
in the district attorney's office, which we call the state attorney's office under Janet Reno,

119
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:12,680
who was the DA for Dade County during the cocaine cowboy days. These are the crazy days of Miami

120
00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:19,520
that Scarface comes out of. And I interned in my third year there, and then they hired me

121
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:28,220
right out of law school. And the fourth day after I was sworn in, and I was officially,

122
00:09:28,220 --> 00:09:30,000
You know, I had my own office.

123
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,320
I came up from court and my secretary said, do you know a John Berman?

124
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:38,100
And I go, yeah.

125
00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:43,460
And he goes, well, the Miami Beach police called.

126
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:45,660
He passed away.

127
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,220
And I said, say what?

128
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,540
And it turned out he met some chick and they decided to get high.

129
00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:58,040
And he had forgotten that his tolerance over three years had gone way down.

130
00:09:58,220 --> 00:10:00,740
And he overdosed, laid down, and just died.

131
00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:12,400
And so I have always kind of felt that John's purpose in life was to get me to be a lawyer and that I had to honor that.

132
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,680
Wow. That's a powerful story right there.

133
00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:31,320
So you started out on the prosecution side of the house and then migrated into the defending side of the house, defendant side.

134
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,820
And what was the catalyst for that?

135
00:10:36,940 --> 00:10:40,660
What made you think, you know what, I'm not happy doing this.

136
00:10:40,820 --> 00:10:44,600
I really want to go do something for the other team.

137
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:56,320
Um, well, you know, uh, DAs, um, tend to rotate out, uh, of the DA's office, you know, in three

138
00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:02,420
to five years, usually. I mean, some people stay on as career prosecutors, but you know, most,

139
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:08,240
it's almost as if we have classes. Now the DA's office of Miami had 125 DAs.

140
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:14,840
uh it was it's a big it was a big office and so every year there's about 30 that left and 30 that

141
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:26,500
came on just about um but i was lucky because i i interned with a felony prosecutor as my

142
00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:32,260
supervising and he actually let me try two jury trials while i was still in law school

143
00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:42,600
um yeah so uh um and i could tell you there's a story there's stories there but um i um

144
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:48,640
i rose up through the office pretty quickly because i i had a three-year career jump usually

145
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:54,580
you go and do intake you do misdemeanors you do drunk driving you know it takes about three years

146
00:11:54,580 --> 00:12:02,540
to get to felonies. And I started there. So I became up, I rose up, I became chief of the

147
00:12:02,540 --> 00:12:07,980
economic crimes and consumer frauds division. And we went after big boiler room operations and

148
00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:15,800
had joint task forces with the feds against major influencers and things. And we went against

149
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:25,280
the cartels and the mob. Actually, the southern branch of the Gambino mob had a branch in South

150
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:32,900
Florida. And we went after them and hit them for $76 million in a civil case. We just got their

151
00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:44,000
bank accounts. And so that was kind of a high point. I had already, you know, my retirement,

152
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:50,920
after five years, your retirement vests. So you will get some benefit after five years,

153
00:12:51,000 --> 00:13:07,648
even if it just a little bit But I been there six or seven years and I just thought that was a high point It was time to move on So I left the office I walked down the block and there was a couple of old houses

154
00:13:07,828 --> 00:13:10,208
Some of them had been turned into little office buildings

155
00:13:10,208 --> 00:13:15,028
and got a little one-room and a secretary, a little two-room suite.

156
00:13:15,688 --> 00:13:20,908
I hung up my shingle, and inside of two weeks,

157
00:13:21,848 --> 00:13:25,448
Johnny, his name was really Giovanni,

158
00:13:25,448 --> 00:13:30,128
from the Gambino mob came to my office,

159
00:13:30,968 --> 00:13:32,868
walked straight in, passed my secretary,

160
00:13:33,008 --> 00:13:36,008
walked straight in, sat down, and said nothing.

161
00:13:36,188 --> 00:13:38,168
And it scared the bejesus out of me.

162
00:13:39,328 --> 00:13:41,028
And we're looking at each other.

163
00:13:41,028 --> 00:13:44,188
And I mean, I remember this like it was yesterday.

164
00:13:44,728 --> 00:13:49,828
And he goes, you know, you hit us for a lot of money.

165
00:13:51,108 --> 00:13:52,408
He goes, yes, sir.

166
00:13:52,408 --> 00:13:57,888
And he goes, we got good lawyers and you beat them.

167
00:13:58,868 --> 00:14:00,588
We want to send you some clients.

168
00:14:02,848 --> 00:14:07,148
So that started my relationship with the mob,

169
00:14:07,328 --> 00:14:12,368
which led to like being involved with people at the,

170
00:14:12,948 --> 00:14:16,408
where the Colombians and the Peruvians and the Haitians

171
00:14:17,128 --> 00:14:21,848
and the Bolivians and the Italians all speak to each other.

172
00:14:22,408 --> 00:14:37,248
Now, I don't want to mislead. I wasn't like conciliate or taken into it, but they sent me their wholesalers and their mules and people that got arrested and things.

173
00:14:37,548 --> 00:14:42,508
And they always came in with cash and always under the federal reporting limit.

174
00:14:45,248 --> 00:14:47,148
$9,999.

175
00:14:47,828 --> 00:14:51,668
Right. Well, it was usually an even $9,000.

176
00:14:52,408 --> 00:14:53,188
Sure, sure.

177
00:14:54,108 --> 00:14:55,868
Any worry in your mind?

178
00:14:55,948 --> 00:15:01,568
Like maybe I shouldn't get involved with these guys or maybe there's stuff I just don't want to know or be involved with?

179
00:15:01,568 --> 00:15:06,148
Well, there was stuff, of course, that I did not want to know and I didn't know.

180
00:15:06,268 --> 00:15:09,488
And I excused myself when it got to that point.

181
00:15:10,088 --> 00:15:18,168
And I had a very down-to-earth conversation with Johnny and I said, look, I'm not going to do anything illegal and I'm not going to do anything unethical.

182
00:15:19,168 --> 00:15:26,288
And I explained to him that it is much better for him to have a lawyer whose word is respected by the courts.

183
00:15:27,248 --> 00:15:35,228
You know, I mean, in the courts, there's a lot of respect paid back and forth between the bench and the bar.

184
00:15:36,208 --> 00:15:38,808
And it's easy to lose that.

185
00:15:38,928 --> 00:15:46,188
You can spend your whole career, you know, building up that kind of reputation and lose it in a moment.

186
00:15:46,988 --> 00:15:50,548
And I just said to him that I'm not going to do that.

187
00:15:50,568 --> 00:15:51,988
And he said, I understand.

188
00:15:52,588 --> 00:15:57,088
I just want to, you know, I just want you to do what's right.

189
00:15:57,608 --> 00:16:01,208
But just do your best job and, you know, let me know what's going on.

190
00:16:01,268 --> 00:16:03,628
Give me the bad news first and the like.

191
00:16:03,628 --> 00:16:15,728
And it was all good until years later, his son got arrested.

192
00:16:16,188 --> 00:16:20,808
and at that point it was, no, you will do this.

193
00:16:20,868 --> 00:16:23,308
I said, that's suborning perjury.

194
00:16:23,968 --> 00:16:25,608
No, that's creating evidence.

195
00:16:26,008 --> 00:16:28,788
He goes, I really think that you should do this,

196
00:16:28,808 --> 00:16:30,328
and I said, I really think I can't,

197
00:16:30,348 --> 00:16:33,068
and he goes, I really think that you should reconsider that.

198
00:16:35,768 --> 00:16:40,948
And so, well, take it as you will.

199
00:16:40,948 --> 00:16:44,808
It doesn't sound like a known threat.

200
00:16:46,188 --> 00:17:02,128
But it did put me in a box because not only for a lawyer, not only is it unethical to do something unethical, but it's also unethical not to report another lawyer who's acting unethically.

201
00:17:03,688 --> 00:17:09,388
And so even if I said no and he got somebody else to do it, I would be bound to report that.

202
00:17:10,448 --> 00:17:13,788
So the only solution I had was to move away.

203
00:17:13,788 --> 00:17:24,548
so I decided I'd move to North Carolina and I went back I told Johnny I'm gonna move to North

204
00:17:24,548 --> 00:17:32,288
Carolina and and he goes sometimes a man has to move on this way we can part friends and we

205
00:17:32,288 --> 00:17:36,828
understood there was an understanding they never bothered me after that I moved to North Carolina

206
00:17:36,828 --> 00:17:40,108
and started my life over.

207
00:17:41,028 --> 00:17:42,448
No horse heads in the bedroom?

208
00:17:42,688 --> 00:17:44,188
No horse heads in the bedroom.

209
00:17:44,328 --> 00:17:45,088
Nothing like that.

210
00:17:45,268 --> 00:17:45,948
Nothing like that.

211
00:17:46,428 --> 00:17:47,148
That's good.

212
00:17:47,248 --> 00:17:48,688
No new concrete shoes.

213
00:17:49,448 --> 00:17:51,448
That's a good win-win, I guess.

214
00:17:51,708 --> 00:17:51,868
Yeah.

215
00:17:52,468 --> 00:17:54,468
No, it all worked out fine.

216
00:17:55,088 --> 00:17:56,648
It was very good to me.

217
00:17:57,128 --> 00:18:03,528
And also, the other piece of the story is that hanging out with those guys,

218
00:18:03,628 --> 00:18:06,028
again, it was the cocaine cowboy days.

219
00:18:06,028 --> 00:18:08,868
There was a lot of cocaine around and a lot of Chivas Regal.

220
00:18:09,428 --> 00:18:12,168
And I got to say that my behaviors were a bit excessive.

221
00:18:13,608 --> 00:18:17,608
I was coming home at 2 o'clock in the morning and leaving at 5 in the morning.

222
00:18:17,808 --> 00:18:20,508
And I wasn't paying any attention to my family.

223
00:18:20,808 --> 00:18:24,548
And I was burning the candle at both ends.

224
00:18:25,468 --> 00:18:29,008
So I was seeing a therapist during that period of time.

225
00:18:29,008 --> 00:18:44,088
And it turned out that the therapist was the English language editor for books written by Huaching Ni, who is a 72nd generation.

226
00:18:44,928 --> 00:18:46,708
And just think about that when I say it.

227
00:18:47,048 --> 00:18:51,888
For 72 generations, wisdom was handed down from father to son.

228
00:18:51,888 --> 00:18:59,128
So he was a 72nd generation Shaolin Temple Taoist grandmaster.

229
00:19:00,668 --> 00:19:05,868
And he would write books in Chinese and they would be translated into English.

230
00:19:06,008 --> 00:19:13,228
And my therapist was editing his English books and knew him, of course, intimately and was one of his devotees.

231
00:19:13,568 --> 00:19:20,368
And he came to Miami to start a Taoist group.

232
00:19:20,368 --> 00:19:28,168
you know and I had no idea what Taoism was I'd gone to my therapist to ask him a question about

233
00:19:28,168 --> 00:19:34,848
a fork in a road that I was at and I said well George what should I do and he goes I figured he

234
00:19:34,848 --> 00:19:39,828
was going to say something like well you know what therapists say well you know Bob what do you think

235
00:19:39,828 --> 00:19:45,468
you should do you know but instead he picked up three coins and started throwing them on the desk

236
00:19:45,468 --> 00:19:49,668
and making mathematical calculations and then opened up a book.

237
00:19:50,748 --> 00:19:52,668
He wrote Chapter 32.

238
00:19:53,108 --> 00:19:56,568
And then he opened the book up to Chapter 32, and he showed to me,

239
00:19:56,648 --> 00:19:58,988
and the name of the chapter was Retreat.

240
00:20:00,848 --> 00:20:03,968
And I cursed him out, and I walked out,

241
00:20:04,108 --> 00:20:07,408
but that was like he tattooed it on my forehead, Retreat.

242
00:20:07,408 --> 00:20:11,148
So I started to back away from some of those behaviors.

243
00:20:11,308 --> 00:20:12,268
I went back to see him.

244
00:20:12,368 --> 00:20:14,888
That's when I found out who he was and who we know.

245
00:20:14,888 --> 00:20:18,068
The book that he used was something called the I Ching.

246
00:20:19,468 --> 00:20:29,468
And that's like a whole, I mean, the I Ching, it was a major force in bringing me to be who I am today.

247
00:20:31,148 --> 00:20:34,068
Are you all familiar with the I Ching at all?

248
00:20:34,748 --> 00:20:36,768
I'm lightly familiar with it.

249
00:20:36,888 --> 00:20:39,668
I've always heard it referred to as the I Ching.

250
00:20:40,288 --> 00:20:41,368
The I Ching, yeah.

251
00:20:41,968 --> 00:20:42,688
That's right.

252
00:20:42,688 --> 00:20:50,348
I say I Ching because that's how most people, but I Ching is the right pronunciation.

253
00:20:51,108 --> 00:21:06,848
It is a book that breaks the dynamic energy between people and things down into 64 pie slices.

254
00:21:07,648 --> 00:21:10,608
And each of those pie slices has six subslices.

255
00:21:10,608 --> 00:21:17,848
and when I say breaks that energy down it says like it's about timing and it's about understanding

256
00:21:17,848 --> 00:21:24,708
the nature of the flow which is see I the flow that's the reason that I have the podcast

257
00:21:24,708 --> 00:21:30,688
it's like there's a time like Ecclesiastes there's a time to reap and time to sow and time

258
00:21:30,688 --> 00:21:37,108
so the the E-Jing says there's a time to advance there's a time to retreat there's a time to wait

259
00:21:37,108 --> 00:21:38,968
There's a time to punch through.

260
00:21:39,548 --> 00:21:41,648
There's a time of disparity.

261
00:21:42,008 --> 00:21:43,768
There's a time of prosperity.

262
00:21:44,148 --> 00:21:45,148
There's a time of this.

263
00:21:45,248 --> 00:21:46,048
There's a time of that.

264
00:21:46,588 --> 00:21:48,108
So there's all these different times,

265
00:21:48,348 --> 00:21:52,188
and the I Ching helps you to understand

266
00:21:52,188 --> 00:21:56,268
what the quality of those times feels like

267
00:21:56,268 --> 00:22:00,588
and advises about the appropriate, effective, and efficient way

268
00:22:00,588 --> 00:22:02,688
to act within that environment.

269
00:22:02,688 --> 00:22:11,028
in. You might notice that you're dealing with something and you've been futzing around a little

270
00:22:11,028 --> 00:22:17,128
bit and there's just a time when you just have to say, no, we're going, you got to pull the trigger.

271
00:22:17,808 --> 00:22:23,388
So that's a particular energy. If you can recognize that energy and then go ahead and

272
00:22:23,388 --> 00:22:29,588
pull the trigger when the time is right, it makes life effective and efficient. Of course, if you

273
00:22:29,588 --> 00:22:35,868
don't recognize it and you pull the trigger before the right time or after the right time,

274
00:22:36,748 --> 00:22:44,528
you know, it won't be as effective. And so learning that is what the I Ching is all about.

275
00:22:44,528 --> 00:22:50,888
And that leads you to developing more of a wisdom oriented approach towards life.

276
00:22:51,928 --> 00:22:58,388
In this study, is there like a flow chart that you follow of things that you want to do or

277
00:22:58,388 --> 00:23:02,748
Or is it like a left to chance kind of thing with the toss of the coins?

278
00:23:02,908 --> 00:23:03,668
Or how does that work?

279
00:23:04,308 --> 00:23:04,948
Yeah, there is.

280
00:23:05,048 --> 00:23:05,308
It is.

281
00:23:05,448 --> 00:23:08,868
Well, here I can actually show you a little bit.

282
00:23:10,148 --> 00:23:16,288
I mean, to be able to talk about the I Ching is just one of my great passions and love.

283
00:23:16,448 --> 00:23:18,068
So thank you for asking.

284
00:23:18,068 --> 00:23:23,908
But here's a book, The Illustrated I Ching, which I think is a great book for beginners.

285
00:23:23,908 --> 00:23:30,948
and yes, you do assess it randomly,

286
00:23:31,728 --> 00:23:35,088
but Carl Jung, who was a great devotee of the I Ching

287
00:23:35,088 --> 00:23:37,128
and studied it for years and years,

288
00:23:37,988 --> 00:23:44,928
he wrote that the way that it works

289
00:23:44,928 --> 00:23:47,308
and why it is so effective

290
00:23:47,308 --> 00:23:48,848
and why it's a book of wisdom

291
00:23:48,848 --> 00:23:50,828
that has survived thousands of years

292
00:23:50,828 --> 00:23:59,328
is because it actually acts as a bridge between your intuitive mind and your rational mind.

293
00:23:59,988 --> 00:24:05,308
Your intuitive mind doesn't work with words. It works with sensations and feelings and hunches

294
00:24:05,308 --> 00:24:11,668
that's not really put into language. Your rational mind is more effective. Once you have

295
00:24:11,668 --> 00:24:18,748
the words, you can take the actions. When you have the hunches, you just are motivated to do

296
00:24:18,748 --> 00:24:26,228
something. So what the I Ching does is you'll ask it a question like, what do I need to know about

297
00:24:26,228 --> 00:24:35,128
my interview today? And then you engage in some mathematical computations. And what Carl Jung said

298
00:24:35,128 --> 00:24:41,148
is that that ties up the rational mind. It distracts the rational mind because that's math

299
00:24:41,148 --> 00:24:48,248
and you're working with words and numbers. And it allows your intuitive mind to work on the question

300
00:24:48,248 --> 00:24:55,768
now the only thing is can we get the answer that's over on the left side can we get it over to the

301
00:24:55,768 --> 00:25:02,608
right side so once you come up with the chapters and the passages to read which are all nothing but

302
00:25:02,608 --> 00:25:10,148
horoscopy type of wisdoms your mind will automatically select the words that are

303
00:25:10,148 --> 00:25:18,368
necessary to transmit the concept to your rational mind. And so you will actually bridge

304
00:25:18,368 --> 00:25:28,308
that intuitive wisdom over to actionable language, where now you have an idea of how to act. And it's

305
00:25:28,308 --> 00:25:37,368
a learning process because often it's counterintuitive to what you think you should do.

306
00:25:37,368 --> 00:25:45,868
You know, like sometimes just like in all Taoism, you know, you see people moving forward and moving back in Tai Chi.

307
00:25:46,948 --> 00:25:50,808
So a lot of times you're confronted and you want to push against it.

308
00:25:51,168 --> 00:25:57,148
But really the better efficient thing is to move back until the other person runs out of arm.

309
00:25:58,348 --> 00:26:07,876
And then they have no power Then you can move forward again So understanding that flow of moving back when you need to

310
00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:11,996
and moving forward when you should is all what the I Ching does.

311
00:26:12,456 --> 00:26:15,936
In effect, it's word-based Tai Chi.

312
00:26:16,936 --> 00:26:19,036
Is that where the phrase go with the flow comes from?

313
00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:20,976
That's where go with the flow comes from.

314
00:26:20,976 --> 00:26:26,396
But the second piece of that is you have to understand the flow.

315
00:26:27,496 --> 00:26:45,096
Right? Because going with the flow on a nice, you know, soft, easy creek is one thing. Going with the flow in whitewater is something else. Going with the flow heading towards a waterfall is something else too. So you have to understand the flow in order to go with it.

316
00:26:47,596 --> 00:26:49,836
Interesting. Very interesting.

317
00:26:50,496 --> 00:26:51,096
Sorry.

318
00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:54,436
No, no. It's totally okay.

319
00:26:54,436 --> 00:27:11,436
So, okay. So you, you, you made this change, you experienced some, some downturn in your life due to, I'm, I'm just going to throw a little assumption in there that it was work as well as lifestyle.

320
00:27:12,696 --> 00:27:17,936
Well, let's just put it, yeah, it was a drugs. What was it? Music, drugs, and rock and roll.

321
00:27:17,936 --> 00:27:22,856
I just picture you driving around in some fancy sports car with like a big brick cell phone back then.

322
00:27:22,856 --> 00:27:27,216
Like they were actually dollar bills at the nightclub.

323
00:27:27,416 --> 00:27:27,716
I don't know.

324
00:27:28,096 --> 00:27:28,376
Yeah.

325
00:27:28,416 --> 00:27:29,336
That kind of thing.

326
00:27:29,576 --> 00:27:31,396
It was, I was pretty arrogant.

327
00:27:31,576 --> 00:27:32,436
Let's put it that way.

328
00:27:32,976 --> 00:27:34,116
Full of myself.

329
00:27:34,776 --> 00:27:35,836
Fancy Italian suit.

330
00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:41,016
I've always, I've always wondered with, with lawyers and I guess I've never really asked

331
00:27:41,016 --> 00:27:41,356
one.

332
00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:49,476
And, and I do know a few, but one of the things that, that to me has always been mind boggling

333
00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:57,796
is you, I mean, obviously you, you're learning this trade, right? But a part of that learning

334
00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:03,696
experience, and I don't know that you could ever even fully comprehend the entirety of it,

335
00:28:03,696 --> 00:28:10,616
but you have these books like Black's Law where they basically go, you know, those words you use

336
00:28:10,616 --> 00:28:15,116
in your everyday life. No, they don't mean what you think they mean. They mean absolutely something

337
00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:21,476
different, right? Like the, the simple phrase shall is not what you think it would mean in

338
00:28:21,476 --> 00:28:26,976
legalese. That's like a, you will absolutely do this no matter what, there is no option, period.

339
00:28:27,536 --> 00:28:33,276
That's shall doesn't convey that. So I guess one of the things I've always wondered is how,

340
00:28:33,376 --> 00:28:38,876
how do you keep that? How do you keep that straight? And how much, how much time did you

341
00:28:38,876 --> 00:28:46,476
have to spend on learning that language and how different it is from just normal language?

342
00:28:47,856 --> 00:28:53,716
Well, I think the secret to that comes in the word practice. You don't do law, you practice law.

343
00:28:56,176 --> 00:29:02,356
And just like any other practice, it's a constant learning situation. But these days,

344
00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:07,776
I retired from the courts, but I teach over at the university and I teach what's called a

345
00:29:07,776 --> 00:29:13,536
survey course called Business Law to Undergraduates, usually sophomores.

346
00:29:14,416 --> 00:29:20,436
And in that course, we touch on all these different areas of law. And I keep talking to my,

347
00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:24,696
you know, division head and I keep talking to the dean of the business school. And I'm saying,

348
00:29:24,936 --> 00:29:30,476
you know, you shove this thing into one semester. What you're asking me to basically do

349
00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:37,736
is teach Spanish in week one and then teach Greek in week two

350
00:29:37,736 --> 00:29:42,496
and then teach Portuguese in week three

351
00:29:42,496 --> 00:29:47,176
because the language of contracts and the language of civil procedure

352
00:29:47,176 --> 00:29:51,336
and the language of criminal law are all different words.

353
00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:52,756
It's a different vocabulary.

354
00:29:53,676 --> 00:29:58,836
And there's no time for the students to be able to assimilate.

355
00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:01,416
I mean, think about learning Spanish.

356
00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:10,556
You learn a little phrase and then you have to say it a few times and repeat it back a few times and then use it in a few sentences before you own it.

357
00:30:11,136 --> 00:30:24,076
But if you're giving them 37 words this week and a new 37 words that have nothing to do with the first 37 words next week, it's like crazy to try to teach it.

358
00:30:25,336 --> 00:30:27,096
So, yeah, you're absolutely right.

359
00:30:27,096 --> 00:30:31,136
Well, it takes three years, and then it takes years of practice.

360
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,736
And a lot of people are not very good at it.

361
00:30:36,096 --> 00:30:42,016
There's still, you know, there's a lot of folks out there that don't have the language and don't use the words properly, and they get smacked.

362
00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:47,816
But fortunately, you know, I had some good mentors.

363
00:30:51,376 --> 00:30:55,996
And let me tell you a little bit about why I think why.

364
00:30:57,096 --> 00:31:07,176
And so I get accepted to this law school, you know, and I still don't think that, you know, I don't know why I'm going there.

365
00:31:07,236 --> 00:31:07,876
I don't know.

366
00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:10,656
I still am not.

367
00:31:11,696 --> 00:31:15,236
I'm still in denial that I'm even going to go to law school.

368
00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:18,856
And I'm sitting in the lobby before the very first class.

369
00:31:20,616 --> 00:31:24,396
And we're sitting around all these new guys.

370
00:31:24,396 --> 00:31:27,516
Remember, we're the only class because we're just opening.

371
00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:29,456
So there's only one class.

372
00:31:29,956 --> 00:31:32,136
There's no second years or third years.

373
00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:35,796
And we're trying to get to know each other.

374
00:31:35,896 --> 00:31:38,096
And somebody says, well, what kind of a lawyer do you want to be?

375
00:31:38,176 --> 00:31:41,316
And everybody's going around saying what kind of lawyer they want to be.

376
00:31:42,036 --> 00:31:43,416
And I had no idea.

377
00:31:43,836 --> 00:31:48,576
And when it got to me, I said, well, I want to be a judge.

378
00:31:49,996 --> 00:31:53,196
I never got to be a judge, but I just said that.

379
00:31:53,196 --> 00:32:00,756
And I got to tell you that at that moment, there was like a chill, you know, one of those times when you get a chill.

380
00:32:01,656 --> 00:32:06,076
And all of a sudden, am I allowed to say the F word here?

381
00:32:06,756 --> 00:32:07,156
Sure.

382
00:32:07,716 --> 00:32:10,456
Is that beyond being courteous?

383
00:32:11,256 --> 00:32:11,536
No.

384
00:32:12,296 --> 00:32:12,836
Whatever you like.

385
00:32:13,416 --> 00:32:13,676
Okay.

386
00:32:13,676 --> 00:32:24,976
We basically just say, look, if it's part of the language, then it's part of the language, but we try not to go into expletive laden rants.

387
00:32:25,516 --> 00:32:26,296
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

388
00:32:26,716 --> 00:32:29,156
But yes, if you want to say fuck, you can say fuck.

389
00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:29,796
Okay.

390
00:32:30,456 --> 00:32:37,336
So I sat there, that chill came, and I said, holy shit.

391
00:32:38,376 --> 00:32:42,836
I really fucking may amount to something.

392
00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:53,356
you know, and it was like, whoa, this is serious, you know, and I was a mediocre student,

393
00:32:53,356 --> 00:33:03,616
but I graduated with a 4.0, because that all of a sudden, I had a voice, I had agency, I had

394
00:33:03,616 --> 00:33:10,136
the ability to make a difference in another's life, you know, and then coming out of the whole

395
00:33:10,136 --> 00:33:15,616
hippie thing of the 60s and everything else, you know, that was kind of like building up in me.

396
00:33:15,696 --> 00:33:21,096
And then all the tutelage under master knee, it all of a sudden just kind of like, boom,

397
00:33:21,916 --> 00:33:32,776
you know, fell on me in that moment. And, and there was no turning back. And yeah, so, so I,

398
00:33:32,776 --> 00:33:39,136
you do it. You sit there with, I mean, I remember, I remember the first couple of weeks,

399
00:33:39,136 --> 00:34:01,796
You're right. You got Black's Law, which is a dictionary that's this thick, right? You got Black's Law over here and you have your casebook over here and they don't give you textbooks. They only give you cases, case after case after case after case. And you're reading and cases, you know, I mean, they're facts, the issue. Here's the reasoning.

400
00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:04,736
and then the next one, the next one.

401
00:34:05,176 --> 00:34:07,616
And you're reading this and you get to the fourth word

402
00:34:07,616 --> 00:34:09,336
and you go, oh, I got to look that up.

403
00:34:10,056 --> 00:34:11,956
And then, well, I got to look up that word.

404
00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:15,036
And then you got to look up four words over here in Black's Dictionary.

405
00:34:15,376 --> 00:34:18,596
And then you got to go back and then read the next three words

406
00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:20,256
and say, oh, no, I got to look up this one.

407
00:34:20,776 --> 00:34:23,056
And it's like you creep through it.

408
00:34:23,096 --> 00:34:25,376
And I remember it was Fort Lauderdale

409
00:34:25,376 --> 00:34:27,216
and I was in married student housing

410
00:34:27,216 --> 00:34:29,936
at a big window there next to my desk.

411
00:34:29,936 --> 00:34:36,416
I'm looking out and there's beautiful palm trees and breezes making the palm fronds go back and forth.

412
00:34:36,496 --> 00:34:39,376
And I'm thinking that all my friends are on the beach enjoying themselves.

413
00:34:39,656 --> 00:34:41,356
I literally started crying.

414
00:34:46,816 --> 00:34:48,896
It is.

415
00:34:49,316 --> 00:34:49,856
Yeah.

416
00:34:50,516 --> 00:34:51,336
I could see that.

417
00:34:51,536 --> 00:34:56,636
I have a copy of Black's Law and I have done this.

418
00:34:57,376 --> 00:34:59,276
And it's mind boggling.

419
00:34:59,276 --> 00:35:02,716
You're like, oh my, what is going on here?

420
00:35:03,416 --> 00:35:04,316
It really is.

421
00:35:04,636 --> 00:35:05,556
It really is.

422
00:35:05,996 --> 00:35:06,676
It's crazy.

423
00:35:06,676 --> 00:35:07,376
It really is.

424
00:35:07,636 --> 00:35:11,596
Kudos to you for learning as much of it as you managed to.

425
00:35:12,136 --> 00:35:12,516
Thanks.

426
00:35:12,796 --> 00:35:15,136
And then, of course, you do kind of specialize.

427
00:35:15,496 --> 00:35:20,276
And like I say, I spent 40 years doing criminal law and business startups.

428
00:35:20,276 --> 00:35:30,016
And, you know, that was, you know, it's far better to know one thing deep rather than many things shallow.

429
00:35:31,476 --> 00:35:47,096
You know, I mean, but I want to go back to something that you that I don't know if we mentioned it pre pre recording or not about lawyers hearts and lawyers, you know, the reputation for being cold.

430
00:35:47,096 --> 00:35:53,396
And I want to tell you that I've come across a lot of lawyers.

431
00:35:54,236 --> 00:35:55,896
Well, I'm not going to say a lot.

432
00:35:56,376 --> 00:36:00,776
I have come across some lawyers who are at the top of their profession.

433
00:36:01,496 --> 00:36:11,476
And without fail, everyone that is at the top of their profession is a very heartfelt, compassionate human being.

434
00:36:11,476 --> 00:36:23,116
You know, we have this crazy charge to love our clients and stand for them.

435
00:36:23,116 --> 00:36:41,376
And I got to tell you guys, the sensation of standing up for somebody or something or some principle, that action is sacred.

436
00:36:41,476 --> 00:36:44,696
to those that see it that way.

437
00:36:45,016 --> 00:36:47,636
Now, there's some that just are in for the paycheck,

438
00:36:47,936 --> 00:36:50,396
and there's some that just want to write contracts.

439
00:36:50,396 --> 00:36:55,936
But if you're a trial lawyer and you stand up for something or somebody,

440
00:36:56,436 --> 00:37:03,596
it is sacred, and it opens your heart.

441
00:37:05,196 --> 00:37:08,796
I don't know if I would have gotten to that point

442
00:37:08,796 --> 00:37:20,916
If it wasn't for my experience with Master Nee or, you know, those years of study with him, maybe I was that way anyway and it just needed to catch up with me.

443
00:37:20,976 --> 00:37:22,116
I can't tell you.

444
00:37:23,036 --> 00:37:38,516
I think one of the biggest things probably people have a hard time understanding is how a criminal defense lawyer, when you're defending somebody that's been railroaded by the justice system and is unfairly being prosecuted, that's one thing.

445
00:37:38,516 --> 00:37:46,396
But when somebody is, even if they don't say it, you obviously know they're guilty as anything, how you can defend them.

446
00:37:46,516 --> 00:37:47,896
And I understand it's your position.

447
00:37:47,996 --> 00:37:51,076
How do you reconcile that personally when you were doing that?

448
00:37:51,676 --> 00:37:52,436
Great question.

449
00:37:52,696 --> 00:37:53,296
Great question.

450
00:37:55,576 --> 00:38:00,296
There's a couple of kind of funny answers, but then this very serious answer to that.

451
00:38:00,296 --> 00:38:08,716
one of the lighter answers is that you go into the courtroom and if you're not going to,

452
00:38:10,496 --> 00:38:15,316
if you're, you know, if you're not inclined, this guy's a dirtbag. Let me tell you, I have

453
00:38:15,316 --> 00:38:23,376
represented child abusers, child rapists, you know, all, there's nothing that anybody has done

454
00:38:23,376 --> 00:38:24,656
that I haven't represented him.

455
00:38:26,956 --> 00:38:31,096
And if you're going to go in there, you know,

456
00:38:31,136 --> 00:38:33,736
and just try to get through the trial, you know,

457
00:38:33,796 --> 00:38:36,696
because, you know, the guy's a dirtbag and you know he's guilty,

458
00:38:37,256 --> 00:38:40,156
that doesn't mean that the prosecutor isn't going to come over

459
00:38:40,156 --> 00:38:41,856
with a hammer and tap you on the head.

460
00:38:42,416 --> 00:38:45,156
Matter of fact, we had an expression in Miami called a Maxwell.

461
00:38:46,156 --> 00:38:47,796
Do you all remember from the Beatles?

462
00:38:47,796 --> 00:38:52,216
And Maxwell's silver hammer came down on his head, tap, tap.

463
00:38:52,216 --> 00:39:13,604
Well whenever you going into a case and you going to get smashed and you know you going to get smashed you know because they got all the evidence in the world and your guy too stupid to take a plea and he got to go to trial It a Maxwell But the guy comes over and he not going to pull back any the DA

464
00:39:14,004 --> 00:39:15,504
He's coming at you full bore.

465
00:39:15,724 --> 00:39:20,744
And you can only get hit and smacked on the head so many times before you start to get your dander up.

466
00:39:22,124 --> 00:39:23,904
It's just like that.

467
00:39:24,044 --> 00:39:27,404
You're in an adversarial situation.

468
00:39:27,404 --> 00:39:33,344
And if you sit back, it's not like he's going to be easy on you.

469
00:39:34,004 --> 00:39:35,144
So that's one thing.

470
00:39:35,844 --> 00:39:50,224
But the serious answer to that is that the worst of them is where the state is going to take the most liberties in convicting them.

471
00:39:50,744 --> 00:39:52,664
That's where they're going to take the shortcuts.

472
00:39:53,184 --> 00:39:55,444
That's where they're going to create evidence.

473
00:39:55,444 --> 00:39:58,684
That's where they're going to coach their officers what to say.

474
00:39:59,564 --> 00:40:06,224
And their job is to enforce the law for the public safety.

475
00:40:06,844 --> 00:40:09,884
My job is to enforce the Constitution.

476
00:40:10,604 --> 00:40:12,484
I prosecute the Constitution.

477
00:40:13,244 --> 00:40:20,064
I am the guy who every cop out there and every prosecutor out there knows that if they take

478
00:40:20,064 --> 00:40:30,924
a shortcut, if they aren't truthful about why they made that stop, that somebody is going to

479
00:40:30,924 --> 00:40:38,964
be looking behind them saying, why did you do this? Why didn't you do that? And if it wasn't for

480
00:40:38,964 --> 00:40:46,844
enforcing the Constitution, power abuses and absolute power abuses absolutely. And I can tell

481
00:40:46,844 --> 00:40:55,564
you that it's a lot easier sometimes to get a conviction just by changing a little fact here

482
00:40:55,564 --> 00:41:03,124
or not telling the lawyer about this or you have some exculpatory fact that you don't share and

483
00:41:03,124 --> 00:41:06,564
things like that. And there has to be somebody that's going to hold you accountable for that.

484
00:41:07,664 --> 00:41:15,984
And so you don't do it for the dirtbag. You do it for the liberty and freedom that we hold dear.

485
00:41:16,844 --> 00:41:28,664
And that's an important charge. So it gives you the moral strength, I suppose, to stand up.

486
00:41:28,664 --> 00:41:44,264
I mean, I represented a guy who was charged with raping his 12-year-old stepdaughter who was given to him to care for for the night by the mom who had to do something, go away.

487
00:41:44,264 --> 00:41:50,784
and they found his DNA on the intravaginal swab,

488
00:41:51,284 --> 00:41:52,964
an intra-insider.

489
00:41:52,964 --> 00:41:54,524
They got his DNA.

490
00:41:55,844 --> 00:41:59,504
And so there's going to be a Maxwell, right?

491
00:42:00,344 --> 00:42:07,724
And his defense was that the mom had come that morning

492
00:42:07,724 --> 00:42:10,444
and had seduced him with a condom

493
00:42:10,444 --> 00:42:17,524
and had taken his sperm and painted it on her daughter's panties,

494
00:42:17,524 --> 00:42:20,824
and somehow it gravitated up into her.

495
00:42:21,464 --> 00:42:22,164
Quite the story.

496
00:42:22,684 --> 00:42:23,644
Yes, quite the story.

497
00:42:24,364 --> 00:42:28,824
And, you know, he was looking at life twice over.

498
00:42:29,324 --> 00:42:33,084
And I worked out a plea for 12 years first,

499
00:42:33,084 --> 00:42:36,984
and then I even got the DA to come down to eight years.

500
00:42:37,124 --> 00:42:38,564
The guy was 56 years old.

501
00:42:38,564 --> 00:42:42,464
and he wouldn't take it.

502
00:42:42,704 --> 00:42:44,244
He wouldn't take the plea, eight years,

503
00:42:44,944 --> 00:42:46,924
because he said I didn't do it.

504
00:42:48,424 --> 00:42:51,804
So I fought my heart out for him.

505
00:42:52,144 --> 00:42:54,344
My closing argument went two hours.

506
00:42:54,484 --> 00:42:57,304
I was soaked with sweat when it was over

507
00:42:57,304 --> 00:42:59,564
and the jury listened to me very intently

508
00:42:59,564 --> 00:43:01,664
and they went out and deliberated.

509
00:43:01,664 --> 00:43:04,224
They came back in 14 minutes guilty as hell.

510
00:43:06,484 --> 00:43:07,884
Guilty as hell.

511
00:43:08,564 --> 00:43:10,964
And so the guy went off.

512
00:43:11,024 --> 00:43:12,904
He got 76 years.

513
00:43:13,964 --> 00:43:15,564
So he'll die in prison.

514
00:43:16,084 --> 00:43:17,164
I said goodbye to him.

515
00:43:17,224 --> 00:43:18,744
He went out with his head held high.

516
00:43:18,844 --> 00:43:21,364
At least I stood up because I'm innocent, he said.

517
00:43:22,004 --> 00:43:27,784
And I guess maybe it's going to be better in prison for him if he can continue to say, I never pled guilty to that.

518
00:43:27,844 --> 00:43:31,224
I didn't do it because child abusers are not treated very well.

519
00:43:31,224 --> 00:43:37,944
but the upside of it was that the whole jury waited outside the courtroom

520
00:43:37,944 --> 00:43:44,444
and for me to come out and they all came up to me and they said if i ever get in trouble i want you

521
00:43:44,444 --> 00:43:53,864
to be my lawyer i mean you didn't have nothing but you did a great job have you ever had anybody

522
00:43:53,864 --> 00:43:58,464
that was that you thought was genuinely innocent and that protested their innocence and you're like

523
00:43:58,464 --> 00:44:03,764
man, you have to take this deal because whatever they got on you or whatever they made up or got,

524
00:44:04,204 --> 00:44:07,384
they're going to put you away for a long time if you don't take this deal.

525
00:44:07,924 --> 00:44:12,964
This is the biggest heartbreak in criminal law, what you're talking about right now.

526
00:44:12,964 --> 00:44:19,524
Because, all right.

527
00:44:19,524 --> 00:44:27,124
when the evidence,

528
00:44:27,784 --> 00:44:29,924
so let's say that you're my client, okay?

529
00:44:30,804 --> 00:44:34,144
And I'm talking to you and we have a case

530
00:44:34,144 --> 00:44:37,064
and you are innocent, okay?

531
00:44:38,224 --> 00:44:40,784
But the evidence that's against you,

532
00:44:40,784 --> 00:44:44,364
maybe it's a he said, she said, could be.

533
00:44:44,964 --> 00:44:48,224
Or maybe it's just eyewitness testimony.

534
00:44:49,524 --> 00:44:54,764
and let's say you're looking at, oh, this would be a typical one, an armed robbery.

535
00:44:56,144 --> 00:45:02,744
Okay, somebody had a knife, approached this guy in the darkness and took his wallet.

536
00:45:03,764 --> 00:45:07,604
Armed robbery is a class D felony. You're looking at a minimum of six years.

537
00:45:09,664 --> 00:45:17,364
Strong armed robbery, taking somebody by force without an arm, drops it down to possibly probation.

538
00:45:19,524 --> 00:45:27,304
I am talking to you now as my client and I say, okay, Alex, look, here's the situation.

539
00:45:28,064 --> 00:45:34,744
The guy says it was you. He positively identifies it as you. The jury listens to that and they're

540
00:45:34,744 --> 00:45:39,504
going to consider it. The guy doesn't have a dog in the fight. This is who he is, blah, blah, blah.

541
00:45:39,504 --> 00:45:45,904
He seems to be a pretty credible guy. Eyewitness testimony can be faulty and that's our best

542
00:45:45,904 --> 00:45:54,044
argument. The alibi that you have is, you know, you're home alone. We can't verify it.

543
00:45:55,164 --> 00:46:05,884
So here's the deal. You can either go to trial and roll the dice. And since you have these little

544
00:46:05,884 --> 00:46:13,304
misdemeanor records, if you testify, you're going to be impeached with them. And based on the chart,

545
00:46:13,304 --> 00:46:19,144
you'll wind up in the 12 to 14 year range of sentencing if you get convicted.

546
00:46:20,844 --> 00:46:33,044
If we take the plea to strong arm robbery, you're probably looking at 18 months probation.

547
00:46:34,884 --> 00:46:42,984
And now the only other thing that you need from me is what my opinion is as to your chances of

548
00:46:42,984 --> 00:46:48,684
winning because the jury can do anything. So let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that

549
00:46:48,684 --> 00:46:56,844
the guy messes up a little bit on the stand and you testify really well. Under those conditions,

550
00:46:56,844 --> 00:47:05,024
with eyewitness testimony, I would say I would give you a 70% chance of winning, giving you the

551
00:47:05,024 --> 00:47:10,844
benefit of the doubt at the most, the best that we can do, even if I do a magnificent job for you,

552
00:47:10,844 --> 00:47:17,804
maybe 70%. So my question to you is, do you want to take a 30% chance of doing 12 years?

553
00:47:20,464 --> 00:47:26,204
Yeah. I'm sure there also factors into it some financial aspect because trials

554
00:47:26,204 --> 00:47:30,504
aren't free and firmly hiring experts and all that stuff.

555
00:47:30,704 --> 00:47:37,764
Yeah. Let's assume I'm an appointed attorney. So money's not an issue because I can get money

556
00:47:37,764 --> 00:47:39,344
for an investigator from the court.

557
00:47:40,024 --> 00:47:41,944
So people have a right to an attorney.

558
00:47:42,064 --> 00:47:43,044
So money is not an issue.

559
00:47:44,544 --> 00:47:47,424
Just are you willing to take a 30% chance

560
00:47:47,424 --> 00:47:50,604
of losing your job, losing your home,

561
00:47:50,724 --> 00:47:52,004
having your wife out?

562
00:47:52,584 --> 00:47:55,584
You know what 12 years in prison will do to a life?

563
00:47:55,804 --> 00:47:58,304
That's a big if for a one in three shot though.

564
00:47:58,544 --> 00:47:58,684
Yeah.

565
00:47:59,144 --> 00:47:59,424
Yeah.

566
00:47:59,744 --> 00:48:02,224
Or you're going to go on 18 months probation

567
00:48:02,224 --> 00:48:04,724
and have a felony record for the rest of your life.

568
00:48:05,044 --> 00:48:05,384
Right.

569
00:48:05,384 --> 00:48:10,164
people will take the deal.

570
00:48:11,044 --> 00:48:16,544
And we even have a very special plea called an Alford plea,

571
00:48:17,204 --> 00:48:18,944
where they don't come in and plead guilty.

572
00:48:18,944 --> 00:48:22,184
They come in and say, I am not saying I did it,

573
00:48:22,264 --> 00:48:24,744
but I am saying that if we went to trial,

574
00:48:24,944 --> 00:48:27,724
that the state has enough evidence to convict me.

575
00:48:28,924 --> 00:48:31,824
But it's treated just like a guilty plea.

576
00:48:32,484 --> 00:48:32,624
Right.

577
00:48:32,624 --> 00:48:39,684
So that's the biggest heartbreak because then, you know, there's just nothing you can do.

578
00:48:39,964 --> 00:48:41,064
That's how the system works.

579
00:48:41,584 --> 00:48:44,644
It's one of those things that I've always had a big issue with, right?

580
00:48:44,804 --> 00:48:45,784
I really do.

581
00:48:45,784 --> 00:48:59,904
I honestly, look, the whole plea bargaining system, I think, is likely if it were ever contested in a real manner and taken to the proper courts.

582
00:48:59,904 --> 00:49:04,964
I think it would be seen as unconstitutional personally.

583
00:49:06,064 --> 00:49:09,784
And I have to tell you that this whole thing of an Alford plea,

584
00:49:10,684 --> 00:49:15,324
okay, it's called an Alford plea because the case of the state versus Alford,

585
00:49:15,664 --> 00:49:20,344
who gave this kind of a plea, who came before a court and said,

586
00:49:20,344 --> 00:49:26,324
I am not guilty, but I'm pleading guilty, but only because the evidence against me.

587
00:49:26,584 --> 00:49:29,244
It's got all the way to the Supreme Court three times.

588
00:49:29,904 --> 00:49:32,924
And each time they said it is okay to do that.

589
00:49:34,184 --> 00:49:36,224
Yeah, and I'm sure they do.

590
00:49:36,224 --> 00:49:50,124
And of course, you mentioned in the beginning, you were at one location with 120 prosecutors in the office.

591
00:49:50,944 --> 00:49:51,104
Okay.

592
00:49:52,064 --> 00:49:55,644
This speaks to a staggering volume.

593
00:49:55,644 --> 00:50:02,624
and of course they're going to uphold that because that is what moves the system the fact of the

594
00:50:02,624 --> 00:50:09,504
matter is you have a right to a fair and a speedy trial and one of the very first things they'll

595
00:50:09,504 --> 00:50:15,444
always get you to waive is your right to a speedy trial because they're so booked up it's difficult

596
00:50:15,444 --> 00:50:22,904
for them to get cases put in on the docket and with a judge and in a courtroom within that 30

597
00:50:22,904 --> 00:50:28,164
day limit. Um, so you give that up, that gives them some leeway and then the plea bargaining

598
00:50:28,164 --> 00:50:32,604
comes in and you're essentially, you know, put into a situation where it's like, yeah,

599
00:50:32,784 --> 00:50:36,324
you know, Hey, we're, we're going to, we're going to go super easy on you. If you just

600
00:50:36,324 --> 00:50:40,404
make it easy on us, we don't have to spend money. We don't have to book the courtroom

601
00:50:40,404 --> 00:50:46,744
for, you know, weeks on end. We don't have to waste all this time and yada, yada, yada,

602
00:50:46,744 --> 00:50:52,724
just plea. And, you know, it kind of goes away, you know? And I just think it's a terrible

603
00:50:52,724 --> 00:50:57,804
system. I think it's our... Let me give you some real numbers. Here in Alamance County,

604
00:50:58,464 --> 00:51:10,424
population I think is 92,000, the entire county. Burlington, the main town, has 41,000. So it's,

605
00:51:10,424 --> 00:51:17,944
you know, doesn't even rise to becoming a mid-level city or a small city. In this county,

606
00:51:17,944 --> 00:51:28,304
we have one felony courtroom, which means that we can try a maximum of 52 cases a year if we can

607
00:51:28,304 --> 00:51:36,004
get a case into one week. Sometimes trials go to three weeks. But let's say you get 52 trials in

608
00:51:36,004 --> 00:51:45,484
in a week, we have 1,750 pending felonies. So those are the real numbers.

609
00:51:45,484 --> 00:52:04,944
And that, I think, is more the reasoning why that system is allowed to remain, honestly. I think it fails a lot of tests in the individual liberties that are ours and protected from the...

610
00:52:04,992 --> 00:52:31,812
Yeah. But on the other hand, though, I would say that 90% of the cases that flow through are solid pleas. 90%. The guy did it. And if it wasn't for the numbers, let's say a guy does a strong arm robbery, he could get anywhere from probation to six months in jail.

611
00:52:31,812 --> 00:52:40,752
Well, if it wasn't for plea bargaining, he would wind up with six months in jail because the prosecution would always want to punish people for it.

612
00:52:41,032 --> 00:52:50,192
But because of plea bargaining, he has to get to whatever the norm of the county has become because of the pressure to move cases.

613
00:52:51,112 --> 00:52:58,112
So most of the time, the defendants wind up better off, which may not be good for society.

614
00:52:58,112 --> 00:53:05,332
I won't go into that issue, but most of the time, you know, there's a certain place where it's all negotiations.

615
00:53:05,332 --> 00:53:14,492
And most of the time it's fair and the client's happy and they feel they're being appropriately dealt with and the like.

616
00:53:14,652 --> 00:53:18,512
And, you know, a lot of it is just completely non-controversial.

617
00:53:18,752 --> 00:53:21,552
Then you get that percentage that really is.

618
00:53:21,832 --> 00:53:23,512
Do the negotiations work?

619
00:53:23,512 --> 00:53:30,992
Are they basically just up to the whim of the prosecutor that they – what kind of mood they're in or is there kind of like a format to how that works?

620
00:53:31,812 --> 00:53:33,412
There's actually a chart.

621
00:53:33,892 --> 00:53:34,352
Oh, okay.

622
00:53:34,352 --> 00:53:58,072
And the seriousness of the felonies are given a letter, like possession of cocaine is a class H, armed robbery is a class D, second degree murder is a class B, first degree murder is an A, and a first degree murder with aggravating circumstances is an A1.

623
00:53:58,072 --> 00:54:05,772
So there's a chart. So it goes from H to A1 up the left side and across the right side going out.

624
00:54:06,092 --> 00:54:10,072
It's how many points that you have been given for convictions.

625
00:54:10,712 --> 00:54:14,712
So misdemeanor gets one point. Class H felony gets two points.

626
00:54:15,152 --> 00:54:17,252
A class D felony gets four points.

627
00:54:17,572 --> 00:54:22,932
So you look at, you know, is this one to three points, three to five points, four to 17 points.

628
00:54:22,932 --> 00:54:30,172
And so you have a column and now you go the seriousness of the crime and the person's record and that gives you a box.

629
00:54:30,712 --> 00:54:34,232
And in the box, you have the range of sentence.

630
00:54:34,392 --> 00:54:42,032
So let's say you're up, you're over to the right and high enough where you're getting active sentences.

631
00:54:42,692 --> 00:54:46,292
The sentences might be in the normal range.

632
00:54:46,552 --> 00:54:48,972
It might be six to 12 months.

633
00:54:48,972 --> 00:54:55,652
in the aggravated range, it could be 10 to 15 months. And in the mitigated range,

634
00:54:55,652 --> 00:55:01,732
it could be four to eight months. And so if you can come in and argue to the judge

635
00:55:01,732 --> 00:55:07,072
that this is a particularly bad case of this particular crime, or there are some real

636
00:55:07,072 --> 00:55:12,652
mitigating circumstances, the judge can go to any one of those three ranges.

637
00:55:12,652 --> 00:55:21,292
and you make your argument and the judge sentences within that box. So all the negotiations.

638
00:55:21,812 --> 00:55:28,392
So now what you can do though is the class D felony, which is the armed robbery, which is way

639
00:55:28,392 --> 00:55:37,172
up here. Then you say, well, we'll change the charge and drop it down to no weapon. Now you're

640
00:55:37,172 --> 00:55:44,492
in a different box. And so what the charge is, dropping the charge, dropping, you might be

641
00:55:44,492 --> 00:55:49,432
charged with six charges, whether you consolidate them, they all run at the same time, or whether

642
00:55:49,432 --> 00:55:57,352
they run tail to tail. These are all negotiating things where, you know, well, you know, okay,

643
00:55:57,432 --> 00:56:02,292
I'll take the armed robbery, but only if you consolidate it, everything runs at the same time.

644
00:56:02,292 --> 00:56:10,472
okay so it's just negotiations what is the difference between somebody pleading guilty

645
00:56:10,472 --> 00:56:17,092
i did it or no contest or is there any difference in that we the no contest is the alfred plea

646
00:56:17,092 --> 00:56:23,312
oh okay that's what that okay all right now no contest is civil really sometimes people don't

647
00:56:23,312 --> 00:56:31,692
want to admit wrongdoing um but generally in a civil case they would settle the court case out

648
00:56:31,692 --> 00:56:38,692
a court. And so there wouldn't be really a no contest. No contest was the old language. The

649
00:56:38,692 --> 00:56:45,052
new language is an Alford plea. I see. Okay. Yeah. It's typically basically just like I'm

650
00:56:45,052 --> 00:56:51,912
not admitting guilt, but I'll take the guilty verdict. Right. And it's protection against

651
00:56:51,912 --> 00:56:59,732
further lawsuits. Yeah. And we do have one other mechanism. We actually have the ability to

652
00:56:59,732 --> 00:57:06,592
withhold judgment. And so in some cases, that's another negotiating point. Well, we'll do this,

653
00:57:06,712 --> 00:57:10,552
but withhold the judgment, which means the person winds up without a record.

654
00:57:11,432 --> 00:57:18,752
The record sometimes can be the most devastating thing. I remember there was one judge,

655
00:57:19,072 --> 00:57:25,192
every time he started misdemeanor court, he would come in and the courtroom's packed with

656
00:57:25,192 --> 00:57:29,432
all these people that are driving while impaired or misdemeanaled

657
00:57:29,432 --> 00:57:33,092
larceny or whatever. And he would always start by saying,

658
00:57:33,212 --> 00:57:37,292
how many people here have a felony record? And a few people

659
00:57:37,292 --> 00:57:41,372
would raise their hands. He says, can I ask you, is it true

660
00:57:41,372 --> 00:57:45,272
that having a felony record really messes up your life? And they all

661
00:57:45,272 --> 00:57:49,252
go, yeah, yeah, it's horrible, it's bad. So then

662
00:57:49,252 --> 00:57:53,352
he says to the rest of the courtroom, now listen guys, having a record's really

663
00:57:53,352 --> 00:57:59,072
a bad thing. So, you know, if you're getting into a little bit of trouble, don't get into a lot of

664
00:57:59,072 --> 00:58:04,412
big trouble or something like that. You know, you always use warning folks. But yeah, that can be

665
00:58:04,412 --> 00:58:08,932
devastating, especially when we get into the whole structural racism thing.

666
00:58:10,612 --> 00:58:18,272
Because, you know, people of color have an increased chance of being stopped.

667
00:58:18,272 --> 00:58:25,972
and they also have an increased chance of being searched. There are literally more white people

668
00:58:25,972 --> 00:58:32,352
driving around with marijuana than black people, but there are more black people that get arrested

669
00:58:32,352 --> 00:58:41,632
for possession of marijuana than white people. So go explain that, right? And so when you start

670
00:58:41,632 --> 00:58:48,312
having a situation where it's part of the societal structure that a particular race

671
00:58:48,312 --> 00:58:55,712
winds up with more people having records that means less earning power less ability to accumulate

672
00:58:55,712 --> 00:59:01,212
wealth and um you know there's something that's been going on for 200 years

673
00:59:01,212 --> 00:59:09,752
no i'm sorry if i keep going on with these lawyer questions it's no no no it intrigues me

674
00:59:09,752 --> 00:59:14,152
One of my guilty pleasures is watching court cases on YouTube.

675
00:59:14,152 --> 00:59:14,952
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

676
00:59:14,952 --> 00:59:23,512
And one of the ones that I find particularly interesting are the ones that try to defend themselves.

677
00:59:24,772 --> 00:59:28,952
And they do the whatever sovereign citizen kind of thing.

678
00:59:29,272 --> 00:59:32,012
I mean, it sounds to me like they're just babbling a bunch of words.

679
00:59:32,272 --> 00:59:35,432
Is there anything to that stuff and they're just not doing it right?

680
00:59:35,432 --> 00:59:39,612
Or is it just stuff that they picked up on the internet?

681
00:59:39,752 --> 00:59:46,072
conspiracy theorists and they're talking about yeah you don't have any right over me and they

682
00:59:46,072 --> 00:59:52,232
have these theories and things like that but like i'm i'm not the man jim jones i'm you know like the

683
00:59:52,232 --> 00:59:57,632
free person whatever whatever kind of stuff they're trying to say i i really don't understand

684
00:59:57,632 --> 01:00:03,172
it but it never seems to really work out for them especially on the side of the road they always end

685
01:00:03,172 --> 01:00:06,752
up with like their window smashed and they're getting dragged out of the side of the car

686
01:00:06,752 --> 01:00:12,692
yeah we have an expression is this the lawyer who represents himself as a fool for a client

687
01:00:12,692 --> 01:00:20,872
and that certainly can be true but i've also seen some people come in and do pro se and and really

688
01:00:20,872 --> 01:00:35,162
rock it out of the house just using standard procedural arguments right i mean yeah like you were supposed to do this and you didn do this right you have no claim at this point right

689
01:00:35,162 --> 01:00:42,342
so you know there's there's but those guys the you know i'm yeah i am a living man and all that

690
01:00:42,342 --> 01:00:46,922
stuff yeah yeah yeah hey that doesn't know but if the person is making a good argument

691
01:00:46,922 --> 01:00:55,082
it can be very effective. I mean, think about it, that you have an accuser on the stand

692
01:00:55,082 --> 01:01:05,222
being cross-examined by the accused. That can spook anybody. That can spook anybody. And so,

693
01:01:05,402 --> 01:01:15,202
it can have some effective intimidation effects that are positive if they're done correctly.

694
01:01:15,202 --> 01:01:28,762
But, you know, I mean, like you say, you were saying it's a practice and it takes skill and you're going to make a lot of mistakes before you get any good at it and just go off the bat one time.

695
01:01:28,762 --> 01:01:32,322
But there are those that that did.

696
01:01:35,102 --> 01:01:36,542
What's the case?

697
01:01:36,782 --> 01:01:37,502
Excuse me.

698
01:01:41,582 --> 01:01:42,582
Gillian's.

699
01:01:43,462 --> 01:01:44,382
Sword.

700
01:01:45,202 --> 01:01:51,902
I just can't think of it.

701
01:01:51,922 --> 01:01:52,982
It was made into a movie.

702
01:01:53,662 --> 01:01:57,422
There was the fellow who took his case, he was pro se,

703
01:01:57,942 --> 01:02:01,222
and his argument was that he had a right to an attorney,

704
01:02:01,302 --> 01:02:02,342
but he couldn't afford one.

705
01:02:03,642 --> 01:02:07,502
And he argued that case all the way up to the Supreme Court and won.

706
01:02:08,022 --> 01:02:11,142
And because of him, we have public defenders.

707
01:02:13,242 --> 01:02:14,442
Yeah, yeah.

708
01:02:14,602 --> 01:02:14,782
Yeah.

709
01:02:15,202 --> 01:02:18,162
but he did that pro se all on his own.

710
01:02:18,522 --> 01:02:20,582
I think that's pretty mostly from jail.

711
01:02:21,082 --> 01:02:21,562
And,

712
01:02:21,562 --> 01:02:22,242
and seeing,

713
01:02:22,642 --> 01:02:26,422
seeing that I actually get a kick out of the pro se stuff.

714
01:02:26,522 --> 01:02:26,662
I,

715
01:02:26,702 --> 01:02:29,842
I like to tune into some of that on YouTube as well,

716
01:02:29,842 --> 01:02:34,782
because there's some interesting arguments that are presented that it makes

717
01:02:34,782 --> 01:02:36,482
sometimes I wonder,

718
01:02:36,482 --> 01:02:36,862
I'm like,

719
01:02:36,922 --> 01:02:37,042
well,

720
01:02:37,722 --> 01:02:38,482
why,

721
01:02:38,722 --> 01:02:41,882
why aren't the lawyers doing more of this?

722
01:02:41,882 --> 01:02:42,182
Right.

723
01:02:42,322 --> 01:02:43,742
And maybe they are,

724
01:02:43,782 --> 01:02:45,062
and we just don't see it.

725
01:02:45,062 --> 01:03:08,322
But, you know, they pull some obscure weirdness out and it's like, hey, it's right here. It's in the, you know, title, blah, blah, blah, section, blah, blah, blah. You know, you must do this and you didn't do this. And well, it's no longer a valid, you know, case, right? Or whatever. And it's just interesting to me. But again, like you said, it's practice.

726
01:03:08,322 --> 01:03:15,122
going back to what you were saying about like you know lx's question which i think is a very

727
01:03:15,122 --> 01:03:21,682
interesting one right morally and ethically defending people that you know have guilt i i

728
01:03:21,682 --> 01:03:31,322
remember i remember uh sitting in court i i was in a job where i was trying to get people to uh

729
01:03:31,322 --> 01:03:40,082
get people help as opposed to jail, which doesn't help anyone. It's just not, not helpful to anyone,

730
01:03:40,142 --> 01:03:47,682
right? There's no rehabilitation going on. Let's be honest there. But I remember the, the,

731
01:03:47,682 --> 01:03:53,082
a case that had came up before the case that I was there for, and I was, you know,

732
01:03:53,182 --> 01:04:00,642
sitting in the courtroom waiting because you kind of have to, right. And the gentleman had been

733
01:04:00,642 --> 01:04:06,742
pulled over and they, you know, pulled him out of the car and had him sit on the curb and all this

734
01:04:06,742 --> 01:04:12,282
stuff. And, you know, they finally got an answer back and, you know, got a warrant, searched his

735
01:04:12,282 --> 01:04:18,322
car, popped the trunk, and there's just a trunk full of drugs. I mean, the guy's red-handed. It's,

736
01:04:18,322 --> 01:04:25,362
you know, come on, dude, this was you. And I remember the lawyer came in and in 10 minutes,

737
01:04:25,362 --> 01:04:46,302
The case was dismissed. And outside the hall afterwards, I remember hearing the prosecutor and the lawyer arguing about this. I was kind of eavesdropping. And the lawyer basically, the way he won was they had pulled the guy out of the car and sat him on the curb for, I think it was like 45 or 50 minutes.

738
01:04:46,302 --> 01:04:53,102
and the lawyer came back and said, that's an illegal stop. You can't just unreasonably

739
01:04:53,102 --> 01:04:59,862
detain someone for, you know, and you know, whatever amount of time you feel is necessary

740
01:04:59,862 --> 01:05:06,022
and then wait for the warrant and then go and take your action. So he got off scot-free case

741
01:05:06,022 --> 01:05:10,862
was dismissed. And I remember they were arguing and the prosecutor was like, I can't believe you

742
01:05:10,862 --> 01:05:16,822
did this you know blah blah blah blah and he just said look you know we all have rights and while in

743
01:05:16,822 --> 01:05:26,962
this case yeah dead dead to rights it's not okay for that precedent to be set which is you know

744
01:05:26,962 --> 01:05:34,902
detrimental to the rights of everyone else you know and so it's drugs back though probably not

745
01:05:34,902 --> 01:05:36,582
No, he didn't get a cigarette.

746
01:05:36,582 --> 01:05:37,542
Probably not.

747
01:05:37,762 --> 01:05:44,542
But, you know, the thing is that we already know.

748
01:05:45,022 --> 01:05:48,782
I mean, if we want to face reality and look at the numbers,

749
01:05:48,922 --> 01:05:52,922
we already know that there is racial profiling that goes on.

750
01:05:53,142 --> 01:05:57,182
And if we get into what ICE is doing with Hispanics,

751
01:05:57,382 --> 01:06:01,522
and I don't even want to, I mean, that's a whole other level.

752
01:06:01,522 --> 01:06:05,902
but even your regular cop on the street,

753
01:06:05,902 --> 01:06:07,862
we know from the numbers,

754
01:06:08,042 --> 01:06:09,642
there's racial profiling goes on.

755
01:06:09,722 --> 01:06:10,642
So here's the thing.

756
01:06:10,822 --> 01:06:17,222
If that particular guy was prosecuted

757
01:06:17,222 --> 01:06:20,002
in spite of a violation of his rights,

758
01:06:20,422 --> 01:06:24,822
then those police officers who did that

759
01:06:24,822 --> 01:06:28,282
would be empowered to stop more people

760
01:06:28,282 --> 01:06:30,562
and they would tend to stop those people

761
01:06:30,562 --> 01:06:37,342
who don't look like them. And so we would just, so the balance comes down to, are we going to let

762
01:06:37,342 --> 01:06:48,862
this one bad guy go in order to put some guardrails on state conduct, or are we not?

763
01:06:50,362 --> 01:06:59,862
A really powerful example of this was when I was a prosecutor, there was a case, and I kind of set

764
01:06:59,862 --> 01:07:08,722
the scene for you here. Miami Beach and Miami are separated by Biscayne Bay. And in the middle of

765
01:07:08,722 --> 01:07:16,202
Biscayne Bay, there are some islands. And a couple of those islands are big enough to actually be

766
01:07:16,202 --> 01:07:24,502
occupied and even big enough to be occupied with a town. I mean, there is a going up the 127th

767
01:07:24,502 --> 01:07:29,962
street causeway from Miami to Miami beach. You cross over one bridge onto an island, you go

768
01:07:29,962 --> 01:07:36,422
through the island, and then you cross over another bridge to Miami beach. This particular town

769
01:07:36,422 --> 01:07:46,902
is mostly Jewish. And they have their own little police force. And this two guys,

770
01:07:47,482 --> 01:07:52,502
we didn't know it was two guys, but this, I'll start with the police officer. The police officer

771
01:07:52,502 --> 01:07:56,322
is at two o'clock in the morning,

772
01:07:56,962 --> 01:08:01,862
sees a young black man driving a Cadillac Eldorado

773
01:08:01,862 --> 01:08:06,122
through this Jewish town at two o'clock in the morning.

774
01:08:06,842 --> 01:08:09,842
And he goes, hmm, I don't seem right.

775
01:08:10,282 --> 01:08:13,202
So he stops the car, right?

776
01:08:13,822 --> 01:08:17,502
And he goes walking up and he looks at the guy

777
01:08:17,502 --> 01:08:18,942
and the guy rolls down his window

778
01:08:18,942 --> 01:08:22,142
and the guy is very nervous.

779
01:08:22,502 --> 01:08:28,122
and he's sweating, and he looks in the back seat,

780
01:08:28,262 --> 01:08:31,102
and he sees a bunch of personal property back there,

781
01:08:31,262 --> 01:08:36,982
like jewelry boxes and televisions and stuff like that.

782
01:08:38,242 --> 01:08:52,232
So he gets the guy out of the car and starts asking him some questions and the questions that he asked were not consistent So he calls in the license tag

783
01:08:53,332 --> 01:08:56,472
Then at that point, he calls in the license tag.

784
01:08:56,772 --> 01:08:58,872
He stops the car first, calls in the license tag,

785
01:08:59,232 --> 01:09:01,712
comes back to a house on the island.

786
01:09:02,672 --> 01:09:05,752
So another squad car goes over to the house,

787
01:09:06,272 --> 01:09:11,492
elderly man and his wife hogtied and executed in their bedroom.

788
01:09:11,492 --> 01:09:22,172
house ransacked. This is their car with their stuff in it. His fingerprints all over the house.

789
01:09:22,892 --> 01:09:26,172
All right. Let me guess. I didn't have the proper PC to pull him over.

790
01:09:27,312 --> 01:09:32,912
Yeah. All the cop had to do. Now I'm the prosecutor who gets the case. I'm the DA who gets the case.

791
01:09:33,132 --> 01:09:39,272
The cop comes in and he tells me, and I say, well, why did you stop him? He says, well,

792
01:09:39,272 --> 01:09:43,772
I mean, the black kid driving a Cadillac in the middle of a Jewish town.

793
01:09:47,752 --> 01:09:48,232
Okay.

794
01:09:48,792 --> 01:09:50,532
Well, I heard it.

795
01:09:50,692 --> 01:09:51,512
Now I know.

796
01:09:51,932 --> 01:09:54,812
If the cop came in and said he had a busted taillight,

797
01:09:54,852 --> 01:09:57,372
or if he took his baton and busted the taillight,

798
01:09:57,632 --> 01:09:58,752
it would have been all good.

799
01:09:59,132 --> 01:10:00,712
He had a license plate light that was out.

800
01:10:01,812 --> 01:10:02,492
That's it.

801
01:10:02,712 --> 01:10:03,712
That's all we needed.

802
01:10:03,892 --> 01:10:04,332
But no.

803
01:10:04,332 --> 01:10:11,412
So I had the job of calling in the family and telling them that we weren't going to file the case.

804
01:10:12,172 --> 01:10:12,812
Wow.

805
01:10:13,632 --> 01:10:19,672
Their mom and dad had been executed and we were not going to file the case.

806
01:10:19,992 --> 01:10:20,732
That's crazy.

807
01:10:21,092 --> 01:10:21,932
It all fell.

808
01:10:22,192 --> 01:10:23,272
It all fell.

809
01:10:23,432 --> 01:10:26,072
Everything fell because it was all fruit of the poison tree.

810
01:10:26,532 --> 01:10:26,892
Yeah.

811
01:10:26,892 --> 01:10:44,572
The fun and upside of the story is that the other guy, his compatriot, he jumped in and took all the jewels and he just stuffed them in his pocket and swam across the little creek to get to Miami Beach.

812
01:10:45,632 --> 01:10:54,612
And so he got away clean, but he was pawning the jewels and bragging about it and he got reported.

813
01:10:54,612 --> 01:11:03,472
and so we got him clean and what we took we took all the evidence from the poisonous tree and we

814
01:11:03,472 --> 01:11:11,032
boxed it and sealed it so that was out we couldn't say that so this guy was completely independently

815
01:11:11,032 --> 01:11:18,732
located and when we got him and we got the jewel and the jewel was identified he rolled over on

816
01:11:18,732 --> 01:11:24,572
this guy and when he rolled over on this guy we went out and rearrested this guy so we got to him

817
01:11:24,572 --> 01:11:29,432
clean. But that was one of the most difficult things that I ever had to do.

818
01:11:30,352 --> 01:11:40,012
So we haven't really touched on this one little aspect is you were, you were also a master's

819
01:11:40,012 --> 01:11:52,872
of social work. Yeah. Okay. Why? What? I mean. Okay. So after studying, you know, years with

820
01:11:52,872 --> 01:12:00,312
Master Knee, when I got to North Carolina, it was like, you know, all these forces conflated into

821
01:12:00,312 --> 01:12:09,492
this, who am I going to be now? You know, it was getting here was forced. But once I got here,

822
01:12:09,732 --> 01:12:16,592
I kind of recognized, you know, this is really a gift because I'm being given the ability to

823
01:12:16,592 --> 01:12:24,592
recreate my life from scratch. At 40 years of age, having learned everything that I've learned,

824
01:12:24,792 --> 01:12:33,012
I get to start over like 100%. So I got a job in this Alamance County and this small DA's office.

825
01:12:33,012 --> 01:12:42,372
We had five DA's instead of 125. And there's a lot of funny stories about acclimating to North

826
01:12:42,372 --> 01:12:52,352
Carolina. Can I tell you one? So they send me over to this. Now, I got to get all the names

827
01:12:52,352 --> 01:12:56,052
right because we're called a county court in Florida and that's called district court here.

828
01:12:56,632 --> 01:13:03,992
And there's no jury and there's no court reporter and there's a judge. And I get up there.

829
01:13:05,212 --> 01:13:10,552
Steve Balog, my boss, the DA, he says, well, Bob, go over and handle district court today.

830
01:13:10,552 --> 01:13:14,192
And I go, okay.

831
01:13:14,972 --> 01:13:19,152
So I walk over to district court and I say, where are the files?

832
01:13:19,972 --> 01:13:21,852
And the lady said, you mean the shucks?

833
01:13:23,752 --> 01:13:24,512
The shucks?

834
01:13:24,712 --> 01:13:26,632
I said, yes, ma'am, the shucks.

835
01:13:27,012 --> 01:13:29,212
She goes, well, you got to go down to the office, get the shucks.

836
01:13:29,892 --> 01:13:30,752
Oh, okay.

837
01:13:30,972 --> 01:13:32,532
So I go down, I get this box.

838
01:13:32,892 --> 01:13:37,532
A shuck is a file that's folded in thirds and put into a little envelope.

839
01:13:37,992 --> 01:13:39,512
So it looks like a letter.

840
01:13:40,552 --> 01:13:45,912
So I get the shucks and I'm pulling them out and we got a judge up there.

841
01:13:45,972 --> 01:13:46,812
His name was Skinny.

842
01:13:48,192 --> 01:13:50,612
Everybody knew him as Skinny, white hair.

843
01:13:51,132 --> 01:13:55,172
And I remember one time I asked, put a witness on the stand and said,

844
01:13:55,232 --> 01:13:57,092
yes, ma'am, could you tell us your name and your age?

845
01:13:57,392 --> 01:14:01,652
And he looks at me and goes, I don't know where you come from,

846
01:14:01,652 --> 01:14:07,812
but Mr. Martin, in this part of the country, we do not ask a woman her age.

847
01:14:10,552 --> 01:14:18,172
So I get this case, and the charge is taking antlerless deer.

848
01:14:19,252 --> 01:14:19,972
Yeah.

849
01:14:20,132 --> 01:14:23,912
Now I'm coming out of Miami with murder cases and stuff like that.

850
01:14:24,152 --> 01:14:25,672
Taking antlerless deer.

851
01:14:26,252 --> 01:14:30,112
So I'm figuring, well, taking probably is in the biblical sense.

852
01:14:30,812 --> 01:14:35,992
So I got to prove that this guy killed a deer that didn't have antlers.

853
01:14:36,352 --> 01:14:37,612
Okay, I can do this.

854
01:14:37,612 --> 01:14:38,252
All right, good.

855
01:14:38,252 --> 01:14:41,952
put the wildlife guy up on the stand.

856
01:14:42,252 --> 01:14:43,732
Yes, sir, and what'd you do?

857
01:14:44,692 --> 01:14:52,052
We got the report of the reports and went down there,

858
01:14:52,172 --> 01:14:56,212
and that's when I saw the snow and the truck was parked

859
01:14:56,212 --> 01:14:59,492
and there was some footprints coming out of the truck,

860
01:14:59,552 --> 01:15:03,852
so I followed the footprints, and then I saw some blood in the snow.

861
01:15:03,852 --> 01:15:06,652
I followed the snow back into the forest,

862
01:15:06,652 --> 01:15:09,072
And that's when I found the dead doe deer.

863
01:15:10,652 --> 01:15:13,792
And I looked over to him and said, yes, sir.

864
01:15:13,892 --> 01:15:18,132
And knowing that I had to prove that it was a deer with no antlers, I said, yes, sir.

865
01:15:18,172 --> 01:15:20,012
And was it antlerless?

866
01:15:22,132 --> 01:15:25,292
And the whole courtroom cracks up laughing, of course, you know.

867
01:15:25,752 --> 01:15:27,552
And I don't know why they're laughing.

868
01:15:27,752 --> 01:15:32,192
And the wildlife guy leans down and he looks over at me and goes, yes, sir.

869
01:15:32,632 --> 01:15:36,132
That doe deer didn't have no antlers.

870
01:15:36,652 --> 01:15:47,052
everyone's like yeah bailiff comes over you know those those don't have the antlers

871
01:15:47,052 --> 01:15:55,052
yeah that's that's definitely a big difference no question about it

872
01:15:55,052 --> 01:16:02,032
but to answer your question uh when i got up here i practiced for a couple years

873
01:16:02,032 --> 01:16:08,492
and then I went out again into private practice.

874
01:16:09,892 --> 01:16:15,472
But after a couple of years, I just saw in a small town,

875
01:16:15,932 --> 01:16:18,232
in Miami, you never see anybody again

876
01:16:18,232 --> 01:16:24,472
because 125 DAs, you don't see people rotating through.

877
01:16:25,012 --> 01:16:26,032
In a small town, you do.

878
01:16:26,732 --> 01:16:30,792
So you would see somebody that you prosecuted last year.

879
01:16:30,792 --> 01:16:32,852
Now you're, comes to you as a defense attorney.

880
01:16:33,132 --> 01:16:40,772
And I, at that point, Miami was very good to me and I could afford to say, I only want

881
01:16:40,772 --> 01:16:42,032
to take court appointed cases.

882
01:16:42,172 --> 01:16:48,112
They don't pay you very much, but that's what I devoted myself to is just representing the

883
01:16:48,112 --> 01:16:53,952
indigence and taking care of people who didn't have otherwise access to the court.

884
01:16:53,952 --> 01:17:00,952
And I started noticing the rotating door.

885
01:17:00,952 --> 01:17:12,522
And like you guys feel it became very obvious to me that the system as it constructed just doesn work

886
01:17:14,262 --> 01:17:18,602
And so I decided maybe I need a change of careers.

887
01:17:18,762 --> 01:17:19,882
Maybe I'm a different person.

888
01:17:20,262 --> 01:17:21,862
So I closed the office.

889
01:17:22,022 --> 01:17:24,942
I went to become a social worker.

890
01:17:24,942 --> 01:17:30,162
And you would be surprised that I think inside of every social worker is the desire to be a lawyer.

891
01:17:30,562 --> 01:17:33,702
And inside many lawyers is a desire to be a social worker.

892
01:17:33,802 --> 01:17:40,862
It's a, they're two very similar things that because social work is very fact or, you know,

893
01:17:40,862 --> 01:17:45,122
you have your case, you have the situation, what's the situation, what are the needs?

894
01:17:45,182 --> 01:17:49,302
You catalog those things, you know, if you do it in the appropriate way and it's very

895
01:17:49,302 --> 01:17:54,122
lawyer-like in a way, but it has that heart that's associated to it.

896
01:17:54,122 --> 01:18:18,762
So I graduated and I went out to work first in, at that time, the mental health system was concentrated in a single, it was called the Mental Health Developmental Disability and Substance Abuse Authority.

897
01:18:18,762 --> 01:18:30,442
It was concentrated in one hospital and everybody that was in mental health was there and it was a government agency and it was great.

898
01:18:30,762 --> 01:18:31,702
It was terrific.

899
01:18:31,842 --> 01:18:34,342
There were mentors and the best of the best.

900
01:18:34,962 --> 01:18:43,922
But then people started screaming about, you know, we need to have free enterprise and we need to open it up to have a menu.

901
01:18:43,922 --> 01:18:48,722
Anyway, there was mental health reform and everything went out into agency.

902
01:18:48,762 --> 01:18:55,242
and I went out into a private agency and all they cared about was billable hours.

903
01:18:56,042 --> 01:18:58,662
And I said, this is just not fun.

904
01:18:58,902 --> 01:19:06,442
So I opened up my law office, but I opened it up with a commitment to this,

905
01:19:08,262 --> 01:19:12,482
that when a client came to me that's charged with a crime,

906
01:19:12,802 --> 01:19:18,362
who is probably on the very edge of existence, not knowing how his life is going to go,

907
01:19:18,362 --> 01:19:28,002
when he left me, he would be certain that he's been heard, that somebody listened to him,

908
01:19:28,702 --> 01:19:35,942
that somebody was on his side and stood up for him, and that no matter what happened to him,

909
01:19:35,982 --> 01:19:43,242
if he went to jail or got on probation or whatever else, that he understood why what was happening to

910
01:19:43,242 --> 01:19:48,382
him was happening to him, even if it wasn't fair, he would understand why it wasn't fair.

911
01:19:49,122 --> 01:19:50,482
I feel that's important.

912
01:19:51,282 --> 01:19:56,062
That's important because sometimes things can't be fair because of the numbers.

913
01:19:57,102 --> 01:20:06,922
He would understand that. That's how I practiced after that. One of the great joys of my life is

914
01:20:06,922 --> 01:20:10,802
many of those folks stopped going through that cycle.

915
01:20:11,042 --> 01:20:15,442
And even today, I'll be walking down the street and somebody will say,

916
01:20:15,642 --> 01:20:17,062
you're Mr. Martin, aren't you?

917
01:20:17,422 --> 01:20:19,002
I say, yeah, yes, I am.

918
01:20:19,002 --> 01:20:24,942
You represented me back in 1989 and 2014.

919
01:20:25,782 --> 01:20:28,262
I want to tell you, I've never been in trouble since.

920
01:20:29,402 --> 01:20:31,602
And that's one of the great joys of my life.

921
01:20:32,502 --> 01:20:32,982
That's awesome.

922
01:20:33,802 --> 01:20:35,762
That is really awesome.

923
01:20:36,922 --> 01:20:59,202
All right. Well, I think we're probably, that's, that's a good story to end on. I like that. It's a good, happy feely type of a story. So one of the things we like to, you know, give our guests the opportunity to do is to shout out someone that had a lasting and impactful, meaningful, you know, impact on their life. Right.

924
01:20:59,202 --> 01:21:01,842
But this could be anyone.

925
01:21:01,982 --> 01:21:06,522
It could be an author, historical figure, sixth grade science teacher, you name it.

926
01:21:06,702 --> 01:21:08,562
So who would you like to shout out?

927
01:21:10,762 --> 01:21:21,322
Well, I can't not say my dad, and I can't not say Master Watching Me.

928
01:21:21,322 --> 01:21:30,082
but the person that I would like to shout out is my eighth grade English teacher, Mr. Giese.

929
01:21:31,442 --> 01:21:37,662
And I still don't know why, and unfortunately he's passed so I can't ask him,

930
01:21:38,442 --> 01:21:44,202
but there was this moment, now that I'm retired, I write. I've written a couple of books,

931
01:21:44,202 --> 01:21:48,242
I write a blog and I write and I love writing.

932
01:21:48,722 --> 01:21:52,442
And there was a time once when Mr.

933
01:21:52,522 --> 01:21:58,642
Giese had given us an essay to write and I was sitting in the class and I was

934
01:21:58,642 --> 01:22:03,482
kind of a fat bully, ugly little kid.

935
01:22:04,262 --> 01:22:08,022
And, um, and he held up my paper and he goes,

936
01:22:08,262 --> 01:22:12,422
now if y'all could write like, like they all called us by lesson.

937
01:22:12,422 --> 01:22:15,082
If you could write like Martin over there, you'd be doing great.

938
01:22:15,402 --> 01:22:17,642
This guy, he held it up.

939
01:22:17,682 --> 01:22:28,262
He said he can make a dirty backyard French garbage infested alley seem like a beautiful place.

940
01:22:30,722 --> 01:22:31,682
Very cool.

941
01:22:31,902 --> 01:22:37,462
And that just shifted something in me.

942
01:22:38,622 --> 01:22:39,802
That is awesome.

943
01:22:39,802 --> 01:22:44,622
I love hearing about who people shout out.

944
01:22:44,742 --> 01:22:48,322
I think it's really an enjoyable experience for me.

945
01:22:49,022 --> 01:22:51,202
All right, so where can people find you?

946
01:22:51,322 --> 01:22:52,502
What do you got going on?

947
01:22:52,622 --> 01:22:53,682
What are you working on?

948
01:22:55,262 --> 01:22:59,582
Well, you know, besides loving my wife and loving my dogs,

949
01:23:01,402 --> 01:23:04,702
my wife sometimes gets a little jealous.

950
01:23:07,702 --> 01:23:09,182
Dogs getting all the love.

951
01:23:09,182 --> 01:23:27,182
They do. And teaching at the university and teaching meditation. Besides all that, I write and I do a blog and I do a podcast and I do a vlog, YouTube things.

952
01:23:27,182 --> 01:23:30,682
And it's all under the name of The Flow.

953
01:23:31,582 --> 01:23:39,402
And I'm about to launch a website, which is going to be at theflowmedia.com.

954
01:23:39,722 --> 01:23:41,782
All one word, theflowmedia.com.

955
01:23:41,902 --> 01:23:47,842
And that'll have links to the blog and to the YouTube channel and everything on it.

956
01:23:47,882 --> 01:23:49,962
So you can just go there and find everything.

957
01:23:50,882 --> 01:23:51,182
Awesome.

958
01:23:51,662 --> 01:23:52,762
So you heard the man.

959
01:23:53,142 --> 01:23:53,902
Go look him up.

960
01:23:54,282 --> 01:23:55,362
Search for The Flow.

961
01:23:56,202 --> 01:23:56,962
Check him out.

962
01:23:57,182 --> 01:23:57,902
Give them a so.

963
01:23:57,922 --> 01:23:58,702
Because you know why?

964
01:23:59,902 --> 01:24:02,882
In order to go with the flow, you got to understand the flow.

965
01:24:03,882 --> 01:24:05,082
It's probably true.

966
01:24:05,902 --> 01:24:07,402
Know the flow to go with the flow.

967
01:24:07,662 --> 01:24:09,322
You got to know the flow to go with the flow.

968
01:24:10,222 --> 01:24:10,662
All right.

969
01:24:11,522 --> 01:24:14,082
Well, thank you very much for giving us some of your time.

970
01:24:14,202 --> 01:24:15,422
I really appreciate it.

971
01:24:15,622 --> 01:24:17,602
And this was a wonderful session.

972
01:24:18,022 --> 01:24:21,322
And thank you for giving us some of your time as well.

973
01:24:21,902 --> 01:24:22,942
You know where to find us.

974
01:24:23,002 --> 01:24:23,502
We're everywhere.

975
01:24:23,782 --> 01:24:26,102
We're now hosted off of Fountain.fm.

976
01:24:26,702 --> 01:24:27,782
Go check us out.

977
01:24:28,902 --> 01:24:29,942
See what you think.

978
01:24:30,782 --> 01:24:33,582
As always, if you liked us, give us a thumbs up.

979
01:24:33,842 --> 01:24:35,322
If you didn't, give us a thumbs down.

980
01:24:35,662 --> 01:24:36,282
Leave us a comment.

981
01:24:36,602 --> 01:24:37,282
Tell us we suck.

982
01:24:37,482 --> 01:24:38,382
Tell us you loved us.

983
01:24:38,962 --> 01:24:39,322
Whatever.

984
01:24:39,622 --> 01:24:40,862
We'll respond either way.

985
01:24:40,862 --> 01:24:45,882
If you have an idea for a show, topic, or a guest, throw that in the comments.

986
01:24:46,042 --> 01:24:46,602
We'll respond.

987
01:24:46,722 --> 01:24:47,982
We'll see what we can make happen.

988
01:24:47,982 --> 01:24:56,662
And remember, wherever you are, whenever you're watching this, have an amazing day.

989
01:24:58,082 --> 01:25:00,602
Everybody, maybe next time, jury nullification.

990
01:25:01,402 --> 01:25:02,122
I didn't say that.

991
01:25:02,562 --> 01:25:03,122
Ah, yeah.

992
01:25:03,222 --> 01:25:03,982
Jury nullification.

993
01:25:05,002 --> 01:25:07,482
One of my favorite legal topics.

994
01:25:17,982 --> 01:25:29,742
We'll see you next time.