Eric Robinson from Preacher to Breacher, Ex-Pastor’s Irreverent FBI Adventures S2-EP21

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And I talked to my buddy the other day.

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I was like, hey, how's the operations been going?

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He goes, oh, my gosh.

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Like, literal basement was just flooded with feces.

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And we had to go down and rescue the drones.

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And he says we were, like, taking buckets and, like, playing the floor as lava, except the floor was poop.

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And, you know, like, trying to go through and, like, pick.

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all right everybody welcome back to another episode of the space tomatoes podcast i'm one

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of your hosts havoc i'm the other guy lx not a fed promise also not a fed

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We all have three.

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All three have something in common, at least now.

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Today, we're joined by a guest, Eric Robinson, a recently retired Federal Bureau of Investigation agent who left his role as a pastor after 12 years to become an FBI agent.

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Welcome to the show, Eric.

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Thanks for having me there, guys.

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Used to be a Fed.

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No longer a Fed.

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Friends with Feds, though.

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Yeah.

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You wouldn't have to tell us if we asked anyway, right?

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Actually, there are rules about that.

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So depending on – I mean this is absolutely not something I expected that we would talk about.

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But we have rules within our manual of when you can and can't hide your role as an FBI agent, which is interesting.

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I didn't think I'd be asked that.

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Wow.

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I just – I guess I just thought that they could lie as much as they wanted to.

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It depends on the circumstances and what your role is.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So I guess, you know, my first question, the obvious one, right?

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How do you look so young at this age?

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Yeah.

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Oh, no.

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Yeah, exactly.

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How do you look so young when you're now?

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How do you go from, you know, over a decade?

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Was it 12 years as a pastor?

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And then what is the impetus that says, I want to be an FBI agent and transition from a pastoral role into that role?

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Yeah, I was in my late 20s, early 30s, and I thought I'd be doing this for another 50 years because you can preach when you're 80 years old.

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That's fine. It's not heavy lifting.

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But the issue that I had as we were in Western New York and along with a core group of Christians, we had planted a church that was meant to be one for outreach.

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So we want I told these folks, if you want to be a part of this, we're going to make mistakes on the side of showing too much grace to people, of being nonjudgmental.

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So if people come, you got to be able to accept them if they're not wearing church clothes.

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if they've got weird tattoos or piercings, you know, what if they smell like alcohol?

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Like we need to make sure that people coming in don't feel judged.

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And we did really well.

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And we're bringing in folks who hadn't been to church before and didn't grow up in that life.

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However, one of the issues with that is people who don't grow up in church,

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sometimes they have life problems.

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And so they brought their life problems with them.

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And I found myself not capable of separating my life from theirs where when they brought me burdens, I held on to those things.

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So because of that, for two straight years, every single day, I had stress-related headaches.

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So wake up in the morning and I knew it was going to come and here comes a headache.

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So there just came a point where I had to find something else to do, even though we were successful, even though I was doing what I really enjoyed.

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I couldn't do it anymore.

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So I told my wife, I need to find a job with less stress.

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And so I joined the FBI.

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So was this was this forgive me if this is a little more personal and I certainly don't want to, you know, you know, break any of those bonds.

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I feel that those need to be respected.

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But was this more of a, you know, testimonial, confessional type of a thing that was causing the problem?

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No, it was, I mean, in some cases, but it was just people saying, I've got, you know, my wife's cheating on me.

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And, you know, my kid might be developing a drug problem.

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Um, we had one of our worship leaders and this guy was a good friend of mine.

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Uh, he had a mental breakdown and then started going online and met another woman and left

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his wife.

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And, you know, that's, that was a burden to me because it was, this is someone I cared

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about.

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Whereas in law enforcement, there's plenty of times things don't go the way I want them

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to.

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And ultimately, I don't care that much.

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Bad guys get away.

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Okay.

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And, you know, that'll happen.

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And it didn't affect me in the same way that these people that I should care about then affected me long term.

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It's always been a struggle.

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I think it's a struggle for a lot of people.

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It's interesting to hear this as being a struggle from someone that was in a pastoral role.

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is, is, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people get turned off from the church, whatever that may be for them, not because of the teachings, not because of the, the, you know, the, the leadership at the church, but because of the other people at church.

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And that's it's always been something that I always kind of, you know, had to struggle with myself.

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And I'm also one of those, you know, walk in and T-shirts and jeans and, you know, I figure if the good Lord can make his disciples to wear sackcloth, I'm certainly no better than one of them.

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So, you know, if that's an acceptable form of garb, then I think I'm OK.

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Yeah, this was a Baptist church as well. And so the one that we had been planted off of was the kind where if you didn't wear a tie, you should be explaining why you're not wearing a tie because Jesus wants you in a suit and tie.

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And there's some of those silly add-ons that are there.

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Like I remember playing Uno with some of the kids in the youth group.

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And, you know, the old ladies coming by.

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So I never thought I'd see people playing cards at church function.

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I'm like, it's not strip Uno.

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It's not like whenever you color, you know, you reverse to red, you have to take a drink.

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It's a simple game.

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Yeah, as someone that lives in the South, Southern Baptist is quite interesting. Even if you point to the fact that there are definitive verses in scripture that basically admonish peacocking, right?

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Yeah. Dressing up in gold and jewelry and all of that stuff is is not considered. But anyway, so so you're writing a book about your experience in the FBI. I guess my first question on that, I like to ask authors is, you know, was this was this difficult for you? Or is this just something that is flowing or has flowed for you? What's that process look like for you?

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flowing. What I did was to write about some of the cases that I was a part of investigations,

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whether I initiated them or I played a role in them. And just like it happens with FBI agents,

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I just got to hang out with some of my buddies. I'm three months retired

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and the SWAT team is hosting tryouts. And so I got to go out and see them. And

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immediately people are telling stories. So whenever there's open time where you're

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waiting on a dope dealer to show up or it's after an operation, a search warrant. People tell

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stories. And so this was natural. This is what, this is what folks do anyway. I was just writing

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it on the computer. And so, yeah, sitting down, I thought, oh, hey, let me tell the story about

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the time I did this. Oh yeah, right. And then there was that time I did this and oh, the guy

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on our squad arrested. Oh, there was that one weekend where we had two cases culminate,

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where we arrested two sets of mass shooters before they attacked people. You know,

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the two biggest cases on our squad, and they went back to back from one day to the next. So,

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just remembering so many of those occasions that for us was like, yeah, this is the case we did.

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This is, you know, a Tuesday.

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And yet I also know it's pretty cool.

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It was, it's like you tell somebody that story and you take the time to go in depth and people think that's amazing.

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So most of my days, you know, in the FBI, tedious, doing garbage things, you know, having to take silly online classes for bloodborne pathogens or something.

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And then there's those, you know, occasions here and there.

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so if you just compress all that and say hey let me tell that story in a fascinating way and leave

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out all the times the uh computer went down turns out it's pretty cool interesting did you uh i

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probably watched too much tv because uh yeah it's all fun and games on there i'm sure in the movies

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oh wait i'm sure it's much different in real life and we had fun in games uh there's you know we we

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plenty of jokes there's time for being serious when the public's looking and then there's

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plenty of other times where you know we're pulling pranks on each other and and uh making

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light of each other but yeah that my youngest likes to watch criminal criminal minds and so

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when she would put it on she would say you get five complaints and then you have to shut up

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And I usually run out of those in the first couple of minutes.

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I'm sure.

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Yeah.

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Hollywood doesn't always do a great job of,

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of really driving the reality of things home.

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Well,

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even to the point where we watch it and like one of the guys has a revolver.

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I'm like,

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no FBI agent can,

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you're not allowed to have a revolver.

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So.

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Okay.

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All right.

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I had no idea on that one.

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I think regular law enforcement still can, but most don't.

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Yeah, it depends on where you are.

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There's some places where you have to bring your own gun because they don't have a budget.

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Okay.

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I didn't know that either.

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Yeah, for us, when I got in in 2002, there were still a couple of agents in the Chicago Division who had their revolvers.

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And it got to a point where the types of weapons that you could have was narrowed and narrowed until it came down to it's all Glock and just a couple of handguns because they just want to streamline what the gunsmiths have to work on.

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like this gun, that gun, or that gun, and all Glock.

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And then just one type of rifle, too, now.

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Oh, really?

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Makes sense.

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Just out of curiosity, what rifle is that?

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It's either a Colt or a Rock River AR-15.

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Okay.

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Interesting.

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Just makes it easy for the gunsmiths.

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Did you did you add in any of the minutiae and doldrums into your book?

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I imagine there's about 10 seconds of of adrenaline and and about seven hours, 59 minutes and 50 seconds of paperwork and stuff.

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Yes, that is when I was working in Chicago.

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That was my first office.

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I'm getting adjusted to a new life in law enforcement.

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And my wife would often say, oh, let me know when you guys are successful and you arrest the guy.

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I'm so worried that you're going to be safe.

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I'm like, if I die by any means in Chicago, it's going to be a car accident.

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And we're sitting on these dope dealers.

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and it would be like this is me sitting in my car you know turned like this because i'm looking down

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that way you know for five hours before anything moves with my back killing me or my neck hurting

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and you know you try to switch and then you get on the radio and say hey can somebody else take

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the eye because i i gotta walk around a bit so somebody pulls into your spot and then the guy

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leaves like at 5 p.m finally and all of a sudden the adrenaline goes straight up and you're chasing

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to catch up in a busy city.

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So you don't use like the cable box van

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so you all get comfy cozy chairs

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and monitors and listening stuff?

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We have, but not often

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because we'll be sitting on a guy.

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We're probably tapped into his phone

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and so whoever's sitting on the phone tap

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is going to have a radio

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and tell us what's being said

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and then everybody else out on the street

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is now following in case he's going to

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meet up with a supplier or a buyer and now we can videotape that connection maybe we'll have the

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local police knock down the guy after he buys from him and then we can take the drugs from him and let

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him go call it a rip and then we can preserve the phone tap while these guys think there's just dirty

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cops involved so yeah a lot of nothing and then all of a sudden very exciting so you said rip

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I don't know if that's terminology or.

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Yeah.

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So what we would often do is if we if we know that there's going to be a drug buy or sale going on, whether it's an informant or, you know, we know from the phone that this seller is going to go to this buyer.

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We would be set up then that once the sale gets done, we'd follow the drugs away in that vehicle.

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We'd have the police pull them over.

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you know, see if they're compliant. And then when they're stopped, they just take the drugs.

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We'll do a search, take the drugs. It's just, it's all police. It's not, not FBI. And then

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they take that away and they just say, you're free to go. And so the guy just thinks it's dirty cops.

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So now we have drug evidence that we'll charge these guys with later. We'll preserve the phone

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tap because they just think some dirty cop got lucky.

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They don't think somebody is listening to their phone.

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And that's why we know that happened.

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And now we have evidence of how their words on the phone about drug sales are true because

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we're holding a kilogram of cocaine in our hands.

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That's a big amount, I think.

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I'm guessing the CIs, the informants have quite a bit to do with catching.

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some of these people uh how does it how do you build a relationship with someone like that because

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i'm sure it's a lot of uh i mean do they come to you or you catch them on something and you kind of

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say hey if you help us out we'll give you a deal yeah in this scenario it's almost always we caught

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them you know it will be local police saying hey we got this guy he says he's going to work off his

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time and he can buy from his guy again so some some low-level dude who will then buy from the

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next level up. Well, once we get a buy off of him, we'll be recording a phone call from that

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informant, that newly turned informant to his supplier. And then when that guy talks, now we

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will often write what's known as a title three, which is a wiretap. It's called title three.

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It's from the, uh, I forget what year it was, the omnibus crime bill, but it was title three from

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that and so now we're going to go up on that phone because we have dirty talk on the phone of the

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supplier so now we're hooked up to him now we're waiting for him to go after his supplier and we'll

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take that all the way to the border pass it on to el paso or mcallen texas and now they're up on

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the cartels does it ever not work out well for these people that turn snitches i never saw guys

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getting killed because of that because if the i mean it's it's like anything else if if they think

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you're a snitch they're just gonna walk away and i would have that discussion with other informants

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like yeah but what if they find out i'm a snitch i'm like dude's gonna act really weird and say

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i don't want drugs why would you think i have drugs because if they think you're the police

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they know they're going to get hammered if they harm them.

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Right.

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That's interesting too.

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00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,940
That kind of breaks down one of the Hollywood theories right there.

214
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:17,740
Not always.

215
00:18:17,740 --> 00:18:20,380
Obviously you get into the cartel territory

216
00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:22,840
and that's a whole different ballgame.

217
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,140
Because then they keep you around if they think you're a snitch

218
00:18:27,140 --> 00:18:29,200
and then they go round up your family

219
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,960
and now we're going to extract the confession from you.

220
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:33,620
Right.

221
00:18:33,620 --> 00:18:45,200
And so when we were working high volume drug sale dealers in Chicago, part of our administrative process is we had to connect them to a cartel.

222
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,100
And often that was just like, you know, it was internal and it didn't matter legally.

223
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:56,020
So we just like look at some phone connections and go, OK, that calls this guy who's connected to this cartel.

224
00:18:56,140 --> 00:18:58,560
So, boom, Sinaloa, we'll call it Sinaloa.

225
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:04,260
but we'd arrest these guys and we're like oh so like what cartel do you belong to and guys like

226
00:19:04,260 --> 00:19:10,460
i i don't know i buy from a guy named charlie out of st louis who brings it in from a guy down and

227
00:19:10,460 --> 00:19:15,520
you know and who knows who he gets it from but i know that charlie always brings me my dope

228
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:23,760
do you so do you i guess how many of your

229
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:32,860
how many of the the people that you've done interrogations on would you say were were

230
00:19:32,860 --> 00:19:42,000
more open about that as opposed to completely blocked off and opposed and just shut it down

231
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:51,420
so give me a lawyer yeah so i i'm almost well i i can't say almost always i'm very often

232
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:59,840
would get past them wanting a lawyer because they, if you're being arrested, you want to

233
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,980
make some sense of what's going on. And I would play that up. So once you're arrested,

234
00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:12,500
I'm going to treat you nice, but also I'll tell you that if you want an opportunity to understand

235
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:18,980
what your situation is, there's going to have to be some talking back and forth. Well, in order for

236
00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:25,140
me to be able to do that with you, I need you to waive your rights. You can refuse to answer

237
00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:30,220
anything I ask you. That's fine. And I'm affirming this that, look, if you want to stop talking,

238
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:36,600
you can stop talking. If you want to not answer my questions, I just ask you to not lie to me,

239
00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:42,940
but instead say I'd rather not answer that. But nobody do that because once we're talking,

240
00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:44,460
It's rude to say that.

241
00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:58,338
I mean it just seems stupid But here a guy who looking at prison time But if you bring it to a situation where it seems like it normal conversation they don want to be rude

242
00:20:58,818 --> 00:21:03,618
And so naturally, they're going to keep talking, even though they shouldn't be telling you something.

243
00:21:03,978 --> 00:21:07,218
And even though I've told them, like, hey, you can stop whenever you want.

244
00:21:08,058 --> 00:21:10,358
You can not answer my questions.

245
00:21:10,358 --> 00:21:18,398
most people want to gain some type of control over the situation and i'm offering like look man the

246
00:21:18,398 --> 00:21:23,758
only way you're going to gain some sort of control is for you to answer some of my questions while i

247
00:21:23,758 --> 00:21:28,878
answer whatever you have too and that's when i lay out the case and most of them start talking

248
00:21:28,878 --> 00:21:35,978
but to straight answer your question gang members in chicago yeah those those are the ones they've

249
00:21:35,978 --> 00:21:40,698
had enough run-ins with the cops where it didn't matter they're not you know they're not talking

250
00:21:40,698 --> 00:21:49,318
interesting i'm sure the more experienced ones know just to shut up and ask for a lawyer and

251
00:21:49,318 --> 00:21:55,038
well the the newer guys probably have more of a chance of yeah keeping their their yaps going

252
00:21:55,038 --> 00:22:03,418
what's funny is like even the gang members would talk they just had zero value like one guy you

253
00:22:03,418 --> 00:22:11,258
I'm playing cuts from the phone tap we had where he's saying like, yeah, can I get four and a half of the white things?

254
00:22:11,818 --> 00:22:15,318
And he's like, well, which was ounces of crack.

255
00:22:15,898 --> 00:22:22,518
And he's like trying to explain to me like, no, man, I wanted four and a half of them white T-shirts that I was going to resell.

256
00:22:22,938 --> 00:22:24,398
I got half a one.

257
00:22:24,478 --> 00:22:25,638
You want a half a T-shirt?

258
00:22:25,878 --> 00:22:26,798
I don't understand.

259
00:22:26,998 --> 00:22:29,718
Like Brian Bosworth cut off here.

260
00:22:30,018 --> 00:22:31,398
Maurice Claret, I guess.

261
00:22:31,458 --> 00:22:31,778
I don't know.

262
00:22:31,778 --> 00:22:36,938
so you know so they they just waste your time and see what they can get out of you

263
00:22:36,938 --> 00:22:41,598
but the worst one i ever had was we did this huge gang round up in chicago

264
00:22:41,598 --> 00:22:48,618
and so i figure i pick up this guy gang member named dorian and i remember his name very well

265
00:22:48,618 --> 00:22:54,938
so i'm like well i'm gonna start from the beginning so i had a photograph blown up and it was it was

266
00:22:54,938 --> 00:23:00,698
this and it came from a pin camera from the informant so it's just you know boom i took that

267
00:23:00,698 --> 00:23:06,298
still shot i go let me start with this and i slid it over him i can you identify this guy

268
00:23:06,298 --> 00:23:15,658
and he says i don't know i go well it's you obviously and i said like over your shoulder

269
00:23:15,658 --> 00:23:22,618
you can see the address of the building it's like it's 44 25 and like a lot of drivers like

270
00:23:22,618 --> 00:23:30,338
like you you live at 44 25 you know 26th place he's like no i don't like it's right here

271
00:23:30,338 --> 00:23:38,738
and i said look the guy in the picture is wearing a necklace that says doe and you're wearing that

272
00:23:38,738 --> 00:23:46,378
necklace right now he goes no i ain't well i'm not getting anywhere with you then i guess

273
00:23:46,378 --> 00:23:52,798
i've met people like that they could just they they lie and they they'll stick with it too until

274
00:23:52,798 --> 00:23:58,558
the end well yeah i i'm sure you you kind of get adept at picking out whether people are lying to

275
00:23:58,558 --> 00:24:04,238
you or not with experience well yeah and what's nice is like when we're doing the post-arrest

276
00:24:04,238 --> 00:24:09,558
interrogation we're just trying to seal it completely so i have enough we're not coming

277
00:24:09,558 --> 00:24:15,018
to arrest you unless i know i can win the case but like if you confess then we're not even

278
00:24:15,018 --> 00:24:20,098
bothering with the trial so now it's easy but i had this discussion with a guy who was talking

279
00:24:20,098 --> 00:24:25,778
about polygraphs and he was saying like oh i don't think polygraphs work and i said well they do to

280
00:24:25,778 --> 00:24:27,858
a degree, but it's like anything.

281
00:24:27,858 --> 00:24:29,678
Like if I hook you up to a polygraph

282
00:24:29,678 --> 00:24:31,758
and I say, hey man,

283
00:24:31,778 --> 00:24:32,858
when I ask you about

284
00:24:32,858 --> 00:24:35,638
do you know who killed your

285
00:24:35,638 --> 00:24:37,678
neighbor and you said no, it seems

286
00:24:37,678 --> 00:24:39,738
like you're lying. And you could just

287
00:24:39,738 --> 00:24:40,658
go, okay.

288
00:24:41,758 --> 00:24:42,478
I don't care.

289
00:24:43,418 --> 00:24:45,078
I'm telling the truth. And then you can

290
00:24:45,078 --> 00:24:46,778
continue to lie to me.

291
00:24:47,438 --> 00:24:49,578
And then when we're done, you're like, all right.

292
00:24:50,578 --> 00:24:51,678
I don't know

293
00:24:51,678 --> 00:24:52,938
why people confess, but they do.

294
00:24:52,938 --> 00:24:59,458
interesting we we had one guy i think i think some people think they're gonna they're gonna

295
00:24:59,458 --> 00:25:04,018
talk their way out of it somehow well there's a lot i mean the good polygraphers i've got a buddy

296
00:25:04,018 --> 00:25:10,078
who is like they they know how to use that's a tool that's this is something they know how to

297
00:25:10,078 --> 00:25:15,058
use in conjunction with their interrogation skills and so you know i say i don't know why people do

298
00:25:15,058 --> 00:25:21,118
it but i i do and i know how you can get people to there and there's there's a story of a guy who

299
00:25:21,118 --> 00:25:25,638
came in to apply to be an FBI agent. And one of the questions to him was,

300
00:25:25,778 --> 00:25:30,998
is there anything that any way that you've broken a law,

301
00:25:31,598 --> 00:25:34,298
but it hasn't been found out. And he was like,

302
00:25:35,118 --> 00:25:39,138
I've downloaded child porn. It's on my computer.

303
00:25:40,418 --> 00:25:43,798
And I think I would just go, Nope,

304
00:25:43,978 --> 00:25:48,678
I don't need this job that much. But they, then they convinced him to say,

305
00:25:48,678 --> 00:25:51,938
Like, well, we're going to have to see that and confirm it.

306
00:25:51,998 --> 00:25:53,018
So you're going to need to bring it in.

307
00:25:53,118 --> 00:25:55,998
And the next day, like, wow, he's like, yeah, here you go.

308
00:25:56,058 --> 00:25:58,618
Like people think it's a confessional booth.

309
00:25:58,758 --> 00:26:04,218
They think, okay, so between you and me, yeah, I've downloaded a lot of child porn.

310
00:26:04,318 --> 00:26:07,078
But that once I tell you that now, now that's clean, right?

311
00:26:07,098 --> 00:26:08,338
Now I can go to heaven, you know.

312
00:26:09,638 --> 00:26:10,038
Unbelievable.

313
00:26:10,038 --> 00:26:21,498
so going back to kind of the crossover from your your first career i guess yeah uh did you find

314
00:26:21,498 --> 00:26:29,538
yourself having any i guess okay so before that one did you leave the church and

315
00:26:29,538 --> 00:26:39,798
give up on that aspect of your life or is that still something that's alive and well with you

316
00:26:39,798 --> 00:26:47,538
I would say it's alive and well with me as I accept it.

317
00:26:47,758 --> 00:26:50,018
So I did not leave the church.

318
00:26:50,278 --> 00:26:55,518
In fact, I preached on Easter Sunday in 2002.

319
00:26:55,898 --> 00:26:57,478
That was the last time in my church.

320
00:26:57,878 --> 00:27:00,878
Then I was in Quantico, Virginia the next Sunday.

321
00:27:01,418 --> 00:27:06,658
And then the Sunday after that, I was preaching in Quantico, Virginia because they didn't have a chaplain and I was filling in for them.

322
00:27:06,658 --> 00:27:12,518
and then when we got to Chicago, I was part of a church plant there as well to help out,

323
00:27:13,418 --> 00:27:20,138
had been going to church for years, but just circumstances in my life, I have readjusted

324
00:27:20,138 --> 00:27:28,218
my valuation of how my faith works and how the church works, which is fine to get into if you

325
00:27:28,218 --> 00:27:37,098
want, but it's not that exciting. No, the reason I'm asking is going from that to the next question,

326
00:27:37,198 --> 00:27:46,218
right? Interrogation. No, I'm kidding. I would be a terrible interrogator, I think. But so it helps

327
00:27:46,218 --> 00:27:51,838
me with, do I want to ask this next question? But now I think I do is, did you find yourself

328
00:27:51,838 --> 00:27:58,998
coming across moral conundrums, things where you're like, morally, I don't accept this as

329
00:27:58,998 --> 00:28:04,938
being okay, but I need to do it as part of my job role. And if so, how did you handle that? How did

330
00:28:04,938 --> 00:28:12,678
you make that, you know, acceptable and okay? Well, I hope this is boring, but reassuring,

331
00:28:12,678 --> 00:28:22,578
but I never did. Anything that we engaged with in the FBI was signed off, like so many checks up our

332
00:28:22,578 --> 00:28:30,178
own chain, but also ultimately signed off by a judge. And so the most intrusive things we could

333
00:28:30,178 --> 00:28:36,238
do would be, you know, search warrant at your home where now the public knows, you know, all your

334
00:28:36,238 --> 00:28:41,558
neighbors know something's going on or tapping your phone, which is highly intrusive. Like you

335
00:28:41,558 --> 00:28:47,918
think you're just talking freely and however we're listening. And that all felt fine because

336
00:28:47,918 --> 00:28:56,218
authorities had said, I agree, you have the right to do this. And along with that,

337
00:28:56,998 --> 00:29:04,378
the agents that I interacted with were ones who not only wanted to uphold the law,

338
00:29:04,378 --> 00:29:07,678
but would want to do things right.

339
00:29:08,478 --> 00:29:13,118
So there weren't cases that I came across where guys were saying,

340
00:29:13,298 --> 00:29:18,338
well, let's kind of push the envelope here as far as what's right and wrong

341
00:29:18,338 --> 00:29:19,778
and see what we can get done.

342
00:29:20,178 --> 00:29:22,198
We tried to stay – we didn't try.

343
00:29:22,278 --> 00:29:26,138
We stayed within the limits of what is proper to do.

344
00:29:26,138 --> 00:29:29,798
So there are things that we might come across as an opportunity,

345
00:29:29,998 --> 00:29:34,018
but I would have talks with agents like, yeah, I just don't feel right doing that.

346
00:29:34,378 --> 00:29:38,658
I don't know that I want to push this case.

347
00:29:40,098 --> 00:29:49,278
And emblematic of that is I was working with a guy from a different division because my informant had connections to his subject.

348
00:29:50,278 --> 00:30:00,518
And so as this guy was talking to my informant, he says to him, and we're trying to get in on a kid who was likely to kill a lot of people.

349
00:30:00,518 --> 00:30:09,338
and my buddy says hey when you get in there don't be pushing the issues you let him drive it

350
00:30:09,338 --> 00:30:15,518
don't be trying to entrap him don't be trying to make a case for us we want to know if he is going

351
00:30:15,518 --> 00:30:21,718
to be violent we don't want to make him that guy and and i remember thinking that's exactly what i

352
00:30:21,718 --> 00:30:27,978
would say we want him to show us who he is not for us to create a great headline of how we got

353
00:30:27,978 --> 00:30:35,398
another terrorist we want to find out the honest truth of is this someone who's a threat to safety

354
00:30:35,398 --> 00:30:41,358
and i think that is that's the sign of us trying to do what is morally right too

355
00:30:41,358 --> 00:30:50,878
okay yeah i was thinking a lot smaller than that right so um here's a simple one right uh you know

356
00:30:50,878 --> 00:31:03,878
biblically being untruthful, even in the, you know, aspect of just leaving out information

357
00:31:03,878 --> 00:31:09,838
to make it seem like it might be something else is biblically not thought of as okay.

358
00:31:10,298 --> 00:31:14,458
I don't know that there's any scripture that counters that, right?

359
00:31:14,918 --> 00:31:17,698
That says, oh, but in this circumstance, you can lie.

360
00:31:17,878 --> 00:31:19,418
Yeah, if you're law enforcement, it's fine.

361
00:31:19,418 --> 00:31:25,718
and then and then the lord sayeth but if you're a cop right and so i guess i was thinking a lot

362
00:31:25,718 --> 00:31:31,778
smaller right like you know oh are you an fbi agent no of course not and and i guess morally for

363
00:31:31,778 --> 00:31:38,138
for for me i think that that would be something where it's like you know i'm i'm actively lying

364
00:31:38,138 --> 00:31:44,078
and you know yeah no that i'm glad you pointed that out because that's not what i thought of

365
00:31:44,078 --> 00:31:51,898
And I know I have lied to people in my job just because I must have.

366
00:31:52,758 --> 00:31:54,118
And it didn't stand out to me.

367
00:31:54,458 --> 00:32:03,518
However, I would not as a practice lie to the criminals because we're allowed to.

368
00:32:03,918 --> 00:32:11,878
You know, I can tell – as long as it's not manipulative in a way where I would threaten, you know, like you're going to get the electric chair for this.

369
00:32:11,878 --> 00:32:14,338
Or we're going to take away your children if you don't confess.

370
00:32:14,818 --> 00:32:16,118
So that you can't do.

371
00:32:17,638 --> 00:32:25,638
But I can say things like we have two witnesses who put you at the scene of the crime, things like that.

372
00:32:25,778 --> 00:32:31,318
I never did that because if I got caught doing it, it wasn't a moral reason.

373
00:32:31,678 --> 00:32:36,978
But if I got caught doing that, then I've blown the actual evidence that I have.

374
00:32:37,138 --> 00:32:38,758
So my case is good enough.

375
00:32:38,818 --> 00:32:41,138
I don't have to waste it on making things up.

376
00:32:41,878 --> 00:32:51,218
And I feel like all of that came through to a degree as authentic that if I'm being honest, it's just easier to talk.

377
00:32:51,738 --> 00:32:55,678
I don't have to try to keep, you know, that's your job as the criminal.

378
00:32:56,118 --> 00:33:02,358
That's your job to struggle trying to keep your story straight because you're trying to remember which one is actually the right one.

379
00:33:02,578 --> 00:33:03,638
I don't want to have to do that.

380
00:33:04,478 --> 00:33:07,658
I want you to be under that pressure, whereas I'm just talking freely.

381
00:33:09,678 --> 00:33:10,958
Yeah, no, that makes sense.

382
00:33:10,958 --> 00:33:17,458
That would, you know, it was an interesting one for me when I saw the original pitch.

383
00:33:17,538 --> 00:33:19,338
I was like, well, how does that work, right?

384
00:33:19,458 --> 00:33:22,638
I mean, like, well, I'm kind of okay with this now.

385
00:33:23,078 --> 00:33:30,978
And so for me, you know, the moral conundrum comes up for me to kind of, you know, grind through my own brain.

386
00:33:31,398 --> 00:33:33,458
How does that fit, you know, in my mind?

387
00:33:33,518 --> 00:33:35,298
Because we all like to do that, right?

388
00:33:35,298 --> 00:33:40,098
you personalize whatever it is you're thinking about and think about how would I be or how would

389
00:33:40,098 --> 00:33:45,078
it be for me to be in this situation yeah I think when I've been asked that before I was always

390
00:33:45,078 --> 00:33:49,178
thinking that people are like are you okay with killing somebody I'm like well I don't want to

391
00:33:49,178 --> 00:33:55,638
but you know there are situations but yeah that's a good one about lying and I can tell you I do

392
00:33:55,638 --> 00:34:00,598
remember one time I did lie and it was to a pedophile when he caught us trying to uh interview

393
00:34:00,598 --> 00:34:08,698
his girlfriend as a witness and we told him we were there as insurance adjusters.

394
00:34:11,938 --> 00:34:12,458
Nice.

395
00:34:12,898 --> 00:34:18,578
But I'm going to rationalize that in my head that we were protecting the girlfriend.

396
00:34:18,878 --> 00:34:19,598
So there we go.

397
00:34:21,338 --> 00:34:22,718
You probably were.

398
00:34:22,998 --> 00:34:23,178
Yeah.

399
00:34:23,978 --> 00:34:24,838
So awesome.

400
00:34:24,838 --> 00:34:30,738
So on your book, is it primarily just a collection of stories?

401
00:34:31,158 --> 00:34:33,798
Is there kind of a – yes?

402
00:34:34,318 --> 00:34:48,258
So I start out with the idea – like if you took the sense of what the whole book is, imagine if there is a crazy social scientist who goes to his colleagues and says,

403
00:34:48,258 --> 00:34:55,198
hey, I want to see what happens if we pulled this Baptist pastor out of church and we put him in the FBI.

404
00:34:55,698 --> 00:34:57,718
He's never handled a gun before, too.

405
00:34:57,818 --> 00:34:58,898
That would be great, wouldn't it?

406
00:34:59,418 --> 00:35:02,418
And then somebody else pipes up and is like, let's put him on the SWAT team eventually.

407
00:35:02,558 --> 00:35:03,518
Like, yeah, that's a good idea.

408
00:35:04,038 --> 00:35:07,478
And so there's just this spread of like, I'm just a guy.

409
00:35:08,538 --> 00:35:13,678
I'm just the unlikeliest feller who was in the FBI.

410
00:35:15,438 --> 00:35:16,538
I'm pretty smart.

411
00:35:16,538 --> 00:35:17,698
I was pretty fit.

412
00:35:18,258 --> 00:35:21,358
But the idea of like, really, a Baptist pastor?

413
00:35:21,538 --> 00:35:22,278
That's crazy.

414
00:35:22,898 --> 00:35:24,158
This is what I got to do.

415
00:35:24,298 --> 00:35:26,338
So, yeah, here's a story.

416
00:35:26,798 --> 00:35:28,618
I had sent you one of the chapters.

417
00:35:28,618 --> 00:35:39,558
Here's the story of when I got to interrogate a pastor who was involved in a ring of pastors that were sex trafficking teenage girl.

418
00:35:39,998 --> 00:35:41,438
And, you know, how did that go?

419
00:35:41,958 --> 00:35:45,778
So in each chapter, it's this is the case I worked on.

420
00:35:45,978 --> 00:35:47,558
This is the case I was a part of.

421
00:35:48,258 --> 00:35:52,318
And then the thread through that of what happened.

422
00:35:52,318 --> 00:35:59,058
And then I finish up with what we often do in military or law enforcement is an after

423
00:35:59,058 --> 00:36:03,378
action review, which is considering, hey, what went well and why?

424
00:36:03,878 --> 00:36:04,838
How do we screw up?

425
00:36:04,858 --> 00:36:05,818
What do we need to change?

426
00:36:06,678 --> 00:36:12,918
And so even with each of those investigations or these stories going back to look at it

427
00:36:12,918 --> 00:36:15,338
then from that lens of here's a guy who used to be a minister.

428
00:36:15,658 --> 00:36:18,118
And now I'm thinking of how that work out.

429
00:36:18,258 --> 00:36:27,338
very cool so did you actually connect those two in in the book like you know i i tried to i tried

430
00:36:27,338 --> 00:36:35,198
to have the idea of you know i begin with my story so here's me i'm a i'm a pastor here's some of the

431
00:36:35,198 --> 00:36:41,918
stuff here's what i went through here's some funny anecdotes the first sermon i ever preached i was in

432
00:36:41,918 --> 00:36:49,898
Jamestown, New York and Western New York and very conservative Baptist church.

433
00:36:50,438 --> 00:36:52,318
Very, very conservative, very old.

434
00:36:52,678 --> 00:36:55,518
And I was their first associate pastor.

435
00:36:56,218 --> 00:37:00,258
So senior pastor says, hey, I'm going to be away on this day.

436
00:37:00,378 --> 00:37:03,598
I need you to preach on this chapter.

437
00:37:04,118 --> 00:37:08,378
Well, pastor was going like chapter by chapter through the Bible.

438
00:37:08,378 --> 00:37:12,058
and he says, this is going to be the passage I want you to preach on

439
00:37:12,058 --> 00:37:13,598
because it's the one that falls on when I'm out.

440
00:37:14,118 --> 00:37:14,658
I go, okay.

441
00:37:14,658 --> 00:37:19,538
So I look at it and the passage is entitled,

442
00:37:20,158 --> 00:37:23,658
God gives the right of circumcision to Moses.

443
00:37:24,198 --> 00:37:25,918
I'm like, fantastic.

444
00:37:26,938 --> 00:37:30,478
The first sermon I preach is on circumcision?

445
00:37:31,158 --> 00:37:37,578
So I go to my wife and I'm like, hey, I'm thinking of opening with a joke.

446
00:37:38,378 --> 00:37:40,118
Tell me if you think I should do this.

447
00:37:41,498 --> 00:37:47,058
I'm going to say, Pastor Cook asked me to speak about circumcision today.

448
00:37:48,238 --> 00:37:51,218
The message is kind of long, so I took a bit off the end.

449
00:37:54,838 --> 00:37:58,018
My wife says, I don't think you should tell that joke.

450
00:37:58,018 --> 00:37:59,578
And so I didn't.

451
00:37:59,798 --> 00:38:06,038
But then I realized if I couldn't tell dick jokes in church, was I really free to be myself?

452
00:38:08,378 --> 00:38:13,838
the great awakening that's it and that's when i realized i have to join the fbi instead

453
00:38:13,838 --> 00:38:22,798
we're we're yeah okay dick dick jokes yeah they they flow freely yes

454
00:38:22,798 --> 00:38:29,838
how interesting is it when you have to or you had to investigate crimes like that in your former

455
00:38:29,838 --> 00:38:35,198
profession or or even in the law enforcement i'm sure there's corruption and and you know that kind

456
00:38:35,198 --> 00:38:40,498
of activity and that did you ever have to investigate any police corruption yeah i was

457
00:38:40,498 --> 00:38:50,818
i worked uh civil rights and public corruption in chicago and so my one of the cases i had uh was

458
00:38:50,818 --> 00:38:59,318
actually a historic case my buddy jake owned the case but i was number two on it and it was

459
00:38:59,318 --> 00:39:06,958
investigating john burge who was a chicago police commander who had for decades he and his team

460
00:39:06,958 --> 00:39:15,218
had tortured uh suspects to get confessions out of them and i mean it was historic like this is

461
00:39:15,218 --> 00:39:20,138
i mean it's not that big a deal like there's books written about it there's you can go on

462
00:39:20,138 --> 00:39:26,838
wikipedia and look up john burge to me yeah no i mean a big deal in that like this was known in

463
00:39:26,838 --> 00:39:34,578
Chicago that here is a guy who almost exclusively, if not exclusively, the victims that he tortured

464
00:39:34,578 --> 00:39:44,258
were black men. And so this was a case that we were working 15 to 25 years after the fact.

465
00:39:44,458 --> 00:39:52,618
So we're long past the time where he had tortured them. And just five years prior to when we got a

466
00:39:52,618 --> 00:39:59,478
conviction, John Burge had stated in federal civil court while he's being sued by one of the victims

467
00:39:59,478 --> 00:40:07,898
that he knew nothing about torture in area two of Chicago. And so just like Elliot Ness,

468
00:40:08,338 --> 00:40:16,638
we got him on perjury and obstruction of justice. But we're interviewing these victims like

469
00:40:16,638 --> 00:40:22,298
many years later, they'd already served their sentence. They're already out and they're

470
00:40:22,298 --> 00:40:28,478
telling stories about how they were tortured how they're beaten to get a confession do you ever

471
00:40:28,478 --> 00:40:32,358
give it never quite seems like they get the justice that they deserve when they're public

472
00:40:32,358 --> 00:40:38,138
officials or police it's usually like oh you have to resign yeah and get your full pension and maybe

473
00:40:38,138 --> 00:40:43,138
move to a different agency that seems to be the the biggest consensus on that well and with john

474
00:40:43,138 --> 00:40:49,798
burge like this was like he he was already retired he was an old man so he got to live out his life

475
00:40:49,798 --> 00:40:59,818
and I mean in the end he got I think maybe four and a half years for 20 years of torture and abuse

476
00:40:59,818 --> 00:41:07,378
it wasn't justice but the Chicago PD had turned a blind eye he was doing a great job so they're

477
00:41:07,378 --> 00:41:13,758
going to just dismiss the rumors and the reports and the friggin FBI didn't do their job either

478
00:41:13,758 --> 00:41:23,298
until many years later. So in circumstances like that, one of the things always pops up to my mind

479
00:41:23,298 --> 00:41:30,898
is leading in with what you kind of ended with there. How much pushback is, I imagine there's

480
00:41:30,898 --> 00:41:49,676
in certain cases where they look at that and they go dude if you do this all these people are gonna sue us How much pushback do you get from above on cases like that Say Hey you know be careful or you better you know whatever Yeah So there a

481
00:41:49,676 --> 00:41:54,936
saying in the Bureau of big cases, big problems, small cases, small problems. And if you're,

482
00:41:54,936 --> 00:42:01,596
if you're going after a, a case that's, that, you know, will make headlines,

483
00:42:01,596 --> 00:42:07,936
there's a lot of people eyeballing it and there's folks who are going to that are like people you

484
00:42:07,936 --> 00:42:13,956
haven't met before you know as an agent are going to start getting involved and giving input and

485
00:42:13,956 --> 00:42:22,956
it's most of what we do doesn't like here's a guy i proved he's a criminal we take him down

486
00:42:22,956 --> 00:42:28,436
arrest him no problem and then there's a few like that where you know somebody from headquarters

487
00:42:28,436 --> 00:42:34,996
is debriefed on it and then they start pushing back or directing and that's just the worst thing

488
00:42:34,996 --> 00:42:41,676
no agent wants that that's their nightmare yeah that doesn't matter who's like in the white house

489
00:42:41,676 --> 00:42:47,156
at the time or who the head of the fbi is and what cases get pushed at that time i'm sure there's some

490
00:42:47,156 --> 00:42:53,096
kind of political aspect to that office because even in the local sheriff's offices it's a political

491
00:42:53,096 --> 00:42:57,416
aspect. Well, it's more political in the local sheriff's office for sure.

492
00:42:58,416 --> 00:43:06,556
There is, there's trickle down to the field in, to a degree, the great majority of what

493
00:43:06,556 --> 00:43:12,936
agents do is just like the same as always. Like I can only work cases that my informants bring me

494
00:43:12,936 --> 00:43:19,676
or, you know, bad guys that I see. I can't, I can't manufacture stuff. So as an example,

495
00:43:19,676 --> 00:43:28,856
during Black Lives Matter protests and such, Trump's first term, we were, Jeff Sessions,

496
00:43:28,996 --> 00:43:34,416
the attorney general, saying, hey, let's look at Antifa and see if they're trying to create

497
00:43:34,416 --> 00:43:40,696
violence or destruction of property. I said, okay, let's see. And we're trying to find these

498
00:43:40,696 --> 00:43:47,096
guys, at least in our area, they're not there. They're not talking about organizing. And so

499
00:43:47,096 --> 00:43:54,056
So there can be like an emphasis or like a push for something.

500
00:43:54,476 --> 00:43:59,576
But again, like you can have guys saying, we want to wipe out Antifa.

501
00:43:59,996 --> 00:44:04,136
And then I'll come back with, yeah, my informants have nothing.

502
00:44:04,296 --> 00:44:05,856
Like they're talking to these guys.

503
00:44:06,336 --> 00:44:10,436
Like can't charge them if they don't break the law.

504
00:44:10,436 --> 00:44:19,356
so some more of like a general directional type of a push then like you need to do the this yeah a

505
00:44:19,356 --> 00:44:23,996
flavor you know uh um you know somebody's putting like a pinky on the scale of saying

506
00:44:23,996 --> 00:44:30,136
maybe a little more of this yeah it's a little bit before your time but how would something like

507
00:44:30,136 --> 00:44:35,876
like waco or ruby ridge get escalated to what happened in those situations is it just like one

508
00:44:35,876 --> 00:44:40,416
guy picks up like a tip or something and it just kind of moves from there?

509
00:44:40,956 --> 00:44:41,476
Yeah.

510
00:44:41,696 --> 00:44:46,076
I mean, obviously it's so much different now because, you know, we've got the internet,

511
00:44:46,296 --> 00:44:50,136
we've got the National Threat Operations Center where things come in.

512
00:44:50,736 --> 00:44:57,836
But the way that cases are made are, you know, whether an informant brings us something

513
00:44:57,836 --> 00:45:04,576
or we task him to look into a new group or a person to see if there's violence there.

514
00:45:05,876 --> 00:45:12,556
call comes in from a neighbor who sees something. We might even get it from the newspaper where

515
00:45:12,556 --> 00:45:20,076
you see a deal being done and people talking about suspicious change of money. So we'll look

516
00:45:20,076 --> 00:45:26,196
into things and then there's kind of different levels. There's a full investigation where

517
00:45:26,196 --> 00:45:34,396
we're going all in and then there's kind of these assessments where we're going to look at it. We

518
00:45:34,396 --> 00:45:43,836
We have limited legal authority, and we want to see if there is something here that we can now move up to another level.

519
00:45:48,856 --> 00:45:49,456
Interesting.

520
00:45:50,636 --> 00:45:54,316
If you want to know more, you can ask more, but that's a general way of things go.

521
00:45:54,756 --> 00:45:59,896
I'm just thinking, so the FBI knocks at my door or Havoc's door.

522
00:45:59,976 --> 00:46:00,636
What should we say?

523
00:46:01,196 --> 00:46:01,876
Meet feet?

524
00:46:01,996 --> 00:46:03,256
I'm not talking to you.

525
00:46:04,396 --> 00:46:07,436
Well, I mean, I always say this.

526
00:46:07,636 --> 00:46:15,036
I read some Reddit comment where people are like, if the FBI ever shows up, you should say this.

527
00:46:15,096 --> 00:46:16,136
I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

528
00:46:16,576 --> 00:46:19,336
If the FBI shows up, they're probably a criminal.

529
00:46:19,776 --> 00:46:21,036
Why are you telling guys?

530
00:46:21,376 --> 00:46:23,056
Don't you want these people off the street?

531
00:46:24,156 --> 00:46:31,756
But I mean, obviously, if it were me, and you guys can be smart enough too.

532
00:46:31,756 --> 00:46:33,536
Like I know what to not say.

533
00:46:34,456 --> 00:46:37,096
And I just always tell people just be polite.

534
00:46:37,696 --> 00:46:41,636
So if somebody asked me a question, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to answer that.

535
00:46:41,876 --> 00:46:43,576
Is there something else I can help you with?

536
00:46:43,596 --> 00:46:47,816
Cause I mean, hell, the guy might be there saying, yeah, I just wanted to let you know

537
00:46:47,816 --> 00:46:51,716
that there's a murderer on the loose and we're looking for him in the woods behind your house.

538
00:46:51,716 --> 00:46:56,576
Like, and then, you know, you come to the door and say, get the hell out of here.

539
00:46:56,636 --> 00:46:59,776
And you're like, okay, best of luck there, buddy.

540
00:47:01,756 --> 00:47:12,436
Yeah. What was your favorite as far as training goes, right? Physical training in the FBI. What was your favorite part?

541
00:47:12,436 --> 00:47:23,776
uh so we had SWAT training regularly and being a part of that like just doing it a

542
00:47:23,776 --> 00:47:31,936
close quarter battle training CQB training that's that's it's like learning line dancing

543
00:47:31,936 --> 00:47:37,516
where guys are going through and you've done this enough where one moves two moves three moves four

544
00:47:37,516 --> 00:47:41,696
moves, five's at the door ready to move, you know, and, and this guy gets out of place,

545
00:47:41,716 --> 00:47:42,236
is exposed.

546
00:47:42,496 --> 00:47:47,616
And then that guy jumps in and you look at it like, I mean, I kind of feel a little tingly.

547
00:47:47,616 --> 00:47:53,016
Like we would go to like abandoned, we get permission and we go to like abandoned hospital

548
00:47:53,016 --> 00:47:57,916
or school and we do a cold run where we've never seen it.

549
00:47:58,496 --> 00:48:03,016
And we'd hit this complex room with so many danger areas.

550
00:48:03,016 --> 00:48:08,416
and we do that and I just go, oh, that was cool.

551
00:48:09,376 --> 00:48:14,316
And being a part of it, then you appreciate it even more of like, oh, wow, we can solve this.

552
00:48:15,096 --> 00:48:21,676
And solving it in the tactical sense is everybody protecting the next guy

553
00:48:21,676 --> 00:48:24,836
and making people as safe as they can.

554
00:48:25,716 --> 00:48:28,536
So when I would teach tactics to other agents,

555
00:48:28,536 --> 00:48:35,636
one thing i regularly said is tactics is about being a buddy so that if your buddy's in a place

556
00:48:35,636 --> 00:48:41,856
where he's exposed hey i'm gonna be a buddy and i'm gonna cover your back with my gun and plates

557
00:48:41,856 --> 00:48:49,756
so that you're safer and now if that exposes me then this guy's gonna be a buddy something i've

558
00:48:49,756 --> 00:48:56,916
always wondered about like the whole you know you know breaching right uh

559
00:48:56,916 --> 00:49:01,876
obviously there are circumstances, right?

560
00:49:01,936 --> 00:49:06,136
You start talking about HRT, different concept, right?

561
00:49:06,196 --> 00:49:10,356
There's an immediate and urgent need that this has to happen, right?

562
00:49:10,536 --> 00:49:15,116
Otherwise, you're potentially going to lose a lot of lives, right?

563
00:49:16,996 --> 00:49:20,596
Whereas in a lot of cases, I look at these and I go,

564
00:49:20,596 --> 00:49:24,376
look, I mean, right off the bat, CQB is well-known,

565
00:49:24,376 --> 00:49:31,736
well known as the most dangerous type of battle with the highest mortality rate because you're

566
00:49:31,736 --> 00:49:38,396
going into a floor plan you may have a floor plan you may even have an outline of what it looks like

567
00:49:38,396 --> 00:49:43,916
in most of the house but you could be coming in where there are multiple armed people with

568
00:49:43,916 --> 00:49:49,836
very high caliber weapons that you know i mean you're you're stacking up in a hallway right

569
00:49:49,836 --> 00:50:19,676
Because that's the only way to get to a door. And next thing you know, you know, big rounds are coming your way. What is the, I mean, what is the, the reasoning behind some of this? I've always wondered why not just camp out and wait for this person to be out at their mailbox or wait for this person to be somewhere that's more isolated, a takedown in that manner so that you're not, you know, risking the lives of the agents as well as

570
00:50:19,836 --> 00:50:23,656
potentially innocent people inside of a dwelling?

571
00:50:23,656 --> 00:50:25,136
No, that's a good question.

572
00:50:25,376 --> 00:50:28,096
And that is often what we do.

573
00:50:28,396 --> 00:50:36,236
So even as a SWAT team, so if a subject hits a certain threshold on a matrix to say, he's

574
00:50:36,236 --> 00:50:36,996
this dangerous.

575
00:50:36,996 --> 00:50:43,656
And so that might be criminal history, cameras, guns, a number of things.

576
00:50:43,716 --> 00:50:48,196
Maybe it's the terrain, then SWAT's going to get called.

577
00:50:48,196 --> 00:50:53,916
so they're the most dangerous guys and we go because we've got better equipment we've got

578
00:50:53,916 --> 00:51:00,036
more tools and of course as we talked about more training smoother and faster and the first thing

579
00:51:00,036 --> 00:51:05,876
that we do and the first thing that agents do all agents is we set up a tactical l where we've got

580
00:51:05,876 --> 00:51:15,276
all our fields of fire covered we we've got we can call out anybody exiting and then we announce

581
00:51:15,276 --> 00:51:21,776
our presence and try to have them come out to us where we're behind some type of ballistic

582
00:51:21,776 --> 00:51:27,516
barrier, you know, whether it's a vehicle or in a bearcat, an armored bearcat.

583
00:51:29,576 --> 00:51:36,336
And the people who know what they're doing look outside, see 15 guys with rifles and lasers on

584
00:51:36,336 --> 00:51:43,096
windows, and they realize I have one choice, and that is to give up. And so we may get a barricaded

585
00:51:43,096 --> 00:51:47,936
subject at times, but for the most part, and we have ways to mitigate that.

586
00:51:48,516 --> 00:51:54,016
But guys, you know, we've had plenty of guys where we see them in the window and they're

587
00:51:54,016 --> 00:51:58,756
peering out and then they come out and we get upstairs and we see a gun on the table

588
00:51:58,756 --> 00:52:01,636
next to that window where he's ready to go.

589
00:52:02,696 --> 00:52:04,156
He sees he's not going to make it.

590
00:52:04,176 --> 00:52:05,076
He's got one choice.

591
00:52:06,996 --> 00:52:08,936
So that is often what we do.

592
00:52:08,996 --> 00:52:10,056
We're trying to do that.

593
00:52:10,056 --> 00:52:17,196
And then we're also porting windows, sending in drones so that they can see, okay, here's an approach.

594
00:52:17,456 --> 00:52:20,136
Now we can breach where the breacher is going to be safer.

595
00:52:20,816 --> 00:52:22,596
It's less likely to catch fire.

596
00:52:23,016 --> 00:52:35,196
I was a breacher on our SWAT team, and I would often tell the guys I'm the most important person on the team because if I don't get that door open, we can't get the job done.

597
00:52:35,196 --> 00:52:40,276
and I'm also the least valuable because here I am standing in front of a door

598
00:52:40,276 --> 00:52:45,516
with a ram in my hands with my side exposed, you know, for a couple seconds, hopefully.

599
00:52:48,276 --> 00:52:57,656
Interesting. I guess, you know, story time. What would be the, and maybe you can't say,

600
00:52:57,656 --> 00:53:02,556
and that's okay as well, but what would be the worst breach and entry that you had?

601
00:53:05,196 --> 00:53:10,976
how bad was it and if you can't talk about that's acceptable no we can talk about it uh

602
00:53:10,976 --> 00:53:19,796
i i was a young breacher and we hit the front door and it took me probably eight swings

603
00:53:19,796 --> 00:53:29,116
because the front door is where they put the couch and i'm like that's pretty impressive like

604
00:53:29,116 --> 00:53:35,676
eight swings and I breached the door and moved the couch. Um, you know, so I remember like,

605
00:53:35,716 --> 00:53:40,076
I'm probably five swings in and my, and my team leader's like, Hey, give it up, give it up. I'm

606
00:53:40,076 --> 00:53:45,176
like, Nope. I'm, I can feel it. I'm getting there. So that was a rough one. I had one of my buddies,

607
00:53:45,336 --> 00:53:53,856
JB, Oh dude, he, he hit, I think we're in Pittsburgh and he hit the door and came back

608
00:53:53,856 --> 00:54:00,536
And he was swinging so hard and fast, he hit his forearm against the door jam.

609
00:54:00,596 --> 00:54:03,316
And he had like a knot like this.

610
00:54:04,156 --> 00:54:06,496
And it wasn't broken.

611
00:54:06,576 --> 00:54:08,956
It was just a massive muscle contusion.

612
00:54:09,236 --> 00:54:14,356
And he sat down and got a little pale, you know, after that.

613
00:54:14,616 --> 00:54:14,796
Oh, yeah.

614
00:54:14,996 --> 00:54:20,836
And then I had a buddy in Cincinnati division who came up to breach a door.

615
00:54:20,836 --> 00:54:28,536
and also hit the door jam like in his wrist.

616
00:54:29,116 --> 00:54:32,476
And so after he busted it, he came out and said, like, hey, I'm out.

617
00:54:32,716 --> 00:54:33,956
You know, I hit my wrist.

618
00:54:34,676 --> 00:54:40,416
And it wasn't until they took him into the ambulance that they realized he'd been shot.

619
00:54:41,496 --> 00:54:46,776
So as he was at the front door, guys didn't know it was the police and, you know,

620
00:54:46,856 --> 00:54:50,456
popped around from the couch and then went, oh, and then hid the gun.

621
00:54:50,836 --> 00:54:57,816
And, you know, nobody's saying anything. They're not going to say anything either. But yeah, very fortunate. He just got shot in the wrist and that was it.

622
00:54:57,816 --> 00:55:22,316
Wow. Have you ever had a circumstance where a, what would you call them, a perpetrator, I guess, have you ever had an instance where after the fact, maybe years go by, they get out, et cetera, and you get a phone call from them thanking you for saving their life or anything like that?

623
00:55:22,316 --> 00:55:39,476
Uh, I, I have not. They usually aren't going to try to look up the guys to put them away. I did have one guy we arrested, um, for, um, possession with intent to distribute cocaine.

624
00:55:39,476 --> 00:55:46,136
and I remember like he said hey who's got a flashlight I'm gonna show you how I have no

625
00:55:46,136 --> 00:55:51,976
nose left like I'm gonna stick it up there and like I believe you buddy and he thanked us like

626
00:55:51,976 --> 00:55:57,936
he was a nice guy and he said hey I just want to let you guys know I was not selling cocaine

627
00:55:57,936 --> 00:56:04,016
I'm not fighting the charges but he goes I used it all you know and it was a large amount and his

628
00:56:04,016 --> 00:56:09,896
whole point was like, I use so much, I have no septum left. And he just goes, this is going to

629
00:56:09,896 --> 00:56:14,556
be good for me. It's like, it was, that was his attitude. It was like, yep, this is the best thing

630
00:56:14,556 --> 00:56:21,676
that happened to me. I need this. I'm glad I'm going away. So that was remarkable. And I had

631
00:56:21,676 --> 00:56:29,736
one father thank me for executing a search warrant and arresting his son because he couldn't control

632
00:56:29,736 --> 00:56:36,096
him and he was pretty sure and the reason we were there is that his kid would be a mass shooter

633
00:56:36,096 --> 00:56:42,596
sometime so he had hidden guns that his son had purchased because he was afraid he's going to kill

634
00:56:42,596 --> 00:56:51,236
people and now on the flip side do you ever worry about people that may not be as grateful for your

635
00:56:51,236 --> 00:56:58,616
services and do you feel like it kind of because you're out there a lot now doing all these podcasts

636
00:56:58,616 --> 00:56:59,736
and your name's out there.

637
00:57:00,676 --> 00:57:04,316
Do you ever worry about your family or anything like that?

638
00:57:04,396 --> 00:57:05,756
Like anybody doing anything like that?

639
00:57:05,976 --> 00:57:06,896
The kid I just mentioned.

640
00:57:07,476 --> 00:57:11,596
So that kid I mentioned, he goes away.

641
00:57:12,336 --> 00:57:13,976
He went away for a year.

642
00:57:15,636 --> 00:57:19,316
I mean, I just hit him with gun charges because he had been institutionalized

643
00:57:19,316 --> 00:57:20,096
against his will.

644
00:57:20,416 --> 00:57:22,536
So there's a box on the form you got to check.

645
00:57:24,496 --> 00:57:25,496
And he lied.

646
00:57:25,496 --> 00:57:28,156
So put him away for a year.

647
00:57:28,616 --> 00:57:35,916
And as soon as he got out, I talked to his – he started, like, contacting me or, like, trying to harass me.

648
00:57:36,856 --> 00:57:38,416
Definitely not over the line.

649
00:57:38,576 --> 00:57:42,436
So, like, he wasn't – it wasn't threats, but you got the sense.

650
00:57:43,796 --> 00:57:49,176
I talked to his therapist, his counselor at the halfway house, and he goes,

651
00:57:49,176 --> 00:57:52,316
I have worked with death row inmates for 20 years.

652
00:57:52,456 --> 00:57:57,376
I've never been as afraid of a subject as I have of this kid.

653
00:57:58,616 --> 00:58:09,916
And so because of him, every day when I parked my bureau vehicle, it was in a public garage in the building adjacent to where we worked.

654
00:58:10,276 --> 00:58:20,536
I would get out and the first thing I would do would be look around before like I'm turning my back and putting my head down because I figured he's going to pop out at some point.

655
00:58:24,016 --> 00:58:24,416
Wow.

656
00:58:26,196 --> 00:58:28,156
Yeah, that's I mean, that's a lot to live.

657
00:58:28,616 --> 00:58:29,416
Hanging over your head.

658
00:58:29,596 --> 00:58:30,916
Worry about that kind of stuff, though.

659
00:58:31,696 --> 00:58:39,076
It was more – it was less of like hanging over my head and worrying, and it was more of like, well, there's no point in being stupid.

660
00:58:39,596 --> 00:58:41,656
Like let's give a look.

661
00:58:41,656 --> 00:58:54,396
So I wasn't like – again, like compared to being a pastor, that didn't stress me, which is crazy because I wasn't going through anything that normal pastors don't deal with.

662
00:58:54,656 --> 00:58:57,016
I wasn't special, and it wasn't extra hard.

663
00:58:57,456 --> 00:58:58,536
I just couldn't handle it.

664
00:58:58,616 --> 00:59:01,096
And here's a kid that I thought, maybe he'll kill me someday.

665
00:59:01,196 --> 00:59:03,596
I'm like, yeah, okay.

666
00:59:03,996 --> 00:59:05,496
I should look around first.

667
00:59:05,696 --> 00:59:06,836
And it didn't bother me.

668
00:59:07,916 --> 00:59:08,716
That's crazy.

669
00:59:08,936 --> 00:59:12,656
I mean, like I know I'm pretty careful.

670
00:59:12,856 --> 00:59:14,176
I don't even put my name out there.

671
00:59:14,176 --> 00:59:17,456
And I'm just some schmo doing the silly podcast.

672
00:59:17,596 --> 00:59:17,956
I'm nobody.

673
00:59:18,156 --> 00:59:18,316
Yeah.

674
00:59:19,416 --> 00:59:22,016
I've never put anybody in jail for any time.

675
00:59:22,016 --> 00:59:24,556
I kind of had to talk him into it, to be honest with you.

676
00:59:24,556 --> 00:59:24,896
Good.

677
00:59:25,656 --> 00:59:26,776
He doesn't like podcasts.

678
00:59:26,776 --> 00:59:36,136
so stay on that side that's good i so the for me the one positive is and i'm pretty sure i haven't

679
00:59:36,136 --> 00:59:41,116
googled myself lately but i would occasionally do that just to see if there's something that pops up

680
00:59:41,116 --> 00:59:45,916
make sure people can identify where i live or something and i think the one thing that would

681
00:59:45,916 --> 00:59:54,676
come up if you put in eric robinson fbi was a time that um a white kid uh but a pimp

682
00:59:54,676 --> 01:00:00,736
in a cutoff shirt he was one of the guys buying four and a half shirts i probably he bought the

683
01:00:00,736 --> 01:00:08,356
half so he had a cutoff shirt and and track pants we had arrested him after this long operation

684
01:00:08,356 --> 01:00:14,756
and he's like oh i i can give you anybody like i can do all these buys and i'm like look man

685
01:00:14,756 --> 01:00:20,556
i gave him my business card i said you come back monday and you call me or we're just going to

686
01:00:20,556 --> 01:00:24,156
charge you and you better have some real information. And then I totally forgot about

687
01:00:24,156 --> 01:00:33,576
him until one day, um, the, the manager of a local sports chain, uh, sports bar came by

688
01:00:33,576 --> 01:00:40,156
and asked for me and he goes, Oh, so you're Eric Robinson. So what had happened is I gave the guy

689
01:00:40,156 --> 01:00:47,216
my business card said, you call me this kid and his, uh, girlfriend prostitute went down the street

690
01:00:47,216 --> 01:00:55,376
show this guy had balls this big to do this shows a business card and says i'm eric robinson with

691
01:00:55,376 --> 01:01:03,256
the fbi i gotta debrief this informant and he made off with like 85 dollars in appetizers and drinks

692
01:01:03,256 --> 01:01:10,176
and this dude thought that was an fbi agent like some some 20 year old kid in track suit

693
01:01:10,176 --> 01:01:18,496
um so i think that guy stealing my identity and the and the charges against him are about the only

694
01:01:18,496 --> 01:01:23,656
thing you'll find on me in the in the google i'll have to google my stuff i mean talking about

695
01:01:23,656 --> 01:01:28,696
appearances i i probably wouldn't have pegged you as an fbi agent if you know if i didn't know i'd

696
01:01:28,696 --> 01:01:33,916
say like construction foreman or maybe auto mechanic or lumberjack i don't know there we go

697
01:01:33,916 --> 01:01:34,116
Something.

698
01:01:34,556 --> 01:01:37,076
FBI agent probably would have been the last thing on my mind.

699
01:01:37,316 --> 01:01:38,176
It's the flannel.

700
01:01:38,696 --> 01:01:38,936
Yeah.

701
01:01:38,936 --> 01:01:53,576
When I would do trainings for other police departments, or we would often do this large one for the Ohio Tactical Officers Association, and I'd give everybody one shot.

702
01:01:53,776 --> 01:02:00,016
I'd have this FBI patch, and I said, if you can guess what I used to do, I'll give you a patch before I got in the bureau.

703
01:02:00,016 --> 01:02:06,096
and by that time I'd had told a few dirty jokes and you know things like that and you know I'd go

704
01:02:06,096 --> 01:02:12,776
around and I'd get lumberjack and you know guys are like you're in the military I'm like why would

705
01:02:12,776 --> 01:02:19,936
that be unique like what why would I go I'll give you a patch if you can guess I was in the military

706
01:02:19,936 --> 01:02:44,334
like that stupid and but I did have a guy get it wow nice I imagine it was a pretty interesting like again in my head I putting myself in this position I walk into my first interview they pull up my resume and so you you know you at

707
01:02:44,334 --> 01:02:45,214
the FBI, right?

708
01:02:46,054 --> 01:02:46,614
Okay.

709
01:02:47,194 --> 01:02:49,774
And you're, you, pastor?

710
01:02:50,514 --> 01:02:50,834
Yeah.

711
01:02:51,354 --> 01:02:52,694
I mean, how did that go?

712
01:02:52,694 --> 01:02:53,794
I gotta imagine.

713
01:02:53,794 --> 01:03:06,314
I have a feeling that it has a lot to do with personality and being able to be kind of a social chameleon because you seem pretty affable and able to move in conversations with different people or you wouldn't be doing these podcasts.

714
01:03:06,314 --> 01:03:07,274
Well, I can.

715
01:03:08,034 --> 01:03:09,034
And I don't know.

716
01:03:09,314 --> 01:03:10,394
So I'll say this.

717
01:03:10,734 --> 01:03:21,094
Now in being able to converse with people, also being able to listen to them, which obviously I'm trying to do as a pastor, is very significant.

718
01:03:21,094 --> 01:03:27,634
so after the fact I think it paid off I don't know having been around applicant coordinators

719
01:03:27,634 --> 01:03:31,934
I don't know if they're that's always in their fourth order of their mind but when I applied

720
01:03:31,934 --> 01:03:42,734
keep this in mind I applied in 2001 my applications in process September comes around and my background

721
01:03:42,734 --> 01:03:48,594
was studying to be a missionary to Muslims so here's someone who has worked with Muslims talked

722
01:03:48,594 --> 01:03:54,914
with them, understands the culture and religion, and then 9-11, and let's put this guy through.

723
01:03:55,674 --> 01:04:02,374
So at least that got me in the door. I take the first test, which is like an SAT type test,

724
01:04:02,734 --> 01:04:07,534
and I took it, and I remember going, well, I tried. And then they called me back. I'm like,

725
01:04:08,374 --> 01:04:13,874
I don't know if you scored the test right here. And then the next parts were written

726
01:04:13,874 --> 01:04:18,374
and verbal like an interview where you've got to tell hey tell a time where you

727
01:04:18,374 --> 01:04:22,414
had to overcome something you know what were the results what did you do

728
01:04:22,414 --> 01:04:25,414
and at that point i knew okay i know how to talk

729
01:04:25,414 --> 01:04:30,974
now i feel comfortable and you got the the fit test and i was

730
01:04:30,974 --> 01:04:35,514
in good shape at the time so you know after i got through those first couple

731
01:04:35,514 --> 01:04:37,514
i'm like okay i think i can do this

732
01:04:37,514 --> 01:04:43,274
they do a polygraph and all that stuff too right that's part of it

733
01:04:43,274 --> 01:04:47,534
Yeah, and that was – my pants were soaked when I was done.

734
01:04:47,814 --> 01:04:50,874
Like it's a lot of – it's rough.

735
01:04:51,514 --> 01:04:52,954
And this is where – this is great.

736
01:04:53,054 --> 01:04:58,894
On your podcast, I will now announce I lied so much on the polygraph and I got past him.

737
01:04:59,774 --> 01:05:00,314
The guy was terrible.

738
01:05:00,314 --> 01:05:00,754
Really?

739
01:05:01,714 --> 01:05:03,914
Does that mean you're a psychopath or what does that mean?

740
01:05:03,914 --> 01:05:05,094
You're just a good liar.

741
01:05:05,234 --> 01:05:06,234
Just a good liar.

742
01:05:06,674 --> 01:05:10,614
Just a good – no, I mean it was rough.

743
01:05:10,614 --> 01:05:21,734
And I remember like being really stressed that I wasn't getting past until he came back with like, I'm having a lot of trouble on here with, are you working with another government?

744
01:05:21,874 --> 01:05:23,014
I'm like, oh, okay.

745
01:05:23,774 --> 01:05:28,954
If that's the one we're having a hard time with, I'm going to calm down because I'm not.

746
01:05:30,754 --> 01:05:31,694
Well, that's a good point.

747
01:05:31,694 --> 01:05:31,954
Or are you?

748
01:05:32,114 --> 01:05:32,954
Or am I?

749
01:05:33,774 --> 01:05:35,934
I don't have to answer your question.

750
01:05:36,394 --> 01:05:37,714
I don't answer questions.

751
01:05:37,714 --> 01:05:40,714
Well, this is your opportunity to tell your side of the story.

752
01:05:40,794 --> 01:05:43,274
Because if you don't tell your side of the story, we only have one side.

753
01:05:43,494 --> 01:05:46,194
We have to make our decision to arrest you based on that.

754
01:05:46,194 --> 01:05:46,994
You're so good.

755
01:05:47,174 --> 01:05:48,114
You're so good.

756
01:05:48,734 --> 01:05:49,794
Who taught you that?

757
01:05:50,954 --> 01:05:53,454
Secret agent man.

758
01:05:54,754 --> 01:05:58,454
My wife watches too many of those interrogation videos.

759
01:05:58,654 --> 01:05:59,034
Yeah.

760
01:05:59,374 --> 01:06:03,374
Which is bad for me because she's a master of the read technique.

761
01:06:03,894 --> 01:06:05,714
And I have no escape.

762
01:06:06,494 --> 01:06:07,334
I can't lie to her.

763
01:06:07,334 --> 01:06:13,714
whatsoever. So I don't, there's always aspects that work and don't work. I don't like the read

764
01:06:13,714 --> 01:06:22,954
technique because part of that is shutting you down. So if you start like one, it's you use

765
01:06:22,954 --> 01:06:29,254
ruses all the time, which I don't like. I don't like ruses and telling lies and like trying to

766
01:06:29,254 --> 01:06:35,874
see what works. And also if you start telling me things I don't want to hear and go against

767
01:06:35,874 --> 01:06:41,274
my beliefs, then I shut you down and bring you back to no, no, no, no. Answer my question the

768
01:06:41,274 --> 01:06:48,374
way I want you to. That's terrible. And so as a pastor, I did this as an FBI agent. If you want

769
01:06:48,374 --> 01:06:55,354
to start telling me lies, I'm curious. I'm open, man. Tell me more. And there's a point where I'll

770
01:06:55,354 --> 01:07:02,014
stop you, but I want to hear your lies because if I hear your lies, then I know where you stand.

771
01:07:02,014 --> 01:07:03,014
You're not cooperating.

772
01:07:04,654 --> 01:07:08,354
And secondly, that's probably going to be your defense.

773
01:07:08,654 --> 01:07:10,654
Like when you start going through this.

774
01:07:11,294 --> 01:07:13,974
And how do I know I know I'm right?

775
01:07:14,854 --> 01:07:21,714
So if I tell you like, hey, LX, I know you killed your neighbor.

776
01:07:22,194 --> 01:07:24,054
We had people who saw you do it.

777
01:07:24,274 --> 01:07:25,834
And you say, I didn't kill him.

778
01:07:25,874 --> 01:07:26,474
I didn't kill him.

779
01:07:26,474 --> 01:07:28,594
And I start shutting you down and say, no, no, no, no.

780
01:07:28,914 --> 01:07:29,874
You killed him.

781
01:07:29,874 --> 01:07:38,194
And we have people who – however, if I say we have people who saw you kill your neighbor and you say, I didn't do it, now I'm curious.

782
01:07:38,834 --> 01:07:43,594
And you go, he came at me with a rake and I tried to get away.

783
01:07:43,754 --> 01:07:47,274
And as he swung, I pushed him and he fell and hit a rock.

784
01:07:47,274 --> 01:07:52,414
So now I'm hearing what might be the truth or a bigger story.

785
01:07:52,714 --> 01:07:55,214
So tell your wife to stop using the read technique.

786
01:07:56,794 --> 01:07:59,854
I tell the truth because it's much easier to –

787
01:07:59,854 --> 01:08:05,494
we'll just tell the truth there's that too if you tell the truth you ain't got to remember nothing

788
01:08:05,494 --> 01:08:14,554
it's really easy the truth shall set me free amen yep well awesome so what would you say

789
01:08:14,554 --> 01:08:21,134
what would you say was the the thing you least liked about being in the fbi

790
01:08:21,134 --> 01:08:25,894
and you can't say paperwork you can't say no i wasn't i wasn't gonna say paperwork

791
01:08:25,894 --> 01:08:31,294
uh well i i will say this

792
01:08:31,294 --> 01:08:42,634
knowing that bad that criminals uh are going to not be brought to justice so i can have a case

793
01:08:42,634 --> 01:08:48,114
let me just say this i had a case on a guy who was stealing money so a white collar financial case

794
01:08:48,114 --> 01:08:52,814
and his accountant helped him in it.

795
01:08:54,434 --> 01:08:56,994
His attorney helped move money around.

796
01:08:58,054 --> 01:09:00,334
His first business partner,

797
01:09:01,614 --> 01:09:06,234
the two of them took $9 million from investors back in 1997

798
01:09:06,234 --> 01:09:08,654
and those three guys were not charged.

799
01:09:09,434 --> 01:09:14,514
Another attorney helped him put forward fake bond deals.

800
01:09:14,674 --> 01:09:15,194
He wasn't charged.

801
01:09:16,014 --> 01:09:16,934
That's the worst.

802
01:09:16,934 --> 01:09:23,674
so you know this guy got charged and four others got charged too and that here's these guys that

803
01:09:23,674 --> 01:09:31,334
i know are criminals i know they broke the law and oopy doopy i guess that's the way it goes

804
01:09:31,334 --> 01:09:35,574
so that's the worst you guys have ever anybody tried to bribe you and say hey you can uh

805
01:09:36,174 --> 01:09:43,214
take this uh big stack of cash and make this disappear for me no but you know what i remember

806
01:09:43,214 --> 01:09:53,734
We'd have discussions about that because I would tell people, like, I mean, I can't think of how much money it would have to be because it'd have to be a lot.

807
01:09:54,534 --> 01:09:58,914
I don't want to live my life thinking, oh, my gosh, what, you know, am I going to be found out?

808
01:09:58,974 --> 01:09:59,654
I'm a crook.

809
01:10:00,194 --> 01:10:02,434
Like, we're talking about millions.

810
01:10:03,034 --> 01:10:07,294
So if somebody had millions, I might be open to it.

811
01:10:07,294 --> 01:10:18,554
But, you know, it's just so much to give up, like, for your integrity and just sense of well-being that I got to be able to just be set and walk away.

812
01:10:18,754 --> 01:10:20,294
So, no, never had that.

813
01:10:21,294 --> 01:10:31,094
But I did once with another agent we carried, I think it was like $560,000 in cash to the Federal Reserve that we had seized off a guy.

814
01:10:32,094 --> 01:10:32,534
Wow.

815
01:10:32,774 --> 01:10:33,894
Did it feel like a lot of money?

816
01:10:33,994 --> 01:10:35,114
It was a few duffel bags.

817
01:10:35,114 --> 01:10:43,394
that's like all in 20s like big ones yeah oh it was big yeah that's that's definitely a lot of

818
01:10:43,394 --> 01:10:52,114
money yeah that's a lot of money oh real lot of money that's that's real money you know yeah yeah

819
01:10:52,114 --> 01:10:58,054
in cash did your friends from the irs come looking for their cut so you're well you're like hey we're

820
01:10:58,054 --> 01:11:03,334
gonna take this million and a half dollars to the federal reserve and you get there and you're like

821
01:11:03,334 --> 01:11:09,794
yeah, man, we got this million dollars and can you put this $560,000 in the locker for us?

822
01:11:09,874 --> 01:11:12,934
Because we just got this $560,000, no?

823
01:11:13,654 --> 01:11:16,974
560-ish, $540,000.

824
01:11:17,474 --> 01:11:26,834
So what's crazy is the guy who headed up our forfeiture unit in Chicago had so many bank complaints written about him

825
01:11:26,834 --> 01:11:32,074
because gang arrest, dope arrest, whatever, we'd seize the money.

826
01:11:32,074 --> 01:11:38,194
and then hand it over to the Federal Reserve to be forfeited.

827
01:11:39,234 --> 01:11:42,854
And then there'd be like $1,000 of counterfeit money in there.

828
01:11:43,054 --> 01:11:45,254
But his name was on it, so they'd write a report.

829
01:11:45,254 --> 01:11:49,494
It was done administratively, not to actually file a complaint,

830
01:11:49,634 --> 01:11:54,654
but it would say on this day, even though it might be me,

831
01:11:54,774 --> 01:11:56,154
but it was in this guy's name,

832
01:11:56,534 --> 01:12:01,394
so-and-so brought $1,000 worth of counterfeit funds to our bank.

833
01:12:02,074 --> 01:12:04,074
because they had to report it.

834
01:12:05,374 --> 01:12:05,814
Wow.

835
01:12:07,854 --> 01:12:11,234
Yeah, we're not even going to bring up the civil asset forfeiture thing,

836
01:12:11,314 --> 01:12:15,214
because I know that's probably a sore subject with some of our posts here.

837
01:12:15,354 --> 01:12:15,514
Yeah.

838
01:12:16,334 --> 01:12:18,134
Well, I'll just say this.

839
01:12:18,654 --> 01:12:22,394
These guys were all pretty high-end dope dealers.

840
01:12:22,394 --> 01:12:27,194
So it wasn't – and I get where you're coming from.

841
01:12:27,194 --> 01:12:33,774
um so this wasn't the guy who's like you know we pull you over like prove that you went to casino

842
01:12:33,774 --> 01:12:39,514
and we're going to take this right so you can so yeah we didn't do that i saw one of the guy had

843
01:12:39,514 --> 01:12:43,774
he had bank receipts for it all and they still took it he had to fight it for a couple years in

844
01:12:43,774 --> 01:12:51,534
court yeah it seems a bit unfair to me no it is it definitely is no we caught you on a phone tap

845
01:12:51,534 --> 01:12:57,494
selling dope. So definitely, definitely no. Yeah. Right. That's a whole different ball game.

846
01:12:57,694 --> 01:13:05,034
Yeah. Like the, the, the, the, I guess it wasn't a bank. It was a private safety deposit company.

847
01:13:05,174 --> 01:13:10,434
I'm sure you heard about this. I think it was in California and the FBI raided it because they

848
01:13:10,434 --> 01:13:17,014
had suspicion that there were, you know, uh, drugs and money laundering operations going on and,

849
01:13:17,014 --> 01:13:33,274
And, you know, stuff like that. Yeah. For me, that's what LX was referencing. I'm kind of like, I don't think that's, I don't think that's an okay thing, but you know, Hey, circumstantially it's, you know, it depends on, on the circumstance. Right.

850
01:13:33,274 --> 01:13:49,054
But unfortunately, at times, our laws are written with blanket statements that don't make a distinction between what is a legitimate, you know, real reason for doing something and what isn't.

851
01:13:49,234 --> 01:13:49,454
Right.

852
01:13:49,734 --> 01:13:50,194
Yeah.

853
01:13:50,754 --> 01:13:51,634
It's unfortunate.

854
01:13:51,994 --> 01:13:53,534
But it's like anything else.

855
01:13:53,534 --> 01:13:54,394
It's like the guns.

856
01:13:54,394 --> 01:13:55,854
Like you can put a gun.

857
01:13:56,274 --> 01:13:57,034
It's a tool.

858
01:13:57,934 --> 01:13:59,034
The polygraph's a tool.

859
01:13:59,034 --> 01:14:02,834
You put it in the hands of people who are going to abuse it and there'll be problems.

860
01:14:03,094 --> 01:14:07,594
You put these laws in the hands of people who might abuse it and there's problems.

861
01:14:08,734 --> 01:14:09,094
Absolutely.

862
01:14:09,974 --> 01:14:10,174
Yep.

863
01:14:10,634 --> 01:14:11,834
I know you're talking about the polygraph.

864
01:14:11,974 --> 01:14:14,854
Do you have anything to do with the voice stress analysis stuff?

865
01:14:15,054 --> 01:14:15,654
Do they use that?

866
01:14:15,814 --> 01:14:16,194
No.

867
01:14:16,754 --> 01:14:17,134
No.

868
01:14:17,314 --> 01:14:20,114
They just, they use the different conductance.

869
01:14:20,674 --> 01:14:26,154
And honestly, it's like, it's really just to give that extra edge.

870
01:14:26,154 --> 01:14:32,574
It's much like the difference between a general agent and a SWAT guy.

871
01:14:32,694 --> 01:14:35,794
Well, the SWAT guy has a lot more training and better tools.

872
01:14:36,254 --> 01:14:41,614
So the difference between me as an agent and a polygrapher is he's doing the same thing I'm doing.

873
01:14:41,694 --> 01:14:44,074
He's just like better trained and has more tools.

874
01:14:44,674 --> 01:14:49,774
And so the polygraph is one of those tools to try to get you to do what he wants.

875
01:14:49,774 --> 01:14:57,574
much like in SWAT I got cut saws chainsaws battering rams rifles that helps me to get

876
01:14:57,574 --> 01:15:05,994
you to do what I want to explosive breaches we don't do those really yeah you had to play with

877
01:15:05,994 --> 01:15:10,534
the flashbangs at least oh yeah probably fun huh flashbangs are great I would take them when I would

878
01:15:10,534 --> 01:15:17,974
talk to um like classrooms junior high high school I'd hold up a flashbang I said this is a flashbang

879
01:15:17,974 --> 01:15:18,974
It does two things.

880
01:15:19,074 --> 01:15:21,154
Who can tell me what those two things are?

881
01:15:22,154 --> 01:15:26,494
And then you have a kid going, flash and bang.

882
01:15:26,734 --> 01:15:28,034
I'm like, yeah, that's right.

883
01:15:29,454 --> 01:15:30,034
That's it.

884
01:15:31,794 --> 01:15:34,074
I do have a question that I just thought of.

885
01:15:34,214 --> 01:15:38,754
Are all FBI agents special agents or is that just for special agents?

886
01:15:38,974 --> 01:15:39,954
So everybody's a special agent.

887
01:15:39,954 --> 01:15:40,934
Everybody's a special agent.

888
01:15:40,934 --> 01:15:58,794
And then we have about half the population of the FBI is the professional staff or support staff that are not gun toters that play all sorts of roles everywhere from secretary to automotive and different types of analysts and administrative folks.

889
01:16:01,134 --> 01:16:06,494
And I just lost the terminology, but there's an SSA as well, right?

890
01:16:06,814 --> 01:16:09,294
Supervisory special agent.

891
01:16:09,614 --> 01:16:10,094
Yeah.

892
01:16:10,194 --> 01:16:10,734
So that'd be mine.

893
01:16:10,934 --> 01:16:14,214
Next, my first level boss, the one who runs the squad.

894
01:16:15,974 --> 01:16:17,154
Super special agent.

895
01:16:17,514 --> 01:16:18,134
That's right.

896
01:16:18,254 --> 01:16:22,814
Then we have the special agent in charge who's the guy who looks over the whole division.

897
01:16:26,834 --> 01:16:27,554
Pretty cool.

898
01:16:28,454 --> 01:16:28,894
Interesting.

899
01:16:29,394 --> 01:16:29,614
Yeah.

900
01:16:29,734 --> 01:16:30,474
Very interesting.

901
01:16:30,634 --> 01:16:33,914
But the place you want to be is the special agent because now you're out doing stuff.

902
01:16:34,554 --> 01:16:36,154
You start getting up in administration.

903
01:16:36,154 --> 01:16:41,394
You start getting up on management and you don't have the fun anymore.

904
01:16:42,174 --> 01:16:44,074
A little more pay, the less fun.

905
01:16:44,894 --> 01:16:47,594
Just more management and more paper.

906
01:16:48,514 --> 01:16:50,554
Lots more paper, I imagine.

907
01:16:50,734 --> 01:16:55,494
Although, I would imagine it's mostly digital paper.

908
01:16:55,854 --> 01:16:56,454
Digital paper.

909
01:16:56,794 --> 01:16:57,734
Digital paper, yeah.

910
01:16:58,174 --> 01:17:01,474
I would hope so by this time, right?

911
01:17:01,694 --> 01:17:02,694
But you never know.

912
01:17:02,694 --> 01:17:07,794
Well, until 2012, we were using a DOS-based computer program.

913
01:17:09,054 --> 01:17:09,994
Oh, awesome.

914
01:17:10,254 --> 01:17:10,454
Yeah.

915
01:17:11,194 --> 01:17:12,694
No issues there.

916
01:17:13,954 --> 01:17:17,974
You'd have to, like, shift F5 to go to the next page.

917
01:17:19,134 --> 01:17:19,534
Oh, boy.

918
01:17:19,694 --> 01:17:20,334
It was crazy.

919
01:17:21,494 --> 01:17:25,554
Well, you know, hey, welcome to the current century.

920
01:17:25,794 --> 01:17:31,234
Since then, it's been a very good technological advancement.

921
01:17:31,234 --> 01:17:33,554
So long time and then quickly.

922
01:17:34,694 --> 01:17:35,494
Very cool.

923
01:17:35,614 --> 01:17:39,734
I want to know the important things like a Crown Vic or a Tahoe, which is your favorite.

924
01:17:39,734 --> 01:17:40,734
I've had both.

925
01:17:40,934 --> 01:17:41,834
I've had both.

926
01:17:42,054 --> 01:17:43,954
The last vehicle I had was a Tahoe.

927
01:17:44,254 --> 01:17:45,194
So good.

928
01:17:45,334 --> 01:17:46,154
I love that vehicle.

929
01:17:47,374 --> 01:17:50,034
And then the one before that was a Tahoe.

930
01:17:51,294 --> 01:17:56,194
I hydroplaned at about 2 a.m. going to a SWAT op.

931
01:17:56,194 --> 01:18:02,134
crashed it got out pulled over and looked and went okay this is still drivable

932
01:18:02,134 --> 01:18:07,974
and when went on down the road and i told a buddy this he goes son of a bitch that's why i love your

933
01:18:07,974 --> 01:18:12,334
generation you get in an accident pushed up your vehicle and you're like well i got enough to get

934
01:18:12,334 --> 01:18:19,254
to but then i got like 15 minutes down the road and i went i don't know if my head's injured i

935
01:18:19,254 --> 01:18:27,534
need to go home like you know here i am who knows and it and it was a good thing i did actually i i

936
01:18:27,534 --> 01:18:35,214
was fine but everything i had was in a lock box in the back and it took me an hour and a half with a

937
01:18:35,214 --> 01:18:41,834
sledge and halogen to get the hatch open two days later wow so there's no way i would have been able

938
01:18:41,834 --> 01:18:47,114
to go on the operation because when i had a gun you weren't exceeding the posted speed limit were

939
01:18:47,114 --> 01:18:53,774
you no it was just honestly i was doing like 65 i mean it was really it was above the speed limit

940
01:18:53,774 --> 01:19:02,934
but like it wasn't it just i've never had just just hit it and slam that wall wow so i love me a

941
01:19:02,934 --> 01:19:12,594
tahoe tahoe i had to talk my wife out of getting one of those again we live on a small farm yeah

942
01:19:12,594 --> 01:19:17,214
And, you know, we have a lot of mud, a lot of mud.

943
01:19:17,634 --> 01:19:22,114
And Tahoe, I'd just be towing her around all the time.

944
01:19:22,474 --> 01:19:24,494
Well, I didn't have to pay for this, so.

945
01:19:24,494 --> 01:19:25,454
Well, that's good.

946
01:19:27,734 --> 01:19:29,054
I don't think I ever would.

947
01:19:29,154 --> 01:19:29,874
They're pretty expensive.

948
01:19:31,054 --> 01:19:33,194
And here's another question I've always wondered.

949
01:19:33,774 --> 01:19:40,094
What is the, there seems to be a rule, and maybe I'm wrong on this,

950
01:19:40,094 --> 01:19:48,934
but it seems to be a pretty hard, fast rule that you guys only drive American motor company cars.

951
01:19:50,274 --> 01:19:54,194
That had been the hard and fast rule until a few years ago.

952
01:19:55,034 --> 01:19:59,554
So now it is almost all American made vehicles.

953
01:20:00,434 --> 01:20:06,834
And I assume it's probably because half the foreign ones are made in America too and back and forth.

954
01:20:06,834 --> 01:20:09,814
So, yeah, that was always the case.

955
01:20:10,094 --> 01:20:14,954
and then maybe five years ago, we started getting like,

956
01:20:14,954 --> 01:20:18,714
oh, here's a Nissan, and here's a Kia.

957
01:20:21,374 --> 01:20:22,714
Who got stuck with the Kia?

958
01:20:22,994 --> 01:20:24,034
Like the new guy?

959
01:20:27,314 --> 01:20:30,694
Not the SWAT guy, because we got all our crap to carry.

960
01:20:32,334 --> 01:20:34,334
Like, hey, Joe, you get the Black Tahoe.

961
01:20:34,474 --> 01:20:35,854
Bill, you get the Black Tahoe.

962
01:20:36,054 --> 01:20:38,094
Hey, Fred, you get the Kia, man.

963
01:20:38,634 --> 01:20:39,994
Well, it wasn't a Sorrento.

964
01:20:40,094 --> 01:20:42,634
It was at least a little bit bigger size.

965
01:20:43,754 --> 01:20:44,134
Or no.

966
01:20:44,514 --> 01:20:45,334
It wasn't a key.

967
01:20:46,234 --> 01:20:47,194
The Hyundai.

968
01:20:48,214 --> 01:20:49,154
Same difference.

969
01:20:49,154 --> 01:20:49,574
Yeah.

970
01:20:49,714 --> 01:20:50,634
It's a piece of junk.

971
01:20:51,414 --> 01:20:56,974
You get those mid-sized crossover types, you know.

972
01:20:58,254 --> 01:20:59,874
Yeah, we ran it in one year.

973
01:20:59,974 --> 01:21:01,094
It wasn't horrible, but.

974
01:21:01,354 --> 01:21:02,014
Right, right.

975
01:21:02,434 --> 01:21:03,574
I'd be disappointed.

976
01:21:04,194 --> 01:21:06,434
Are the drone operators all little?

977
01:21:06,954 --> 01:21:08,314
I say little, sorry.

978
01:21:08,314 --> 01:21:18,034
all younger younger people they happen to be on the team more the younger ones you know and they

979
01:21:18,034 --> 01:21:25,974
go to the school for that but you know the drones have a battery life about uh 45 seconds so by the

980
01:21:25,974 --> 01:21:30,714
time they get in the house the guys are like ah the battery's down and i mean it gives us a little

981
01:21:30,714 --> 01:21:40,594
bit of assistance and we've had guys um use anti-drone devices such as brooms you know

982
01:21:40,594 --> 01:21:47,934
like i was thinking you know ew stuff or some electronic warfare like jammers and stuff like

983
01:21:47,934 --> 01:21:58,094
that no okay like a like a blanket a blanket a broom tennis racket nice maybe a pillow pillow

984
01:21:58,094 --> 01:22:04,194
fight maybe a pillow yeah does that work against those robot dogs with the machine guns on the back

985
01:22:04,194 --> 01:22:12,454
too uh we do not have those um i hope we we'd have like yeah we would have little critters that

986
01:22:12,454 --> 01:22:16,914
we'd like toss in the basement i and i talked to my buddy the other day i was like hey how's the

987
01:22:16,914 --> 01:22:24,514
operations been going he goes oh my gosh like literal basement was just flooded with feces

988
01:22:24,514 --> 01:22:28,014
and we had to go down and rescue the drones.

989
01:22:28,454 --> 01:22:31,694
He says we're like taking buckets and like playing the floor is lava,

990
01:22:31,794 --> 01:22:32,914
except the floor was poop.

991
01:22:33,114 --> 01:22:35,854
And, you know, like trying to go through and like pick.

992
01:22:36,114 --> 01:22:44,654
It's just every bad story on SWAT is just poop because some people are disgusting.

993
01:22:45,074 --> 01:22:48,754
And so, you know, that's where the dogs go.

994
01:22:48,754 --> 01:22:50,234
Like this is the room where the dogs go.

995
01:22:50,234 --> 01:22:56,734
I had a buddy who was like, he told me like, I don't know where your life sinks to where

996
01:22:56,734 --> 01:23:00,234
one day you just decide we're going to start to win in the toilet.

997
01:23:00,734 --> 01:23:03,434
Like the toilet don't work or to win in the tub.

998
01:23:03,734 --> 01:23:04,934
He goes, the toilet don't work.

999
01:23:04,934 --> 01:23:06,434
So we're going to tune in the tub now.

1000
01:23:06,934 --> 01:23:10,234
And that's just the way it's going to be as like, you've hit, you've hit a low point.

1001
01:23:11,434 --> 01:23:11,934
Hmm.

1002
01:23:12,534 --> 01:23:13,434
You've hit something.

1003
01:23:13,434 --> 01:23:14,234
That's for sure.

1004
01:23:14,334 --> 01:23:14,634
Yeah.

1005
01:23:15,834 --> 01:23:16,534
Oh man.

1006
01:23:17,334 --> 01:23:19,934
Sounds like you still talk to all your old teammates.

1007
01:23:19,992 --> 01:23:21,472
It's kind of probably like a little brotherhood there.

1008
01:23:21,592 --> 01:23:22,112
Oh, it's very.

1009
01:23:22,212 --> 01:23:23,252
A lot of camaraderie, I'm sure.

1010
01:23:23,392 --> 01:23:23,592
Absolutely.

1011
01:23:23,592 --> 01:23:26,452
I mean, you got to depend on those guys to watch your back when you're working.

1012
01:23:26,592 --> 01:23:29,512
So I'm sure that kind of transposes over to real life.

1013
01:23:29,512 --> 01:23:30,632
Not kind of a lot.

1014
01:23:30,952 --> 01:23:34,252
And it's not something where we all go, man, that was life and death.

1015
01:23:34,432 --> 01:23:37,452
But they are actual life and death circumstances.

1016
01:23:37,712 --> 01:23:42,172
Nobody is like afraid, but we're doing things where we could die.

1017
01:23:43,012 --> 01:23:44,552
And then we get through it.

1018
01:23:44,632 --> 01:23:45,992
And that bonds you together.

1019
01:23:45,992 --> 01:23:51,872
where like week after week, I'm doing stuff with these guys where we're surviving.

1020
01:23:52,052 --> 01:23:55,752
We're going through it and we did it because I supported you and you supported me.

1021
01:23:55,872 --> 01:23:57,692
So absolutely, it bonds you.

1022
01:23:59,232 --> 01:23:59,752
Yeah.

1023
01:24:00,212 --> 01:24:04,432
So how far along are you on writing your book?

1024
01:24:04,432 --> 01:24:06,972
Is it written now and you're doing back and forth?

1025
01:24:06,972 --> 01:24:07,312
Yep.

1026
01:24:07,512 --> 01:24:07,732
Yep.

1027
01:24:07,812 --> 01:24:14,332
Written and going through with a content editor and then copy editor.

1028
01:24:14,332 --> 01:24:22,372
Right now, the FBI has it to make sure that I'm not going to embarrass them, which I won't embarrass me more than anyone.

1029
01:24:23,812 --> 01:24:25,972
And so they got to get that back and then it'll be typeset.

1030
01:24:26,072 --> 01:24:28,132
So the book should be out in the fall.

1031
01:24:28,672 --> 01:24:34,672
It is titled Irreverent from Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI.

1032
01:24:36,392 --> 01:24:37,192
Very cool.

1033
01:24:37,452 --> 01:24:39,292
So what have they asked you to take out of the book?

1034
01:24:40,312 --> 01:24:41,772
I'm just kidding.

1035
01:24:41,772 --> 01:24:47,072
It's one of those things where I'm like, what are you going to do if I leave that in?

1036
01:24:47,272 --> 01:24:48,492
Like, you're going to sue me?

1037
01:24:49,012 --> 01:24:50,892
And I also know that there's nothing in there.

1038
01:24:51,052 --> 01:24:57,492
There's nothing I'm sharing that's, like, inappropriate to, like, tradecraft or something.

1039
01:24:58,772 --> 01:25:01,792
And everything else has already been adjudicated, so it'll be fine.

1040
01:25:02,732 --> 01:25:03,512
It's fine.

1041
01:25:03,672 --> 01:25:04,332
Yeah, it's fine.

1042
01:25:04,552 --> 01:25:05,452
Lighten up, FBI.

1043
01:25:05,872 --> 01:25:06,512
Lighten up, FBI.

1044
01:25:06,732 --> 01:25:07,372
Just publish it.

1045
01:25:07,492 --> 01:25:07,932
I should.

1046
01:25:08,212 --> 01:25:08,672
I should.

1047
01:25:09,672 --> 01:25:13,232
My publisher's a little sticky on that one, though.

1048
01:25:14,472 --> 01:25:15,312
They want to get the okay.

1049
01:25:16,352 --> 01:25:18,232
Is this a one-book deal?

1050
01:25:18,392 --> 01:25:21,972
Is this going to be something you follow up with another book?

1051
01:25:22,152 --> 01:25:24,012
Are you under?

1052
01:25:24,272 --> 01:25:38,360
I still got a bunch of stories that I start putting down like oh here some other ones So we see I think the way I wrote it is kind of unique because I telling the story about coming from being a pastor into this

1053
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:42,360
The stories themselves are pretty interesting, too.

1054
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:44,520
But we'll see.

1055
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:53,900
I think there's other aspects that I can pass on in another book that I think I learned from the FBI about leading and following.

1056
01:25:53,900 --> 01:25:55,360
So there could be others.

1057
01:25:55,500 --> 01:25:56,620
I enjoy writing.

1058
01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:57,560
So we'll see.

1059
01:25:58,100 --> 01:25:59,300
Well, that's a good thing.

1060
01:25:59,480 --> 01:26:00,340
That's a good thing.

1061
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:01,940
All right.

1062
01:26:02,060 --> 01:26:06,020
Well, I think we're at a point where it's a good place to start wrapping up.

1063
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:11,460
So first, first and foremost, where can people find you, follow you, find your work?

1064
01:26:12,100 --> 01:26:17,820
And, you know, where do you plan on your book being released for consumption?

1065
01:26:18,660 --> 01:26:23,760
So you can follow me on Instagram at underscore Eric underscore Robinson.

1066
01:26:23,900 --> 01:26:28,760
On LinkedIn with my name and this face, and I think you probably put FBI and you'll find me.

1067
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:38,980
And then my website where you can follow what I'm doing and when the book will be released is preacher2breacher.com.

1068
01:26:39,700 --> 01:26:40,720
Yeah, you like that.

1069
01:26:40,820 --> 01:26:41,420
You like that, huh?

1070
01:26:41,540 --> 01:26:42,200
That's good.

1071
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:42,460
That's good.

1072
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:43,120
That's a good one.

1073
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:43,820
It's natural.

1074
01:26:44,540 --> 01:26:45,400
Preacher2breacher.

1075
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:47,060
There you go.

1076
01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:48,600
All right.

1077
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:56,520
So we always like to give our guests an opportunity to give a shout out to someone that made an impact in their lives.

1078
01:26:56,520 --> 01:26:58,500
And this can be a historical figure.

1079
01:26:58,740 --> 01:27:00,460
It could be, you know, mom.

1080
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:04,660
It could be, you know, an old science teacher, whatever you want it to be.

1081
01:27:05,260 --> 01:27:06,660
Who would you like to give a shout out to?

1082
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:08,680
We were just talking about them.

1083
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:15,620
So I got to see my SWAT teammates just yesterday because they've got their tryouts going right now.

1084
01:27:15,620 --> 01:27:18,760
and so great to reconnect with them.

1085
01:27:19,240 --> 01:27:23,040
My back hurts from getting slapped on it so many times with the hugs.

1086
01:27:23,700 --> 01:27:28,920
So fantastic guys, the best, and one woman who I love too,

1087
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:42,668
the best SWAT team in the FBI and I was glad to be a part of it So Ben our team leader and the rest of the guys on the Cleveland FBI SWAT team then shout out to them

1088
01:27:44,488 --> 01:27:44,928
Awesome.

1089
01:27:46,248 --> 01:27:46,868
All right.

1090
01:27:46,928 --> 01:27:49,528
Well, thank you very much for giving us some of your time.

1091
01:27:49,628 --> 01:27:51,108
I've thoroughly enjoyed this.

1092
01:27:52,808 --> 01:27:54,588
Alex, anything you want to wrap up with?

1093
01:27:56,048 --> 01:27:58,348
I think we got everything pretty covered.

1094
01:27:58,348 --> 01:27:58,828
I don't know.

1095
01:27:58,888 --> 01:28:01,048
I could probably come up with a million more questions if you got all night.

1096
01:28:01,188 --> 01:28:01,468
I don't know.

1097
01:28:01,468 --> 01:28:06,908
second go around let's do it we'll schedule it for the next one i mean the only thing i was

1098
01:28:06,908 --> 01:28:11,808
thinking of is is i don't know how old your kids are but how did they uh how did their friends take

1099
01:28:11,808 --> 01:28:15,788
it when they come over and like hey what does your dad do is he sell cars or does he work at

1100
01:28:15,788 --> 01:28:21,548
walmart or my kids my kids are a disappointment to me in this realm everywhere else not

1101
01:28:21,548 --> 01:28:26,368
they just they never told anybody like they didn't want to tell people i was in the fbi and

1102
01:28:26,368 --> 01:28:28,908
there's a certain thing where you're like hey don't tell everybody but like

1103
01:28:28,908 --> 01:28:35,968
I would have my youngest go, oh, I have to go to a white elephant Christmas party.

1104
01:28:36,048 --> 01:28:36,648
I got to get a gift.

1105
01:28:36,728 --> 01:28:39,328
I go, hey, I've got this FBI water bottle.

1106
01:28:39,448 --> 01:28:41,308
She's like, why do I want that?

1107
01:28:41,368 --> 01:28:43,148
I go, are you kidding?

1108
01:28:43,408 --> 01:28:50,388
You don't think some 18-year-old, 17-year-old boy wouldn't want an FBI water bottle with an emblem on it?

1109
01:28:50,748 --> 01:28:51,828
She's like, who would want that?

1110
01:28:51,888 --> 01:28:53,328
I'm like, everyone?

1111
01:28:53,868 --> 01:28:54,708
It's cool.

1112
01:28:55,428 --> 01:28:57,108
They're like, yeah, that's crazy.

1113
01:28:57,108 --> 01:28:59,088
I mean there's times I guess like

1114
01:28:59,088 --> 01:29:01,108
you guys know like

1115
01:29:01,108 --> 01:29:03,048
I'm the lead breacher

1116
01:29:03,048 --> 01:29:05,168
for an

1117
01:29:05,168 --> 01:29:07,168
FBI SWAT team that's kind

1118
01:29:07,168 --> 01:29:09,208
of cool like that's a big deal

1119
01:29:09,208 --> 01:29:11,228
like yeah okay

1120
01:29:11,228 --> 01:29:13,288
whatever kids

1121
01:29:13,288 --> 01:29:13,968
yeah

1122
01:29:13,968 --> 01:29:17,228
what are you

1123
01:29:17,228 --> 01:29:18,888
gonna do kids kids are weird

1124
01:29:18,888 --> 01:29:19,788
I definitely did not

1125
01:29:19,788 --> 01:29:22,368
impress them that's for sure

1126
01:29:22,368 --> 01:29:25,128
later on

1127
01:29:25,128 --> 01:29:26,828
later on they'll be impressed

1128
01:29:26,828 --> 01:29:28,528
like yeah

1129
01:29:28,528 --> 01:29:30,708
pouring one out of my grave

1130
01:29:30,708 --> 01:29:32,408
yeah we're impressed with you pops

1131
01:29:32,408 --> 01:29:34,328
nah it's

1132
01:29:34,328 --> 01:29:36,908
you know I don't know how old your children

1133
01:29:36,908 --> 01:29:38,708
are but you know ours are

1134
01:29:38,708 --> 01:29:40,188
in their 20s now

1135
01:29:40,188 --> 01:29:41,128
same here

1136
01:29:41,128 --> 01:29:58,016
it starting to change some of that you know a lot more appreciation for you know the parental role at this point than there was in the teenage years yeah yeah so when you retired did they give you

1137
01:29:58,016 --> 01:30:04,256
like a gold watch or like a battering ram to take home or uh i whatever i could steal i stole

1138
01:30:04,256 --> 01:30:09,856
my buddies in the swat team so our outfits are their cry precision gear and they're pretty

1139
01:30:09,856 --> 01:30:16,216
expensive like three hundred dollars for the shirts and stuff and so i know how much that costs

1140
01:30:16,216 --> 01:30:21,836
and they got to save money so with all the other gear i'm turning in i turn that in and my buddy

1141
01:30:21,836 --> 01:30:31,376
liz who was working procurement for us and folded it up nice put it back on my seat said nope you

1142
01:30:31,376 --> 01:30:37,816
keep that so that was nice nice yeah it is nice nice all right all right i'm out of questions

1143
01:30:37,816 --> 01:30:43,276
okay no you're not but we can have him back on another time i'd be happy to do that

1144
01:30:43,276 --> 01:30:49,836
all right everybody first thank you again for giving us some of your time i really do appreciate

1145
01:30:49,836 --> 01:30:58,356
it uh and we would love to have you back on um all right everybody you know where you can find us

1146
01:30:58,356 --> 01:31:04,196
we're everywhere we are now hosted also on fountain.fm go check us out it's a value for value

1147
01:31:04,196 --> 01:31:06,116
podcasting 2.0

1148
01:31:06,116 --> 01:31:08,316
hosting site so if you feel like

1149
01:31:08,316 --> 01:31:10,156
dropping a couple pennies our way

1150
01:31:10,156 --> 01:31:12,176
you can do that no subscription

1151
01:31:12,176 --> 01:31:14,036
or anything like that and if you don't want to

1152
01:31:14,036 --> 01:31:16,136
then you don't have to there's no pressure

1153
01:31:16,136 --> 01:31:20,116
what else did I want to say

1154
01:31:20,116 --> 01:31:20,816
oh yeah

1155
01:31:20,816 --> 01:31:25,116
remember

1156
01:31:25,116 --> 01:31:27,096
wherever you are

1157
01:31:27,096 --> 01:31:29,316
whenever you're watching this

1158
01:31:29,316 --> 01:31:32,096
have an amazing day

1159
01:31:32,096 --> 01:31:33,896
see you everybody

1160
01:31:33,896 --> 01:31:35,756
thanks for coming by here. Yep. Appreciate you guys.