PART 2: Wayne Adam Ford: The Serial Killer with a Conscience?

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,160 [MUSIC PLAYING] 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:11,080 This is where we start to unpack what I talked about in part one, 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,840 where he's often referred to as one of the serial killers 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,120 with the conscience. 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:17,640 Mm-hmm. 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:18,520 That's right. 7 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:19,880 You did say that. 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,440 I kind of lost track of that during all the horrific things 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:25,280 I was hearing. 10 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:26,080 Right. 11 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:27,080 Yeah. 12 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,560 [MUSIC PLAYING] 13 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:40,200 Hi, Cassie. 14 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:41,360 Hi, Caitlyn. 15 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:42,800 Hi, creepy people. 16 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:43,560 Hello. 17 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,280 Hello. 18 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,600 I never get sick of that. 19 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,000 Hopefully you don't either, creepy people. 20 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,320 Yeah. 21 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,000 If you're new to our creepy corner of the world, 22 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,880 this is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about True Crime, 23 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,360 the paranormal, and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. 24 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,160 That's what PNW stands for, FYI. 25 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,200 If you're not, sticky. 26 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,720 We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode 27 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,600 for a little deeper insight into our topic. 28 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,760 So make sure to stick around if you're into that. 29 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:19,480 Yeah. 30 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,360 Or if you're not into that, stick around anyway. 31 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:23,880 Do away. 32 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,560 Mm-hmm. 33 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,960 This week, we're back to telling the backstory of Wayne 34 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:30,360 Adam Ford. 35 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,160 But we're going to get into the crimes 36 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,080 that would make headlines following 37 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,880 his eventual arrest as well. 38 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,000 I'm not really going to preamble this. 39 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:42,480 OK. 40 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,200 We're just going to dive right in. 41 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,640 So-- 42 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:46,240 Yay. 43 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:46,880 Let's go. 44 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:47,600 Let's dive. 45 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:48,440 Go for a dive. 46 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,160 She's not reaching for her glass. 47 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,960 I felt like I was giving her a strong enough cue there. 48 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,440 [LAUGHS] 49 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:55,480 To take a big sip? 50 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:56,600 Yeah. 51 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,960 And keep it close. 52 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,320 Let's recall that he's in his drunkenly wearing camo 53 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,920 to stalk my wife in the front yard phase of life. 54 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,160 Right. 55 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:13,240 So things are obviously about to start running downhill. 56 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:14,880 I can't imagine why. 57 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:15,400 Yeah. 58 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:16,440 Where is this going? 59 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:16,760 Yeah. 60 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,360 I really hope that was obvious. 61 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,080 I don't feel like I want to have to explain that. 62 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:23,960 If that sounds like something you want to do, 63 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,320 maybe check your life. 64 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:26,400 Yeah. 65 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,640 It's time to re-evaluate. 66 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:31,640 Respectfully. 67 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:37,200 1983 and 1984 were particularly rough years. 68 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,340 Actually, you should probably just assume moving forward 69 00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:45,680 just rough years if I'm being totally honest. 70 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:46,360 Got it. 71 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:47,360 OK. 72 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,160 Just one example. 73 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,080 When he complained about depression 74 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,280 to someone in his unit, he was hospitalized 75 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,960 in the Navy's psychiatric ward in San Diego. 76 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,200 His condition did not improve after his short-term stay, 77 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,960 which shouldn't be surprising because three days 78 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,880 is really enough time to solve anyone's serious problems, 79 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,080 even three months, in some cases, I'd argue. 80 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,080 Like-- 81 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,080 Yeah. 82 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,760 If anything, his behavior only grew worse, 83 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,440 because that's usually how these things work. 84 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,560 Yeah, especially if you don't get the help you need. 85 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,160 Eventually, at some point, after Kelly asked him for a divorce, 86 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,720 she did begin dating the coworker he'd been jealous of, too. 87 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:38,920 Oh, no. 88 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:39,920 Yeah. 89 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:40,760 Ooh. 90 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:41,400 Uh-huh. 91 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,360 That stinks. 92 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,560 So I'm sure in his mind, all of his greatest insecurities 93 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,480 and worries are essentially coming to life. 94 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:51,280 Yeah. 95 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,760 I feel like he kind of put that on himself, though. 96 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,120 I was just going to say, I feel like you kind of manifested 97 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,960 that into existence. 98 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,440 She's like, you know, I never really 99 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,560 looked twice at this guy, but now all of a sudden, 100 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,120 next to you, out here in the yard in your camo, 101 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,800 and just camping out. 102 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:10,640 Crazy eyes. 103 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,160 Yeah. 104 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,480 He's looking pretty good, actually. 105 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,240 Yeah. 106 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:16,920 I could see that. 107 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,880 It's roughly around this time that Wayne began stalking Kelly. 108 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,840 Obviously that doesn't seem like it's going to end well. 109 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:29,680 But thankfully, all indications are that it didn't last for long 110 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,040 once their divorce was finalized. 111 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:32,800 Oh, OK. 112 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:33,480 Good. 113 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,160 Got to get that paperwork. 114 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,240 I mean, shitty that he stalked her at all, 115 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,120 because that shits terrifying. 116 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:39,960 Yeah. 117 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,760 Don't love that. 118 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,560 I mean, it would be great if that was 119 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,200 because Wayne actually got the help that he clearly needed 120 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,320 for his increasingly declining mental health. 121 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,560 But in actuality, it was due in large part, 122 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,280 if not entirely, to his transfer to Okinawa, Japan. 123 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:03,000 Oh, so he went like super far away. 124 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,560 So he was like, that stalking thing, 125 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,360 that's going to be a little much from here. 126 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:06,960 Yeah. 127 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,120 It's pretty hard to pull that off. 128 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:09,880 God. 129 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:10,200 OK. 130 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,240 Yeah. 131 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,080 So one way or another, that was done. 132 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,200 Thank goodness for her. 133 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:18,760 I know. 134 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,440 After just a few short weeks went by, not much had changed. 135 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,720 In fact, he had another episode of a sort of medical and psychiatric 136 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,640 combination. 137 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,600 And this is where my thought is, what's 138 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,120 happening in a person's mind can eventually 139 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:44,960 take a serious toll on the physical body, like my ex-did on my hairline? 140 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:45,960 Oh, gosh. 141 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:46,960 Yeah. 142 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,560 It was like I was dealing with male pattern baldness a little bit. 143 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,600 Just losing my hair. 144 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,080 That's all stress. 145 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:56,720 Yeah, zero stress. 146 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,400 Do not recommend. 147 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:04,880 It wasn't until 1984, after several transfers and unsuccessful attempts 148 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,720 to treat his badly worsening physical and mental health, 149 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,400 that he was diagnosed with BPD. 150 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:13,720 Bipolar disorder. 151 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:14,520 Yes. 152 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:15,200 I knew it. 153 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:15,800 Yeah. 154 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:16,760 Not that that's a good thing. 155 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,840 I just was proud that I knew what it meant. 156 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:21,200 No, I mean, it's exciting to be correct. 157 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:21,640 Yeah. 158 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,200 I get it. 159 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:29,520 Then in January of 1985, he was honorably discharged 160 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,720 following his less than stellar service record 161 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,920 with the US military, which honestly, 162 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,720 I was kind of embarrassed when I got to the end of this 163 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,080 because I had to read and reread the source material 164 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,560 to confirm repeatedly. 165 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,800 But I did assume that his problematic behavior 166 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,680 was just going to escalate to the point 167 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,120 where he would end up being discharged dishonorably. 168 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:03,760 But I guess not. 169 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,520 He held it together just enough for just long enough 170 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,360 to eek out the honorable discharge. 171 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:11,360 Wow. 172 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,000 He eek, eek, right out of there. 173 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,920 From there, he took odd jobs to make ends meet 174 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,680 following his discharge, which is arguably one of the most 175 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,520 innocuous but gross words ever. 176 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:28,480 Discharge? 177 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,000 Yes. 178 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,960 Yeah, makes you think of nasty vaginal discharge 179 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,960 or penile discharge. 180 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,640 Oh, boy. 181 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,720 Sorry, everybody. 182 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:38,920 OK. 183 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:45,320 In 1986, at the age of 24, he moved to Garden Grove, California, 184 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,560 which is a really cute name for a place. 185 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,920 And I hate how these guys just ruin everything. 186 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,120 I was going to say it sounds very pleasant. 187 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:55,200 Yeah. 188 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Yeah. 189 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:58,600 It's at this point in the timeline 190 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,920 that Wayne not only meets a new love interest, 191 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,760 and the two would actually eventually 192 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,800 move to San Clemente together. 193 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,680 But he is also arrested for brutally attacking a sex worker. 194 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:12,800 Oh my god. 195 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:13,640 OK. 196 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:14,160 Yeah. 197 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,080 So yeah, it's getting real here. 198 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:16,760 All right. 199 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,400 He's got a lot going on. 200 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,360 This relationship would be a tumultuous one, 201 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:27,280 but it didn't fizzle out fully until around 1991. 202 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,600 And that is like five years too long. 203 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:31,360 I would argue. 204 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,200 Did you see me trying to math in my head? 205 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:34,720 I did. 206 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,800 How long did she put up with him for? 207 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,200 I am looking at the notes, and I can see the two dates 208 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,000 and can confirm. 209 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,520 It's a little bit confusing to parse this all out as well, 210 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,840 just because many of the women he had relationships with, 211 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:59,680 shocker, aren't super keen to be associated with him in the aftermath? 212 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:02,760 Or at least that's what I gather, because a lot of them 213 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,240 did interviews at one point or another, 214 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,240 and they were anonymous. 215 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,120 And there's also some other things, but we're not there yet. 216 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:12,360 So just-- 217 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:13,560 I'm not surprised. 218 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:15,760 I don't think we should be surprised that they're like, 219 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:20,400 yeah, let's talk about my serial killer ex-boyfriend. 220 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:21,200 Oh gosh. 221 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:22,040 Yeah. 222 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:23,960 Yeah, no thank you. 223 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:24,440 Right? 224 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,080 Never. 225 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:26,760 Yeah, no thanks. 226 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,480 Hashtag, never Bundy. 227 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:30,400 Yeah. 228 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,280 Swipe left, on Bundy. 229 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,680 It's a couple of years later that Wayne meets Elizabeth 230 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:39,920 at a karaoke bar and the two hit it off. 231 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,240 What bothers me about this is she was 19. 232 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:44,240 Oh. 233 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,440 And I don't know how she was able to get into bars. 234 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:49,480 Was it a bar bar? 235 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:50,680 Was it like a food? 236 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:51,520 It's like-- 237 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:52,880 Please, totally clear to me. 238 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,360 So maybe that's all that is. 239 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,800 And I'm making something out of nothing. 240 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,280 Or fake idea or-- 241 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,040 Yeah, that was very popular in the '80s. 242 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,960 I have it on good authority. 243 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,760 Or maybe they just didn't even card, you know? 244 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,600 A lot of places, I think that was kind of the common practice, 245 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,560 because they're like, well, listen, 19-year-old money 246 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:16,320 spends just as well as the rest y'alls. 247 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,280 She looks old enough. 248 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:18,120 Yeah. 249 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,040 Old enough for what? 250 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,560 Singing karaoke. 251 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:22,880 Oh, it's going to say-- 252 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,800 like, you remember that scene in Superbad? 253 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:26,800 Shhh, party. 254 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,880 This new relationship also quickly devolves 255 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,280 into an abusive pattern as had been the case with Kelly 256 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,720 before she eventually left him, as well as seemingly 257 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,760 every other woman before and since. 258 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,120 So that is the pattern is that it's a pattern of abuse. 259 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,440 So a pattern of patterning of abuse. 260 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,720 Pattern of he's the problem. 261 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:55,480 Yeah. 262 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,480 The escalation of the abuse did not stop 263 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,320 the couple from aloping to Las Vegas in 1994. 264 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,200 Now, did you know there's a difference 265 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:14,280 between aloping in Las Vegas and aloping to Las Vegas? 266 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,400 I have no idea what you're saying. 267 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,800 I looked it up. 268 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,720 You're saying the same words, right? 269 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,680 That's what I thought. 270 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:26,040 But there was a little voice in the back of my head that said, 271 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,960 they're not the same. 272 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,320 Yeah, grammar nerd. 273 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:30,160 What? 274 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:30,840 I looked it up. 275 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,320 So if you are in this city where you then 276 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,640 ilope because you're basically just staying in the same city 277 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:45,640 and you're aloping in the sense that you're not having a wedding, 278 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:46,160 OK. 279 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,720 That is aloping in Las Vegas. 280 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:56,160 If you alope to Las Vegas, you are somewhere in California 281 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,080 as these lovebirds were. 282 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,600 And then you're going to Vegas to alope. 283 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:03,400 I get it. 284 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:04,640 Yeah. 285 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,840 Fun fact. 286 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,440 Isn't really that fun. 287 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,240 But it is a fact. 288 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,000 Foring facts with Taylor. 289 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,600 Thank you. 290 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,880 At the time, she was 21 and he was 32. 291 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,280 The couple had a son in December of 1995. 292 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,200 But unfortunately, it did nothing to curb the abuse. 293 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,520 If anything, at a time when this young woman was perhaps 294 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,840 the most vulnerable that she had been in her adult life, 295 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,240 it arguably grew far worse. 296 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,520 He pushed her sexual boundaries, seemingly 297 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,040 wanting control of her. 298 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:50,280 And she may have actually inadvertently reinforced 299 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,600 his desires and expectations. 300 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,640 And this is not victim blaming at all. 301 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,880 She's not responsible for what he might have incidentally 302 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,440 misconstrued in his own completely disturbed mind. 303 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,200 But some of the things that she did at that point 304 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,560 in their relationship may have let him think that these behaviors 305 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:16,800 were acceptable. 306 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,280 Oh, no. 307 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,600 And I think she's just very young. 308 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,320 She's vulnerable as just a 21-year-old woman 309 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,480 who's dating a significantly older man. 310 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,440 But she's also now pregnant with their first child. 311 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,760 So before they eventually split in July of 1996, 312 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,080 and while she was midway through her pregnancy, 313 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,520 Wayne raped her following an argument. 314 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,440 And that was at some point in 1995, 315 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,960 though it doesn't appear that they called it quits for good 316 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,360 right away. 317 00:13:54,360 --> 00:14:00,280 They were on again, off again, for much of 1995 and 1996. 318 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,720 And it doesn't appear their eventual divorce 319 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:07,720 was final until some time later, quite a few years later. 320 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:12,920 Actually, their divorce papers were sealed once he was in law 321 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,440 enforcement custody, which obviously just 322 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,640 not coming to later as well. 323 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,640 But more of that, I don't really 324 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,480 want to talk about my serial killer ex. 325 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:25,360 Oh, right. 326 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:26,160 OK. 327 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,760 Though she was extremely wary of protecting their son 328 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,360 in October 1997, Elizabeth took their young son 329 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,960 to a pumpkin patch in California 330 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,880 so that Wayne could invite his friends 331 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,600 along to meet their son. 332 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,800 Oh, pumpkin patch. 333 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,720 I know, spooky season. 334 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,760 There are so many reasons why this case-- 335 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,960 I've actually had it on my radar for a little while. 336 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,840 But all of a sudden, the star is aligned. 337 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,520 And I think the pumpkin patch, that's just for two 338 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,320 at its timing, was spooky season. 339 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,000 But there's something else, and I think you'll see why. 340 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,080 Oh. 341 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,320 I have to think she might have been unaware 342 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,640 that following their initial break up 343 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,280 and leaving with their young son in tow 344 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,800 that Wayne had not only struggled to hold down a job, 345 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,840 but that he had also been arrested for animal cruelty. 346 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,240 What? 347 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,720 Ooh, dick. 348 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:26,840 Yes. 349 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,720 So I think you can tell what trigger warning is appropriate here. 350 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,040 And if you want to skip this part of the story, 351 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,680 it's fairly brief, so you should be missing only maybe 352 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,840 a minute or two. 353 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,680 And I've actually taken a lot of the details out 354 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,720 because I know that they would be particularly upsetting 355 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:47,800 to you right now. 356 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,560 I'm scowling. 357 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:50,080 I know. 358 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,560 Well, my dog is dead, Kate Len. 359 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:53,160 I know. 360 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,360 It's literally the first thing I thought about. 361 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,480 I read this on the plane to Austin. 362 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,920 And I was like, mother fuck, I am too deep into this. 363 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,160 I am not starting over. 364 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,840 So I have sanitized this particular section 365 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,640 of some of the details that would have made editing perhaps 366 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,200 a bit of a challenge. 367 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,200 OK. 368 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:18,200 OK. 369 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,400 OK. 370 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,200 Thank you. 371 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,600 Just remember that when you read this or you're hearing it, 372 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,000 and you're like, this is so fucking awful. 373 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,880 And I'm like, it's so much worse. 374 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:30,720 OK. 375 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,200 At the time, he was working as a tow truck driver. 376 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,440 The best I can decipher, it appears 377 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:42,040 that the animal in question was one of his employers guard dogs 378 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,520 and lived onside at the tow yard. 379 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,560 And according to some accounts, both of the dogs 380 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,920 were barking at all hours. 381 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,920 They're guard dogs. 382 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,560 At the time, Wayne was living next to the tow yard. 383 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,920 Wayne alleged that he had repeatedly 384 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,520 warned the owners that he would kill the dog 385 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,680 if it stepped foot on his property. 386 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,240 Wow. 387 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:07,800 He worked for these people? 388 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:08,680 Yep. 389 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,160 I did not know that in my initial reading of the account, 390 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,520 but I've had to-- yay. 391 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,680 Read about it several times now. 392 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,320 So cool. 393 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,800 Yeah, that's what I came to understand. 394 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,080 Great employee. 395 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:28,720 Yes. 396 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,520 Those may not have been his exact words, 397 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:39,640 but he did mean it, whatever he said at the time, unfortunately. 398 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,240 He was supposedly caring for his ex's dog 399 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,400 and feared that it would be hurt by the aggressive animal 400 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,560 if it intruded onto his property. 401 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,120 Which seems like a very convenient excuse. 402 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:55,760 She didn't trust you with her kid. 403 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,040 I'm not sure why she would have left her dog with you, 404 00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:58,960 but whatever. 405 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:00,480 Interesting. 406 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,600 When this all played out as poorly as you might think, 407 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,040 in the end, and the dog from the tow yard 408 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,160 died by Wayne's hand or rather gun, 409 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:15,960 he was sentenced to just five days jail time for killing it. 410 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,480 Of the incident, his former boss stated, 411 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,920 he was upset because the dog was barking. 412 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,600 That man declined to give his name, by the way, 413 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,680 so not just women declining to be associated with him. 414 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,560 Makes sense. 415 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:38,280 Quoting further from the bus, he kept firing rounds 416 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,240 in the dog after it was dead. 417 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,280 It's unclear whether he actually served the time 418 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,720 for killing the dog. 419 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:48,840 Why? 420 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,560 He should be in jail forever. 421 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,560 I mean, spoilers. 422 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,120 For the dog, though. 423 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:57,360 Yeah. 424 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,480 Wayne's mental health had seriously declined 425 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,840 as has probably become abundantly clear. 426 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,560 I hope. 427 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:06,560 Yeah. 428 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,440 If you're shooting over killing a dog, something is wrong with you. 429 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:12,920 Just a thought. 430 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,640 His frustration over his failed marriage, 431 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,040 living in a trailer without his son 432 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,920 surrounded by the ever-present grinding noise 433 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,280 of his new professional endeavor, 434 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,840 working at a cement plant as a truck driver, 435 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,320 whatever it might have been, he was really actually 436 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,840 beginning to snap. 437 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,360 Then in October of 1997, Wayne decided 438 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:40,480 to pick up a hitchhiker. 439 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,120 Oh, OK. 440 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,200 Yeah. 441 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,000 And the hitchhiker was the murderer, right? 442 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,480 No. 443 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,320 Yeah. 444 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,240 So the pumpkin patch thing wasn't the only thing 445 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,600 happening in October. 446 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,880 This young woman was in her early 20s 447 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,440 and had dark brown hair. 448 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,960 He introduced himself as Adam, which was an alter ego. 449 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,240 Was it? 450 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,040 Yep. 451 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,560 Which is never a good sign. 452 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:12,160 No. 453 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,360 Very few people can pull off that kind of nonsense. 454 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,600 And let's just say he's a far cry from Yonsei 455 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,440 calling herself Sasha Fierce. 456 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,440 OK? 457 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,720 Like, no. 458 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,440 Maybe having introduced her to an alter ego 459 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,520 was his way of disassociating from his actions. 460 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,480 It doesn't seem too far-fetched, but even 461 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,880 if I was a licensed forensic psychologist, 462 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,800 I've certainly never spoken to the man. 463 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,240 So it's hard to say. 464 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,520 In any case, what could have started off 465 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,360 as a consensual encounter, though I tend to doubt it, 466 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:56,520 quickly became rough, resulting in Wayne choking her. 467 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,920 He stabbed her repeatedly with a hunting knife 468 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,880 before beheading and dismembering her. 469 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,960 Well, holy shit, that escalated real quickly. 470 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,000 So he was planning this, right? 471 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,360 Like, I don't know if he was planning the entire thing, 472 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,520 but he had a knife handy? 473 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,720 I mean, there's definitely-- 474 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,480 there's an element of premeditation. 475 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,200 We'll say that. 476 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,600 Because only her torso was discovered in the Ryan slew, 477 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,880 just north of Ureca, California, she remained unidentified 478 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,920 even after additional remains were discovered 479 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,560 in January of 1998 on a different beach. 480 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,720 She had likely died less than a handful of days prior 481 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,400 to the initial discovery of her remains. 482 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:52,080 Then, almost exactly a year later, down to the day, 483 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,240 in October of 1998, another young woman's remains 484 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,400 were discovered, that of Patricia and Tames. 485 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,360 Wayne was still working as a truck driver at this time. 486 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:08,920 Patricia had been an upper middle class college student 487 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,840 until she dropped out. 488 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,920 Since then, she had been working as a sex worker 489 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,160 and struggling with substance abuse. 490 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,640 A friend stated that she had gotten really into crystal meth, 491 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,800 and it had since become her primary objective 492 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:30,080 to support that habit, which is generally the case. 493 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,600 That is what we call addiction. 494 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,840 After Wayne and Patricia came to an agreement regarding 495 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,640 the terms of the intended encounter, 496 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,960 she joined him in the sleeper cabin of his truck. 497 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,680 However, Wayne went off script when he began strangling her, 498 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,480 eventually killing Patricia. 499 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,840 Her body was found in an aqueduct in San Bernardino, California. 500 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,000 She was 29 years old at the time of her death, 501 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,520 which would be determined at some point in the course 502 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,480 of the investigation to have taken place in Hesperia, California, 503 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,480 sometime after she was picked up in Victorville. 504 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,960 The entire distance she traveled between getting picked up 505 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,160 her death and the callous disposal of her body was roughly, 506 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,840 it was just under 40 miles. 507 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,960 So that's not a long trip. 508 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,760 When authorities arrived at the scene, 509 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,880 it was immediately readily apparent 510 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,400 that the young woman had been murdered. 511 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,080 Oddly, one of her breasts had been removed 512 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,720 and could not be located. 513 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,120 Oh, why is that a thing? 514 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:45,920 It's a really good question. 515 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,160 Excuse the turn of phrase here, 516 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,520 but we're going to put a pin in that for now. 517 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:56,160 OK, because first we need to circle back to the months of May, 518 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:01,320 on through September of that same year, 1998. 519 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,240 On June 2nd of 1998, near button willow, California, 520 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,280 another adorable fucking name town, 521 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,200 another young woman's body was found. 522 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,200 Tina Renee Gibbs, a Tacoma Washington native, 523 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,360 was 26 at the time of her death. 524 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:24,560 She had been killed on May 16th of 1998, near Las Vegas, 525 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,160 where she had been working as a sex worker. 526 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,360 Later in court, both her mother and stepfather 527 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,800 would reflect on her earlier years. 528 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,680 Long before she'd begun a relationship 529 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,360 with someone her parents didn't approve of 530 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:43,840 and eventually fallen into the trap of addiction. 531 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,440 As a teenager, she loved family camping trips 532 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,240 and even went along with her mother 533 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,360 to visit nursing home patients. 534 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,160 Oh, that's really sweet. 535 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,240 Just fuck me up. 536 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,480 Learning of her murder was surely one version of the nightmare 537 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,640 that they'd already envisaged for years. 538 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,920 I can't imagine what all had been going through their mind 539 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:08,920 prior to that. 540 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,800 It's hard to watch someone go down that path. 541 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:12,920 Yeah. 542 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,840 And then eventually, they probably stopped hearing from her 543 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,840 for a period of time and that's got to be difficult 544 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,360 but in a completely different way. 545 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,840 Those several months had passed between the first 546 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,280 and second murders. 547 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:36,000 In 1998, things began to escalate quickly. 548 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,200 Didn't they already escalate though? 549 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,720 Yeah, we're really kind of just in a pattern 550 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,360 of continuing escalation. 551 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:47,760 You know me, I hate escalators. 552 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,200 Can we just get off the fucking escalator? 553 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,200 You actually hate escalators and escalation. 554 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,040 Yes. 555 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:56,800 Yeah, accurate. 556 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,280 On September 25th, 25 year old Lynette Deon White, 557 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:07,600 a Fontana, California was killed in Ontario, California, 558 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,360 not to be confused with the one in Canada, just to be clear. 559 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:13,200 Or Oregon. 560 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:13,800 Yep. 561 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,360 There's Ontario all over. 562 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:17,360 All over the place. 563 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,160 That was before it's believed her body was thrust 564 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:26,840 from a moving vehicle into a ditch in Lodi, California. 565 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,560 Wow, how? 566 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,040 Not really sure. 567 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,600 It's not a visual that I personally want to dwell on. 568 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,880 Yeah, I don't want to visualize it, but I'm just like the, 569 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,040 how, how, the logistics of it did one person do that, you know? 570 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:48,040 Yeah, it's puzzling on that end and how they know that. 571 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,640 I want to think less about that. 572 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:52,600 Yeah. 573 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,680 She had been dead for several days when her body was discovered 574 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,920 as evidenced by the advanced state of decomposition 575 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,760 that would later be noted in the autopsy findings, which is pretty horrifying 576 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,760 for a number of reasons. 577 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,760 Not the least of which is that this is a human being. 578 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,920 You just brutally murdered and to be so incredibly callous 579 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,760 with how you then cast out her remains. 580 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:25,720 So I'm glad we kind of focused in on that same point there. 581 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:26,640 Yeah. 582 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,880 I don't get it. 583 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,880 I can't wrap my brain around that. 584 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,880 Pretty sure that's a good thing, but I hate it. 585 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,880 But I'm also considering what most of us, if we're familiar 586 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:47,880 with the city of Lodai, likely associated with, which is wine. 587 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,880 Mmm. 588 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,880 Yeah. 589 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:51,880 Which wine? 590 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,880 Lots of wine, actually. 591 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,880 It's funny you mentioned that. 592 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,880 Yeah. 593 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:57,880 Lots of wine. 594 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:04,880 So while Lodai is busy growing roughly 40% of the wine grapes 595 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,880 produced in the entire state of California, investigators 596 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,880 are busy using fingerprint analysis to identify this latest victim. 597 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,880 Is it important for you to know that Lodai is the wine grape capital 598 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,880 of the world, at least according to the city 599 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,880 of Lodai's local government website? 600 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:26,880 Not really. 601 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,880 I think it's the harsh contrast between these two aspects 602 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,880 of Lodai that are just hitting me in relation to this case. 603 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,880 And you know how your girl loves a fun fact? 604 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:39,880 Yeah. 605 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,880 You know, just to try to lighten the mood. 606 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,880 And if it has to do with wine so much the better. 607 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,880 It was better than your boring fact earlier. 608 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,880 Yeah. 609 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:50,880 Can we not make that a thing? 610 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:51,880 My boring fact? 611 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,880 I give boring facts all the time. 612 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,880 But here's the thing. 613 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,880 Okay, because seriously Lodai, maybe watch your back 614 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,880 because I feel as though there are some very well known wine 615 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,880 capitals that may be giving you some side eye. 616 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:14,880 Like, I don't know, Bordeaux, located in France, 617 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,880 Adelaide, the southern capital city of Australia. 618 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,880 Ooh, light. 619 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,880 That's the best I can do. 620 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,880 And then, you know, the capital city of Lodai, 621 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,880 the capital city of Lodai, 622 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,880 the capital city of Lodai, 623 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,880 the capital city of Lodai, 624 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,880 the capital city of Lodai, 625 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,880 the capital city of Lodai, 626 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,880 the capital city of Lodai, 627 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,880 the capital city of Lodai, 628 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,880 the capital city of Lodai, 629 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,880 the capital city of Lodai, 630 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,880 the capital city of Lodai, 631 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,880 the capital city of Lodai, 632 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:48,880 the capital city of Lodai, 633 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:49,880 the capital city of Lodai, 634 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:50,880 the capital city of Lodai, 635 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:51,880 the capital city of Lodai, 636 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,880 the capital city of Lodai, 637 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,880 you know, sleep with one eye open. 638 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,880 (laughs) 639 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,880 Hopefully you've enjoyed this segment of Wine Facts 640 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,880 because it's about to get really dark here, 641 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,880 because there's a little bit more that we need to discuss 642 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,880 in relation to Lynette. 643 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,880 Unlike some of the other victims 644 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,880 that had been discovered up to this point, 645 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,880 Lynette's family stated that she was not actively involved 646 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,880 in any form of substance abuse 647 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,880 or sex work at the time of her death. 648 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,880 It shouldn't matter because of course that does 649 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,880 not make a victim less dead. 650 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,880 Lynette's mother stated that although Ford himself 651 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,880 had told investigators that she had engaged in sex work, 652 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,880 her daughter was actually just beginning 653 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,880 a new role in sales at the time of her death. 654 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:41,880 Aww. 655 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,880 Lynette had last been seen by a family member 656 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,880 on September 20th. 657 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,880 She was headed to a nearby store 658 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,880 to get milk for her baby. 659 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,880 Lynette had four children, 660 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,880 but this was her youngest at just nine months old. 661 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,880 She left to go to the store, 662 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,880 and then come back with the babies. 663 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,880 Mm-hmm. 664 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,880 Though her mother's comments had focused on 665 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,880 sharing the real story about who Lynette was, 666 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,880 her father wanted everyone to know 667 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,880 that he did not have a kind 668 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,880 or even vaguely neutral word to share 669 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,880 about his daughter's killer. 670 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,880 And as you might suspect, 671 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,880 he hoped that Ford would be shown no mercy, 672 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,880 saying, "I want to see him dead. 673 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,880 He's already dead to me." 674 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,880 Yeah. 675 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,880 But I mean, who could blame him? 676 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,880 Not only do these poor people have to come to grips 677 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,880 with the horrific tragedy of what happened to their daughter, 678 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,880 but I'm sure they're the ones who will have to explain it 679 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,880 to all of their daughter's children. 680 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880 How do you process your own grief 681 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,880 when you're faced with such a gut-wrenching loss 682 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:01,880 and then help your grandchildren 683 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,880 to hopefully do the same in a way 684 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,880 that doesn't just rip your entire heart 685 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,880 and family apart? 686 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,880 As horrendous as all of this is, 687 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:18,880 there are still a few more grim details to wrap this case up. 688 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,880 In early November, 1998, 689 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,880 Wayne walked into a sheriff's station 690 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,880 in Northern California with his brother Rodney. 691 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,880 After initially confessing his crimes 692 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,880 to his brother the day prior, 693 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,880 Rodney had spent the remainder of the day 694 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,880 trying to convince his brother to turn himself into the authorities. 695 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,880 Wow. 696 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,880 Rodney. 697 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,880 It wasn't just his brother Rodney and his Bible 698 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,880 that he brought with him, though. 699 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,880 Uh-oh. 700 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,880 After tearfully confessing to the murders of four women, 701 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,880 he revealed a plastic bag containing a severed breast 702 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,880 that would later be identified 703 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,880 as belonging to his final confirmed victim, 704 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,880 Patricia and Thomas. 705 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,880 That's not what I thought you were going to say. 706 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,880 I forgot about that part. 707 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,880 Yeah. 708 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,880 I did say put a pin in it, 709 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,880 which if you have read as much about this case as I have, 710 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,880 I'm sorry because that's something I left out, 711 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,880 but it's really... 712 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:28,880 I don't want to know. 713 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:29,880 Yep. No, you don't. 714 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:30,880 No? 715 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:31,880 No? No, you don't. 716 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,880 Oh my gosh, Rodney and his brother had to hear all of this. 717 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:37,880 Yep. 718 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,880 And I don't know how much detail he went into with his brother 719 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,880 before he went to the authorities, 720 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,880 but just hearing like that your brother committed a crime 721 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,880 and I'm sure he knew it was murder. 722 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:52,880 Oh, he knew. Yeah. 723 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:53,880 Yeah. He definitely knew it was murder. 724 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,880 That's why he convinced him to turn himself in. 725 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,880 That's just crazy. 726 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,880 Yeah. 727 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,880 Wayne told authorities he turned himself in 728 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,880 so he wouldn't kill his ex-wife and leave his son in orphan. 729 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,880 Wow. 730 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:17,880 That kind of reminds me of not the mother's day. 731 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,880 He had a very severe mental health problems 732 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,880 and he tried to turn himself in a few times 733 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,880 because he didn't want to hurt somebody. 734 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,880 Yes. And that he was ashamed of what he was doing. 735 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,880 His anger was mostly directed against his wife. 736 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:40,880 But apparently he was only becoming angrier with her each day 737 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,880 for keeping their son from him. 738 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,880 His lengthy confession appeared by the assessment of law enforcement 739 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,880 to indicate that his remorse was earnest 740 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,880 and his willingness to share details of the crimes 741 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:01,880 as well as locations of various pieces of significant 742 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,880 forensic evidence seemed almost remarkable to them. 743 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,880 So it wasn't just like a fake confession type thing. 744 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,880 It was like he, I mean, he had a bag of evidence with him. 745 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:21,880 Right. And there was more that he turned over to them via 746 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,880 the statement that he made in his confession. 747 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:34,880 This is where we start to sort of unpack what I talked about in part one 748 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:40,880 where he's often referred to as like one of the serial killers 749 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,880 like with the conscience. 750 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,880 That's right. You did say that. 751 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,880 I kind of lost track of that during all of the horrific things I was hearing. 752 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,880 Right. Yeah. Who could blame you? 753 00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:01,880 Honestly. I think it sounds like some of the local law enforcement 754 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,880 that spoke with him. 755 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,880 It's sort of, I don't know how to say it other than it almost was like 756 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,880 it was gaslighting them. 757 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,880 Kind of fucked them up a little bit because they're like, 758 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,880 how does somebody do this? 759 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,880 But also like he legitimately seems to understand 760 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,880 and actually be emotionally affected by the fact that it was 761 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,880 so clearly wrong. 762 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,880 And I don't know where I land on that. 763 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,880 It's, I wasn't there. I didn't see him confess. 764 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,880 But it's crazy confusing. 765 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,880 But you have to imagine that he did feel that way because he went 766 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,880 and confessed or like they weren't putting any heat on him or anything. 767 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,880 So yeah, I mean it's, I think it's a tough one. 768 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:53,880 It's not as black and white as probably a lot of what we read 769 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,880 and what we hear about would maybe lead us to believe. 770 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,880 Yeah, it's very confusing. 771 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:00,880 I don't know. 772 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,880 Doesn't make it any less horrible and he's a disgusting dickball. 773 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,880 Yeah, absolutely. 774 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,880 He is from under cheese. 775 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:10,880 Who? 776 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,880 He apparently even implicated himself into other murders, 777 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,880 San Bernardino and San Joaquin counties just in case. 778 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:21,880 Just in case. 779 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,880 It was the beginning of, say like the whole sentence. 780 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,880 Sometimes it's hard to like piece it together. 781 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:34,880 I usually can, but that's why I try to go back like at least a few words. 782 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,880 I was like, I want to say the whole thing again. 783 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,880 That would take eight. 784 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,880 He apparently even implicated himself into other murders 785 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,880 in neighboring San Bernardino and San Joaquin counties. 786 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:51,880 Damn. 787 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:57,880 He was held on murder charges in Humboldt County on a million dollars bail. 788 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,880 Oh my god, a million dollars. 789 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:01,880 That's a lot. 790 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,880 I mean, going back to 1998. 791 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:05,880 Yeah. 792 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:11,880 I mean, now I feel like that we wouldn't even think of that as really being as big of a deal. 793 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,880 I know the change spare change you have in a jar in your closet, right? 794 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,880 That's what I used to buy my townhouse. 795 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,880 No, I mean, it is crazy. 796 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,880 Obviously this was like 25 years ago, but it's cute. 797 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,880 You think you can get a townhouse for a million dollars. 798 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,880 Yeah, like a small one. 799 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,880 I was singing more like a shack in someone's backyard. 800 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,880 Oh, I mean, it's not quite that bad. 801 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,880 I'm exaggerating. 802 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,880 In the end, though he claimed to have killed only four women, 803 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,880 it's of course possible that there are more unconfirmed victims of Wayne Adam Ford. 804 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,880 Do you really think though? 805 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,880 Do you really think that he didn't confess to all of them? 806 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,880 I think it's interesting that there are two in these neighboring counties 807 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,880 that he implicated himself, you know? 808 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,880 And yet they are not confirmed victims of his. 809 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,880 Oh, right. 810 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,880 I do think that because of something we're going to talk about here towards the very end, 811 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:24,880 I think law enforcement is not quite done necessarily examining certain aspects of the case. 812 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,880 So it's possible that there could be more updates. 813 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:28,880 Okay. 814 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:34,880 So there was four confirmed two that he claimed he could have done. 815 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,880 Yeah, there's two that he's implicated in. 816 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,880 And that's a very particular choice set of four. 817 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,880 Yes, implicated. 818 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:52,880 So I'm not sure if he just mentioned having maybe run across someone that matched a description of another missing individual. 819 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,880 It could be that symbol, to be honest, but I'm not sure. 820 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:05,880 I'm not sure what the nature of that element, that segment of the conversation that they had with him was. 821 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,880 It's so hard to say. 822 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:08,880 I know. 823 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,880 I just felt like he was confessing so much. 824 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,880 He would just like confess to anything and everything he'd ever done. 825 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:15,880 Yeah. 826 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:25,880 And part of me was like, well, maybe it's better if I mean, I want everyone that he's harmed to be able to, you know, 827 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:31,880 get some form of justice, but maybe it's better if he doesn't rattle off. 828 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:42,880 You know, at a certain point, there's a number of serial killers that have claimed numbers far higher than what we can, I mean, even begin to substantiate. 829 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:52,880 And then it makes people just, you know, theorize and we've got these conspiracy theories that ultimately are not very helpful. 830 00:40:52,880 --> 00:41:00,880 No. In keeping, keeping the case alive in a way that helps them to be solved. 831 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,880 You know, there's nothing practical about that. 832 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:03,880 That makes sense. 833 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,880 Right. 834 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:05,880 Yeah. 835 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,880 I mean, he didn't seem like he'd be very boastful to lie, but who knows? 836 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,880 And I want you to remember that you said that. 837 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:13,880 Okay. 838 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:14,880 Yeah. 839 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:30,880 Though two of his victims remained unidentified initially, when his case went to trial, the jury found him guilty on four counts of first degree murder in 2006 and sentenced him to death. 840 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,880 So two of the victims weren't identified. 841 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,880 Oh, my goodness. 842 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:36,880 Okay. 843 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:42,880 He currently resides at the San Quentin State Prison in California. 844 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:55,880 As for his ex-wife, Kelly, according to an article dating back to April, 2021, she moved on with a man named Bob that she began dating after her split with Wayne. 845 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,880 They eventually married and had a child together. 846 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,880 However, from what I can tell, it seems like the couple didn't last. 847 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,880 That's based on that same article. 848 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:17,880 Sadly, she also stated that she had been diagnosed with a very aggressive form of cancer and was given about 18 months to live. 849 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:31,880 She talked about how she still carried a lot of guilt, but that at the time of her 2001 interview, she spoke out in hopes of helping someone in a similar situation. 850 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:38,880 Unfortunately, Kelly lost the battle with cancer and passed away in 2020. 851 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,880 No. 852 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:57,880 Given the fact that the divorce records from Wayne's other ex-wife, his marriage to Elizabeth, those records were sealed and her family has reportedly declined to comment publicly regarding Wayne's crimes, 853 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,880 or really much of anything else following his arrest. 854 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:12,880 There's not really any additional information or updates that I was able to find about her or their son that she raised with out-wing. 855 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:20,880 Gosh, hopefully they're just like in so much therapy and are doing so good. 856 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,880 Yeah. 857 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,880 Of course, by now he's an adult. 858 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,880 Yeah. 859 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:49,880 So it's funny because we look at these things in exactly the same manner because my next sentence, hopefully without the continued influence of his violent father, he has been able to grow into a mature and stable man. 860 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:58,880 I didn't pull at that thread. They have clearly tried to make an effort to keep themselves clear of... 861 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:05,880 I mean, even before he was arrested, I mean, years before, she was like, "I'm out." 862 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:06,880 Yeah. 863 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:07,880 So... 864 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:08,880 I get it, man. 865 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:09,880 Yeah. 866 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,880 I think it's understandable. 867 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:23,880 I found another article that shared a story about when Wayne had an encounter with a man that worked in a Christian book and music shop. 868 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,880 Remember, he took his Bible with him. 869 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,880 Right, okay. 870 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:34,880 Wayne really opened up to him about his struggles throughout his life up to that point, 871 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:42,880 and even revealed reportedly that he was very concerned that he didn't have a conscience. 872 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,880 Oh. 873 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,880 Before we wrap up, I wanted to share two statements that Wayne has made. 874 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:56,880 The first as the time of his arrest was fast approaching. 875 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,880 I hurt some people. 876 00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,880 I don't want to hurt anyone anymore. 877 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,880 Once you see what I have in my pocket, you'll know. 878 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,880 This latter statement was made following his arrest. 879 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,880 Most serial killers are proud of their work. 880 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,880 Not me. 881 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,880 Well, that is just so...it's so crazy and sad. 882 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:36,880 Because like his life is ruined, he ruined so many other people's lives for literally no reason. 883 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,880 One last thing. 884 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,880 Maybe you'll recall earlier in the episode. 885 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:48,880 I said that two of his victims could not initially be identified. 886 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:49,880 Yeah. 887 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,880 Well, obviously up until now, 888 00:45:52,880 --> 00:46:00,880 at least if you were paying attention and even if you were and you missed it, I've shared the names of three out of the four, 889 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,880 so you might have been a little confused. 890 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:12,880 Sadly, the very first woman he killed was a hitchhiker, who remained unidentified until just months ago. 891 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,880 Wow, months ago. 892 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:26,880 In June of 2023, Wayne's initial victim was the final of his confirmed victims to be identified. 893 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:34,880 Carrie and Cummings was identified using DNA profiling in combination with genealogy matching. 894 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,880 Wow, we're coming for you. 895 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:51,880 Finally, the 25-year-old Eugene Oregon native was identified through the partnership of the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office Cold Case Unit, 896 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:58,880 the California Department of Justice DNA Lab, and AUTHRUM Inc. 897 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,880 Wow, that is so cool. 898 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,880 Technology, man. 899 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:11,880 When she came back to 1997, Carrie had struggled with untreated mental illness. 900 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:18,880 When she refused to return home to her family, she stayed with friends in the area for a time. 901 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:29,880 These are the details that prevented Carrie from ever even being listed as a missing person or entered into any similar databases. 902 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:35,880 That's going to make it really hard to identify somebody if they're not even reported missing. 903 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,880 That didn't stop her family from trying to find her. 904 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:46,880 Wow, they searched the name-is-website when the internet was new. 905 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:47,880 Holy shit. 906 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,880 Remember, she went missing before Y2K. 907 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,880 Wow. 908 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,880 And they even hired a private detective at one point. 909 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:04,880 Now they can finally put her to rest with a proper burial. 910 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:10,880 It's crazy she was the first and then the last to be identified. 911 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,880 Yeah. 912 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,880 I was like, "How does that happen?" 913 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,880 But remember, it's the details of the crime. 914 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,880 There are so many factors. 915 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:29,880 The details of her background are what kept her from being even taken down as a missing person. 916 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:40,880 And then the details of the crime itself are what prevented them from being able to identify her because they found a torso. 917 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:41,880 Yeah. 918 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,880 Which is so horrific to think about. 919 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,880 Would you like to think about something else? 920 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:47,880 Yes, please. 921 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,880 Perhaps, to row? 922 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,880 I would love to think about some tarot. 923 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,880 Let's do it. 924 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,880 Okay. 925 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,880 As indie podcasters, we love to show our support of other awesome shows. 926 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,880 So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week. 927 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,880 Let's show them some love. 928 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,880 You can find their info in our show notes. 929 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:13,880 Hi everyone. 930 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:14,880 My name is Stine Fox. 931 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,880 I am the host of the Granger Baggins Podcast. 932 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,880 Here to tell you all about our amazing indie podcast. 933 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:35,880 On the Granger Baggins Podcast, we cover such topics as the old gods, witchcrafts, giants, tantra, and even more far-out topics such as homunculus and astro-theology. 934 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:45,880 You can find us on old bigger podcasting platforms under Grayhorn Baggins Podcast, and on indie platforms such as Goodbods and Kiyoshi on the same name. 935 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:51,880 Or simply go to www.grayhornpagas.com for the direct link. 936 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,880 Thank you all so much, and we'll see you there. 937 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:58,880 You guys, we're back! 938 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,880 And don't worry, we did get more wine. 939 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,880 Well, of course. 940 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:09,880 Okay. 941 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,880 What's this fucker's name again? 942 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,880 Wayne Adam Ford. 943 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,880 Twatt Hwaffle. 944 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,880 Yeah, because his initials are W-A-F. 945 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:22,880 [laughs] 946 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,880 Get it. 947 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:26,880 Guys, you get it. 948 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:27,880 Do you get it? 949 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:28,880 Hwaffle? 950 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:29,880 Twatt Hwaffle. 951 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:30,880 Hwaffle. 952 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:35,880 We have our little alters set up over here, but there's no space. 953 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,880 I left no space for us to put the cards out. 954 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:40,880 So I'm going to... 955 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,880 She's cheating. 956 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,880 I'm going to...no, I'm not cheating. 957 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:45,880 That's so rude. 958 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,880 I'm spreading them out so I can do a pull. 959 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,880 Okay. 960 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,880 Page of Pinticle. 961 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:55,880 Pinticle. 962 00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:01,880 I'm separating the two halves of the deck so that if we want to pull another one, 963 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,880 we know where we left off. 964 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:06,880 Okay. 965 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:08,880 Kind of fall colors. 966 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,880 Kind of goes with our vibe. 967 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,880 Looks like she has orange shoes. 968 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,880 Maybe they're red, I can't tell. 969 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:16,880 Yeah, they're like orangey red. 970 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,880 Yeah, and it looks like there's leaves on the ground, but those might be flowers, I don't know. 971 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:21,880 Anyway. 972 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:22,880 Hard to say. 973 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:23,880 Okay. 974 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:24,880 Page of Pinticles. 975 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:36,880 Our keywords are study, developing resources, naivety, curiosity, potential, and service. 976 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:44,880 Pages often represent the early stages of a matter or a time of study and gaining skills. 977 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:52,880 Some tarot packs picture the page of Pinticles as a young person gazing at a Pinticle as if trying to understand it. 978 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,880 Oh, interesting. 979 00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:05,880 If this card represents an actual person, it's probably someone young, intelligent, hardworking, and ambitious. 980 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,880 I feel like that kind of just relates to all the women. 981 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:11,880 Yeah, maybe. 982 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,880 They were young, they were. 983 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:25,880 Yeah, and the page oftentimes is, we've talked about it before in other readings where it's kind of a gender-bending card, especially with the modern witch deck. 984 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,880 Because it's spoopy seasons, I wanted to do the modern witch deck. 985 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:36,880 And then, you know, witchiness happening behind us. 986 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:37,880 So, our eight. 987 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:45,880 The page of Pinticles can point to the everyday details of your life and advise you to take care of them. 988 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,880 This may refer to your work, possessions, or health. 989 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:58,880 In some cases, this card may indicate naivety on a financial or in a practical area. 990 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,880 You're learning how to live in the real world. 991 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:07,880 The page can also show you performing a service for someone. 992 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:15,880 In a reading about money, this card may refer to contracts or other paperwork related to money, possessions, or property. 993 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:25,880 The page upright may describe the early stages of a project when you're discussing possibilities, seeking financial support, or laying the groundwork. 994 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:31,880 And then, you're advised to learn all you can about a money matter. 995 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:39,880 If the reading is about your job, you may be preparing yourself for a career or a career change. 996 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:45,880 Oh, we did have, it was Lynette, who had just changed jobs. 997 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,880 She was starting in a new role in sales. 998 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,880 Oh, that's interesting. 999 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:59,880 She was in a position in business, health care, or the trades could be profitable. 1000 00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:01,880 Interesting. 1001 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,880 He worked for that cement plant. 1002 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:06,880 He did a great job. 1003 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,880 He did have a bunch of different jobs. 1004 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:09,880 He did. 1005 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,880 He's kind of always changing jobs. 1006 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:19,880 The page advises you to work hard and learn all you can in order to reach your goal. 1007 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:31,880 In a reading about love, you may be more concerned with security, stability, and the practical aspects of a relationship than with romance. 1008 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:36,880 This card can also indicate meeting a partner through work. 1009 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,880 He was always driving. 1010 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:41,880 Oh, oh, I don't like that. 1011 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:48,880 I was thinking about kind of the girlfriends and how you said one of them at least stayed like way too long and... 1012 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:49,880 Yeah. 1013 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,880 I'm sure that was for stability reasons. 1014 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:54,880 That's true. 1015 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,880 I mean, I guess fear too could make you stay, but definitely fear. 1016 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:04,880 A lot of it, I'm sure, was financial stability type of reasons? 1017 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,880 Yeah, I would think so. 1018 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:17,880 It's interesting that it picked up on this card that it just doesn't feel like has a lot of other parallels at least that what I'm thinking about. 1019 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:26,880 I think after you finished, I immediately tried to forget everything you said. 1020 00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:27,880 Really? 1021 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:28,880 From the story. 1022 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:33,880 I was like, I'm having trouble recalling details from the story. 1023 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:34,880 Yeah. 1024 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,880 I think the thing that jumps out at me is there's so many phases of his life where it was like... 1025 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:48,880 It says he's doing these odd jobs to make ends meet or he would get a job that he would get fired or he would screw up or whatever. 1026 00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:49,880 It's interesting. 1027 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,880 Maybe it just picked up on that. 1028 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:59,880 And I'm wondering if maybe holding the two ends of the deck out was a good move. 1029 00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,880 Maybe there's another card next to it that... 1030 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:03,880 I don't know. 1031 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:04,880 Yeah. 1032 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:06,880 Why don't you look if that's what you're feeling. 1033 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,880 I'm going to, but I'm going to read you this extra excerpt first. 1034 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:20,880 It says what one does is what counts and not what one had the intention of doing. 1035 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:21,880 Okay. 1036 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,880 Well, like that really is. 1037 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:24,880 Yeah. 1038 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:30,880 With like the whole conscience thing, like you still did it. 1039 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,880 Yeah, you can feel bad about it, but you still did it. 1040 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,880 Yeah, I think that's really true. 1041 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,880 That for me rings very true in this case. 1042 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,880 Can you read that again? 1043 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:49,880 What one does is what counts and not what one had the intention of doing. 1044 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:50,880 Yeah. 1045 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,880 I mean, good intentions are just that. 1046 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:58,880 It doesn't mean a whole lot more than that. 1047 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,880 Who knows if he ever did have any good intentions though? 1048 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,880 I mean, he never had a conscience. 1049 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:10,880 I mean, I think to me, I sort of, I sort of started to spiral because I was having that same 1050 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:17,880 thought as I'm researching and writing this, but I sort of went back to you hear this all the 1051 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,880 time where people start reading about like a sociopath, right? 1052 00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:29,880 Or you hear about this, a similar argument when somebody is a narcissist. 1053 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:35,880 If you're concerned about it, you aren't one because they don't, you know what I mean? 1054 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:36,880 Yeah. 1055 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:41,880 So like to me, it almost was like, I don't know, I go back and forth. 1056 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,880 Is that something, can you like develop a conscience over time? 1057 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:51,880 I, you know, just from like seeing how other humans are. 1058 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:58,880 I mean, at that point, are you actually developing a conscience or are you, are these just learned behaviors? 1059 00:57:58,880 --> 00:57:59,880 Yeah. 1060 00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:05,880 Is the idea that there's a reward system for, you know, not killing people? 1061 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:12,880 Is that just more appealing than having people like dislike you or do you really mean? 1062 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,880 Yeah, it's interesting. 1063 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:15,880 Interesting thoughts. 1064 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:17,880 I don't like that. 1065 00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:22,880 I'm going to look at a card that was underneath here at the bottom of the deck. 1066 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,880 Oh boy. 1067 00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:30,880 It's the five of swords in reverse. 1068 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:31,880 Oh, okay. 1069 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:38,880 So does that not just like look, it looks like a man kind of turning back and looking sort of? 1070 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,880 I don't know if it's angrily or in a four-learn way. 1071 00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,880 It's hard to tell. 1072 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:54,880 I mean, and in this instance, especially knowing what we do about this deck, I think that's actually supposed to be more of an endrogenous character. 1073 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,880 Yeah, it's just like a masculine energy, you know? 1074 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,880 But just, I mean, that's the picture that I get. 1075 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:03,880 Yeah. 1076 00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:14,880 There's two other characters like in the foreground and there's two swords on the ground and then three that they're holding. 1077 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,880 So everything that I was saying about the picture holds true when you look at the traditional deck. 1078 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,880 So I'll show you this after. 1079 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:29,880 Keywords are change, adjustment, loss, destruction, conflict, indecision and sadness. 1080 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,880 Right on for this one. 1081 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:40,880 The number five signifies change and this card shows the time of adjustment after a conflict of some kind. 1082 00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:45,880 Sometimes the fight stems from ideological or spiritual differences. 1083 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,880 I could say that yes. 1084 00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:56,880 I do have some ideological and spiritual differences with the surely all of us do. 1085 00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:04,880 The writer, Wade Smith, Aquarian and some other decks show a soldier on the battlefield at the end of a fight. 1086 01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,880 The card asks, what have you won or lost? 1087 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:09,880 Was it he a soldier? 1088 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:10,880 He was. 1089 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:12,880 I always say soldier. 1090 01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:18,880 I mean, he was actually in the Navy, I believe. 1091 01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:19,880 Yeah. 1092 01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:21,880 I was like trying to remember what you had said. 1093 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:26,880 Reverse the five suggests pretty much the same thing as it does upright. 1094 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:27,880 Thank you. 1095 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:28,880 One of those. 1096 01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:41,880 When the card appears reversed in a reading, however, you may feel a great sense of remorse, regret and unhappiness. 1097 01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:42,880 Yeah. 1098 01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:43,880 Okay. 1099 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:44,880 Holy shit. 1100 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:50,880 I just got like the chills all over my body. 1101 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:52,880 Definitely. 1102 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:53,880 Remorse. 1103 01:00:53,880 --> 01:01:02,880 But is it genuine remorse or is he like, are you just magic at caught? 1104 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:04,880 But he didn't get caught. 1105 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,880 To me, this seems like right. 1106 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:08,880 Yeah. 1107 01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,880 I do have had some kind of remorse because he didn't get caught. 1108 01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:12,880 He didn't offer any of that. 1109 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:13,880 Yeah, that's true. 1110 01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:14,880 That's true. 1111 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:23,880 Sometimes it shows you making repairs or reparations after a conflict, trying to set things right 1112 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,880 and learning from your suffering. 1113 01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:32,880 Did he ever try to do anything like for the family, is there anything like that? 1114 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,880 I didn't see any indication of that necessarily. 1115 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:46,880 But he did certainly make illusions too that like the reason why he turned himself in was that he didn't want to leave his son in orphan. 1116 01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:47,880 Right. 1117 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:54,880 And so he's trying to take something that he's done horrifically wrong and not make it worse at least. 1118 01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:55,880 Yeah. 1119 01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,880 Reflecting on that, I don't. 1120 01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:58,880 Yeah, it's. 1121 01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,880 Oh, boy. 1122 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:09,880 The reversed five can indicate losses after a fight, perhaps a legal matter or squabbling over an inheritance. 1123 01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,880 I don't think it's the latter. 1124 01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:13,880 Yeah, probably not. 1125 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:19,880 In the end, no one really wins and you may experience regret. 1126 01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:24,880 It is interesting though that they said squabbling and that's kind of like a sibling thing. 1127 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:26,880 And he like went with his brother. 1128 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:27,880 Yeah. 1129 01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:29,880 That's such a good insight. 1130 01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:30,880 That's. 1131 01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:31,880 Thank you. 1132 01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:39,880 Squabbling, I really think of as being a word like when two siblings are in the back seat, like don't make me pull this car over. 1133 01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:41,880 Quit just squabbling back there. 1134 01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:42,880 Seriously. 1135 01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:43,880 Oh, shit. 1136 01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:45,880 This is just unreal. 1137 01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:54,880 If the reading is about your job, struggles with bosses or co-workers may cause hard feelings or impede your progress. 1138 01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:55,880 Yeah. 1139 01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:56,880 I'll say. 1140 01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:00,880 A conflict may damage your chances for advancement. 1141 01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:08,880 Like if you are institutionalized, conflicts with your employer, like when you, the dogs situation. 1142 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:10,880 Yeah, that too. 1143 01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:11,880 Yeah. 1144 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,880 That too he had so many conflicts in his own workplace. 1145 01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,880 Any had conflicts with his ex-wife's workplace. 1146 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:24,880 Remember, he thought she was cheating with one of her co-workers and then they ended up getting together. 1147 01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:25,880 Yeah. 1148 01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:36,880 It says, perhaps causing you to change jobs under unfavorable circumstances, which understatement in this situation. 1149 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:37,880 Okay. 1150 01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:48,880 In a reading about love, this card can indicate mourning the loss of a relationship or regretting a decision made in the heat of an argument. 1151 01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,880 Like maybe you got, you had a few too many. 1152 01:03:51,880 --> 01:04:03,880 You really tied one on and then you thought, I am literally going to put on all my camo gear and lay out on the lawn and wait. 1153 01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,880 That is just the craziest thing. 1154 01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:07,880 Yeah. 1155 01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,880 Regretting a decision made in the heat of an argument. 1156 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:11,880 Wow. 1157 01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,880 Well, you said they were arguing too when he did the bad thing. 1158 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:16,880 Mm-hmm. 1159 01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:17,880 Yeah. 1160 01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:24,880 Perhaps you feel betrayed, which is certainly something that he expressed. 1161 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:35,880 In some cases, however, it can suggest trying to repair the damage and make constructive changes, perhaps with the help of therapy. 1162 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:36,880 Yeah. 1163 01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:38,880 Mental health is important. 1164 01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:39,880 Wow. 1165 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:40,880 Wow. 1166 01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:42,880 Can't believe it. 1167 01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:47,880 It's something about therapy and we're just like talking about mental health. 1168 01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:48,880 Oh, my God. 1169 01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:49,880 Okay. 1170 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:56,880 So here is, for me, the significance of kind of the imagery, but also numerically. 1171 01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:58,880 So there are two women. 1172 01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,880 They have their backs to this person who's holding the swords. 1173 01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,880 And remember, there were two victims that were initially unidentified. 1174 01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:07,880 Yeah. 1175 01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:12,880 They're both now identified. 1176 01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:19,880 We have three swords that this person was holding onto and up until very, very recently. 1177 01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,880 His first victim was not identified. 1178 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:23,880 Oh, yeah. 1179 01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:24,880 Three of them. 1180 01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:27,880 It was almost like it was still. 1181 01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:28,880 Yeah. 1182 01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:30,880 Do you think there's a fifth? 1183 01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:31,880 I don't. 1184 01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:33,880 I don't think so. 1185 01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:34,880 I mean, you wouldn't. 1186 01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:35,880 None of us would know. 1187 01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:40,880 But yeah, I mean, it's so hard to say the other thing is I think there's, you know, 1188 01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,880 there's two that it's like they're still. 1189 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,880 It's like people, they're figures that are standing, right? 1190 01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,880 And then there's two that are on the ground. 1191 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:54,880 And it's like those two are the two that were unidentified. 1192 01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:55,880 I don't know. 1193 01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,880 It's just he has four victims, right? 1194 01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:01,880 And it's the five of swords. 1195 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:02,880 Yeah. 1196 01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:03,880 I don't know. 1197 01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:09,880 I'm just seeing a lot of significance there with kind of where the swords are positioned. 1198 01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:10,880 And yeah. 1199 01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:15,880 Well, I mean, he had more than just the victims that he murdered. 1200 01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:17,880 He had rape victims. 1201 01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:18,880 Right. 1202 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,880 Who God knows what the fuck else he did. 1203 01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:23,880 Yeah. 1204 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:24,880 Yeah. 1205 01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:25,880 Who? 1206 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,880 Anybody else feel like they need a shower? 1207 01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,880 Or is that just me? 1208 01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:38,880 Who loved listening to that tarot reading and want to see it because obviously, duh, 1209 01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:39,880 we're cute. 1210 01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:40,880 Yeah. 1211 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:46,880 Become a member of our Patreon where a video of every tarot read is uploaded with the ad-free 1212 01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:53,880 version of the episode each week, which is going to start feeling more significant. 1213 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:54,880 Hmm. 1214 01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:55,880 Very soon. 1215 01:06:55,880 --> 01:07:01,880 Those videos typically have a lot of extras in them as well that we cut out of the regular 1216 01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:02,880 episodes. 1217 01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,880 So you get to feel like you're behind the scenes a little bit. 1218 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,880 Lowell that. 1219 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:14,880 Patreon for those of you that maybe are wondering what the hell is that exactly. 1220 01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:16,880 Please explain. 1221 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:21,880 It's a monthly subscription with a range of price points and benefits. 1222 01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:27,880 Every member gets a personalized welcome card, a shout out in an upcoming episode and 1223 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:34,880 exclusive bonus episodes and a lot of other things, some of which we don't even know about 1224 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:35,880 yet. 1225 01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:39,880 A lot of other things like a mini tarot reading in your welcome card. 1226 01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:44,880 And if you want a special shout out, if you want us to say something different other than 1227 01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:49,880 your name or something, you'll have to message us directly on Patreon and let us know. 1228 01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:50,880 Do it. 1229 01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:57,880 If you can't support us monetarily, no worries because the easiest ways to support are absolutely 1230 01:07:57,880 --> 01:07:58,880 free. 1231 01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,880 Tell everyone and anyone you come into contact with about us. 1232 01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:07,880 Tell your dog walker about us because they need a podcast to listen to while they're walking 1233 01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,880 your dog or your barista. 1234 01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:11,880 Yeah. 1235 01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:12,880 Or bartender. 1236 01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:18,880 Or you can leave us a five star review on any platform where you're listening to us. 1237 01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:24,880 And if you're not listening to us on Apple, that's fine, but I mean, go there and leave us 1238 01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,880 one there too because that's the big one. 1239 01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:28,880 That's a big boy. 1240 01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,880 Just sprinkle those stars all around town. 1241 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:32,880 You know what I mean? 1242 01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:33,880 Yes. 1243 01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:39,880 If you have any true crime paranormal or witchy stories to submit for a listener appreciation 1244 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:47,880 episodes called the creepy people chronicles, please email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com 1245 01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:54,880 or you can also use we have a handy dandy little Google contact form you can 1246 01:08:54,880 --> 01:09:00,680 fill out and tell us your story and the link to that would be in the episode description. 1247 01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:06,240 You're always welcome to remain anonymous if you write in with a story and remember your 1248 01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:13,440 stories do not have to be coming from the Pacific Northwest specifically if you want to share. 1249 01:09:13,440 --> 01:09:20,520 If there is a story from somewhere in Europe or Asia or Africa, follow us on all of the 1250 01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:21,520 socials. 1251 01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:26,400 If you don't want to miss out on photos of our tarot cards, our beautiful altar setups, 1252 01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:28,880 which today there is a lot of fire. 1253 01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,280 There is a lot of pyrotechnics. 1254 01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:32,280 Yes. 1255 01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:33,560 Caitlin went a little crazy. 1256 01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:39,080 You can find our website or our link tree in the description of this episode to check out 1257 01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:49,960 all of the fun that we have to offer. 1258 01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,440 There are so many links on the link tree. 1259 01:09:52,440 --> 01:09:54,520 There are links to the links. 1260 01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:57,560 Have a creepy ass day. 1261 01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:01,720 See you next Tuesday. 1262 01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:06,520 Whenever we recover from this, I don't know. 1263 01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:07,520 We gotta go. 1264 01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:09,520 See this fucker again. 1265 01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:11,680 Hopefully you don't confess to any more crimes. 1266 01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:12,680 No, thank you. 1267 01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,520 Unless it's gonna help somebody, I guess. 1268 01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:19,320 I was like actually confess more. 1269 01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:24,520 Yeah, confess more, but also don't do the thing in the first place to have to confess to 1270 01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:25,520 it. 1271 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:26,520 Yeah. 1272 01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:27,520 You know, does that make sense? 1273 01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:28,520 Yes, I agree. 1274 01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:29,520 I concur. 1275 01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:31,520 Okay, but really though. 1276 01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:32,520 Bye. 1277 01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:33,520 Bye. 1278 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:43,520 Bye. 1279 01:10:43,520 --> 01:11:09,560 Do you want me to splash some cold wine on you? 1280 01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:10,560 Yeah. 1281 01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:11,560 Of course. 1282 01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:17,120 I'd like to just check it and throw my part. 1283 01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:18,120 Better than butt-chugging. 1284 01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:22,160 I was just thinking that face-chugging better than butt-chugging. 1285 01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:28,600 Outtake, outtake, anyone?