Target SoHo, Amazon Rush & The Instacart Dynamic Pricing Brouhaha | Fast Five

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Today is December 17, 2025.

I'm one of your hosts and Mazinga.

And I'm one of your other hosts, Chris Walton.

And we are here once again for the final fast five of 2025 to discuss all the top headlines from the past week making waves in the world of omnichannel retailing.

Chris, it's the last show, 2025.

I have to know what is on Your bucket list.

We're going to be taking a two week break.

Programming note, what's on your bucket list for holiday break 2025?

What are you going to do?

Oh, oh man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read a lot of books.

I got a whole list of books I'm working on.

I'm.

I got introduced to Amer Tolis.

I don't know if that's how you say his name, but the gentleman in Moscow, great book.

Read the first one, could read his second one here during the break.

So I'm excited about that.

Gonna spend some time with the family.

You know, I'm very much looking forward to this break and we've had a busy, busy content year when it comes to 2025 and I think at least I, I don't want to speak for you, but I'm very much looking forward to this break.

But what do you got on tap?

I. Yeah, my husband's actually going on a guys trip this weekend, so I get to kind of hang out and be solo for a few days and I'm actually looking, secretly looking forward to it.

Just a quiet weekend and, and then we're going out to the, my boys and I are going to go out to Salt Lake to go skiing before January madness kicks in.

I always like to spend a little time with a family before NRF starts and then we're gone and it's February, next thing we know it.

So that's, that's on my agenda.

Yeah, well, I like your weekend plans a lot better than mine.

I'm still nursing my kid.

My 11 year old had his tonsils out and man, that's rough.

Like he can't, dude's like four or five days out, he still can't even talk.

Like he is in a ton of pain.

So just been nursing him playing Dr. Dad here for the past week and I'm getting ready for, for Dr. Dad to get fired at some point because I need a break from that.

But, but yeah, you mentioned nrf.

Like what are you, what are you most excited about for NRF too?

Yeah.

So there's a lot to stay tuned for at nrf.

So number one, as we always do, we'll be bringing you live coverage.

Tons of interviews with retailers talking about what they're looking forward to for 26, what, what technology they're interested in.

Just getting a little bit of background from them.

We'll be recording from the Fusion group booth, number 49 21, Sunday through Tuesday.

So if you're out at NRF, please stop by, come say hello.

We have a little recording booth set up in the Fusion Group booth.

It's going to be hard to miss.

They're usually one of the biggest booths that's on the floor, so I think.

They are the biggest booth, actually.

Yeah.

At least getting close to it.

Yeah, for sure.

Yes.

Yeah.

So make sure to check that out.

And then on Monday night, there are a couple of slots left.

We are doing a tour of the Zara flagship store at Hudson Yards.

And so we're going to go in, Zara is going to be talking with us about some of the technology investments that they made.

Cleveron is going to be there.

They're going to be talking about the automated parcel system that they set up in that Zara store and Zara stores around the world.

So make sure you reach out to me directly if you want, save a spot in that tour.

And then, of course, you know, we'll be hitting up various events, Chris.

I mean, there's always like four or five per night that are going on.

So send us over a message and let us know where you'll be and hopefully we'll see you there.

Yeah.

NRF is an alcohol extreme.

I think given the amount of free alcohol that flows at all those parties every single, every single, every single night.

You're right.

I mean, there's, there's a party every hour on the hour in New York.

So.

All right.

And well, let's do it.

Let's send off 2025 with a bang in this week's Fast 5.

We've got news on Instacart's pricing kerfuffle, November's record online grocery sales, Target's new Soho House store, Ashley going all in on agentic AI via Perplexity.

And David Dorff, one of our favorite recurring guests, stops by for five insightful minutes to give us his insightful predictions on AI for 2026.

But we begin today with with news out of Amazon that I just can't, I just can't wait to rush into.

Ann oh, that's because Amazon has planned its new rush pickup service.

Chris.

According to Business Insider, Amazon is developing a rush pickup service that will let shoppers collect their orders at Amazon owned stores all within an hour, which comes from a reported internal document and a person familiar with the matter.

Shoppers will be able to place a unified order from both Amazon's online marketplace and and items stocked in Amazon owned stores.

The document explained the tech giant plans to pilot launch the new program in at least one metro area by the first quarter of 2026, according to this document.

However, it is uncertain that whether that timeline is still in effect.

Also said the person familiar with the matter who spoke on a condition of anonymous anonymity.

Anon.

I cannot ever say that word.

A non.

He wanted to be he or she wanted to be anonymous.

Anonymity.

Thank you.

Because they were not authorized to speak to the press.

An Amazon spokesperson also declined to comment on this story.

So, Chris, a lot of, a lot of he said, she said in this, in this headline.

But would you advise Amazon to proceed with its Rush delivery service if this is indeed on its way in 2026?

100%, no.

And I do think we have to look at the source here.

You know, Business Insider.

Yeah.

Questionable sometimes in terms of what they're covering.

And generally when you see headlines like this too, where the source is anonymous and there's a memo, it's either one of two things.

Either the company is purposely leaking it themselves and doesn't want to talk about it, or you got a disgruntled person who just wants to get, you know, something out on the company.

So.

So that's the background here as I look through this story through my lens or my vantage point.

And so.

But I would not support this pilot.

And I can think of a whole host of reasons why.

I think, number one, this isn't why I go into the Amazon app, generally speaking.

Like, I don't go there to coordinate a pickup order.

And two, for that reason, I would be leaning into things like faster delivery first, which they've been doing.

And first and foremost, I'd be hitting that up.

Play to your strength.

Speed has always been Amazon's strength.

It's always been a key part of the flywheel.

I mean, they're trying to do that with Rush, but I think the speed of at home delivery in 30 minutes is even more compelling.

And then third, this is the, probably the biggest point, like operationally, like, where am I going to do this as a consumer at a Whole Foods, which is already filled to the brim with long lines for Amazon returns and boxes and the, and the Whole Foods parking lots are disasters.

Like, I remember that running joke like 10 years ago.

Namaste for the Whole Foods parking lot means it's code for eat, you know what and die.

Which is hilarious because that's what a Whole Foods parking lot is like.

They're usually very small, very constrained, they're not easy to get around.

And now what?

I'm going to ask Whole Foods employees to bring out things like weights and clothes to people's cars or to people that are just happy to stop by there.

So I just don't like it.

And Walmart at the end of the day, if you look at it competitively too, Walmart at the end of the day makes it easier than Amazon and will forever be easier than Amazon because of its locations, because of its design, of its physical operations.

And so they're going to win this battle at scale.

So this is a road to nowhere, in my opinion.

I'm, I'm gonna slightly disagree with you.

I don't disagree with the points that you made because there's no denying that this is a massive, massive overhaul of if we're using Whole Foods as an example, which I think you make the, the right point that, that seems to me like that's the best case scenario here, would be turning this in the Whole Foods locations into your rapid pickup points.

But, but I actually think this could, I would be piloting this because I think that it could be one of the smartest moves that we've seen out of Amazon as of late.

I know you mentioned it's not why you go into your Amazon app now, but I think that's because it's not, that's not the destination that like we've said in, in shows past, you're going there to like find, you know, a phone charger and get it shipped to you quickly.

I would say if, if you're able to, which we've not been able to before, if you were able to pick up an Amazon order that included milk, eggs and the phone charger, would you do it?

Maybe.

I mean, we just haven't had this opportunity before.

And I actually think that if they are moving more towards this, like get your Doritos, Pepsi and Whole Foods products all in one trip, like this method makes the most sense to me in order to do that, because it is a trip where you're, you know, you're doing that at Walmart, you're doing that at Target, and this could make sense.

But I think that you still have a big hurdle to get over, and that's the question that I would have is like, how are you going to operationalize this at a Whole Foods Foods?

Do you have the back of house space to store like all of these products?

Are you working with, you know, your same, same day delivery warehouse and you're delivering orders?

Like, there's a lot of things logistically that have to make sense, but if they could figure it out, I do actually like it and I think it starts to make them a little bit more defensible against Walmart, who's just completely eating their lunch.

I. I don't know.

The last point I make is I think my answer to all those questions would be no.

And at the end of the day, Walmart has nine times the amount of stores that Whole Foods has throughout the US So it's just an uphill battle if that's the only place you can have.

And that's what the story alludes to.

It says Whole Foods, Amazon Go and Amazon like Fresh, which is like, you know, a pittance comparatively.

So.

So yeah, I just don't see it.

All right, headline number two Instacart's AI enabled pricing experiments may be inflating your grocery bill.

That is, according to a Consumer Reports and Groundwork Collaborative investigation.

According to a post on ConsumerReports.org, the investigation found that some grocery prices differed by as much as 23% per item from one Instacart customer to the next.

There's lots to sort through here because we want to get the background information correct, so please bear with me.

In September, 437 volunteers were divided into four groups during a video meeting.

For each group, the volunteers simultaneously shopped on Instacart for identical baskets of 18 to 20 goods from the same retailers, Safeway and Target.

A fifth test looking at Safeway and Target was conducted in person with volunteers in Washington, D.C. this process enabled Consumer Reports and Groundwork Collaborative to control for some of the factors that might have influenced the prices the shoppers saw, including the specific store they shopped at the time of day and the day of the week.

And in a final test conducted online with volunteers in November, they looked at Instacart purchases at additional grocery retailers and found evidence of price experimentation at four additional chains, Albertsons, Costco, Kroger and Sprouts Farmers Market.

Instacart confirmed that the findings accurately reflected its pricing experiments and strategies, which it said were ongoing at 10 partnering grocery retailers at the time of the investigation.

The company, however, declined to name them and said the experiments affect only a small portion of its retail partners, have a limited impact on consumer pocketbooks, and are similar to well established in store pricing practices.

Hmm.

And this is also the A and M Put yout on the Spot Question of the Week and A and M Wants to Know Quote While algorithmic pricing as described in this article is neither illegal nor new, do you feel any differently about retailers choosing to apply this to basic needs and essential categories like grocery than for more discretionary categories like travel and hospitality, which are more supply and demand driven.

The floor is yours.

So I think it's important for me in answering this question to separate algorithmic pricing at a grocery store and algorithmic pricing for an Instacart order from a grocery store.

I think what it comes down to for me is that Instacart is still a convenience business.

So I think as, as long as they're transparent, which a lot of the travel and hospitality providers that you mentioned about surge pricing or the fact that there is going to be, you know, supply and demand factored into this, Well, I don't personally like it.

I can see the business case for Instacart doing it.

I also think that a big part of this, like you see with Uber or, you know, travel sites too, is that you're going to get consumers who stop using it as a result and default then to grocer's own programs for either delivery or curbside pickup.

So I think that, all in all, I understand the business case.

I think it's, it's a, it's harder for me in the case of just your local grocer, you know, doing price changes up and down, you know, when somebody's going into the grocery store.

But I think in the case of convenience, I can understand where this makes sense.

But the bigger question for me, Chris, on this one is that now that consumers have access to AI tools to just take their shopping list, drop it into Perplexity or chatgpt and be like, find me the cheapest price for this basket.

And what, you know, what they're doing now with Instacart is scraping all these sites anyway.

These AI engines can scrape the sites.

They can say, here's what you're going to get.

Here's the cheapest, you know, the cheapest place for you to shop for your entire basket.

Yes, you could have it delivered or you could pick it up.

Like these are all the prices.

Like consumers have that available and at their fingertips now.

So I think the bigger issue is for the grocery industry to realize that they're going to have to wait.

They're going to have to really double down on their loyalty programs.

They're going to have to figure out ways that they, you know, offer their own buy online pickup and store delivery.

That's going to get people to kind of maybe look beyond the total basket and see what other benefits are they can get from shopping from that retailer over another.

But ultimately price is going to, going to play a huge component here.

And the transparency they have with these AI tools I think kind of puts this whole thing to bed for the grocery industry.

It's.

It's unfortunate.

But what are your thoughts here?

Where.

Where do you land?

Do you think it's fair to put this on?

On, you know, essential items like grocery?

Yeah, I mean, I think I agree with your point about the impact that I will have on this business.

We can touch on that a little bit more.

The part I'm not sure I agree with you on is I took from what you said is that you're okay with Instacart doing this, but you're not okay with your local grocer doing it online.

Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, I think that you're.

That Instacart still a convenience service, and that is different to me than your local grocer.

I don't think it's going to be possible for local grocers because of AI, but I also think that it's not.

Going to be possible for anyone because of AI, but just out of the question.

So, yeah, let's take it out of the equation.

So, like, if a.

Are you okay with Instacart doing this online, using dynamic pricing online, but not okay with your local grocer doing dynamic pricing online?

Because both could easily do it.

I mean, it's just.

Yes.

Pricing.

They are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I think that I don't like that grocers are doing it.

I don't like it.

I can understand the business case for it, but I don't like that they're doing that.

I think grocery right now is an area where it's just too.

It's too difficult for people to be getting the basic needs that they have in grocery.

And if I were a grocer, I.

Instead of, you know, more price changes, I would be focusing on how do I get them in with my loyalty programs or what other offers or partnerships could I put in place so that I can make up for, like, using the.

Getting money from the data that I have about my customers instead of using it to push prices up and down.

Yeah, that's where.

I mean, I agree with that.

I think where I disagree is actually, I don't think Instacart should be doing this either.

I think, you know, when you start talking about trying to take advantage of people and trying to gain money on the margins for items that they have to buy.

Now, granted, it's a luxury to use Instacart, but there's a lot of people that also have to use Instacart.

And there's also snap benefits that are being deployed on Instacart and how is that being applied here too?

We don't know the answer to that.

So like.

Right, lots of open questions here and I think this just brings a hill storm of negative blowback to potentially for Instacart and any grocer that's going to try it and no grocer's going to touch this given the political climate right now.

So, so yeah, I 100% agree.

And the last point I would make is to your point about AI, if you're a grocery executive, you have to be scenario planning.

What do you do when agentic AI comes in and how do you design your in store experience and your online experience within this world around pricing and loyalty?

That's going to be the fundamental question here because you have to assume that the world where everything is price transparent is coming.

And that is why, you know, UBS for the most part predicts that grocery, grocery will go the way of agentic commerce first and foremost because we know what the items are, we buy them on repeat and that's what's going to happen.

So, so yeah, so that's, that's my take here and I, I think I, I think I, I agree with you for the most part, but I disagree with you on Instacart being allowed to do this.

I don't think that's right either.

Yeah, I think the other part Chris, is we're still missing key components of data like the SNAP benefits are not.

The Instacart fees are completely waived in this case for some of those SNAP benefit recipients or at least were in November.

So I think that also plays into it too.

I mean there are other factors that we don't have the data on to understand.

Okay, what are they actually being charged?

This was 432 people.

The sample size is small.

So I think there's more to it than we are, that we have visibility to at this point in time.

All right, let's go on to headline number three.

November extended its $10 billion online grocery sales streak to five months.

According to a joint Brick Meets Click and Mercatus report.

November online grocery sales spiked, making the second time that such sales topped $12 billion.

Sales reached $12.3 billion.

That's up by more than 2.5 billion or more than 28% compared to November of 2024.

All three receiving methods, delivery, Click and collect and ship to home saw sales increases last month.

Brick Meets Click attributed November's online grocery sales growth to higher order frequency users selecting multiple receiving methods as well as higher spending rates.

Chris, what are your thoughts on the reported $12.3 billion in e grocery volume in November?

Oh, and I'm absolutely gobsmacked by this.

This statistic.

This thing stopped me in my tracks.

This headline in in concert with the conversation we had with Chad last week on our annual award show.

In addition to conversations I've had with many other people via Zoom in the last few weeks, my head is completely flipped on what's happening.

I alluded to it before and I think, I think I and I purposely want to put these two headlines right next to each other because I think there's a lot that can be gleaned from what we just talked about in terms of its applicability to this headline too.

Because here's the crazy thing about this statistic is consumers are budget constrained.

No doubt about it.

Everyone's reporting it.

E grocery should not be going up because it's the more expensive way to get your groceries.

Like it shouldn't be happening if you're budget constrained.

So then you have to ask yourself, why is that?

You know, is it the time savings that allows you to.

That gives you back as a consumer, can you redeploy your efforts and your resources into something else?

Or is it the increasing level of price transparency when you're reordering the same items, going or getting in the habit of ordering them time and time again from places that you trust, like Walmart, where the loyalty programs are very well understood.

And my hunch is it's some combination of the both that's driving this increase in behavior as well as just the general acclimation of the younger generations to online grocery as well.

Which is why I go back to what I said in, you know, the last headline with when it comes to agentic AI online, in grocery, in E Grocery, it is going to explode.

If we're already seeing this behavior now, when you add agentic onto it, it's going to be one plus one equals three in terms of the exponential impact.

So because the one axiom, and you've already said it on the show once, the one axiom you can take to the bank, which we talk about on the show all the time, we talk about it a lot, is everything always gravitates towards the lowest price when everything else is equal.

And for the Kraft macaroni and cheese box, there's no difference in it between where you want to buy it.

And so all things are equal.

And that's how things are going to evolve.

Yeah, I think the one thing that I wish we had more visibility to in this data set is how much of this is buy online pickup and so store.

And the reason that I say that is because I think that is there's no cost for that.

You know, like e that's considered e grocery but that's going to pick up your groceries which I think a lot of people have started, a lot more people have started to do.

That's what we're hearing from a lot of the grocery retailers out there that they've increased curbside pickup capacity from Target to Walmart to Albertsons to H E B.

Like everybody's working on how to do this because they're in a lot of ways it is, it is the easiest way for me to get my groceries.

And if you look at I mean your, your re your most recent grocery experiences, I'd be interested in polling the listeners and even curious for from your perspective Chris, like has your grocery experience in store been a good one as of late?

Like it seems like to me that there's been you know, shortage of staff.

There's sometimes stuff isn't in stock and then you have to go ask somebody.

At least when I'm ordering groceries online I know right away here's what is available and here's what's not.

What's not available.

It's, it's the fastest possible way for me to get that that to do checked off my list for the week is either ordering online or doing buy online pickup in store.

Plus I think you have a lot of incentives that have been kicked in to get people who are, who have maybe started this behavior to continue this behavior.

You have Target giving several deals on shipped.

You have Walmart plus giving a pretty significant amount of cash back in Walmart cash.

If you shop, if you shop, you know from as a Walmart plus member or as a Walmart member and then you have Instacart giving deals to SNAP participants too which I think all of this comes into one fueling customer behavior to realize that maybe it's worth a little bit of extra money to have your groceries delivered.

It's, it's a better experience overall when you just come pick it up and you don't have to deal with going and walking around the store and taking up time.

And I, I'd be curious you know what the, what the breakout is for cost for delivery over and what the value of people's time is worth.

And if they're just get going to the point where they're like this is something that I don't have to think about anymore.

One click and done, and I pick it up on my schedule or have it delivered when it's convenient for me.

Yeah, I think what I'd say to that is, you know, the sales are up across the board.

So your point about curbside pickup, you know, potentially, but, like, the sales are up across the board.

Ship to home delivery.

Ship to home being.

I can never remember which one is shipped to home and which one's delivery, but one is like, direct from Walmart, the other one is via Instacart.

Um, so, like, you know, so, like, it's just.

They're up.

It's just up across the board, which is just absolutely insane to me.

And the cost for that stuff is going down.

Like, that's a.

That's the thing, too, that I think that isn't factored in.

Like I was saying, like, I just did a Walmart plus delivery and I got, you know, $15 back in Walmart cash for my grocery order for the week.

Like that.

Yeah, right there.

98 for the Walmart plus subscription at some point.

So, like, I don't know that the cost is actually going down.

You know, it may feel that way, but I don't know that it actually is.

And I don't know if it is across the market either.

Right.

So that's the other point of this.

But, like, you know, it's just.

It's just so fascinating to me that it's right now and this is across all of grocery.

Right.

So Walmart is A.

Is 25% of the grocery business, but there's still 75% that's operating in a different way, too.

So, like, man, it's just.

It's just wild.

All right, let's bring David Dorff onto today's show to give us his predictions around 2026 and the future of AI.

Joining us once again for five insightful minutes is one of our favorite recurring guests, David Dorff.

David is the head of Retail Industry Solutions at aws, and today he is going to regale us with his AI predictions for 2026.

And if we go a little long today, I will take full response to responsibility because you will want to hear what David has to say.

David, welcome back to omnitalk.

And let's get started with this.

You said in a recent article that 2025 was the year of LLM overhype.

To paraphrase.

That's a bold statement given all the noise in the market, and also one that I happen to agree with for Those that know me well.

So what makes you think we've hit a plateau?

And where do you see real gains happening from here on out?

So it was just a couple years ago people were talking about artificial general intelligence being right around the corner and I think we got a little bit over our skis on that one.

LLMs are tremendously powerful, but the idea that we can continue to just scale up the data doesn't actually lead to better results.

So one of the things is that LLMs will incrementally improve, but there won't be exponential gains with the current technology.

There needs to be a new architecture like the Google Transformer that started the whole LLM thing.

Something like maybe what's going on with world models.

I'm not a scientist so I don't go that deep, but there's some cool stuff brewing out there that could help us in the long run.

But in the meantime I think it's better to focus on answers at lower costs.

And so we need to think about things like domain specific models.

So these are models that have a special purpose.

We've already seen some of these in like finance and healthcare and I'm waiting for some, some of these to come out for retail.

One of the things that we just announced at our RE Invent conference last week was this product called Nova Forge.

It's pretty unique.

We take a half trained frontier model and hand it over to the customer and then the customer can finish off the training with all their specific data.

So think about using that for something like a product catalog.

We have a really tight LLM that really knows product catalog.

Super, super well, knows your brand, all that good stuff.

That's kind of where I think we're heading for the next thing.

David, we saw this flood of agentic commerce announcements at the end of 2025.

I'm curious what your take was on all the announcements and what needs to happen for these answer engines to really become a meaningful channel for retailers rather than just another place that demand shifts over to.

First of all, I think flood is being kind.

It was more of a tsunami actually.

Yeah.

Wow.

I was, I was just trying to keep track of all the things that were going on.

There was so much great innovation.

It was really great.

But I, I would sum up things by saying I think it was fantastic progress, but let's put the cake back in the oven for a little longer.

Some of the usages were a little bit clumsy, but kudos to Walmart and, and Target for getting their implementations done with peak.

We three have all been part of retail.

And we know November is a crushing month for them to get those things done.

I really know that was tough.

But I do think that agentic commerce is going to continue to make inroads.

But digital and physical commerce are certainly not going anywhere.

And yes, there will someday be an online retailer that has no website and just uses MCP servers to sell things, but that's an exception.

Most are going to really want to cater to both humans and agents.

And by the way, bots now outnumber the humans on the Internet.

As of last month, they crossed the line.

So just as it's really important for your products to be listed in search results, you'll also want to be listed in answer engines.

And the key question for us is, did the answer engine get her to buy when she would not have otherwise?

And today I would say no.

Answer engines are substantially similar to search engines, and that's because of a disjointed experience.

But if you look at Amazon, for example, they're seeing an uplift in sales from shoppers that use Rufus over shoppers that don't.

So I kind of feel like if you get the experience right, then it could deliver incremental sales.

Got it, David.

And that brings up, actually brings up the next question I was going to ask you.

Because, you know, sometimes when I sit back and I think about everything that's been going on, I just wonder if we're just reimagining search first and foremost.

Which brings up a natural tension to me in my mind, like there's always a tension in search between advertising and trust.

So how do you predict this reimagining of search, so to speak, will evolve?

And how should retailers think about this tension between profiting from, but also figuring out how to participate with the answer engines?

Yeah, it's very expensive to run an answer engine, and most answer engines can't survive on consumer subscriptions alone.

So advertising is coming and sponsored prompts are the first shot that I've seen.

I know Amazon's doing that and Walmart's a fast follower in that regard.

Ads are coming and it's going to result in a loss of trust for some savvy consumers.

But we've been dealing that for a while and as you mentioned, Chris, this is an echo of search.

It's not just the ads.

Also, it's answer engine optimization.

Companies figuring out how to manipulate LLMs as well.

Right.

Just like they did with search engines.

So if you think about it, Chat GPT is notoriously known for loving top 10 lists.

So retailers have figured out, hey, if I publish a bunch of blogs with top 10 lists, I put my products at the top.

More chance that I'll be mentioned by an answer engine.

So there's already a lot of manipulation going on, but it's not new.

We've dealt with this with search engines and consumers will figure it out.

This is an ongoing battle that dates back to Mad Men, right?

Yeah.

So David, how optimistic then are you about shopping agents actually delivering time savings and how do you envision them giving or gaining consumer trust really, and consumer adoption if ever?

That's where we diverge a little bit from answer engines to kind of standalone shopping agents.

And I definitely predict that third parties are going to start offering these shopping agent subscriptions that are going to automate some select shopping tasks.

And I think it's going to start with delivery companies like Instacart and DoorDash because they already look across multiple sources for their products.

Right.

And they already have the delivery infrastructure.

So they might start with that answer engine integration like Instacart has done.

But I think they will eventually offer their own agents that are personalized to your tastes and that's the big value add.

So they'll know your favorite restaurants, your favorite orders, the grocery items you typically buy.

They'll find the best prices and they'll use coupons.

That's where a lot of that time savings is going to come.

I also think there's going to be more focus on outcomes over products.

So you're going to say things like plan a birthday party with a pirate theme and shop for the items and it'll do that for you.

Or I want a dinner party for eight with a French bistro theme or something like that and the agent will go off and grab all those items and have them delivered to you.

That's interesting.

I just heard today actually that UBS is predicting that grocery will be the first industry hit by agentic commerce, particularly from a commerce perspective, which, you know, is kind of the flip side of how we saw E commerce commerce develop overall.

So.

So, all right, so let's get you out here on this.

We've talked a lot about the consumer facing side of generative AI already.

But what's your take on how agents will transform internal retail operations in 2026?

Yeah, here's where I think the crystal ball gets a little clearer because, you know, consumers are pretty fickle, but companies are all about increasing efficiency and that's kind of the sweet spot for AI.

So retailers are definitely going to start deploying these agents that leverage reasoning to assist with things like merchandising, marketing and supply chain processes.

We'll start with a lot of human in the loop as we gain confidence, which makes a lot of sense.

And one example is last week at Re Invent we announced three New Frontier agents covering developers, security and cloud ops.

And that's kind of the first start.

I think we're going to start to see a lot of new agents and it's inevitable that they'll start with horizontal agents that work across lots of industries.

But eventually we'll get to industry specific agents that can really help people in places like merchandising.

And I wouldn't be surprised if eventually your SaaS subscription for some application comes with agents that help you run that application that that could be coming up soon in the future as well.

And then I also want to mention we just announced partnership with Visa around agentic payments and I think, yeah, this works for B2B and B2C.

I think B2B is going to be the big impact because I can imagine the whole purchase order, inventory, receiving, invoice, match payment, all that stuff can be easily handled by an agent that's checking all the policies, making sure everything's been done right and then making a payment without having to do checks and things like that.

So I think, I think that's going to have a big impact on the back end as well.

Amazing stuff.

David, what are your plans for NRF before we let you really go?

Yeah, so I'll be in the booth and hanging around on the floor.

We're in booth 4438 this year and then also want to give a shout out to Super Saturday.

So the retail ROI folks have their special conference on the Saturday before NRF that's free for retailers to attend.

It's great for people to go there as well.

I'm a big supporter, did a trip to Honduras with the gang and handed out Tom's shoes once and it's a, it's a great time to really learn about retail tech but also hear about some people that are less fortunate.

Such a great capstone to 2026 for us too.

Really appreciate you coming on.

Headline number four, Target has unveiled a Soho store concept featuring curated beauty and apparel.

Serves me right for trying to dig up all the different figures from that article in the last headline.

The store concept from Target features a rotating showcase of seasonal styles on the floor, floor on the first floor I should say called quote the drop and a Broadway beauty bar.

Good alliteration Target with changing selections curated by beauty influencers and a gifting gondola.

Wow.

Cancel Christmas.

We've got a ton of alliteration folks for the holidays with exclusive Target branded merchandise.

Target's updated space also includes a seasonal edit edit called Curated Buy, which features selections in partnership with influential people, starting with comedian and actress Megan Stalter, who, sadly, I actually do not know who that is.

And maybe you do.

The store also has a selfie checkout spot encouraging customers to take photos with their haul.

And are you buying or selling Target's new Soho concept store?

Before I answer one thing that I think it was not clear to me.

This is not a pop up.

This is a permanent store, which I realized and I had to be corrected.

This is, this is a permanent store that Target plans to use as a lab to evolve, test and change so that, that I wanted to make sure that our audience is clear on, because I was not.

But now comes the challenging task, I think of taking this concept and the data that they're learning about who shops it and how and figuring out how Target is going to evolve this into 2,000 stores or some segment thereof, their 2,000 stores.

And most importantly, I think that before that happens, Target has to look very closely at the technology that it's going to need to invest in to make those rollouts successful.

This store, you know, is very, based on the photos that we've seen and we'll go see it in New York, I'm sure, but, but you know, it doesn't.

There's nothing store tech in like inserted into this.

It's very much about the product.

So I think that's going to be something that they're going to have to think about as they need to operationalize this.

If they can accomplish that, if they can do that and get this set up for scale success, I'm buying it.

And I think it'll bode well for the direction that Fidelke plans to take the company in.

Since this was kind of one, one of his first, you know, projects that he was kind of like interim CEO on, I think it makes sense.

The concept store is carrying great products in limited quantities.

It's localized and it's coming at a time when I think most importantly there's going to be a big hole in a lot of Target stores once Ulta departs.

And so I think if they could figure out how to scale this concept effectively, it could be a really good thing to kind of put into the Target store to get people interested in shopping, especially their key categories like Beauty, apparel and other giftable items.

So this, if there's one project right now that I'd love to sink my teeth into, I think this would be it because I, I think there's a lot things that Target will have to inject into this to really make it successful for the store rollout.

But where, what are you buying or are you selling?

I'm selling it hard.

I'm selling it hard.

In fact, if, if we hadn't talked about this headline, I don't think it even makes my top five for the week.

I think it's pure PR sizzle and I say it's pure PR sizzle for a number of reasons.

I think number one, it's in New York City, which is just not endemic to or not representative of like your Target operation overall.

So it's not where I would put a concept store, quite frankly, because there's so many dynamics at play in New York City that don't pertain to your overall operation.

Sure the pictures look great, but you're not going to learn anything long term operationally because the ideas being tested here are never going to scale whether it's a pop up or not a pop up.

Because target, no 100% target needs to move more units and pictures of beauty bars and more boutique experiences.

Always look good in photos.

Always look good in photos, especially in New York.

But Target doesn't have the margins to sell products with so little on display.

Unless to your point, they operate the store on a completely different operational platform and business model, which for the most part it doesn't appear there's any representation that that is the case.

So net net, at the end of the day, this is still going to be a marketing installation when all is said and done at best because it's not designed for scale and it's going to take more money than the average Target store can afford to keep it looking the way it does.

That's another point.

And lastly, this thing just drives me crazy.

The selfie checkout, that Idea is like 10 years old already.

And so when we're leaning into that, it just gets me, gets me shaking my head again.

And I don't want to be shaking my head again every week.

But you know, that's just, I just, I just can't get on board with this.

Yeah, I think the, the, the other thing that I look at, Chris, when I, I see somebody else doing something similar was the Walmart New York Fashion Week pop up.

They did that with two brands and their plan.

Walmart's plan is to do the same thing.

We're testing this pop up in New York and then we're figuring out what the products are.

We're going to roll this out and we're going to change our scoop and free assembly experiences in store by the end of next year.

Denise and Candela said to get an understanding of how to bring newness and product to customers.

So I, I, I don't know.

I think but that's smart and because that's a smart, that's a.

First of all it is a pop up, It's a pop up designed to understand the product that you're putting in your fashion assortment which will then go into and informed a portion of the Walmart store versus taking an entire store operation and trying to pivot in this direction.

Those are two very different sides of the coin.

Oh, I don't see it that different.

I think that this store.

Yes, this, the only difference to me is that it's a pop up versus an of long standing store.

And again if you're looking at your competitor, you know, if Target's competitor Walmart is doing pop ups to test this theory and you're doing a full time store to test this theory, you're going about it two different routes.

But I still think that Target's putting, I mean it's all Target product.

They're figuring out how to, how they can take this moment in New York and extend it across 2,000 stores.

I think is, is a, is a worthwhile endeavor.

I think it's a new way to showcase Target product and maybe they can use, maybe they'll have some of the shine of this New York experience to, to like give the people in the middle of the country.

I, I don't know.

Again, there's a lot that has to go right in order for this to be successful.

But, but I, I don't, I'd like to see this I guess concept coming from Target.

I'd like to see them figure out how they're going to get people to fall in love again with the brand.

But you know, taking that New York concept and scaling it is, is a big project.

It is for sure.

All right, let's go to headline number five, Ashley.

The furniture brand is partnering with Perplexity and PayPal to allow customers to ask for product recommendations, add items to cart and complete payment in a single step.

According to retail dive, shoppers can request product recommendations, view curated options and add items to their cart and complete a payment transaction in one continuous conversation.

Quote.

As more customers begin their furniture search on AI platforms such as Perplexity.

This new capability positions Ashley at the forefront of agentic commerce, end quote.

The company said in a press release.

Chris, you have been saying for the past few weeks that we all need to slow our roll with agentic commerce.

So where do you come down on the decision from Ashley to plug directly into Perplexity?

Yeah, this might surprise people, but I actually love this.

I think, I think this is a really smart move because I think it plays to Ashley's strengths.

It's really thoughtful when you think about it because if you know the furniture business as I do or I've spent a lot of time in, then you know that Ashley is one of the very few brands that actually has search value.

There aren't very many in the home furnishing space.

So present day, if you look at present day, exclusive of AI, they're landing that search value either on their own site or the big marketplaces.

Wayfair, Walmart, Amazon, heck, even Target, as I was the DMM that brought Ashley into the Target assortment back in the day.

And so now with Agentic AI, Ashley is saying why do I need all those marketplaces?

Like why don't I as a manufacturer?

Because that's really what they are.

They're more the manufacturer, the wholesaler here.

Yeah, I had no idea until you mentioned that.

Yeah, yeah.

And so why, why, why should I, why do I need all those marketplaces when I can just plug in directly and find all those efficiencies myself?

On home furnishings products which generally are more consideration based, they're higher consideration purchases than say like grocery like we talked about in headlines two, two and three.

So it's in a, the crazy thing about it too, it's an approach that few in the furniture industry can actually take, but Ashley can because of its brand recognition.

And that is the brilliance of it.

So I really, really, really, really like this move.

I, I agree.

I think it's, you know, I'm, I'm always going to be for trying every possible option to figure to test your brand in and around these AI search engines because I think we still don't know which one is going to land where consumer behavior is going to land.

And so I think in this case where when you, you have somebody using perplexity for things like groceries, like you said Chris, you have somebody using perplexity to, you know, help figure out, you know, what the, what their meal plan is for the week.

And now they can go to the same spot to find furniture or upload photos like they're doing on Google Image search right now where they're like, I, like, I saw this couch at West Elm.

Find me a couch like this that, you know, that is similar at other retailers.

How do I get something like this that maybe meets my budget?

I, I absolutely love that.

I do have a bone to pick though, with all of these companies talking about their search functions that they're deploying.

Every retailer that we have talked about, including Ashley, if you go on Perplexity right now, I tried to use this and I tried to search for an Ashley product, it doesn't work.

I even asked Perplexity, I said, can you find me Ashley Furniture or can you find, you know, a mid century modern couch on Ashley Furniture?

And it said no.

Same thing happened with Target's GPT during the holidays.

Like, stop putting these messages out there unless you're very explicit about how people are supposed to engage with them.

Because it is a. I, I do think like we're in such a volatile time right now where if I try something and it doesn't work, I'm not going back and I'm not going to do that again.

So I think that's the thing for me.

Like, I get that all these retailers want to be out there and talking about their experimentation, but please be clear about whether this is in beta, whether this is a select number of users that can have this experience, because right now it's like, it's very confusing and I think that you have a, you're at risk of losing custom who may really benefit from some of these services that you're providing.

So that's, that's my rant about the AI search engine testing that's going on right now.

I like that it's happening.

Ashley gets a lot of kudos for doing this.

I think like you said, it makes total sense given that they are, you know, a wholesaler in addition to having their own stores.

But man, I just really want to, I, I wish that they would be more clear about how this is supposed to work and as a consumer, what this is going to look like for.

Me, a hundred percent.

I think your rant is a hundred % justified and 100% it is, you know, like, yeah, you gotta, you gotta do it right?

You know, which again goes back to the conversation we're having around peak.

Like, like even Ashley, I'd hit Ashley on this.

Why are you announcing this in November?

Like, and you're trying to go and find it.

It doesn't make sense, right?

You should, you should, you should be doing this in like January, February, March, like off peak furniture times.

I mean, you're kind of off peak furniture time, really, honestly.

So maybe it's not the worst, Ashley.

To try because they, they cycle a bit differently.

But yeah, you got to get it right if you're gonna do.

It.

Yeah, yeah.

Message correctly.

All right, let's go to the lightning round.

Chris.

Actor, entrepreneur, mobile pioneer.

90s film star.

Rhino.

Ryan Reynolds.

I guess he's still a film.

Star.

90s film.

Star.

He was really, he really came online for me in the 90s.

He will take the stage as one of the keynotes at NRF this year.

If you could ask him one question, what would it.

Be?

Oh.

Man.

This.

I. Oh, God.

I think this word.

I think I'd put him on the spot a little bit.

I'd be like, you know, what's your wife's favorite?

What's your favorite film role of your wife?

It's got to be the town, right?

And I would literally ask him the town part at the end because I love her in that movie.

That movie is so awesome.

That movie is so great.

Oh, man.

The 90s, what do you go back to?

Is like Canadian television.

I remember him from Van Wilder.

Which is like Van Wilder.

Oh, maybe it was 2000s.

Yeah, I guess that's probably it.

But it felt like late 90s, early 2000s.

Van Wilder.

Oh, man.

That'S.

Yeah.

Not necessarily appropriate for today's generation and all the.

The social mores, but.

But definitely a movie that doesn't get talked about enough.

All right, next one.

Last week, the last week, the largest ever gathering of golden retrievers occurred in Buenos Aires.

And if you could have any four legged creature, creature, nine silly canine creature join your family, what four legged creature would you want it to.

Be?

It would be a dog.

I think I just, I.

We get my son's allergic, but he just made a presentation for me on his little Google Power Slide.

PowerPoint slides about a new breed called like an F1B or F1B1 or something, which is a golden doodle crossed with poodle.

That is supposed to be the most hypoallergenic dog that exists right now.

They're very adorable, but it's still not happening.

You still said no, I crushed his little heart at Christmas time.

I did.

But yeah, I just.

We're not.

We're not the people that can care properly for a dog.

I would love to like rent a dog and just have it on occasion.

And then, you know, I'd have to give it.

To.

You can do that.

They have Services where you could do that for the weekend if you.

Wanted.

Well, I am going to take him.

They're doing puppy yoga in Minneapolis, and they are doing an F1B puppy yoga class.

So I figured that's going to be.

That will be his Christmas present.

That will kind of.

Kind of do that.

And then it's just going to be awful after because he'll be so sad that he can't take them.

All.

Wow.

All right.

One spot likely to land on many NRF store tours as we head into New York in January will be the new Calvin Klein flagship that opened recently in New York's SoHo neighborhood.

The story.

The store carries the full Calvin Klein assortment, from denim to T shirts and, of course, underwear.

Chris, what Calvin Klein item would you most want to leave the Calvin Klein store tour.

Carrying?

Oh, my God.

The only thing I could ever think about when a Calvin Klein is like, it's like Elaine told Marty, it's written all over your underwear.

And it's written all over my underwear.

That's all I can think about.

That's all I'd want to take out of that.

That store.

All right, last one.

This one's sad, folks.

To honor the late Rob Reiner, for whom we always pay homage on this podcast when we try to dial things up to 11.

What is your Mount Rushmore of Rob Reiner.

Movies?

Princess Bride.

I still love that movie so.

Much.

Particular order or are these just.

Like.

Oh, no, they're just like, top four.

So cool.

Princess Bride.

When.

When Harry Met Sally, Stand By Me, and A Few Good Men.

Those would be my four.

What would your four.

Be?

It's hard to argue those.

It's definitely hard to argue.

Those.

Let me.

Think.

I. Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, A Few Good Men, for sure.

And then I'd probably put Spinal Tap in there just because it's quoted so often, although I haven't watched it in a long time.

Stand By Me is tough to argue with, too.

So I don't know, you know, maybe.

Maybe 4A, 4B.

For.

Me.

It's.

It's like a.

There's just a whole Mount Rushmore peanut gallery.

There's just, like, layers to p. Of people up there or of movies up there for.

Him.

Yeah.

At Orange Theory this week, the guy during the cooldown played.

Played Stand By Me, the song, you know, and.

And I was, like, saying, oh, wow, this is so apropos.

And most people didn't even know what I was talking about or they were too tired to care, you know, I don't know.

But anyway.

All right, Ella, Producer Ella, come on in here.

I'm curious.

I have no idea.

Absolutely no idea.

This is a weird show to cap off 2025 for sure.

Lots of good, healthy debate.

Which headline for you won the week?

What inspired you the most?

Got you.

Thinking?

Yeah, you know, I don't know if I would say won the week, but something thinking was the Target in Soho?

I am very intrigued.

I think I couldn't form any opinions until I stepped foot in it.

I think the design aspects of it are very interesting.

And I think I wasn't sure which way you guys were gonna go.

And after your talks, I think you had some great points.

I think given its location being in Soho and the neighborhood, it kind of makes sense to me.

Like a boutique inspired little Target pop up.

I know it's not a pop up, but it feels like a pop up.

I don't know, I think it's.

It feels like a tourist attraction to me and I would love to see it once.

But I think when it comes to going there regularly or deploying this out to other targets, I would probably fall back to my regular department store, the ones where, like, you can go in looking for deodorant and leave with a dress and a coat and some shoes, you know, So, I don't know.

Got me.

Thinking.

Yeah.

Wow.

Well said.

Well said.

Interesting point, too.

All right, that closes us up.

Happy birthday today to Catherine Winick, Sarah Paulson, and to the man who will forever be, in my mind, the greatest American president, real or fictional, the great Bill Pullman.

And remember, if you can only read or listen to one retail blog in the business, Make It Omnitoc, the only retail media outlet run by two former executives from a current top 10 US retailer.

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We are back on January 7, 2025, so.

So until next year, on behalf of producer Ella Ann and myself and all of us at Omnitalk Retail.

As always, be careful out.