Amazon’s D.C. Blowback, Caper Carts & Why A ChatGPT/Shopify Tie-Up Should Scare Google | Fast Five

The Omnich Fast 5 is brought to you by the A and M Consumer and Retail Group.

The A and M Consumer and Retail Group is a management consulting firm that tackles the most complex challenges and advances its clients, people and communities toward their maximum potential.

CRG brings the experience, tools and operator like pragmatism to help retailers and consumer products companies be on the right side of disruption and Miracle, the catalyst of Commerce.

Over 450 retailers are now opening new revenue streams with marketplaces, dropship and retail media and succeed.

Leading with Miracle, you can unlock more products, more partners and more profits without the heavy lifting.

What's holding you back?

Visit Miracle.com to learn more.

That's M I R A K L.com and Simbi Simbi powers the most retail banners in the world with today's only multimodal platform for in store intelligence.

See how Albertsons, BJ's Spartan Nash and Wakefern win with AI and automation at circumstances.

Simbrobotics.com and Infios.

@ Infios, they unite warehousing, transportation and order management into a seamless, adaptable network.

Infios helps you stay ahead from promise to delivery and every step in between.

To learn more, visit infios.com and Clear Demand pricing shouldn't be guesswork.

Clear Demand's AI powered pricing data and optimization solutions help retailers stay competitive while protecting margins, Smarter pricing, stronger profits.

Clear Demand makes it happen.

Learn more@cleardemand.com omnitalk and finally, Ocampo Capital.

Ocampo Capital is a venture capital firm founded by retail executives with the aim of helping early stage consumer businesses succeed through investment and operational support.

Learn more@ocampo capital.com hello, you are listening to Omni Talks.

Retail Fast Five ranked in the top 10% of all podcasts globally and currently the only retail podcast ranked in the top 100 of all business podcasts on Apple Podcasts.

The Retail Fast Five is a podcast that we hope makes you feel a little smarter, but most importantly, a little happier each week too.

And the Fast 5 is just one of the many great podcasts you can find from the Amitak Retail Podcast Network alongside our Retail Daily Minute, which brings you a curated selection of the most important retail headlines every morning and our Retail Technology Spotlight series, which goes deep each week on the latest retail technology Trends.

Today is April 30, 2025.

I'm one of your hosts, An Mzinga.

And I'm Chris Walton and we're here.

Once again to discuss all the top headlines making waves in the World of omnichannel retailing.

And joining us today, Chris, for their regularly scheduled monthly appearance is Alvarez and Marcel, consumer and retail groups Jeff Dwyer and Luis de la Sonk.

I hope I said that as close as possible.

Luis, welcome to you both.

Pretty close.

Give it the college try and give it a try.

I gave it the old college try.

Took Spanish, not French, but I am doing my very best.

And Louise, since this is your first appearance on the show and I absolutely butchered your last name, let's have you pronounce your last name and give us a little bit of your background.

Yeah, I'm Luis, and don't worry, it's difficult to pronounce even in.

In French, so.

And as you've gathered, I'm.

I'm French and American, but live in New York.

Amazing.

I'm a partner at Alvarez and Marcel in the consumer retail group.

So very excited to be here with you.

I mainly focus my work on consumer advising.

Executives of Fortune 500 companies, typically on their transformations.

So excited to be here with you this morning.

Welcome.

Excellent.

And Jeff, let's go to you next.

Hey, good morning.

Yeah.

So, Jeff Dwyer, partner out of the San Francisco office.

I actually just celebrated my 18th year with a and M about a week ago, which is pretty wild to think about.

I specialize mostly in CFO services, transformation services within our consumer retail platform.

So it's great to be here again this morning and excited to be joined with Elise and I won't even try the last time.

Good to see you.

Yeah, it's great to see you again too, Jeff.

That's a great.

That's a.

That's a great intro.

I focus on CFO services.

I like that a lot.

That's a.

That's a.

That's a pretty nice way to say that.

So.

And for both of you, we've got some really interesting topics that we hand picked, knowing that you, particularly Luis, would be on this show today to give us some of your take on the consumer side of things.

So, Ann, are we ready to get this show started?

I.

I think it's time, Chris.

Let's do it.

I think it is, too.

But before we get to the headlines, today's headlines, I got to tell you, fans, are brought to you by a special company, and that special company is Millionaire Match.

Yes.

Omni Talk Land.

Are you looking for love and success?

Millionaire Match is the original dating app for high quality singles.

Think successful entrepreneurs and the people who admire them.

Whether you're searching for true love or even powerful business connections, this is the place to be.

To keep things exclusive and classy for the top 1%, everyone interacting with you on Millionaire Match is 100% verified.

Privacy and quality guaranteed.

Download the Millionaire Match app now on the Apple Store or Google Play or just tap the link in our bio.

And here's a VIP bonus just for you Omnitalk fans.

Use referral code 0430 when you sign up and you can unlock a special treat.

And I know you'd be into this if you were on.

Oh my God, Absolutely.

I was so excited about this.

I was like this.

If I, if I it were something I could do right now I'm kind of tempted to just check it out, but I don't want to start.

We I just celebrated my anniversary last week, so I think I'm probably the.

Options, just the options.

Just, just research in the name of research.

Like this sounds like such a cool thing.

I wish that I could have been this selective when I was going on dates 10 years ago.

So.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

When they reached out, we're like, yes, please, let's do this.

All right.

Well, Today's in today's Fast5, we've got news on schnooks expanding its CaperCart tests.

Chat GPT's integration with Shopify, PepsiCo accelerating its transition to natural ingredients.

Schnooks again for the second time in one show.

What is going on for testing products via a local incubator.

And Corso CEO Julian Mills also stops by for five insightful minutes on why more and more retailers are investing in intelligent store management tools.

But we begin today with big news out of Amazon yesterday, or maybe it was news, I don't know.

And what's your take on this one?

Is it news?

Is it not news?

We were never going to talk about it.

It doesn't matter.

We're still going to talk about it.

On today's show, Chris, headline number one, Amazon said Tuesday it can sell considered displaying import charges on items sold via its site for ultra discount items.

But that plan was apparently never approved and never going to happen as a direct quote from Amazon.

According to cnbc, the move would have affected items sold on Amazon's haul.

Their answer to Chinese discount retailer Temu, which offers apparel, home goods and other Items priced at 20 or less.

Amazon weighed adding a separate line item to products on hall in response to Trump's removal of the de minimis trade loophole, according to a source familiar with the matter.

The consideration apparently was not related to Trump's 145% tariff on imports from China Punchbowl News.

First time call out, I think on the fast five.

Chris.

Yes, it is.

I think it was too when I was right.

Yes, yes.

Reported earlier on Tuesday that Amazon would quote, soon begin displaying the cost of tariffs alongside the price of each product, citing a source familiar with the company's plans.

The report drew the ire of the White House, which called Amazon's reported plans a quote, hostile and political act.

Jeff, we're going to go to you on this hotly debated topic to kick us off here.

All the Tuesday craziness notwithstanding, is the idea of Amazon potentially displaying costs of tariffs, even good retailing to begin with.

The floor is yours.

This is, this is a good one.

I'm not aligned with you on.

Is this even actually really news?

If it, if it by the time you get to lunchtime, it's off the front page of the press.

Right.

This is an interesting one.

No, it's not good retailing.

But I think you're going to see a number of strategies and approaches that are taken by retailers that are having to bear not insignificant amount of cost pressure that's inbound.

Obviously would love to see Amazon and other larger retailers do something different than what I think is a pretty extreme measure that in my mind needs to protect local brands and some of the smaller private label type companies that are really going to have a hard time weathering the next six to 12 months and using that as a transparent pricing to have a more honest conversation with your customer and demographic and consumer base than what I think this was with a large retailer potentially making a political move or trying to get the extra margin probably the wrong way for them.

But it'll be interesting to see how a lot of other mass retailers are employing it.

I think we're already seeing the early cracks of pricing increases across certainly the apparel landscape.

And it's, it's, it's, you know, with my CFO services background, I can tell you it's a mess out there right now.

Right, right.

Well, and Chris, you, I know, you know, when we, when this question gets posed, is this good retailing?

What would you have done in this scenario if you were Amazon or even as a, as someone listening who's trying to think about like, is this a viable option?

Yeah, I know.

Like I thought Jeff said it well, like I don't even think this story is really news.

I mean, we're reporting on conversations I think that are happening inside Amazon in terms of what to do.

That's what we're doing.

I don't believe this thing would have ever seen the light of day like this concept because yeah, it's just, it's bad merchandising.

In my experience as a merchant, you never give people a reason not to buy something.

Like you're basically telling people why don't you go comparison shop for this while you're on my site?

Because you're seeing the tariff surcharge here.

So, so I just don't see it.

It doesn't make sense to me that you would do this and maybe some other people are thinking about it, but I don't think Amazon would ever actually put this into practice.

So you know, I don't know.

My question really for Jeff is like what, what is some of, what are some of the things that you're seeing different retailers do, you know, in regards to, particularly on the shipment side of things.

I'm curious if you have any intel on that in terms of what you're seeing different responses to this tariff situation, what the responses have been?

Yeah, it's a mixed bag and I hate that answer.

But the answer, that's the truth.

Right now you have a number of retailers that can either be specific and differentiated in the product they're bringing in because there's enough margin to support it and you're going to have less choice.

You've probably already heard it in the past two weeks.

They're going to bring the products that they can afford to pass on or they make enough money to make it a mathematical equation that's acceptable for them.

And then in instances where businesses are unable to actually weather the storm, we've heard examples of companies that have taken imports down to zero and are just waiting to see if there is an alternative option for them to either take inventory down and try to pass on the price for the inventory that they already have in the door.

But it's not a one size fits all model.

We have a number of kind of near term, short term mechanisms that a lot of companies are employing.

And then the reality is where do you bet right now given how limbo everything is on country of origin, outside of just obviously everything going on with the 145% tariff on China.

But it's, it's, it's a little bit of a wait and see right now.

And that's across everything.

Capital markets, companies trying to figure out where, what they can do in the short term to, to get the price back and then longer term what do they need to do from a supply chain and operational perspective to, to avoid this longer term?

Yeah, I think that's really well said.

And, and Luis, we'll go to you for the final word on here.

But I think it's like, it's definitely like something that you hear in therapy.

Like what, let's focus on the things you can control, right?

What can you control in this scenario?

And I think for retailers, right, it's like looking at, okay, how do I focus on loyalty?

Like, the costs are going to go up across the board.

Consumers are going to be impacted by these tariffs.

So how are you working on lever using what you have internally, even as Amazon to like lever up and down, you know, where you might be able to take a hit on some of your margins so that you can provide a lower price point for that consumer for some of these topics or for some of these products in addition to that.

But Luis, last word here.

What, what, what would you add to this big, big topic of tariffs and pricing and, and how the consumer is going to be impacted?

Yeah, as Jeff said, I mean, it's hitting, you know, the entire economy.

And if you take it from the consumer companies, I mean, there's not one company that's not, not hit by it because the supply chains are so integrated, so global, and a lot of the players had in the 2016 era had moved away from China to other Southeast Asia countries or Mexico, and now it doesn't work anymore.

They need to rethink and reshuffle their supply base and it's putting a lot of strain on the system and a lot of cost increases.

Right.

Jeff, I'm curious before we move on to the next headline, I'm curious, maybe you can give me a number here or not.

But as you look to the summer and maybe even into the fall, how much lower will inventories on shelf be in the average retailer across America?

How many retailers will be here if there isn't any movement in the summertime is probably the more concern I have.

Wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

Again, I think there's a number of companies for the first time that are actually excited that they're, they're long inventory and sitting on six to 12 months of, of a particular category when that would have obviously been frowned upon just three weeks or four weeks ago.

So I think you're going to see inventory levels certainly being impacted for the holiday buys.

As you think about all the seasonal categories that are coming in that you usually land kind of in that September, October timeframe, that stuff is going to be on a boat here in 90 days, 60 days.

And, and I, I, I'm more worried about the impact you're going to have on the more November December seasonal type type areas then I think you're going to see Worried about what's on shelf at a Walmart for for the next 60 days?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

And I started talking about that for the first time last week too.

That that's kind of our new growing fear as well.

All right, well let's move on to headline number two.

Let's get to something a little more exciting, a little more fun, a little more futuristic, for lack of a better word, and that is that Schnooks is expanding its capercart pilot.

According to an Instacart press release, Schnook is expanding its capercart to even more stores across Missouri and expanding into Illinois, marking the first time the smart cards will be available in the state of Illinois.

In addition, Instacart is also adding a new feature to its carts.

And are you do you know what it is?

It's a lower tray.

Yes.

The Instacart caper cart now has a lower tray.

Can I put my kids on that?

Can I put my kids on that?

I think you can add cancel Christmas.

It's got a lower tray.

The option now makes it easier for customers to add heavier, bulkier items such as cases of water, soda and pet food to the cart or possibly even eight year old children.

And if we'll give it a whirl.

So desire.

Yes.

Quote it's clear to us that customers love shopping with caper carts.

And at our newly launched stores we're seeing many times throughout the day where all 10 carts are in use, end quote.

Said Chuck McMullen, senior director of digital experience at Schnooks.

Jeff, going back to you schnooks from our rig collection actually and I were talking about this yesterday.

From our recollection, it may be actually the first retailer to to announce that it is expanding its use of caper cards.

Therefore, how significant is this moment in the annals of grocery history?

This is a fun one significance in history?

I don't know.

I think in terms of the self checkout equivalent revolution, I think the jury's still out for me but I do believe it will slowly become more normal.

And as as a patron who actually went to their outside of their St.

Louis location and experienced this, it's pretty cool.

I mean for me I, I, I'm more of the convenience shopper.

Want to get in, want to get out.

It is definitely for a specific demographic and so I think as you see it rolled out, it'll be in the Limited capacity, you know, 10 carts and in a store that has 150 of them.

It's, it's a small component of the overall experience right now.

And maybe it's, maybe it fits in some of the higher end grocery models.

But yeah, I'm, I'm selling this as a moment in time akin to a Piggly Wiggly opening a hundred years ago.

Okay, got it.

Good, Good reference, man.

Okay, wait, so wait, so you're kind of a one of and he's a, Jeff's a one of one on this show.

Like he's actually tried the caper card.

I don't think I've actually seen anyone that doesn't work for a retailer that's tried the caper card.

So, so what's your, what's your review of it?

Like, what would you like, what you not like about it?

It's right up my alley.

Who wants to literally just go and throw things in a cart and then walk out the store and click a button to pay and you're out the door?

I couldn't tell you the last time I actually stood in a non self checkout other than the fact that you have to buy alcohol and occasionally have to go to the actual person to check you out.

I'm a convenience shopper.

I want to get in, get out.

My wife hates the fact that I do a grocery run because I'm, she wants me out of the house and I'm probably back faster than she needs me.

But it's, it's a great experience.

I mean, the cart's a little wonky.

It can't really fit as, as much as like a traditional shopping cart.

So it is more of the kind of smaller components.

The bottom capacity, I mean it could hold like a 12 pack of water, not one of the big Costco size ones.

So it's, but it's a, it's a, it's a good model.

I mean I, I definitely put more stuff in my basket than I think I would have normally done otherwise.

So it's, it'll be interesting to see how this gets rolled out to, to Illinois.

And so you're two thumbs up on the card itself.

Like for you as a shopper, you, you, you liked it, you liked using it, you'd use it again, I, I.

I liked the convenience of it.

Okay.

Again, the card itself is, is a little bit, like I said, wonky, but they'll get that fixed.

They'll figure it out.

But it's, it's, it's, it's not going anywhere.

I Think we actually probably see a little bit more of this.

But whether it's fully penetrated like a self checkout line item or line, I'm, I'm not, I'm not sold quite yet.

Not sure yet.

Right, right, right.

And what do you think here, you know, on the, on the movement in grocery, grocery history?

Is it ugly, wiggly?

Is it less?

Like, where is it?

I don't know.

I mean, I was just talking to a regional, pretty major regional grocer last week who's also going forward with the Amazon Dash cart in their, in their grocer.

And it, it surprises me.

But I think for me, Chris, I mean, plain and simple, I think it's just a test of how far along this technology has come and what the caper carts are able to do.

And I think what I was hearing from that particular retailer was that they're being sold hard now on the future capabilities, especially as it relates to retail media that they can add into this, even like cameras on the carts and being able to do walk, you know, pathing and understanding out of stocks in a store.

So I think it's getting to the point where the tipping point where it's like, okay, these are finally providing a return on the massive investment that you have to make to bring them into stores.

So is it something that we're testing in more, more cases like we're seeing with Snooks here?

Yeah, and I don't know, when I, when I hear you talk like that though, it reminds me of the old SNL commercial, you know, with Dan Aykroyd.

Like, you know, it's a floor wax, but it's also a dessert topping.

I think that's where people start to get a little too excited about the innovation and the potential of what they, what it can do and trying to find the use cases.

But I agree with Jeff.

I don't think this is like Piggly Wiggly, momentous change in the history of grocery shopping.

But I do think it's a pretty significant move here because, you know, it passes my litmus test that we've talked about on this show a lot, which is implementations are one thing.

Software providers or hardware providers in this case are always talking about their implementations.

They're always talking about, you know, here's how many places we're located.

But the one thing you never hear much about is that second implementation, the expansion.

And so I'm always skeptical until they reach the second rollout stage because that means you've proved the ROI at the first stage.

Now, granted, it's 10 carts, you know, for the most part in one of these stores, like Jeff said, like the headline said.

So there's still a lot more to find out here, but they're finding out enough to say, yes, we want to continue to move forward with it and see if there's an idea here.

But yes, the jury's still out on whether or not these are ultimately going to work in the long run, especially against all the other options that you have around retail media via the phone, via installations on screens in the store, in store radio and, and all the other things you can do with cameras and robots and everything else, or even just AI in terms of understanding the dynamics of how your store is working on a daily basis.

So I think a lot more to prove, but this is interesting in the fact that Schnooks, which is one of the smartest grocers around, is saying, hey, we're going to expand this.

I think that's important, right?

And, and you just brought up another question, Chris, like how many carts are they expanding to all these locations?

Like, are they still going to go with the 10 cart per store test?

Or is this going to be, are we going to start to see more carts in action versus, you know, here's a few options or here's one option, because it also requires some infrastructural changes too to all of these stores, Chris, which we haven't talked about yet either.

And so I think there's a lot more to be gleaned from this rollout and what it ends up looking like and really starting to get into the details of how many make sense and what the real investment is.

All right, headline number three.

Shopify could soon be integrating with ChatGPT.

Search according to Media Post, recent co discovery suggests that OpenAI is preparing to transform ChatGPT into a direct shopping platform through Shopify integration.

Open.

OpenAI has quietly added lines of code to ChatGPT that indicate direct shopping functionality.

Rather than simply adding affiliate links, the code suggests a deeper integration that would enable ChatGPT users to complete purchases without ever leaving the platform.

The uncovered code indicates features including product pricing, displays, shipping information fields, Buy now options and embedded checkout buttons, essentially transforming the AI Chatbot into a comprehensive shopping interface.

The model appears designed to allow Shopify to directly populate ChatGPT with relevant product suggestions based on user conversations, creating a seamless shopping experience that keeps users within the ChatGPT ecosystem.

Luis, we're, we're talking about moving the needle technology right now.

This is definitely one of those Headlines.

How scared should people like Google be in this, by this chat, GPT and Shopify integration?

Very.

I mean yeah, obviously AI is a revolution, right?

It's, it's impacting, it's going to impact all sectors of the economy.

It's impacting our, our lives at many different levels.

Right.

And it's, you know, maybe some slightly frightening but very exciting at the same time with, with all the, everything that can be done.

And one big question obviously is where is the value going to lie in the value chain?

Who are going to be the winners?

And that's true within the technology players, the ones who are actually building the algorithms.

Is it going to be a commodity?

Is OpenAI tomorrow going to be displaced in its leadership by the other players, Google, including Deep Seek and many others?

That's a big question.

And the second question is how exactly is it going to impact in our case here, corporate America and consumer and a lot of the CEOs and executives that I talk to about these topics, they're still in the consumer space, still scratching their heads on where is the impact going to lie?

How does it really transform my company, how quickly and what should I do?

Right.

And that's from how do you hit corporate America and how are you a winner?

If you look at the Shopify integration, that's more from the technology standpoint and the offer, is it going to be a winner takes all where chatgpt, once they start offering that functionality and become a one stop shop where you can actually buy from your app and do all of the, the functions that you typically go on Google for, does that make Google obsolete?

Online E commerce shopping world?

So if I'm Google I'm scared, right?

Right.

I mean it's, it's like the search, the search.

I feel like we're back when like Google came online and it was Bing and Google and Netscape and like all these things really like it's like the search is starting all over again and it's really anyone's game because once you start getting integration.

I heard at Shop Talk from, from Sean Scott, the head of Google Shopping who was like already, you know, we're seeing engagement happen in Google and Google's not a retailer but they're facilitating all of these shopping transactions.

I think like 20% of lens searches he said, are already ending in a commerce transaction.

So it's so interesting because it's going to be who do you go to for your, your problem solver?

Is it perplexity?

Is it ChatGPT?

Right?

Is it, is it Google Gemini and, and, or Amazon even like we heard a couple weeks ago, where you can go in there and, and transact fully just by sending in one request.

I'm curious Luis, because I talked about to several retailers last week about this.

Are, are those CEOs in, in these retailers and brands, are they taking any steps forward right now to kind of prepare their products to be showing up in these types of search engines or do you think that they're still still kind of.

It's still in its infancy.

Still still in the infancy.

And you're going to see, I mean a lot of those CEOs are thinking how do I gain a competitive advantage, right?

So the ones who are more bold and you know, take more risk or more visionary or able to focus out of, you know, the day to day grind into projects, projecting into the future, they're trying to, to get into the AI revolution in a much faster way and, but they still don't know where to focus the energy.

Right.

You can only do so much.

Right.

So is being present on, you know, the future chat, GPT, Shopify, is that, you know, should that be your focus or are you continuing to do what you're doing, trying to optimize the day to day business?

So those are strategic questions of how they allocate their resources and there's not a clear, clear cut answer on that yet.

Right?

Yeah.

Jeff, I assume you're hearing a lot from the clients that you're working with as it relates to this too and where it makes sense.

I mean this I feel like is still kind of like in the R and D kind of category for some retailers, but maybe moving, going to require that they move much more quickly.

What are you seeing Jeff, with your clients?

Yeah, it's mostly confusion around, around how this is actually going to all kind of end.

I, I do believe this is going to be faster than a 10 cart rollout on, on a, on a digital shopping cart.

Yeah, we will see, we will see a lot of bets being placed.

Capital is already being allocated to huge tech investments and in trying to be that differentiator, as Luis mentioned, and trying to get that competitive advantage, you're going to, you're going to see some, some pretty interesting things coming.

Not in the next two to three years.

You're talking next probably two to three quarters.

Right.

And I think it'll be positive mostly from just a consumer experience, but from a retail experience it could be a huge, huge unlock to either access new customers or actually even save on the amount of money that they're Placing with overall marketing spend.

So.

Right, right.

It'll be interesting to see companies need to start to have an answer, even just from an investor communication standpoint.

You're seeing more and more on earnings calls.

The question from analysts, you know, how are you preparing for the AI revolution?

What are you doing?

What actions are you taking?

So there's a pressure as well from investors to get ready for this revolution, right?

Absolutely.

And Chris, I mean, what do you.

What would you be doing if you were Google right now?

Or how would you be feeling?

How would you be rallying the troops?

Well, I don't know.

I mean, I think what I take away from this conversation really is I think Luis's point about, you know, how do cpg.

The thing I started thinking about the most in this conversation is like, how do CPGs view this announcement versus retailers?

If I'm a CPG, I don't think I'm paying too much attention to this because I think my job is, at the end of the day is to develop good products and make sure they're available for the people.

And so I don't think, you know, how people transact in those is really going to impact the CPGs all that much down the line or at least I have trouble seeing it.

I think there's advantages that they can, or they can take advantage of, advantage of Gen AI for different use cases.

But I'm not too worried about, you know, the advent of the impact on this for them, but for the retailers, to Jeff's point, it's just incredibly disruptive.

And then going back to the question at hand of, you know, how scared should Google be or what should Google do?

I mean, I think at this point, the thing as I sit back, I think everybody's scared of everybody at this point because you throw agentic AI into the mix, which this isn't even about yet, in the core of this headline.

And it's going to be hard to know who is actually powering what at the end of the day.

Right.

Like all these things could be working together and no one knows what's going on.

You don't know your arm from your elbow.

So and the idea of like user search here being what powers this too, that's in some ways so old school now when you bring in a gentic AI.

And that's the crazy thing about that, to Jeff's point too is that's two years old at this point.

Yeah.

So like, it's just amazing to me how fast all of this is changing and the average retail, average retail CEO, not CPG CEO, but the average retail CEO likely has no idea what is likely going to hit him or her here over the next five years.

And it's going to be, it's going to be crazy to watch.

I mean, that's why you and I and I were talking yesterday too.

Like, this is the most important headline of the week, like, of the five, this one, by far and away, in terms of the impact on retail overall over the next 10 years.

The movement in this direction continues to be something we got to keep at, keep on top of.

All right, well, let's bring Julian on to today's show.

Joining us now for five insightful minutes is Julian Mills, a frequent Omni Talk guest and the CEO of Corso.

Coming off our story last week regarding Corso and Circle K, Julian is here to discuss the rise and value of an intelligent store management solution.

Julian, let's start with this.

You've partnered with some big retailers recently, like Circle K, I just mentioned, as well as EG and Walmart Mexico to deploy intelligent management.

What's driving these retailers to adopt your solution and to make these moves?

Yes.

And Chris, first of all, it's great to be back.

Thanks for having me.

And second, yeah, we, we, we're on a bit of a roll.

And those are just the ones we can talk about.

There are others we can't, which is very exciting.

And I, I think what's happening really is, as you know better than I do, running a store is really complex.

There are so many things that come at you every day.

The truck's late, you know, planogram's not laid out, is incorrectly done, you know, etc.

Hundreds and hundreds of things for a store manager.

And I think retailers are realizing that sending yet another spreadsheet or yet another email or yet another dashboard, etcetera, doesn't actually fix those problems in the store.

You need to have a new way of running your store, a new way of using data to surface those problems and prioritize them to the person who can actually take action on them.

And that, of course, is what we're doing, you know, with intelligent management.

Well, Julian, intelligent management always comes to life best when we get an example.

Is there one that you can share with our audience today?

Yeah, sure.

So I, I think a classic one would be something like promotion execution.

So we were working with a big grocer.

They found that about 30% of promotions weren't being executed correctly or, you know, on a timely basis.

So what Corsair can do is basically track the kind of Sales ramp up of those promotions and alert people if promotions aren't, you know, accelerating.

If you're not seeing the sales of those items accelerating the way that you'd expect to given a promotion, and then suggest to the relevant manager, whether it's a department manager or a store manager, how much, you know, sales, they're missing out by not acting on it.

Yeah.

So you're using data to basically identify the fact that promotion isn't being correctly implemented and showing someone the opportunity cost of that.

But of course, that's just, you know, one layer of it.

You can also link it up and say to the district manager, well, you know, this store is having a problem implementing promotions.

You know, they've had four of these kind of incidences in the last week.

Maybe you should go and have a chat with them and give them some coaching so you can kind of link up layers of management in that way.

Got it.

So it's basically like helping the store level cross your T's and dot their I's.

Which is, which is one reason why Ann and I, since we first met you guys, you know, five or six years ago, have been all in on this, on this idea.

But, but being all in on the idea and making sense intuitively is one thing.

But how do retailers that you're working with actually form the business case around this?

Because I think a lot of people listening would probably be like, okay, how do I put numbers to this?

Yeah, well, the first thing is we're outrageously good value.

Yeah.

So we are about 3% of the cost of putting in cameras or robots or something like that.

So they're 30 times as expensive.

And we do hundreds of use cases and they probably do a couple.

So that's the first one, which is the cost on the benefit side is usually three things.

So it's first of all business improvement.

So 50 to 120 basis point sales uplift, 30 basis point shrink reduction, 20% reduction in overtime, etc.

20% improvement in store standards, etc.

So that's kind of direct benefits.

The second one is time saving.

So people are typically seeing 10 to 15% of a kind of manager's time or key holder's time saved because they're not having to go into the back room, pull up lots of different apps, look at lots of different reports, make sense to them, et cetera.

They're literally on the sales floor walking around fixing issues live.

And then the third one is store technology stacks are quite complicated.

Most people have five, six, seven different applications.

They're Running with walks and tasks, et cetera.

We're increasingly seeing people turning those off and bringing everything into Corso and that's typically delivering about a 30% kind of it saving from that.

Julian, this seems so incredibly intuitive.

Why isn't every retailer doing this right now?

Well, I think it's a great question.

Obviously, I think they should, Ann.

Yeah, I mean, we do too, I think.

Yeah, so, so I can't really say.

I'd say the two main objections we hear are, one, I think a lot of retailers think anything to do with data they should be building themselves.

Yeah.

And what I'd say is I've heard that so many times and I don't think anyone has done that yet, you know, and having been doing this for a while now, you know, I think that promise is getting a little bit thin.

So if I were a retailer, I'd be going, really?

Are you going to do it?

And then I think the second thing is getting access to IT resource.

You know, we're very quick to stand up.

I mean, Circle K, I think stood us up initially in about 25, 30 hours of it time, but it's just super busy at the moment and so even getting, you know, three, four days of someone's time could be quite difficult.

Yeah, that's fascinating too, because there's really no competitive advantage to trying to do this yourself.

It's just, it's just basically trying the data that you need to block and tackle in your store operations better.

So, like, I don't understand why, what the need is to bring that in the house.

I think retailers typically have two concerns.

The first one is that they don't want data to leave their environment and I understand that.

And candidly, you can set up Corsos if the data never leaves your environment.

The second one is, oh, but maybe our data and analytics team has got some special secret sauce about how to detect promotions not correctly implemented.

Again, that's fine.

You can run that through Corso.

Corso is a platform you can use to set up and operationalize those things very quickly and get them out to the field very quickly.

You know, if it's secret to you, it's your special recipe, you know, that can remain confidential.

So I don't think either of those concerns are really kind of valid, if that makes sense.

But maybe we're not doing, you know, maybe we need to communicate that better.

Great stuff, Julian, man, so insightful and so articulate and it's just so intuitive and I, I, I love having Julian on.

Thanks, Julian.

Great.

All right.

Headline number four PepsiCo C CEO says that it is, quote, accelerating its transition to natural ingredients, according to Food Dive.

PepsiCo CEO said during PepsiCo's first quarter earnings call with analysts on Thursday that the Cheetos and Doritos maker My Favorite and Doritos plans to have transitioned, quote, all the portfolio into natural colors or at least provide the consumer with natural color options end quote in the next quote couple years, end quote.

The comments came two days after Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F.

Kennedy Jr.

Announced the Department wants food companies to voluntarily remove or replace commonly used synthetic colors before the end of 2026.

However, replacing synthetic colors with natural ones and and friends is not easy.

It can be hard to find a suitable replacement and consumers sometimes don't like the new color.

Don't take my Doritos.

PepsiCo case in point in 20 in General Mills changed several cereals, including Trix, as part of its pledge to remove artificial colors and flavors.

I just started thinking about the Liam Neeson when he wants to buy Trix in one of the Ted movies.

Following consumer complaints and a decline in sales, General Mills brought back tricks with artificial colors a year later.

I guess tricks just aren't for kids.

Louise, how should food companies be preparing to voluntarily remove or replace artificial colors before 2027?

Is this timeline also even realistic?

This feels in your wheelhouse.

I love the the voluntarily.

I mean maybe it's an American thing and companies love to voluntarily comply with with new regulation.

But, but that's, that's going to be a big question because as you said, it's, it's not easy to do.

So as long as it's voluntary.

I'm not sure you'll see a lot of people raise their hands and do it first.

But you mentioned, and rightfully so, that you know the colors aren't going to be the same.

The brightness isn't going to be the same and you need to educate the consumer.

That's going to be a big change.

And if you look at shelves in France where I'm from versus shelves in the US it's actually pretty different.

The colors are just less vibrant in France because all of those artificial colorings are most of them are banned already.

So how quickly will the US Consumer adapt to the new offering?

That's a question mark from the R D perspective.

You know, how do you actually replace, reformulate, validate your new formulas with natural colorings?

That's going to be quite tricky.

And the timeline doesn't seem end of 2026.

We're already in 2020, you're, you're thinking corporate America right now from a planning standpoint.

So that seems extremely short from an R D standpoint.

And finally third is how do you get the relevant supply base?

So a lot of, a lot of your suppliers who work in Europe, they already have a supply chain that, that can have your, your natural coloring, but you need to bring it to the US the volumes are going to change, so it puts pressure, the prices are going to change.

So are the consumers going to want to buy for more expensive, something that looks less good from the American standards?

Going to be a big question mark as well.

So we'll see how it plays out.

If it's voluntary, not sure that will work.

If it's forced by, by the regulator, you don't really have a choice.

So that might make things work faster.

Yeah, it's a question of how long you can breathe for, you know, how much time they give you to breathe.

But eventually, I eventually have to think that some type of regulation is coming in this vein, which is, you know, for me, I think about it, I step back and I say, okay, there's a problem side and then with every problem, there's an opportunity on the problem side is you got to get ready for the regulation.

So you have to start trying to do this.

Like the point I made in the last headline too.

You got to put your product roadmap out.

You got to lay it out in front of you and you got to put a plan in place product by product and see what you can do on the timeline.

Right.

But it's not the time to breathe easy.

We heard the same thing with regards to Fisma from Angela Fernandez of GS1US earlier this week.

And remember that where she said in relation to that timeline, moving out, that regulation, moving out, you still have to do the work and get it done.

It's not a time to relax.

But the opportunity side too.

Luis, I'm curious about this is with all, with this trend happening, I think from a product development side, it tells the CPG companies that they need to lever up on the idea of food is medicine, continue to develop products in that vein to take advantage of where the trend is going overall.

From a consumer perspective, how do you think about the new product development in relation to this headline?

Yeah, for sure.

Having, you know, healthier food and communicating on it and, you know, finding new consumer pockets who are inclined to pay more for healthier and better products.

Yes, but in the current environment, with high inflationary, inflationary pressures, you're actually going the opposite direction, where a lot of consumers are foregoing more sustainable and healthier products for cheaper products which often focus less on health or sustainable aspects.

So it's a little bit of a tricky place for smaller CPGs that are already focused on the premium market.

Yeah, they, they're there.

They can have, you know, natural coloring, more sustainable products for the more mass market.

It's.

The winners are going to be the ones that are able to comply with regulation with the best price, which means they'll have done a lot of work on their supply chain and negotiated the best deals and found the best suppliers.

So, yeah, you're right.

There's a lot of conflicting forces at play here.

And what's your take here?

What, what's coming to mind for you?

I am just.

This is one of those times where you're like, oh my God, Americans were so embarrassing that we have to.

We, the General Mills went back to artificially flavored tricks like we.

So to, in my mind, it's like, unless there is a regulation, nothing's going to change.

Like, we need the regulation, I think, to shift American consumer understanding of like getting those good quality ingredients versus artificial ingredients in our food.

Otherwise this is never gonna happen.

Like, I had a friend who used to work for Kraft.

She was a food scientist for Kraft and her job for three years was just trying to figure out how to make Kraft macaroni and cheese that wasn't bright orange and still tasted the same.

And it was like the holy grail for.

I mean, she, she probably is still working on it to this day.

And I think, again, like, until this becomes something that we have to do and American consumers understand this is where products are going.

We're going the way of Europe where we just don't have artificial flavorings and colors in our food anymore.

Like, it's never going to work because we're just so accustomed.

Europe and Canada and yeah, by the.

Way, almost every other nation except for the U.S.

right.

Like, yeah, lots of people are seeing the light here.

And I think it's going to take that regulation before the American consumer gets on board.

Shout out to all our Canadian listeners up north.

Yeah.

And to Lisa's point and too, you got to get.

And what can Americans afford to that 99 cent box of Kraft Mac macaroni and cheese is pretty attractive to a lot of consumers.

Jeff, what's the last word here?

Last word.

I agree that it's coming and it will happen, but I hope they can make my Red Vines as red as they.

As red as I like them.

Oh, your Red Vines are in big trouble, Jeff.

You and Chris, both you guys better stock up.

I had eight of them yesterday, believe it or not, Jeff.

Literally, I had eight of them yesterday.

I'm like on an eight a day binge right now.

I'm so into Red Vines right now.

It's crazy.

Diabetes here we come.

All right, well, let's move on to headline number five.

We're going to talk about Snooks once more.

Schnooks plans to test local products via an incubator, according to Grocery Dive.

A year after launching its business accelerator program, Snook Markets announced Tuesday it will introduce products from the program's first cohort of local businesses in 15 of its St.

Louis area stores.

The program, called Schnooks Springboard, provides local, diverse owned businesses with education, resources and access to the grocery company's existing customer base.

Starting Wednesday, 11Miss11Missouri and four Illinois stores will offer the company's products in a four week trial to help introduce the new goods to, to their shoppers.

The grocery has also reportedly scheduled sampling events for the first weekend of May.

That's this weekend, people.

Head out to all your Schnooks select locations in Missouri and Illinois.

I'm going to go to you first, Jeff.

Generally speaking, are you pro or con the idea of local incubators within grocery stores?

The concepts, it's hard.

I mean, I think you're a terrible person if you're not pro that.

I, I, it's a, oh boy.

It's a, it's a great concept that I think does a lot for a local community.

Whether it is a profitable or the right strategic direction for a larger company to employ.

I think is if it's looking for a click, banner headline to be the unlock for them.

I'm not a big proponent of it, but I actually am not surprised at Schnooks given their family owned and operated history, seeing what they're doing in particular in the markets that they're going to employ it.

I actually don't think they were looking for a headline here.

I actually believe they were doing this because they want to get some unknown local family owned and operated brands more, more exposure.

And I think when you do it for that, for that manner in that capacity, it works.

When you do it at a, for, for a headline or, or a consumer talking piece, I think it's, it's lost.

But Jeff, I have to, I have to bring back something you said earlier in the podcast because this is something that I'm wondering about with some of These incubators.

What happens when tariffs hit these small companies?

Like you've, you've invested all this money in a local incubator and you were talking about major retailers potentially going out of business this summer.

I mean, what is, what impact could tariffs have on these programs for the small brand that suddenly is paying three times the amount of money for organic flaxseed coming from overseas?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's lights out.

I mean, I, I.

Unless you can can, can think about your, your pricing and promotional strategy in a, in a very quick manner, it'll be very challenging for, for some of these smaller bespoke brands that are are heavily reliant on, on the sourcing of their goods outside of of the US to, to weather the type of of pressure that they're, they're, that we're we're gonna, we're gonna face and we are facing right now.

You know, look, I think there's still some brands that do it well.

I think there's Huckberry as an example.

Hookberry do, and they source a lot of bespoke unique brands, obviously US based, but they do some international, a lot of international actually brands.

And, and it'll be.

And they don't, they don't do it for the promo, they don't do it for the, for, for the advertisement.

But I do believe that you have a, an opportunity with some of these smaller brands to lean into.

But it'll be interesting to see how many are actually left at the, at the end of this if this isn't resolved.

Yeah.

Luis, how would you be advising your partners at A and M or your clients at A M if they're, you know, if this is the strategy that they have to bring in new customers and really help bolster some of the local businesses?

I think one question and that's, you know, Jeff, with the CFO services, hat kind of alluded to it is, is it the right use of capital and resources for a grocer to be investing in helping develop those, those companies?

And that's a real question on, you know, how stretched can you, can you be?

Do you want to have the grocer just focused on their core business and other VCs or other players are supporting and bringing the new players to the grocer who will then distribute it, or do you want to integrate and do you think that because you're a grocer you have actually a specific set of knowledge, you know, the customers, you can very quickly scale the, the new products in your stores and help accelerate.

So, so that's a strategic question that you have to to answer and it depends on the DNA of the company.

And some companies have turned into good incubators on, on the side, but not many.

So.

Yes.

Right.

And you actually see a lot of the consumer standpoint, a lot of the big players, you know, if you think the pepsi, Coca Cola, Dr.

Peppers and others, typically they try incubating, they try developing small companies but not that many or even L'Oreal in the beauty space or not many emerge very strong.

Right.

The and how it typically works well is when they acquire a company that's already scaled, that's no longer a startup and that they can integrate in their bu.

So.

Right.

That's the biggest thing is can, can you scale if, if you do take off in the local four or five stores, are you ready to go chain wide and how quickly.

So it's more complex you're saying than pro or con?

Chris, I'll give you the last word.

Pro or con?

Local Inc.

I always love this.

I feel like the last two times we've had A and M on the show and like, you know, like I, I get very vociferous in my.

I don't think I disagree with you guys actually I think I agree with Luis.

But I'm going to, I'm going to come at Jeff a little bit and say I guess I'm the bad person that is con for the local, the local products and grocery stores because I think Luis hit it on the head.

Like I don't think most retailers have the stomach to do these for the long term.

So like with that I, like I, with that said, I'm pro the idea as long as you are 100% committed to it being an idea to give back to the community for the long term.

Like I'm talking fore or as or as R and D and like you're just comfortable losing that money every year.

And again you're going to do it every year for the R D because chances are when, when you're, when these items are stacked up against every item in the store.

I've said this a thousand times on this show.

These brands are small for a reason.

They wouldn't get in the shelf, they wouldn't get on the shelves otherwise.

So you're going to lose money on them more often than not.

Sure.

Are you going to get a winner?

Yeah, maybe every once in a while.

But it's not going to offset the cost of trying to do this day in and day out.

And the chances are, to Luis's point, the winners will get onto your shelves naturally.

Anyway, that's just how this works.

So net net.

I don't think it's a good, good investment of capital for the average retailer to think about.

Like I just, I just have not bought in on it.

But again, snooks very important in the local community.

If they're beholden to the idea of supporting local entrepreneurs, then fine.

But we've seen other examples, particularly in our local market where they say they're going to do this and then they pull the plug on it because they need to find some other growth opportunities and that's just a waste of.

Of time, in my opinion.

Yeah, so well said.

I think that's.

That's also like, where's the budget coming from?

Is this a marketing thing where you're trying to get like, are you using these local brands as marketing to draw you into your local store?

That's a marketing budget.

Then that's not a merchandising play at that point in time too.

So it's really changing how you're thinking about it, right, Chris?

Yeah, and I'd say too like as a former merchant looking at my adjacencies or my space plan on, you know, in a store, in the average store, as soon as I start to see the.

The average dollars per square foot of these items being incredibly low, I'm going after that and I'm making a play for it because I want to bring in something and I want to be the hero in my organization that helps drive comp growth year over year.

So that's what end up most of the time ends up happening here.

You've got to have a really strong leadership that's going to stick to this idea.

Right?

All right, let's go to the lightning round, you guys.

Jeff, you get the first question here.

711 has snagged the naming rights to Live nations when we were Young, a pop punk emo festival held annually in Las Vegas.

It's the first time Live Nation has sold the rights for a US festival.

Jeff, what's the best music festival you've ever attended?

Or if you haven't attended one yet, which one would you most like to attend?

Great question.

I.

It's been a while, but the last music festival that was was worth this response.

I was actually an outside of Auckland.

I don't even know what the festival was called.

I'd met some random travelers in my early 20s and got invited to a concert with.

It was Major Laser, Pearl Jam, Snoop was there.

Oh, my God.

It was.

It was definitely quite the day, but I couldn't even tell you the name of it.

It was outside of Auckland, and it was a party.

So naming.

Naming rights are relevant.

It's really about who's there.

So hopefully the.

At the.

We Were Young.

When We Were Young, Pop, Emo and Punk festival, they get some good people to headline that show.

I think that's the takeaway.

It's reported that Miami Vice is getting a reboot from maverick Top Gun, maverick director Joseph Kaczynski.

I'm curious, are you more Crockett or Tubs?

White shoes.

White Shoes.

All right, you're.

You're equally in on both.

You're.

You're equally invested.

Your portfolio is 50.

I love.

I love their style, and I love.

I love what they represent.

So I can't wait to.

I can't wait for it to come out.

Oh, my God.

All right, question number three.

Luis, this goes back to you.

Target just launched a line of sustainable wine that will be served in new compostable paper wine bottles.

I have to know, Louise, being the Frenchman on our show, would you ever bring a paper wine bottle to a party?

Or are you drinking at this.

This at home, or are you buying it at all?

Now you said it.

I'm French.

I would never bring that to a party.

But I actually appreciate the industry's.

The wine industry's ability to.

To transform and adapt and bring, you know, more sustainability.

And in fact, those bottles look pretty cool.

Yeah.

So maybe.

Maybe one day.

Maybe one day.

And I remember when it used to be you go from cork to screw caps, all the classic French people were up in arms, and in fact, it keeps the wine better.

And it's got lots of advantages, so.

And people have grown used to them.

So we'll see about the paper bottles.

Oh, boy.

So, Louise, follow up question.

That if someone were.

If you were at a party and somewhere were to.

Someone were to bring a paper wine bottle to the party, would you disdain them?

As a Frenchman, I'm curious.

No, I would actually be curious to try what's in it.

All right, nicely done.

Nicely done.

All right, last one.

Beyonce kicked off the Cowboy Carter tour on Monday in Inglewood, California.

Jeff, this one is just for you.

What is your favorite Beyonce song?

I may get skewered for this response, but.

And only because I'm a country fan.

I have to go with Texas hold'em for.

For the new age.

But if we're.

If we're talking Beyonce legacy, I probably go back to the early 2000s, when she's in Destiny's Child and go, bills, bills, bills.

I love that you.

I love that.

Jeff appropriately quoted Destiny's Child so that Michelle and all the other team get incorporated into that.

Included in that song.

The headlines for that song.

But.

Oh, man, I gotta Bodyguard.

Bodyguard is the best Beyonce song, I think, of all time from this album.

I.

I'm so upset that they're not going to be.

It's not coming through Minneapolis, so might have to catch him on the road.

Oh, man.

It's not.

Oh, wow.

Well, I'm gonna go with all the single ladies.

All the single ladies.

And we're gonna also.

Destiny's Child.

Yes.

Yeah, it was.

I thought that was Beyonce, Jeff, way in here.

It was Dusty's Child.

Oh, it was.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

God dang, I had no idea.

All right, with that note, I'm gonna go out eating micro and say happy birthday today to Anna de Armas, Kirsten Dunst, and to the man whom Ann will no doubt not be surprised that I cannot name one of his songs, as evidenced by everyone listening to this podcast now, too.

Travis Scott.

And remember, if you can only read or listen to one retail blog in the business, Make It Omnitok, the only retail media outlet run by two former executives from a current top 10 US retailer.

Our Fast Five podcast is the quickest, fastest rundown of all the week's top news.

And our daily newsletter, the Retail Daily Minute, tells you all you need to know each day to stay on top of your game as a retail executive and also regularly feature special content that is exclusive to us and that Ann and I take pride in doing just for you.

Thanks as always for listening in.

Please remember to like and leave us a review wherever you happen to listen to your podcast or on YouTube.

You can follow us today by simply going to YouTube.com omnitalkretail and Jeff, if people are interested in following along with the A and M consumer and retail group or want to reach out to either one of you and get your insights into their business, what's the best way for them to do that?

Yeah.

Thank you, Ann.

Thank you, Chris.

Always a blast on this.

So best way to find us is on LinkedIn or you can visit the Alvarez, Marcel Consumer and Retail Group website at alvarez and marcel-crg.com that's alvarez and marcel-crg.com awesome.

Awesome.

Welco.

Well, until next week, thank you both for being here.

Luis, Jeff, have a great weekend.

And to all our fans out there, we hope you have a wonderful one as well.

On behalf of all of us at Omnitok, be careful out there.