EP 36: Could You Be in an Emotionally Abusive Relationship?

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Welcome to Nut Alone with Melissa Sue Methvin.

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Today's episode is a special one.

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This is a dear friend, Gina Wymiller.

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We lived probably five-minute walking distance from each other and was still in Alaska.

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We went to the same gym.

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We smiled to each other.

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We held a hand to each other.

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She had beautiful horses, and we invited my daughter over, who is a horse lover, to give treats to her horses.

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But one thing we had in common is we hid our truth.

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We hid the lives that we we lived in in our acreage in Alaska.

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Oftentimes we know our neighbors, we wave at them, we smile, but we never truly check in.

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We hide behind the smiles, and that's why I wrote the truth behind the smiles.

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We came to realize once my husband passed, her life unfolded as well.

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And the truth I would have never known that she hid so well.

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So she has a story that needs to be shared, which I'm so excited.

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She told me she was visiting in town and wanted to meet up for a coffee.

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I said, better yet, let's have a podcast.

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So today I want to welcome her because I know her story could save a life and help you guide you when you feel you're in a prison and it's so hard to see your truth in a way out.

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So welcome, thank you, Gina.

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Thank you.

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I am so excited.

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I am too.

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Thank you.

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And you look amazing and thank you for saying yes.

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Uh, because I think your story, and actually, even though I know a little bit about you, you know, because we've checked in on each other so much through that big transition, you know, you were even at my estate cell, which seems like a blur to me because that was that was that was a big estate cell.

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Yeah.

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That was a lot, and you were there as as my neighbor, as a friend, helping me through the hardest times of my life.

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Uh and truly, I always say, how do I get through it?

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Well, my my faith, but community.

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Yeah.

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The community really came to to save me and my family and to support us.

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And you were right there.

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But in the same time, I had no clue what you were going through at the time.

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Yeah, most people didn't.

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Um the thing about um, you know, and I know the word narcissism is thrown around so much, and it, and I don't even like using it.

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I never used it in the duration of my relationship.

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I never really used it with friends, um, and I didn't actually even know what it was uh for a long time.

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And um, I was with somebody that was a covert or victim narcissist.

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I've since learned way more than I ever wanted to learn about it, um, and I'm by no means an expert, but I did have to learn how to survive it.

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Um, it is a form of emotional abuse when you're in a relationship with a covert narcissist.

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Um, I'm not even a hundred percent sure that they're aware of what they're doing all of the time, but um, when I made the connection of the the traits of a covert narcissism with what I was feeling inside, um everything kind of fell into place and made sense.

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And then um, you know, as a matter of my faith, I'm I'm not in favor of divorce ever, but God didn't design us to be loved in abuse.

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And um, it took a lot for me, both with my church and with my family, and finally with my community, um, like you said, to to be able to break free from it.

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Um it's something that is very, very slow.

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It's a it's a slow boiling pot of water, and I'm not even sure.

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I I think that the point that I recognized that something was really wrong was when instead of waking up in the morning and being with the person that you're with and saying, What can I do for this person today?

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I want to, you know, this is a person I want to lift up, but I want to be, you know, the best part of their day, what can I do?

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Instead of that, I was waking up thinking, how can I not upset this person?

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How can I um make sure that we have a good day?

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You know, what can I do to not do something wrong is is kind of walking on eggshells.

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Absolutely.

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Constantly in that fear state.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And um, and also the physical traits.

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Um, I know, you know, we both went to the same gym and um I was there for about 10 years, and I know the people that we went with that were also there for that long started seeing differences in me, seeing changes.

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Alina, especially, right?

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Um, she would was very as many clients as she has, she's so tuned into all of them, and she would say, What's going on?

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What's wrong?

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Um, and actually when when Scott passed away and we and we got on board with you, it was it was kind of cathartic for me because I saw that process of, you know, even though my husband was still alive, it was the death of a relationship.

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And and what you went through was much more horrific and much more wasn't your choice.

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It's still the same process of the grieving process, you know, the the sadness, the acceptance, the anger, the bargaining, you know, the whole fight.

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Well, I always say that.

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I always say that divorce is just kind of the same.

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It's a death, right?

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Like a dream, you thought you absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And by the time I got to that point of acceptance, I still tried to encourage him to see what was happening to me.

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But um, the traits of covert narcissism unfortunately don't allow the covert narcissist or victim narcissist to see that.

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The reason that it's called victim narcissism is because they only see themselves as victims.

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As victims.

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Now, how long were you married for?

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Uh 13 years.

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13 years.

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And now, did you now, if you go back, did you notice any signs that that was early on?

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That marks.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, it's a again, it's a very slow, and and there's so many resources out there nowadays.

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Um, most of them are are pretty good.

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Um there's there's quite a few, you know, podcasts out there and um online resources to kind of recognize that.

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But um, I think for me, I I saw a clip from Dr.

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Phil that was kind of like bullet pointing things.

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And all of the sudden the last 12 years of my life made more sense of you know, of apologizing for feelings, of um, you know, I isolating myself.

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My only outside group by the time it was all over was the gym.

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And um, and that was really my only group of friends.

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I was alienating my children um just because I had to give all of the attention to the marriage to try and keep things together and keep things happy.

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And so um I was very isolated at the end.

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And the other really tricky part of covert narcissism is you're the only one that sees it.

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The the person that's in it and the person that's working through it is the only one that sees it.

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Yeah, you feel like nobody else can see that person.

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They can't.

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They can't see it's it was at the end.

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I think I had two people that said we we kind of saw what was going on, you know, uh on the outside.

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Um, did you find that that was what kept you from really talking to anybody else and saying, This is how I feel every day?

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Because you'd probably like, well, I don't see him like that.

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Well, no, he's very beloved in the community.

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Um, you know, uh image is a huge thing, and so maintain maintaining that image of being, you know, good looking and um in shape and you know, friendly to people, and um that image is vitally important um behind closed doors, it's a different thing.

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So, yeah, so when when it came time to start making that move, there were uh very few people that really understood what I was going through.

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So the nap kind of keeps that spiraling, which I see in so many women and men as well, that it kind of spirals like, well, maybe I'm kind of crazy, or maybe it's not always bad, you know.

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Did you find that that's kind of spiraled in your mind?

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And that's why you stayed for so long?

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Yeah, the the the um self-blame of because that's the whole relationship, right?

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Is I'm angry with you and it's your fault that I'm angry with you.

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And so then I try to figure out.

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And I'm a I'm a one one myth, kind of backing up a little bit, that I want to absolutely dispel, is that it's not just um insecure, you know, introverted people that fall victim to this.

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I was um, I had been a single mother for 12 years, I was a manager since I was in my 20s.

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Yeah, you're a career woman, very independent, yeah.

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And so, and so for it to happen to me was embarrassing too.

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Of you know, how can I be a victim of emotional abuse?

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I know women that are, you know, outwardly abused, uh emotionally or physically.

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How could it happen to me?

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You know, and then yeah, I look back on the signs, you know, the in it I some of these terms are just so overused, but the love bombing, right?

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The you're amazing, you're wonderful, and then there's a there's a process of from the love bombing, then there becomes this um mirroring of behavior.

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Oh, you like horses, I like horses, let's get horses, you know, and and this connection, and then you go through like a trauma bonding where there's a an incident that bonds you to that person.

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And in my case, it was the um it was a uh accusation because I had been divorced from my ex-husband for 12 years, um, my kids' father, and he and I were friends, we still are friends, you know, and and we had redefined that relationship so that we could raise our kids together.

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And the fact that we were friends did not make sense to him, and um, there was an accusation of an affair, and um it just no like there was no way out of that accusation, you can't prove a negative, right?

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And so um it was just a it was a very traumatic experience being accused of that.

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I think that was year three of the marriage, and yeah, and it kind of went down from that.

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Because you had three kids, and then he had three kids as well.

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I was raising, yeah.

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We had a blended family, and I was raising those kids um as well.

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So now do you so was there any physical abuse?

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No, no, no, not at all.

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Which is almost sometimes it's so hard for people to see it as abuse because you're like, well, I'm not getting physical abuse, so it's really it takes a long time to see it as abuse, right?

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And you know what?

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That was that was me too.

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I never saw it as abuse.

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I was like, well, I'm not getting you know beaten, and I'm not this, but they keep you so small and same like me, the status, the look, all this stuff.

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We you know, nobody would have believed me about that with Scott either.

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Right.

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Right, yeah.

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And I and I know, you know, when when he passed away and and we all kind of rallied and and you know, we're trying to help you through all of that, some of those things started coming out.

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And um, you know, and you and I had another mutual friend at the gym whose whose son um shot her.

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I don't know if I can say that, but but it was the same thing.

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It was like there's this picture perfect family.

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How does this happen?

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You know, and that was that was a accumulation of a lot of anger in that household, you know.

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And and I think for us, yeah, everybody, you know, from the outside it's like this picture perfect family.

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But that's the that's why do you think we did that?

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I mean, I think I don't know, I I guess I can only speak for me.

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I guess it was just oh that brain fog that you kind of get into.

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And it's like, well, like you said, the faith.

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I'm like, well, I married to to death do a spark, really, which is kind of scary because that's what parted us at the end.

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But I probably should have left way before.

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Yeah.

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Was I and I keep on going, was I enabling all this?

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And why was I at a place almost not creating these boundaries in myself?

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You know, but I think what happens, you're they that's how fear keeps you captive.

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Think of COVID.

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Yeah, how do they keep us captive?

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Absolutely.

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Fear, and the more they put you down, and in that fear state, you're scared staying, but you're also scared leaving.

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How many times that I was kind of ready to go?

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But there was a few people going, oh no, you can't just leave like that.

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Right.

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What's gonna something could happen to you?

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Right.

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I had some people worry about that, you know.

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And so it's a hard one, especially when you have kids.

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I don't know about you, but I felt I had more control staying what happens with my kids.

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Because of course, the statute of my husband, he would have had 50-50 in custody.

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So the biggest fear I find with women that I've spoken to that have been in abuse and now out of it is that oh my gosh, I still have to be half the time.

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My kids have to be there, and I have no control of the abuse that's going on there.

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And that was a big fear of mine because I knew what state he was in on all uh the drug abuse, the alcohol.

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I was like, oh my gosh, I can't trust that gave me anxiety.

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Yeah.

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So there's a there was something that I read, you know, early on that was um called the fog fear, obligation, and guilt.

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And those are three communication techniques that they use to keep you um, to control you.

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The whole thing's about control, right?

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Because if you if they can control you, you can't leave.

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And the fear, obligation, and guilt was a huge thing.

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And and for me, I did feel a lot of responsibility to my stepkids.

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Um, I still do.

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Uh, and and of course my kids, and my my kids and my stepkids were all pretty close in the house.

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My um, you know, they're they're all they're all, I mean, we get together anytime I go to Alaska, um we see them at least once a year.

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We all come together as a family, even though they're stepkids, because we still feel that way.

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They call my mom grandma, you know.

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It's yeah, um, but that fear, obligation, and guilt of what's gonna happen if I leave, you know.

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And in my case, too, I think, and and probably yours too, there's a status in the community that you don't want to be the one that left this amazing man, because then here's another term that you learn is flying monkeys, is that um they go around and tell their narrative of whatever's going on.

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I I've always been very this is really the first time I've talked publicly about um, you know, about uh this marriage in particular and this person.

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Um, but the flying monkeys and the people that reach out and and they say, Oh, well, I hear, you know, you were abusive, and I hear, and it's a the projection comes to back on me.

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So the stories that I would hear were like that that wasn't what happened at all, you know.

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And the gaslighting's part of it, of course, but um, but I think the fear, obligation, and guilt is what keeps us as strong independent women in there.

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You know, you don't want to, you don't want to um ruin lives of children, even even the the abuser, you feel very responsible for the abuser, and that's part of the communication process that they get you into of, you know, well, I'm you know, I have this illness, I have this addiction, I have this, you know, problem, and if you leave me, that's never gonna get better.

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And you promised me, you know, it would get better.

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Yes, because a lot of w people will stay too, because they're like, Well, what they fear of suicide if they leave.

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But I always tell them, Well, I stayed and what happened, yes, right?

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So ultimately living in that state of constant fear, yeah, projected on your kids as well.

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I kept on going, my mind, would I would I want my daughter to stay in something like this too?

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And so that really played in my mind a lot.

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And I knew it wasn't, it wasn't a good atmosphere for anybody, but it was so scary.

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It's like I created my own prison and I didn't know a way out.

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You know, it was really scary.

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And since then, after my husband passed, I was able to help some other women get out of abuse, and it's it's it's so hard, right?

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But they have to come to their own clarity that it is abuse, yeah.

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Uh especially when it's just it's meant, you know, mental and not so much physical with a narcissistic and so much healing happens after.

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It's not just okay, I'm out, everything's okay.

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No, your body's been in that fear state for so long, and your kids too.

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There's a lot happening physically and mentally too that they have to navigate.

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So, can you share what process that was to even what got you to finally get out?

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So I I give a lot of credit to God because I do think that um, you know, I made I made some conscious choices.

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Okay, we'll we'll try counseling.

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Um, I will be honest because that's one of my one of the my biggest regrets in the relationship was that I started being very dishonest with my children, with him, just to avoid any trauma, right?

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To avoid um like times of conflict.

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I like my kids would want me to come over for dinner, and I would be like, oh no, because I knew he wouldn't want that or he wouldn't support that, or he would be, you know, texting or whatnot while I was over there, and it was just easier to not go to dinner.

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Um, and so I I learned to be very manipulative in that in the in the honest sense, right?

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Um, and so that wasn't I I couldn't recognize myself anymore.

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That's not who I am, it's not who I was.

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And um, and it between that not liking who I was, um, I was seeking a lot of um counseling from the church, I was seeking counseling from every anywhere I could get it, right?

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Information, um, what do I do?

00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:49.599
And when I finally realized that the biggest problem is that they don't know how to change, they don't change.

00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:56.240
I mean, it's a you can Google that and find that the people say, or get on the boards, and you know, what do I do?

00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:57.759
Will he ever change?

00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.839
And um, no, he won't change.

00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:18.240
There's there's a uh a really good um uh guy out there, his name uh can't remember his name, but his uh channel is mental healness, and he's a diagnosed narcissist, and he talks about here's what I do, here's what they do, here's what you can and can't do about it.

00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:23.039
And he flat out says, I've been diagnosed, I work on it, it's not something we recover from.

00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:24.960
So at that point you make a choice.

00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.319
Is this my life and this is what I just learned to live with?

00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:36.160
And my life continues to be around this person, and I watch my kids go off and my grandkids, and or do I make a change?

00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:49.039
And so I had to make decisions, and I and I tell anybody that because I do have uh a lot of people that seek um seek advice out for dealing with narcissists and um or breakups or whatnot.

00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.599
It's all about the choices that you make, right?

00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.319
So um they've made their choice.

00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:55.920
Now I have to make my choice.

00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.119
I either live with it or I decide to move on.

00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.200
And either way, I own that choice.

00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:06.880
And I have to put my head on a pillow at night and feel good about how I conducted myself during the day.

00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.279
You know, giving myself some grace for some of the breakdowns, you know, that's so important.

00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:19.200
I think a lot of people don't give themselves enough grace for here's what you're going through, you may have handled it poorly, it's not the end of the world, you know.

00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:26.720
Um, and and uh once I made that decision, then I really believe God shut my heart off.

00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:35.279
Because literally the next day, I the the I didn't view him the same, his physical appearance wasn't the same.

00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:42.319
I wasn't um I wasn't as tricked or drawn into the to the manipulation.

00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.079
Um, and and that's really I wasn't in the house at that point.

00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.920
I moved into my horse trailer, was living in my horse trailer.

00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:56.079
Um and uh but but still going to counseling, still trying to reconcile, trying to work through things.

00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:02.000
And I think at that point, um, you know, when I saw him one day and it he just wasn't the same person.

00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:05.359
Um and so, but I know that's a lot easier said than done.

00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:13.039
And even when I moved away out of Alaska, it was still there was I was still kept that hope of maybe things are gonna change.

00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.559
Um, maybe he'll change, maybe he'll see things the way they are.

00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:18.559
I feel we spiral through that.

00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.799
Is it because it's not always bad, right?

00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.160
They're not always bad.

00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.559
Yeah, so we we're like, well, he's he's good sometimes.

00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:28.160
So maybe he'll be like that all the time.

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:32.799
So they they give you just enough to keep you going.

00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:38.000
And that's part of the love bombing, and and when you feel that love, it's so amazing.

00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:45.680
And you this this person that you think is uh a wonderful person gives you and makes you feel like a wonderful, wonderful person.

00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.400
And so you hang on to that, and then you do everything you can to get back to that.

00:20:50.559 --> 00:21:11.599
And so when there's a fall from the pedestal, you is what I call it, because I remember the point in time where it was like, you know, he had me on this pedestal, and when I came off that pedestal, I spent the next 12 years trying to get back on it, you know, and and working really, really hard to make him see me the way he did in the beginning.

00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:18.960
And there was just enough of that, you know, we'd go on vacations or we'd go to dinner, or there was just enough of that to keep me going.

00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.680
And it's it's an addiction, you know, you keep chasing that.

00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.920
And I think a lot of people they fear leaving as well, like financially, right?

00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:30.000
Because a lot of the control sometimes is it removes some of the finances, right?

00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:30.640
Yes.

00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:35.680
And and I know that was a game that Scott definitely played with me, you know, even though I'd work.

00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.960
It's like, well, you're working now, so then I will take this away, and then all this stuff.

00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:42.640
So it just became this constant spiral.

00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:46.960
And I know a lot of women trying to leave, it's like, well, how am I gonna afford, you know, apartments?

00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:51.359
How am I gonna afford um a new beginning and you know, feeding my children?

00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:55.200
And uh so they kind of spiral in feeling stuck, yeah.

00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:10.720
Even though I I truly believe that God will always provide, you know, we might not have all the answers when they say that, but I've said this is not the atmosphere you need for you and your family, so God will always provide just you know, the prayer and trusting and stepping into it, you know.

00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.400
Yeah, miracles do happen.

00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:13.119
I've seen it.

00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:21.279
Absolutely, and I I was very fortunate in that um I've always had a really well-paying job and I could work remote.

00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.200
And so I was fortunate that way, but I do know that that's not common.

00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:32.240
It's not common for for somebody to be able to support themselves solely by themselves after um after leaving.

00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.200
And I I agree, God, God will provide.

00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:45.759
Um, and if you know someone's considering leaving and and um were should they leave, but they feel stuck because of that, the finances, there are a lot of resources out there.

00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:59.759
Um, I am part of a nonprofit called Thrival, and we actually teach not necessarily the financial part of things, but just the independent part of things, how to be independent, how to in where I'm from in Idaho now, um, you know, how to hunt.

00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:10.400
And I've heard stories of women that um decided to leave and then they went hunting literally to put food on the table, you know, and um and just crawl back up from there.

00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.680
And um Yeah, tell me about this program because you know I've looked it up.

00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:24.000
You told me a little bit about it, but it's it sounds like you try and build the women up because now they've been in that fog, they've been, you know, playing small, but you're trying to regain their power, yeah, right?

00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.559
Their resilience there where their strength.

00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.920
So there are several aspects to to what we do.

00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:42.000
Um uh the the president Tara, she is a firearms instructor and self-defense instructor, and so um we do classes for self-defense and firearm instruction.

00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:44.559
Um, we've had camps where we bring women out.

00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:55.920
I think we had 60 or 70 women out and did all kinds of things from you know, from hunting, archery, um, hunting with hounds, um, you know, uh game processing.

00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:01.200
And it was amazing because a lot of the women were experienced, but a lot of them were not.

00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:06.079
Um my daughter-in-law, for example, was one that had never gone hunting and never processed.

00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:12.640
She just got her second deer this year, you know, um, because she learned how to do that and learned how to be self-sufficient.

00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:24.319
And it just changes, even if you're not in that um environment, it changes your feeling of I don't have to, I want to depend on somebody, you know, if you're in a relationship, but you don't have to.

00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:38.960
And that confidence that it gives you, that kind of healing from the years of being told you weren't good enough or that you you were um failing, you know, and that was that was another big thing for me was I am not used to failing.

00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:40.079
I don't like to fail.

00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:44.400
So failing in a marriage and a family was not an option at that point.

00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:48.079
And so, um, but within the marriage, I was constantly told I was failing.

00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:56.799
You're not making me happy, you're not um taking care of the kids the right way, you're not supporting me in when you know, when you should be supporting me.

00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.400
There was just this constant message of failure um to me.

00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.400
And again, that was part of the control.

00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.599
Um so that's one thing we do in the in the organization.

00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:06.880
We use horses too.

00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:13.279
Um do a lot of uh things with horses and and just uh, you know, I can we can make a whole separate podcast on the thing.

00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:17.440
I've done it once, and oh, it's very powerful.

00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.559
Uh they can hold so much of your trauma and give so much back to you too.

00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:27.759
Because do you ever question why you attracted a man like that?

00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.039
Do you ever ask yourself that?

00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:29.759
Because I know I do.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:30.079
Yes.

00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:39.200
Yeah, you know, and I and I think um, you know, and I go back and I look at it, and because I was single for a long time and I wasn't really actively dating even.

00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:52.240
Um, and uh I don't I think that there's a myth out there that they that um narcissists look for uh women that are insecure or uh you know shy or introverted or anything like that.

00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:53.759
And and it's just not the truth.

00:25:53.920 --> 00:26:00.960
And a lot of the women that I've met over the years, you know, online or whatnot are independent business owners, you know.

00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:07.440
Um, and I think that the men, I think that they just seek out somebody that is an empath.

00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:13.839
And again, a word that gets used over and over, but you know, us as empaths uh do seek to help people.

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:21.920
You know, we get our gratitude from helping others from you know, you starting this podcast and the things that you've done since Scott passed away is amazing.

00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:29.839
And everything I I know that you've helped so many women that you don't even know about, you know, and that's part of your empathetic personality.

00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:31.759
And I think that they seek that out.

00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:40.559
And in the first date, you know, they figure that out when you talk about the things that you do or your children, or um it we're we're not we're not good at hiding.

00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.880
Yeah, that's that's so true.

00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:43.839
Yeah.

00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:48.480
So how do you work on yourself now not to attract that again?

00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:49.759
What did you have to do?

00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.400
I I didn't actually start dating for about three years.

00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:55.039
Um after after no, I think I two years.

00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:55.200
Yeah.

00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.400
I was like, oh, I better do a lot of work so I don't try to say exactly.

00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:25.359
And you know, and I and I don't think one of my um I I did go to a therapist for a while, and one of the things she said was that rings very true is be careful that you if you find yourself bored in a relationship, that it's not just because you're so used to the the drama and the chaos, you know, and so that for me was okay, I'm gonna, you know, be sure that if I meet a nice guy, you know, there's there's not that.

00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:33.759
Um at my age, um, I just turned 59 and um the dating pool isn't there, it's not super active out there.

00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.319
Um, the men that are out there, you know, it was it was hard.

00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:37.920
It is hard to getting back into it.

00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.480
My husband passed at 42, you know, probably about you know, 44.

00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:44.319
I thought, okay, yeah, put myself out there.

00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.319
And like you said, it's it's it's awful.

00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.880
I know so many people are like, oh yeah, go on these dating apps.

00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:49.680
It wasn't for me.

00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:51.920
I said, God will send me somebody.

00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.960
And that was when I was like, I'm not gonna date unless God himself drops somebody on the door here.

00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:00.559
And um, now and that and it ended up being a little bit different.

00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:10.079
Um, my my current my boyfriend um had reached out to me on a dating app that I wasn't really active on either, and he called and he was like, Well, let's you know, let's go have dinner.

00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:17.920
And I'm like, Oh, I got this, I got mounted shooting practice, I got, you know, horses to take after, I've got, you know, work I've got to do.

00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:19.599
And he was like, Well, let's go right now.

00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:21.599
It doesn't sound like you're super busy, like right.

00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:25.680
So literally, like, I got ready for this date, and he's a very kind man.

00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:36.160
And I he uh I'm I try to be very careful about not making him pay for the sins of others, but um, but there are times when I'll, you know, some of that.

00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.799
So we we go through what's called a condition response.

00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:49.119
That's how we when we at the end of things become the bad guy, it's because we've got this condition response to be defensive, or because we know it's coming, we know the attack is coming.

00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:54.880
So um the smallest things set us off, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, look at how you're responding.

00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:56.480
You're responding like a crazy person.

00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.559
So I'm aware of that, and I made him very aware in the beginning that um this this could be a thing.

00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:08.000
I may, I may be set off by things that you don't see coming or you don't know about.

00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:19.119
Um, but back to your question about how do you avoid narcissists, I think just once you've learned um the uh, you know, we all we all have a little bit of narcissism in us, right?

00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:26.640
So everybody has a little bit of those tendencies, but the ability to flip it into emotional abuse is a is a unique characteristic.

00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:31.839
Um so I would go on dates and I would um very much pick up on the signals.

00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:36.240
I I went on a date with a retired cop and should have been a red flag.

00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:50.079
But um, but yeah, the the um uh soaking in everything that you're saying and in a way and then like um using it to connect with you later.

00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:58.160
It's a it's a very subtle process, but I think I spent so long, I really spent those three years learning what to avoid.

00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:03.680
And I think the bigger Thing for me too is having boundaries that I didn't have before.

00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:10.640
Um, you know, when I when I first started dating my ex-husband, I didn't have good boundaries because I was like, this is a great guy.

00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:11.680
Why do I need boundaries?

00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:13.599
I don't need to be protected from anything.

00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:14.640
Um, and now I do.

00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:21.119
I have some very strong boundaries that um that are are difficult for my boyfriend, but he's getting there.

00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:27.680
But yeah, the boundaries healing to get together, he's helping you heal parts, you know, that he didn't know were that he didn't know.

00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:30.480
Yeah, for sure.

00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:37.039
But I think that's that so is that what you would tell your younger self to have more boundaries?

00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:38.799
Absolutely, and more self-worth.

00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:39.920
Yes, yeah, absolutely.

00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:59.200
I think if I had those boundaries in the beginning, and I don't know if it was about self-worth, it was more about, you know, when I would make excuses for something that wasn't good behavior or wasn't right or wasn't good for me, um, instead of making those excuses recognize that no, this is not okay.

00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:05.200
You know, it's not okay for me to come to you with a feeling and then end up apologizing for it.

00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:06.720
That's that's not okay.

00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:07.759
Those are things that I have.

00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.200
That would be a good lesson for anybody hearing and starting the date.

00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:18.720
And those are kind of the red flags when you know something was wrong, a behavior, but then you're it's turned back around on you.

00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:19.359
Yes.

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:21.680
And that those are red flags.

00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.079
Yeah, you know, that those that's how it all starts.

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:39.440
Yeah, or when you try to um point out something that's maybe is not doesn't seem healthy or doesn't seem right, and it ends up you apologizing for, you know, oh I'm I'm sorry, I pointed that out in you, you know, a behavior that doesn't seem right, you know.

00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:45.680
Yeah, because I don't for me, it seemed like even though I point out some it never would want to see it.

00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:46.000
Right.

00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:51.200
You know, they'd always say, No, I'm not like this, I'm not the, you know, I'm not addicted, I'm not anything, right?

00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:51.519
Yeah.

00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:54.240
So they can never remove see it themselves.

00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:54.880
Right, right.

00:31:55.119 --> 00:32:01.519
So then you kind of spiral like thinking you're kind of crazy or maybe you're wrong and and turn back on you.

00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.720
So it plays tricks in your mind a lot, which is why I find.

00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.000
And and now how do you think it's affected your kids?

00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:10.000
Like how are your kids doing after all?

00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:24.799
You know, it was it was interesting because when I s when I got into therapy and we were doing a little EMDR and stuff, I found that my um feelings of brokenness weren't necessarily from the failed marriages, it was from failing my children.

00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:35.680
Um, and it was for not standing up for them or not um and and allowing them to see me transform into this person that they didn't recognize.

00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:44.319
You know, the my my daughter, bless her heart, she called me out one day for um not being honest, and she flat out said, You're not honest about things, you know.

00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:51.279
I and it had to do with something where she wanted me to go do something with her, and I was like, Oh, I don't know, you know, and and she flat out called me out.

00:32:51.359 --> 00:33:01.839
She was in college at the time, and it was the best thing that could have ever happened for our relationship and and for me because I had to take a good honest look at myself and and know that.

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:16.880
So I've spent some time um apologizing to my kids for, in fact, I was just having this conversation with my son um yesterday about, you know, I'm sorry that I didn't stand up for you guys, and I'm sorry that I um put you guys second in my life.

00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:28.160
You know, and it was funny because when we got together, that was one of the things I told him was, you know, I'm a single mother, and um don't ever make me choose between you and my children because you're gonna lose that choice.

00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.200
And it wasn't true in the end, well, towards the end.

00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:33.759
It was true finally, you know, but towards the end.

00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:38.480
So that's um, I've spent a lot of time, you know, trying to make amends.

00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:49.359
I did I did realize that you know, my my stepchildren don't really see it as much as my children do, my biological children, but um maybe don't allow themselves to see, right?

00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:54.240
Yeah, well, and they love their father and that and they have a great relationship, and that's you know, that's great.

00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:58.559
Um that's good that you don't, you know, you don't try and create that for them, you know.

00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:04.079
That's I I truly believe bringing children into adult problems is is child abuse.

00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:04.480
Yeah.

00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:18.480
I think that um making them part of the the dark and dirty is not it uh it's just abusive, or making them part of your relationship problems or or when the relationship ends to use them as weapons or I think that's the worst.

00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:19.920
It's devastating, actually.

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.079
That's one thing Scott went through when his parents divorced, you know.

00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:36.800
Um I know for a fact that that's kind of was a big part of his falling out with relationship with his mother, yeah, is because of the back talking and all that.

00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.719
It was so toxic.

00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:46.800
Yeah, so toxic to do that, and it really affected the relationship with his mother, which in turn was so hurtful for him.

00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:50.960
It was this like abandonment and not understanding and ever working on that.

00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:55.440
So yeah, that's a very good advice because keeping the kids out, it just hurts them even more.

00:34:55.599 --> 00:35:05.199
You know, they already, I find kids already when there's divorce or death, there's this guilt and shame like it was their fault, which happens so often.

00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:11.760
I know my my children still feel like, well, maybe I should have done something differently or should have loved dad more, you know.

00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:19.119
And maybe my a lot, a lot of divorced kids, maybe um I should have done been better so that my kid my parents stay together, you know.

00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:33.920
So I think they're already going through so much, yeah, and ultimately just working on yourself and trying to create that peaceful atmosphere for them, but also there is a truth that they seek too, so then there's an understanding.

00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:38.719
I know my kids, there's a lot of things they well, they were there, and I know they saw a lot of the traumas.

00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:44.159
So it was important for my daughter who's such an old soul to know uh the truth.

00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:47.599
She really fought me on that a lot, so that was important as well.

00:35:47.920 --> 00:36:02.559
But uh same time, uh, for me, just like you, just doing the work and now being able to use our voice in our stories, because I know there's some people right now listening, and they're in that situation and they don't know how to get out.

00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:08.000
And I always say, sometimes, did you did you ever write a lot too throughout that process?

00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.440
Did you find you came into your own clarity when you were writing?

00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:12.320
I I did.

00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:21.599
Um, a lot of it I found was kind of gibberish, and um, you know, and I um I have a problem because I'm a relatively logical-minded person.

00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:30.400
So I would start writing, and then I would my brain would wander of, you know, well, there's something else I could be doing, or let me write my grocery list instead, you know, things like that.

00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:42.000
But um, and and I think like one prayer that I say every day is um is asking God to still my heart and still my still my head and still my heart.

00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:50.000
You know, I just want to be still, you know, and it obviously there's a a verse in the Bible that came up today on the app about being still.

00:36:50.320 --> 00:37:01.360
And that I think, and through meditation and breath work and all of the things that you do, that's the only way to still your mind when you're when you're someone like me that's just constantly wanting to go, go, go, go, go.

00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:15.599
Um, and it's very important to do that so that you can start to find that clarity because there's a whole lot of other things you can think about and occupy your time and your mind and your body with than actually bringing yourself back into health.

00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:16.960
There's so many things, you know.

00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:38.239
Yeah, so what did you incorporate, like that stillness, like just meditation, uh yeah, meditation, prayer, exercise, even even when I'm exercising, I'm you know, trying to be focused on what I'm doing in exercise and not, you know, thinking about all the things I'm gonna get done afterwards, you know, and um just taking that time for myself, taking that time to be at peace.

00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.119
I'm again very fortunate because of the horses.

00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:43.360
I can get on a horse and go in the mountains.

00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:46.000
Um, the mountains are always my solitude.

00:37:46.159 --> 00:38:02.719
I mean, and and I can tell if I've been away for a couple of days or a couple of weeks, I start to get a little antsy about, you know, I need to get out there, I need to get out of cell phone service and just I noticed that so much, and that's why I took my kids out of town yesterday to be out in nature.

00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:12.079
There was nobody on this hike yesterday, and surrounded by trees, and I feel that I went to film Rider's Island a couple months ago, and it's such a sacred island.

00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:19.199
There's no noise, it's no busyness, and gosh, you know, the when you're praying there, it's so clear and that clarity.

00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:28.400
And in the minute I flew back home, it's like I have the had this anxiety in my own home, and I feel like, oh, I've got a nice home, like it's a sacred place.

00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:32.079
Oh no, I felt like I need to go hit the mountains, I need to go out in nature.

00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:42.880
So that there's something about that to always seek that stillness in nature with no noise, no cell phone uh to really reconnect, right?

00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:44.000
And find that stillness.

00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:44.719
And you have to share.

00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:46.559
I mean, you're pretty badass.

00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.960
You do this like horse key joring.

00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:52.000
Explain what you do.

00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:55.039
I mean, we're gonna have to put a little video of you what you're doing.

00:38:56.079 --> 00:39:00.960
Some of it is just uh the adrenaline, and there is something for me about the adrenaline.

00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:02.639
It's there's some connection to the horse.

00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:05.840
Uh, I've got a couple of them that I feel very connected to anyway.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:11.599
But there's something about that adrenaline, and a lot of, you know, for I rode horses in my marriage.

00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:19.920
My my husband also rode horses and at the time, and um, and we did a lot of you know running and whatnot, but I never could do anything independently.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.840
You know, I couldn't, I couldn't go do really something on my own on the horses.

00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:26.400
And in Alaska, there really wasn't that opportunity.

00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:34.239
So when I like literally the first winter I moved to um Idaho, I had a friend that ski jorred, and um I told her she was in Whitefish.

00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:35.840
I said, I'm gonna come up and watch you guys.

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.800
She goes, Well, my husband just had knee surgery, why don't you try it?

00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.119
And I'm like, Okay, I'll do that.

00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:50.320
Horse I'd never met, um, or in a skier I had never met who had also never done ski jor, um, on a course, uh, you know, doing something I'd never done.

00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:56.800
And the cathartic rush of that, and just um the adrenaline is is a thing.

00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:58.320
That's probably one of my drugs.

00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.880
Although as I get older, I'm finding less and less.

00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:05.039
But um, but it was so much fun, and I got hooked on it.

00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:18.880
And we happened to win that weekend, and we won a pretty good amount of money, and um, and then I got hooked on it, and then uh, and then I had a friend that does um that was doing mounted shooting, uh, which is another adrenaline sport.

00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:27.679
You're you're going as fast as you can on a horse shooting balloons with a with 45 blanks, and it just and that's my summer gig, and then the ski drawer is the winter gig.

00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:48.639
And I think that having that um having that uh connection with the horse and that um adrenaline, and it's a very they're very independent um things that you're doing, although ski drawers at team sport, um, so you you have to be good to your skier, um, it's a it's just a very um cathartic thing for me to do.

00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:51.519
I think hobbies are so important no matter what they are.

00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:01.760
If it's crochet or you know, running as fast as you can on a horse in the snow or whatever at flying, whatever it is that you can do as a hobby, I think those are very important.

00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:06.320
And those are the times when I can disconnect and and yes, things that you enjoy.

00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:10.559
You love horses and now you get this real and you know, community.

00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:15.599
And I just love that video that I saw of you and you know, just pure joy and excitement.

00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:16.239
Oh yeah.

00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:17.840
So I'm so happy for you.

00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:20.639
And so what's in the future for you right now?

00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:25.760
So gosh, I you know, I keep thinking I'm gonna head towards retirement, and then I keep getting busier.

00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:41.199
I just got um uh asked to be on another board uh of a nonprofit called Branded Brothers, which is uh uh again equine therapy, but it's for military veterans, first responders, um, peop people with PTSD, and we teach them how to care for the horses like ground up.

00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:48.320
Start with here's the horse's hooves, how to care for them, you know, and and get that, and and that equine therapy, like you said, is a is a real thing.

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:49.920
Or can you explain it?

00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:52.800
I've done it, and it was I was just blown away.

00:41:53.039 --> 00:42:01.440
So there's an energy, uh an actual, you know, we we all are energy, we're made up of energy, and um there is an energy connection between a human and a horse.

00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:09.760
A horse's hearts are about three times bigger than ours, and they actually can sense your they've done scientific studies that a horse can sense your heartbeat.

00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:13.519
And that's why they say Isn't it up to 35 meters, something like that?

00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:15.360
It's it's it's long, yeah.

00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:21.199
Yeah, and um, and then and some horses are you know, their fight or flight kicks in a little bit more.

00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:26.400
Like I've got a little Mustang that was six when he got rounded up, so he spent a lot of time in the wild.

00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:34.079
And um, and he you have to walk up to him intentionally with a certain energy, or he's gonna go, you know, he's gonna go away from you.

00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:35.679
I've another horse that doesn't care.

00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.079
She's she's right there on top of you no matter what.

00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:49.199
But but um that connection and that feeling, you can you can actually feel the energy from the horse and the energy that when you connect with them, it's kind of hard to explain.

00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:53.280
Um, I have a friend, a couple of friends actually that do body work on horses.

00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:58.239
So um you go to the horse, you connect with the horse's heart with your hands.

00:42:58.559 --> 00:42:59.840
Um did you?

00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:00.880
Yeah, so I did that.

00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:11.360
Put one hand on his heart and what they told me, and then one on the speak on the chest, and say, like, give one thing that you've been holding on, like one trauma or something, yeah.

00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:16.639
Give it to the horse, he can handle it, and then the horse will give you something from their heart, right?

00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:22.559
Yeah, and I, you know, I I've always like I said, I'm a pretty logical person, and and I've always been kind of like, ugh, I don't know.

00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:35.920
Um, you know, it seems kind of hocus pocus, but um I I did take a class last summer um on doing body work that is like the first step when you have a horse that has a problem trying to figure out what it is because they can't tell you, right?

00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:41.679
And uh the horse that they gave me um was would not stand for the farrier, wouldn't pick her feet up.

00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:44.559
She was afraid of the farrier, wouldn't have anything to do with it.

00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:52.639
By the time we got done about three hours later, she was picking up all four feet, and you know, but it was yeah, so it's that so now I'm a believer, a huge believer in that.

00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:57.760
I mean, I always knew there was a connection with horses that you know that people could feel.

00:43:57.920 --> 00:43:58.079
Yes.

00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:05.360
Um, but I to see it actually work when you're going through the body motions of clearing, you know, the energy spots in a horse that's in a horse.

00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:06.960
Wow, how do you guys do that?

00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:13.280
Just by uh kind of reiki type, like kind of, but it's it's a physical contact.

00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:23.599
You're actually contacting the horse, you go through their nervous system, you go through their um respiratory system, um, you know, their digestive system, which is a huge part of a horse, right?

00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:27.519
Um so you go through all three of those things and then you go through whole body.

00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:30.719
And the horse will tell you um when something's not right.

00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.519
You know, if they have ulcers, you'll you can watch them or you can feel them flinch.

00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:44.559
And you know, there's a they're very sensitive animals, you know, as much as people are that think that they're just giant dogs, they're they're very sensitive animals.

00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:45.519
Very sensitive.

00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:45.920
Wow.

00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:51.440
Well, just yesterday on our way to the hike, we had to stop and turn around off the highway because there's wild horses here, right?

00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.119
And and we were like, oh my, and Sophia loves horses.

00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:58.960
So we turned around, we went there, and there was a big herd of horses.

00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:03.920
And I I'm not so familiar with horses, but Sophia is so confident in front of them.

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:04.960
And but you know, they're right there.

00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:06.320
And I'm like, well, I don't know, they're wild.

00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:08.079
I don't know how close we can get, you know.

00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:10.159
But she just wanted to get right there and touch them.

00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:11.679
And I was like, Well, I don't know, they're wild.

00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.199
Please don't, you know.

00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:17.679
And uh, there is something that is so healing from them.

00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:23.599
And I think you're probably working on their meridians, just like I explained, you know, our bodies have meridian and there'll be blockages.

00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:27.599
And you the way you can unblock them is through breath or sound healing.

00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:32.719
Or so I think equine therapy should definitely be something everyone should try.00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:37.679


I tried it on the island and the BVIs, and it was just, you know, it was interesting for me.00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:41.199


It was just a big horse, you know, and he's trained for trauma.00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:44.960


That's what the center is for for people that actually veterans.00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:55.440


Uh, that's what Britney Turner, who has the island, she trains veterans that have had um PTSD, and she helps them through their traumas and trains them.00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:04.880


Then, once they've gone through this this training program, then they uh help her find sex traffickers like all over the world.00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:09.119


That's her big calling from God is uh sex trafficking to stop that.00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:11.599


So uh she's really interesting woman.00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:16.239


So that's where she trains them and in their healing for PTSD.00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:16.559


Yeah.00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:18.559


And uh I think that's so fantastic.00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:22.239


That is, it's that's amazing, and it's amazing to see them work together, you know.00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:29.360


Some of the like the Mustang Rescue programs, or um, there's a there's an overflow overabundance of mustangs, right?00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:37.599


Um, and those these are horses that have been in a herd management area, and they round them up and bring them in, and they're untouched.00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:43.039


Um, and part of the Branded Brothers program is um taking these mustangs in.00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:55.039


And they they have a lot of different programs like this, like there's a prison program, and then and that's actually one of the ways I got my mustang was um from uh the trainer rescuing him from one of the BLM holdings and training him.00:46:55.119 --> 00:47:02.800


Uh she spent quite a bit of time with him, and and then I got him because I don't know if I'm I I I would like to train someday, but it's on the list.00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:03.679


That's fantastic.00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:06.320


And now you have your own radio as well.00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:12.400


No, uh, so my boyfriend is a uh radio DJ and and TV person, and so he's started bringing me.00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:17.440


He's like, Well, I want to talk to like we'll be talking about something, and he'll say, Wait, hold that thought.00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:20.400


I don't want to hear what you have to say until you know, let me get a mic.00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:23.519


So and it's just a it's just an entertainment thing.00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:25.199


It's probably a fun outlet, you know.00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:30.960


For me right now, podcasting, you know, I feel like I learn so much every time I have a guest on.00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:45.519


And it just, I for me, every time my husband died, I I got into so curious as to why every time I go back to Wasilla and I look where I was at, where I lived, I was like, wow, how come I didn't fall too?00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.519


Because I could have easily fallen as well.00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:54.000


Yeah, you know, I could have easily, I don't know how many times he'd be like, oh, drink with me, do this with me, here, have this.00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:57.280


And and I'd be like, no, I could have easily fallen.00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:00.159


So I got really curious, why didn't I fall?00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:01.760


And as well.00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:06.320


And that's why I left, I think, within months after you know, my husband died.00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:10.800


So many people, therapists, and don't do anything, don't do anything for at least a year.00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:11.440


Right.00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:18.239


But I knew if I stayed on that 50 acres through another dark winter, I could have fallen.00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:20.880


Yeah, I could have fallen, nobody would have known.00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:23.039


I would have been really isolated, you know.00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:24.079


I had community there.00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:26.880


Yeah, it's so easy to isolate on 50 acres.00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:27.119


Yeah.00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:28.159


Like we we did.00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:28.400


Yeah.00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:28.800


Right.00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:32.960


We lived walking distance from each other, but we had no clue what we were going through.00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:35.199


We even went to the gym together, right?00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:43.280


So it's, I think the message today is so important to know that you don't have to stay in that.00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:52.320


I know for me, I I thought, well, okay, I married the kids and this and that, and and um the community, uh, his family.00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:53.440


I loved his family.00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:56.559


It's like, oh, it's not not just me losing him.00:48:56.719 --> 00:48:56.960


Yeah.00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:00.000


It's like I'm losing the family and everybody else.00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:11.440


But in the same time, you know what made me realize what kind of state I was living in is actually when I had a health scare, and that's how I came first to Arizona because I had to find a good surgeon here.00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:17.599


And and my mom came with me in that week that I was here, I felt so calm.00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:19.119


I felt so calm.00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:27.119


My nervous system was like, oh, had this break from being on eggshells all the time, being so scared.00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:36.400


I'd actually, before my husband would, on the days I'd have off, and before he'd arrive from work, I would have a dinner already, all this thing.00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:39.440


I'd always intentionally have a glass of wine before he arrived.00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:40.480


Isn't that crazy?00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:41.280


Yeah, yeah.00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.000


Yeah, because I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous.00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:45.679


I don't know where I'm gonna get.00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:54.559


And so it's it's just I want to tell anybody living in that state right now, just trust, trust that God's got you.00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:56.400


Pray on it, and doors will open.00:49:56.480 --> 00:50:01.599


I've seen miracles of women leaving, you know, with children, and no money and not knowing.00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:03.119


I said, let's pray together.00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:12.800


There were miracles after miracles from where we hire a lawyer, and you know, I I put a down payment for the lawyer, but after that, the lawyer's like, I'll do it pro bono.00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:15.280


You know, those are the miracles.00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:19.039


I could have never told this person, this will happen, you'll be fine.00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:22.239


I could have never said that, but I said, Well, let's just pray on it.00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:39.199


You know, a lot of people too fear for their own life afterwards, yeah, you know, and I said, pray for protection, pray for if you're going the I truly believe in my heart for going the right way, and you have faith that God will protect, will open these doors.00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:44.239


You would never but you gotta take these doors when they open, yeah, these chances, right?00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:47.679


And it as hard as that is.00:50:48.159 --> 00:51:04.239


I think I think it's hard too for people that don't know how to pray, which is you know, for you and I sounds odd, but um, but I've met a lot of people that um like I don't I don't know about God, I don't know, you know, why would I be in this situation if there was a God.00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:11.519


Um, you know, and there's so much learning that comes with that, and and ultimately you do have to have to have faith.00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:20.239


But I think there's a lot of resources out there too to help women or men that um want to learn about faith and learn how to pray.00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:36.239


But I really think it just starts from, you know, uh uh we meet a lot of people that um uh are convenient, um convenient morality is what I used to call it, but convenient Christians um that don't really know how to pray.00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:38.159


And it's there's no rocket science.00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:46.159


It's a it's I think people are intimidated by it, but just start a conversation, just uh just start talking and he'll answer.00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:47.840


Yeah, yes, exactly.00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:55.679


Ask questions or ask for guidance or protection or anything, just start talking, like you said, you know, and I think that's so important.00:51:55.840 --> 00:52:03.039


Now you say there's some resources, there's there's some in particular that you can guide people through to if they're looking for more information.00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:17.039


You know, it's um it's kind of uh one thing that I recommend to people, like initially, is uh it's a production that I got involved with um when they first started called The Chosen, the the series, it's a mini-series.00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:22.320


Um, and they stick to biblical truth as much as they can.00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:30.480


Um, so like um, you know, my stepkids uh they were struggling a little bit, and I said, I'll give you a hundred dollars, just go watch the series, you know, just see what it does.00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:35.920


And and um uh one of my stepsons just got baptized a week ago or so, I think.00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:37.280


So that was amazing.00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:40.320


Um, any of those, there's so much out there now.00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:47.760


There's um, you know, like if you're a logical person and looking for the science behind the Bible, I mean it all comes down to the Bible, right?00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:50.800


And the Bible is the truth, and the Bible is the source of truth.00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:55.519


So there's a um a movie out there called The Ark in the Darkness that's amazing.00:52:55.760 --> 00:53:01.360


And it talks about how there's science behind everything that's in the Bible, how everything comes back.00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:05.679


So once you once you embrace that, that okay, there's this book that's true.00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:12.320


And um, I think once you embrace that, then logically, you know, you'll start following the steps.00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:26.559


It's just like any books it's like you know, the book that you wrote, or or any books that are out there, once you buy into and understand that it's truth, then you start seeing things differently, then you start, you know, understanding things that might be going on that you don't see.00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:29.199


Um, and that's just start getting curious about it.00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:34.320


Yeah, there's so many resources now, like you said, books out there, people's personal stories, right?00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:40.400


And now Spotify, Apple, YouTube, you know, you can get curious.00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:49.760


And the more you'll find a common thread of people that have um, you know, uh the divine power power, you know, God.00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:54.800


I know a lot of people have a hard time accepting because they've been maybe hurt by the church or this and that, or yeah.00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:58.480


And so I say, give that a chance.00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:01.760


That was man that hurt you, probably, right?00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:05.599


And in in the church or something, but God wouldn't hurt you, right?00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:05.840


Right?00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:07.119


God is love.00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:13.519


So think about that again, maybe embracing that and um and see what happens.00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:14.960


I mean, what do you have to lose?00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:15.920


Yes, exactly.00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:16.880


What do you have to lose?00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:17.679


That's what I love.00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.239


I was just at a genius network conference over three days.00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:23.760


This is the top uh thought leaders of the world.00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:33.679


And the speakers there, they were entrepreneurs, and you'd think they were there to talk about how to make more money, how to, you know, whatever.00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.360


No, you know what they talked about?00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:38.239


They talked about faith, they talk about God, their spirit.00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:39.840


Everything else falls into place.00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:49.679


Yes, and how they had learned from their experience of the grind, the grind, work and work and work and work, and then they burned out, and how they lost everything.00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:54.239


Or, yeah, great, they made the millions, but then they lost a wife, they lost the kids, and all the things.00:54:54.320 --> 00:54:58.400


So they're sharing take more time off.00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:04.480


There was one that talked about uh not fill up your whole calendar actually takes some days off.00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:04.800


Right.00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.519


In fact, one of them said, take a year off if you can.00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:10.000


He's like, Well, most of the people here probably can.00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:18.320


So it was so refreshing to hear that because I think that is um we need to come back into balance.00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:22.559


We've been so far off balance that we need more time with God.00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:23.840


Yeah, we really do.00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:34.800


And uh because I know that I don't watch the news, I don't watch any of that stuff, and that will keep you in that fear state and away from God.00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:36.480


Absolutely, that's what it's intended for.00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:36.960


Yes.00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:46.639


So instead of maybe clicking on that Fox News channel, read the Bible, yeah, spend time in prayer, you know, and and uh I think that's so important.00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:55.440


I don't know if what's a you know, if there's something that I haven't asked or you want to share, is there anything that you think of that in your heart?00:55:55.920 --> 00:56:07.199


I think just you know, my experience with the the people and predominantly women that have reached out to me on the internet when we talk about um narcissistic abuse and whatnot is they just feel so stuck.00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:13.760


And um, and I have one friend that I've been working with for three years now and she's still stuck.00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:21.039


Um and I think just taking a step, if you even if you feel stuck, take a step.00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:32.079


Take a take a step towards this is a boundary that I need to have, that I can't, that I can't move, and then brace yourself for the for the fallout or whatever may happen.00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:37.840


Understand that own the choice that you've made to put that boundary in place, don't waver.00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:43.920


I mean, you know, make sure it's something that you cannot waver on, um, and then and then stick to it.00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:49.280


And that doesn't mean like a deal breaker of, you know, if you call me a name again, I'm leaving, you know.00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:56.960


But if you call me a name again, then there's then then we're gonna have to have a serious conversation about what our future holds, that kind of thing.00:56:57.199 --> 00:57:01.599


Um you know, the the ultimatums I'm not a I'm not a fan of.00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:06.639


So I never uh I was very careful about don't give ultimatums unless you're going to go through with it.00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:09.199


You know, I don't I don't like threats, you know.00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:23.840


I don't think that's healthy in a relationship uh either, uh even though I'm I'm guilty of you know throwing my hands up and then coming back around and going, okay, oh I I think I know two times I actually physically went up to my husband and said, I want a divorce.00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:24.480


Yeah, yeah.00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:25.280


And then I never did.00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:28.639


No, and it's yeah, and it's it's um it's that's not healthy.00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:49.679


But I think, you know, just for for people that are feeling stuck and like, well, you know, that they look at you and you know, you've climbed out of this deep darkness and you're becoming wildly successful, and you have so many people that you're influencing, and and um it maybe seems unattainable um for someone that's still in that darkness.00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:51.679


I mean, would you have thought that you were gonna be where you were?00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:54.000


No, everyone asked me to be thinking about it.00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:59.840


I said no, and then I that's why sometimes I wanted to help you this you can be me, if not more.00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:01.760


Yeah, you know, just keep trusting.00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:04.880


I would have never a lot of people ask, why did you pick Arizona?00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:06.239


I don't know, God caught me yell.00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:08.480


I I here, I didn't know anybody.00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:09.679


But keep trusting.00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:12.320


And that's why yeah, take that step.00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:18.719


That's why I am so such a believer, all the miracles that happen once I stepped into it, you know, without fear.00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:33.599


And I work really hard on a daily basis because don't I'm not giving myself that those fears keep spiraling, you know, but I know how to really pivot and pivot and stay so grounded in my faith and in my spiritual practice.00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:36.000


So then that's what's guiding me and not fear.00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:44.960


Yeah, and and setbacks really are just um how bad do you want it, you know, or or maybe they're God changing your course and you need to go with it.00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:49.599


Um, that's that's another huge thing that you keep stepping in in uncomfortable places, you know.00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:59.199


I mean, I know I it's yeah, speaking in front of a whole bunch of people was not really something I'm really excited about, but that's how I'm gonna reach so many more people, right?00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:01.840


And so I just keep getting guidance.00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:05.519


Okay, if I'm gonna be doing that, I need a public speaker coach, I need to practice more.00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:10.400


And actually, having a podcast gets me to practice speaking more confidently.00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:14.320


Well, they say the number one cause of aging is comfort, right?00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:18.800


So the more comfortable you get, the quicker you're gonna age, the quicker your body's gonna break down.00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:28.800


So that may be another reason why I do the ski juring and the mountain shooting and the things that I do, and you know, moving four tons of hay in a week and that kind of thing, because it's not comfortable.00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:32.559


Um, you know, doing this is a is always a risk.00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:36.719


Um, speaking about something I really haven't spoken about publicly before.00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:42.400


I'm very happy that you are willing because I know when I text you, she's like, let's just grab a coffee.00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:44.320


I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna podcast.00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:48.239


And then I did ask if there was anything you didn't want to talk to.00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:49.039


You're like, no.00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:56.079


And I I think because I think we learned that hiding our truth didn't really benefit us, ourselves, and anyone.00:59:56.159 --> 00:59:59.840


If we can save one person out there, that was.01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:04.960


Living a same similar situation and give them hope of where you're at and where I'm at.01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:05.360


Yeah.01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:07.119


I know this could be them too.01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:07.920


Yeah, absolutely.01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:16.320


You know, it's yeah, it'll take you know, it won't be the next day, but you keep trusting and doing the work, it'll be worth it to live a more fulfilled life.01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:16.960


Absolutely.01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:18.559


Yeah, and we only get one, right?01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:21.280


That's there's no there's no second chances.01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:24.639


And God, again, God didn't design us to to be loved in abuse.01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:29.840


He wants the best for us and and to make achieve our highest purpose.01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:38.159


And um don't always know what that is, don't always know why things happen the way they do, but um but have that trust, but also put some work into it.01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:39.840


And I mean, I know you work hard.01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:40.400


I see it.01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:42.480


Yes, yes, absolutely.01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:44.000


Yes, absolutely.01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:46.480


Well, thank you so much for being on and thank you for having me.01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:52.239


Anyone wants to kind of join kind of the programs that you're part of, I'll put them in a show notes.01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:56.400


But if there's a link or um a website, you can mention it to the audience.01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:56.880


Absolutely.01:00:56.960 --> 01:00:59.440


Thrival is a is a big one near and dear to my heart.01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:04.079


Um, Tara Bell is the president, she's actually my skier and ski drawer as well.01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:07.519


We're a women's team, so um yeah, I will absolutely do that.01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:12.960


And I'm available, I uh a lot of times just like to chat with people um randomly.01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:15.039


I've had I think you had said so too.01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:22.159


You had some people from Alaska reach out, so I had no idea, but also here's my story, you know, and to yeah, and to be able to help.01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:27.039


And my my first thing is never to say leave, get a divorce, you know, get out.01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:28.880


That will never be my first piece of advice.01:01:29.280 --> 01:01:30.639


Because it has to come from them, yes.01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:31.599


They have to be kind of right.01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:37.840


Like I said, put your head on a pillow at night and feel good about what you're doing.01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:43.440


And a lot of the times when they reach out, I I always wonder, well, okay, well, how God, how can I play a role?01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:44.880


A lot of times just to listen.01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:45.280


Right.01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:45.840


Right.01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:47.199


So they're not feeling alone.01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:48.239


Yeah, absolutely.01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:48.639


Yeah.01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:49.840


Well, thank you so much.01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:51.599


It was so great to have you on.01:01:51.840 --> 01:02:05.760


And uh, if you guys like the show, if if you know somebody that might be in abuse, please share this podcast to them because that could maybe plant that seed that they need for that first step out.