Pipeman Radio talks with THE JUDGE THE JUROR About HELICONIAN OPTIVISOR

0:04 Hey, you have done to censure. I'm for wow for you you oh. Your how you tell your lunch out? Saw you last shot a shy?

0:55 This is the pipe Man here on the Adventures pipe Man W four C Y Radio, and I'm here with the next guest that the has some badass music that kind of kind of combines two of my personalities. Really yeah, and you're gonna find out about why. So let's welcome David from the Judge the juror. Hello, folks, where'd the executioner go? We decided early on to drop them? So now, oh yeah, I love it though. So the reason I said that is because when I when I saw what they call your genre, okay, and I hate genres because it just lumps artists into something.

1:42 And it's like I almost do this thing when I go on tour and do interviews at festivals, like I have bands, tell me what would your genre be? Because it's pretty ridiculous nowadays, like the genres are so microscopic that one band could fit into it. It becomes like a funny but. Yours I read as psychedelic, progressive tech. Death nailed it. And you know, I'm somebody that is both a metal head, well, a metal head, a punk and hippie like dig psychedelic music.

2:24 I dig metal, I dig punk, I dig all kinds of metal. I dig good musicianship. So your genre there just fits everything. That'll end. I'm glad to hear that. It's it's kind of like if Possessed in the Grateful Dead had a baby. Oh now that's that's a pretty high high. So thank you, right, you know, because I have somebody like back in the eighties. Yeah, ago on like Friday night to go see a Slayer show and on Saturday go to a Dead show. Hell yeah, love that, you know.

3:04 Yeah, it's like fuck the gatekeeper shit too. Music is music. If you like music, you like music. I'm more of a metal head than most anybody there is. It doesn't mean I don't like other music. I could not agree more. We're very much like that. Like while we play in you know, kind of the tech death space with that, we're very influenced by a lot of other music that isn't metal, you know self, especially with like the kind of electronic psychedelic side like our our lead guitarists favorite band in the world is Dance Gavin Dance. Now I'm kind of like, yeah, like an emo alternative, you know, so very outside of what we do, but that influence has definitely come into the music as well. And I agree. I think like we're blessed in the metal genre also that you can make so many things metal, you know, yeah, it's it just works so well. So it's just like what can we just kind of throw together? And I love how you said about the genretization of metal because you hit it exactly on the head. So side deaf tech progue is a term that we made up nice and you hit it on the head exactly. Because originally the idea was like all this genretization, there's so much of it, right, and you go to a metal head man, you're like, oh you like that band? I also like death metal, and they're like, they're black and grind. So we thought it like, we should have a genre that's super hyper

4:37 specific to help you. But but then it's also kind of like a tongue in cheek zab at that exact thing, you know. So I'm glad that you pick that up. I love it well. You know, what you just said reminds me because you know, I come from the days of the eighties or the gatekeeper bullshit. And I remember I was at a show. It was Venom, Slayer. And Exodus, oh sh. And Kronos got into a fistfight with Tom. Because he's like, you guys aren't black metal. We're black metal. It's like, come on, dude, Like, and in twenty twenty five, Venom wouldn't even be considered black metal.

5:18 It's it's funny. I thought it was so. Like evil and dark and heavy and fast back then, and now I listen to him, I'm like, man, it sounds kind of poppy to me. It's amazing how things evolve right. Right totally, you know. And then, like I mentioned Possessed before, arguably the first death metal band ever, and I can say that they still stand up to most death metal today. Oh, I would agree too. I'm a big fan of a lot of the old school stuff too, and they're up there for me as. Well, totally. And you know, let's talk about the progressive part.

5:59 To me, Rush has some metal songs, a lot of metal songs before they put the synth in. It holy toly agree. Yeah, Like I love Rush like to me, twenty one to twelve is one of the most metal fucking songs ever to me, like I remember lasting it through my guitar, ample bar and freaking headbanging to to Temples of Searings and shit. Hell yeah. I also love Rush though, and I agree it does have a more metal tinge to it than I think people realize, because. Most people don't know nowadays, don't know the old Rush like they know post Moving Pictures, and I'm not a big post Moving Pictures person.

6:47 Like, yes, there was quite a. Away from them. You know, they're great artists, but like I like before that, like I love the first album, I love Carressive Steel, I love Permanent Waves and you know, yeah, like Moving Pictures. Everybody that you know is the the popular Rush fan. No, but I love all the shit before Moving Pictures man, Hell yeah. And you're Canadian, so like you would get to Canada if you didn't like Rush. Well exactly, we can't claim to be any sort of prog band and say we don't like Rush, so you would never catch me doing that. Don't worry.

7:31 There you go, there you go, So tell me about I love the story of what you're doing, because I think you can even add to that genre that you made up and call yourselves like power psychedelic, progressive tech death. You got that whole concept thing going on, and that's. Quote unquote the power metal thing. Yeah, but I think concepts are great because listen to a song an album. To me, it's no different than a book and a chapter. Couldn't agree more with that either. Yeah, you're you're telling people something, whether you're thinking about it conceptually or just as a one off piece, right, You're you're conveying something to people through what you're doing musically. So absolutely so.

8:25 I love how you have this whole thing of you already have everything set up. It's almost like the the the chapters are set up between these EPs that you're putting out, and so tell us a little bit about the story of how they're all connected and why this one goes now, this one goes then, and so forth for sure. So so the three EPs are based around actually a quote. The gentleman's name is, I believe it's Edward Oh Moro. I hope I didn't get that wrong. Edward Oh, I think Moro. I'll have to confirm that. I should know it off the top of my head. I know that anyway, he was quoted as saying it was in a discussion where they were kind of philosophizing about, you know, the modern state of us as humans and why we're kind of feeling like things around us sort of are coming to this weird crux that's a little bit scary, and he he chalked it up to there's a reason that humanity is sort of heading down this path, and he labeled it as three different, three different pieces of the human puzzle that we deal with right now that really don't kind of drive together when you think about it.

9:43 And so what those are and the names of the EPs are going to be primitive minds. We have the basically the same brain we've had since we've you know, stepped out of caves. We have these medieval institutions the second EP name, so all these instanttions around us that still operate in these old ways that don't really serve us too well. And then the third one, the third EP, will be called godlike technology. Now we have these bones and everything in our pocket, and we have this level of technology that's unlike anything we've ever seen. Is a race and these three things kind of coming together. His theory is that this is causing a lot of human suffering right now. In our world, and I very much agree, I very relate to that. So that's kind of what we're trying to do with these EPs is so Primitive Minds is going to be this first one. That's what Heliconian Optiviser is going to be from, So it's going to be sort of a dive into some of our human primitive emotions and things like that that kind of can betray us in our modern world. Next, in the We're thinking Early you know, twenty twenty six, we'll be looking at medieval institutions and same kind of thing, will dive further into some of these ideas about what we think these institutions are, how we feel like they're negatively impacting it. And then eventually we'll do the godlike technology section as well, and we're kind of planning to encapsulate that whole idea, hopefully between all three of these songs

11:16 and sorry, pardon me, all three of these EPs, and be able to kind of put them together in a sort of vision of that statement. So that's pretty cool. It's like it's kind of like when you have, you know, books and then the follow up book and then the follow up book, and you know, when you said the technology. Something really hit home for me because I am a techie, always have been. But I also know, like I'm a gen xer. I built this stupid shit we use now like right, and and just like you see in the movies, I'm kind of sorry that we did. You know. It's like I told my daughter one day. I was on the phone with my youngest daughter and I was like, you know, some days I just want to drive down the road and throw my laptop, my phone, and my iPad out the window and keep driving.

12:11 She goes dead, Who are you kidding? You're just as addicted as everybody else. I'm like, yeah, you're right, except I lived in time when we didn't have any of it, and it was a better time, you know. I remember when I was learning programming languages to build all this technology, and the talk was always how it's going to make our life so much easier and blah blah blah blah blah bullshit. Because I'm here now in it. Life ain't easier. It's more stressful. This is why everybody has stress anxiety, because there is no off switch gone. It's like, just you know, like you can.

12:53 I have clients that text me at three am, Like what happened to the day is when a business is and you couldn't get a hold of them at three am, you know, and it's like people just assume. Another thing really bugs me is people, especially the people that are not tech oriented, they assume that because we have this technology, you have to use it all and use it all at once, like zoom. I can't tell you how many times I've had appointments with somebody that would take like a thirty second phone call and they're like. Okay, well let me send you a zoom link. I'm like, it would take you longer to send the zoom link than to have the phone call just become to the phone call me okay, And then you know, there's so many things like that. It's like I have clients that will text me to let me know that they just emailed me, and then they'll Facebook message me to tell me that they text me that they emailed me.

13:52 And I'm just like, listen, I use all the technology, I only need one. Okay, if you send me an email, I'll get a notification that email. I don't need a text to tell me you sent me an email. Like, what is the freaking point of that. Yeah, I agreed. I think that's the destruction in the world right there, we're talking, we talk about apocalypse. I think that's the pop apocalypse. We're like, all I look outside the window of my studio and I see people walking around on their phones like we're in the zombie apocalypse. Like I've literally watched somebody walk right into a cement pole because they're too busy on their phone.

14:32 It's so true. We're so addicted to it, right And and I mean this circles back with this whole idea of these these three concepts together, right, This this technology and stuff with especially you know, the social media stuff is what a lot of people are addicted to their phones about. And these institutions we're kind of talking about, you know, they're they're setting these up to hit your primitive brain. They know exactly what they're doing doing this. They know that that stimulus is something in our brain that's still from our you know, days of being more animalistic and not a society like we are now, and they know how to hit it. And so that's exactly that's why I think again, these all tie together, right, It's it's yeah, it's all these combinations of what they're doing and nefarious purposes behind it. Even the ones that don't have necessarily a nefarious intent become nefarious, is what it's seeming like, you know. So it's just it's a very it's a bizarre time, you know. And like I'm an I'm an older millennial, right, I was born in eighty seven, so I at least too kind of had a little bit of the the gift of mostly technology free childhood. A lot of people my age kind of that was us. It was more when we were in like I remember kind of first really being on like a computer doing anything close what we do now MSN Messenger, like when I was in junior high, maybe maybe mid junior high, you know, so I still got to have

16:04 that kind of childhood experience where we didn't have that. And I think about I see like kids today with it, and I can't even imagine what being a kid must be like in this day and age with with it's crazy, like totally just wild. Yeah, And you know, to your point, like my two older kids, they're born eighty five, eighty six, Oh yeah, okay, and I remember the day this happened. But so we had cell phones, but as a parent, you didn't limb have it all the time. They couldn't bring it to school, or they didn't have one. Like my kids were going to school and no, you can't have a cell phone. No. Yeah, like they didn't even have one. And then one day I remember so clearly dropping them off at school and it was like, out of nowhere, every kid cell phone.

17:01 And now I'm like, oh, fuck, now I gotta buy my kids a cell phone because they can't be the only ones in school without a cell phone. Right, And that's part of it too. Right, you know, it's yeah, you got the pressure. And speaking of social media, same thing, Like social media is not social, it's anti social, attacking, bullying, everything that was the worst things about my childhood, it's now expanded because of social media. Like I can't even imagine what these kids have to go through. Because I had bullies that waited for me when I was walking home from school, I didn't have cyber bullies.

17:42 That's like a whole nother realm right there. Yeah, it's and it's unbelievable how the depths people will go on online to do that kind of stuff. It's pretty upsetting. Yeah, I even okay, so like even now, the the idea of a president of the United States of America using social media to take jabs at people just blows my mind. It just blows my mind. I don't care who the president is, anybody that would do just that you could actually do. I don't even think they should be able to use social media for stuff like that in a sense that maybe that's old me, maybe that's me be an old fashioned, but like, come on, man, it's like you're bullying world leaders with your ex account.

18:32 Yeah, and that part that we don't need, right It's like it'd be one thing if we as a species could be responsible with some of these things. But I don't think that, unfortunately, coming anytime soon. And so you know, yeah, I mean, what's next. Like listen, in the eighties, I was like, the machines are going to take over. Everything I remember from the seventies and the eighties that was sci fi is now real life or outdated. Like the idea of a flip phone is now outdated. And I remember watching Star Trek and going whoa, yeah, what it is or what we're doing right now is also from Star Trek. You know, it's like it's real life and you thought it was something that could never happen, you know. And then now you take movies like I Robot or other movies like that, and we're living that now with the whole AI thing, you know. Oh yeah, and here's one.

19:33 How about this. I don't know if you ever thought of this, but I mean, have you ever seen the movie Demolition Man? Oh? I you know what's funny is I literally watched it two three days ago. Okay, tell me that's not COVID. Oh you know what I I literally kind of had that same thought of like, yeah, this kind of could have definitely could have been what society became, you know, right, it's quite wild. Think about no exchange, bodily fluids and like the idea of having sex the real way of put you know, and an electrog and I think there's a lot of times I do think that we are just being programmed for all this, you know, everything that happens, Like listen, I also gotta laugh at with the COVID thing. You know that people were spreading this saying, oh no, I'm not gonna get the shot because it's you know, they're going to inject the five G chip.

20:41 But they're posting this on Facebook, and I would tell these. People, I'm like, dude, you are using a five G phone to post this. They don't need. To chip you. You are chipping yourself literally right right. It's like people don't some people don't get it. It's like even with the AI thing, Okay, so AI is really popular now, but guess who's training the AI? We are being being these companies. Have no costs involved in the research and development because we're it for free. Exactly. Yeah, right, it's it tested on the public. Is kind of what it feels like, right, no matter what the consequences of that are, socially or otherwise. And that's a scary. It is a scary kind of world to live in when you just see it so blatantly. You know, I think we all kind of know what you know, corporate and larger scale interests think about uh, the average person.

21:51 But I feel like with some of this tech stuff, it's it's even more blatant than before. You know, you are our product. We have you, and we're gonna use you as said product. And that's it's it's a scary world to live in. Well, here's the problem. There's two problems. One is I tell this people all the time. Why do you think they give us this stuff for free like you think because right it isn't some altruistic thing. No, that's number one. Number two okay, so hmm. You take the smartest minds in the world. They're creating this technology. They can do things that you can't even imagine they can do. It's like, I remember you talk about, you know, my son in the beginning of the internet, you know, and he was on his computer, he was doing stuff. I'm like, listen, you need to be careful because people can get into your computer and steal your shit. He's like, you know, and typical of your generation and further general rations. You know, stuff just works. They don't realize like like that, yeah, actual programming behind this that makes it work. It doesn't just work. So I said to him, I'm like, hey, I said. He said to me, ah, come on, you know they get to oh really. And I called up a friend of mine and I'm like, hey, do me a favor. Can you go on my son's computer right

23:24 now and start deleting files? And then all of a sudden, popping up deleted file, deleted. My son's asking me what's going on? Oh that thing you told me can't be done. It's being done right now. You just let me know when you want it to stop. That's amazing, right, you know that's. Really the way to teach your kids because like. Yeah, I mean, they don't get sometimes experience, right, You got to you gotta see that it's going to happen, because it's easy to be like, well, maybe it does, but not to me or or no. And then when you're. Old, you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah.

24:05 I love it when you're like in your twenties and your kids call you old. That's that's something, right, It's it's why. But what's even wilder is like, Okay, I have grandkids now, and like they can they could do stuff their parents can't do on technology for. Sure, and with a question. And they have that same attitude and I kind of laugh, like they love me, and that's because I'm like the cool grandpa that brings them to mosh pits and and teaches them how to use this technology and stuff. And they're like and their parents are like, yeah, they're too old.

24:46 My kids are too old for my grandkids. That's wild. It's just a it's a trip, man, And you know there's good and bad, like they're definitely is than bad totally. It's made my life easier. I think it's made it where I could do something like this instead of having to do an interview where you come into the studio or what have you. Yeah, that made it better. But the fact that you know, you see kids nowadays more and more have been mental illness, having anxiety, having panic attacks. Stress. Man, they got plenty of years for that crap.

25:28 That's totally it, right. It's it's like we, yes, we definitely get some conveniences, some things that do make our lives easier from this stuff. But at some point where where it starts to come down to me is like at some point we kind of have to ask ourselves as a society like okay, sure, but what are we willing to give up for this? Yeah? And I don't think that's always part of the conversation. It's always oh, what's coming and what's coming. It's like, but where we're going with this, something else is going to have to give. It just can't become this and and everything stay the same, you know, So it's like, what are we willing to sacrifice here? And what's starting to get sacrificed, is like what scares me about people, you know, and where we're going.

26:11 I think humanity is getting sacrificed because. This is exactly it, our humanity. That's exactly the perfect word for it, right, And I don't think we all necessarily can see it. You know, we don't see it because it's like anything else in life, when you're in the thick of it, you don't really know. It isn't until you look bad. And that's why when you're a kid and then you become a parent, you start to understand your parents, you know type of thing. And now I understand my dad in the respect of, you know, my forty year old son saying shit to me. I'm like, oh, now I get it. Now, I get how I was an idiot with my dad. And they think they all think, like, you don't understand things, you haven't lived their life for whatever.

27:01 And I think of this, okay, with what we're talking about. People in my grandparents' generation were like, oh, life was better when we churned our own butter, when we did stuff like that, And You're like, you're insane. Why would I want to churn my own butter when I could go to a star buy and now all the sickness that we have physical and mental from all the garbage that we consume in our body, and really we have more stress doing it this so called easy way with food then the old times when it was very simple times, Hey, farm your farmland, churn your butter.

27:46 But yeah, there was. Family stuff going on. There was also the passing of generations. You know. More and more nowadays, less kids are getting involved in a family business, you know, yeah, and less kids are having that you know, family mentality or care. You know. We take these social media things and use them to become antisocial, you know. Yeah, it's amazing how the things. You know, something is set up to be something and then it becomes the antithesis of what it was meant to be. That's it seems to be a common thread with us as people sometimes too.

28:30 Yeah, look at TikTok Okay. During COVID, TikTok was the fun app. Everybody was getting off of Facebook as all emotion and getting on TikTok because it was just fun. And now TikTok is exactly what people ran away from, like the same negativity. And that's the thing all this technology has created way more negativity, not way more positivity. Yeah, And I sometimes think that that's the right. Like, you know, you're talking about the food analogy about how you know, we have it easier, but then now with getting food, but then you've traded all this stuff. I think that's the perfect analogy for this too. Right, It's like you are you are when we get when things get easier, maybe it's easier for us in terms of our existence and stuff, but I think as things get easier, we're having a harder time, you know, keeping our brains in a place that's reasonable. I think because things are so easy, then it's like, well, you know, I don't have to worry about my food, and I don't have to worry if I'm going to get clean water, if I have this and that I should go bitch at somebody on the internet, right, And yeah, I think that's part of it. Like we're very you know, we're very fortunate in like our in society here, we we have a lot, you know. And I think that exactly, Yeah, that thing when it's this internet, So it's what we were saying about the socialness of it, right, it's making

30:02 it so easy to be social via these things. That's it's flipped into this anti social thing without kind of right before our eyes, right, yeah, and yeah, it's very fascinating how as we progress as a society and things do get easier, like you said, we find these new ways to be kind of self destructive is what it feels like, totally. And that's where music, to me, is one of the most important things out there, because music is the best therapy there is and it's the one that thing that binds us together, especially in the metal community. Okay, we're one big family. There are no outsiders, there's no hate, there's none of that crap, and you get to escape.

30:47 That's why sometimes I just wish some of these people would just go experience a live show instead of filming the whole thing, Like come over. Watch it on YouTube. You're never even gonna watch it, like these people that feel never even watch it, Like, right, so you missed the whole show, the whole experience. For what there's time since media, like I have to do stuff like that. It's funny, like I'll take a picture and then I'll pull my camera down. I'm like, man, it looks so much cooler this way without the camera. Right, I always think that too. Anytime I like, you know, take a picture of one of our shows and stuff, I'm like the picture of Like, the picture looks cool, but I remember the moment, and that moment was way more fun than what this picture captures.

31:30 You know. It's a nice reminder of it, but it doesn't It's it's not the same as a real spirit attack tile right in front of you. You're there getting blasted by the speaker and the singer sweat hits you in the face. It's just never going to be the same thing, right, I. Haven't think about Moshpitz. Okay. Back in the eighties, I'd go into Mashpitz, didn't worry about nothing. Now when I go into Moshpitz, it's like here, hold my phone, here hold this, you know, like and it's like, man, it's kind of a pain in the ass to go into marshpit now because I got all this shit I gotta worry about where Then it was just just jump in and not even think about it and go for it anything. You didn't break anything and lose anything, you know, you just had fun in the moment.

32:17 Yeah, And you know, one thing that's nice with a lot of the shows we've been playing, I've definitely noticed there's way more uptic I see of kids, younger people, even adults and stuff. Depending on the shows, I'm noticing a lot more people getting in there and like doing their mosh thing and looking out for each other, but like having a good time, and I have kind of It's funny, I thought I felt the same kind of things for a long time, Like I go to these shows and no one's really that into it, or like they are, but they're not into like moving around and yeah, over the last couple of years, like especially around like Alberta here where we're from, and like we've been into Saskatchewan a little bit in BC, noticing way more people are coming out to these shows and getting right in there, and I like, I'm saying, I love to see it, Like that's music's expression at the end of the day, and getting out into the mosh pit and just flailing doing what you gotta do and with all the homies who are there to do the same thing. I mean, that's it's one of the most raw, purest forms of expression.

33:23 I think you can get out there and it's super valuable, and I think there are people who are thankfully who are coming around and being like, no, I do want that real experience at this show. I'm not going to sit on my phone. I'm going to be mashing. I'm going to be interacting with the band and other people. And it's nice to see that that is at least starting to happen. Hopefully we'll continue. What I think is cool. Okay, So back in my gatekeeper days, okay, where it's like you could only mash this bla lah bullshit, mashing is some of the best therapy too. Like people think you go in people. Now, no, you don't hurt main people in the out the outside world, you know, like get all your ship out in the pit and then you don't want to kick somebody's ass in the real world totally. So like I've been to like a Whiz Khalifa show and there were mash bits, and if you caught me in my early days, I'd be like, now that's stupid. And now I'm like, now that's freaking cool, and you know what, go for it.

34:27 You know. Genre youan mash, Yeah, freaking. Mash feel the music out and express yourself. Oh yeah, that's the. Move and that's what we need nowadays. That is our escape from all the bull crap in the world, especially music like yours. Like that's why I love about the psychedelic progressive part of the psychedelic progressive tech death because the psychedelic progressive part is the one that makes your drift away from everything. You know. I completely agree, you know, you know space, yes, for sure, and I mean that I'm I'm glad that it comes off that way. You know, like that's definitely where my mind sort of goes to too when working, especially in that psychedelic progressive space. You know, it's trying to trying to find something like especially for me with doing the synth and stuff like that, I really like stuff like sound and sound textures stuff to kind of like tickle my brain, you know. I want that little bit of like ooh ooh. So I'm glad that comes through because that's definitely kind of what we're trying to go for, something that kind of grabs you a little bit more and gives you a little bit extra to chew on.

35:47 You know. Well, it's kind of like, okay, so you take Dark Side of the Moon. Nobody's gonna just listen to a couple of minutes of Dark side of the Moon. They're gonna let's say, dark side of Boon and they're gonna experience it and they're gonna go off into the never never Land. Yes, right, exactly. Yeah. I find that a lot with metal nowadays is there's a lot of the very specific genres that they use its formula and this is the way it needs to be, And I'm like, no, the way it needs to be is like I remember some of my favorite metal songs were like, holy shit, where did that come from? Like, all of a sudden in the miller's song, something happens and you're like, I didn't expect that at all.

36:33 Or you go back to a lot. Of early metal where the intros would fool you like fast as a Shark and battery and like you're like, what the fuck is this and then all of a sudden you're like whoa you know, and it catches you by surprise. I don't think we have that much anymore. Like people are in this track track track mentality. They don't give that ten seconds to get into that. I could not agree more. And you know, for that's that's a really big thing too, like working in in that space that we do of of sort of you know, the technical death metal. There's a lot of exactly what you were just talking about out there in that space.

37:14 There's a lot of talented people and like everything in it and totally but there's a lot of like I feel like the tech death and death coore space right now are kind of like this is what they are and I need to now do this. Yeah, and it's sort of like, uh, what the hell is happening here? Can we do something unique? And so we've kind of part in making that, you know, fake genre is part of being like what are the things that influence us and what can we draw from? And then how can we take anything outside of that and make it feel more metal? Right now? Even take tech as a word in and of itself, to me, it has two meanings. What meaning is you're a really good freaking musician, Like you're technically a great musician.

38:06 It also tells me you're taking yourself way too seriously because some of the best bands in the world screwedle true. True, I completely agree with that too. You cannot in that space of like everything is I'm creating, you know, I'm creating this art and it's oh, like, yeah, you are and it's art and that's great and where but we also are are doing music and music's about good times and expression and feeling and feeling it. You know, we don't have to get into this up tidy space about it. Well, think about too, some of the most talent and most not talented but most well known musicians and well known bands were not the most talented necessarily exactly, I mean especially technically. Yes, one of my favorite bands, their drummer gets a lot of shit from every other MU musician on the face of the earth that he's like the worst drummer ever, but they're still the biggest band in the world. Like come on, that's kinda tell you so.

39:18 Or look at yeah, like Ozzie was all heart, you know, that's what made the difference. And you just hit it right on the on the head for me, because this is something we talk about as a band too, and I think why why we have been able to make some more kind of unique sounding stuff and we're like I always try and push the guys in myself to just be like, be unapologetically authentic to who you are, because there you said it right, Like you can get these musicians who maybe they're not on paper the greatest musician you've ever heard, but they their authentic them comes through their instrument or their voice or whatever it is, and people go instantly, I am on board with this. It could be the most you know, on paper, worst singer, let's say, ever, but you know, if they if they hit that doleful authentic and they bring it out in a way that makes people feel that that's that's it, you know, And for us, like being in a you know, technical death metal band, that's kind of the the balance we're trying to go for.

40:36 It's like, you know, we do want to write stuff that has musicality to it and be able to use that knowledge, but we also want it to feel like it's something that comes from us and wasn't just the like, oh I could switch this scale from mix alodianto blah blah blah blah ooh and people will be like yay. You know, like sometimes you hope, like music nerd people pick up that kind of stuff right of course, Like, but at the end of the day, it's like, I just want something that feels authentically like us and represents who we are to come out of us, because then the people who are going to resonate with it. Are the people you want to resonate with it, because. You're not going to please everybody in anything exactly, So the first person you need to please is yourself and then your tribe will follow.

41:24 That is exactly, yes, one hundred percent. I'm a very firm believer of that. Like, and you know, circling back to what we were saying about, you know, things nowadays the easy way, I also kind of feel like, you know, we we could just shift into like a death core tech death band, and maybe it would be easier for more people to listen to us, maybe easier to play more shows, go on the road, But would we feel really good about it? Not really exactly. Yeah, look at musicians in time that really they weren't really happy with it, you know, And I think that's the saddest thing, because if you're not having fun being a musician, you're in the wrong industry because there ain't nothing else fun about it than that part, you know.

42:17 Exactly. We're blessed in this industry that we get to do something that has that air of fun and joy in it, too, right, And yeah, we can't lose that because we're so lucky to have that as musicians and people in the music industry, like, not a lot of people get that with what they're doing, you know, and it's I think it's really important to stop and just be like, man, this is so cool. I'm so lucky to be doing this. It's amazing that people like this song or came to this show, and like, you know, you got to take those moments to stop and be like, wow, this is fun and that's a good thing. Well, even like when Rush changed course, a lot of people gave them crap, but at the end of in every interview I've ever seen or anything where they're talking about they just did what they wanted to do exactly, And to me, I'm the most.

43:11 Respect for that totally. Because why not If you don't do what you want to do, don't be a musician. That's what it's about. I remember I was playing guitar. I tell his story because it's funny, you know. I was playing guitar as a teenager, and my dad's like. You should give that up, you suck. But he didn't know what I was doing. I was bored to death with the scales bullshit, So I just wanted to find out what sounds I could make out of the guitar, Like I wasn't trying to play something. I was trying to experiment to see what I can make happen. And that's how you become iconic.

43:51 Like you take somebody like Tony Iomi. You know, he created a whole genre by experimenting over something bad that happened to him and. Switching gears exactly right. Yeah, the I think the experimentation thing is so important to not being afraid to just kind of try something out and throw some ideas at the wall and some of them, like you know, some of them aren't going to stick, but it's just the trying to throw them out there, you know. Like again, the playing it safe is is the easy way. Yeah, sometimes it's more than it. It pays off better to take a challenge, I think.

44:33 And I think too, the whole Psychicaelic progressive part there is all experimentation. I view both those ronros as experimentation, like that's just there, like you're just creating this musical journey and a lot of times you don't even know where it's taking you as the musician. The song the post, oh. Okay, I gotta do this at this time and this at this time. And and it's so much more rewarding and exciting as a musician. I feel too to be able to do that, And like you said, even when you're on like that journey that you don't even totally know, Like, that's a very common thing when I sit down to like write a lot of our synth and stuff. You know, sometimes maybe I have an idea of something, but I always try to do that. I try to sit down an experiment and just see what kind of comes out, because you might all of a sudden hit something you're like, wow, I never thought I should. I mean, there's there's going to be a song on our EP on Primitive Minds that has this breakdown part with this one of my favorite synth parts on it, and it was a total saying exact thing. I'm sitting there kind of experimenting. I had these ideas, and I'm like, this is not kind of clicking where I want, you know, And I just sort of sat back and then this idea sort of hit me. I don't want to give away too much because the song's going to come out so people get to hear this, but this sort of idea hit me.

46:03 And I went, that would be really weird if I could make this work. So I, you know, same thing, experiment around with it a little bit, and I remember sending it to the guys so nervously, right, I'm like, okay, here's a bit of a swing. Tell me what you guys think, honestly, right, And our guitar player, Scottie, all he messaged back was oh my god, I got chills, and that right there just went Okay, Yes, I have to lean into doing the stuff that's more out there and letting it happen, because that's where the money parts are going to come from, right, Just that letting something inside you come out that you don't necessarily know is there, and then all of a sudden go, whoa, that's it.

46:47 It's it's beautiful. That's one of my favorite parts about writing. So that's where I think Sid Barrett was a genius because he just was like putting shit into songs. That yeah, no way would put into songs. It was like, and they just work, and just work so nicely. You know. That's always so amazing to me totally. So tell everybody how they can connect to you guys on socials and how they can get a new EPs when they drop and check out this new song that you didn't give them the intel on. Absolutely So the new song is entitled Heliconian Oup Devisor. It is going to be from our Primitive Minds EP, which you can expect this fall. We'll have a data announcement coming soon. So if you'd like to follow us, you know we're on the usual suspects. You can get us on Instagram at the Judge the Juror Official, Facebook at the Judge the Juror YouTube dot com, slash at the Judge the Juror Official. We also have a website which is just the Judge the jur dot com. It'll direct you to all our stuff there any other ones I'm missing? Oh, band camp, you can find us on there.

47:55 If you'd like to purchase the new track, it's on there on band camp. What is it the Judge the jur dot bamcamp dot com. I believe? And yeah about how about MySpace? You know what? We should probably get back on my space. Someone once told me, actually that we said. Someone told me one time that the type of metal we do sounds like the MySpace era of metal and looking at them being like that makes sense because I basically grew up listening to metal on MySpace. So yeah, there you go, there you go. How fi you would it be if like music like bands start bringing back my space? We should do it. I think you're onto something here. I'm gonna go maybe go do some research on it tonight.

48:36 Maybe I see if I can make them a sweet deal or something. Right, that would be so cool. But what's even cooler is your music. So everybody's got to check you out, and uh, it's definitely badass. And if you need to escape the world, this is the music to do it with. That's where we're hoping to provide people with a little reflection and a little escape all in one and some joy. So thank you so much. Thank you to everybody who goes and listens to it and has. So far, we've been getting a lot of really good response, so thank you all so much. Well, thank you for giving us great music, and thanks for being on the Adventures of pipe Man. Oh I'm more than happy to be here. Pipe Man.

49:17 Thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure of meeting here, and thanks for taking the time yourself. So hopefully we'll get to do it again. Absolutely, I'm looking forward to it. Likewise, my friend, take care. Thank you so much, Thank you for listening to the adventures of pipe Man. I'm w for CUI Radio.