Is a supported tiered pricing model the right option for your coaching business?

Welcome to Live With The Pricing Lady.

I'm Janene, your hostess.

This show is all about helping you build a sustainably profitable

business while making an unbelievable impact on your world.

Learn from my 20 years of experience and from my guests as we discuss their pricing

challenges, failures, and successes.

Pricing is a way of being or behaving in your business.

My mission is to help you confidently charge for the value you deliver.

Pricing is either hurting or helping your business.

Let's make sure it's helping you reach your dreams.

Hello everyone, welcome, and also welcome to today's guest, Avery Thatcher.

Hi Avery.

Hello, I'm so excited to be here.

I'm really happy to have you here today.

I'm excited about our conversation.

So, Avery, why don't we start with a few questions.

And the first one is, where are you joining us from today?

I am joining you from Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

And it's still winter here, but I'm loving it.

We were just talking about the weather before we got on

the, got on the call here.

And, uh, so winter is,

how cold is it there now?

Well, today is a warmer day cause we get things that are called Chinook.

So like warm gusts of weather coming off the mountains.

Um, but it's supposed to snow another 20 to 30 centimeters in a couple of days.

So.

Oh, wow.

Amazing.

Beautiful.

Yeah, I was just sharing with Avery that we're expecting like 27 degrees

over the weekend, Celsius that is.

So it's going to get quite warm for a couple days over here.

Cool.

Excellent.

Well, thank you for joining us and getting up bright and early this morning.

Avery, what would you describe as your superpower?

My superpower is to be able to see to the heart of a situation.

So someone can say, Oh, I've got this and this and this and this on my plate.

I'll be like, How about this?

And they're like, Oh yeah, that's what I need to talk about.

So yeah, I feel like that's my superpower.

That's an excellent superpower to have.

Yeah.

I mean, especially in this day and age when we try to

do, often try to do too much.

Um, it's, it's a real.

asset to be able to see through that fray and get to the heart of the problem.

Super.

What's one interesting thing that most people don't know about you

that you'd like to share with us?

So one of the things that I think surprised a lot of people is

that I actually changed my first name a couple years ago, because

I did not feel like Heather.

And so much had changed in my life, literally overnight, and I felt like

I needed to grieve her and let her go.

So I became Avery.

And I felt at home in my body again.

It was totally worth it.

Okay.

That's really interesting.

Maybe we'll hear more about that in the intro as well, because

it's tied to the business day.

Okay.

Actually, that's really cool.

So why don't we get into this?

And I'm curious about what inspired you to start your business and how did

you, how'd you go about doing that?

Yeah, sure.

So I was working as a registered nurse in various intensive

care units across Canada.

And I noticed really early on that the number one reason why adults

found themselves in the ICU were because of illnesses and diseases that

could be linked to chronic stress.

So in 2015, I started building my business talking about stress management.

And I was talking about all of those things that have tons of research

behind them, the mindfulness, the yoga, the journaling, um, Uh, Breathwork.

All of the things that had a lot of benefit for stress.

And then in 2018, I experienced a very epic burnout that has left me with

a chronic illness and a disability.

And I was so frustrated because I felt like I was doing everything

"right", but I still burnt out.

So then I went back into the research because I'm a super nerd and just loved

everything which I was reading and I found the missing pieces of the puzzle.

So now instead of just focusing on stress, we focus on burnout.

And it's really interesting because a lot of people think that burnout is

a stress management issue, but it's actually an energy management issue.

So when we look at it through that lens, it changes everything.

So yeah, that's kind of my journey of where I came from and how I got here.

Oh wow, that's fascinating.

So when you, when you made that shift from being a nurse to

starting your own business, what was that transition like for you?

It was rough.

The learning curve was like, because I would show up at my patient's

bedside and they were there.

I did not have to do anything to market or bring them in or tell

them that you should trust me.

I just showed up and they're just like, great.

So learning how to run a business, how to market, how to talk about

myself in a way that didn't feel icky.

All of those things were huge learning curves.

And then I also found that a lot of What was taught online was very much

from a B2B model, so like a business to business, not so much a business to

consumer, and so the pricing, for one, was not a good fit for the audience that I'm

working with, and a lot of the marketing strategies also were not a good fit, so

I really had to bring things back to my roots as a nurse and look at how I can

incorporate some of the medical models, like the trans theoretical model of

change, into things like messaging and social media, because, yeah, social media

was also a foreign landscape for me.

I didn't have a single account on any platform, and I was just like, oh, shoot.

And I did not understand hashtags at the time.

It was rough, but yeah.

Now, sometimes I feel like I still don't, right.

Okay.

That's really interesting.

And what was it like for you the first time that you sat down and had

to set a price for your first offer?

So, I was actually working with a coach at the time.

And so they had to help me decide the price of it.

And it was, I think it was 1, 400, something in that sort

of range, 1, 400, 1, 500.

And I was really uncomfortable saying that value out loud.

And so they actually had me walk around my house and say,

1, 500 bananas, 1, 500 pots.

And just so I could get used to saying that word.

And then I remember the first time I was on a sales call with

it, I was like, it's 1, 500.

It was so uncomfortable.

And I just realized at that moment that, even though that was a good price for

some B2B marketing, for sure, When I look at the amount of time that you'd

get spending face to face with me and how much I would have charged as a

private practice registered nurse, or how much you'd pay a psychologist with

their PhD, that I want to be more in alignment with that kind of pricing.

And so that's where things kind of settled in for me.

And so that was a kind of coaching package or

Yeah, yeah, it was a Six session, 12 week coaching package.

Okay.

Super interesting.

You know, I, of course, as I go about my business and meet new people, sometimes

I, you know, we get into conversations, of course, about pricing and I'll ask

them, you know, what do you charge?

And a lot of times, especially more often from women, let's say

than, than from men, but I'll, you know, they'll answer with a, 1500?

You know, like, you're asking me the question, Yes.

And I always find it very interesting that, you know, the communication

around pricing because that little intonation is so telling.

Um, and, you know, of course any I, I recognize it in a different way that,

you know, a normal customer might, but a normal customer also recognizes

and feels that insecurity, they just may not be able to identify it in

the same way that, you know, someone, someone like me can, who kind of

looks out for those kinds of things.

Absolutely.

And that's where I feel like.

Absolutely, you need to charge what you're worth and own what you're charging, but

you also have to feel comfortable with it and not feel like you're undercharging.

I definitely did that for a little while.

But then I started to resent all of the sessions that I was doing

because I didn't feel like my value was being compensated for.

So, it's really when I kept experimenting and found the sweet spot, then on sales

calls, literally have no problem saying what I charge because it just fits.

It just fit.

So why don't you tell us a little bit more about that experimenting that you did?

Because I think that's really important.

A lot of people feel pressure when it comes to their pricing because they

think they have to get it right now.

Yes.

so one of the most important things I think any entrepreneur can do,

especially when it comes to their pricing is embrace curiosity.

So you go through your launch process of an offer or you go through sales calls.

And again, I've already admitted that I'm a super nerd, so you don't

have to do it to the degree that I do it, but I always look at some of

those metrics and just track things to see what's working, what's not.

I do market research to see, what's there?

And of course you don't want to be the like, big box store that sells

everything at a discount you want to be that specialist, but yeah, it's

just really embracing that curiosity.

Every launch, whether it brought in someone or no one.

I always went back to see okay, so what was it about this?

Could I interview some people in a focus group after and offer them a free session?

Just to be able to get more info.

when you don't take it personally, and when you decide, okay, I'll

get there eventually, I just need to find the sweet spot, then it

just changes the journey, really.

Like you're now open to continuing and seeing what happens.

Right, right.

I like that.

I like that a lot.

Let me look, I had some other things that I wanted to talk to you.

So one of the things that you, you shared with me was that you moved to a tier

pricing, tiered pricing system, let's say.

What was it you were doing before and what prompted that shift to tiered pricing?

So, I think like most people, before I was doing like a singular price for my

offers, and I had a number of emails from people saying, I really want to do this,

I'm super invested, I can't afford that.

And I'm not the kind of person that's like, you should go into debt for it.

I just don't feel like that creates a space of safety, and

that obviously creates a lot of stress, so it's not what I'm about.

So I started to evaluate and just look, and especially when I became disabled,

the perspective just shifted, and that there are some communities that are

disadvantaged and oppressed, and there's just no other way to look at it right now.

That's just a fact.

So by going to the tiered model, I offer " a choose your own

adventure" kind of pricing.

I give three different options.

They're all within a similar range and they're all prices that I'm comfortable

charging, but then people can choose a price that fits within their budget.

Since I did that, sales went way up, even for the middle tier pricing, which

is what we want most people to go into.

So it just really works super well across the board.

It's been received super well.

so well, and it allows me to really work with the communities that experience

the greatest amount of stress and the greatest amount of burnout.

So, even though, on paper, it seems strange to be like, choose your own

pricing adventure, and everyone's just gonna choose the lowest one?

Most people don't.

Most people go for the middle, and I actually get a number of people

in the higher one, because they know that they can, and they want to be

able to support people that can't.

So it actually is just this really beautiful makes you believe in humanity

again kind of Very interesting.

Yeah, I mean, it's true from a psychology perspective, not always, but usually

people tend to go with the middle price.

It's one way to, let's say, position things, and make it that attractive.

But I think what's really lovely about it is that it, it gives people

who really can't, or don't have the means currently, it gives them the

opportunity to still participate.

And I think that that's, that's amazing.

Yeah.

I really like it.

And I think one of the important pieces, just to clarify here,

is that no matter what price you pay, you get the exact same thing.

It's not like, if you pay more, you get this extra bonus of something.

It's like, no, everybody's the same.

Right.

Right.

Which also, I think it is a really important because it fosters a different

spirit within the context of the program.

You know, people don't feel left out, um, as they may in, in other types.

I mean, there's, there's strategies that go in the other direction as well.

And no, they work in some instances, you know, some markets

they work very effectively.

, Especially for you.

I hear from a lot of therapists that they struggle with, when their own challenges

into mentally and, you know, not being able to serve everyone, let's say.

And then often also sometimes feedback from people.

Well, you know, you shouldn't, you know, charge so much because,

because I can't afford it.

Right.

And I don't necessarily agree with that criticism, but I understand

from a therapist point of view, how hard it can be to sometimes hear

that, and how it can play with, your mindset, your emotions around pricing.

Absolutely.

And so that's why I built the app that I have because I know that not everybody

can afford to work with me one on one and I know that I'm not willing to decrease

that price because when I do that then I start to feel resentful and they

don't deserve me showing up that way.

So the app itself allows for similar kinds of supports, but

just with No face to face time.

And it just, again, still allows me to feel like I can help more people

because also I'm only one person.

So bringing people into an app allows me to help more, but also it just,

yeah, it gives option to people.

Right.

So the tiered offering is like for your group program, which I'm

guessing is online and partially live.

Is that, is that correct?

Uh, yes.

And it's also for the app.

So in the app there's the tiered option.

Okay.

So

I was curious if you do that for just specific parts of what you offer, if you

do that for, quote unquote everything.

Uh, so everything except for the one on one.

That being said, I do offer scholarship options for the one on one, which it

comes out as a pay what you can, and if you can't pay anything at all, I don't

know, because somebody else manages that.

And so it's, uh, still an option, but, yeah, it just, again, allows

people that are really committed to what they want to work on to

still get the help that they need.

I mean, yeah, it's beautiful.

Love it.

Absolutely love it.

So I'm curious, I'm looking again at my notes here.

Yes.

What's the biggest challenge that you found when it came

to pricing in your business?

Um, being patient, because I knew that what I had was good and I had

tested it with some people and I knew that it was good, but it was

just finding the right messaging, the right sticker to put on that and

combining that with the right price.

Because when you price things too low, as I'm sure you talk about here a lot, People

join and they don't really commit to it because they haven't put enough into it.

But when you price things too high, then again, you like marginalize some

people and really keep some people out.

Or even the people that can afford it need it, but they're like, oh no, they just

don't see the equation of value there.

So yeah, I think it's really just being patient enough to keep being

curious and just to keep being like, okay, When's next time?

What are we going to do next time?

And even though we've had this now successful app, and then all of my

programs and group coaching and one, one on one coaching, we still treat

every launch as if it was the same.

Cause we still like, okay, so here is our new baseline.

Where are we going from here?

How can we tweak it from here?

So it's really just totally embracing that curiosity.

It's the way to go.

Yeah, yeah, I love it.

Now, one thing that you've also shared with me is that you really rely on,

on data, but also understanding the importance of understanding customers.

I'd really like to hear what you have to say about that, because I think

that that's a really important message.

Yes.

So, um, I think also one of the things that I learned in the steep learning curve

of transitioning from a registered nurse into a business owner was that it's really

important to make sure that your offers are meeting your clients where they're at.

And so the app itself is kind of an introductory offer.

It helps people when they're kind of, Preparing to make those bigger changes,

but they're not quite there yet.

They still need to trust you, they need to trust in themselves.

It's about slowly building that trust over time, and also making

sure that you're marketing to those people in the right space.

So one of the clearest examples of this, I'm not a health

coach, so I don't do this.

But if somebody was marketing as a weight loss coach, and they're just

like, all you need is more self love.

And we all know that that's what you need.

need, but people just want to lose 20 pounds.

So making sure that you're giving people the right resources at the

right time that create the gap.

So that way they realize that the pile that they're standing in is not

something that they want to stay in.

So when we look at marketing, you want to think of it in those tiers

and also with your offers can meet people in those tiers as well.

Oh, that's brilliant.

Yeah.

I mean, to me, you know, a lot of people come to me.

I was just talking to this young lady yesterday and she's like,

I think there's just no need.

And I'm like, well, is there really, you know, cause when I looked at, you know,

what they were doing, um, they, you know, cast a really wide net to get to everyone.

And my first instinct was, I can see that this wide net that they've cast in the

way the copy is written and the way that they've done things, but I can imagine,

you know, as a customer, that that feels like How do you connect with that?

There's too much information there.

There's too many bullet points and it's hard to really see, you know,

how something that's, you know, like a one size fits all t shirt,

metaphorically speaking, right, can really attract customers.

Definitely.

And I think.

Like, again, if you're thinking about more what they need versus what they want,

then that really widens your net because, sure, you could help everybody if you're

a health coach that helps people with self love, but really narrowing down first to

that introductory offer that helps people as they're preparing to realize that they

need more self love, like, I think that's just, because when we think of niching,

I think a lot of us get scared because we're just like, oh, but I could help so

many more people if I don't niche, but.

Really, the more That you just really target in on that first niche topic.

That allows you then to start bringing business that way.

And once you got all those funnels set up, because you still have your main

higher level offer that multiple people can benefit from picking a new niche to

start marketing to with new channels and still bring them through because they can

all come in through to that top offer.

So picking a niche does not.

really limit you.

It's just your first point of focus.

It's, I was gonna say, it's like, it's like, , binoculars.

It's just like bringing the target into the focus.

Right.

And it doesn't mean that there aren't going to be other people who are

interested in what you do, or, you know, or who see the value in it.

It just means that you can actually align things in your business much better.

From sales to marketing to pricing to whatever, you know, it is that you

need, you can align it much better if you're focused on one at a time.

Absolutely.

And I actually have a really clear example of how niching doesn't eliminate anybody

because I was doing an entrepreneur mentorship thing for a couple of years

and I really enjoyed it, but it was also just taking away from the burnout thing.

So I decided to close that arm of my business down.

But before I did, And when I first started marketing, I decided that I only

wanted to work with women, and I only wanted to work with people that were

in the mental health or physical health space, because I knew that space really

well and how to market to that space.

So I had flowers and pink on everything because I was just

like, girls only, please.

And I had probably 40 percent men reaching out because they liked what I was saying.

And I was just like, So I had to change all of the marketing because I

realized that working with men was not the worst and they were drawn to how I

was teaching, so I needed to make sure that that was still inclusive to them.

But even though I was going super hard into the women in business side,

men still were very drawn to it.

Yeah,

it shows the power of the message that you were that you were sitting out there.

It overcame the branding.

It overcame the pink fluffy flowers.

Yes.

I am not a pink girl.

So it was well,

which is also, you know, it's funny how you think you have to do things

to just match your customers.

But I think it's also important to, you know, take your own

values and sense of things.

I know when I started my business, because, you know,

most people, when they I think.

Pricing consultants or consultants in general, they think of very buttoned

up people and navy blue suits and okay, got the spectacles and the

gray hair, but you know, there's a certain, you know, demeanor to them.

And I'm a little bit more Let's say casual and a little bit more like when I talk

about this topic, which can be a very serious topic, I try to bring it to people

at the level that they are and in a way that makes it more interesting and fun.

And I felt really nervous about, about doing that.

Yeah, fair.

But it's your approachability, Janene.

That approachability drives people.

That's the exact word.

The lady who I worked with on the branding, she told me I

wasn't allowed to use the word.

Fun.

And Approachability was the word that we came up with instead.

Absolutely.

So brilliant.

So Avery, what is next for you?

What is next for becoming Avery or your Creating Calm app?

Yeah.

So this year we're really digging into corporate speaking because

burnout is prevalent everywhere.

So I've done a couple already this year, just with corporate speaking.

Both the leadership team and the team, so we're really branching out

into that and then also licensing the app to corporations that want

to expand their benefit package.

So again, learning curve, it's rough, but, it's been a really fun journey and I am

so grateful to have a team behind me to help support me because otherwise I would

be running around with, like, a chicken.

Like, blah!

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's, I mean, us holding on to the integrity of, you know, behind what you do

and the values in your business as well.

Right.

So you don't want to end up back where you were in the past burnout.

So it's important to manage that going forward.

Absolutely.

So why don't we start wrapping this up?

What's one thing you'd like people to remember from our conversation today?

That the most important skill you can develop is to be curious, because when

we start to take it personally or think it's about us, then it makes it so

much harder to continue moving forward.

So, curiosity.

Yes.

Curiosity is the way forward.

I love that.

Thank you.

Is there a book or a tool that you'd like to share with the entrepreneurs

who are listening as well?

today that have helped them.

Yes.

So my favorite business book is called Storyworthy and it's by Matthew Dix.

And a friend of mine, also from Your Corner of The World, sent it to me and

it is That's the most clear way to how to break down a really impactful story.

So from all business owners, we need to learn how to tell our story

and other stories really well.

Fantastic book.

Highly recommend.

Okay.

It's one I haven't read.

I'll have to check it out.

Excellent.

And the last question.

Where can people reach out if they are curious to find out

more about working with you?

I would recommend you go to my website, BecomingAvery.

com.

There are Buckets of free resources there, including a quiz for how to discover

your self sabotage style and then what to do with it once you know what it is.

So you can definitely go and check out all of the things there.

Okay, cool.

I'll have to check that out as well.

So we'll put that in the show notes as well as, Avery's links on social media

so that you can reach out to her as well.

Avery, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

I really enjoyed our conversation.

And I think we, we talked about some things that are really

important and going to help people out there who are listening to us.

Oh, I'm really glad.

Yes.

I really enjoyed this conversation as well.

Super.

And to all of those of you who are out there listening, thank

you so much for joining us today.

If you have any questions, reach out and book a call with

me until next time, everyone.

I wish you a great day and as always enjoy pricing.

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how I might be able to help you.

Thanks once again for joining.

Remember, pricing can hurt or help your business.

Let's make sure it's helping you reach your dreams.

See you next time and as always, enjoy pricing.