From Shy Pricer to Confident Pricing – with guest Jeannie Dougherty

Welcome to Live With The Pricing Lady.

I'm Janene, your hostess.

This show is all about helping you build a sustainably profitable

business while making an unbelievable impact on your world.

Learn from my 20 years of experience and from my guests as we discuss their pricing

challenges, failures, and successes.

Pricing is a way of being or behaving in your business.

My mission is to help you confidently charge for the value you deliver.

Pricing is either hurting or helping your business.

Let's make sure it's helping you reach your dreams.

Hi, Jeanie, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me, Jeanine.

I'm very excited to be here.

I'm super excited to have you along.

So don't, why don't we start with a few rapid fire questions.

I'd like to know where are you joining us from today?

I am just outside of Washington, DC.

Ah, super.

What would you call your superpower?

Ooh, my superpower, I believe, is that I'm a money whisperer.

I can tell when people are hedging with their pricing and their value, and I

can also see when people have the money and when they don't have the money.

Interesting.

Look forward to learning more about that.

What's one interesting thing you'd like to share with us that

most people don't know about you?

Most people don't know I'm from the West Coast.

Huh.

Yeah.

I agree.

Okay.

Interesting.

Is that not something you share with people very often?

Well, I, I

mean, people think I'm like local here.

They're, they're like, Oh, you totally grew up here.

What high schools you go to?

And I'm like, well, West coast.

And they're like, what?

So.

Super excellent.

So next question, share with us a bit about what your business offers and

how, how you got to where you are today.

Okay.

Let's say.

So my business offers really started from a place of, , I was a counselor

and I really wanted to, do this money coaching thing, you know,

whatever this was going to look like.

And I was trained to do it in two separate modules.

And I realized that those offers were incomplete for me.

And

because I wanted to share more value and give people a leg up and make it easier

for them now, instead of like, you know, Buy this, buy that, buy this, buy that.

I, I don't really like that as a pricing strategy.

And I think people get exhausted from it.

Yeah.

Cool.

Excellent.

When you started your business, what was pricing like for you

the first time you sat down and had to set a price for something?

Yeah, it's a total comparison.

This is totally the way I was trained and I'll explain.

So I learned how to price myself as a counselor by not independent of

insurance companies by like, I've worked how long I know this special,

you know, I know anxiety or depression.

This is how I treat, you know, and then you just came up with

your price and nobody challenges you on it except for a few.

You know, I has this this now.

I never claimed to be here in the local area to price myself

well over two or 300 an hour.

Some people do.

And that's totally fine.

I'm not against that kind of pricing strategy.

But you probably want to make sure that you have more than just the price.

You better have a very nice office.

You better have, the latest in technology, and you also probably

better be a member of a country club.

And my experience is that people who really want your

help don't care about that.

So that was my experience.

So you totally find your own way by comparison, which is

not always a great strategy.

Right, right.

I mean, there's, it's good to understand where you fit in the marketplace.

But if that's the only thing that you're basing your prices on, it can be risky.

True.

And service service and products are, you know, when I think about it just

from a money perspective, like how do you create a price products are often,

you know, derived by like an algorithm, but service is like all over the joint.

Like, it's amazing to me what people will call, call a service

and then put a price on it.

And you're like, Oh, okay.

I didn't know that.

I didn't know you would charge for that.

Thank you for letting me know.

Right, right, right.

So when it comes to the topic of money and pricing, of course, there are a lot

of hangups and hiccups that people have.

What have been your observations in this area?

My first observation is I think the differences between the type of pricers

that I've seen, and I know Janine, you and I have talked about this.

There are the people that I would say that are bold.

There are some that I would say are stubborn.

And then I would say there are some that are shy.

And then there's some just have no idea.

It's whack a mole.

They just, it's like they throw anything at the wall, throw it at the wall.

See if it sticks.

And, and that's a, that's a very costly pricing, you know, process in my opinion.

I think it's fine if you're going to do it to start off, if you just, you don't

know, and you're just kind of curious and you're very small, but eventually

you're going to have to have some methodology, I think, to your pricing

eventually.

Right, right.

So tell me more about the Shy Pricer.

I'm curious about that.

So the Shy Pricer is one that probably started off a little bit like me,

very much in comparison, doesn't always understand their value.

And if they do understand their value, they're often a people pleaser because

they want to make sure it's a perfect price and they want to give you the

best price and then they're going to pull back and give you a discount, which

works in the brain very differently from when I say brain, I mean, the

money brain and that's it's kind of to your detriment if you do it that way.

Right.

So what do you mean by the money brain?

So I'm so glad you asked, I'm in the world of talking about money brain

all day long and everyone else is like, what are you talking about?

I'm like, sorry.

So if you go to a doctor, they're going to say, no, I'm sorry,

you don't have a money brain.

And they're right, because your entire brain works with money.

But from an emotional and behavioral rewiring perspective, which is what I

do, I talk about the left and the right.

Now there's always more to the brain.

There's always more complexity, but I find that your average

person won't not remember.

So why, why go there?

We're not neurologists.

Let's all just kind of cruise along.

So when I talk about the left side of our money brains, this is how

we primarily understand and learn and practice and fail with money.

So it's like, hey we're going to learn about numbers.

We're going to learn about logic.

We're going to learn about mistakes.

We're going to learn about sometimes money trauma.

And we're going to learn that from our families, from our communities and, you

know, our governments and social media.

Yep.

That's how we learn it.

And it's usually very negative.

Yeah.

It's not pretty good.

So if you want to get to the right side of the brain, which is where you're

more likely to experience forgiveness and empathy, if you've made a mistake,

you're going to be able to actually harness your creativity to navigate away

from a problem or a situation and go towards what the solution, which might

be a price or adapting your value in some ways so that the price will fit.

And the last piece, what I always love is about activating your, your

money brain, like I don't know about you, but sometimes we're exhausted,

you know, for all kinds of reasons.

And so when you go to approach your business or you go to approach your

service or your price, and if you're like, I'm going to start this today, then

you're probably going to price too low.

And it's not going to be good for you in the long run.

And I think people really need to take a good look at like,

are you ready for business?

Are you ready for a phone call?

Are you ready for a zoom?

Are you ready to talk to your customers or clients?

This is really important because when you're not ready, You owe, like

I've seen people miss buying cues.

They think that the person's going to buy just like the way they do, which

they might take a really long time.

Or like I wanted an answer now.

, I had a, I had an interesting conversation with, another woman

business owner who, her pricing, as far as she was concerned, she was fine.

She knew what she was doing, but she would try, she tried to walk

away from the sale in front of me.

And I was like, no.

I actually need you.

You don't get away from me like that easily.

And she was like, I never thought you did.

And I was like, no, I need you for this.

And she was like, Oh, well, this is my price.

I know.

That's why I'm here.

Cool.

So it's, you know, people are like, I didn't think you need me.

Yeah.

I've

had people tell me, Oh, I'll say, you know, as a business owner,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And they'll be like, Oh, I never thought of myself as a business owner.

Yeah.

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Yeah.

You're not just kind of like freewheeling it out here.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

So what would you say are the characteristics of a shy pricer?

Like if someone were to like reflect on their own behavior or their own

thinking, what are some of the cues they might see that, that might

indicate that that's where they are?

So my experience as a shy pricer is somebody who wants to get

ahead, but doesn't know how.

Like their numbers never match.

They can't get them to a place that makes sense to them.

That's why all the numbers look the same, which is somewhat true

and somewhat not true, right?

You know, sure, you can price it as anything, but you better

know what you're pricing it for.

Meaning like what is, you know, the service that you're getting or

the product that you're getting.

I would also say that these folks are like heavy duty people

pleasers and they know that.

They know they're probably not going to stop anytime soon.

But, you know, again, do you want your ideal client only?

Are you, you know, is it like somebody in the ballpark is fine for your price?

Or is it just a sweet spot that you just want these people?

And I think that's where it really scares people why they become very shy, because

it's easier to say you're working on it than committing to this is the price.

Right, right.

Do you think comparison plays a role in the personality type?

Yes, and competition.

And I'll, and I'll explain.

So, you know, a lot of times a shy pricer is looking out because

what other data do you have?

You just look out, you know, what, what is a 97 course on anything?

What's 27?

I've heard, shy pricers tell me like, well, I just want to know what

it'll sell at and versus, versus like, what should I price it at?

And, and I think that's a very interesting, sneaky money brain

switcheroo that we do with our brains.

What do

you think is, if we could just hit the right price, then it'll sell.

And it's like.

If you have a strategy behind it.

Yes.

I call that the build it and they will come theory.

Yes.

Yes.

Gosh, darn Kevin Costner.

And that, you know, the corn fields of, I think it was Iowa, but anyway,

I mean, we'll just follow this crazy little voice in our head.

We're going to knock down the corn, build a baseball farm, and then, or

basically, you know, baseball field, and then everyone's going to show up and.

It's kind of true, but there was like hundreds of millions

of dollars thrown at it too.

It's, I mean, in my opinion or my experience, actually,

it's rarely how it works.

Because people need to understand the value and then your price needs

to match with what you're saying.

I would say another characteristic of the shy pricer is what I

call preemptive discounting

where they

discount the offer before the client's even seen it.

Or they're throwing discounts out there preemptively because

they feel uncomfortable with the price themselves and they're

afraid of getting that rejection.

Yes.

Yes.

Like I feel like in coaching circles, like the 000 off for the

value is a common pricing gimmick.

I

mean, I appreciate if you're going to give me the discount, but if the thing

was always worth 5, 000, but you're pretending you're giving me 1, 500 off.

Okay.

I mean, I'm going to figure it out.

Yeah, I mean, those tactics work more often than we think they would because

a lot of buying is so emotional.

But again, there still has to be a layer of value expectation

there before people will still, you know, will make the purchase.

And if the discounts are too deep, then it starts to come on people's radars.

It's too good to be true as well.

Right.

I think so.

And I mean, of course, we haven't talked about the shy buyer, but I

mean, but the shy pricer for sure.

It's somebody who's like, I gotta get it just right.

And I hope everyone's gonna like it.

And it's like, no, they're not.

No one necessarily has to like your price at all.

Right, right.

Well, before, because I'd like to get into some tips.

I'd like to understand the shy buyer a little bit more because I would guess

when the shy buyer and the shy price are come together, things get interesting.

Well, I think so.

I mean, like my experiences of a shy buyer, sometimes they're

referred to as tire kickers because they, they mimic the same behavior.

They're checking you out.

They don't know they want to maybe ask some questions.

Maybe they don't want to ask any questions, but they're

just, they're lurking, you know?

And so a shy buyer might only purchase one thing from you and then

they'll study it very carefully.

Maybe they'll come back if they think it's a deal.

Maybe they'll ask a question.

Maybe they won't.

And I think trying to, to, to market to a shy buyer is a waste of time and money.

It really is.

I think it's better to find the buyer that's ready to buy today.

I think you were going to spend less frustration on that.

Than, you know, somebody who's sort of the lurking secret, not entirely

sure may want to ask you 5 times.

I've heard them also called the super slow cooker buyer, meaning they need a year

and a half to think about this decision.

Right?

I'm like, you know, that's somebody on your newsletter list, or maybe following

on social media who's just staring at you.

Right?

Okay.

Who knows what they're thinking.

Combing the

archives of your posts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm sort of like, who has that kind of time and

energy?

Yeah.

I agree.

It's a harder sell , in terms of, for a long period of time, you might

not even know that they're there.

Right.

Right.

Or you do have maybe like a minor interaction.

You try to be helpful and then they just.

You know what I mean?

Like they just kind of quietly disappear into darkness.

They're a little bit shy and we're all like,

okay.

But I think there's some things that you can do to filter those types of people

out, you know, for like your one to one calls or discover calls, whatever

you call it, you call that initial call that you have with a client prospect.

There are things you can do to not end up on the phone with those people, if

you will, or on a call with those people.

So that.

You know, they have the time to look at without wasting your time

by, by hopping on a call with you.

Not that it's wasted time.

Maybe I'm putting that a little bit harshly, but, , a better use

of both of your time, let's say.

I actually think that's really a good point because I've seen

this more often in people's discovery calls or first meetings.

They ask you, are you ready to buy today?

Not like, cause then it helps set the tone of you're not going to invest.

You want to know.

It's a conversation versus if you are ready to buy today,

then it's a conversation about here's my product or service.

Are you interested in this?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So one of my earlier episodes is actually on the topic of discovery

calls and how to position them.

Yes, like the pricing.

So good topic there.

So let's go back to the shy buyer for a moment because we've talked

about how to identify if that's where you're, you know, operating right now.

So what are the things, some of the things that you can be doing

to shift yourself out of that shell shy buyer mode or pricer mode?

Yeah.

Oh, the shy pricer mode you mean?

Mm-hmm . Not the buyer.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

So what I always try to say is, you know, to folks is that if you feel at least

80% certain on the price, go for it.

Mm-hmm . I mean, you can always change it.

Mm-hmm

. You can always have a sale.

You can always raise your rates, whatever you wanna do.

I've learned to just increase my rates because there's certain people I

would rather target than other people.

I've heard people say this over and over in business schools.

Like you will be dealing with people for a thousand dollars on a product

or service, like over and over who are constantly dissatisfied.

You raise it to 10, 000 and it's all sudden a different buyer.

And it's like, yeah you get somebody who's prepared, ready to spend the money

and is going to, you know, really get themselves in line to be like, I'm going

to take every note that I need to take and ask all those questions and follow

what you tell me because they understand the value, like you said earlier,

of what it is that they're buying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's one of the things that to me indicates a shy pricer is

someone who really doesn't understand the value of what they're offering.

And, and by value, I don't mean like a list of benefits.

I mean, the actual economic value of what your offer brings people.

And I think that's also an indicator, which means that if you do the work

to understand that better, then you can pull yourself out of that

shyness mode because you'll feel more.

Tell people it's like having the little secret in your back pocket that nobody

else knows when you understand that.

Yeah.

Hopefully other people get it, but you can't rely on them just to know it.

You have to be out there doing the work, helping people to understand that.

Yes, exactly.

Because if people don't understand, a confused buyer, that's like the

worst buyer will not buy from you.

Like they're done.

Like, and there's times that I look at people's stuff and I'm like, what is this?

And then I'll try to like, I'll, you know, may I appear like a shy buyer.

I'm trying to figure this out.

It's not for me.

I'm like, I'm obviously not the buyer.

I can't get it.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't even care.

Cool.

I love this topic of the shy buyer because it's something I've seen so much over

the years, still see, , regularly today.

I think it's something that's here to stay.

, one of the things that I like to talk about in this aspect is that,

you know, it's not your fault.

fault necessarily that you're a shy buyer.

It's only your responsibility to make sure that you pull yourself out of there.

One of the reasons I think a lot of people are stuck in this mode also

is because The aspect of pricing that they've been exposed to.

Yes.

It's from being a consumer and the retail industry.

And then they try to take what they see happening in the retail industry

and apply that to their small business, whether it be consulting or coaching or

product or software, it doesn't really matter, but they try to take those

tactics and strategies and apply them in a context where they're not suitable.

So that's one component, but then the other is sort of these money habits.

that people have.

what money habits?

are really contributing to that as well.

So again, I think it's that left side of the money brain and how people

try to cross over to the right side.

So the habits often are, I have money, I'm right, I'm not going to buy anything.

Right.

You know, I hear people say that.

And next thing you know, they bought something right.

And that is a retail thing.

That is like retail knows how to kind of slowly position.

Like they know how to put all these little things at the end of the,

you know, literally the days you had to go through the checking line and

then you'd start buying things there.

So they knew what it was.

Food was the big motivator and some like razors and like lotion and stuff like

that stuff that people needed, but forgot.

Right.

But I also think it's.

This really sort of thing that we have that we're like, well, I do have the

money I think, but I don't know if I should buy this or I should purchase this.

And this gets into our own value.

Do I deserve to pay for a service?

This is one of the things I think a lot of women business owners, they

try to do everything by themselves because that's the way they were raised.

That's how they raised their, their kids.

They did everything themselves.

They're incredibly exhausted and burned out.

And you're like, you just paid an extra 500.

Somebody would have done it for you.

What?

Yeah.

500 bucks.

I bet you had that somewhere, right?

You could have charged another client or whatever, you know?

And, and I think it's.

You know, this confusion too is, you know, I only want to work with my friends.

So this is where I think people get really messed up in the shy pricing,

shy buyer, you know, conundrum.

And that if I'm only working with people that I know where their kids go

to school, I like them, dah, dah, dah, dah, that can cause a major problem.

If you're trying to ask for the sale and the person's like I don't know.

So I'll give you an example.

So this woman, I think.

I really do think she was along the lines of the shy

Pricer.

She was working with a friend that she knew in her community.

They absolutely needed her help and so she offered to do this invaluable

service that they could get another job and this person did not pay them

and why because they did not put that front they put it last because you're my

friend i'll know you'll pay it they did not they still not paid them Yeah, and

I thought it is a few hundred dollars.

It wasn't a ton of money.

It doesn't matter, right?

Right.

And then I was like, oh no, you are in this little network of you

think because this person goes to the same grocery store to be nice.

That you're right.

I'll be nice and do this for you.

And then you get screwed.

And that's a nice way of putting it, but, you know, I always admire the

women and men business owners who are like, of course, I'm going to help you.

Here's where you sign up on my calendar and here's how

you pay and then we'll meet.

And if you're not able to do that, great.

Here's some of my free stuff.

Take it.

I remember I had a guest a couple of years ago, Ronna Lewis, and she said, get

your mind out of other people's pockets.

Yes.

You know, and I think the shy pricers also, you know, that person

mentality is like, Oh, well, I don't know if they can afford it.

And it's not your job as the business owner to decide what

your clients can or cannot afford.

It's up to them to decide whether or not they want to make the

investment.

That's right.

Because the money can come from anywhere and it's not all credit cards and you

know, your parents, but you know, people will just feel like, oh, I didn't,

you know, and that's, that's part of what I coach on is to teach people to

look at the opportunity is around you.

How are you positioning yourself?

How are you talking about what it is that you want?

What are your goals?

What energy or amount of energy you've got that you can actually

work on that every single day?

Because it's important.

Thanks.

single action that's going to compound into success, you know, versus people

are like, but I thought I just, you know, like I crammed for all my

other tests and quizzes at school.

You just do everything last minute.

And it's like, you can.

But you're probably not going to have sustained power to do that.

And that's the thing that certain buyers, like an ideal buyer, will

say, Oh, you seem to be kind of front and center, but I don't see

that you're posting consistently.

Before we start wrapping this up, I have one other area that I

think is, , let's say typical of the shy buyer in many cases, and

that's being afraid to raise rates.

Oh, yes.

Yes.

I think what it is is that they've got some folks, you know, they started them

off with a grandfather them and they've kept them at this price as they raise

their rates and increase the value.

They don't want to have that conversation because they're scared

to death they're going to lose them.

And I'm sort of like, you know, it's been 5 years.

Ask, just ask, you know, Hey, I just want to let you know.

Well, that's true.

But I find if you just ask them and say, Hey, are you liking my service?

You're like, I've raised my rates.

I don't know if you know that this next invoice will be da da da.

Because when you put it out there, like, did you know not I've raised my rates,

Janine, I mean, like, and I sit back, I said, I said, I'm like, this is my arms

folded, like, Who the hell told you to have a money conversation like that?

You just want to prepare people.

So they know, right, right.

That's it.

Because when people tell me the race rights, I go, Great, how much is it?

It's 10 more an hour or whatever it is, or I go, That sounds fantastic.

I'd be happy to pay it.

And then I went, Yeah, you do the following for me.

Okay.

I'm happy to pay it.

Right.

There's a lot of stress behind it.

And I love how you preempt it with a reminder of the

value that they're getting.

That's really important when you're communicating the price change.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because if they're like, I won't be able to do it, then

you can have that conversation.

Nine times out of 10, if they love you, they'll pay you the extra.

No problem.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I agree.

I think the challenge is, is it when you haven't raised them with some consistency,

and I've seen this a lot recently, the price discrepancy gets so big that then

the conversation feels a impossible.

And so it's really important for the shy pricer to understand that you should

probably be doing something with your prices regularly rather than waiting

five or 10 years and putting yourself in the position of having to do something.

Significant, which feels more uncomfortable.

Yeah, this is why I love newsletters and social media posts.

You can definitely talk, I mean, and usually you see it like around Black

Friday and here in America and then also, you know, towards the end of the

year, next year, the prices are going up.

They don't necessarily what they are, but they are going to go up.

And so I go, great.

And then when people tell me what their prices are.

It's not, it's not like it's 10 million dollars.

No, no.

It's like a few hundred dollars.

It

amazes me how, , how stressed out the peep, you know, the person who's

selling something gets over a couple of percent increase in their price.

And in their minds, there's this image of, you know, thousands

of customers running over.

and it's, you know, it's, it's unrealistic, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, I actually chuckled at this.

I saw this.

This is a national news.

There's a chain.

It's called Waffle House.

I've actually never been.

I've never felt to go to the Waffle House.

Not because I don't like waffles.

I've just, I've never been.

I don't do a lot of processed food.

So I try to That's my thing.

But anyway, there's a Waffle House somewhere out there and I'm not

saying, but they're having to raise their egg rates by 50 percent like

how much they charge for eggs.

And I'm like, well, that doesn't sound bad in the midst of, you know, an avian

flu outbreak and you know, whatever else is going on in the economy.

And, you know, of course they have to find people who are like 50 cents.

I don't know if we're gonna be able to eat there.

And it's like, come on.

Come on, that then that's

obviously not in some ways that they hadn't made the

announcement and they just did it.

Probably 99 percent of people would never even have noticed.

But now we know Waffle House is charging 50 cents more an egg.

Oh my God.

Crazy.

Well, why don't we go ahead and start wrapping this up?

What's one thing you'd like people to remember from our conversation today?

I would love them to remember that the struggle for pricing

is a money brain issue.

It's not just this isolated thing that showed up in your life.

Great.

Love that.

Do you have a book, a podcast, or something you'd like to share

and recommend to listeners today?

I don't have a book or a podcast.

I'm actually I am publishing a book later this year, but it's not available now.

Sorry guys.

But, I've not had a podcast yet.

I don't think I'm ready for podcasts.

Or one that you listen to that you enjoy?

Oh, you mean yours?

I love, that's how I found you.

You're already

here listening, so maybe you can come join us.

Well, you know, what I do have that is, I have a money type quiz, and that is

available on my website, that is, , you can take it, and if you want to talk to

me, you'll might find like, We're going to talk about your money making capacity,

which is, you know, the whole point of what I'm looking at when I look at your

quiz, like, as I said before, that money whisperer, I can tell what's going on.

Excellent.

So we'll put a link to that in the show notes.

And one last thing before you go, if people want to reach out and connect

with you, where should they go?

GlobalMoneyCoach.

com.

Okay, we'll put that link there as well.

Jeanne, thank you so much for joining me today here on the show.

It was a great pleasure.

Any last words before we part?

Yeah, I'm here to help you make your money work for you.

Super.

Excellent.

All right, everyone.

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Live with the Pricing Lady.

If you have any questions, you can reach out to Jeannie or I. We'll put her contact

information in the show notes for sure.

I wish you all the best.

Have a great day.

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See you next time and as always, enjoy pricing.