You Got the Grant. Now What? Managing Ocean Projects with Melissa Weber

1:00:00 One of the things as an ocean leader you have to do is you have to have projects. You have to do something, whether you are starting a business, whether you are managing a student from a graduate perspective, or whether you're a nonprofit program manager and you got to manage a bunch of projects, you got to get that project, right? You've got to write that grant. You got to put all the time and all the effort and the blood, sweat and tears to get that grant. We all know what it's like to put together a proposal. It takes days, weeks, months, maybe even years, depending on what you're going for, gathering all the partners. It's a huge task. Then you hand it in, you cross your fingers, hope for the best, and then you get that beautiful email to say, "Hey, we're giving you this grant.

1:00:44 Congratulations." And then you're like, "That's wonderful. Let's close this laptop. Let's go celebrate." And then three days later you come back and you're like, "What do I need to do to manage this project?" That's going to be the focus of today's episode, is managing a project once you receive that grant. It's something that's not talked about a lot with Ocean Projects and within the Ocean Leader community. We love talking about receiving grants. We love talking about applying for grants and then receiving those grants. Or sometimes we talk about not receiving a grant, why we didn't receive it. But we never really talk about the management of a project, which is like the foundation of how to not only manage one project and make sure it's successful, but also to build the relationship with that funder so that you can help your chances of getting more grants with that funder. So today on the podcast, we have Melissa Weber, who is the co-CEO of Pisces, the Pisces Oceans. This is who I work for as the Ocean Manager. My name is Andrew Lewin and we are here to talk about what it's like to manage a project as an Ocean Leader. Melissa gives us her best advice and it's amazing. You're going to love it.

1:01:59 So here is that interview. Enjoy and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Melissa, welcome back to the Ocean Leaders podcast, a Pisces podcast as you being one of the co-CEO's of Pisces. This is where we discuss some of the things that we go through on a regular basis. We help clients through. One of the big things that we talk about is grants and after you receive the grant. And I think we're going to talk about this and we'll talk about what the steps are after you get a grant and what people may be missing. Before we get into that though, Melissa, just remind us who you are, what you do, and then some of the work that you've done in the past with Pisces. Yeah, for sure. Thanks, Andrew, and thanks for having me. I'm really happy to be here and excited to talk about one of my favorite topics, research administration. So who I am, my name is Melissa Weber. I have my PhD from the University of Ottawa. I spent 10 years in academia as a student, a researcher, research assistant, all those fun things. And then I've spent my professional career at Pisces. So I joined during the pandemic and have been with the company through all sorts of changes and really sort of niched myself in the research administration space. So I have lots of experience with not only administering grants, but also proposal writing the full project life cycle.

1:03:30 I really think that's interesting because that's something we're not necessarily taught as an undergrad, right? You go through undergrad as a social scientist or as a marine scientist or whatever you're doing in science or even any really aspect. I don't feel like there were courses to handle the project management unless you took like a PMP outside. Where did this interest come from for you in terms of just looking at how to manage projects? Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's just something that's kind of falls within my unique abilities and skills, like just how I think very logical, organized, very also curious. And I would say like, it's really interesting in the university system because as an undergrad, you don't really understand how it works. You're just kind of one of the ants marching through. And even at the master's level, you don't fully get it.

1:04:33 But then once you're at the PhD level, you start to, the layers of the onion start to unpeel and you're like, "Oh wow, this is how this works. This is how being a professor works. This is how professors get money. This is how the grant system works and all things." And so I was exposed to it during my PhD in different ways. Always hearing about reporting that was due and all sorts of things. But it was really working with Cass and under her leadership and mentorship where I really started to like peel back the onion quite quickly. Like, "Wow, there's a lot to learn and a lot to understand in this space." And you're right, it's something that's taught because in the university space, it falls under the realm of the professor, the academic holding the grant. And in the nonprofit space, it's just part of running a nonprofit. So it kind of just gets overlooked a lot of times.

1:05:40 Before we go on, because I have some questions around that, especially in the graduate work that you did. Just to remind you, Cass was our CEO before and she moved on. You and Natalie took over. So she was here at Pisces when you joined. So she taught you a lot about it because that was her specialty. You guys both have that unique ability to kind of look, Christy as well, to kind of look in that logical fashion to do that. But when you were in graduate school, and you had to do a little bit of that, you had to start looking at reporting for grants. Did you even think that was a thing? Because for me, when I did my master's, I never had to do any reporting. So I was given the grant by my professor, he had the money, I went in, I did my work. So from then I was like, "Grants are just free money. You do your work, you produce your paper, your PhD or whatever, and then you just move on." But that's not the case. Somebody has to, there's no money that is just given and just be like, "Do whatever you want with." There are certain things you have to do back. Can you just kind of talk a little bit about that and then your journey, as well as some of your classmates who went through it, did they struggle with it at all in terms of managing that? Yeah, that's a good question. I can't pinpoint the moment when I figured it all out. But there was little things during my PhD, managing my field work and all

1:07:11 those stuff. Of course, it was covered under grants that my supervisor had, but just making sure, having a budget, what will the university... I mean, there's different layers to it because it's like, what will the university cover? Then what will the grant cover? And fortunately, I was with a very world-renowned researcher who had lots of money, so it was a little less stringent, I guess, because things kind of moved in different places. But yeah, it's kind of a lot to figure out. When you're a student, you don't fully understand either. So you're just like, "Okay, sure." You're just kind of going through whatever people ask you. You're like, "Absolutely." But I think actually working...

1:08:04 Because during my PhD, I worked in Nunavut with different Inuit communities and my PhD research was in Joe Haven. I kind of learned some of these nuances, I think earlier than most. One of the big ones that really kind of opened my eyes to how complex the system can be is that when I was in Joe Haven doing my field work, I wanted to extend it to provide honoraria. At this time, the university, there was a lot of changes and it was challenging. We're trying to balance this, "Well, we can't just hand out cash."

1:08:51 But then it's like, "Well, okay, then what do I do?" And so trying to work with them to find a solution that works for everyone because it is such a unique situation and doing research there is a different context than other parts of the country or even the world. So I think that was a major barrier to it. And then really, I jumped in head first when I started working here at Pisces. I joined as the ocean allies intern on a My Tax internship and that in and of itself was a whole learning curve. And I think that's really where I was like, "Wow, having grants is a lot more than just money. There's a lot of strings attached and a lot of moving pieces." I mean, again, especially within the university context, the amount of people involved in administering a grant and getting the money from in the situation of My Tax, from My Tax to the student, there's a lot of people that need different things and it's not as simple as it all sounds when you think about it.

1:10:14 And a lot of the times, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but all these layers, they've been installed as checks and balances to ensure that the money is being used for the project that it was assigned to and that people are following the rules. So although a lot of the times someone like myself would be like, "Man, this is a pain in the butt. This takes up a lot of time," which it takes up a lot of time. You should view it more as change that, flip that narrative as like, "This is the foundation of managing this grant. It's not just money. I want to make sure that the agency that granted me this money knows that I'm using it properly and putting all that by doing everything that's necessary and giving them the reports and talking to the right people and making sure that I have spreadsheets upon spreadsheets upon spreadsheets to make sure I'm tracking everything so that when they question it, they can just look at it and be like, "Okay, cool.

1:11:14 Melissa's doing really well. Andrew's doing really well. We know that the next time funding comes around, if they apply, we might want to go for them because we know that they followed the rules and they follow this foundation." But I think a lot of people think of it in a different way of just like, "Oh, this kind of gets in the way of the research that I'm doing," which is very important too, but it's kind of like, "Oh, okay." But I kind of want to take it back a little bit because you've done your PhD, you've done the managing, you've worked with Pisces and you work with clients. We work with clients to make sure that they are able to put in the right reports, make sure those checks and balances are done so that they can focus on the research. Because a lot of the times it's like these teams are small or they're busy doing the research and they can't do both because it's a lot of work. I mean, we were just talking about it earlier, there are major organizations out there that employ specific people to just do the reporting back to the granting agencies, which I think is important.

1:12:09 But I think what a lot of people think is like when you apply for a grant, there's so much to go into applying for a grant. There's making sure you got your team in place, making sure that you've got the right budget and make sure that you have everything that you said you've done, you could do, all that kind of stuff. It could take months, it could take weeks, you never know how long it takes to put together. And then you apply and you just sit back and cross your fingers, hopefully that you beat out anybody else that comes in and then you get it. And the chances of getting it depending, the odds are not in your favor a lot of the times if you don't know the agency and things like that. But then you get it and you're like, "Woo-hoo, this is awesome." We get to do the work that we've always wanted to do, we get to help a community out, we get to do all this beautiful stuff and understand the earth a little bit better, especially in our case where we're in the ocean.

1:13:02 But then it's like, we talk about all this stuff to put the application together, but then we never really talk about, you never see it at conferences. You see grant writing is important, you never see it at conferences, like how to manage everything. Why do you think there's not focus in how to manage a grant? I've never seen a workshop at a conference, I've never really hear people talking about it because there's so much to go into it. And if you're not used to it, like as a student or a young professional, you may not know what to do. Yeah, that's a really good question. I never thought about why it's not talked about. And I think it's because people just, for lack of a better word piecemeal it together, they just push through and find a way, hire a student, hire someone, or just make it happen. And I think also it's not a sexy topic. I mean, grant writing is like how to get more money, how to, that excites people, but how to manage your better. It's not super exciting. I mean, it's one of those things where the business case is super strong. The return on investment is there. It's clear, but again, it's just not, I don't think it's exciting. It doesn't excite people.

1:14:27 And I think you're right. I think it's not like that out of a project, you want to get the money and then you want to get the results. And that's the sexy part of doing these projects. But it's almost like, I like to do an analogy. It's almost like getting fit, right? You want to start where we're not in shape, like say for me, not in shape. I start to eat right and get better and work out. That's the work. That's not the fun part. But when I show my results six months, a year later, then people are like, "Ooh, what did you do?" And then you start talking about the work and people are like, "I don't really want to know." I had to do meal prep and I had to do this and I had to work out and it was hard.

1:15:12 I got injured. There's all that stuff in the middle. I feel like that's the project management of managing a grant. So to introduce people, the audience is listening to this. Can we just talk about if, once say you get a grant, let's just look at an average. I know each grant is unique itself. Can we just talk about what should be the first steps? If you get a grant or even an investment where there's some sort of reporting or requirements, what should be the first step that ocean leaders take to ensure that they are covering their basis and they can lay it out all in front of them? Yeah, that's a really good question. So typically, I would say more often than not, what happens is you get the email. Congratulations, you have been selected for a grant. Yeah. Then you close your laptop and you have a beer and then you celebrate for like three days, right? Exactly. But it's not quite that simple. So once you know you've been selected, typically in the pool of candidates, then you need to go through what I call the grant finalization process. So with the government, it's like finalizing the contribution agreement or you know, finalizing the specifics of the grant. And so that can be a process. It depends on the agency. It depends too, like a lot of times, I would say more often than not, the lag time between when proposals are submitted and when the

1:16:44 announcement is and then when the contribution gets finalized, it can be pretty significant. So that is a process in itself where a lot of times it's just providing clarifying information. So in my experience, a lot of times it relates to the budget. So you know, when you submitted your budget, you said employee 1234. Well, okay, then they want to know what is the salary of employee 123 and four, which code do they fall into? Like what is their job category? Sometimes they need that information or you know, it's like really just clarifying like, okay, you have this amount of subcontractors, was there a fair process? Or like, did you, how did you determine that this contractor is going to be the one performing X, Y, or Z? It can be details on that.

1:17:42 Sometimes it's even like if you have a line item for materials and supplies for one grant, they're like, okay, so what are you going to spend this $2,000 on? So it's like, all right, well, I'm going to buy 10 pens. Like line items in a budget, you got to put it all out, lay it all out. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, that's kind of if I'm preparing a proposal. Now, I always, I always do that now, because I know that eventually they're gonna ask. I mean, not necessarily again, it's so dependent on the grant, the person administering the grant as well can, can definitely change things. But yeah, typically, it's just like clarifying, you know, exactly what you're spending the money on or intend to spend the money on and, and also the activities like what, you know, are the sometimes the last, you know, do you want to adjust things because of the leg time? Sometimes that's not an option. If the money has to be spent by the end of fiscal and, you know, things didn't get finalized till November, well, too bad, so sad, you got to, you got to go because the money has to be spent. But if there is flexibility, they, you know, sometimes that's an option. And then sometimes they have the funder has constraints on if the grant runs across multiple fiscal years.

1:19:08 Sometimes they can say, well, we actually, you know, you know, we understand that you want 900,000 over three years, but we, based on our accounting, we want to give you X amount in year one, X amount in year two, X amount in year three. So it's a lot of back and forth to try to kind of reach that middle where everyone is happy with how to proceed. Yeah, I think that's interesting. And one thing that really caught my ear was you saying having almost like having it ready, even as you do the proposal, just in case, like almost having templates ready, where if you have to buy specific items, they're already there, because now you're not repeating it for the next grant. And you said, as you said, every grant is different, but there's probably going to be line items that you have to put together if you already know what you're going to be spending it on as you're thinking about the proposal, because you're doing that through the budget. You should be doing that through the budget anyway.

1:20:04 You're not just picking, like when you do a budget proposal, you're not just picking a number out of thin air. You're putting together everything that's done. When you look at projects like this, as you get the grant start to kind of do all your templates and use all the different things that you're supposed to be using, how much time should you allocate to managing the project when you look at the entire grant? And is it, I'm going to add to that, is it done in the proposal to make sure that that time is accounted for within the grant? Yeah, that's a great question. It's really hard to say because it depends so much on the grant, how many partners there are. So if you have a grant where you're relying on co-PIs or like co-investigators or co-partners to deliver elements of the work and they're receiving money, like that adds a lot of administrative overhead to it as well. It depends on the reporting requirements of the fund. So a lot of grants have an annual report.

1:21:16 Some grants have biannual and some grants have quarterly. So that also influences the amount of time. And then it depends, like the subject matter can also influence that. Are you, you know, if you're in a university, how much, you know, do you require research ethics? Do you require research you know, are you relying on ordering equipment like tags? There's a lot of things to come, that come into play. But I definitely think it's worth, it's absolutely worth including in your grant proposal because either, you know, allocating that line item or that budget amount to a current employee or someone external like Pisces or, you know, like having that kind of tucked away in your budget, I think is really, really important and really helps the project move forward.

1:22:18 Yeah, no, I totally, I totally get that because having all that organized really helps, right? And knowing what you're going to allocate so you're not spending all that extra time, especially if you don't have a plan down and you do your work and everything, all of a sudden dates come up like, "Hey, where's my reporter?" And then you're doing it last minute, you're not doing a good job. And that speaks to the relationship you have with, let's say, the fundraiser or the agency that granted you that fund because you want to build that relationship with the agency. You may have tried, you may have put in work to build it before, right? So, before you put in the proposal, you're talking to agencies like, "What are you looking for in terms of, you know, giving out grants and what type of organizations or individuals and things like that?" The relationship matters throughout that, not only the grant experience, but even after to get more. What does like a healthy multi-year funder relationship look like from a project side? Yeah. So, I think it's really important to have a main point of contact, someone who is the liaison with the funder who can build that relationship.

1:23:33 And ultimately, transparency is key. Like, being honest, like, you know, if you're not going to be able to spend your money, then flag that early. Don't wait until March 25th and be like, "Oh, just kidding. I can't spend it." You know, being honest, transparent and responsive, there's going to be a lot of questions that come up, a lot of questions. You're going to repeat yourself a lot. So, you know, setting up the systems at the beginning of the project, you know, recording information like all the students, collaborators, partners, etc., having all that information somewhere is really important so that when you do get questions, you're not like, "Wow, how am I going to figure this out?" And then going through your emails, trying to figure out who's who and whatnot. Having it all in one place, you just open the spreadsheet and you're like, "Oh, okay.

1:24:25 Yeah. Here's the information you need. Let me know if you need anything else." I think for me, that's been the most successful is just, you know, being honest and being responsive and getting them the information they need in a timely matter is super important because it can be frustrating to receive those emails because you're like, "Oh, okay. Now, again, or, you know, I already submitted this or what have you." But I think the thing to remember is they're often working on, like, you're not their only file. So they're sending out emails to like, I have no idea what their caseloads are like, but multiple people and, of course, you know, things get lost. And with some of the programs, you know, you're sending multiple, you're sending back and forth multiple documents.

1:25:16 Like, you know, sometimes things get lost in translation. So I think just, you know, having patience and empathy is really important as well. And I guess what happens, like you mentioned one thing where it's like, if you can't spend the money, you want to flag it earlier. So if you're doing your budget and you realize, "Oh, okay. So this isn't going to come through depending on timelines and when you receive the grant and everything like that." But what if something goes wrong? Like there's a delay in the project for weather or because in the field or something doesn't come through that as you expected it to come through, or maybe you missed a milestone for whatever reason, or you had to change direction because the study didn't really work out the way you expected. We know that happens quite a bit, whether it's social studies or natural sciences, right? Social sciences and natural science.

1:26:05 How do you bring that up to the funder? Yeah, that's a good question. So, you know, bring it up early and be honest. Say, you know, like, "Look, I understand we're supposed to have three events by the end of fall 2026." You know, due to the fact that, I don't know, whatever the circumstances are, you know, due to the fact that we've had trouble onboarding for this position or there's been a delay in x, y, or z. You know, just you know, being honest with like, "This is why it's happening and this is the solution." And I think that's the key. Not just saying like, "Oh, we have a problem here," you know, raising the alarm bells, but also saying, "We understand that we're not going to hit our milestone, but we are confident we will hit it by March 31st, 2027," or "We'll have you." So, just kind of, you know, making sure that you have a solution in mind. And if you don't and you're really stumped, you could say, you know, "I'd really love to meet to talk about how we can proceed because I'm not sure what to do." I mean, that's what they're there for, is to help you help the project succeed and help you succeed as well. So, just leaning on them for support and, you know, sometimes it's like, "Okay, well, that's not going to work, so we want to transition the money to,

1:27:37 say, another line item or what have you," and a lot of grants have a variance that you're allowed to move things without getting permission. And if you're over that variance, then just reaching out and saying, you know, "This is what we'd like to do and this is why, you know, can you approve this so that we can move forward?" So, if you're going with something that changed, have at least one solution that you can do based within the rules, of course, or if you need like an exception, then presented, be like, "We could do this, but we'll need you your approval to do that," or "I wanted to run it by you," or something like that, right? Yeah, for sure. And keeping them in the loop is, you know, there's no harm in that. Like, if you're, even if you're moving money around that's within the variance, just letting them know, you know, if you're unsure, then it's better to, you know, better to be safe than trying to untangle something down the road. Well, and of course, things change, you know, items get more expensive, you know, sometimes you're running the proposal a year before you're doing the project. You never know when a tear is going to pop up these days or not, right? And that could affect your project. And you just, so you might have to shift some things around and you can just say, "Due to this change, we're shifting this money and keeping them in the loop." Now, we know what we should be doing. What do you find project leaders do that could be wrong, you know, about how they communicate with the funder?

1:29:07 Because there's one thing that kind of stands out that people might do or might not do, you know, to help that relationship along or that keep it transparent and things like that. Yeah, I think ignoring them, not intentionally. I don't think it's ever intentional, but you know, emails pile up and like, you know, get busy. Yeah, get busy, forget. And I think, you know, like having different passing them to different people can also, you know, yeah, be hard because then they could, you know, on both ends, because then you're constantly talking to a different person, you need to start from the beginning and then, you know, on both sides.

1:29:57 But I think those are kind of the main things. I think it's just time is always the culprit. And sometimes they're reaching out to you being like, "I need an answer now." And yeah, if you have to dig, you don't always have the answer now. Yes, true. True. And sometimes it's not necessarily anybody's fault. It's just some things happen, right? And like, if you think about, I'm thinking like nonprofit people, academics and startups, you know, as they're trying to do everything and they're trying, you know, the multiple projects on the go, they're trying to lead everything. And if they're not able to do that, maybe designate someone to the organization. And as you said, the person that you're dealing with at the granting side or vice versa is not new every single time. So you don't have to repeat yourself and go through that. And they have the history, you know, around that, which I think is really important. And I think, you know, when we talk about the spending of the grant and making sure you're hitting that timeline, before fiscal year and end of fiscal is really important to a lot.

1:31:12 I know Canadian government end of fiscal is March 31st and everything has to be done before that date or else you can't put that through. And it's a hard deadline. I remember working at the government and that was panic time a lot of the times for us to try to get stuff through and hire people and all that kind of stuff. But like, why is spending on a schedule sometimes so much harder in practice than it sounds on paper? And you look at it, your spreadsheet, you're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I got all this done. But like, what could come up that can make it a little bit more difficult that people may not anticipate at the beginning? Yeah, I think there's a lot of factors. So if the grant and spending requires hiring, that can be a challenging one.

1:31:59 Also, like the work, you know, things, as we talked about things change and delays happen. So if you've got a big chunk of money going to a contractor to do X, Y and Z, and then that gets pushed into the next fiscal year, well, you know, then you're going to have to kind of offset that delay. And I think honestly, what happens a lot of times is the initial leg in the proposal grant writing, like grant submission, and then the actual like start date of the grant. Because sometimes you could have a solid eight months in year one, based on what you when you believe the grant will start.

1:32:48 And that can quickly shrink to six months, five months, four months, and then all of a sudden, say it's four months, and you have to spend half a million dollars. It's like, Oh, all right. Like, it's not as easy as it sounds. No, I mean, it depends, though, it really depends on the grant, like if you're buying equipment and that kind of stuff. Yeah, maybe it's possible. But sometimes there's also a leg time in, you know, purchasing things like, you know, I don't know, I can't I'm trying to blame. Yeah, yeah. Or like ocean tech, like, you know, yeah, there can be a leg time or a big one also is research vessels like getting time on a research vessel can be a challenge. And if you don't secure your spot, you could miss out on an entire field season. So there's kind of there's a lot of factors and and there's, you know, there's strategies like, you know, paying things ahead of time, or, you know, etc, which funders don't love. But there are sometimes but you almost have to talk to the your liaison at the agency that's being that's funding you, right? To just be like, Okay, we know this takes six weeks for delivery. We

1:34:18 need to be on the road or on a ship with this instrumentation in seven weeks. So we're going to order it ahead of time to make sure that it comes on on time. Right. So again, it's that open dialogue to just be like, just a heads up, you're going to see this spent pretty quickly because, you know, you're going to see this, you know, this is a process that you're going to be doing. And you're going to be doing a lot of research vessels going out or whatever the project is, and you have a you have a timeline to hit. Is there any like advice you can give to ensure like any practical tools or approaches you use, you know, to keep making sure you're spending and the timelines are aligned, you know, in the project as the project moves along? Yeah, well, I think one of my biggest strategies is in the proposal writing. So you know, if it's a three year grant, for example, keep year one light and achievable bulk year two, because that's when a like, a bulk of the work is getting done, for lack of a better word and then keep, you know, keep year three light ish, like, heavier than year one, but like, allowing for some of that spillover if necessary, like kind of as a catch up. That's, you know, if it's a three year grant, that's sort of my strategy. But I think in terms of managing the budget, it's really important to look at it at the beginning of each year and say, Okay, what do I know for sure that is going to be spent this year? And so in in my spreadsheets, I always have committed or obligations column in the

1:35:49 spreadsheet. So I'm like, okay, well, this salary, for sure going to be committed, put it put that number in there, you know, okay, I know that this event is happening for sure, put the total and you know, things that you know, are are happening, you know, record them there. And then also as things get spent, keep them keep it updated. And then, you know, at the sort of six months, six month mark is really when you're like, Okay, can we can we spend the rest of this money? Is this going to happen? And for some grants, there is leniency, you can carry forward. So then that's not a big deal. But then, you know, you have to keep in mind if you carry forward, you still have to spend it eventually. So, you know, which again, it sounds it sounds ridiculous to say, but it can happen, I think, especially in the academic setting, when some researchers or academics have money coming from multiple sources, it kind of becomes this this game of chess, where you're like, okay, well, this fund ends December 30, or March 31.

1:36:58 So we put this student's salary there to use up that money. And then, you know, you're kind of just playing a game of where, where money needs to be spent, moving people around based on based on what they're doing, and, you know, where there is money to to them. Like, especially for a PhD student, right, because it's four years. So if you can, you know, play around with your funding so that they you know that they're going to be funded all four years, that's kind of the ideal scenario. But it's really just keeping eyes on it. And I think the hardest part is that you have to do double accounting, whether you're at a university, an NGO or an company, even like Pisces, you have your accounting software, where everything gets entered, where people are paid, purchase orders, all that sort of stuff. You really, you have to have a separate, in my opinion, separate spreadsheet where you're tracking everything, because the university balance may say one thing. But you need to have that spreadsheet with all the the notes of what's happened when especially around the end of fiscal, because often in the university setting, what happens is there's journal entries going all over the place. And sometimes they don't get posted until April or May. So you in your spreadsheet, you need to say, okay, this is dated May 1, but it's actually from last fiscal year.

1:38:29 And so that's really important, because if you were to just pull the report from the university, your number is going to be way different than if you look at your your spreadsheet. And also the advantage of taking meticulous notes is that in two years when the funder asks you, wait, what is what's up with this expense, you don't have to be like, wait, memory, you can go back in your spreadsheet and it's there. And also other people can view it as well. So it's not just in someone's brain. Absolutely. I think that's really great advice, because, you know, like you said, there's so much that happens in a project, you're not going to remember the thought of you remembering something that makes my brain heard of having to remember what happened like two years ago, you know, in a project, especially at the beginning, when it becomes such a blur within that two years, and you just you're focusing on results. And it takes what, five minutes to put in those extra notes in a comment section in a spreadsheet or things like that. So as long as you maintain it and do it right away, you can put in the more detailed notes that somebody questions you on something or goes back and asks a question like, Yeah, well, this is why we changed it. And I think that that makes like, like perfect sense.

1:39:50 You get a lot of great tips in this episode already. I'm gonna ask you for one more. I hope that's okay. Yeah, there's a there's got to be a mindset shift from grant writer to grant manager. What's that? What do people need to make to get into that mindset shift, like to make sure they can go from grant writer to grant manager if they are the same person? Yeah. I think it's organization like the more you know, it can feel like a lot of time, especially at the beginning, getting everything set up, organizing a spreadsheet, I mean, it doesn't have to be a spreadsheet, spreadsheet, whatever works for you and your, you know, how you like to work, but setting up some sort of document where you're keeping track of all the things is super important because it just time in the end, like there's one funder, they, you know, have a lot of questions like the reporting is it's a it's a long report. It's a lot of questions. And, you know, every year, it says, you know, who are all the HCP on the project? And first, you know, for this was a five six year project, like a list gets pretty long. So can you imagine if you didn't write it down anywhere, every year going being like, Oh, right, who are the HCP? But it's not

1:41:20 only having the list of HCP, but keeping it in the format that they ask is also huge because then you're not like, right, what is their email? What is their birthday or and they may not be with them. They may not be with you anymore. Like on the board, you may have moved on or something long gone. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes they ask like, okay, who of HCP, how many moved on to secure jobs and stuff. And then if you're trying to go back four years and being like, Oh, where did that person go? Or, you know, and especially if you have a project with multiple partners, they become names to you. Like you don't actually know them. Personally, you just know that they're part of the project. And, you know, so, um, yeah, it, it takes time initially to set things up.

1:42:09 But once you have it set up in a rolling takes like five minutes to go in and add a student or like for the financials, like go in and add an expense to the ledger. You know, it, it really doesn't take time to maintain, but it takes a lot of time to go try and rewrite history. If you're starting off with a blood of brain power and a lot of time, which you don't always have when you're multi, when you're managing, not one project, but usually multiple projects. And that can be, that could be a lot of time and a lot of headache if you have to go back and do that. So having that initial setting up that initial template might take a little bit of time at the front end, but it'll save you a lot of time at the back end when you have to go through everything and you have it all done. So I love, I love that advice. One more question, uh, for everybody. What's an HQP? Oh, highly qualified personnel. So students love it. Hey, you know what? I think we should change the name from students to highly qualified personnel. That makes me feel a lot better. I'm going to tell you that right there, Melissa, this has been amazing, so helpful. Um, and really just kind of almost like, uh, being transparent yourself in terms of what goes into a project and managing a project.

1:43:26 That people may not know whether you're just starting off as a, as an ocean leader and managing projects or getting projects, but also what to anticipate after you get that grant. I think that's really important. So thank you so much for spending the time with us today and giving us that advice. And of course, you know, Melissa and we have, we have, uh, Kirsty and now Cheryl on, on the, uh, on the team to help manage those grants. So of course, if people want to know more, uh, they can go to our website, uh, and I'll put the link in the show notes and they can find out, just have a conversation of, you know, how we can work together and help your ocean project succeed, uh, in the way that we do for many other people. So, uh, let's say thank you so much again.

1:44:09 We really appreciate it. And we'll talk to you next time. Sounds good. Thank you, Melissa, for dropping such amazing knowledge on project management. This is something that like, this doesn't happen often, right? We don't have these types of conversations on podcasts and this is what we wanted to do. We wanted to kind of open up that forum to say, Hey, this is what it's like to manage a project, right? As an ocean leader, this is what we do. This is how it's done. This is what not to do, right? And these are the mistakes that people make. It happens. As, as Melissa said, we get delays. Uh, you know, there's, there's a weather problems. If you're going out on a research vessel, there's problems with the research vessels sometimes. And so we want to make sure all that security and you want to make sure you have that wonderful relationship with the funder. That's a must, right?

1:44:53 To, you've built up that relationship to get the funding and to inquire about what it takes to get that funding. And now you want to get that funding again after that project. And you want to maintain that communication. You want it basically to say, Hey, working with me and my organization, whatever sector you're part of for-profit, nonprofit academic is a great experience. You're going to love it. We're going to have great conversations. We're going to be transparent if things change, we are going to do what's best for you and your organization that's funding us so that we can build that relationship so that we can do more projects together and change the world and change the ocean one project at a time. And that's, I think is an important part, but it doesn't get talked about. If we don't talk about it, we all do it in different ways. If we don't, if we all do it in different ways, we can't share our successes. And this is what Melissa came to do is to share what could be successful and how to be successful in managing a project. I love it. So thank you again, Melissa. Thank you for listening.

1:45:48 If you are new to this podcast, this is just, this is episode three. We just released it. We released an episode every other week. We are talking to ocean leaders, to you who want to do better for the ocean, have a positive impact for the ocean. And you just maybe need that advice or you want to hear how other people are talking about projects. This is what we're here to do. If you want to talk to us about working with us in the future, please go to our website. I'll put the link in the show notes. Go to contact us. You can go through our wayfinder. You can just directly, and you can have a meeting and we can just discuss what your project is that you'd like to do and maybe how we can help and put you in the right direction and in touch with the right people. I want to thank you so much for listening and all the support. Please share this with other ocean leaders. We'd love to just kind of spread the news and just have that open dialogue through this podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm your host, Angelo, and you've been listening to the Ocean Leaders podcast, Pisces podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. Have a great day and happy conservation.