How Ocean Scientists Can Talk About Their Research So People Actually Care

0:00 Are you an ocean scientist who wants to talk more about your work to people outside the science world and you just don't know exactly where to start? This episode of the Ocean Leaders Podcast is that one for you. You're gonna want to listen to this because I have on one of my colleagues from Pisces Oceans, Kirsty Burnett, here to talk about our our our our I guess it was our journey, our hero's journey, let's just call it a little bit of teaser. in science communication and how we learned that that science communication can be a very powerful tool in getting people to really not only just love the ocean because they probably already love the ocean, but understand the issues that it's facing and how to protect it a little bit better. And we're gonna talk about that today because it's something that's needed. You know, Kirsi and I we just finished doing a ~ workshop with the European Elasma Brank Association on where she led the workshop on storytelling.

0:55 it's a storytelling workshop that we do for scientists. And a lot of scientists, when they're in there, they're loving the the the hey, I I like really like this way of flipping the narrative to and the the you know, looking at the hero's journey to talk about my science and how to make it more appealing to my audience and that different audiences will have different interests and I should curtail my story to those interests. And I think having that conversation among two scientists who became science communicators is really important for you who is maybe l trying to figure that out and trying to become more of a of a science communicator, whether it's on a platform, on a social media platform, or whether it's just to your family and friends and maybe your local school or local community, wherever that might be, or in Kirsi's case, a museum though where she does talks on on sharks in the ocean.

1:44 A lot of different avenues to do science communication. And it's not just for the general public. It could be for policymakers. It could be ~ other like political ~ members, you know, repres representatives, elected representatives, it could be a bunch of different people. And I think that's important to understand that there are different audiences and ways you connect with different audiences. And so that's what we talk about today on today's episode. So let's get into it. ~ and and before we do though, this is a new podcast. We're talking to scientists, ocean conservationists, people who want to have a positive impact on the ocean and they have projects that do so. So if you know someone who might benefit from this podcast, Just flip this podcast over to them and so they can listen to it so they can benefit as well. That's how we grow.

2:28 It's how we get the community involved in more science communication. That's what we want to do here on the Ocean Leaders podcast. And so we appreciate the follow as well as sharing the episode so that more people can get to know it. So here is Kirsty and I talking about how we got into science communication and how important it is and some of the little tips that we have to get started so that you can talk more about your science. Enjoy, and I'll talk to you after. Hey Kirsty, welcome back to the Ocean Leaders Podcast. Are you ready to have a fun conversation on why more scientists should be doing science communication? Yeah, absolutely. Let's dive into it. Let's do it. I can't wait. This is gonna be a lot of fun. And like I said, this is gonna be a conversation. Christy, you and I work together.

3:08 We'll get you people, we'll get you familiarized with the people here and people familiarized with you in just a second. But we're gonna have a conversation. We're colleagues at Pisces Oceans and ~ we we're both scientists. That's our that's our background, and we both have kind of turned into science communicators in one way or another. And so we're gonna talk kind of talk about like our origin story of how we decided to Get into science communication and then we're gonna talk about some of the barriers that have stopped us or kind of pushed us back in terms of like maybe we shouldn't be talking about this, or maybe I'm not too comfortable with doing like social media or anything like that. So we're gonna have all that conversation. I can't wait to do that. Kirsty, before we do that, why don't you just let and remind people because you've been on this podcast again before, but why don't you just remind people of who you are and what you do?

3:53 Sure, yeah. ~ so my name is Kirsty. I am an ocean science manager here at Pisces Oceans. I've been with the company for a year and a half now. my background is in marine biology, so I have had the best time in the past year and a half merging my background in marine sciences with all of the great consulting work we get to do to help ocean leaders and other Ocean projects succeed through science, strategy, and storytelling. So yeah, that's a little bit about me. There we go. I love it. I love it. And and you know, I think it's it's kind of interesting because you know you you and I have known each other for about six months or so since I since I started here.

4:39 And and we get along really great. We have great conversations around like being scientists and then getting into communication and how that all works. We have like an understanding of like sort of where we began. And so I I can't wait to to dive into your to that origin story. But a lot of the times, you know, when people talk about Science, we don't talk about science. We talk it to each other. We, you know, and we talk it within our own academic circles, our own science and conservation circles. But a lot of times we don't talk outside. And there are reasons for that. We can go into that today. But today, like it's gonna be a lot of fun. We're gonna get to know a little bit about your origin story going into science communication. So let's let's start there. ~ you know, you are a scientist, you know, you have a master's degree, you've worked in between that.

5:22 So why don't you just kind of give us a little breakdown, a little brief breakdown of how all how all that happened and and what drove you to be in science. Yeah, absolutely. So I am a scientist by trade. So I've completed both my bachelor's and my master's degree in marine biology. And it's really funny now that that we're talking about storytelling and communicating, it's just ringing a bell right now that I think one of the reasons I actually got into science in the first place was ~ through the documentary Shark Water, which Of course, is just solely storytelling, Yes. Yep. right? So ~ it's storytelling that inspired me to become a scientist. That's kind of funny, just resonating on this a little bit.

6:04 But ~ yeah, so I I come from a background ~ of MRAD, essentially. So learning how to write things in a very formal structure: introduction, Mm-hmm. methods, results, discussion. ~ and every scientist has that, has that training. Does that for publication purposes and it is how science succeeds in academia? But Mm-hmm. how do we push everything that we're learning or discovering past academia and introduce that to a broader array of people? So policymakers who could maybe push through the changes that we're envisioning when we're doing this research, or funders who could help pay for us to do extensions of this research, or Even just the general public, because we found something so cool.

6:55 We want everybody to know. But all those audiences are not gonna resonate with our our very scientific introduction methods, results, discussion. It's very dry. Yeah. And and not only dry, but it's like we've been ~ ~ critiqued so many like so many times throughout our academic careers on how to write that that article, right? And how to write in Yeah. a way that other scientists will not only understand, but also if you don't write that way, you are you know, vilified, you know, in terms of like, that person doesn't write like in a in a good science way. I remember my doing my master's degree, my professor would just get on me and on me about like how to write in that in that specific format about fact first and emotions later.

7:45 Whereas like when it's storytelling, it's emotions first. And and obviously the facts Yeah. come into it, but it is a way of of of just a different way of of telling a story when you're doing it from a science perspective compared to doing it from I guess more of an emotional perspective to kind of bring in people who are not trained in in that scientific type of language, I guess, right? And yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And ~ I think you're hitting on the the nail on the head here. I it's it's essential because if you're writing a sway, it's to make sure that your research is reproducible. But ~ if I am going to the government of Cabo Verde, which this is a real life example, if I'm going to the government of Cabo Verde and I'm saying we want to use our background in this research to apply these methods.

8:34 In your local waters to produce these results. A lot of that is gonna go right over their head. They're government officials, they're not marine biologists, or they're often not marine biologists, I should say. So it's Mm-hmm. how do we formulate everything that we know to be true in a way that that's gonna hit them in the heart or in the gut, like you're saying, that is Mm-hmm. gonna hit them in the emotions to make them want to come into their country to do this research because we've just convinced them that. Doing this is going to help them succeed. So it's ~ it's turning the story around. It's not about me, me, me, let me do my research. It's how can I help you succeed Yeah.

9:17 through what I know to be true or through the methods that I know that I can apply. So it's really just, yeah, making it relatable. Yeah. Well and when you and when when you meant when you mentioned policy, it it kind of brought me back because I remember in two interviews, I had to write a policy brief as part of the interview. One was for Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the other one was for a nonprofit organization. And That was the first time like I I had s the first time I wrote it like was for the nonprofit and I had never written a policy brief. So I had to look it up and like look at the way it's done and it has to be succinct and it has to get to the point right away and all that kind of stuff. Where which is different than from science, even though you're still working on facts.

9:58 It's still different in the way you develop, Right. you know, the the intro, like short. It's a one page or kind of thing. The second time I did Mm-hmm. it, I'm like, I did a a much better job, you know, being able doing it before it. But it takes a while to get used to that language and how to get your point across. And then if you are working for like a nonprofit, even more so because if it's in person, you may have twenty to thirty seconds to get your point across quickly, right? With that Yeah. minister or whoever you're speaking to, because they have to, you know, they're off to something else and they have to go they have to go and they don't really want to listen to you right now because they got other things on your mind. So you have to make it impactful and you have to like get their attention and you have to do it in a way that they'll understand and not be annoying to them.

10:42 you know and Yeah. I'm sure so with certain politicians it's annoying anyways, but you know, with certain ones they want to listen, you got to get that that point across. And but again, it's the different languages and the different writing styles and the different communication styles that hit different types of professionals, whether it's policy, whether it's science, whether ~ it's marketing and whether it's a general public type of view where you're trying to get, you know, support for writing a petition or, you know, submitting a a comment for a public inquiry or things like that, which we're seeing a lot these days ~ in that type of writing. So it's a matter of like how do we get people ready for that and and and how do you inform people based off of that?

11:26 Cause have to talk about the project in in different ways. And I think that's a an interesting way of of putting like this into it. So I guess a question for you, Chrissy, when you first start like you obviously you you were scientist first as you as you grew up in that that type of environment. When did science communication really start to become a big thing? Was it when you joined Pisces or did you have that idea beforehand? Cause you did some diving too in the Caribbean, where I'm sure you talked a lot about science. Mm. So where did that like science communication, whether you knew it or not, came through? Yeah, that's interesting that you you specify whether I knew it or not. Because I think looking back on it, I was doing science communication without knowing that I was doing science communication.

12:13 And ~ yeah, after graduating with my bachelor's ~ from Dalhousie in 2015, I believe now. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. So I did end up moving to the Caribbean for a bit and working as a dive master and started teaching a shark awareness dive course there. And absolutely that involved communicating science to a very general audience, a diving community. So how do I speak about sharks in a way that the diving community is going to care? So Mm-hmm. it was a lot of ~ Behavioral facts like this is what you can expect when you're underwater with the sharks. These are the type of actions you should and should not do while you're under the water.

12:58 And I think that really came down to knowing my audience. And that was very subconsciously happening in the background. I didn't know that I was choosing a target audience to tell the story of shark Of course. science, but that was what was happening behind the scenes. ~ so it started very early and then ~ like I was talking about before, trying to get permits to do work in other countries and speaking to policymakers. So there's a different audience. I have to speak to government officials. Mm-hmm. From different countries, So how do I change? Yeah. too. Not that you're you like not like a Canadian official. You're looking at someone in Cabo Verde, right? Or or someone, you Exactly. know, you're speaking to a diver who's probably coming from a lot of different places because you were was it Saint Martin?

13:42 Was that where you were? Yeah. It was same rating, yes. So like you're in that area. That's where people are coming from all from the world, you know, because you got that European influence as well, plus the North American influence. So you're dealing with different Cultural backgrounds, languages, and then you're dealing with different ways government works in in in like an island community compared to like somewhere like Canada. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very interesting. It's interesting to think back on it now and knowing that that was what I was doing in the background is making sure I was tailoring the science to the audience. And it's ~ in the work that we do with Pisces when we're helping others develop their narratives, whether it be for you know communication strategies or or during some science communications workshops that we've been putting on, that's one of the first things that of telling everyone is to know your audience.

14:34 ~ Mm-hmm. and your target audience is going to be the hero of your story. So just like there are rules when ~ writing a scientific paper following the MRAD structure, there are actually rules to to doing storytelling successfully as well. So it's been really interesting to apply what I've subconsciously been doing for years now at Pisces, ~ but in a much more structured way. So I've Really been enjoying my journey doing that here. Yeah, because I was gonna ask you, because I was like, you know, you you speak you're speaking to the different people as you're growing in this industry and you know, d divers, like you know, tourists compared to policymakers.

15:17 Did you know to switch up the language for both? Like and and how did you before knowing the structure to let's say, how did you do that? Like how did you go and say, okay. I'm talking to a government official right now, so I'm gonna have to really hit h home on these points. Or I'm talking to a diver from France or from Canada or from the US, and even within those countries you have different kind of people. How am I going to approach like telling about sharks? You know? Yeah, well, I mean, before, you know, joining Pisces and following more structured storytelling to make sure the work that we're doing alongside our our partners and our clients is the most successful it can be.

16:04 ~ I guess it only just came from trial and error because you know, if I'm was telling divers about sharks and it wasn't landing with them, well you can immediately see it on their faces. You could see if Right. someone is is zoning out or ignoring you or You know, not following the instructions that you said they should follow underwater because you know you've told them a story about sharks and how to dive with them, but it just didn't resonate. Right. so it comes with practice like anything else. And ~ for talking to policymakers, if they are giving pushback on something that I've submitted in an application, well then I didn't tell them either clearly or in a way that Right.

16:49 made them feel connected to it. So, you know, just going back, iterating on it, trying again. Yeah. A lot of trial and error. so I I think that's how I got through it without knowing Yeah. the actual structures behind storytelling. Yeah. And and like if you can go back at that time with the divers, w how did you what did you find really worked with them? Like on an average base? I know they're all different, but on an average basis, like what did you find the tactics that worked for them? Well, it was a little bit easier with the divers because there was already something that connected us all, and it was a love of diving. So, Right. you know, really playing on that and ~ communicating about sharks that they're specifically going to see on their dive. So not just talking about sharks on a broad level, but more specific Mm-hmm.

17:44 so they can get excited about some of the ones that they're actually gonna see on their dive. It makes it more relevant and more immediately meaningful to them. I think that was that was really just it, like having that common connection, knowing your audience. Yeah. So I was a diver, they're a diver. So I know my own fears when diving and I can connect with Mm-hmm. somebody else's own fears and concerns and try and mitigate those through storytelling, for example. And yeah. Okay. Yeah, interesting. And then for the Cabo Verde government, like that must be a a lot. What was important like what did you connect with that was important to them about the shark research that your team was doing at that time?

18:30 Yeah, so with them, their communities are what's most important to them. So we are coming in as researchers from more Western societies, asking to do research in their communities ~ on species that are in their waters. And I think the key there was being able to kind of tailor the story and tailor our research even to include the community more. And so it was building more connections with the community and going back to the government and being like, okay, we're gonna work with this person, this person, and this person, we're gonna go in and we're gonna talk to the fishers before we do any kind of work to make sure that what we're doing Yeah.

19:21 either can help them or doesn't affect them in any kind of negative way. And I think just understanding what was most important to them was community and then tailoring our research in such a way that would benefit the community, that's Mm-hmm. that's how we got their trust and their support. And Yeah. yeah. It's it's interesting because like, you know, we're talking a lot about the different audiences that were that you were communicating with. So you're looking at divers, which is sort of a a more general audience in a way. They had the diving Hm. as a common ~ kind of sort of like a commonality between among them and and among yourself. But with the with the government, it was more about okay, how do we make sure that we can not only continue to get funding but permits and everything like that to do the research and they're more focused on their community, which obviously makes a lot of makes a lot of sense.

20:16 ~ and so we we talk a lot about ~ like different audiences for me a lot of the time was to get out away from like other science circles and conservation circles Mm-hmm. to make more people aware so I was thinking like the average person. Yes. Mm-hmm. When I first came out I was like I'm going to speak to whoever I can speak to. You know, like whoever Mm-hmm. wants to listen, if you're interested in the ocean, you want to find out, that's why you that's why you I do I do what I do. ~ it's it's it's changed since then as you start to realize who your audience is. but it's a very different like style of of of speaking, you know, in terms of just its regular conversation.

20:58 So I always when I do my podcast, I'm always I'm like how to protect the ocean. I'm like, how can how would I speak to my wife about this or my brother about this or my Yeah. mother about this? And And and be able to speak to that. Do you have you taken on that same sense, depending on who you like, if you're talking to family members or friends or anything like that about questions they may have for you, which I'm sure you have a lot of people ask questions about the ocean and stuff? And I mean, you do you know work with sharks a lot. Your husband Manu works with sharks a lot. And and so there's a lot of of good questions, I'm sure, around there and and and whatnot. But do you have you kind of found that it's like a very different type of of communication in that respect and you're a little bit more relaxed when you talk in that in that type type of tone and and in those types of situations.

21:46 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's yeah, it's funny that you say that. So in in my household, in my personal life, I guess it is very science, science, science, because my husband and I both come from a science background. So even in our more relaxed conversations, Yeah, dinner conversations are about science papers. I think even then we're still talking very high level science. Ha ha ha. ~ but yeah, ~ I think What I found most interesting is when you learn how to communicate your story to an audience that doesn't know or understand the topic on the same level that you do.

22:27 You realize how interesting it is when you're you're hitting those key points that are resonating with them, like either in the gut or in the heart. And ~ maybe it's a little bit easier with sharks because sharks are very charismatic and the stories surrounding Yeah. them are always awe-inspiring. So Yeah. I guess I have a leg up on that and communicating because Yeah. everybody likes hearing about sharks. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, but ~ well, maybe a good example is I watched a documentary the other day on soil and that's not my background at all and maybe you would immediately think soil that sounds extraordinarily boring.

23:09 And Yeah. then when they when they brought up all these points about how soil literally connects us all through like food and agriculture and and health of the ecosystem, that made soil important to me. Mm-hmm. And therefore it made what they were trying to say interesting. And I think if you can make a topic important to the person that you're talking to, Mm-hmm. they will find it interesting. You will have Yeah. their attention. Yeah. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I I think, you know, I a lot of people when they're when they're scientists have trouble, especially ocean scientists. We have trouble like going out to public to to to talk, whether it's on social media or somewhere else, like in large halls and and things like that.

23:58 Public speaking can be a little difficult. But, you know, a lot of the times we talk to our family about about sharks or whatever our specialty is or just You know, trying to field questions that are stuff I never even thought about that I've had questions, Yeah. you know, about of like, yeah, I never actually thought about that. And and you try and answer the questions as best as possible from the knowledge that you know. Now you gotta remember, like a lot of times when I talk to people, I was like, yeah, I I like I can answer this. I know this as a as a matter of fact, but other people may not know this because I grew up around it, you know, in in Right. in science and and studying it and so forth. And I think sometimes you just The simpler answer the better because a lot of people that's what they want to hear.

24:40 ~ but I find when we start to think about speaking to a broader audience, you know, some of us like I'm not sure. Mm. Have you ever spoken to a school? Like have you ever been asked like a elementary school or a high school? yes, yeah, ~ museums, like local museums I've spoken to. cool. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Cool. I've had a lot of you know, I know a lot of teachers, so they've asked me to come out and I've I've spoken for like high school students and Mm-hmm. elementary school, kindergarten, all that kind of stuff, which is always fun, right? It's it's and it gets a little bit more of a broader audience because you're speaking to, you Yeah. know, a lot, a lot more different people and it's a little bit larger groups, sometimes like twenty, thirty, depending on on the size of of the classes and so forth.

25:24 And And I think for even then that's okay because they feel comfortable, like like people control the narrative. I think on bigger levels, though, or like when you're speaking to sort of the void of the internet, it can get Mm-hmm. a little bit more intimidating. And and I have to ask Chrissy, like like ~ and and it doesn't matter if it's yes or no, like there's no judgment here, but do you talk about su your science or the work that you're doing, ~ you know, especially with sharks and stuff like that, on your social media? Or do are first of all. Do you have social media? And then if so, Yeah. you know, do you talk do you talk about that either that's dedicated or you have a channel dedicated or is it just more of like as a matter of fact, like, hey, this is a ~ bread I just released or something like that.

26:05 Yeah, totally. So, ~ I don't have any dedicated channel to sharks per se, but most of the things that I'm speaking about on my social medias, which it's really only LinkedIn and Instagram, ~ are all nature related, predominantly ocean related, because this is what I know and what I love. Yeah. ~ and I do find in particular on LinkedIn, if I'm writing a post And I keep it very broad, like for a general audience. I'm not getting as much interaction with that post as if I were Hmm. to speak to a targeted audience or to ~ address a specific concern that a specific group of people might have.

26:51 And I think it's because it's harder to hit to hit the heart or hit the gut of people when you're speaking to them broadly. Mm. ~ more so than when you're speaking to specific audience or or you know your target audience. Yeah. Yeah, or sometimes you can know like if a if a specific topic will hit big, right? Yeah. New species or new information on species or I mean you live in you live in Nova Scotia. There's a big I'm not sure if you've heard apparently great whites are in Nova Scotia, off the coast of Nova What? Scotia. Not sure. ~ but that's like that's big news. Have you ever addressed that or talked about that or posted about that on on your on your personal social media?

27:34 Yeah. ~ great white sharks, not so much, if I'm being honest, because it's a very polarizing topic here in Nova Scotia. So obviously, from a science perspective, it's awesome that they're here in Nova Scotia. They are ~ East Coast Canada's only protected shark species. So they're listed on the Species at Risk Act and protected under Mm-hmm. the Species at Risk Act on the East Coast of Canada. And If their populations weren't increasing, that would be a problem, given that, given that level of protection that they have. ~ so it's really good that we're seeing increased numbers, of course. That brings along with it some concern from the, you know, the community of people that use the ocean for leisure, For sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

28:20 you know, the diving community, the surfing community, for example. So I don't typically talk about them on my social media, if I'm being honest, because I don't want to to be come across polarizing in any way. ~ I do like to address feel-good stories though on my on my social media. Okay. Can you talk about like an example? Yeah, yeah, I feel like that that's the ones that renon resonate with the general audience. Resonate? Yeah. Can you talk about can you give us an example? Like I know you love your blue sharks. Do you have a blue shark example or do have another example? Yeah, so some of the work that we do for Dalhousie University, ~ I helped teach a summer course there, the biology and conservation of sharks geets and race summer course.

29:07 And so we've done ~ blue shark tagging in the past through that course and posting about that ~ along with pictures of the sharks in their natural environment and they're like a blue shark is just the most beautiful, you know. puppy like shark that you could possibly post. so it doesn't come across as quote unquote scary as a a great white mite. And so I think people see these sharks and they get to learn a little bit about how not all sharks are scary. Some of them are well s much smaller than a white shark, are not a threat to us. ~ They get to see cute pictures, they get to see the success stories from our tagging and our releasing.

29:56 I think one of the ones that did really well for me was ~ I can't remember the year, but the song Roxanne was playing when we were tagging and fishing for sharks to tag, and we caught a shark, tagged her, released her, we named her Roxanne, because that's what was playing in the background. Yeah. Love it. Love it. And two weeks later, yeah. And two weeks later, ~ another group who was out also tagging Blue Sharks caught her also while the song Roxanne was playing. And I just think that is, I mean, it's the world's largest coincidence, but it really connected with people because it kind of anthropomorphized the animal in a way. Like, this shark likes the song Roxanne.

30:41 She's just Ha ha ha. like me. And I think that really hit a broad audience because who wouldn't get a good giggle out of that? And yeah. yeah, for sure. Well, I'll tell you, you know, ~ a mutual kind of friend of ours, Dav David Ebert, he, you know, is a lost shark guy and he studies he finds and describes sharks all the time or he knows of new species. And when he posts new species, he could just post the the the the picture and maybe maybe the flag of where it was caught and stuff like that, just like that. And it won't do as well unless he puts a musical number behind it. And he's a classic rock kind of guy, That's funny. Okay.

31:22 right? And so he'll put like he'll try and put something that kind of fits the shark or what he thinks fits the shark. And it does a lot, it does a lot better because it's a little bit more entertaining. And people are like, I know this song. I yeah. And they they start, and he has like a bunch of, you know, different it's like a little video, but it's like of of different pictures and stuff. And people are like, yeah, like this is this is kind of cool. And and so I think like it it makes it if you can make it entertaining, obviously it it makes it easier because you're You're hitting on that emotional heartstrings, right? Of of of that person. So I love that. I love that that type of story. ~ but I like I have to admit, like, you know, I remember when I first started to post, there were like little barriers that that happened.

32:02 When I first started, like I remember my advisor telling me like years before, it's like, be very careful if you do science communication, because you know, traditionally it was through interviews through ~ with journalists. And sometimes they would manipulate what was said to make it look wrong. Yes. And and that's not what the person wanted to depict. It's different now because I feel like we have our own, it's it's democratized a little bit with social media. You can the the actual scientists can kind of put out whether they were whether their stuff was manipulated another piece and they can put it out as like, no, I didn't say this. I, you know, this is what I said. Or they can just do it themselves on their own channels.

32:43 And we've seen a lot of scientists come out with social media and actually have pretty much careers out of being a content creator, like a science content creator. Yeah, yeah. And it's it's pretty incredible to see the whole gambit from ocean all the way to terrestrial. ~ did you have any hesitation when you first started to post on on Instagram or even LinkedIn, you know, of of the science that you were doing? Yeah, absolutely. And I it stems from what you're saying. ~ interviews done with media who have ~ spun what I was saying so that they could tell their story. ~ but now that I've gotten more into the structure of storytelling and what goes behind it, I do feel more comfortable posting now because there are ways to mitigate that.

33:30 It's just about understanding how to structure your research or whatever point you're trying to get across in such a way that doesn't leave room for interpretation. So there's still a way to tell your science paper ~ in a way that is a story that is going to appeal to people, but still gets across all of the same facts that you've gotten across in your paper. And I think when you start to understand that it's more flipping the narrative, like we've been saying, knowing your target audience and ~ knowing what your target audience wants as well. Mm-hmm. And then flipping the narrative to follow that storyline while also Mm-hmm.

34:13 getting across all your facts, that's that's the way to do it. Cause you still can keep in everything that you want to communicate, but in a way that is more interesting to a general audience. Yeah, I think I think you're right too. And I think you kind of mentioned something with flipping the narrative. ~ can Mm-hmm. you just explain that a little bit more of what that is? Yeah, so I mean I'll introduce it similarly to how ~ we've been introducing it in the ~ science communication storytelling workshops we've been doing. So there's this narrative called the hero's journey, and I think most people don't realize that they know it, but in fact everybody does know it because it's the typical n ~ narrative that every single box office hit follows from Star Wars to Lord of the Rings to Harry Potter.

35:03 And it's essentially that a hero has a problem and identifies a guide who helps them on their journey to solve the problem and to avoid failure. So your hero, when you're telling your story, is your target audience. So when you start from point A of a hero's journey and you imagine your audience as your hero, and then you imagine: okay, the problem of my audience is this. And then you are the guide giving them a tool to avoid failure or to give them a solution to said problem. That's how you can flip the narrative on. And it's not, hey, I wanted to answer this question and created this method, and these are my results. It's Right.

35:49 the hero going through a journey. ~ And that's Yeah. what flipping the narrative is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's it's it's an important aspect to learn as a scientist because I think as a scientist, you have an idea of what your question was and what you were trying to prove. And now you're telling people what you were trying to do, which I don't think is a terrible thing, but you have to almost if you want somebody to really, you know, bite sink their teeth into it, it's better to put in a perspective that they'll understand something that that matters to them. You know, so if if they like sharks, Yeah, absolutely. you can say, this is your favorite shark. We just did a study on this and, you know, and d and talk it through that way. Or if you're, you know, a fisher, you can talk more about like if you're or if your audience is is a fishing audience, then you're talking more about from a fisher's perspective to kind of put yourself in their position to be like, what is going to be interesting to them?

36:36 You know, I'm not gonna talk about hockey Exactly. Yes. to a basketball fan because they're not gonna know anything about hockey, right? They're gonna know more about basketball. So it's kind of like a you know a different way. It's like almost like a different language of s of speaking to somebody if you're not hitting what's important to them. And I think a lot of times flipping that narrative to put them in this in the hero seat and and understanding Yeah. why it's important to them is is is so great. Now of course you and I didn't know anything about that when we first first started doing this type of of of work, No, no. right? We're just like I'm just gonna talk about science. It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be about the ocean. It's gonna be It's gonna be fun. Now, once you learnt that part, ~ how did you find like communicating?

37:18 Did you find it easier once you learned sort of like the the the structure of say the hero's journey, flipping the narrative, all that kind of stuff? Mm-hmm. ~ I wouldn't necessarily say easier because it's still a skill. ~ but Yeah. I will say more successful in communicating and and getting Right. Right. my messages across. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I and I me too. I find like when I first started doing it, I was I was trying to, you know, follow some people. There there aren't a lot of s there aren't a lot of like professionals that can come that come out as science communicators to help others. You know, we we have a few. Obviously Pisces try is is doing that as is you know, we're doing that now. but ~ you know, Randy Olson was probably sort of sort of the OG of of doing that type and and Yeah.

38:06 teaching people about that science community. Not that he's old by any means, Absolutely. but you know, he's he's teaching, writing books and and housing having a podcast. And he works with a lot of different government departments and and groups to to teach them about the the you know the the and ~ but there for the ABT sort of process and like Yeah, yeah. actual storytelling frameworks and structures so that people can understand. ~ and that's kind of like what we're doing too, because you and I see the importance of science communication and what that can do and what that has done for a lot of people, ~ not only for their own careers, but also to get people to to understand and and protect the ocean ~ in in a a more in an easier way. ~ and I've seen more and more science since I started, I've seen a lot more science communicators out there on a lot of different platforms, whether it's a public platform like TikTok, Instagram, newsletters, LinkedIn, Facebook or or what have you, or they do speeches and and talks in front of classrooms and businesses and and and things like that to help get people interested and help, you know, hit that like flip that narrative and and get them and be like, this is why, this is why it's an important to you.

39:20 Do you find like Now is an easier time. Like as if you were a scientist and you weren't in the position that you're in now, because obviously we're biased now in terms of science communication, Yeah. but do you find it easier now to talk about science than it was even five or ten years ago? Absolutely. And I think it's every scientist has probably felt that when they're trying to talk to someone about their work and they feel like they're talking to a wall. And that's because Mm-hmm. when you're communicating, if someone isn't resonating with what you're saying or even understanding it, then you're not communicating it well, to be honest. Yeah. Scientists are very good at communicating to other scientists, Mm-hmm.

40:03 but often not good talking about their work to anyone else. ~ Yeah. Yeah, but I do find, you know, just stepping back from the facts, like the nitty-gritty numbers, for example, or and this and that, and this, Right. and so on, and so on, and and following the and but therefore ~ narrative Mm-hmm. that you're saying, and really, you know, highlighting at a high level why what you're doing matters. Mm-hmm. that's where it started to become easier to communicate because when you communicate why it matters, people start to care.

40:46 Yeah, it's like the so what kind of thing in marketing, right? It's like why so what? Like you're talking about this, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. but why does it matter to me? Why do I need to to to learn about it? And I think ~ there's a lot of barriers, I think, for for a lot of scientists to start talking about their science. One is like just even the just the beginning of doing it, like just to actually get into the process of doing it. What would you recommend for people in terms of how should they just start talking about their their science? Who should they start? to talk to. I mean, I we're not we're not expecting people to have Instagram accounts and just dedicated to those accounts to doing that kind of stuff, but who would you recommend that how how would you recommend that they start?

41:27 Yeah, I think the easiest way is to just talk with friends and family about your work. And if you're speaking with them and they're understanding what you're saying and understanding what your research is, then you're already one step closer to having a good story around your research. ~ and then when Yeah. you identify the so what, like you just said, I think that's where really the story can fully formulate. Like it doesn't matter if I go out and say blue sharks are overfished, so what? Yeah. How does that affect me? Why why sh yeah, why should whoever you're speaking to care that blue sharks are overfished? When Yeah. you can identify that for each of your target audiences, for whomever you're talking to, that's Yeah.

42:10 when you've succeeded. Yeah, 100%. I agree. And and I I think almost I would even go one step further. And if somebody if you're gonna talk to somebody or if they have questions, like what are you interested in? You know, it's like it's like I can tell you about my research and that's fine. It may not matter to you as much, so I don't mind talking about it. but like what are you interested in? Or try to make your research more appealing to the person you're talking to. Yes. Right. So see, like if you have if you're talking about sharks being overfished, which is an important issue, try and like come up with an analogy that would that would kind of flip the narrative to say, Hey, this is why it's important to you, mom, or to you, brother, or to you, sister, or whoever, and say, Yeah. Yeah.

42:54 Yeah, like this is you know, this is it's like losing something, or it's like, you know, imagine you didn't have Starbucks all of a sudden. You know, that's kind of like the the ability. That's this is my Yeah. my girls. That's how they think. So, you know, it's, it's ~ it I think it it's a hard, it's a hard exercise at the beginning, but once you start to think in those, in that way, I think it's I think it's really good. And the other thing I would say too is like the ABT structure is the and but therefore structure. Practice Absolutely. putting your research in that. Like write it out a coup a Yeah. number of different times, rehearse it. So when people ask you, you can kind of come up with that. You'll be surprised at how many people will be interested in that in that type of structure in your story afterwards.

43:35 Absolutely. Yeah. And for everyone listening, the therefore is the so what in this situation. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important. It's like you come up with the like it's a what is it? It's basically the problem, right? This is the or or Yeah. like here's the situation, but this is what's happening like so here. And the problem, but this is Yeah. And the problem, but and then yeah. what can be done and therefore save the world or whatever you want your outcome Yeah. Save the world. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. to be. Yeah. Exactly. And I think it's it's a tough thing. I remember for the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, on my intros, I did, I did the ABT. And it took me so long to kind of figure out the intros and to kind of rehearse them in a way that sounded like I wasn't reading it just to sound like so you had to rehearse it and rehearse it and rehearse it.

44:23 When you're doing one study, it's easier to do than you practice like your elevator pitch. You practice it with everybody. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and your And I think it's I think it's important. ABT can become your elevator pitch. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, 100%. 100%. And I think, look, I I think just to get started is more of just the practice. And yes, you'll probably sound uncomfortable or you'll feel uncomfortable when you first say it the first couple of times. But the idea is if you're listening to this podcast and you want to start talking more about your science, try these methods. Just try speaking to family and friends about it. Even just try and say, Hey, I'm gonna, I want to start talking about my science more. Can I try this on you? Let them let them hear all your mistakes and then as you get better and better better and under they they'll be better understanding you then you can try it with more people and you can go forward and and and do it that way.

45:08 Speak to schools, all that kind of stuff. Absolutely, yeah. They're always looking for volunteers to talk about you know marine science and and stuff like that. And so if you have the time it's always a a great way to do this. But Christy like final words Yeah. like what would your final advice be for people who are who's listening to this like the scientist who's like Sure, yeah. Mm-hmm. I want to talk about ocean science and concentration in my work. Mm-hmm. ~ so we've talked about these narrative frameworks and how it's a skill that needs to be practiced, but I would say the takeaway should be that you shouldn't be scared to dive into it because as scientists we're all very good at following structure and storytelling methods, and these narrative methods are just new structures to learn and to practice.

45:49 Yeah. So, you know, as scientists, you've already ~ nailed the IMRD structure. So this is just your next challenge. And I Yeah. have full faith that if you can ~ confidently put together a scientific paper that you can confidently put together storytelling narratives. Absolutely. So, you know, try it. We can we know you can do it. It takes practice. So get that experience in as much as possible. And then just go out and do it for whatever platform or whether like, you know, ~ area where you feel comfortable in doing it. ~ and I think it's important. We need more science communication out there. We need more people talking about the science and conservation that's going on so that other people that are outside these circles can understand, you know, what we're talking about and and what needs to be done to make sure that we get.

46:37 A better, a better ocean, a better protected ocean. Kersi, thank you so much for joining us. It's it's been so Thank you. nice to have you back on. Looking forward to you coming on again. We'll have chat more science and science communication. ~ and and Kirsi just did ~ a storytelling workshop for the European ~ was it the European Elastic Association? Was that what it is? Yeah, at their conference. Yeah, yeah, yes. So and it went really well. People loved it. People love the flipping of the narrative. It's it was awesome. so thank you for doing that, Kirsty. And of course that you could if you guys are interested in doing a storytelling workshop, please let us know. You can contact us. We'll put contact information in the show notes and you can check it out. we'd love to to do a storytelling workshop for for your organization or your ~ lab or whoever that might be.

47:20 But thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Kirsty. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Andrew. Thank you, Kirsi, for joining us again on the Ocean Leisure Podcast. Can't wait to talk to you more about science and cont and conservation and communication and all that wonderful stuff. it's always great to be able to talk to a colleague who's kind of been through the same thing but in a different way, having the the experience of talking to scuba divers in the Caribbean who are on vacation about sharks, and then talking to ~ a policymaker or a decision maker in in the Cabo Verde government to get permits and to Have an understanding, have a better understanding or communicating a better understanding of what the project that she was doing with her teammates there in Cabo Verde with sharks.

48:02 Very interesting project. We'll probably have around to talk more about that, as well as her husband Manu, who is also involved in the project. And ~ it's just it's a wonderful story. And it's it's it's great to hear the different perspectives of how people communicate and then how we do it to audiences. I have the How to Protect the Ocean podcast that I've been running for over 11 years now. I also co host a Beyond Jaws podcast with Dr. David Ebert. I host this podcast. So podcasting is my platform that I love the most. I also have a ~ YouTube ~ show on on YouTube, a YouTube channel called Ocean Decoded, where I go live or I do long form videos and I do shorts as well. It's it's just different ways of of getting to different audiences. And I speak in in in different ways when I when I talked in on those on those episodes. But it's important to me to get that out there, and it's something I've dedicated my life to doing, to because I think it's a It's an important part of conservation.

48:52 And science is just the one aspect. And we have to be a little bit more flexible as scientists and who we speak to about the science and about the conservation. And we have to do it in ways that other people will understand and other people will get interested in. And we talked all about that with Kirsty today. And I'm very happy that we got to cover that. So if you have a question or you would like us to come in and do a storytelling workshop. We would love to be able to do that. just click the link in the show notes where you can get access to that ~ to that form and you we can we can have a discussion, we can have a meeting and discussion of what you would like out of that storytelling workshop. And that's it for today's, episode on the Ocean Leaders Podcast. I really appreciate your time and listening. Don't forget to share this with somebody that you think would benefit from this and getting more into science communication or even a science communicator that you know, ~ you can send this as well and see what their tips are.

49:41 ~ we'd love to hear about all about that. thanking you so much for joining us on this episode. I'm your host, Angela. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time in happy conservation.