Kristi Lee: Canadian True Crime at 200

Matt Cundill  0:00  
Christy, you're a citizen of the Commonwealth, born in New Zealand, educated in Australia. But how did you get to Canada?

Kristi Lee  0:08  
Well, that is a weird story. I never thought I would move country again, because there was also a stint in the UK between New Zealand and Australia. But I met the guy who was now my husband, and he told me that he had a five year plan to move to Canada because he was obsessed with hockey, ice hockey, specifically, he played field hockey in Australia, but got into into the NHL, and he's like, I've got to be over in North America, and Canada is the place to be. And then I was like, All right, well, we got together, and I just kind of merged in with his plan. So yeah, here we are. It wasn't my idea. It was his idea.

Matt Cundill  0:49  
So if he wanted to come to Canada to go and get himself closer to professional hockey, why would he not say choose Edmonton or Montreal? Why would he choose Toronto? He still hasn't accomplished his goal.

Kristi Lee  1:01  
Well, I don't think he wanted to become an NHL player, and he certainly would have, if he wanted to, but, but, well, we actually tossed up between Vancouver and Toronto, and we did a pre trip before we actually moved here, and we decided that Vancouver was too rainy and the cost of living was too high, so we decided to go for more snow and less rain in Toronto. Yeah, that decision panned out, but I definitely think that Vancouver is the more attractive looking place.

Matt Cundill  1:34  
It certainly shows well on postcards. Oh

Kristi Lee  1:37  
yeah, yeah, Toronto, not so much.

Matt Cundill  1:41  
You started your show in 2016 what podcasts were you listening to before you started your show?

Kristi Lee  1:47  
I was listening to True Crime podcasts exclusively. I was obsessed. And the podcasts that really inspired me to do mine were case file, which is a true crime podcast from Australia, but covers cases around the world, and it does a similar style. Well, obviously I kind of got inspiration from case file style, but it's basically a well researched kind of narrative essay that is recorded and sort of like an audio book, but not and I really liked that kind of style, because, you know, you can, you can bring in kind of social history and other aspects of it, and and really tell a kind of cohesive story and make it really immersive with kind of background music and that type of thing. And I really enjoyed the format, and because I had a background in writing, you know, and marketing communication, it made sense for me over a journalistic style podcast that relies on kind of interviews and conversations. So case file, another one was they walk among us from the UK, just any, any kind of indie True Crime podcast. I was just so inspired.

Matt Cundill  2:59  
So the hardest episode to do is always episode number one. And episode number one in your case, is the Paul Bernardo case, which is probably the most infamous of crime cases. There's a lot of layers to it. It's world famous. There are publication bands. That's a tough first episode.

Kristi Lee  3:19  
Well, the thing is, I didn't make the podcast for other people. I only made it for myself. It was a creative passion project. I just wanted to teach myself how to create a true crime podcast in the same style as the ones that I really enjoyed. So at that point, I wasn't thinking that all these people would be listening. It's just, I want to create this for myself, and so there wasn't a lot of kind of internal pressure to, you know, do this big kind of expose that 1000s of people would be listening to. So yeah, it wasn't so bad, but I did realize that it takes a lot. I'm like, all of this, and it's only 18 minutes long. And then I realized I released the first episode, I'm like, oh, there's going to be a second. I don't know when it's going to come up, because the first one took so long. It's, yeah, there was, there was a lot of kind of learning, a learning curve there. But yeah, if I, if I covered that case again, it would be a lot different, just because I've learned so much since then.

Matt Cundill  4:19  
So my first episode was about 18 minutes as well, and it took me about nine hours to do how long did it take for you to do yours?

Kristi Lee  4:28  
Oh, I can't remember. I can't remember because I was doing it every night after my kids went to bed, right? And I hadn't told anybody that I was doing the podcast. So there was no I wasn't under any pressure until I release that first episode, and then I'm like, Oh, I've got to get Part Two out. But it took a fair amount of time, because I was teaching myself how to edit audio at the same time. I'd never done that before, and that was a big skill that I wanted to learn. You know, I was really into audio, and I wanted to learn how to edit it. So that was kind of my my. My learning experience. I can't remember. It must have been a week a week, working every night after the kids were in bed.

Matt Cundill  5:08  
Do you remember what you used to do? That? Editing. Was it Audacity?

Kristi Lee  5:13  
Yeah, that's what everybody uses when they start out, because it's free. And I think, like, it's been many years since I used that, but I think it was, it was a good way to start, right? It teaches you the basics without making you over rely on kind of the automatic functions that it has. It really gets you to think about what you're actually doing with this audio. So it was good. It was good

Matt Cundill  5:41  
editing audio is not intuitive. Like I worked for many, many years in radio and didn't start to edit audio properly until after I started to do podcasting. I mean, listen, when I say edit audio, it used to be like splicing and cutting reel to reel tape and throwing up on the floor and pasting it together. But when it came to doing it on the computer, I'd moved up to management, where I had people to do that stuff, and then you realize that you're the manager of no one after a while, and you want to start a podcast, you're gonna have to learn how to edit, right?

Kristi Lee  6:12  
Well, I I don't know what it is, but I took to it. I just loved it. I enjoyed it so much. So it came naturally to me, what

Matt Cundill  6:21  
were some of the subsequent cases that you would speak about after that, that you latched on to, because you did have to have an episode two, three and four.

Kristi Lee  6:30  
Yeah, well, I never planned anything, you know, because it was just to teach myself how to make a podcast. And I was using the Paul Bardo case as kind of the vehicle for that. And then I release part two, and I'm like, Oh crap, like whoever's listening once more, I guess I have to think about what to do. So I chose, I think it was Cody ledger bokov, a teenage serial killer from British Columbia who targeted young girls, many of them were indigenous. And so I covered that case, and then eventually I challenged myself to do the Victoria Stafford murder, which it's a case that's very near and dear to the hearts of Ontarians, a little girl who was abducted and murdered by a pedophile and his girlfriend. And because I had young children and and still do it was very, very difficult. But, you know, people were asking for me to cover it, and I did. And then afterwards, I heard back from the victim's father, and he listened. And then I was like, Oh my goodness. Like people who are actually involved in these cases might actually find the podcast and listen to it, and he was very complimentary, thank goodness, but yeah, after that, that was like a reckoning for me. You know, I realized, wow, I'd always tried to be responsible, but yeah, the impact of that was massive, yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned

Matt Cundill  7:54  
that, because I wasn't quite sure how to phrase it, because it's something that has been new to me as well, and that's sort of the ethics of true crime reporting, True Crime podcasting. Some people do it well, and other people do it with a little bit of disregard that it sort of might affect lives. There are ethics involved here between the good podcasts and the bad ones. Yeah.

Kristi Lee  8:14  
I mean, there should be absolutely, because at the end of the day, we're telling the stories of somebody's the worst day of their life, and something that affects people for the rest of their lives. And there's a huge weight of responsibility to make sure that you do it and you include the nuance and the context, and you tell it honestly, and you don't exploit them, and you don't sensationalize it. And a lot of people like expect journalistic ethics to come into play in true crime, and sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. You know, it's victims of crime and survivors of crime aren't always waiting for, you know, random True Crime podcaster to reach out and ask them to talk about their case. So, you know, ethics are funny. They're very personal. And I guess in the end, I kind of had to come to my own set of ethical standards that are applied, depending on which case I'm covering.

Matt Cundill  9:12  
You would come pre tuned to be able to handle that, though, because you're from the communications world.

Kristi Lee  9:18  
Well, yeah, but definitely I never, it was always corporate communications. I mostly worked for, not for profits, universities, never anything adjacent to crime or anything like that. So whilst that side of things, you know, was I already had that skill set, the big thing that I had to learn was how to be trauma informed in my approach, because these are traumatized people, and you can't you have to be careful with them. And so I think what, what it requires is a lot of empathy. And I am someone who automatically has a lot of empathy just built into my personality. So I. I really kind of leaned in on that after I started realizing about the massive, like, weight of responsibility involved in telling these stories.

Matt Cundill  10:09  
Sherry Lynch does a podcast called True weird stuff. She's appeared on this podcast a few times. She does a morning radio show, Bob and Sherry show, but one of the things she said to me about Canada she said, when you guys do true crime, you guys really push the boat out. And it is some exceptional stories that are larger than life, that do make it to Australia, that do make it down to the US. And I sort of think in proportion to some of the stuff that's out there, yeah, Canada has a lot of crime content.

Kristi Lee  10:40  
Yeah, I think CBC podcast has done a really good job of getting Canadian True Crime content on the global stage, because their podcasts are so good. And then, you know, they brought Connie Walker, who did the missing and murdered indigenous women cases finding Cleo and she she ended up winning, I think, a Peabody Award, and she really put Canada on the map with True Crime podcasting, but also the issue of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. So yeah, Canada has really left its mark on on True Crime globally.

Matt Cundill  11:20  
We have a listener question. This one comes from Avery Cundill, who happens to be my wife, but she's also a huge fan of the show.

Kristi Lee  11:29  
Thank you. Avery,

Matt Cundill  11:30  
having produced and researched so many true crime stories, have you ever been able to find a common characteristic in the perpetrator or perpetrators of these crimes?

Kristi Lee  11:40  
I would say no, I've covered cases involving offenders who have had a history of criminal behavior, who might have been diagnosed with anti social personality disorder. You know what is often referred to as psychopathy or sociopathy, and those are often offenders who commit crimes for personal reasons or no apparent reason. And I've also covered cases with an ordinary person who one day cracks and you just don't know what's been going on in their background and in their heads. So some of them are real head scratchers. So it's almost impossible to predict these things and to really find commonalities between them. Everybody is so different. Every case is different. Every set of circumstances that leads up to the crime is different. I think that's the big thing that I've learned.

Matt Cundill  12:38  
What was the point when you said, oh, people are going to expect something from me on a regular basis. I had better provide something to people on a regular basis.

Kristi Lee  12:48  
Well, it was my hobby, but once I got my first kind of sponsorship, that's when I'm like, Okay, so these sponsors are expecting regular episodes. And back then, it was all about baked in advertising, right? So they wanted the episode on a certain day, and then they wanted to listen to the episode and listen to their ad in the episode. It's just not possible these days, right? But back then, they did. So I had to really set a publication schedule and stick to it to satisfy the advertisers.

Matt Cundill  13:18  
And so today, I mean, we talked about it was baked in then, but today, is it a combination of programmatic and baked in? Or is it faked in, or is it host baked in?

Kristi Lee  13:29  
I always, I never liked baked in ADS. It always struck me as being so inefficient because the ad is baked into the episode one, when it comes to back catalogs, that's a lost cause. Like, do you have to go back and edit out all the baked in ADS? Do you leave them there? Like, why can't I monetize my back catalog? And so, very, very early on, I started recognizing that, you know, I'm very technologically minded. And I started thinking, Well, why can't we do like, dynamic insertion, where, you know, an ad is slotted in somewhere for a certain period of time and then removed. And then, after a while, I start, I started learning about, you know, geo targeting, you know, where an ad could be slotted in and only to Canadians or only to Americans. And at that point, the Canadian podcasting industry was not as advanced as the US podcasting industry or even the UK, and so I could see what was happening there, but there just wasn't the opportunities for monetizing a Canadian audience. It was all just kind of baking your ad and whoever listens to it is who listens to it. So yeah, it was a massive focus for me to try and get on board with a hosting company that is able to offer that technology because it's so much more efficient. You know, baked in was just a nightmare.

Matt Cundill  14:55  
Yeah, I mean, just to explain it to anybody who doesn't understand the full technology. Behind it. When you do baked in, it means the ad's gonna live there forever. And essentially, Christie's content, let's say it was from 2017 you know what? Effectively, the ad space would be owned by somebody who paid for it once. When you have dynamic, the ad gets removed, and the space in the show is rented and re rented at a cost. And you also pointed out very accurately about the ads, because Canadians do not need to buy us stamps, so you don't need to talk about us stamps and have that run in Canada. I was very quick on that, because I had multiple clients between Canada and the US, and I had to separate them. What was the first podcast hosting company to solve this problem for you and give you dynamic audio insertion.

Kristi Lee  15:42  
Well, it really was ACast. ACast was the solution to everything that I wanted. It provided me with a dynamic insertion, the geo targeting and also local sales teams in several different global markets, so that I could monetize my Canadian audience, I could monetize the US audience, the Australian audience, and I felt like I'm really about efficiency, and I felt like it was the most efficient way, and they really set up an amazing infrastructure that makes it easy for podcasters to be able to take advantage of all of that. So I went with a cast in 2019 and I actually said a lot a lot of no's before that, I received quite a few offers from podcasting media broadcasting organizations in Canada and in the US, and they never offered me what I was looking for. And I so I just decided to hold back until I had that one thing that I could do, because it takes its effort to go with a new hosting company, right? It's a upheaval. Blah, blah, blah. So I just thought, I'm just going to focus on making the best possible content I can. And then when the Canadian market gets to a point where I can take advantage of some of this stuff that's out there, then I will. And then in 2019 it was, it was a cast that did that, and I'm still with them, and it's, it's gone, great. It's gone amazing.

Matt Cundill  17:05  
Are we there in Canada? Yet? I think we are.

Kristi Lee  17:09  
But it is still far behind the US. It's a small market, you know, it's a it's a small market, so I think there's far more opportunities in the US, especially because, you know, Apple podcasts are regional, and so my podcast would never show up on Apple podcasts to like us listeners. So it's I really had to lean into being Canadian, you know, rather than being a global podcast about Canadian stories. So I focused on on my Canadian listeners.

Matt Cundill  17:43  
We speak often in Canada when it comes to creating content about is this content that can be exported? So you can choose not to give away the number, what percentage of the listeners are Canadian? Well, for a

Kristi Lee  17:56  
time, there it was about 60% to 70% and that was in the early years when I was networking a lot with a lot of podcasters in the US. But then after a while, I realized that the kind of because my core audience was Canadian, and that was the main place where I was monetizing, I really needed to focus more on building the Canadian audience. And so at the moment, it's about, I think about 85% Canadian. So I've decided it's better to be a larger fish in a small pond than to disappear in a giant pond, which is the US.

Matt Cundill  18:38  
What does it take to make a great sounding show how many people you got on the team? And tell me about how that team grew over the years?

Kristi Lee  18:44  
Well, I don't have a big team. My big issue is that I love to make the podcast. I love working in audio. I love the writing, the research. It's like I never wanted to just to hire a team to do all of that stuff and then me manage them. There's a reason why I was never a people manager during my 20 year marketing communications career, I like to do stuff, you know, and so that has been a massive challenge for me, because I do have a small team. I rely on my audio editor, Eric Crosby. He's he does all so I will record a full script, send it to him. He'll edit it and send it back, but then it's back to me. So I'm the one who does the fine tweaking, adds, all the music, you know, the ad breaks, transitions, that type of thing. I love to do it, and it would really pain me to, like, give that to some somebody else. I'm also a massive control freak, you know, I I like things to be the way I like them, and I haven't seen a need to do things a different way, or that there's a problem that needs to be fixed. So I've just continued doing it like this, and I've, I've hired. Researchers and sometimes writers over the years. But another thing I found is that the longer I have done this podcast, the more I learn about things, the more I know, and it's it's hard for me to expect somebody else to bring that to my podcast as though they're me. It's like, I can't clone myself, and somebody brings their own unique perspective in so it's hard. It's really hard. A lot of people get into podcasting with the goal of starting a business and kind of edging back and being the manager. I it's just not for me. So I have one employee, my my editor is freelance, but I have one employee, Lindsay. She helps me with kind of behind the scenes stuff, marketing, social media, blurbs, ads, that type of thing. But most of my and then I have, you know, a researcher, but that's pretty and a content consultant. So I run my scripts over to the content consultant, and she'll tell me how to pronounce things and things to be wary of, and that type of thing. But other than that, it's I tend to work autonomously.

Matt Cundill  21:08  
This is a sad thing for me to say, but when I think of true crime, I always think of murder or murder cases, likely because the case is done and it's been established, and there's a lot of facts that are sitting on the table. But you've done some Canadian True Crime episodes that are not about murder, sexual assault, for instance. So take the Canadian junior hockey team also. Jacob Hoggard, you covered that case as well. Tell me about the timing for that. So do you execute and follow along and make notes and track it, and then you release it after what's the timeline, in comparison to what we get on the news for how you're going to compile an episode of that nature? Wow.

Kristi Lee  21:51  
Okay, so with the example of the Jacob Hoggard trial, I was watching that trial unfold, and I saw through the press, through journalism articles, that there were a lot of rape myths and stereotypes that the victim, complainants were being accused of by Jacob hoggard's defense lawyer. And I know that the Supreme Court of Canada has confirmed over and over again that rape myths and stereotypes should not be a part of sexual assault trials because it kind of derails the justice system. And these things have been outdated and they've been debunked. So I I decided I'm like, why is why are they still coming out in these trials, if they're not supposed to be so I decided to dig into that case and figure out exactly why. And I was also interested in how, you know the music side of things, how this kind of high profile musician ended up getting himself into this mess. And so the night before, so I waited until the end of the trial and the guilty verdict, and then I grabbed the court document right. A lot of court documents in Canada are released publicly on this website called Canley. And so once I had the court document, that means that I have like, the kind of concrete facts, and I just started digging into, like, what happened, why these rape myths and stereotypes were coming up, what the science tells us about how sexual assault survivors react, and, you know, the impact of trauma on the brain, and that type of thing. It's I was teaching myself at the same time, because I didn't know I'm I'm just a very curious person, and so that's kind of why I decided to get into that case. And it just so happened that the victim, complainant, that Jacob Hoggard was found guilty of sexually assaulting at his first trial, she was already a listener of my podcast, and so when I announced that I was beginning a series covering the Jacob Hoggard trial, the first one, she saw it on social media, and she reached out to me she was under publication ban, so I didn't know who she was. I couldn't contact her, and so it was a massive, massive thing for me to hear from her and and kind of a full circle moment to know that she's already a listener of my podcast, and she's thrilled that I'm covering her case. So she was with me throughout that whole kind of experience as I was releasing the series. So that's that's how I did the Jacob Hoggard kind of case. If we're talking about the Hockey Canada trial, I probably would never have covered that trial. And the only reason why it did is because by this point, I was quite good friends with Jessica, the victim, complainant from the Jacob hogar trial. I can say her name because her publication ban has now been lifted, and another survivor that we were good friends with, Kelly fever, and we're in a group chat, and they're telling me that they're watching the Hockey Canada trial, which I was not, and they're saying this is absolutely awful and bizarre. What's going on? On this poor victim, complainant is being cross examined by five different defense teams who are all working towards the common goal of a not guilty verdict for the clients they're representing. And there were all these debacles with juries and mistrials, and I really just wanted to give these two survivors, Jessica and Kelly, a platform to really talk about what they were seeing in the Hockey Canada trial as it was happening. And so before the verdict even came in, the three of us recorded a big, long conversation, and it was just supposed to be that them talking about that. But then the verdict came in, and it was not guilty across the board, and I hadn't had time to release my episode yet because I'm still editing, and so I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like, it is a big deal to talk about a case like that, and it's kind of intimidating as well, but it is in the public interest for people to understand what really goes on behind these cases. So in the end, my curiosity was piqued, and then I just had to, like, go through and go through that judge's 90 page written decision and really dig into the details of it. And so that's why I ended up doing it. It was very bad decision of me to start working on this before the not guilty verdicts even came in, and it's a lesson that I learned. I I don't typically ever do that, and I did it this time for the survivors, and next time I would wait until after the verdict.

Matt Cundill  26:32  
Yeah, I kind of feel like when you start something like that, you would wind up doing some of the work twice, absolutely. Which sends me crazy. Doing work twice. I don't like that.

Kristi Lee  26:42  
No, no, it's that's the thing, right? You're always when you, when you come into something like this as an independent not from the industry, not a journalist, it's like you never stop learning. There are always new things to learn, new lessons you know that you have to reckon with it never ends.

Matt Cundill  27:04  
You have an inbox that I probably think would be a half day job just to deal with, and it's about for case submissions. What does that inbox look like?

Kristi Lee  27:14  
It's well, I have all those case submissions going into a Google spreadsheet that groups them by case name and province. So it makes it easy. If I'm looking, you know, it's like, oh, I have to cover a case from Newfoundland or something. I'll go into the case suggestion spreadsheet, search on, on Newfoundland, and then see if there's any cases there that pique my, my interest in curiosity, and I get the listeners to say why they're submitting the case, what makes it interesting to them? And so, yeah, it would be an absolute nightmare, but thankfully, I have that Google spreadsheet to keep everything organized.

Matt Cundill  27:51  
I got to meet you at podcast. Power up the grouping in Toronto we did a few years ago before Radio Days North America. There are some, there's crime con. Have you been to crime con? Have you been to any other conventions, specifically to True Crime though?

Kristi Lee  28:08  
Yeah, I went to crime con in 2018 and I found it a little bit sensationalist. It was very, I mean, it was very American. What like? I think we understand that the Americans love the kind of spectacle, and I think Canadians generally try and take a more restrained approach. So it was an interesting experience for me, but it wasn't really one that I was looking to repeat and go go back to that. It just kind of wasn't really my scene. I have been to crime con UK because that was run by a different group, and that was a little bit different, but most of the time, I've been to quite a few conferences for the true crime podcast Festival, which was started by some of my original friends in my true crime podcasting network. So and that that was a very good one. There was no sensationalism, no exploitation. They were trauma informed with the victims and survivors that that came to the conference, and it was educational as well.

Matt Cundill  29:17  
So there's an entire industry now that I didn't even know existed, but I knew it existed, and it's a lot of it is done on YouTube, and I know because my wife will have it on and you know, things like lawyer, you know, I didn't even know where Court TV went, but it found its way onto YouTube and a few other places. And do you ever get like calls to appear on shows like that?

Kristi Lee  29:41  
No, no, I don't, you know, I tend to keep a low profile, and I'm kind of glad that I don't get a lot of requests to go on shows like that. By the way,

Matt Cundill  29:52  
keep a low profile yet you're on this show, and I want to thank you for that today. So because I do know you, I know you keep a low profile. So thanks for coming

Kristi Lee  29:59  
on today. Thanks for having me.

Matt Cundill  30:02  
With that comes video. We touched on video. And so here's, here's the big podcast trend. Well, you got to be on video. If you're not on video, you don't have a podcast, you know, all that noise. How have you handled that?

Kristi Lee  30:14  
I stuck to audio. I don't really want my my face to be out there, you know, like, consistently, I I actually have a lot of anxiety about people recognizing my voice. And it has happened a few times. The lady that I caught that I got to do My will, like, by the time I had a phone call with her, she's like, Oh, are you the podcaster? So I'd already given her all my financial information and stuff. It's just a I just don't want people to to recognize me. So that's one thing. I don't want my face on the video. I like audio. I like talking. I like people listening. I like editing audio. And the other thing too is that I feel like video detracts from the audio. And a lot of anecdotes recently that I've been reading are audio only podcasts who turn into a video podcast, but then they become video focused and end up alienating their audio audience. So they'll be saying something like, oh, I can see you're doing this. Or, you know, here's something on the screen, or something, you know, and and then the podcast listeners feel like it's not the same thing that they're listening to anymore. And I think what a lot of industry people are realizing is that they're different mediums and they have different benefits and advantages. And one thing that I really like about podcasting and audio is the RSS feed and the fact that it doesn't have an algorithm and that it's fair and it's transparent, and if you you know all these video podcasts on YouTube, the algorithm and the way that it's all monetized over there, is just a completely different world to What we know in podcasting, audio only, and it's a whole new beast. It's a wild wild west over there. So I'm gonna stick for those reasons. I am sticking with podcasts and audio because I just don't think that there that people, there is a need, a market, for people to be able to continue to do things with their hands and their eyes whilst also listening to something. So that's how I value podcasts. It helps me, if I'm doing my laundry, cooking, cleaning, gardening, whatever, I can still do something, and I it doesn't need my eyes, so that's what I'm going to keep doing. But honestly, I've thought about going on to YouTube, not running the podcast through, though it'd be something like turning my podcast episodes into audio essays or video essays, should I say? But even then the algorithm, it's just, I don't know. I just really like RSS, you know.

Matt Cundill  33:00  
Oh, I know, I'm a big fan, and I'm with you. What is something in your top right drawer that you are not ready to unpack and do an episode on just yet, something that you've been thinking about? Um, not yet. We'll wait,

Kristi Lee  33:13  
human trafficking. It is something that I know that is widely misunderstood, and I personally don't know a lot about it, and I know that it's going to be a big undertaking, and I do have a plan this year to cover that that case, I've been approached by a sexual assault center in Kingston who are managing 28 victims of a man who is has been accused of sexual abuse and human trafficking, amongst other things. And so I will be digging into that with the participation of the survivors. And it will be a big thing, because human trafficking is, like I said, so misunderstood. People don't understand how it actually happens. And there's, there's a misconception that, you know, these people are getting plucked off the streets and abducted or whatever, and it's so much more insidious. That's one thing, it it's been on my mind for a few years now, and I just haven't gone there, because I know it's, it's going to be a lot.

Matt Cundill  34:15  
But yeah, I want to congratulate you on blowing past 200 episodes and getting on as you make your way towards 300 congratulations. It's a giant accomplishment. And if there were a Canadian podcast Hall of Fame, we'd see you at the induction ceremony.

Kristi Lee  34:30  
Oh, my God, that is so nice of you. Thank you. I never thought I'd make it here.