The Great Wallet Shift: What’s Next for Podcasters?

Hey, Daniel, what's in your wallet?

This is the Future of Podcasting, where we ponder what awaits the podcasters of today.

From the school of podcasting, here's Dave Jackson.

And from the Audacity to Podcast, here's Daniel J.

Lewis.

Daniel Future of podcasting, episode 54.

We're talking wallets today.

That's fun, but not the kind of wallet you get.

Although you can't see this, I have the fun filled.

What is the name of this thing when we talk in wallets?

It is the big skinny wallet, because I used to have the George Costanza one, you know, that you put in your back pocket and would break your hip.

So they're not a sponsor, but they should be.

Big skinny wallets are my favorite when I have one for my the back pocket of my jeans.

We're talking wallets in the cloud for Bitcoin, et cetera, et cetera.

And the good news is we don't have an official solution, but there is kind of a light at the end of the tunnel.

Since Walletmageddon or whatever we're going to.

Call that, let's back up and say what the problem is.

Albie Wallets are going away.

The thing that, like so much of the podcasting 2.0 streaming satoshis was built on this idea of Alby Wallets and something similar to that too, that's basically going away.

Well, Alby Wallets are going away.

There is this Albie Hub thing that is easier now to run than it was when it first came out, but it's still geeky.

But it's more possible to do.

If this is language that you're familiar with, then you'd be comfortable doing this.

You can run Albi Wallet Hub from a Docker image.

So if you want to rent a cheap server, you know, a $2 server somewhere, and run Albi Hub on that as your wallet, you could do that.

Is that necessarily the best thing?

I don't know.

But with some of these tax laws and crypto laws and financial laws and all kinds of things out there, there are all of these concerns around the legality of some of these solutions, or if someone really wants to get into this business of basically hosting wallets, because that makes them a sort of financial provider, which means they have to do all of these other things and that means expensive stuff.

So all that to say it's complicated, it's messy for the people creating these wallets that we've used.

And it basically means that what we've been doing for now a couple Or a few years for the Value for Value exchange streaming payments to podcasters through the podcasting 2.0 technology.

That's going to end.

However, I think that's a good thing.

We've talked about this in this podcast before, where we've said, if we have to move away from this, it will inspire new innovation.

And, Dave, why did you start the future of podcasting?

Originally, it was under a different name, but why did you start it?

Yeah, because I didn't know a thing about crypto.

That was the meme that went out, and I was like, well, I guess I'm going to jump in and.

Because there's only one way to find out, and that's to try using it.

And there was.

What's the telecommution.

There's some sort of tela.

Something telegram involved and all sorts of stuff.

And then I.

Voltron or volt voltage or there's some sort of thing.

And they're like, wow, you started your own node?

I'm like, I did.

Okay, if you say so.

So, yeah, it wasn't really easy.

And then when Albie came along, it was like, oh, just set this up and you get this email and you copy and paste that.

And it made.

It didn't make it easy, but it made it easier.

And then what was interesting is after everybody kind of like, hey, this is easier.

Wow.

And then we all jumped on it.

And I remember the first time Adam said, you know, we've kind of taken this thing that's all about being decentralized and it's kind of centralized.

And I went, yeah, that's not a good thing when you think about it.

And I was.

I know.

Whoever voltage I think it was, I was using, but that was like 20 bucks a month.

And I was like, well, this thing, they just take a piece of my action, I'm assuming.

Or they remember when I met them, I said, what's the business model?

And they're like, we're going to worry about it later.

And I was like, oh, that's always kind of, you know, so they're great guys and, you know, they've given you a solution if you.

Again, if you're kind of nerdy, to get Albie Hub, I have no idea what I'm doing.

I just asked them, I'm like, hey, I just want to be able to receive sats like I used to.

And they're like, oh, this?

And I'm like, okay.

And I have no idea, like, if they said, go in and change the perplexiflexer to, you know, minus gigawatts gonna be like, I have no idea.

Recalibrate the flux capacitor.

Exactly.

I'd be.

I have no idea what you're talking.

I still don't know.

You know, I, I know enough to be dangerous and if you got a good help section, I can probably figure it out, but.

And from what I get, we're paying them in crypto and I'm on like a three month deep discount, but once the price goes back to normal, I'm going to have to.

And again, kind of much the problem.

I'm going to have to transfer money from my bank account to my strike account so I can then pay their invoice in crypto.

So that whole thing is like, I don't know how it's going to work, if it's going to automatically try and if I don't have enough money in my strike, it's going to bounce.

I'll have to figure that out when the, the bill comes through.

But I appreciate the effort that they've put in.

You know, we wouldn't have gotten this far without the lovely boys over at Alby.

But when I saw the price and I finally, whatever it's, it's like 20 something dollars a month and I'm like, I'm not getting anywhere near that, like even if I broke even.

But.

So for now I'll probably keep using it just because I guess the alternative, that's my whole question, would be to either open a Fountain wallet or something at True Fans with Sam.

And I'm not sure either one of those is set up to be.

I know listeners can put money in to support the podcasters, but I'm not sure podcasters can use it as kind of a, an input for crypto.

I'm not sure how Fountain works exactly, but I know Oscar and that was the thing.

Oscar was on the latest episode of the podcasting 2.0 show.

And to his credit, and this is where Oscar really, I mean, the whole community, it's interesting how we all work together and basically Oscar came up with something because he could have just said, hey, everybody got to use Fountain.

I know we're going to trade one centralized version for another one, but he's like, oh, you can use Fountain, but here's this other thing you can use.

So he actually made something that might end up being his competitor.

And I was like, that just shows the heart of somebody who does something that's good for the space.

Not so much great for him because it could be a competitor, but I just thought it was nice that he was like, all right, somebody's got to have a solution.

And I know it has something to do with Nostr, in name only, but not really Nostr, whatever that is.

And he kind of put it out there, said, hey, here's the solution, and we can all look at it.

And most really good ideas don't come in the first draft.

It's when somebody looks at it and goes, oh, this is pretty neat.

I wonder if we could get it to do this, or what if we tied it in with this or that whole thing?

So that's from what I could hear without really understanding most of what they were talking about with the details, I was like, I was just happy that we have people working on it.

And it sounds like they have something that if they have to, because come January, whatever the date was, I want to say 16th, it's going away.

So we got to have something in place.

And now it's a matter of all hands on deck to kick the tires on this and see if this is the best idea for now.

And then we have to leave enough time for app developers to be able to rework their apps to somehow use whatever new format that's going to be in place.

Yeah, and it's that first draft, second draft sort of thing that has me excited because I feel like we got too into and too committed to the first draft, which was the whole streaming satoshis and the Albie approach to this.

And I know there were other things to it.

So this isn't.

Everything is on Albie's shoulders.

It's not like that.

But we did build around this one model and really put all of the focus and attention on this one approach, and it was a very geeky approach.

And like in my keynote presentation years ago, my prediction about the future of podcasting is that the technology will disappear whenever you build something completely brand new on the cutting edge, the technology is very visible, and the geeks love getting into the technology.

That's like why podcasting in the beginning was mostly tech shows, because it was all the nerds and geeks who could figure out how to podcast and publish it.

But then, as podcasting has become far more accessible since then, we've seen more people who know nothing about the technology, being able to get their voices out there through podcasting.

I think that is wonderful.

They shouldn't have to know the tech.

Same thing here in podcasting 2.0.

With a lot of these features we're making, I really think the approach needs to be that they shouldn't have to know the tech.

They shouldn't have to understand how it works.

It should be as simple as clicking a few buttons or filling in a few fields.

Not this stuff like having to know are you using keysend or node or what is your.

All of this stuff making it simpler.

And I'm excited about this because it's forcing everyone to get on board with coming up with something new.

And there have been multiple suggestions of different approaches that could be taken to this.

One of the things that's been talked about is right now, what podcasting 2.0 is doing with the streaming satoshis isn't being done almost anywhere else.

And that is where it is actually streaming the payments from the listener's wallet to the podcaster's wallet and all of the other wallets that might be in the splits as well.

And that's happening every minute.

That's not being done in other places as people are reevaluating things.

That's one of the things that people have thought about is, well, do we really.

Do we really need the ability to stream the payments every minute?

Why not just count up?

Like you have a ticker that at the end of the episode or whenever you pause an episode or stop or delete it or whatever, whenever you move on from an episode for whatever reason, that's when the payment is sent.

Just one single payment for however long you've listened.

So it's still the effect of a streaming payment where someone is paying you based on how much they listen to the podcast or paying automatically.

The actual implementation is different.

There are some other ideas that are being discussed that I really like these ideas because another problem that we've created is the split apocalypse or the overload of splits.

Like, well, let's be honest.

If you look at the podcasting 2.0 show for this and actually look at their splits, it can look like a mess sometimes because there are so many splits in the RSS feed.

And the reason for that is that Adam and Dave are being so generous to the ecosystem.

So they want other people to get a split of the money that's coming in.

And that's great.

I'm not saying that idea is bad, the implementation of that.

I think when we came up with the idea of splits, we were initially thinking, you put yourself in there and your co host, and then maybe someone gets a fee for a service they're providing and that's it.

I don't think we anticipated the two dozen splits and splitting things up on the chapter level.

Or individual sections of an episode.

So these are uses that have come out in the last couple of years that we've then squeezed into the way we were doing things because we had already committed to that way of doing things.

Well, if we have to change the way we're doing things, then we can also reevaluate our implementations for these other things.

And one of the ideas that I really like is where.

Now, I'm not completely clear on the technical explanation for this, but here's the conceptual explanation is where instead of putting all your splits in your RSS feed, you put a single.

We'll just call it like a payment destination.

And a payment is sent to that single destination, and then that destination handles where the splits go.

And it could even be possible that that destination could receive multiple types of payment.

So let's just throw this out there.

It could receive satoshis, which are small portions of Bitcoin.

It could receive Ethereum, maybe other kinds of cryptocurrency.

It could receive a PayPal payment.

Maybe it integrates nice with Vemo and Stripe and other things like that.

Now, how technically possible that is, I don't know, but that's what I'm talking about.

That could potentially be built into this, where it's then this one universal end point where it's like, send your money here.

We'll figure out how to actually convert that and use it.

I think that's a much better approach to this.

And that's the kind of thing that people are talking about because we're having to throw out the old models.

Old models.

This is all brand new.

So it's.

We can't really call it old.

We just can say the current model rather.

So we have to look at this.

It's like a door is closing.

And instead of just trying to look for an open window or build another door, we're saying, you know what?

As long as that door is closed, how about we rebuild the whole house and make the whole house better and with a better door on it, too?

And it is.

It's amazing that it works.

But when we brought music into this, and the fact that you could send a payment to a band and that band could then split it amongst the members, I was like, that's really cool.

And now looking back, I go, but did that complicate things?

Like, we haven't really got full adoption of the streaming sats in the first place, and we're already adding more complexity to it.

And I'm like, I mean, I really do.

I love the idea But I'm like, maybe not.

You know what I mean?

It's like, maybe it should just be here.

Here's 20 bucks for the band.

You guys argue about it.

The drummer is going to get less.

That's just in the handbook.

But it'll be interesting to see.

Can we take all this progress that we've done with the splits?

Because I really do think is that the magic switching wallet where splits came in for something that was magic.

So I don't want to get rid of the magic.

But it might be one of those where we have to step back and go, maybe we come back to this later.

Let's just get it working now with just sending a payment and then later we can figure out what to do with the splits.

We'll have to see.

But I haven't looked at the.

Because I'm not going to understand it anyway.

The thing that Oscar made.

But I should go, at least sniff it so I can go, yes, I don't understand this, but I love the fact I know it's on GitHub or something that you can, if you are of that persuasion, you can go play with it.

So that'll be fun to see what comes about.

And this is the way that programming works many times where you make something rough in the beginning that gets by and does its job.

And let me self promote here for a moment.

Podgagement.

So has the new charts and rankings feature that I started building that five years ago.

That's why my chart data for POD gaugement goes back five years now.

The way that I stored all of that data for all of these years was not the best way.

So it's taking a long time to convert all of that data over to be usable.

But that code that I made five years ago, I look at that now and it is horrible.

It is embarrassingly bad, but it's getting the job done.

It's been working for five years.

But now that I look at it with now five years of experience, like that was my first app that I programmed completely by myself with my new knowledge of the programming language that I was using.

And I made it work well.

Now I've learned a whole lot more since then.

I've observed a lot more different ways of doing things.

I've learned better practices.

Even just the file structure of these different files that are parts of my whole program, it's a mess.

But I have a much better structure now.

So when I can, I'm going to rebuild it into a better structure and optimize it and find ways to make it go faster and to be more thorough and to be more automated in certain aspects, because that's what you can do.

You.

You build it rough.

It's that minimum viable product idea that it might be really rough in the beginning, but it's just getting it out there, the proof of concept, or getting something working, and then you're building on that in the future.

I know some people hate the gaming industry for doing this, though, where a lot of companies release games that basically aren't finished.

The games of our days, Dave, when we played video games as kids, you got it.

And that's what you got, is what you got on a disc, on a cd, on a cartridge, whatever it was that was on that, that's what you got.

There were no DLCs, there were no patches.

The companies had to make sure the game worked from the start.

Now, the games were a lot simpler back then, so it was easier for that.

But, you know, nowadays some of these games, they're released and they have so many bugs, so many problems, and it takes sometimes years to work out all of these things.

Sometimes it's just unanticipated stuff, untested stuff.

Sometimes it's just they decide we have to put it out there rough and we'll fix it in post, that kind of thing.

Like we do sometimes in podcasting, where we just record a horrible show and think we can fix it up in the editing.

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

But here we are in this next phase where we can reevaluate these things and think about, do we really want to put so many splits inside the RSS feed, or can we somehow delegate that elsewhere?

Do we really want to be tied?

And the bitcoin idea, regardless of whether we use bitcoin and satoshis, does the audience need to know it's bitcoin and satoshis?

Could we instead just talk about credits or tokens, even though it might be exactly the same as bitcoin?

So maybe instead of satoshis, like, maybe we say a credit is worth a thousand satoshis.

So then you're sending one credit to a podcaster and you're really sending 1000 satoshis, but it's an equal value like that.

That kind of thing could happen too, where we can just really reevaluate a lot of these things to try and make it easier for everyone else so that it doesn't require so much learning in order to just get money from people.

Because I really think, and this is the direction we're going now, it needs to be as easy for the audience as pretty much they just press pay in their app and they connect a payment method on the first time and anytime after that, everything else is either automated or just a simple button press.

None of this having to transfer money from one place to another or convert it from one thing to another, even having to think about that.

And some people are afraid of bitcoin, whatever reason.

We could call it anything else.

Like James Gridland talks about it, like Internet tokens or kind of like circus tickets or fair tickets.

We could call it anything else.

And I think some people would be less afraid of it, but they hear Bitcoin, and some people are afraid just because of whatever reasons that has bad connotations in their mind.

We could move beyond that, and I think we should, so that they don't have to think about the underlying technology.

It's just like when we send each other money, we don't really think about how it's converting.

Or like with Apple pay, for example, from iPhone to iPhone, or Google Pay from Android device to Android device, you don't have to transfer money from your bank account into an Apple account and then into your iPhone and then send it to the other person who then has to transfer it and convert it and do all of this stuff.

It's pretty much straight from my bank account to your bank account via this other technology.

Yeah, that's what we're aiming for, I guess.

The other thing I just wanted to kind of say for anyone who's.

I know for a while when we didn't hear anything, we kind of knew this wasn't going to work.

And they were like, okay, well, what are we going to replace it with?

And nothing really came about.

And then nothing can.

You know, people are busy, it's that time of year.

And so I could see where I was even kind of going, ooh, maybe this particular part of 2.0 isn't going to work.

And if you think about it, you made a great point.

When I first started podcasting, I used to keep every file I used for that episode, and I would export it as a WAV file, and then I would export it as an MP3.

Why?

Because I didn't know if I needed them or not.

And I might.

I don't know if they're going to build a Dave Jackson library or something in the future.

60 Minutes is going to call.

I don't know what I was thinking, but I was like, no, I need a wave version of this.

And I look back now and go, why?

Why did I do that?

And because you didn't know.

You're like, well, I want to keep this in case I need it.

And now once I finish an episode, I Keep the finished MP3 and the rest is out the door.

I'm like, I don't.

You know, I've never once had to go, oh, wait, I need just the recorded version of me from episode 72.

No, I don't need these anymore.

So this is kind of one of those times when we look back and go, oh, you know what?

Maybe we don't need this.

We thought we needed it, but we don't.

So let's move forward in a more efficient way, in a way that makes more sense and maybe is a little more open and able to connect more things.

So that's the other thing.

I was like, okay, this is just.

It's just a little learning curve, a little speed bump, you know, that we go, oh, yeah, we thought that was going to work.

And then it didn't.

So we then switched to that.

So you can think of it as you're living through history right now.

And the other thing I noticed, it's going to be annoying.

A lot of people are going to complain, but I know, is it.

I want to say Verge.

Is it Verge or Verve when we talk about the online.

The Verge.

Yeah, the Verge.

Okay.

They have announced that they're going to go behind a paywall, and so is Bloomberg.

So all the great podcasting articles about from Ashley Carmen, they're going behind a paywall.

And I'm kind of like, I don't really want Bloomberg.

I just want, like, can Ashley go solo on Substack or something?

To where I just.

But I saw that I was kind of like, oh, man, another subscription.

And I'm like, I think that's just the way things are going to go.

We're going to get nickeled and dime to death.

And the things you want, you'll pay for, and the things you don't, you won't.

But at least the idea of, hey, maybe you should pay your podcast or something hopefully won't seem like such a foreign idea.

As opposed to, well, they're supposed to be free.

It's like, no, no, you pay for things that you value.

And so I'm hoping to see people that pay for other subscriptions are going to see this as just like, oh, yeah, things that deliver value, I need to pay for.

So I'm hoping that kind of spills over into the mentality as we start to move this way when people Go.

What do you mean?

I have to get a cash app account or strike or whatever it is.

It's like, no, this is how this works.

And those that want to pay will go through the extra steps, and those that don't, well, even right now, I like Castamatic.

That's one of my faves.

Right now I'm using Podcast Guru, but the developer of Castamatic is in Italy.

And Strike, one of the things used in the proposed solution isn't available in Italy, so he can't even test his app.

So that's going to be, in a way, as you said earlier, okay, that's a closed door.

That means I want to say Frederick or I forget the developer of Castomatic.

That guy's going to have to find something different.

And so he might end up coming up with a completely different solution that's better.

So it'll be interesting to see, because if you're in a maze and you come to a dead end, you don't go, oh, well, I guess we'll just sit here and die of starvation.

You know, you go back and find a different way outside of the maze.

So it'll be fun to watch.

Yeah.

And that this whole complicated system has already been received with such enthusiasm and used in so many places to some good success, shows it really proves the concept that people are willing to do this.

Like you consider a podcast, like the buzzcast from our friends at Buzzsprout, where, yes, they have an audience of podcasters, but they were doing this podcast before the podcasting 2.0 stuff came out, before the Value for Value.

And I don't think they ever asked for money or donations from their audience before the Value for Value feature in podcasting 2.0 came out.

But when the streaming satoshis and booster grams did come out, then they did start supporting that.

And their audience, even though they don't get super techie, their audience still started giving them money because they were using this thing.

And I know that's on the fringe because their audience is an audience of podcasters, and we podcasters are more on the fringe of the technologies and such, but still, it shows that it's doable and people are interested in it.

It's like, we've proven that there is a need for this.

There are ways to do this.

We've had success with a way.

Now we have to find a different way, and we will find a different way.

And I think it will end up being a better way because we've gotten phase one out.

We've discovered new ways of using it.

We've discovered new needs that whatever has to accommodate.

So I think it will become a whole lot easier.

The biggest hurdle to a lot of other things, like, a lot of people might think, well, why don't you just use Stripe and PayPal?

The biggest hurdle is not the percentage.

A percentage is fine.

Percentages, I think, are good, like a.

A fee, a percentage of whatever is being given.

A percentage fee is taken out.

That's fine.

What's not good are some of these systems take also an additional flat rate on top of that.

Like PayPal and Stripe are close to 50 cents per transaction, plus the percentage fee.

So if someone, for example, wanted to give 50 cents to every podcast episode that they listen to, that's just not doable through PayPal.

Right?

And 50 cents, I know that is tiny.

Yes, I know that.

But as we can get into this mindset and more and more people will start to think about this as, how much do I value what I'm getting?

This is where the real concept of value for value is.

It is not in streaming satoshis.

It's the mindset.

It's, I value this thing I'm getting, therefore, I want to give something of value back.

We're creating a sense of reciprocity in people and pointing that out to them to say, hey, we've given you all of this value.

Like, just recently, Overcast Marco announced that he was raising the price of Overcast, raising it by 50%, which is $5 a year.

So it's going from $10 a year to $15 a year.

$15 a year.

And do you know how many hours Overcast runs on my device?

Yeah, I mean, we're talking.

I get thousands of hours of content from Overcast per year.

Is that worth $15 to me?

Yeah, it's worth more than that.

So if he raised the price to more than that, I would be willing to pay it, because I value his app and his service like that.

And so bringing it back to the podcast and podcasters, as I think more audiences get used to seeing options to pay for things, whether that's with bonus content or it's just giving money back, I think the more and more that becomes commonplace, the more they'll be willing to do it.

And maybe even if they can see, oh, I can give just 50 cents an episode, I can spare 50 cents an episode.

And like even me, and I've referenced before, cash flow is just an issue right now.

But even me, when I think about, could I give just even just 50 cents to each podcast.

I listen to 50 cents a month even to each podcast.

Yeah, I can do 50 cents.

You know, that's just shake out my couch every month, and probably more than that will fall out of it every month.

I could do that now, getting to that process of being able to support all of those podcasts, that's where the technology comes in.

But this mindset is what we need to train our audience.

But not even saying, hey, give us 50 cents, but leaving it open.

And this is again, the concept of value for value is what is this worth to you?

And would you want to consider, can you give that back if it's been worth that to you?

To some people?

Like, you listen to the no Agenda show and you hear some people giving thousands of dollars in one single payment because they feel the podcast is worth that much to them.

And I saw the same thing when I was doing a TV show fan podcast about the TV show once upon a time, that when we started accepting donations, I was amazed.

Some people were paying us $100 a month for a free podcast about a free TV show.

And this was before I was listening to no Agenda or really familiar with the concept of value for value, even though I was basically doing it.

It's just when people have that opportunity and we can make it easy for them to give back, they'll be far more likely to do it of whatever value amount they attribute to that thing.

It's funny, because on one hand, we all work really hard on our craft and our content, and then when people pay us for it, we're like, hey, like, somebody find this valuable?

And I'm like, well, yeah, you put.

You put a lot of time and effort into it.

It's worth something.

I know.

The thing I love about at least you mentioned the no Agenda show is the insane back catalog they have.

So they'll mention something in the, you know, news today, and John and Adam would be like, wait a minute, didn't they say the direct opposite, like, four months ago?

And within seconds, Adam has this clip.

And that's just something the mainstream media doesn't do.

They don't hold themselves accountable.

But John and Adam do.

And they're like, yep, that's what he said.

That's the direct opposite, or whatever it was.

So.

And that, to me, is valuable.

I'm like, oh, I'm not getting this in mainstream news or even on some of the kind of specialty news shows.

I'm like, I just don't get that kind of information.

So I know I'm set up on PayPal to give them a certain amount of money.

Every now and then, I'll send them in a boost I need to claim my knighthood.

I'm actually a knight.

I guess I'm a silent knight at this point because I've never sent in money and going, hey, I want my ring.

And then that whole nine yards.

So, you know, we're going to have to be patient.

I know it's only till January when Albie will close.

Hopefully, you know, this will be put in place.

That's going to be the.

The hard part because the, the process is, let's all beat the snot out of this, make sure it's the best solution that we feel we have for now.

And then the apps are going to have to update.

And then I would believe media hosts like I know Captivate has a place where you put in your information.

I'm assuming that's going to have to change to connect to this new style of receiving payments.

So we're all going to kind of have to scramble.

And it may be that in some cases, not everybody gets updated by, like, your wallet might break for a small amount of time.

Hopefully small, where not everybody can meet the deadlines.

Because, look, it's the holiday season.

We all have lives and most of us that work in this space have other jobs.

So it's going to be interesting to see.

So if I was an AI person, I would say to strap yourself in.

It's going to be maybe a bumpy road, but we're going to have to do a deep dive into the new technology.

You know, every time I say deep dive now, I'm like, oh, I'm so AI.

Ugh.

But you know what's not AI, Dave?

If people wanted to do a deep dive and learn how to refine their craft of podcasting and their content and either start or improve their podcast, where should they go?

I think a good place to start would be the school of podcasting where you get step by step courses, you get an awesome community, and you get unlimited.

Yes.

That's not a typo consulting with me.

And if I wanted to maybe see how my show is doing, maybe even use something that tracks charts or maybe gives me voicemail or reviews all in one place.

Daniel, do you know of anything that could do that?

Absolutely.

Go to pod gagement.com now with charts and ranking features and SEO tracking features coming soon too.

So think podcast engagement.

You want podcast engagement, you want to grow it and improve your podcast and grow your podcast?

Go to pod engagement.com so speaking of.

Satoshis and all that fun stuff, Dino, do we have any boostograms?

We did.

We got two boostograms.

Thank you very much.

Especially since this might be a dying breed, the boostogram thing.

No, no, Boostograms aren't going away, but method might change.

We got a boostogram from Randy Black, 1000 SATs.

He said another great podcast.

Keep up the great work, guys, and go podcasting.

Excellent.

Thank you, randy.

Also, we got 777 sats from Steve Webb, Sir OG Godcaster, who said, love the show, guys.

Thank you.

We love you too.

Absolutely, Steve Webs.

That is an OG right there.

He goes back to that was the very first whatever it was new media something expo with the podcast brothers.

Because it was Tim Berkwin's.

We'll dust off 20 year knowledge.

There was a guy named Tim Berkwin and Amir.

They were the podcast brothers.

And they were the guys that held kind of the first big podcast meetup.

It was in I want Ontario.

Doesn't sound right, but maybe that's.

Yeah, that's what everyone talks about, Ontario.

Okay, there you go.

Well, you know, it's 24 years old now.

The memories aren't quite as clear as they used to be.

So as we record this, we're in December and so what we're going to do, we're not going to do an episode anymore in December, I guess as a way of saying that.

But here's what you can do if you want.

You can go to futureofpodcasting.net follow and if you're not following the show, you can and actually comb through our back catalog, maybe find some old ones.

Daniel mentioned that when the show first started, it wasn't called the Future of Podcasting.

You can go back to the very first show, although that would be bad.

But you could and cherry pick our old episodes there if you want to while you're waiting for another episode to come back.

So what we can do at this point, it's almost a dad joke.

It's so bad.

You know, we'll see you next year.

Get it?

Because in January.

Yeah, okay, excellent.

But I think that's going to do it for episode 54 of the Future of Podcasting.

Everybody have a Merry Christmas.

I always say.

Happy Kwanza, Massaca.

I think that covers everybody.

And we will see you in 2025.

And a happy New Year.