Former NPR, Apple, Wondery, and Netflix Development Exec N’Jeri Eaton on Why Certain Podcasts Work

Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription software errors.

Jeff Umbro: This week on Podcast Perspectives.

If someone has a great idea, but no pilot, what is the minimum that they should bring into the room with you?

N'Jeri Eaton: I mean, there should still be a pitch, right? What is the show? Who is it for? What is the format and structure of episodes? What is the tone of it? Right? You can tell me a lot about what the show without me ever hearing a single piece of audio.

Jeff Umbro: Today's guest is N'Jeri Eaton, one of the most influential people behind the scenes in podcasting. She's led programming at NPR, Apple Podcasts, Netflix, and Wondery, deciding which shows get made and how they reach listeners. Now she's advising major brands as an independent development consultant at her new organization, Type C Studios.

We're going to talk about how big companies think about budgets and risk and what actually makes a show worth greenlighting for listeners.

Welcome to the show, N'Jeri.

N'Jeri Eaton: Thank you so much.

Jeff Umbro: You've essentially held green lighting power at NPR, Apple, Netflix, Wondery, all in just a handful of years. How do you describe what you actually do when you walk into a new organization?

N'Jeri Eaton: I really feel like, like on paper rights, like I'm a podcast development executive. Right? But I feel like to me, what I'm really good at is being a connector and connecting with creatives, be they, be they journalists or filmmakers or any kind of storytellers, and help to enable them to tell their story, to get their story out in the best way possible.

That's what I feel like my job is, and I, and I also feel like my job, the department job is kind of like. We're moving obstacles out of the way so people can do their best work as creatives, right? So whether that's like, you know, helping to build a team, support the story, or work with marketing to make sure like the messaging is right and we have the plan to meet the right plan to meet the right audience or sales, whatever it is, I feel like everything I do is in the service of the story and in service. In service of the creative I'm working with.

Jeff Umbro: And I know the business model is different at each of the organizations that you've worked at, but like how core and key to like greenlighting something is the idea of like, can this ultimately achieve my goal?

N'Jeri Eaton: Oh, it's absolutely completely key. Right? And not every show has hit every goal, right? Because then you'd be making.

Jeff Umbro: You would be even more of a phenom if that was true.

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah, but I, but it's also like unrealistic, right? So you have, like every place I've ever gone to, ever worked at, you have your business goals and some shows like, you know, you say like. We need to have a certain amount of revenue. Some shows, like this is a really good show, but also it's like it's our biggest revenue driver.

Sometimes it's like we need to get an audience that we don't yet have. Right? So this show that if you don't have that audience already, it's not gonna be your biggest revenue driver necessarily, but it's trying to you closer to getting an audience that you don't already have. So it serves a purpose over here, but no matter what, it really has to still serve it purpose and it has to be a kind of a portfolio approach, right?

Every show is like a kind of a team player and knows its role.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah, it's like a stepping stone for like the broader organization.

So you started at NPR and you were charged with bringing in new programming audiences. What did new audiences mean in practiceand how did you measure success?

N'Jeri Eaton: Before I was at NPR, I'd never worked in podcasts before, but I worked in public television. So I worked in documentary film for like 15 years for moving into podcasts, and I worked for this. Really great organization called Independent Television Service, ITVS. Just a tiny, tiny portion of your tax dollars goes towards this organization to fund independent documentary filmmakers, and then those films would then end up on PBS.

So I was doing that and was really focused on bringing younger and more diverse filmmakers to PBS. So it's not just Ken Burns, God bless Ken Burns. But let someone else have a crack at it. And so I did that pretty successfully at ITVS. So that's why NPR brought me on.

And at the time my boss who recruited me was the senior vice president of programming Anya Grundmann, and she totally recognized that unless NPR's audience diversifies, gets younger and more diverse, like, you know, it's a aging audience, right? And so my job was to figure out how to do that. And a big component of that is that NPR had never developed shows to people externally, and that includes member stations. They weren't, you know, doing developing new podcasts with member stations either. So having to go in from the start and set up a system, basically intake and evaluation system for both external careers at large, but also member stations.

So that was a big part of what my role was and what I was really focused on there.

Jeff Umbro: You were very successful by most standards in that regard. I know several years later, NPR dismantled a lot of the work that you and other folks at the org had done. But those were successful shows when it came to driving audiences. And as you just said, a net new audience doesn't necessarily mean net new revenue on day one.

If you could go back, would you have done anything there differently?

N'Jeri Eaton: Some things were out of my hands and some things aren't. One of the things I did at NPR my first year was I spent like three months talking to people across the company, talking about shows, both podcasts and radio programs that were created with diverse audiences in mind, and were staffed and developed by people of color understanding like what went wrong?

Like why did that, why does that show no longer exist? And a lot of it was like, how are you properly staffing a show and setting up for success? Like how are, what are the metrics you're putting up against it? And a thing I saw consistently was that they were giving a show hosted by a person of color geared towards a black audience or Latinx audience greenlining it, but then with like not the amount of staff actually necessary to make an ongoing show.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah. No marketing budget. Half the producers that somebody else would get.

N'Jeri Eaton: And not the marketing budget. Yeah. But then expect us to perform kind of same way.

Jeff Umbro: Let's make the same amount of money, that would be great with half the resources.

N'Jeri Eaton: And they're like, oh, they're setting up for failure. Right? And so I took a lot of those lessons into how I was setting up through line before that was launched, and that showed success and kind of growing incrementally, right? But I do think like towards my later time there, I was developing a show where I know we were like, I don't know, in the haze of podcasting forays where people were stealing producers from companies. It's like 2019, 2020. And I think that rigidity around budgets and starting small kinda lapsed a bit. And I think that led to the situation I was trying to avoid. So that's a, that's something I wish I could have done, 'cause then once I left, right, it doesn't matter if I'm there or not, I would've like really prepared it for, for a long-term success.

Jeff Umbro: We touched on this a second ago, but can you walk through the first external submission process, what problems was that solving internally, and what did it change for creators on the outside? And, and if you have any specific examples, I would love to hear them.

N'Jeri Eaton: It was great that NPR was like, we wanna develop shows with people externally now, but there's no mechanism to do it. It required lots of approval and buy-in from legal department. Right? And finance and the newsroom. But most importantly, it, it meant having to like basically restart relationships with external finance reporters, producers who had either pitched stories to Newsmax or told no or try to pitch shows and were like, really doors closed, firmly in their, in their face.

And I remember I went to my first Third Coast in November of 2016 when I started, I had started like four months before. And I was telling people what I do. I'm like, oh, we have this thing called Story Lab. Please submit. And like people were cold, like be like, I don't know you. I know NPR though. I don't trust NPR. You guys aren't serious. You don't really wanna work with me.

And so I would say that first year was just try and prove to people like, no, this is not some elaborate prank. Like, I, I really wanna work with you. But it required a lot of like field and trust building first.

Jeff Umbro: Just for listeners who, who may not know, NPR is a broadcast first organization that had been working in podcasting for a long time, longer than most. However, they developed everything through like their own internal resources and talent. There's a lot of pitching that's happening left and right, where people are trying to get their stories placed everywhere. And, and so you're saying that people at Third Coast, which is both broadcast and podcast, but like much more on like the, you know, creative production side of things. It, it sounds like a lot of them had been burned historically trying to get their stuff picked up on NPR, whether it's with existing shows or pitching new ones.

So this represent, your job and your role, and one of the tasks that you had represented a big shift in how you guys had been approaching things historically, but it required you to like get buy-in from the community.

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

It didn't even require a show being green lit, but required like the process being clear and open like me following up with people, talking to people, and even if we said no, like it was transparent and open and clear process. That's actually how I met Joni of Podglomerate

Jeff Umbro: Oh, nice.

N'Jeri Eaton: She was at Mercy Chamblee in North Carolina at the time.

She pitched me a series and it was really close to getting greenlit. And even though it didn't, I think it, it was like, I think her experience is like, here's someone who listened to my idea and had several meetings with and they weren't, you know, kind of jerking me around and let the door open even though it wasn't yes to this project.

And then shortly after I joined her project, we ended up saying, greenlighting Believed with Michigan Radio. And that was our first podcast we'd done with a member station and it was massively successful.

Jeff Umbro: What does that look like? Is that, does NPR own that? Does the member station own it? Is there some kind of combo? How are you guys selling it? Does it all just get absorbed into the mothership and then like there's some amount of money that changes hands?

N'Jeri Eaton: I can't remember exactly for Believed, but it's like, you know, who is putting the more resources in? If it's like a, a shared amount of resources and you can like co-own the feed right? NPR, all the sales were handled by National Public Media, NPM, which is a sales arm for NPR. You know, we hired a story editor to work alongside their editor, the amazing Alison McAdam. And then we did all the marketing promotion of for it all, although of course working in tandem with Michigan Radio team, so truly was like a real partnership.

Jeff Umbro: Okay. I mean that's amazing and, and honestly that, in my much more limited than your experience, is what provides the most success on a show.

Okay, so fast forward, you moved to Apple Podcasts in 2020, and what was your mandate in this new role?

N'Jeri Eaton: It's really funny 'cause when you get recruited by Apple, you get recruited. They don't tell you what the job is.

Jeff Umbro: And you always say yes.

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah, it was like head of content, Apple Podcasts, and like, that sounds amazing. And I think I thought I'm gonna do what I'm doing now NPR, but with like Apple money, 'cause every show I did at NPR, which I loved, really felt like an exercise and digging through the couch cushions for change to make the show happen.

So like this could be great when Apple gonna have Apple money and then go through the process and we get there and really the mandate is. Apple Podcasts. We're a referee. We're not a player, but your role is to work with the other divisions at Apple and help them shape what their podcast strategy's gonna be.

So whether that's TV plus, retail, music, books, news. So working with each of those divisions and then additionally, this is when we're really in the thick of Apple Podcast subscriptions and bringing on internal partners under NDA to tell 'em what it is, onboard the idea of the subscription service, and then kind of launching it.

So that was my mandate going in.

Jeff Umbro: So around 2020, 2021 when N'Jeri was over at Apple, they just launched this paid subscription service. They're trying to onboard shows to use that to up engagement on the platform to make a little bit of cash to build a business model. And then simultaneously they're launching shows that have to do with other services across the platform, like you guys launched a podcast with Oprah for her new book club selection, which applied to Apple Books. At this point in time, we saw a lot of kind of cross platform productions that were meant to expose people to each of the different services that were available. And from my vantage point, the largest kind of siloed piece here was that you all started to create podcasts that might be like rewatch or additive shows to a lot of like the Apple TV properties.

And today, that's what we see the most of from my vantage point. Had this started when you were there?

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah, they had started, they were already in production of their first one, which is I believe the podcast for For All Mankind, and so that was still in production the first season when I got there. But then they were quickly starting to develop what would be the podcast for Foundation, which was the next TV series to have one.

Jeff Umbro: Also had Jason Concepcion in it.

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah. Jason's a real threat. I guess i've been following Jason.

Jeff Umbro: Did you have Apple money to create all this stuff? Did it look really different than NPR?

N'Jeri Eaton: No, no, that's really funny. I always tell who listens to get shocked. I'd never spent a single dollar while I was at Apple. So now I worked with, like Kyle Wasserman has been really at Podcasts, Apple TV plus, and you know, Kyle has a budget and so like, you know, I am almost like a consigliere for like Kyle, like, you know, sitting in on pitch meetings, like, you know, giving him my thoughts on shows while getting thoughts on pitches, kind of how to think about growing his slate. So he has money, right? Apple Books has money. All these other people have money. I don't have a budget or money.

Jeff Umbro: Okay, so you are in this like very powerful, unique position and also have no money to spend. So you're sitting in on these pitches. I'm sure there are people sending them directly to you.

We didn't really touch on this with the NPR stuff, but we should spend a few minutes talking about like the DNA of a good pitch. When somebody brings a story to you, like what are some elements that you're looking for in terms of like deliverables that somebody like puts in your inbox? And then like within those deliverables, like what are some things that might be like a little tangential that you're looking for?

N'Jeri Eaton: Are we talking about ongoing shows or are we talking about unlimited series? Right? Because it's slightly different answer.

Jeff Umbro: Let's do both.

N'Jeri Eaton: Okay. So for a limited series, I really wanna know what the story is. The tone approaches. Who do you need to tell this story? I need to see an access list. Like who do you have already? Who do you not have? Like can you get to them?

I wanna have an understanding of. If it's six episodes, give me, because it'd be super detailed, but like episode breakdown and I don't even necessarily need to hear a sizzle. But even if you have like, you know, this is story about person A. Okay. Even if you've never recorded an interview with them, does any audio of them exist? Can I see? Just so I, are you guys standing, like, how does this person sound? The person's gonna be like kind of really anchoring the series.

And then of course you wanna know how a series ends, which you may not know because you're still reporting, but like, gimme like three possible ways in which this series could end, that each kind of feel satisfying in some way. So that's why I wanna see for limited series.

And for ongoing show, to me, it's what's really, really key, more than like what it is, the format. It's really like what is the unique value proposition? Like why is it that someone, if an average person is like three to five podcasts a week, what are we giving them in this show that will make them either add this show to their rotation or drop one their shows and their rotation for this show because it's, there's could be always a lot of demand on people's attention. What makes this this series kind of rise to that level? And then the one thing I'll always say, I'm super, super wary of potential guest list, especially if it's like an interview show.

And even it's a matter of, we were like, I have the most high profile talent. Here's people in the rolodex. Those people almost never come through. And so it's like, who, you know, give me something that feels unique, that feels additive. You're gonna put, I love Nicole Byer. Right? But like Nicole Byer, she's on everything. She's great. She has like three podcasts herself. Right? So like, that's not gonna make, again, make the show feel unique or.

Jeff Umbro: It's not gonna be like, unique enough to bring in a, a zillion new listeners.

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah.

Jeff Umbro: You know, unless there's like a cool conceit behind it or something, but.

N'Jeri Eaton: Absolutely. Yeah. And a cool conceit can only take you so far, especially depending on like, can your, can your host really pull that off or not? So yeah, those are the things I would look for.

Jeff Umbro: There's only so many Jasons out there.

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah, that's right.

Jeff Umbro: When somebody's pitching you, I'm sure you have a lot of like repeat customers and people that you know from the space, but how much are you weighing concept of the show versus the team that built the show versus the track record of the team that built the show?

N'Jeri Eaton: It's interesting because at Wondery a lot of it was like someone might have a great idea, but then we're bringing a production staff to it, so it's less important about the track record. But I think a track record is helpful, right? Sometimes I, I get pictures of people who've never worked in audio before. That's fine. But who are you, who you, who's gonna be your producer or your editor? What has their work been like? This is really great. Or like, you've never done something in audio before, podcast before, but man, you're like, you're an author. You're like the foremost expert in this. Or like, it's your story and you're compelling to tell, to talk to is like, I only imagine what it's gonna be like to get you behind the mic. And so past track record is really important, but doesn't have to be the be all, end all.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah. Because I, I think about this a lot 'cause it's like, and this is not the case, I'm only using this as an example, but like Dan Taberski comes to you and he's like, I have a new show and I know he's like an amazing producer and, and has a lot to do with all of his shows, but assume it's somebody else.

Would you immediately say like, okay, how much of Missing Richard Simmons was Dan versus like Pineapple Street or something?

N'Jeri Eaton: Sometimes then I'll go to someone like a Pineapple or whoever was a producer, editor and be like, okay, tell me what was it like to do work with this person? And sometimes they'll be like, yeah. We really had to carry them all the way there. Or like they're a great collaborator, like this is their strong suit. Get someone like get them pretty like this who can handle this part. And you know, so I do a lot of like the due diligence of trying to figure out once I'm excited about something.

What's it like to work with this person and what do they need to be actually successful?

Jeff Umbro: So once you've greenlit a show, Dan Taberski comes to you and says, I want to do something on the history of, I don't know, Teletubbies or something. You're like, that's the show. We're gonna do it. What is your role after you've signed the contract? What are you contributing to at that point?

N'Jeri Eaton: I'm involved pretty early on in development. Right? So then it's. I'm really helping to further shape the show during development period, right? So how to make this strong, series as strong as possible. Like what are the gaps from the team do we need to fill? Who can really help to make this material the best? Like really creating kind of focused goals that'll make us wanna say at the end of development period, there's enough here to warrant a full series.

Jeff Umbro: Is there like a production calendar that like you're looking at and saying, I need to see this on this day, or is that something where you're, you just kind of trust the partner that you're working with to like, you know, keep you in the loop?

N'Jeri Eaton: Oh no, I'm pretty, I'm pretty in there. Right? And so like, 'cause I mean also there's a contract. Let's, let's say it's a eight week contract, i'm not gonna be like, see you in two months. Right? It's like, let's have a weekly meeting or a biweekly meeting. You know, I wanna see, you know, a pilot, like a draft of pilot episode at this point, and then I'm gonna get feedback and then what time for you to revise it based on feedback. And then let's go through it again. And then, because also what you're expecting from me is, and this is in contracts, right, a response within a certain amount of time. So I'm not leaving you hanging. So yeah.

Jeff Umbro: This makes me feel great because this is exactly how we do it, us normies over here, so we're, we're, we're doing something right. I love it.

Okay, so you went in 2021 to Netflix. Were you the first podcast development person at Netflix or did you join an existing team?

N'Jeri Eaton: I was the first head of audio and podcasts at Netflix, but there was a person, a trailblazer who's responsible for podcasts and Netflix, and that's Rae Votta who was on the marketing team at Netflix and had the great idea to start creating podcasts. When I joined, actually Rae was on parental leave, and so as a team of one, they had backfilled her position with David Moscowitz, who still works with Netflix. So it was always just like me and one other person until Rae came back and it was me and two other people. But yeah, I was the first head of audio that they hired.

Jeff Umbro: So David is filling in for Rae. You join as head of audio and at this point in time, Netflix has a handful of podcasts. They are creating some rewatch shows along with the content that's on the platform. And I think they already had Netflix is a Joke, right, which, excellent comedy, standup comedy, you know, podcast for anybody who's interested, you come in, you see all of this, where does your mind go?

What are you trying to achieve at that point? And as an aside. What marks success? I know we talked about this a little bit with Apple, but Apple has these paid platforms that they're trying to promote. Netflix also has a paid platform, but like presumably people who are listening to podcasts about Netflix shows have already seen the show.

What's the goal here?

N'Jeri Eaton: There's the Netflix goal and there was my personal goals, right? The job of podcasts at Netflix at the time was to market existing Netflix original content. That was really what the focus should be, right? And when I was getting recruited for the job, I told the person who would my boss, listen, if you just wanna keep doing companion podcasts, that is great. That's super fun. But I, I think that's gonna be a job that's better suited for someone else. Right? Like, but if you're interested and then eventually moving into originals as well, then yes, I'm the person for the job. And so she said, yes, come on. It won't be right away, but maybe like six months or a year down the line.

It's like great, 'cause for me, like first of all, who wouldn't wanna work for Netflix? But to me, I thought if Netflix could get into original podcasts, this would be like a, a dam breaker for the entire industry. Right? The, we, we will have reached hopefully people finally who have never listened to podcasts before because Netflix reach is so huge because they're so, because they have such a great promotional marketing arm.

And you know, I'm a firm believer that like a rising tide lifts all boats. And I was like, this is why it'll be crucial for industry. So I was coming, obviously, to work with paid podcasts, but my secret mission was to persuade Netflix to move into originals. And so, you know, when I came in, there's, there's some really great shows. Like I mentioned, Netflix is a Joke and You Can't Make This Up, which is a podcast, weekly podcast that's all about nonfiction, true crime content on Netflix.

Jeff Umbro: Hosted by Rebecca LaVoie, who is a former guest of this show.

N'Jeri Eaton: I don't know how Rebecca does everything that she does. It's insane.

Jeff Umbro: Rebecca is one of, I'm from New Hampshire, so she is especially one of my favorite people.

N'Jeri Eaton: And so one thing they saw is like although there were companion shows, there are also shows that had nothing to do with Netflix content. So there's a great show as, as part of Strong Black Lead is the big promotional brand that's geared towards the black content for black audiences at Netflix, right? As a great show called, Okay, Now Listen, with two hosts that was so, so fun, right? But there wasn't sometimes overlap with Netflix content, right? So think about doing a thorough evaluation of all these shows and making sure like they drive to this goal of promoting Netflix original content first, still within, like what makes you show special, but like that being consistent, all right, and also some, some other consistency around like how often shows would publish, when they would publish. And so just bring some more rigor and the kind of rigor you couldn't really do if you're just like a one man band operation as it was before. And then really focus on growing those shows and for shows that were already in development when I got there, again, really shaping with those goals in mind. And then became really clear again because, because the goal for Netflix was like, I don't know, let's market these shows. They get, it had not yet connected like the fact that this is about how you're engaging your content is between to engage people off platform. And that's really powerful.

And I know like a podcast is not gonna have the same amount listens as like, I don't know, our views as like an episode of Virgin River, which is like surprisingly one of the biggest shows of all time at Netflix, right? But it still means a significant portion of people's day continues to be consumed with Netflix, even it's not on platform. And they're consuming at a different time, right? Like people don't really watch Netflix in the morning as they're getting ready to work, but they'll listen to this podcast about their show, if you're a show on Netflix.

Jeff Umbro: And it's fostering super fans and word of mouth and bringing people back in, dinnertime conversation and all the things. What are the metrics that you guys were looking at at the time that you would use to define success?

N'Jeri Eaton: So me, it's about time spent, right? Which is not, which is important, podcasting, right? But what's really, I think, important just in terms of Netflix. So how many additional hours were people spending on the content, like we started these limit series that we would bet into the, you can't make this up.

So we did one for the Tinder Swindler, which was like the first document you found, number one worldwide. And the series was different than the doc because the series was like the origin story, like how did this guy actually become like, go to say swindler ways, which was never covered in the film. So we'll say like, I can't remember the numbers offhand, but like this many more hours of content were consumed for the show than what you could have ever anticipated for. So that's, that was like the biggest metric of success for us.

Jeff Umbro: And I know this is after your time, but like a lot of what Netflix is doing now is trying to get into sports content or doing after shows on YouTube for Squid Game, for example, all of which is meant to continue to develop the IP that they have and foster new communities. And, and as you experience with NPR and with Apple, how to bring in new audiences. What is your viewpoint of bringing podcasts onto Netflix, onto on platform, as you guys call it?

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah. I am in full support of podcasts being on Netflix. That being said, I'm not a fan of this exclusivity that they demand. I don't think it's helpful overall for podcasting and the industry itself, for these creators who are gonna be signing this deal. I think it's challenging. You have to kind of start over elsewhere and move your audience over. You may not get them back if the deal were elapsed. Netflix is not known being the most transparent in terms of sharing numbers, and I think we've seen over years Netflix has had a lot of challenges around talk format content, right? Whether that is Hasan Minhaj's show or Michelle Wolf, there's a lot of previous talk show content on Netflix that didn't last long. That kinda content struggles on Netflix already with really big names, right? And not that these shows are gonna bring on aren't big names, but I just worry that these shows will have a similar struggle getting audience on this platform.

Jeff Umbro: And in 2023, you moved over to Wondery. I know you were in charge of co-productions over there, and eventually, you know, serials and you were there up until earlier this year when, when Wondery, you know, went under. I know that we've spent a lot of time talking about development, but like I, I think it's really important to also talk about what your role was at Wondery and what Wondery's particular set of business problems were, obviously one of the largest publishers out there, but also Wondery had Wondery Plus, which, according to at least one previous guest of this show had something like 400,000 paying subscribers on that platform. So you, that actually opened up the doors for you guys to greenlight a lot more things than you may otherwise have been able to, presumably.

What did that particular cocktail of decision-making look like at Wondery? What were the kinds of things that you were trying to make?

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah, you're looking for shows and limited, because I only worked on limited series that are really strong stories with unexpected twists and turns that will reach a broad audience, meet download goals. Right? Also have high potential for IP development, right, which Wondery, I don't think anyone in that company could hold a candle to the number of projects that were developed for TV and film, and would be good for Wondery Plus, both retaining existing subscribers and hopefully acquiring new subscribers. So that's kinda the overall mandate. And I think one of the challenges as well, 'cause as head of co co-production, I started, you know, a lot of it was like work with newsrooms to source these stories. Right. Wondery done work previously with LA Times with Bloomberg, we had just announced First Look deal with Advance Local media, which owns newspapers and websites in like 16 different markets. And so as someone who went to journalism school, has worked for journalism organizations like, this is great, but also it's like it's hard. It is really hard.

And as much as we were talking about earlier, 2020 was like the boom times, 2023 was already the lean times. Right? So I started having a conversation with the newsroom and turns out they are having layoffs and the people I was talking to were laid off. I cannot tell you how many times that happened.

Jeff Umbro: 2022. 2023 was brutal.

N'Jeri Eaton: It was brutal. Yeah. As you can imagine, like even though you know, newsrooms you think could move fast 'cause they have to break, move fast than news like now it comes to legal stuff or like building trust that allows you to kind of be, had deeply embedded partnerships. So you know, you, you work with somebody like, this is great, and then you're like, well now there's new managers and new publishers.

So it was just, it really made it.

Jeff Umbro: And, and even if they're amazing, it's like starting over every time.

N'Jeri Eaton: It's starting over every time. So that was, I think, what some of the challenge. And I will say that like I felt like I was running away for layoffs, right? Like Apple doesn't layoff, right? But like at Netflix, I survived three rounds of layoffs in six weeks. NPR had layoffs a year and a half after I left. You know, even though I was at Wondery, Wondery didn't have layoffs at the time. You know, Amazon Music had layoffs. They had this whole investment in Amp, which is the Clubhouse, remember Clubhouse? Competitor. So like, you know, layoffs were all around us. So I was like, okay, it's gonna come for Wondery at some point, just because we work for Amazon.

But it felt like it did feel like a really secure place, right? Because they did have a model that seemed, that really seemed to work between a mix of subscriptions, IP and sales, but not wholly reliant only on one.

Jeff Umbro: From an outsider's perspective, like if anybody was gonna make this work, it was, it was Wondery and Amazon and ART19 and everything. And, and to be honest, I think that it did work. It was also a drop in the bucket for Amazon's broader business. So you were a part of the latest round of layoffs at Wondery or the layoff at Wondery.

And since then you laid out your own shingle. Will you tell us a little bit about Type C studios?

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah. So I always said to myself and to my family, like, all right, why don't you buy a last. Corporate job. First of all, where do you go after you work for Amazon, Netflix, and Apple? But I really felt like I wanted to do just some, either maybe not in audio at all anymore, maybe go back to public television at all, but I just felt like it was gonna be my last job.

And then after the layoffs, I just had this idea, like probably then that same week, like I loved what I was doing. I loved the team I was working with. I didn't feel done, but I was done with the idea of going to another company and either trying to execute a vision that may not be reachable or a vision that was that I didn't quite agree with, or leadership that I didn't quite agree with. And I was like, lemme put my money where my mouth is, like if I think I can do better, do better. Let me start my own thing. And so I started Type C Studios. So you know, most people are familiar with the type A or B personality types, but there's actually like five or six different personality types and type C personalities are people who are creative, collaborative and bring organization to chaos, which I feel like really defines who I am. And so. Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's great.

Also, I got it from a Instagram video because there's type C moms, right? Because I'm a mom, there's type C moms who are like you. You do all the great, beautiful organization things and all these fun activities, and you try to stick to it. But then once your towel makes a mess, you are like. And that's just that. That's it. Like I'm not gonna be like so rigid about it. So yeah, started Type C Studios with actually two of my colleagues, so Anhelo Reyes, who really headed up a lot of our marketing efforts at Wondery and was previously at like Paramount and Nickelodeon and Viacom, and Tonja Thigpen, who headed up our video podcast at Wondery, but also I hired Tanja at Apple Podcasts and convinced her to kind of move from the music industry to the podcast industry. And so, between the three of us, we are doing consulting on editorial production, manage optimization, video podcasts, marketing, but also doing production for hire. So it's really exciting.

I mean, we're brand new. We started in November, but we already have several clients and really excited about the. We're building how we want to figure out a different way to operate And that really respects people and, and as individuals, everything we have to kind of manage, personal life and the work without burning each other out, burning anyone else out, and really committed to narrative audio and how do you make it sustainable.

Jeff Umbro: Congratulations. This is a huge step and the hardest part is just saying that you're gonna do it. So kudos to you and to the whole team. It's very cool.

So, so how do you make narrative work?

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah. That's an ongoing question. Right, and I do think, like the lessons I've learned from the different places I've worked at is you really have to think about how to leverage the sources available to you, and try to do the work in a way that's lean but sustainable, and think about distribution as like, you know, I think the days of dropping something in a solo feed and then hoping for the best or putting a ton of marketing dollars is kind of behind.

And it's, it's, it's really about thinking about these shows. Either that's limited series or, or many seasonal shows is really just like this brand that has to be multi-platform. That's kinda how I'm thinking about it now. I'm trying to orient the work around it.

Jeff Umbro: I'm also curious about how this works when you are considering bringing video into the mix.

N'Jeri Eaton: I have a client right now that I'm working with that is actually prior to our formation of our business, but they're working with The Athletic on helping some shows with them and it's really different than what I've done working in the last couple years because these aren't limited series. They're ongoing weekly shows with a video component and, but the great thing about The Athletic is like they're already doing video podcasts, so it's not like having to convince them why it's important. And it's like how to get it done. And the other thing that's really interesting for The Athletic is like they publish shows there multiple times a week, right? Some shows, you know, three or four times a week, especially depending on what sport they're cover and, and, and season.

And so it's also thinking about like, how do you create a concept that is, is flexible enough to allow for multiple episodes a week, especially if it's not something that's super driven by news? So that's been really interesting and I think when it comes to video and narrative shows, that's really important to me. It's something I was really focusing on my last few months at Wondery. My frustration with the industry is that we saw that more moral scenes moving onto to YouTube. That's where younger listeners were. That's where more diverse audiences were. We started developing shows from YouTube. Right? But talk shows, it's like, okay, but how do you then get those, that audience to want to learn, learn, learn to, like, and love narrative shows? Right, right.

Are we expecting 'em like, okay, now I'm now, I'm 28. I'm an old person now, so lemme go over to, you know, Apple Podcasts and listen to a podcast there. No. You have to create these things where they're at right now. And so to me that's an a, a big area which we're putting our focus on for Type C Studios is how do we make narrative video shows that are, that are engaging but not a super heavy lift production wise, not just basically starting to make documentary films, 'cause I don't think there's, they're interchangeable and cost effective. So that's been a really big focus for, for us. And right now we, I mean, we just put together a pitch for creator who has a huge TikTok audience and wants to expand to a longer narrative video podcast. It's exciting. It's an exciting challenge, right? Because here's, here's a creator who already is in this space, but just doesn't do long form. So how do we marry the things that they're already really good at as a creator on these platforms with narrative? So how do we do that in a way that feels authentic to him, authentic to this audience, but it's sustainable in terms of like production, workload, and workflow?

Jeff Umbro: Are you hiring? I'd love to work on that stuff.

N'Jeri Eaton: Maybe. Let's see if we'll get the job.

Jeff Umbro: You are focused on some of the most interesting areas in podcasting right now, and I'm a broken record when it comes to this, but it is very clear that the most listened-to shows are the really well done narrative podcasts. It is equally clear that the only things that the bigger organizations care to monetize is the weekly chat shows, and there seems to be an enormous disconnect there, and nobody seems to be trying to address it.

I'm guilty. I am very much working on whatever projects come through our door as opposed to, to doing something about it. So I'm glad that you are trying 'cause, yeah, 'cause then I get to watch and see, and I do think it's, it's very impressive what you've done over the years and I cannot wait to see what you do here.

If any of our listeners want to follow along, where should they do that?

N'Jeri Eaton: Sure you can reach out to me via email. It's my name, njerii@typecstudios.com, Instagram and LinkedIn, which is my full name, N'Jeri Eaton, and we have a website, but it is a pretty bland, square space landing page, but maybe the time this airs, it'll no longer be that. typecstudios.com.

Jeff Umbro: This is incredible and thank you so much for joining us. I wasn't joking. I've wanted to talk to you for years, so I'm, I'm glad that we finally got to do it on camera.

N'Jeri Eaton: Me too.

Jeff Umbro: and we'll genuinely do this again very soon 'cause I want to hear how all this goes.

N'Jeri Eaton: Yeah, and I'm unleashed 'cause you tried to get me earlier. If any of these places let me do it, there would've been a PR rep on the call being like, she can't answer that. N'Jeri, don't answer that. So.

Jeff Umbro: Amazing. Well, thank you N'Jeri. Really appreciate it.

N'Jeri Eaton: You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Jeff Umbro: Thank you so much for joining us. To find N'Jeri Eaton online, you can look her up on LinkedIn or head to typecstudios.com.

For more podcast related news info and takes you can follow me on LinkedIn at Jeff Umbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of the Podglomerate. If you're looking for help producing marketing or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at podglomerate.com.

Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com or follow us on all socials @podglomeratepods. This episode was produced by Chris Boniello and myself, Jeff Umbro. This episode was edited and mixed by José Roman. Thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, Erin Weiss, and Sheeba Joseph, and a special thank you to Dan Christo. 

Thank you all for listening, and I’ll catch you all in a few weeks.