Flat Earth, The Book of Enoch, False Prophets, and Signs of True Revival with Dr. Michael Brown

Well, Dr.

Michael Brown, thank you so much for being on the broadcast.

You know, before we jump in and talk about your new book, I just want to just.

This is going to be an amazing conversation, but I want to start by you defining what exactly revival is.

You know, I made a movie entitled the Domino Revival, and I was able to ask, you know, some of the most premier leaders and revivalists of our generation, people who are movers and shakers, and they all had such a different definition.

And we try to show that in the movie.

But, man, I have been dying to get the answer directly from you as somebody who has been laboring, you know, for this definition and somebody that's, you know, I go back in the archives of your life and all the things that you've accomplished for the kingdom, and I feel like, man, if there's anybody's definition about what revival is that we need, it's yours for this generation.

So how would you define it?

Yeah.

In its essence, revival is a season of unusual, divine visitation.

Everything flows out of that.

People talk about God stepping down from heaven, or Jesus came to our village.

The Holy Spirit indwells us as believers as we worship.

The Holy Spirit's in our midst.

On a certain level, God fills the heavens and the earth.

And yet in times of revival, it's a season of unusual divine visitation.

God comes with intense power, with intense conviction, with intense transformation.

Everything is amped up.

The salvations are radical.

The deliverance is radical.

The repentance is the deepest you've ever seen.

The joy is the highest you've ever seen.

And you can say, it started here and it ended here.

That's when we talk about the Welsh Revival from 1904 to 1905, or I was part of the Browns Revival from 1995 to 2000.

It's not always absolutely clear.

Sometimes it can wane or transfer out in different ways in terms of the ending.

But something happened.

God came, and it's this unusual visitation.

Things you prayed for and longed for and cried out for, sometimes for generations.

Suddenly, they're happening in front of your eyes, and it's as if everything in the Bible that you knew was true.

It's really true.

It's really happening in front of your eyes.

It's almost like you call your friend after a Sunday service and say, jesus is al.

We all know.

He's like, no, no, no.

He's really alive.

He's really.

He's in the car with me.

It becomes that real.

And that's why in a short period of time, you can often see more things happen just, just in, in a month of revival than you see in years and years of your best work.

So you have to do what you do day by day.

You know, look at it that you, you walk all during a time of famine.

You walk miles and miles to a spring and to get water to carry it back.

But, oh, if you could get some thunder showers, think of what would happen.

That's what revival is like.

Oh, that is so deep that that definition is rich and it's needed, you know, so one of the things I do on my broadcast is really just blow up the deceptions.

And, you know, there's so much in the body of Christ as, you know, people, you know, can be incredibly manipulative.

And leaders use the term revival in know.

One thing my wife and I have been grieved about for years and years is this concept that, you know, churches will use the term revival almost as like a money maker, you know, and, and, and you know, I know we're, we're jumping right in.

But, you know, there's this concept that we've observed where people are like, oh, we're having a revival, and then it's like, how many offerings can we collect in the revival week?

And my wife and I are, are kind of like old school Pentecostals, I guess.

And, and so where we come from, as we got older and then we became lead pastors, we.

We noticed that some pastors legitimately have a heart for revival.

And yet there were other pastors that it seemed as if their annual revival was more of an annual fundraiser that they were using the term revival for.

And so, you know, what is your concept of churches holding revivals?

And I want to be fair.

I believe, you know, some have an authentic, real heart for it.

I think others, it's more gimmicky.

You know, what, what's your thoughts on that?

You can no more hold a revival than you can hold a hurricane.

You can no more schedule a revival than you can schedule an earthquake.

Revival is not something that people work up.

Revival is something that God sends down.

And Mike, when we moved, so I'm in New York originally, then lived in Maryland, outside of D.C.

and then moved down to Pensacola, Florida in my early 40s.

My wife and I are family.

And it was a shocker to see, kind of the church custom that maybe August you'd be driving down the street, you'd see A sign revival September 11th to 15th, there was a schedule for next month.

And then you see another sign revival September 18th to 20th.

And it was just a custom meetings.

Were holding a series of special meetings with a special speaker, special music and, yes, special offerings.

And now here's the problem with it.

Let's put.

Let's just say it's all legit.

It's not a bad fundraising thing.

It's okay.

The problem is you get emotionally psyched, you get charged, you get.

Yeah, yeah.

But nothing really happens on the inside.

There's not a real deep, lasting encounter with God.

And that now produces a downward trend because after the emotional high, there's nothing to carry it.

Revival absolutely ties in with emotion, of course, but it's emotion because of an encounter with God and the truth of the word.

And that's the massive difference.

Look, if it was that easy to produce the revival, we wouldn't be reading about revivals in history.

Wow.

We wouldn't be praying for years and years and years for God to visit.

Now there's the other error on the other side that Charles Finney encountered.

Finney, who lived from 1792 to 1875.

Finney encountered the other side, which is there's nothing you can do to bring about a revival.

God just sovereignly sends it.

When he does so, you kind of sit on your hands.

No, you do what you know how to do on a day to day basis.

Love God, love your neighbor, win the loss, make disciples while you cry out and say, God, there must be more.

Our city's going to hell.

Our young people are turning their backs on you.

Our nation doesn't know you because the light is not shining.

Oh, God, visit us.

And the reason I wrote my new book, Seize the Moment, is because when God comes, it's a unique thing.

You don't want to miss it.

And early on in the Brownsville revival, there was an article in Charisma magazine.

So you have to remember this was in 1995.

It was right before the cell phone Internet explosion.

So news was not happening and spreading instantly the way it is now.

Right.

So I read in the article a quote from Steve Hill.

Steve and I knew each other.

He was the evangelist God used to ignite this.

Steve and I knew each other through our mutual friend, Leonard Ravenhill, author of the classic book why Revival Carries.

I had been very close to Brother Len the last five years of his life.

The most extraordinary revivalist man of prayer I ever met.

And he had these cutting little sayings.

His famous question, are the things you're living for worth Christ dying for?

Or the man who's intimate with God will never be intimidated by man These sharp little sayings.

And when Steve was asked in charisma, why did you cancel all your preaching meetings all around the world?

Why did you stop what you were doing and just stay here in Pensacola?

He said, the opportunity of a lifetime must be seized during the lifetime of the opportunity.

And I said, that sounds like Ravenhill, but I never heard him say it.

So I called his widow, Martha, and she said, no, she didn't hear him say it either.

When Steve and I got to talking, he said, mike, a few weeks before Len had his stroke and then subsequently died, he turned to me one day and said, stevie, the opportunity of a lifetime must be seized during the lifetime of the opportunity.

Because Steve would be preaching in Columbia.

He'd been a missionary in South America.

He'd be preaching in Columbia, God moving it.

And he'd come back and tell Leonard Ravenhill, brother Len, I felt like revival was right about to happen.

I felt like if we stayed a few more days, we could have a visitation.

And Len said to them, why are you here?

Why'd you leave?

So when God visited in Pensacola, it's because you can't just hold it, you can't just produce it.

You can't just turn it on.

If it was that easy, especially in America, we would have it every day.

We would package it.

We would have Internet revival coming your way now, live streaming in three.

No, you can't do that.

You can pray, you can cry out, you can do what you know how to do.

But then God comes, that season of unusual visitation.

And the very first thing that normally indicates something unusual, there's this presence that wasn't there and nobody wants to leave.

A colleague of mine in Colorado, when he heard about Asbury last year, they were having a move of God in their church, but he was hungry for more.

And he said, God, what about us?

And they started on Sunday morning and ended 8 o'clock the next morning.

The service just went on.

And people stayed through the 8:00 clock.

Literally almost a 24 hour service.

Yeah.

And then, because revival comes to set things right, remember, it is reviving, it is bringing back to life.

Like Jesus says to Sardis In Revelation 3, you have a reputation for being alive, yet you're dead.

Laodiceans say, I'm rich and priest involved, have need of nothing.

You don't realize you're wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

Right?

Ephesus, you've left your first love.

So it is a bringing back to life of God's people.

And that's why the next thing you almost always see is deep conviction of sin.

Exactly.

Because something is wrong and the Holy Spirit is exposing it.

And then out of that, you have the radical transformations that bring joy and freedom.

And then as the church is changed, our witness is now changed.

And now you see that same spirit coming down in the workplace.

You start to see the radical conversion of sinners.

This is what happens.

And when you see God moving, you can't say, well, we'll just meet again next week.

No, no, we're not going anywhere.

Or, let's meet again tonight and the next night.

And before you know it, the thing can be going on for months or years.

I love that.

I absolutely love that.

Well, guys, I want to show you this.

It seize the moment.

This is the.

The new book.

And there's an urgency behind this book.

You know, that's why I have Dr.

Michael Brown here on the broadcast, because there is an urgency.

And I know you spoke about that.

You know, 25 year history to Brownsville.

For those of you who saw the Domino revival movie.

You saw that we went to Brownsville and conducted services there and had some really powerful moments.

You guys can go back in the archives and see Doc.

Dr.

Michael Brown there, you know, in real time.

And so you kind of have this lineage, this history of revival, different epicenters in the United States.

You mentioned Asbury.

But there's like an urgency right now, and I felt it.

You know, when this book came in, there was just something different.

Seize the moment.

And.

And so can you maybe talk about why now?

Like what?

You know, let's talk about that moment.

Because for me, people, somehow or another, I got sucked into the deliverance movement.

And I thought it was hilarious because I never considered myself a deliverance guy.

I always consider myself a deep repentance guy.

And I was going around the country drawing people to a place of absolute surrender and repentance and trying to communicate the extremity by which Christ communicated repentance, right?

Like, hey, if your hand won't stop sinning, cut it off.

So the rest of your body goes to heaven.

You know, that type of language.

And one of the statements that I went viral for is 99% obedience is 100% disobedience.

And so I really went across the country calling people to 100% surrender.

And then in the midst of that repentance, demons would manifest like crazy.

And somehow that sucked me into the deliverance movement.

I'd say, well, I'm a gospel guy, not a deliverance guy, but wherever the gospel is being declared, I Think with that level of wholeheartedness, like, hey, what would it look like if we actually said go and sin no more?

You know, instead of just struggle with it for the next 25 years?

Because I think here in American evangelicalism, we've excused our sin and we've really, you know, kind of played with it and went more the route of, like, motivational speaker versus, you know, radical surrender.

And so for me, I was going around the country doing that, and.

And I felt that urgency.

You know, even the impetus for my movie was being in prayer here in New York City and seeing a vision of this huge domino being pushed down.

And then each domino was dropping around the country as people were saying yes to Jesus wholeheartedly.

And so, you know, I.

I feel like there's something stirring in the spirit.

I'm connecting with that.

I know you are as well.

So maybe you could talk about, like, what are you sensing?

Why.

Why the book now?

Yeah.

So let me just briefly go back.

What was happening in Brownsville.

Yeah.

God had promised me in 83 that I would be part of a revival that would touch the world.

Wow.

And I longed and prayed and cried out and everywhere I traveled preached repentance and these long altar calls of people crying out to God, surrendering their lives and representation.

So when Brownsville came, it was the dream come true that the thing that I've been longing for.

And you have to picture this.

A traditional assembly of God church in the south.

Pensacola, not the easiest city to get to.

It's only got a regional airport, and people would get outside the building, standing online beginning at six in the morning to wait for the doors to open at 6 in the evening.

This went on for years, but the services started seven in the evening to go past midnight every night.

I mean, it was extraordinary.

More than 300,000 different people repented at the altar.

We had people from 130 nations coming.

And it wasn't known for divine healing.

It was people getting right with God, thank God for healing, but that wasn't the focus.

So in the midst of the revival, you know that there are many things that can hinder revival that can cut it short.

And it's this very holy line that you walk to give place to the spirit, but not to disorder, not to the wrong things or you don't want to get burnt out and exhausted.

And anyway, in the midst of it, towards the end, I started to write a book on all the things not to do if you wanted to see the move of God continue.

I just started writing it, and Then got caught up in other projects, then revival ended there.

I never got back to it.

When I was teaching one day in New York City about 20 years ago, I just felt the spirit say to me, you're going to need to finish that book.

Wow.

And I said, that means I get to be in another move, that I'm going to see it in my lifetime.

So I began to Sense probably about 2019, I was very grieved because I said the state of America.

I don't need to go on and talk about the state of the nation.

We all live here and the state of much of the church in the nation.

But in many ways, we become better known for scandals.

We become better known for superficiality.

We've been become better known for political support than we have for being gospel people living holy lives.

And it brings reproach to the name of the Lord.

We're watching the younger generation get sucked up by the world in crazy agendas.

TikTok has done a better job of discipling our kids than.

Than many of our many of us have.

So it's an urgent time.

We know that.

And I was grieved because I said, we're not seeing the hunger and the thirst and the brokenness in the body to equal the urgency of the situation.

And I've seen much more of that in the years leading up to Brownsville.

I started to see something rising in late 2019, I began preaching on God coming as a refiner's fire.

And the next thing, all hell breaks loose.

In2020, we had Covid, we had the race riots, we had the political upheaval, the events of January 6th, the whole nation shaking, and then scandal after scandal in the church.

I'm not saying this to throw stones at people.

And it was only subsequently I looked back and thought, the refiner's fire has been working and bringing all this stuff up to the surface.

And then I began to see Mike in my.

In my mind's eye.

Not an open vision, which I don't have, but just a clear picture of my mind's eye.

I saw thousands of holy fires all over America.

I didn't just see a Brownsville or a Toronto.

I saw thousands of places where God was moving all over America.

And I said, okay, this next move is going to be in thousands of different places, and pastors and leaders who have never experienced this are going to need some guidance.

And I've got to get this book finished because I've been in it.

I've been in the thick of it.

I've lived it out.

And here are 25 principles.

If we'll hold to these, if we'll live these out as pastors, leaders, as individual believers, then the fire that falls we can cultivate.

Leviticus 6.

Yes, I was just going to ask you about that.

Yeah, it must not go out three times.

God says that.

Why?

Well, on the one hand, it symbolized 247 worship of God.

But on the other hand, when you read through the end of the ninth chapter, the first fire on the altar was sent by God.

God sent the fire, and God consumed Aaron's sacrifices.

So the fire on the altar was divine fire.

So God said, never let it go out.

Let it not be man's fire, but God's fire.

So I felt I've got to finish.

Seize the moment.

I wrote the book to come out end of last year, ended up getting released at the beginning of this year.

But a year ago, I got on the air.

As I had been traveling across America, I was in church after church that's experiencing a move of God.

Not because I was there, I was witnessing it.

Young people flocking to the altars, people repenting and getting right with God.

Spontaneous baptisms every week.

And I said, okay, the first wave of this next revival movement, it's already here.

Obviously you had a thriving church, many others, but I was seeing it in so many places.

And because of my daily radio show, we've got a wide range of listeners, right?

A lot of hardcore Pentecostal charismatics, others.

I'm the only charismatic they trust, skeptics, mockers, critics, the whole bit.

So I am circumspect in proclaiming things.

But I got on the air and I said, listen, it's very clear to me, and I want to say it.

The beginning of the first wave of the next revival has hit America, and we're in the early stages, but it is the beginning of the first wave of the next revival.

Eight days after that, Asbury happened and I got back on the air and I said, hey, hey.

Did I tell you or did I tell you?

That was just a divine exclamation point.

And it's not supposed to just be one place.

Of course, soon enough it got shut down with everybody flocking there.

But we are going to be seeing this.

And literally, if we don't get this right, if the Church of America does not broadly embrace what the Spirit is doing, that could be the end of America as we know it, Right?

It literally could be the last hope, the last breath of America.

And when you mentioned Domino Revival for years.

I had this internal vision for years because God promised me that I would see a gospel based moral and cultural revolution in my lifetime.

We need to be some kind of pushback.

And that can only happen through revived church.

I saw dominoes falling in the negative sense.

Wow.

Falling across the country in terms of moral and spiritual collapse.

But then I saw through the gospel move the dominoes standing back up across the country.

Come on.

And the only way that can happen is with a revived church.

Right.

So this is it.

As God's moving, God moves in your local church, God moves in your life.

You've got to seize the moment.

You've got to.

You've got to pour fuel on the fires of revival because this literally could be the last breath for America.

Yes.

I almost started weeping when you were talking about Leviticus 6 because, you know, that's such a theme recently.

And you know, for those of you that watch, I mean, I've amassed hundreds of thousands of followers by releasing prophetic words that would then come to pass.

And I don't regard myself as a prophet, but just simply somebody who says, okay, God, what are you doing in the earth?

How can I narrate it?

And so last Sunday, I was sharing with our church.

You know, I'm originally from Indiana.

David Wilkerson was, you know, kind of originally from the Midwest as well.

So God has a way of like exporting us to New York City, I guess.

But.

But I had this vision of this wave hitting New York City.

But when I first got to New York, so I had been raised around Lake Michigan.

So a lake is very different than the ocean.

And I remember trying to baptize our first disciples here in New York City.

And I didn't realize that the, that the water recedes.

And so you could be standing up to your waist in water, but it'll recede all the way down to the sand.

And we were basically pushing people into the sand, missing the timing of the waves in the early days of the church.

My point in saying that though is this Sunday I was on stage and I started feeling in the spirit like that recession where there was a drawback before the formation of a large wave.

And I really felt like the Lord was telling me to tell my church that, that.

That drawing is a drawing back to intercession, a drawing back to prayer, a drawing back to fasting and longing and desperation and repentance.

Repentance.

Because before you ever see the formation of a wave, there's a.

There's a drawing back.

And I really feel like what we're.

What's happening right now, and I want to really honor the vision that you gave, is that many people are feeling drawn to prayer, drawn to the secret place.

I've been getting hundreds of messages from people in our text community, in our email saying, I'm at work and I'm just using my entire lunch break to pray.

You know, I'm.

I'm literally underneath my kitchen table and with, you know, just praying.

I'm finding myself in the bathroom praying.

And I believe God is really uniting people on a heart level for this desperation.

And, you know, generationally, when you talk about seize the moment, and you said, I was there, you know, I was there in Brownsville and I made a manual for revival.

Guys, this is more than just a promo for the, For a book.

This is a general in the faith who has a lifetime of experience that God is putting in these books now for so that we don't miss it.

Because the fastest route to extinguishing a revival is from know it alls who try to impose, you know, and I think there can be an immaturity.

And I'm speaking to the millennial pastors and the Gen Xers, you know, and, and this.

I think sometimes what will happen is we ignore the.

The wisdom of the sages that God has in this generation.

And Dr.

Michael Brown, I want to honor you publicly right now, and I just want to commission everybody.

The link is in the chat.

It's in the description of this video.

You've got to get seized the moment.

Don't assume that you've cornered the market on revival.

And I think there's a little bit of arrogance, and I just kind of feel led by the Holy Spirit to speak into this now.

A little bit of arrogance.

You know, you go to people's Instagram and they have, I'm a revivalist, you know, and, and.

And it's like, I'm not trying to kill the passion or kill the desire, but I am trying to kill the pride.

And I think there's a level of humility.

I mean, seize the Moment as mandatory reading for V1 church leaders and those that are underneath my leadership.

And so can you maybe speak to them, the people watching right now, about, you know, don't assume, you know, don't assume that you're the expert on revival.

You know, why the necessity to really get into seize the moment.

Yeah.

So here's the reality.

It would be one thing if I was sitting on the sidelines talking about these old days in Pensacola and, you know, Sitting with nostalgia.

I'm on the front lines, man.

I'm burning as great as I've ever burned.

Exactly.

I'm seeing God move wherever you reach America, around the world.

I just came back from India, my 29th trip there, and the brother said that they were most impacting meetings that they've ever had.

That's it.

I'm in the thick of this now.

And I'm shouting as loudly as we can, as I can.

Look, I've lived in it, in the intensity of revival for four or five years before that, and outpouring for three months and six days that got cut short.

That's what put the desperation in me when I saw things get cut short.

Even at the end of Pensacola.

Everything God did there was a temporary split between the pastor, John Kilpatrick, and me leading the school.

One reason is we got so exhausted, we were going 70, 80 hours a week for years and years and years.

And I preached about this.

I preached about the danger of overworking yourself, but thinking, you know, this is different.

No, no, it's never different.

There are no exceptions.

The same with sin.

You realize, hey, the same way my good friend fell, and this one fell, I could fall.

When I teach you about sexual immorality, that's the first lesson.

It can happen to you as easily as anybody else.

If you play with fire, you will get burned.

And I've watched now, you know, I'm almost 69 years old.

I'm fresh and ready to run.

I work out with guys in their 20s and they throw up.

I mean, I'm doing my best to be a good steward because the best years are right ahead, and I want to be ready for the decades to come.

But please hear me.

I've watched all the people come and go.

I've watched the shooting stars.

There was this great poem by Amy Carmichael called Scars.

If you've never read it, just search online.

She was a missionary to India for decades and died there.

And she's like, oh, yeah, we heard you're the rising star.

But you don't have any scars.

You have any scars.

And I've watched.

Oh, this one's different.

This move is going to bypass repentance.

No, it does.

There is no move that bypasses repentance.

Yeah, come on.

It may be that people are so beaten down and discouraged that God just pours out love and grace and love and grace to get them healthy enough.

But as soon as they're healthy enough, you better believe he's gonna claw out the surgeon's knife because Sin in our spirit is far more deadly than cancer in our bodies.

I've warned the people privately, and for whatever reason, they don't hear.

It's interesting.

My online constituency.

And by God's grace, we're able to reach millions every week, or online constituency, the number one demographic, aside from Facebook, which is a lot of older ladies, is 25 to 34 years.

That's it.

So I'm talking to a younger generation, Gen Z, millennial all the time.

This, again, is not just.

I'm sitting on the sidelines wishing for the old days and jealous for those succeeding.

No, I want you and everyone in your generation to do things I've dreamed about.

But look, when I used to teach in New York city in the 2004, 5, 6, when I used to preach for David Wilkerson in the 90s regularly, there were times when I would walk the streets of the city late at night for hours, praying for revival, praying for God to come.

And obviously I was one tiny element.

So many others prayed.

I want to see God do see things through people whose names we don't know.

Let Jesus be glorified.

Let him get the credit.

That's not it.

But when I stand by people and warn them and say, you cannot do this with the flesh, right?

There are no celebrity pastors here.

Come on, you cannot bypass the cross.

And they're like, no, no, look at our success.

And then I watch them crash and burn.

And I'm not there to say, I told you so.

I'm there to say, hey, let's pick up the broken pieces.

But there are no exceptions.

What struck me when I originally put together a list of 30 items that ended up making them 25 for Seize the Moment, how to fuel the fires of revival.

I went and read Finney's sermon on hindrances to revival, and I think he had 20.

And I was amazed at how much overlap there was.

It's because it's the same principles.

We cannot play with fire.

You read the Book of Proverbs.

I don't care who you are.

I don't care how famous you are.

I don't care how big your platform is.

I don't care how fast growing your church is.

If you don't follow the principles, if you let your personal devotional life get eroded, you'll fall.

It's going to happen.

If you let pride enter in.

If you think, I've got the method and I can control it, and on the contrary, I've seen people who've honored the Lord who kept the Fire burning in their private lives, who walk in humility, who welcome the Holy Spirit, who are grounded in the word, and decades later, they're burning bright.

And their churches are healthier and stronger than ever.

I'm not impressed with a shooting star.

I've been around too long for that.

I long to see lasting fruit.

And Mike, every single week in the revival because God would come in power and bodies would be flying as we laid hands on people at the end of the night, the power of God was there.

Every week we tell people we don't care if you shake or fall.

The only question is, one year from now, how are you living?

Right.

The question is, how are you living when you walk out this building?

And Steve Hill will tell people the true test of revival, the true test of an evangelist is five or ten years down the line.

Right.

I can introduce you to our workers all around the world who were touched in Brownsville 25 years ago or longer and have been on the mission field bearing fruit and burning bright for over 25 years.

That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

Not just a momentary excitement or people were blessed for a few weeks.

I'm talking about decades down the line when you raise your kids differently because you were touched as a child yourself.

That's what we need to see, that kind of lasting fruit.

And it does not come through playing games or thinking that we're the big shots or we figured it all out.

Look, we can have social media followings of hundreds of millions.

The biggest social media followings in the world are celebrities, but they're not changing the world.

So we have the numbers, but our lives being changed.

Is there lasting fruit?

And as a word based person, you know, that's.

That's what matters.

That's it.

Are the foundation solved?

Because otherwise it's going to be here today.

Watch it grow, watch it collapse.

Or it's going to be massive in numbers, but there's no substance.

Right.

So what does Jesus say in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13, in Mark 4 and Luke 8, that when trouble and testing comes because of the word.

Yeah.

Then they quickly follow it.

Well, what if trouble and testing doesn't come for years?

What if you build this great thing filled with people, but if there's not the foundation of repentance.

Right.

Once the shaking comes, that could be 10 years into your ministry.

Everything's going to be gone.

And then what?

Oh, well, I asked you to assassinate pride, and I will tell you mission accomplished.

That was so needed, though some of you Guys need to replay that whole section of this interview over and over and over to get that in your spirit.

Because John, chapter 15, first fruit that remains.

That's been my number one prayer.

You know, we have enough eloquent sermons.

We've got people who are good with words, wordsmiths, but we desperately need fruit that remains.

And I love that you just pretty much unloaded your clip on Pride.

Because, you know, real quick story is I.

As I was touring the country a couple years ago, I had a very humbling moment where I came crawling into an event in the Pacific Northwest.

I just didn't feel it.

I was personally discouraged, I was wore out, I was tired, and I just got up on stage and I said, you know, I'm just going to sort of get through this, God.

And that's not my.

Everybody who knows me knows I, you know, I go all in and I leave it all on the altar.

And.

But that particular event, I said, you know, God, I just can't.

And it was a quote unquote revival style event.

They had brought me in large 10 event.

And here's Mike Signorelli, the revival revivalist.

And I just said, God, I just don't have anything left in me.

And I'll tell you what, I got up there and it was like, immediately the Lord just began to do what only he could do.

And there was like a fragrance that just released over that tent.

And I'm not kidding, one person came out of a wheelchair, I mean, another woman, she had bones removed in her inner ear when she was a child and had lost all of her hearing.

And miraculously, it was a creative miracle she received hearing in her ear.

And they're bringing these people to me.

I did nothing, doctor.

I did nothing.

And it was one of those moments where the Lord said, you think you're so advanced.

You've traveled the entire country but without saying the prayers.

You always say them, you know, with your, your formulaic prayers, without your, you know, because I kind of had a sequence like you said, and part of it.

And I don't know if my good friend Vlad Softchuk is watching, but Vlad had been to the event right before me.

And I said, hey, Vlad, what did you do?

And he said, oh, I kind of did your move.

You know, I started with repentance, then people surrender drugs and this.

So part of that was like, oh, Lord, what am I going to do?

You know, that was my plan.

And Vlad took my plan, which was really the gospel.

So I shouldn't have been mad.

But I again, I say that to say when those miraculous healings started to take place, I mean, one guy took his hearing aids out, threw him on the ground on stage, was like, I have full hearing.

It was one after another.

And it was in the midst of my own personal frustration, my own tiredness, and in the midst of a lack of any sort of formula.

I mean, it was just the Lord doing it.

And I think for me, that was a humbling moment where it was almost like God was showing me how little he needed me.

And so.

Oh, yeah, you know, And I just wanted to pause and say that because, Dr.

Michael Brown, we're living in an era where people are putting their identity in being a revivalist and not being a son or a daughter.

And it's like, you know what I mean?

Or being a disciple.

What happened to me towards the end of the revival is God really was revealing flesh in my own life.

And one of the lessons for me was that I had.

I had always put all my trust in God.

And if you don't help, if you don't anoint, if you don't give me words, I can't even open my mouth and speak.

And yet there was a subtle self confidence joined with a God confidence.

And God had to burn that out of me.

And really, as we got as the revival waned, some God really began to reveal flesh that was in my life and brought me to a new place of repentance.

And part of that was in the busyness and intensity of being in powerful meetings where the Spirit's moving and you're on your face in worship, weeping and God's touching people through you that you can neglect the secret place.

You can get so caught up in the busyness of life and ministry that you miss the beauty of personal devotion.

I remember one night early in the revival where I had to confront a brother about something and rather than respond to me respectfully in any way, he kind of barked back.

It was just a shocker the way he responded.

And right after that, it was after the altar call, after everyone got personal ministry.

Now we went to lay hands on people who wanted prayer.

And I hadn't lost my temper, but I was so shocked.

It would be like a kid cursing out their parents.

Like what?

I was so shocked.

I was agitated in my spirit.

And they said, Dr.

Brown, Dr.

Brown, time to pray for people.

And I'm thinking, not tonight.

I got nothing in me.

And I said, okay, the whole team's there ready for me to go praying for people.

I'll pray for a few Nothing will happen.

I'll say, hey, for some reason, it's not happening tonight.

I'll go home.

The first person I touched, it's like God crippled the intensity.

And then the next and then.

And I was in a state of shock.

And God said to me, it's not you.

It's not your power.

Power coming through your.

A man of God, powerful, you know, or you know, you got healing in your head.

No, it's nothing.

God used me once to pray for people.

In an obscure meeting in Canada.

They'd driven for a while from a reserve.

We call it a reservation.

They had a little church there.

It was a community of 1200 people.

They had a little church that went through a split and now they had two tiny churches.

They were deeply discouraged.

Out of the thousand or so people I prayed for that night after the repentance and getting right with God were these Native Canadian people.

Just out of the whole crowd, they went back.

Encouraged by the Lord, they started holding meetings.

I had three different eyewitnesses confirm this to me.

One year later, three different separate, independent people, they went back, had meetings.

God moved.

They said, let's go another night.

Let's go another night.

Let's go another night.

They finally got so exhausted, they brought in local pastors, one of whom I met.

A year plus later, they went on.

One year later, 1150 out of the 1200 people had professed faith in Jesus.

The most extraordinary story that I've ever been personally part of.

I got this testimony and I told my wife Nancy, you know what her first words were?

She said, and you can't take any credit for it.

Those were her first words.

She said, think of all the thousands of people you prayed for and that never happened.

Yeah.

And it's God working through human vessels.

And the moment we think, look at me.

Power of God anointed.

No, no.

The moment we put trust in numbers or following or anything like that, then we miss God's heart.

And I mentioned early in 2020, preaching on the refiner's fire.

So I'm in a church of about 6000 in California Preaching on God coming as a refiner's fire.

At the end of the service, we have this massive altar call, people repenting, get right with God.

And I knew it's one of these sacred moments where God wants to take it a step further.

And I said, some of you will not be free until you get up on stage and take the mic and publicly confess.

I don't want you to embarrass yourself, but I knew it was one of these sacred moments when God was doing that.

So the next thing, there's a whole line of people, old and young, weeping, shaking and testifying.

You know, I've been in drug ministry, but I'm on drugs myself.

And next thing, they're weeping.

Everyone's surrounding them, praying for them.

It was amazing.

I get back to my hotel room, I'm so charged by the spirit.

I thought, okay, I'm not going to chill or anything.

I just got to get on my knees and pray some more.

As I'm praying, suddenly I start getting these thoughts about ambition and pride.

I wanted to be somebody.

This is 2020.

I mean, I'm in my mid-60s, right?

I'm thinking, where is this?

This is filthy.

This is ugly.

But it was so real.

I journaled it all.

And then I realized I just preached under a refiner's fire, and God just sent the.

See, that's why people get uncomfortable with real revival, because the refiner's fire brings stuff to the surface we didn't even know was there.

That's it.

And now it's like, hey, I could either humble myself in get low.

Like many pastors would bring their congregation to Brownsville because their people needed a fresh touch.

And at the end of the service, literally, they are the first ones not walking to the altar, running to the altar, weeping to repent and get right.

What's their congregation thinking?

He's been in adultery, he's been stealing.

It could be God.

Just conviction of prayerlessness.

But the conviction is so intense, it's like Isaiah undone in the presence of God.

So if revival makes me bigger, it's not real revival.

If revival somehow lifts me up and my reputation, then it's become polluted along the way.

If revival makes me less dependent on God and less in love with him and less intimate with him.

And now it's this thing I can kind of navigate in merchandise.

Woe to us.

Because this is sacred, sacred stuff.

And when God moves, you know, and I've had that exact same thing.

You're exhausted, you're jet lagged, you've got nothing.

And God moves and he reminds you, it's me, the Excellency of the power.

That's what Paul writes is in Urza.

That's it.

Yeah.

So that God gets the glory.

And that's the great lesson.

And one of the lessons that I learned through my own weakness in Brownsville was God's strength is made perfect in our weakness.

Yes.

And we know it.

I knew it.

Intellectually, I could teach on it.

But I learned it on a deeper level, and the more quickly we can recognize that it's not an excuse for sin, God forbid, but it's the recognition that it's God's strength, it's God's power, it's God's grace.

That's why even if you hear about a leader, unless there's a tangent, some leader who fell, or maybe they were living a double life, and you think, but their books really bless me or their music really blessed me.

Well, it was God through them.

It was never them.

Right.

It was never God used them, but it was God's grace and God's gift.

Just like SAMSON In Judges 16, he sleeps with a philistine prostitute, and then he gets attacked and he carries the gates on his shoulders.

That's a very scary passage because the gift still operated.

There was still a divine grace in him, but then his sin led to his downfall.

So putting even revival aside, do not be seduced by the success of ministry.

Do not be seduced by the success of numbers.

The more God uses you, the less you think of yourself and the more you realize it's his grace, and the less you feel liberty to play with sin and mess with the world.

Oh, that is so good.

And I know we're in the final stretch here, guys.

We're saving the best for last.

So make sure you do not click off of this.

I, I.

And I want to see you in the comments section because this has been speaking to me.

You know, a lot of people ask me, pastor Mike, you know, how this person fell?

This person fell.

But what were the salvations real?

Were the healings real?

And I say, yes, it's more a reflection of.

In an affirmation of God's love for the people who are being ministered to than his approval of the minister, you know, and so God will use somebody even when there is sin in their life, not, not as an affirmation of that person's sin, but more an affirmation of his love for the people receiving ministry.

And that's what makes it dangerous, is that you could.

Ministry is one of the few jobs that you could stay in it for a long time.

Well past the time God already fired you.

You know, it's.

And because you just keep going through the motions, and I don't want to be that guy.

And this conversation's been deeply convicting and, and that was my prayer.

But because we can't play with revival, you know, we can't monetize revival, we can't market revival.

And.

And so even for me, you know, making the movie, and I don't want to ruin the ending, it's getting ready to go to digital distribution.

But my attempt with the movie was to take all of that selfish ambition and turn it on its head.

You know, where people get in there and then they're like, oh, you know, and.

And really, even when we did the.

We actually did the movie premiere, and I had all the cast of characters and some of the most significant voices with the biggest platforms all in one auditorium.

And when that last scene rolled, it was like the organic response was everybody hit their knees.

I mean, we had viral footage of it.

People just weeping, balling their eyes out, saying, God, let it start with me, you know?

And so my prayer has been that at this point in this.

This conversation, that people right now are like, I don't even know if I can keep watching.

I just need to begin to pray.

I do want to ask you a few questions, though, just as we get ready to close it down, because one of the things I love about your ministry is how you just demolish strongholds, and I think God has used you powerfully to just dismantle that.

You're a perfect convergence of, you know, the anointing of God, but also, you know, intellectual.

I think about Paul, who's like, sometimes I come with a cunning of words and other times a demonstration of God's power.

And I.

I've always loved that about your ministry.

So if you don't mind, if you've got time for just a few more quick questions, we could just quickly demolish some strongholds.

That is that all right?

Perfect.

Okay.

And guys, by the way, we want you to subscribe to his channel.

We're going to have all that linked in the description as well, so you can grab the book and also subscribe to his channel.

He's got so many teachings, so the things that we're talking about here.

Also, he's got videos in depth, which I'll link to.

But right now, something that I've been seeing is this Jewish mysticism and Kabbalah creeping into the church.

You know, where do you see this happening?

And could you speak on that?

It's a superficial fascination with things that they know absolutely nothing about.

The first thing is to really understand Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism.

There's even a Jewish tradition that Jewish men can't even begin to study it until they're past 40 years old because it can be so esoteric.

So even with all my knowledge and background and studies that I've done.

Mysticism is still a very esoteric thing.

So the Kabbalah and the stuff that people get, it's just this poor man's version of a trinket of something that somebody passed on.

And it has nothing to do with scripture, it has nothing to do with spiritual revelation.

It's generally based on the less you know, the more you talk about it, in short, because the more you knew about it, the less you would actually talk about it or tie it in with the gospel.

So you're going to find this numerology or, you know, try to derive meanings of, you know, from Hebrew letters and things and it's, it's all bogus.

People that know Hebrew well know it's bogus, but then when you go to expose it, you get called the Antichrist and false prophet because people get so caught up with the sensationalism.

I'm thinking, isn't God's living word enough?

Isn't relationship with the Holy Spirit enough?

Why do you need this cheap nonsense?

It's frivolous.

And then when you tie it in with prophetic words, it's deception added to deception.

Yeah, I mean, just briefly, what do you think people's fascination, I mean, calling a year, you know, something based on Hebrew numbers or the Alphabet, like, you know, what is the fascination?

Why are they drawn to that?

Is it just a lack of personal discipline to study the word of God that we have?

And it's just, is it the emotionalism that's connected to it?

Is it that it's sort of a counterfeit or, or how do I put this?

Like a, it runs parallel to like a psychic medium, New age kind of thing.

Like why do, why are Christians so, You know, it's like you post a video about, we're going to go through the book of James and you get five videos and then you post a video about some esoteric mystical aspect and you get a million views.

What is that, that phenomenon?

Yeah, you know, there's the principle in Proverbs 9, that's that that food eaten in secret is delicious, that something that's stolen has a certain allure to it.

Or, or Jesus rebukes it in revelation to Satan's so called deep secret.

One of the early heresies the church dealt with was Gnosticism, this special knowledge.

So anytime, just like a conspiracy thing, hey, I've got insider information that has a certain allure to it, or a deeper spiritual truth by which we can predict the future.

No, there is this completely idiotic, one of the most idiotic pathetic, nonsensical videos I've ever seen in my life.

And people started to ask me about it.

Dr.

Bryant, have you seen this?

Have you seen this?

Have you seen this?

So I go, of course.

It's millions of views and it's laying out why Jesus is coming before the end of 2023.

This is a video posted in 2018 with a book based on the first word in Genesis, bereshit in Hebrew.

Based on alleged numeric value of the letters, this was now laying out the whole plan of redemption.

Every so I watched the beginning.

Every single point made was bogus.

It would be like saying your name is Mike Jones and you're from Mars and your parents live in Paris.

Every part was factually bogus.

And then I said, the only good thing is it's got dates.

So I said, I guarantee you Jesus is not coming by the end of 2023.

Here's what I want you to do.

I want you to archive my article and I want you to archive this video and I want you to see which one ages better.

It's this.

It's this fascination.

It's this.

And, and I think if people had a vibrant personal relationship with God.

Yeah, we're grounded in the Word and we're bearing fruit.

Seeing people come to the Lord, lives touched, that would be so consuming and so life giving.

They wouldn't have time for this trivial nonsense.

Oh, that's so good.

Okay, I've got two more questions because this is this.

Obviously I could talk to you all day, but I've got to respect your time.

But I have two more questions.

Super quick question.

So obviously me kind of getting sucked into the deliverance world.

There's this huge fascination with the book of Enoch.

Why was the book of Enoch not canonized in the 66 books of the Bible?

Right.

So what people need to know outside of the Ethiopic canon, parts of the Ethiopian church that recognized Enoch.

Enoch was highly esteemed by early Jews and early followers of Jesus, but it was never considered part of the Jewish canon.

So what you have to understand is there was not a formal process where 50 people sat around and voted.

It was more organic that, okay, here are the words of Moses and now this is the book that God gave.

And now God has verified that book through the Exodus.

So these are sacred.

Now here are words of the prophets or words of the apostles that became recognized by the people.

So Enoch number one does not all go back to Enoch.

We know for sure that although there may be words like Jude quotes and go back to him that otherwise there's much in Enoch that's not going back to him.

It's called pseudepigraphical literature.

It would be like me writing a letter to the church From Mike Signorelli 100 years after you're gone.

You didn't really write it, but it's in your name.

And I try to write it, it's in your name.

So there are parts of Enoch that are clearly later than Enoch.

So it was falsely attributed to him.

Also, it's produced in between the Old and the New Testament.

So basically the canon of the Old Testament is closed.

It's not part of the New Testament canon.

So it was a respected book.

Just like shepherd of Hermos or Epistle of Barnabas.

These were respected books, but they never became part of scripture.

So as you go through in the early church, as they're listing different books, this was never part of.

Of, you know, one of the standard lists that they agreed on.

So it's not that there was this conspiracy to keep Enoch.

And there are lots of things in it that are very interesting and that shed light on certain things that were happening in the 1st century in Jewish thought.

But it was never part of the Bible.

It did not get excluded because someone took it out.

It was never part.

So in a certain level, it came at the wrong time.

In between the Old and New Testaments, it contained material that was pseudepigraphical, in other words, not really going back to Enoch.

And it may have some other ideas that are not exactly orthodox.

So it never made it in.

You know, it's like the guy that didn't make it into the major leagues, it wasn't because of his last name.

It wasn't because of his funny beard.

It's that he didn't quite play well enough to make it.

So it's a very interesting book, a compilation of several books, actually.

Yeah, it's interesting to read, but that's it.

Yeah, it's not scripture.

It's a great answer.

Okay, this last question, I'm going to probably lose some subscribers over, so I'm going to take this risk with you right now.

I just want to say I'm in it with you, but I'm probably going to lose some subscribers and I'm going to have to tell my wife that the next couple days after this are going to be hard couple days for me.

So why is.

If you're willing.

If you're willing, you can bow out of this.

We'll.

We'll delete it.

But why Is the idea of the flat Earth not biblical?

Okay, you talk about something nonsense.

So I'm not a scientist, I don't claim to be a scientist, but did the sun rise where you live today?

It did, yes.

Okay.

That's observational language.

We use observational language to this day.

The sun rising, the sun setting.

But we know.

Unless you actually believe that the sun goes around the Earth as a flat Earther, which I don't think flat Earthers actually believe that the sun goes around the Earth.

So unless you believe that, you recognize the Bible uses observational language, talking about to the ends of the Earth or to the corners, it uses other observational language or just kind of conceptions of the time that it's built on foundations, or do we actually believe that there are foundations that have.

If there's a flat earth and you went.

There's like a table with legs going out of.

No, but if you want to read it literally, that's what you have to read.

On the flip side, you can read in Job where he hangs the earth on nothing.

You read in Isaiah where God sits on the hoog of the Earth, which is the circle or the sphere of the Earth.

And people use that to say the Bible knew that the Earth was a globe.

It's not talking about.

The Bible is not there to make scientific observations about the shape of the Earth.

And if you want to read through all the different foundations, you'll see many, many different descriptions.

Some of it's poetic language, and others is just observational language.

And for people to, you know, I talked to a guy, a solid Christian, who was an astronaut who took more pictures of the Earth than any human being in history.

You know, so when you talk to him about the flat Earth, having circled the Earth endlessly, endlessly, and looked at it, documented and taken pictures, you think, what are people thinking?

What concerns me, though, is not people misreading the Bible and misunderstanding the Bible and forgetting that it uses observational language.

So I see the sun set, the sun rise.

Remember this.

If the Bible was attempting to give accurate scientific information about every statement that it makes, I don't mean it speaks falsely, but it can just use different language.

Then all the years up until us discovering that the Earth went around the sun rather than someone around the Earth, if the Bible said two, three thousand years ago that the Earth goes around the sun, every person in the world would have thought the Bible was wrong because scientific knowledge had not caught up.

Then when it catches up, oh, now the Bible is right.

And what if 500 years later we learn something new and it keeps developing.

So the purpose of scripture is to teach us about God and to tell us how to live before him and not to make these random scientific observations.

So again, if I presented every single picture and we wanted to take it literally, you'd end up with something maybe a kind of a globe or maybe more flat, sitting on actual physical pillars.

It's not what it means.

And the concern to me is not that people believe something weird or stupid.

In other words, it's not going to hurt them following Jesus, but it makes us look idiotic.

It further brings reproach to the gospel.

Yeah.

So if you hold to a flat earth, just let it be between you and God.

Don't announce it to the world.

We have enough obstacles to overcome.

Let not that be added to it.

Well, listen, listen, if you lose a lot of followers over that, just like I lost a ton of followers when I went after QAnon.

Yeah, those people are not worthy of following you, man.

Come on.

That's it.

You guys heard it first here at the Michael and Mike show.

You guys, you got.

Well, you know, one of the travesties, one of the first travesties I experienced here in New York City when I first moved here was being evangelized to on the streets.

And they didn't know I was a pastor and a preacher.

So I said, yeah, you lead me to Jesus, let me see what you got, you know, and they were kind of taking me on that journey and exchanged numbers with me.

So they don't, they don't realize they're talking to a full blown lead pastor of a church the whole time.

And I wasn't trying to lie, lied to them, but I wanted to see, like, what, what is this all about?

Well, long story short, they ended up being a cult that believes that every time the phrase the bride of Christ is being used that there was a literal bride.

Like, so they took that phrase as if it was.

There was one woman who married Jesus Christ and she is the, the bride of Christ.

And me trying to convince that entire cult in Queensland that that is figurative language, that's symbolic, obviously of the collective, of all of us who've accepted Christ.

I mean, was like, beat my head against the wall.

I was unsuccessful.

I did.

I just, I want to tell my listeners, I, I did not successfully dismantle that cult.

But it just goes to show you, using the limitations of language and, you know, faulty argumentation, they're, they're able to amass a whole audience and build a whole cult.

A New York City, and there's churches that rightly divide the word, that can't even keep their doors open out here.

So, you know, the deception runs deep.

Thank you so much for talking about, you know, the.

The usage of the, you know, we would be on physical pillars that.

Listen, guys, rewind that.

Watch it a couple more times before you send us hate mail.

And let me just say this.

It's in the book.

Seize the moment as well, because revival comes with such intensity.

You can get caught up with the manifestations or just deliverance, Right?

Yeah.

And everything becomes about demons or, you know, the latest viral video kind of thing, whatever it is, or some esoteric angelic revelation.

Major on the majors.

That's it.

The whole reason I earned a PhD in Semitic languages was to better study scripture and understand.

I love to dig deep.

I love to dig, and I love to explore and study and learn and want to be like that all my life.

But the more I go on, the more I'm drawn to the center, the more I major, the more I want to discover who Jesus is and the wonders of the nature of God and the depth of the wisdom of the word of God.

And then practically, how do we live this out?

That's it.

And that.

That forever and ever and ever is going to be enthralling, is going to be overwhelming.

You know, like the elders, you know, you picture it at the throne of God, and they're saying, holy, holy, holy, right?

And they're casting down their crowns, but they're continually doing this.

So the mental picture I get is they, you know, they cast the crowns down, they worship, and then they kind of get resettled.

They put the crown back on their head, and they look up like, oh, they get a fresh revelation of God and it's new every month.

Oh, and they're overwhelmed.

The holy.

And they throw the crowns down and they kind of get settled, and that's what happens in revival.

Oh, God, it's real overwhelming.

So major on the majors.

That's it.

There's enough there, enough meat to dig into.

And I'm constantly just reading through the Word after all these decades, learning something new about the basics, and that's it.

Insight.

Wow.

I never knew that.

I never saw that.

It's so rich.

Don't get lost in the weeds.

No, it's so good.

I was just telling our congregation, you know, the further you go in Christ, the more sick, simple you become.

I thought I was going to become more complicated, but I want to pray more, I want to read the Word more.

I want to serve more.

It's like maturity in the faith.

It doesn't make you more complicated.

It makes you more simple.

So here's what I want you guys to do.

We have seize the moment.

I've got this in my hands.

You need to get this book in your hands.

I want you guys to all get that book.

I want you to subscribe to his channel.

But also, he didn't ask me to do this, but we believe, believe in sewing.

So even above and beyond getting the book, I want you to sew into his ministry.

We got the link that's pinned as well.

Thank you so much.

It's been over an hour, which.

This has honestly been one of the fa.

My favorite conversations I've ever had on my channel.

So, guys, make sure that you subscribe here if you're new and share this with people.

Share this.

You know, one of the ways that you can destroy deceptions in people's lives is to say, hey, there are those who have been faithful that.

That there's fruit in their life, and here's what they have to say about it.

And we need that more than ever before.

Guys, we're.

I want you to all go to the line of fire.org because Dr.

Michael Brown, you have a newsletter, is that right?

Tell them about the newsletter.

Yeah, so just so folks know, I normally write about four or five articles a week.

And then we've got our daily radio show and other videos.

So we have thousands of hours of free resources there.

Wow.

Just search for things you're interested in.

But we just launched in January, the Frontline newsletter.

And every every month, first there's a message that'll stir you and inspire you.

And then amazing testimonies.

We've added in a Hebrew word study each month to make it interesting.

Book excerpts, other things.

So the whole goal is to say, okay, look, all of us, we're in the line of fire today.

That's the reality.

We're all on the front lines wherever we live.

I want to come alongside you, hold your hands up, because together we can make a difference.

This.

We're in the early stages of something that we've been praying for and longing for for many, many years.

Come on, let's grab hold of it together.

We want to equip you on the front line.

So the line of fire.org right on the homepage.

Sign up for the Frontline newsletter and then we'll put you in our welcome tour.

So share my testimony from LSD to PhD.

Come on.

I was shooting heroin at 15 on Long island, the whole transformation and then the three R's of our ministry revival in the church, leading to gospel based moral and cultural revolution, leading to the redemption of Israel.

That's what causes our heart to burn and that's what we want to see.

Oh, I love your heart and we're so grateful for this conversation.