Can Christians have a demon? This might shock you! | Feat. Jonathan Pokluda

Let's just talk about the demonic.

Okay, let's do this though, because there's people watching right now that believe in the devil.

They believe in demons, but they, they don't know, like, where's the line?

How do I know what it is?

How do, how do I know what it's not?

But before we get into that question, because I was just on Carl Lentz's podcast and he was like, mike, how do you know if you're dealing with a demon?

So I'd love to hear your answer, jp, and I'm sure you've got some wisdom on that, but can, do you mind at least sharing the story of how the spiritual realm and, and this demonic stuff really was unveiled to you?

Because I know you had a situation with, with a friend.

When I heard this story, it was jaw dropping.

Do you mind sharing that with everybody?

Yeah, so I, I'll start here and just say CS Lewis says there's two mistakes we make about the devils.

He says one is giving them too much power and authority, being afraid of them, and the other is not believing that they exist.

And so that kind of throws back to Reservoir Dogs.

One of my favorite movie quotes is trick the devil's over pulled is convincing the world that he doesn't exist.

And I think there's another, like a third option in 2025 that is believing that the devil exists, believing that there's demons, believing that there's fallen angels.

And that belief having zero implication for our life and what we do.

And so what this, this book, your story, has a villain.

It started out as a three year research project because I was seeing the guys like you.

And by guys like you, I mean, I mean brilliant guys who love God's word.

They hold the scripture in high authority.

And you're doing deliverance work.

You're coming, you're encountering the manifestation of demons.

You're, you're seeing people freed from sin.

You know, it's real, it looks real to me.

I'm like, you know, I don't, I don't know.

And I was kind of taught, hey, don't argue with someone's experience, but you can argue with what they make about the experience.

And I'm like, I'm seeing.

And I'm like, and now TikTok and, and Instagram and everybody having a video camera on their phone, it gives you a front row seat.

You know, you, you're seeing at least videos of it.

You're like, all right, now you got to make about, with what you're seeing.

And so, for me, I.

I had been in.

I've been to Africa multiple times, multiple countries in Africa.

Been to Haiti six times, you know, shared the gospel with voodoo priests.

I've been to the Amazon jungle three times.

And you would hear these stories of demonic manifestations, but I had never seen it firsthand.

Now, what you may not realize, Mike, is I was.

I was actually writing this book at the time.

So I was doing this.

I had.

I had agreed to write this book.

I had done the research.

I had preached on spiritual warfare, and I did believe.

I believe that, you know, the devil does work, but I still had never seen it in that way.

And then I was.

You know, of all those places that I had been overseas, I had.

I had never seen a.

You know, encountered the demonic that I was aware of.

And I'm in a country club in Utah, like.

Like, one of the nicest country clubs in our country, in the.

In the nation.

I'm there for a ministry event, a fundraising event.

I was invited.

And I'm in the lobby, and this guy just comes off the course.

He's got his title, his visor on, he's got his polo tucked into his khakis and his golf cleats on.

And I just go.

We're having a conversation.

And I go to share the gospel with him.

And.

And I'm like, hey, do you.

You know, do you have a faith?

You have a relationship with Jesus?

And he says, I do.

But I struggle to pray.

And I'm like, why do you struggle to pray?

He goes, when I do, I just have this, like, physiological.

Like this physical response to prayer.

Like, my throat closes up, and just something happens to me, and I go, wow, that sounds demonic.

And he goes.

He's, like, belligerent.

He's like, it's not demonic.

You sound like my mom.

You know, what's wrong with you?

And.

And I go, well, have you ever had anybody pray over you?

Because lots of people have prayed over me.

And he's still just really put off by the questions.

And we talked some more.

You know, I'm just loving on the dude.

And.

And we're talking about Jesus, and.

And he goes, well, why don't you pray for me?

And I was like, man, I'd be.

I'd be honored to.

And right then my friend walks up.

Praise God.

You know, I'm not alone.

My friend walks up, and we're in this country club, and I just put my hand on his back, and I.

I start praying.

And as I pray, I say, and, Lord, if there's anything demonic here at work, would you just bind it in Jesus name?

And when I do that, he starts convulsing and make like, just like, just, you know, convulsing, kind of making this movement.

And he begins to cough and.

And then he starts, you know, making this terrible noise in this country club.

And his arms go up and he kind of starts contorting and.

And I'm just like, whoa.

People are like, were you scared?

I was.

I'm embarrassed to tell you that I was.

I was like, oh, my goodness, what is happening?

And I'm saying stuff.

I'm like, lord, and just bind it in Jesus name.

But I'm in my head.

My internal narrative is like, please don't let it jump on me.

Please don't let it jump on me.

Please don't let it jump on me.

And he kind of gets louder and bigger and.

And then, you know, begins to calm down, quieter, more still.

And so I say, in Jesus name, amen.

And he's just kind of like standing there, like, frozen at that moment.

And he just moves his head and he goes, well, I didn't expect that to happen.

I was like, that makes two of us.

Yeah, it was wild.

And so that was a.

That was a crazy experience.

But I was already writing the book, you know.

Well, and I think there was a grace on you because you were willing to embrace the entire Bible and say, okay, we.

We know this is clearly there.

Of course we're not going to be demon possessed or demon obsessed, and we're not going to be like, you know, because I think sometimes there.

There can become this unusual obsession with the demonic and like you had already mentioned, attributing too much to it.

Right.

And an unwillingness to address the mental, the strongholds we have to deal with our flesh, our.

You know, and I think that of course, the deliverance movement in, you know, in the fringes, de emphasized, like, discipleship and DE emphasized, you know, just walking in holiness and sanctification and, you know, renewing your mind and the daily disciplines of reading scripture.

But then on the flip side of that, it's like, well, if in your Christian experience nothing is ever demonic, then you will be conquered by the enemy that you refuse to acknowledge.

And.

Yeah, and that's my.

Yeah, yeah, that's my journey.

I was, you know, I'm a Bible guy and I, I taught the Bible for over a decade.

And I, I mean, I'm expositional, exegetical, like, let's take a passage, chop it up, look at the Greek, look at the Hebrew.

And, and, but I'm reading the same Bible you have, and I'm like, man, Jesus encountered a lot of demons.

And so what do I do with this?

Am I, am I left to believe that this ended in the first century and this isn't happening now?

And, and, and I, I, I believe that one third of the angelic realm fell to earth, and those angels are now fallen angels, demons, and where did they go and what are they doing?

And, and if it happened, then, then is it here?

And is it, is, are we misdiagnosing schizophrenia?

Is it, is all of that demonic?

And, you know, what do we do with that?

And that, that really was the beginning of this journey.

I mean, that question.

I remember a Christian said, Mike that, you know, he said, I was, I was getting ready to go to church, and I, I, I got in my car and it wouldn't start, you know, and, and it was like, hashtag, spiritual warfare.

And I was like, well, goodness, like, what can, like, and it was his battery, his battery was dead.

I was like, well, can they drain a battery?

Like, what can they do?

Did they have to pop your hood?

Do they leave your door open, leave the light on?

What did they do?

And I just, those were like, sincere questions, like, I don't know.

And so I just started that, that trying to figure out.

And it turns out, you know, the Bible says more about spiritual warfare than it does about marriage.

Yeah.

If I'm an honest preacher, then really my sermon series, you know, should be 10 to 1, spiritual warfare to marriage.

Because it's, that's, that's how the, the scripture operates.

And, you know, to your original question, Second Corinthians, chapter four, verse four says, you know, if you ask a bunch of Christians who's the God of this world, you know, we'll say Jesus, Yahweh, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Jehovah.

But Second Corinthians 4, verse 4 says that Satan is the lowercase G God of this world.

And the good news is, first John 4, verse 4, greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world.

And so we don't have to be afraid, but we do need to be aware.

Yeah, that's why I love what you're doing, is you're, you are raising awareness of this.

And, you know, I think, I think people who come from the camp that I come from could criticize that.

And I, I love that you're, you're bringing a healthy balance to that.

Just to say, hey, the enemy's real.

We Don't.

We don't need to make too much of it.

We don't need to operate from a position of defeat.

But we do need to be aware.

You know, we do need to be aware that a lot of the bondage that we're seeing is Satanic.

It is demonic, and we got to have solutions for that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, and I love the fact that you mentioned Jesus encountered a lot of demons.

I've been rereading the book of Matthew, and it's almost like you forget how frequently he was encountering demons until you read the book of Matthew specifically.

And.

But it was just a normal thing.

And I think it's.

When you're ministering to people, there's like an arsenal you have.

And the thing I was talking about the other day is, like, what do you do with the disabling spirit in the book of Luke, you know, where it's like a spirit of infirmity?

One translation says, you know, James chapter five is like, if there's any sick among you, bring them to the elders, have them anoint with oil and lay hands.

But then how do you know if you're dealing with something biological or something supernatural?

And even for me as a pastor, I have to audit myself and say, man, when I'm praying for sick people, am I ever attributing it to a demonic origin, or is it only biological in my mind?

Because a good minister has a repertoire.

It's like, hey, you need to apply discipline.

We need to get you on a healthy diet.

We need to get you working out regularly.

And this is primarily a discipline issue.

Then the next person like, no, regardless of discipline, this sickness is biological, and we need to pray for supernatural healing.

But then the other category, and I think it's Luke chapter 13, is, you know, the woman who's hunched over for 18 years, and it was like, Jesus did not say, you know, be made whole.

He literally cast out a disabling spirit.

And so you do have an instance where that was demonic in origin.

And I just think it's a wisdom thing, you know, And.

And then sometimes it's all three.

It's like, hey, the demonic influence caused a physical condition, but then now you have to rehab your body and go on a journey of health after this prayer for freedom.

And I think what happened for me and is that just my willingness to even acknowledge the full ministry of Jesus caused me to get thrust into a deliverance camp.

And, jp I know we're kind of getting to know each other, but I literally spent two years with Tim Keller in New York City.

So it's like, that's Gospel Coalition, you know, that's reformed camp, you know.

And so it's weird because when I, when people started, you know, calling me a deliverance guy, I laughed because I was like, well, I used to call myself a gospel guy.

And wherever the gospel is being preached, I do believe you will see people getting healed, people getting free from demons, people's lives being restored.

And there's a lot of, like, nuance in that.

And so I'm grateful for your book and conversations like this because I feel like, you know, it's bringing a.

A wisdom.

I don't even want to use the word balance, because sometimes, as you mentioned with your friend in the country club, like, there's nothing balanced about the fact that he's coughing and contorting and a golf course, you know, and so sometimes people look at the footage and there's like, this can't possibly be real.

And it's like, well, if it's happening every single time you pray for somebody, somebody's making it up, you know, like.

But it, but if you're faithfully praying for people over the totality of your ministry and never encountering the demonic, I have to question some.

You know, even there's a great John Piper story that he tells himself of ministering to somebody.

And then it's very similar to your story where it was sort of unexpected.

And so it's like, listen, if John Piper has a deliverance story and you don't, I don't care what camp you come from, like, you're doing something wrong.

So, but, but let me ask you this, because you minister to a lot of people.

You talked about seeing some of these things happen overseas.

Then you had experience on US Soil.

What do you think is the.

What are you discerning is the spiritual climate in America right now?

Like, why is this book.

Your story has a villain so important, particularly for American Christians.

You said, we're getting to know each other.

I know we're doing ministry in two different contexts.

And so I, you know, two years ago, my now friend Tanya Pruitt asked me to speak at Deal at Auburn University.

I thought I was going to see 600 college students.

And initially I said no, because it was just a short turnaround.

And then another person reached out and said, hey, would you please do this?

That I knew.

And I said, sure.

And so I go there and.

And there were 6,000 college students.

And that night a bunch responded to the gospel, and 250 were baptized and we.

It was amazing.

It was one of the highlights of my ministry, and I thought it was done, but Tanya had really prayed this movement into existence.

Little did I know.

I didn't know at the time.

Wow.

But then we went to fsu, then Alabama, then Georgia, then Tennessee, you know, and then.

And then the University of Florida and South Carolina.

And so now we've been to 13, 14 campuses.

We're going to Purdue, we're going to West Virginia.

April 22nd will be at Baylor.

And we're seeing thousands respond to the gospel and hundreds get baptized every single time.

So now I've prayed with over 20,000 college students.

And so.

Wow.

I'm using the, the word revival.

I think we're in it.

I think it's happening in, in, in prisons and on university campuses.

I think it's happening on, in, in and throughout street conversations.

Some.

Much of, you know what, what you're doing and just where God is anointing men, pastors like yourself to have this international global reach to declare the truth of Christ.

I, I'll say.

I mean, you know, it's so weird because you're.

For your, your audience.

This may not be strange things to say for, for me and my background and, and what I know, my theological framework, my theological foundation is such a strange thing to say.

Pastor Mike, I think we are so close to, to the return of Christ.

I think he's coming back and, and there's something being disrupted in the spiritual realm right now.

Satan's not hiding anymore.

You know, you go back to that, that quote from Reservoir Dogs.

He.

He's no longer trying to convince the world he doesn't exist right now, at least in our country.

It just seems like he's.

He's showing his cards, he's showing up, he's.

He's doing work and, And I think he's.

I think he's really trying to, to wreak havoc, to, to terrorize, to scare people.

And, you know, when, when you go through Ephesians 6, the, the spiritual armor and you have the feet fitted ready with, with the readiness of the gospel.

I think we have to, as followers of Jesus Christ, be armed with the gospel and sharing it on the regular.

I think Paul there is, Is probably chained to a Roman soldier, and he's just, he's using the armor to describe a normal Christian.

Yeah, like a normal Christian will be positioned in truth and aligned with righteousness, and a normal Christian is sharing the gospel.

And they, they have the shield of faith, faith, and they're internalizing salvation and they're operating with the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, and they're praying consistently that God would move and act, that that's just normal for a follower of Jesus.

And.

And my context is different than yours.

In the south, it's like, everybody thinks they're a Christian.

You probably live in a.

I'm.

I assume New York is more polarized, where it's just like, no, I'm not a Christian.

In the south, you know, everybody's a Christian.

And so I'm.

I'm evangelizing to people who have gone to church their entire life, really trying to convince them that they're not a Jesus follower so that they can become one.

But, yeah, I think we're seeing revival, man.

Wow.

Well, let me just say this publicly, because there's been a couple of times while you're talking where I.

I feel like I want to weep.

And I was like, lord, what is it?

Because you're carrying such a strong external presence of the Holy Spirit on you, and I really want to affirm it's your humility, because you know that it's treacherous territory within your circles.

And, you know, you're kind of like, you're trying to honor and acknowledge scriptures and serve people well.

And I just respect that so deeply because I spent years, you know, trying to be the Pentecostal that went into the Reformed camps or.

And I have a lot of dear friends who are very ardent cessationists.

And you know what I love about them?

They know the scriptures.

They memorize the scriptures, spiritual formation from birth to grave, and we can learn a lot.

I attribute a lot of the success of my church.

You know, how do you get to seven campuses, six physical in eight years?

It's like, because I stole from my Lutheran friends and my Presbyterian friends and my Methodist friends and my Baptist friends, because there's so much value in the things that they were doing.

And so I think for me to see you say, like, okay, there's a lot of people who've tried to cancel the word revival, but how else do we even explain what's going on?

And at what point can we.

At what point who gets to determine when we can use this Word?

And what I love about you is like, bro, when we're seeing hundreds of college kids, you know, baptized thousands, except Christ, can I now do I have permission to use the word revival?

And of course, Pentecostals have abused that word.

But I think it's like this weird convergence is happening where it's like, you know, I love you for your relationship teachings, your marriage teachings.

And then when you stepped into the spiritual.

The.

The spiritual warfare realm, I was like, oh, it's.

It's time to fight back to back on this.

Because there's something about.

There's a convergence, and you're seeing people, regardless of their denominational affiliation, start to say, wait a second, let's become friends in a foxhole.

Because there's nothing that's more unifying than a shared enemy.

And when we start recognizing, like, we're not each other's enemy, but Satan and these demonic forces are like, that's, to me, one of the most powerful next steps we could take.

So I just want to say this publicly because maybe our audiences are different.

I embrace and affirm what you're doing.

There's tremendous value in it.

And just you're walking, I think, in a greater level of authority.

And it's a.

Both.

And because, of course, you're still preaching all those other topics, but it's stepping into this.

It's.

It's so needed, and it's just like an extra toolkit.

So.

One last thing I want to say, and I want to ask you a question about this.

I was in prayer the other day, and you reminded me, when you're talking to me about Ephesians 7:6.

I had this vision in prayer of this exceedingly great army, this.

Which I believe is on the planet right now.

And they were fully armored up.

They had their sword, they.

They had their shield, but they were all shoeless.

And it was like this massive shoeless army just barefoot.

And I feel like what the Lord is calling everyone to right now is the shoes that speed the gospel, because there's something about putting, like, when the army stops being shoeless.

And it's like.

And because what happens is that does away with a lot of the frivolous theological arguments, because it's like, when you start preaching the gospel enough, you know, my friends who are Methodists are like, oh, yeah, like, well, let me put like this.

My friends who are Methodists who preach the gospel have stories of the demonic.

It's the.

It's my institutionalized friends who never leave the building that don't have those stories.

So.

So to me, the lowest common denominator is evangelism.

And that's why when you.

When I asked you tell me what you have to say about the state of America, you answered with evangelism.

I'm showing up and I'm evangelizing.

And therefore, I needed to write this book.

So if you could speak to.

Because this is a thing I would love for you to minister to my audience is you are an evangelist.

You're also a pastor, but there's something about you where, like, you're a soul winner, and you're like, man, we need to understand spiritual warfare because of soul winning.

And, and the thing that annoys me so much about people from my camp is there they know everything about spiritual warfare and nothing about evangelism.

So how would you speak to them?

Yeah, gosh, there's so much there.

I got it back.

I got it back way up.

Because when you were talking, I mean, I don't know what's happening right now, but I, I got emotional, too.

And I just, I think that, you know, Pastor Mike and I met each other because we, we disagreed on something, and I.

You know, what's so funny about disagreements is I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

Say it was like.

Like a year and a half ago or something.

And then we started talking.

And, and just as.

As brothers, do, you know, you.

We, we pursued peace.

I think that's why Jesus prayed for us that we would have peace, because one of the enemy's tactics is disunity, and he's trying to divide.

And the whole book really starts with a screwtape letter about 2020, where it just is, it just seemed to me that they had unleashed one.

They all came unified in their strategy of just divide.

Divide them racially, socially, politically, by gender, by ideologies.

Just divide, divide, divide, divide.

And so I think what you're seeing now is people locking arms.

And I loved what you said around a.

A common enemy, because that's, that's exactly right.

And will you please forgive me for whatever bonehead thing I said, you know, year and a half ago?

I don't even know what it was.

And I wish I could ask with a greater sincerity, but I, I.

Will you please forgive me, Pastor, for whatever that was?

Oh, man, now you get me choked up.

Okay, you want to hear something crazy, jp?

I don't remember what it was either.

And I, I, I promise you I don't.

I actually, I vaguely remember that.

And I think I hit you up or something.

And, And I was like.

At first, I was like, I'm gonna go back through DMs and see if I can find it.

And then it was like, honestly, who cares?

I.

And I was probably wrong, too, so I want to apologize to you.

And, And I.

And I think when you talk about unity.

Are you familiar with Jack Haford?

Do you remember him?

Yes.

You know, one of the things I respected about him so much, he was a mentor, is that he was like, interdenominational, you know, And I.

And it's like, I really been seeing a need for that in the earth.

And there's just something very special happening right now.

And I want to be a bridge builder, not a bridge burner.

And I.

And I.

It's like.

It's like when you think about Acts 2, they were in one mind, they were in one accord.

You know, there's something about that.

Or the Hellenist Greeks versus the apostolic leaders.

Hey, do we feed the poor?

Do we preach the gospel?

And it's like, hey, guys, we do both.

And I think we're entering a both and not an either or.

And it's like, hey, if.

But.

But.

And it's almost.

It takes men like us with a couple of gray hairs, you know, lived a bit of.

A little bit of life to say, hey, young people, what if you're all right?

And what.

What if.

What if.

What if what you feel a passion for is what you're supposed to go do?

And I go do my thing.

And I think what's so beautiful about our story is, is I didn't go to New York City with the intention of becoming a deliverance church.

I.

And.

And I think that's evidenced by the fact that my first mentor was Tim Keller, who's way outside of my circles, because I was like, I want to make sure that I'm faithfully being a witness to the gospel.

But then what happened was, this is the crossroads of the world, and people are doing Santeria and Obia and all forms of witchcraft.

And.

And they're really doing it as a form of counterfeit comfort.

That's the phrase I use, because it's like, most witchcraft is not with the intention of, I want to be a witch, I want to become a warlock, I want to be demonized.

It's.

I'm in deep pain.

And I think that this will solve or at least medicate or help this pain.

And so I basically started realizing that here in New York City that they don't realize the Holy Spirit's the comforter.

And it's.

And so my definition of revival is actually.

It's an exchange.

Give up something that you think is good for something that's actually good, which is Jesus and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

And so when all this video started coming out of my church campuses, stages filled with all these new age and occult items, I wasn't trying to create a circus.

I wasn't trying to do it for publicity.

It was literally like, no, the New Yorkers actually thought all this stuff was going to help them through their grieving seasons, their mourning seasons, their breakups.

And I gave them Jesus and they traded.

They basically said, oh, you're right, this is better.

And I see that with the Apostle Paul, where it's like, you have an iron workers guild making all these trinket gods, and he starts a whole riot because he.

The statistical sales of those, those items go down.

And it wasn't that Paul said, hey, stop selling idols or stop buying idols.

Paul was like, hey, yeah, I got something better and it's free.

It's because Jesus paid it all.

And so I think what happened was I was kind of starting these little mini riots online and whatever.

And I was like, I promise that's not my intention.

You know, so you're in this journey now.

Let you know if we could have a few more minutes because this has been so rich.

Your question too.

I still have an answer for you.

Yeah, yeah, I want to.

That's it.

I want to kick back to you.

Yeah.

So let me, let me say.

So that was.

The one thing is just thank you for the grace there.

Then we used the words cessationist earlier, just in case your audience is not aware that that root word of that is ceased.

And so there's, there's denominations and, and people who believe that the, the sign gifts have ceased.

This comes from First Corinthians 13, you know, where, where there are.

They will cease.

And I don't think that's what that scripture is saying, even though I've in, you know, decades ago have been tempted to believe that at times, but I just always knew there's got to be more.

There's got to be more of God.

There's got to be more of God.

And Jesus says, you know, greater works than these.

And I'm getting to the answer of your question, says greater works than these, you'll be able to do these things in greater works than these.

And so what, what every follower of Jesus listening has the power to do is we can share the greatest story that's ever been told.

It's this story of God getting his children back.

It's this story.

It's a rescue plan.

It's this story of the creator of the heavens, the earth, losing his children to sin, to pornography, to vaping, to thc, to cocaine, to lust, to greed, to envy, just giving themselves over to that.

And God says, how Should I punish them for what they've done?

You know what?

I'm gonna go into the world, I'm gonna rescue them, and I'm gonna be.

I'm gonna be brutally murdered and tortured in their place.

That if they trust in me, Jesus Christ, then they will not perish, but they will have everlasting life.

They will.

They will.

They will adopt.

They will be adopted in.

They will inherit a kingdom that they could never deserve.

That's grace.

Never deserve.

And so this is the story that we're living, where the devil loses.

He's.

He's read the back of the book.

He knows that he's thrown into the lake of fire.

So he's running this scorched earth strategy.

Yeah, where he's just terrorized people.

When we.

When we, you know, bait.

When we, you know, sleep with strangers, when we, you know, buy things that we don't need rather than help the poor, when we.

When we try to build our own kingdoms, demons receive that as worship.

They.

They.

They don't need you to do a seance with candles and a pentagram on the floor, drinking blood.

They'll take you just hurting yourself under the banner of sin, as worship.

And so when you sin, you let them in.

You know, you give the devil a foothold, and footholds turn to strongholds.

And so when you consistently sin, you're.

You're.

You're handing yourself over to the enemy to have his way with you.

So when we come in with the greatest message ever told, Romans 8:1, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2nd Corinthians 5:19.

God is no longer counting your sins against you.

I can say to the prostitute that you can stand pure and holy before God one day, not because of what you've done, but because of what he did for you on his.

On your behalf through his son, Jesus Christ.

And so the way that I'm.

I'm sharing the gospel is.

And I just would ask your audience this.

I just say between 1 and 10, 10 being certain, 1 being not so sure.

If you died today, how certain are you that you would go to heaven on that scale, as you think about it.

And so the reason I do that is because 22 years ago, someone asked me that, and I said, I'm a seven.

And the second question is, is if you stood before God.

And before I say this question, I would just encourage your audience to think of a number between 1 and 10.

Anywhere in that.

In that scale.

If you died right now, how certain are you that you would go to heaven.

And so again, 22 years ago, I said a 7.

And the second question was this.

If you stood before God and he said, why should I let you in?

What would you say?

And so you can think about that.

And.

And I ask somebody that every day of my life.

And I hear, because I was good, because I tried hard, because I went to church, because I was a Christian, because I was in a Christian family, because I did this, because I did that, because I.

Because I.

Yeah, and that's it.

I said, because I've tried hard, because I.

Because I'm a good person, because I want to do the right thing.

And they.

That person just shared with me the greatest news the world has ever heard.

That it's not because I anything.

It's because God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to suffer and die in my place.

And he defeated death and raised him from the dead.

And the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is available to me, that that spirit can come and live in my life and show me how to overcome temptation, that no temptation has seized me except what is common to man.

And God is faithful.

He will not allow me to be tempted beyond what I can bear.

And he will provide a way out so that I can stand up under.

And so the reality is I can be at 10.

It's first john 5, 13.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life, that you can know the scripture says you can know Ephesians 2, 8, 9, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith.

It's not of yourself.

It's the gift of God, not by work, so that no one can boast.

But Romans 10, 9.

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved.

Not might be saved, should be saved, could be saved, will be saved, but will be saved because of what Christ did for us.

And so as I stand before God, and I don't think he'll ask this, but if he did, why should I let you in?

I would say God.

You shouldn't.

You saw prom night and you saw.

You saw things I did.

You saw what I looked at.

You know, the kind of porn that I preferred.

Before I was a.

A follower of Jesus, you know that.

That time that I got so high with those guys and the things I looked at and.

And when I was in that hotel room where I'm wondering if anybody's Going to know what I looked at on the tv.

You saw all the things.

But you, God, you pay for those things through Jesus.

And so now I walk in the freedom, not needing to hide my sin any longer.

But as you said, James 5, I can confess my sin.

That's it.

Confess your sins to others so that they can pray for you, so that you may be healed.

For the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective.

And so I can now have the freedom to confess my sin, to bring it to the light and live transparently and pursue righteousness and pursue holiness because he's holy.

And so I think we have to be as we're armed with the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, we've got to be armed with the gospel of Jesus Christ and so that we can bring the dead to life.

Come on, you're jpr.

You're on fire, man.

Seriously, like, that was so needed.

And I want to show you something.

This is not a plug, I promise, but, like, I think this will help you understand how much of an alignment there is in the body of Christ right now.

So the book that I literally just released a couple months ago because my publisher had asked me, like, hey, I want you to do a book on freedom.

You know, what are the steps that you take your church through?

And I really sat with it and I was like, man, what is a title that speaks to the gospel?

And because I think the problem with the deliverance movement is that it can teeter into a workspace thing and people don't understand salvation, they don't understand the gospel.

And so I kid you not, you literally said the word, which is why I want to show it, because I was like, wow, this is so on time.

So the title is inherit your freedom.

And so it's the concept of, like, you don't, you don't earn your freedom, you inherit it.

And I think a lot of spiritual warfare insinuates I have to fight harder.

And it's like, no, no, you need to surrender deeper because, like, the deeper you surrender and that, that's where freedom comes from.

And so literally, my book is called inherit your freedom, which this is a low key rebuke on the deliverance community, because it's like, you know, we need, we need to learn how to inherit it.

Not just fight for it, but actually to understand that it was already won and we can receive what was already won.

I think some of these things, themes like inheritance versus, you know, earning it through works, it brings correction and alignment.

And we know the devil hates that because he wants people to think that they're always going to be bound.

They're always going to be, you know, got to cast more demons out so that.

So your book inherit your freedom, which I love that title.

One thing I'm doing at these, you know, at these gatherings, unite gatherings and college campuses is I'll.

I'll take something, you know, like a.

Like a.

You know, it's just like.

Like candy, or I'll.

I'll pull out a 20 bill or something and I'll just say, hey, hey.

Is anybody gospel with you?

Is anybody here?

Like, hey, I'm trying.

You're like, man, I'm trying.

Like, I'm trying.

I want.

I want to believe this.

I'm.

I'm trying to live the Christian life.

I'm trying.

I'm trying.

I'm trying to accept Jesus.

I'm trying to be a Christian.

Anybody feel that and that, like, their hands will go up and I'll grab somebody, like, usually on the second or third row, and I was like, come up here and.

And they'll just walk up to the stage and I'll.

And I'll hold out that, you know, Snickers bar or whatever it is, and I'll go, I want you to try to take this.

And they'll take it.

And I'm like.

I'm like, okay, no, no, give it back to me.

I want you to try to take it.

And they'll take it again.

And I go, no, no, no, give it back to me.

I want you to try to take it.

And they're so confused, and, you know, thousands of people are watching them, and.

And then they take it again.

And I say, you can't try to take something that's being freely given to you.

Wow.

You can take it or.

Or you can leave it.

Those are your options.

You can take it or you can leave it.

In Luke, chapter 18, and the story is repeated throughout the Gospels, but in Luke 18, he says, unless you receive the kingdom of heaven like a child, you will not enter it.

So he says, you receive this grace that he's bringing that Jesus is giving you free.

He's like, here it is.

And you can say, I want it, or you can say, I don't want it.

But there you can't really get stuck in the.

Trying to receive it.

The choice, just because of the podcast that you're listening to right now, it's your choice.

You can say, I want that, and I accept it.

In the name of Jesus, I accept it.

Or you can say, I do not want that, and I reject it, but you're brought to a conclusion there.

Man, I'm so thankful, so thankful for you having this conversation.

And, and thank, thank you for writing that book.

And man, Pastor Mike, I'm just grateful for you, man.

Oh, come on.

I, well, the feelings mutual.

And I'm so thankful for you.

And this was like a really powerful, insightful conversation.

And I love how it's like, listen, Jesus Christ disempowered the enemy.

And so let's not empower him.

You know, let's not give him a jurisdiction that was already taken away.

And a lot of it is just enforcing what Christ has already given us access to and standing in that authority.

And I love that that's what you did with your friend on the, on the golf course.

It's like, hey, I'm enforcing what's already been won.

You know, you have access to freedom and you, you have to inherit it, which is.

And I think our culture struggles with that because we're, we're grinders, we're hustlers, we're workers.

Like, we understand the wages of sin is death.

We understand wages because we know how to earn a grade in school.

We know how to earn a paycheck at, at our job.

But the gift of God is eternal life.

And we're just bad gift receivers.

And you know that.

And I think even that journey about, we talked about cessationism, it's like, man, there.

These are the gifts of the spirit.

And so it's like the, the real question is like, are we becoming good gift receivers?

And I love your heart, because a heart that's open to the gospel is a heart that becomes open to the gifts.

Because it's like, I received the gift of salvation.

What other gifts do you have for me?

And so I, I love that.

You know, there's that verse that says deliverance is the children's bread.

And so, you know, I love that concept of it's.

It's a gift.

And so, you know, you're a pioneer.

You're a forerunner.

You're bold, man.

You're.

You're a risk taker.

I applaud you for that.

And just stepping into this territory and it's, it's just funny how, you know, in God's divine wisdom, he's bringing guys like you and I together for such a time as this.

And, man, I do believe that's something.

You know, I know.

Of course, people have been saying Christ is going to come back for a long time, but it's like when a woman is in, in those birthing pangs, the, the frequency, the intensity and the duration of those contractions are signaling to how soon it is.

And I think we both agree that, man, this, this world that we're living in, we need books.

Like, your story has a villain.

We need to unmask and unveil the enemy.

We need to be equipped because, yeah, it's, I mean, even in secular scientific community, they've, they've moved the Doomsday Clock to 11:59.

So it's, you know what I mean?

So it's like, it's like, you know, Christians are like, oh, we're not in the end times.

It's like, I don't know, scientists who, atheistic scientists believe we are.

So, you know, and that's something that I've been looking a lot into.

So I want to give you the final word.

And you know, if you just want to, you know, people read your book and I believe many of them are going to Amazon, they're getting it right now.

And what do you hope that they do on the other side of it?

You know, because my book deals a lot with like generational inheritance things that you deal with at, you know, the epigenetic, we take a look at the biological, the spiritual.

And so I want people to, I believe that family is revival and the enemy hates family.

Family.

He hates strong f.

He hates fathers in the home.

And so my book is like, man, God's design for humanity is family.

And my, my, my hope is that.

So when people read your story as a villain and they're buying the book, now they're getting the book, like what are they doing and what's the result of it?

Yeah, I think I would just implore you as, as the Apostle Paul did.

And I, I really think that in Ephesians 6 he's describing the authentic, real deal Christian.

And so I would say, walk in righteousness, stay in step with the Spirit, pursue holiness because he's holy.

Not, it's not legalism.

Like Tozer said, the church will be at the height of its heresy when it calls obedience.

Legalism.

Like, I'm not talking about rules, man.

I'm talking about a relationship with your creator through Jesus Christ that you would remain in step with him, that you would rid your life of any unholiness that you would drag into the light, anything in darkness, if there's an abortion that you thought, hey, I'm going to take this to my grave.

I'm never going to tell anybody about this time.

I got too drunk and did things that I never thought I would do.

I, I would bring it to the light.

I would tell believers, I would have them pray over you.

I would renounce the enemy and I would walk in the spirit.

I would trust in Christ.

If you haven't, surrender your life to Jesus Christ and, and then stay in step with the spirit.

You know, find, find a Bible teaching church.

Plug in there, you know, serve there.

Become a, you know, be a member there.

Get other believers around you and live the fullness of the Christian life.

Because the thief comes only to steal, kill and destroy.

But Christ has come so that we might have life and have it to the fullest, have it abundantly.

And so the Christian life is not boring.

Listen, I've drank deeply from the world.

Like, I've had the sex, I've done the drugs.

I, I lived in the penthouse condo.

I drove the car and had a different watch for every day of the week, week.

And I have found something beautiful in Jesus Christ.

Like, and I'm no, and I'm sober minded.

And I'm just telling you, there's no turning back.

I found something good in Jesus Christ.

Burn the ships.

Let's go.

You know, and, and I, I want that for everybody that's listening to this right now.

Come on.

Oh, so powerful, man.

And you know what?

That's it.

I, Even for all the faults and failures of this deliverance movement or whatever's happening, one thing that I've experienced kind of being invited into that world a little bit over the last several years is a real heart for holiness, you know, and, and people just saying, man, I want to live right.

I don't want to have these things in my life.

And, and I think what I love is like, how gracious you've been with this conversation and, you know, being willing to understand that.

And, you know, I, I really do.

You know, think about how he's returning for a bride without spot or blemish.

But he's the one who does the, who irons out the wrinkles, he's the one who removes the blemishes.

We just got to submit to that process.

And so it's like, man, God's bringing these book resources like your story has a villain, like, you know, inherit your freedom.

And I just think what that's pointing to is, hey, the, the bride, he's working on the pride.

He's, he's getting us increasingly ready.

So I'm excited to hear all the testimonies in the chat, guys.

I can't wait to see what you had to say about this.

We, we love getting into the comment section.

And you'll have to come back.

We'll have to go round two, go a little bit deeper and all this.

We're going to have you on becoming something, and it's going to be awesome.

Come on.

Yeah.

It'll be fun.

Yeah.

Because I got so many more questions for you, but I know that we're busy men, but we'll have to reconnect.

We'll do part two.

We'll keep the conversation going.

So thank you so much, my joy brother.

Thank you so much, Pastor.