Quit Playing Mind Games! with Pastor Paul Daugherty

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Hello everyone, I'm Stephen Strang, and welcome to this special edition of the Strang Report.

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You know, anxiety and depression and mental health issues are very real in our culture

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and even in the church, but it's a topic that most Christian and most Christian leaders

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don't deal with. But today my guest is Paul Daugherty. He's a pastor of a mega church

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in Tulsa, Oklahoma, called Victory Church, and he's written a new book that's just come

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out from Faith Words, and we're going to talk about his new book today and about how he

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is telling some of his own story. So let me first of all welcome you to my podcast. Paul,

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thank you for fitting this in and congratulations on this new book called Mind Games, Winning

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the Battle for Your Mental and Emotional Health. Yes, sir. I'm very proud of you because I've

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known you since before you were born. Did you know that? I was friends with your mom

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and dad in the early 80s, and then a couple years later you came along and, you know,

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I grieved, I seriously grieved when your father passed away at age 57 and kind of watched

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the transition with your mom taking over the church and then later you taking on the church.

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So you know, I'm not exactly your uncle, but I'm proud like an uncle. And then for you

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to come out with this major book, I'm just so proud of you. So now that I have the personal

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stuff out of the way, we can do a deep dive into Mind Matters. Why did you write this

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book? Yes, sir. Well, first off, it's an honor to be with you and have admired what you do

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from afar growing up and always read your magazines as well growing up as a kid in our

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house. So big, big fan of yours and thank you for having me on your show on your podcast.

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Like you said, I grew up as a pastor's kid when my dad passed away suddenly of cancer.

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He was a man of faith and a man who always spoke about the healing power of Jesus. And

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our church was called Victory. But when he passed away, it felt like it felt like a defeat.

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And it felt like my faith and everything I had been taught about healing and just, you

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know, a life of faith and victory was kind of rocked in that moment. And I watched as

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our church went through a very painful season of loss and grief and thousands of people

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started leaving our church during that time. It wasn't because they didn't like me or didn't

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like my mom in that role as an interim pastor. It's because they missed my dad. And many

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of them just honestly lost faith for a season because in their minds, they were like, if

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there was any guy that should have been healed of cancer, it was Billy Joe Doherty. If there

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was any person that they imagined was going to walk out with a testimony and, you know,

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come back to Victory Church and talk about the faithfulness of God and God healing them

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of cancer, it was going to be him. So when it didn't happen, we lost a lot of people

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in our church, a lot of our staff, and went through a really hard time or a hard season

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that lasted probably four and a half years. During that time, I personally was carrying

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a heavy burden, wanting to make sure I didn't lose everything my dad worked hard for, but

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then also questioning faith myself, questioning why this happened, why didn't he get healed,

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and then walking through my own journey of trying to lead the church and trying to serve

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my mom and prepare to step in as pastor while I was dealing with all these mind games. And

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so I wrote this book, really started writing it during that time. I started writing down

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journaling what I was going through, the depression, the anxiety, the fear, the panic, the sense

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of failure, the sense of like...

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Why was it a failure? It wasn't a failure by you.

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I think I felt like I didn't pray hard enough during that time. Now, I talk about this in

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the book. I personally took on more responsibility than I should have, as if my prayers were

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broken, as if my faith was broken. And then through that, when people started leaving

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the church, a pastor takes it personal anytime someone leaves the congregation, even if they

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say, hey, it's not about you, we're looking for another place, or we just are taking a

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break from church. So I took every person who left personal, and I felt like I was failing

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at carrying on my dad's legacy during that time. And I felt like my world was crashing.

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There were seasons during that depression where I didn't want to get out of bed. I would

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wake up and want to go back to sleep. I would eat more food. I would just try to get rid

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of the pain in whatever way I could. One of the things that I would do often is I would

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go up to our church building when no one was there, because my dad built this auditorium

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right before he died that was a 4,800 seat auditorium, which in a city like Tulsa, we're

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not Houston, Texas, we're not Orlando, Florida, we're not Miami. We don't have millions of

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people in our population. We have about 600,000 people in our city, which is large, but he

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built an auditorium that was so big. And I was like, once he passed away in my mind,

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I was like, this is never going to be filled. We're going to end up having to sell the church.

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All these worst case scenarios started going through my head. Like we're going to lose

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people. We're going to lose this place. We have a dream center. We won't be able to feed

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the hungry, help the poor. We're going to have to close down our school because we had

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420 employees when he died.

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Well, you also have a pretty major school. Is it like from K to 12?

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Yes, sir. We have a K through 12.

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I know a few people that are affiliated with your school. It's got a very good reputation.

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Is the school affected by his death?

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Oh, everything. Our school, our dream center, our camp, our college. So there's five different

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entities with different boards and different things. And so we had a college with 200 plus

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students. We had international Bible schools, 2000 international Bible schools that he had

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started in other nations. We had a dream center in our city modeled after Tommy and Matthew

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Barnett's dream center in LA and Phoenix. But in our city, it was ran by victory. Everything

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was affected. Donations went down. People's attendance went down massively. It wasn't

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just like a little bit. It was like drastic decrease. And so that led to a spiral in me,

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which I talk about in this book. Again, like the reason I wrote the book is because I want

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someone out there to know you're not alone in your struggles of panic, worry, doubt,

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fear. You haven't lost your faith. You haven't lost your Christianity. And I talk about in

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the book that I discovered when I was at my low point, I started searching the Bible,

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just going, does God use depressed people? Does God minister through people who have

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suicidal thoughts? And I realized Elijah was one of those guys in the Bible that spiraled

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into a depression and even had thoughts where he said, God, take my life. I'm no better

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than my ancestors. I don't want to live. And yet God didn't abandon him. God didn't cancel

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him as a prophet. God actually pursued him in the wilderness, spoke to him in a mountain

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through a whisper and said, Hey, I'm not finished with your story. I'm not done with your testimony.

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David went through bouts of depression. Of course, we know Solomon did until he came

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back to the fear of the Lord, but Peter went through his own depression. And when I think

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about all these people that God moved through and then modern day heroes, people that I

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didn't know, like Mother Teresa went through her own deep seasons of dark.

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These are stories that you tell in the book.

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Yes. So through the book, I help readers to know you're not alone in your struggle. Your

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faith is not broken. God has not abandoned you. God still loves you. God wants to help

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you. The key and the cure to our depression is not just going to come through good counseling,

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good trauma therapy, or maybe medication, although those things are helpful. But ultimately

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there is a spiritual component to help us walk in victory over mental and emotional

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unintended, right? Yes. Walk in victory. Well, you know, thankfully I don't battle depression.

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I battle other things, but I've got a good friend who battles depression. He's a strong

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Christian. In fact, now that I think of it, he's an O.R.U. grad lives in fact, he lives

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there in Tulsa. And so being his friend, I mean, there are days he can't even get out

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of bed. And I consider it to be a very strong Christian. It's almost like a medical thing

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of some kind. And so, and the little bit I've read about it, when people are like this,

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it's like, it's almost like a lifelong struggle. So what, what happened that you turned that

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around because you know, that that's in your past. That's not in your present. Yes. Okay.

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So something crazy happened that I talk about, like in the first couple of chapters, by the

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way, you're a publisher's dream holding up the book at every time, every time you can.

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Yeah. Every time they tell me, they say, you know, my friend who helped me write the book,

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he's like, anytime you get the chance to talk about it, hold it in your hand. For me. Okay.

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So right before my dad passed, I was working as our college pastor as a pastor's kid. We

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were free labor our whole life. So the first time I got hired on was when I was 23, right

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after I graduated O.R.U. my dad said, okay, we've got a position on staff where it's going

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to start off part time, work your way into full time. And it was with our college ministry.

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I started off as the college pastor and we had a young adults ministry of about 250,

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300 young adults. And then it blew up to like 800 young adults. Well, during that time,

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prior to that, I had worked as a janitor at oral Roberts university where I went to college

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and the only position they had on staff at O.R.U. was a janitorial position. I actually

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worked with a couple of guys that I think went on to go and work for your son at relevant

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side story. But anyways, when I was working there, they gave me a bunch of keys and I

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had access to all the doors across O.R.U. when I came to work for my dad, he only gave

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me one key. And so I talk about in the book how I was kind of frustrated. I said, dad,

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I had more trust and access as a janitor across the street than I do underneath my own dad's

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ministry. And he said, Paul, the only key you need is the key I give you. And I didn't

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think about that for a long time. When he passed away, I remember oftentimes being locked

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out of the church building, locked out of certain rooms, doors. I didn't have the key

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to, I would have to call a security guard, a janitor. Hey, can you come unlock the doors?

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And they were always like, why doesn't your mom give you a key? And during that time,

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my mom said, remember just to use the key your dad gave you. And when it's time for

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you to someday be the pastor, I'll give you the rest of the keys. And I felt this frustration

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that I wasn't just locked out of doors physically. I felt locked out of doors spiritually, mentally.

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I felt like I was locked out of being able to cast vision in our church. I felt like

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I couldn't raise money, that my dad was such a great visionary that attracted people.

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Say it, he was a great fundraiser.

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He was a great fundraiser. I mean, we literally saw God's provision on everything with debt

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freedom because he was anointed to do that. And I felt locked out of that door. I thought,

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I'm not going to be able to do what he did. Not only that, he was a great preacher. And

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I felt like my preaching gift was not as strong as his. I felt like he was a great apostle,

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like he had raised up other pastors and leaders and churches all around the world. And I thought,

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I'm so unqualified, I'm so unworthy. I don't have the keys to unlock those kinds of doors.

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One night, two years after he passed, I was outside the building battling depression.

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In fact, that same week I had contemplated taking my life. Now, I have never thought

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about it since then. And prior to that, I hadn't thought about it. But I was at such

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a low point and our church was in such a bad place financially. The morale was down. I

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hated where I was at in life and I hated where our church was at. We just, it felt so, so

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sad. And I remember that same week I was walking down a street where there was a bridge overpass

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of a highway and I looked over the overpass and it was about a 40 foot drop. And I thought,

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if I jumped, I wouldn't, I might hurt myself, but I wouldn't die. But if a semi truck hit

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me, maybe I'd be gone. And it was a very dark thought. And I was watching as the semi trucks

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kept driving under the bridge and the enemy was playing mind games in my head. The enemy

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was literally using my mind as a playground and just beaten me down. And that same week

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I was reminded of scriptures my dad taught me and mom taught me growing up. Hey, I will

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live and not die and declare the works of the Lord greater as he who lives in me than

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he that's in the world. I'm more than a conqueror. So I started quoting scriptures and I talked

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myself away from that bridge. And I said, Satan, I refuse to jump. Even though I'm super

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depressed, I refuse to throw away my life. I believe God has a purpose. Even though I

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can't see it, I believe God's not done with me. So I walked away from the bridge, but

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life didn't get better. But something happened that same week that I'll never forget. I was

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outside our church building. I couldn't get into the church. I called security. They said,

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Hey, we're locking up doors in North Tulsa at the dream center, about 20 miles from our

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main campus. We won't be back for another hour. We got to do some things here. So I

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start trying to break into our church building. I punched the glass. I punched, you know,

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I'm hurting my hand. I start trying to shimmy my credit card through the cracks, trying

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to pick the lock. Nothing's working. Finally, I pull out that key my dad gave me and I thought,

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okay, I'm going to shove this key into the door, wiggle it around, yank that door and

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break in. When I put it in the keyhole, it fit perfectly. And that kind of threw me.

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And then I turned it in and unlocked the outside door to our main campus. And I thought, God,

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did you just change my key? What just happened? And then I went to other doors in the building

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and I started putting that same little key my dad gave me in, turning it. And I realized

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he had given me the master key and I didn't know I had it. And as I'm walking through

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those halls, I finally come to the main auditorium door and I thought, if this key works on this

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door, that this room-

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So you had the master key, but you used it just for some doors and thought it was a key

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just for those doors. You never had occasion to find out it was a master key. That is a

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pretty incredible gift that he gave you. And he probably wanted you to figure it out yourself.

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Yeah, I only used it on my office. I thought it was only a key for my office door. And

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so that night, as I'm discovering it unlocks all these doors, I come to the main auditorium

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and I go, if this master key unlocks this room, the room that's intimidated me the most,

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the room where we've lost, our chairs are empty, our seats are empty, where we've been

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setting up pipe and drape curtains because we can't fill up even the floor section. I

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thought, if this key unlocks this door, everything's going to change. And I turned the key to unlock

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the door and I sat on this stage and I started laughing and crying. And I looked up to heaven

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as if I could see my dad looking through a window in heaven and I could see him just

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going, duh, you've had the master key to victory this whole time. And I sat there and I thought,

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I've had the master key to victory. I've had the master key to victory as a building, but

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I've had the master key to victory in my life through Jesus Christ this whole time. And

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I've been telling myself, I don't have what it takes. I'm not good enough. I'm unqualified.

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I'm not worthy. I don't have access. I don't have the key. And I heard the Lord say, Paul,

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not only you, but every believer has the master key to victory. They have the master key to

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walk in victory, to walk in a sound mind, to walk in authority over demonic strongholds,

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to take captive every thought that's not from God. It's not just for Billy Joe. It's not

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just for Steve Strang. It's not just for Oral Roberts or Lester Somerall or Smith Wigglesworth

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or Billy Graham, but every believer can walk in victory. And I felt the Lord like had an

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epiphany. And I sat on that stage and I looked at that big auditorium and I thought, this

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room, I used to think this room was too big for us to ever minister to people. And then

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I heard the Lord say, it's too small for how many people you're going to reach if you start

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walking in authority and walking in victory and take your God given right as a son for

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what I've called you to walk in. And I felt the Lord say it's time to shake off the insecurity,

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the inferiority, the I'm not qualified, the I'm not good enough and start, start walking

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in a greater level of boldness and courage. And so that next week, it was like something

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started to shift. I didn't come immediately out of the depression. It took while, but

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over the next year, it was like I started gaining ground. I started walking in greater

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peace, greater love, greater joy, greater stability. I never went back to that bridge.

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Since then, I've never contemplated throwing away my life. I've been able to walk in victory

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in areas where I used to be jealous of other people used to feel like I'm not as good as

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this person. I tell a whole chapter in the book where a couple of guys in our city just

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blew up with their ministry. One of them was Mike Todd, and he was a guy that I grew up

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with. And I remember battling such deep envy when he blew up as a minister. And I felt

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like the Holy Spirit was like challenging me. Hey, Paul, you've got to learn to celebrate

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your brother, not be envious, not be threatened, but celebrate what I'm doing through his ministry

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through him. And that was another one of the mind games that I had to walk through. The

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mind games of worry when our ministry was financially in a really hard place, we were

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going to have to lay off a lot of people. And when my dad died, we did, we laid off

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150 employees. It was really painful over a matter of 18 months, people who raised me,

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people who rocked me as a baby. And I had to sit down and say, we can't afford to keep

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you on staff. So then when I stepped in as pastor, we were threatened right when COVID

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hit with another financial stressful season. How do we pay for people when we can't have

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a school open, when we can't have certain things going. And so the whole book is really

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dealing with the battlefield of the mind, whether it's worry, panic, depression, envy,

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or just a sense of I'm unqualified insecurity. But those are some of the stories that I share.

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Well, that's exciting. And the book has just come out. I haven't read it yet, but I can

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promise you I'm going to, because it sounds so good. But and there's two things I want

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to talk about in the time we have left. The first is, you know, your problems are real.

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And I know the family and the situation. I can remember when victory, what year was victory

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started probably in the late 70s. 1981. 81. Well, I knew your parents probably in 82 or

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83. And so I was right. I they had kind of a just a startup church. So I've seen this.

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But you know what, you're you're blessed, blessed, blessed to big church and all this

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kind of stuff. And most people look at you as like you're born with a silver spoon in

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your mouth. And I mean, the story is phenomenal, because there are a lot of ministries where

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the leader implodes for some reason, and, and there isn't a happy outcome. But why do

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you say to the average person that's working down at the paper mill, or driving Uber, or

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whatever they're doing farming land, and they have problems based on their background, their

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genetics, their circumstances in life? What do you say to them that they can have this

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kind of turnaround? Because everybody that battles this needs to have some kind of turnaround,

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they need to have that master key in their life. What is that? How how how does it apply?

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Because a lot of people say, this is great. You got a great testimony applies to you.

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It doesn't apply to me.

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Hmm. I think it applies to everyone. I think at the end of the day, victory starts in the

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mind, right? So whether I'm working at Starbucks or quick trip or driving as an Uber driver

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or teaching in a classroom or I'm a plumber or electrician or a lawyer or dentist or a

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stay at home mom, I think all of us want to have peace in our minds. I think that's a

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desire of every human being. I just want peace. I want peace. I want joy. I want to feel good

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about my life. I don't want to daily hate getting out of bed. So whether you're a pastor

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or again, you're one of those other seasons of life or other roles in life, we all need

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peace. We all need joy. And that is one in the mind. It starts on the inside, right?

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The battle for a better life is between the ears. If I can begin to think the right thoughts,

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take captive of the wrong thoughts, figure out a formula every time a bad thought comes

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up every time I'm tempted to live in sadness that my dad's not here. You know, I talk with

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people all the time at our church who are in different spheres of life and different,

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you know, careers. And they tell me your testimony about losing your dad and dealing with grief

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and loss and pain and the loss of people in the church directly relates to things I'm

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dealing with with my own grief and loss. So I think grief in general is a, it's a connection

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point for all of us, whether you live in Brazil, China, South Korea, North America, Florida,

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Oklahoma, we're all, we're all dealing with our own version of grief from loss, whether

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it's the loss of a parent, loss of a child, a miscarriage, the loss of a job, the loss

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of a relationship that was once good with your family. And now things are sour and you

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haven't talked to that person in 10 years. And I think that loss creates sadness. It

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creates depression. It creates worry. It creates, in some cases, for some people, it creates

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a deep sense of anger at God or anger at life. And so how do we deal with that? This is what

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the book is about. It's getting back to that place of how do I find peace through the word

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of God. So I give a spiritual, but also practical kind of plan of how to get to a place of personal

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peace, personal joy, personal love for your life, feeling good about life. And I talk

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about really some things you can do practically, things like serving and loving other people.

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I didn't know that what I would do for others was actually going to be a cure for my own

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life, that actually going to nursing homes and visiting dads who have lost their kids

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and they've outlived their own children and they're alone in a nursing home that I would

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find healing in that nursing home sitting with parents who've lost their kids because

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I was a kid who's lost my dad. So there's practical things I talk about in the book

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that an Uber driver, a barista at a coffee shop, a teacher at a school, a mom at home

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could go, man, I can do that today. I could apply to...

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But what they need to do is go buy the book or I went on Amazon myself today and it's

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available on audio. And on Amazon it says in this important book, a mega church pastor

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acknowledges the mental health crisis happening in our churches today and gives readers practical

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tools to fight back against depression, anxiety, insecurity, and to help them find victory,

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important word there, victory. And we're almost out of time, but I know that your father was

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an amazing leader, so is your mom in her own way.

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She is.

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And you have emerged as a leader. And I understand that Dr. Mark Rutland, our mutual friend,

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was a significant part in that. So we were talking about this a little bit before we

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went on air. So what leadership thing did you learn from Dr. Rutland that you can pass

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along? He has the National Institute on Christian Leadership. I've been through it myself, believe

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it or not.

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Yes.

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I went through the very first cohort and learned a lot.

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A game changer. It changed me. I went through that actually right as I was coming into the

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role of stepping in as pastor, as I was coming out of that depression, I went through his

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class and I actually went through it twice and learned so much about the importance of

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not giving up and as a leader, getting that grit, that determination that if God gives

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me the chance to lead a group of people in whatever capacity, that I'm going to do whatever

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it takes to take them from where they are to where God wants them to be.

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And his whole class on turnaround leadership, what he did at Calvary Chapel, what he did

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at Southeastern at Oral Roberts University, I got to see it firsthand here in Tulsa at

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ORU. And I got to watch as he was doing that. So I think for me, biggest takeaway I got

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was the example of really changing a culture and a narrative. At ORU, things were very

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depressing for a lot of the faculty and students because of walking through just a shift, a

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major shift in our university and people not knowing what was next, people not knowing

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who's going to be the next president and where is our university headed.

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And when he stepped in, he stepped in with such clarity and just a narrative of joy.

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And he began this confession every time he got up on stage that we would be the most

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joyful university in the universe. And it was like this wild declaration that I still

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remember. I don't remember all the exact words, but I remember what it made me feel. It made

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me feel like he has a vision for the future that's going to shift the culture on campus

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from sadness to joy and shift that mind game that happens in people's lives. We all need

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this. Every student on that campus got better as a result of his leadership. And I had already

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graduated, but I was a student in masters, getting my master's degree while he was there.

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And I loved that class. I loved all that he taught about how to handle crazy board members,

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manipulative Jezebel spirits, how to handle the Absalom spirit. He had such good practical

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tools for every leader out there on how to turn things around.

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And that's such a good testimony. And as we wrap up, I want to encourage people to share

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this. If you know someone who's going through a difficult time, share this, post it on social

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media. If you don't subscribe to the Strang Report, do so. Smack that little bell so

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you know when we're on live on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 4pm Eastern time. And go to Amazon.com

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or your Christian bookstore or Barnes and Noble and get Mind Games by Paul Doherty,

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winning the battle for your mental and emotional health. Thank you for watching and tune in

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for another report for another episode of the Strang Report on the Charisma Podcast

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Network. God bless you.

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Welcome back. Do you ever feel discouraged? Do you need hope? The world is so upside down

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that even if you believe there is power in the Holy Spirit, sometimes you need to be

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reminded that greater is he that is within us than he is in the world. My new book, Spirit-Led

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Living in an Upside-Down World, was written to give you hope, to remind you of things

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you know, to explain spiritual truths that you didn't understand or maybe have forgotten.

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I draw on my decades of covering the worldwide move of the Holy Spirit to give you examples

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and stories of great men and women of God, from Jack Hayford to Catherine Kuhlman and

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many others explaining spiritual gifts and telling stories of victory in the face of

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trials and temptations. I wrote this book for you and I want you to read it. It's easy

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to read, with lots of practical stories to help you. It is not a theological treatise

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on the Holy Spirit. In a way, it's a self-help book, looking at the spiritual side of life.

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So if you long for more of God and to experience the power of the Holy Spirit and the power

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to rebuke the spiritual attacks in your life and boldness to stand for God when the cancel

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culture wants you to sit down and shut up, then my book, Spirit-Led Living in an Upside-Down

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World is for you. You can find the book wherever Christian books are sold, including amazon.com

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or mycharismashop.com. Remember, the Holy Spirit is here to help us now and for all

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the days ahead, no matter how upside down the world gets. Enjoy the book and God bless

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you.