Who Owns Audio Now? The Industry Consolidation Problem

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Y'all ready to be history?

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Get started.

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Welcome.

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Hi.

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Hi.

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Hi.

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Hello everyone.

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To the Pro Audio Suite.

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These guys are professional.

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They're motivated.

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With Tech the VO stars.

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George Witten.

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Founder of Source Elements.

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Robert Marshall.

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International Audio Engineer.

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Darren Robbo Robertson.

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And Global Voice.

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Andrew Peters.

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Thanks to Triboo.

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Austrian Audio.

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Making passion heard.

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Source Elements.

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George the Tech Witten.

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And Robbo and AP's international demos.

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To find out more about us, check theproaudiosuite

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.com.

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Line up, man!

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Here we go.

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And welcome to another Pro Audio Suite.

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Thanks to Austrian Audio.

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Making passion heard.

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And Tribooth.

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Don't forget the code.

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T-R-I-P-A-P 200.

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That will get you $200 off your Tribooth.

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Now talking about Austrian Audio, they sort of

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merged with DPA last year?

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This time last year.

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It was announced at NAMM, remember?

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Yeah.

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Well, it's kind of happened again.

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You saw this, Robbo.

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What's happening?

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It's an annual event.

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Well, the whole kit and caboodle's been sold

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again.

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I haven't got the article in front of

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me to know who it was sold to,

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but yeah, that whole lot has now been

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bundled up and sold off to someone else.

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It's actually a company that has also got

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Solid State Audio.

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What else have they got?

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I did have a look.

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I think it's called Wissicon.

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Yeah, they're called Audio Tonics.

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Audio Tonics, that's right.

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The Audio Tonics company, and they have now

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acquired the group of DPA, Wissicon, Austrian Audio.

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They own SSL.

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They own Harrison.

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Yeah, I know Audio Tonics.

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Gosh.

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Now only one company in audio exists.

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Wow, they own Allen & Heath.

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Yes.

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Calrec.

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Digico.

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Digigrid.

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Fourier Audio.

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Group One Limited.

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Harrison.

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JH.

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Klang.

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Slate.

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SSL.

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See, I've got to be honest.

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I don't think that's good for the industry.

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Well, like I said, now only one company

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exists.

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Yeah.

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Sonible and Sound Devices.

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So now we just need Google to buy

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all that.

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Yeah.

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Well, there you go.

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Or whoever.

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Or LG.

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Or Apple.

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Whoever.

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One of the three remaining companies.

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Well, you know how Samsung bought Harman?

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Oh, yeah.

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Samsung bought Harman International.

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Harman International owned AKG.

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So it seems like it's...

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I mean, call me freaking crazy, but that's

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not totally crazy to think that another company

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like LG or somebody would come along to

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buy all the IP that they've scooped up

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by buying all these other companies.

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It's like Pac-Man, isn't it?

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Yeah, it is.

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It is like Pac-Man.

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Do you realize?

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Rocka, rocka, rocka, rocka, rocka, rocka, rocka, rocka.

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It's like Darwinism with the big fish eating

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the bigger fish, eating the bigger fish until

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it explodes and then you get a bunch

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of mini guppies everywhere again.

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And then we'll all be paying $3,000

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a month for software.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Or you can't use anything.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I'm wondering how that's going to affect Austrian

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Audio.

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I hope it doesn't affect them because I

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think that's part of their charm, isn't it?

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That sort of little boutique, well, not boutique,

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but almost boutique sort of feel that they

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have about them, that personal touch.

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And NAMM, even though it's like this big

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company and there's DPA, like Austrian Audio still

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had kind of its own booth.

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You wouldn't have necessarily known they're owned by

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DPA when you went to the booth.

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It felt like...

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Yeah, they shared a wall.

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Yeah, that's all they did is share a

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wall.

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And they shared a piano.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yes.

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But you know what I mean?

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Like even in their communication and all that

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sort of stuff, it always felt like it

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was personal.

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And I hope for their sake that that

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doesn't change because for me that was a

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lot of their charm.

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I mean, the gear is amazing.

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They don't need the charm to sell the

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gear, but it was just nice to have

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that.

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Well, the funny thing about Austrian Audio is

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they're probably the oldest new company in audio.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Everyone there is old?

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What are you saying?

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Well, I wouldn't actually necessarily say that.

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Bit like this podcast really, but yeah.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I mean, the actual IP, the actual design

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of microphones and the concepts, those are the

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real guys that did it.

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The brain, yeah, the collected experiences.

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I wonder how deep that goes.

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I mean, Neumann obviously has controlled their own

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IP for a really, really long, long, long

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time.

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By the way, Neumann's bringing back the U47.

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Oh, really?

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Oh, that's going to happen, eh?

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That's what I heard.

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I read that somewhere.

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It seemed logical enough.

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They did it with the U67.

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Kind of.

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They brought it back as the TLM67.

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It wasn't a tube.

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No, no, no.

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No, no, no.

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It did a full U67.

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No, they re-released the U67.

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Oh, they did a full U67 reissue?

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Okay, cool.

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Oh, yeah.

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Like three or four years ago.

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It was cheap.

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It was eight grand.

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Exactly.

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Well, cheap compared to a $20,000 vintage

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U67, right?

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Well, that's true.

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Well, maybe.

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I mean, we sold one for one of

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my clients not that long ago, and I

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think he got eight grand for his used

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one.

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An original?

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Only eight?

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Yeah.

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I think that's what it was.

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Must have had some issue or something.

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Well, I think it had an aftermarket power

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supply, so that maybe hurt the value some.

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But, yeah, it wasn't crazy.

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But, yeah, those U67s, I'm sure, I haven't

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looked on Reverb in a while.

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Well, okay, maybe not so bad.

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$10,000 to $16,000 depending on condition.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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But they were always more expensive than the

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U47, the U67.

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No, I don't know.

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The U47s, they both have pretty huge cachet.

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I don't know that a U47 goes for

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less than a 67.

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I'd expect the opposite.

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Definitely, the 47 is more rare than the

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67, I think.

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So, right now, if you want something that

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would be closest to a real U47, you're

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probably going to buy the Telefunken.

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Yeah.

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I mean, any copy of a U47 is

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easily in the $2,000 range, and you're

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probably looking at a warm audio for something

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in that range, and then up to probably

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another $12,000.

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And they all have various...

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The warm audio is only $850.

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It's only how much?

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$10?

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It's really cheap.

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What?

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$850.

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For a tube, a FET 47 or a

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tube 47?

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No, a tube 47.

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Jeez.

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Yeah, with the external power supply, with the

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fully variable pattern.

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But if you want to get something that

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actually is probably closer to an original U47,

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you'd probably be sniffing around Microtech-Gefell, I

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would have thought.

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Yeah.

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Or even, honestly, the companies like Peluso's and

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those companies, and Stam, I think, makes pretty

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good recreates of these things.

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The hardest thing with the U47 is the

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Mylar capsule, I think, and then sometimes the

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tubes.

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Like, you can still get EF86 tubes, but

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I know that with some of the C12s

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and the NuVista tubes, some of those tubes...

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And the U47 had a metal tube, wasn't

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it?

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Wasn't that the thing about...

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But some of the tubes you can't get

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anymore, so they're all being sometimes built off

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of, here's the next closest tube, it's sort

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of like that other one, but somehow better,

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cleaner, whatever, but not necessarily the same.

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Yeah, I thought the U47 had the E86.

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The 67 has the EF86.

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Okay, because I know my Microtech has the

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EF86.

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Yes, and you can still get those, I

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believe.

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The 47 uses a what?

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I think it's the metal tube.

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There's something about a metal tube?

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One of the mics use a metal tube?

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Well, yeah, that's a big deal.

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Apparently the V14...

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VF14, that's the one.

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VF14, too.

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VF14.

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That's the one that has to be replaced

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authentically to capture the sound.

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I'm reading a thread here from Gearspace from

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last year, and that's the big Hubble balloon.

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An original VF14 tube, not the mic, just

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the tube, can go for upwards of $2

282
00:08:06,860 --> 00:08:07,340
,000.

283
00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:08,260
Oh, God.

284
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,220
Okay, I'm going to keep my eyes open

285
00:08:12,220 --> 00:08:13,820
at some junk shop where there's a box

286
00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:15,440
of tubes.

287
00:08:15,820 --> 00:08:19,640
Like some piece of crap other product used

288
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,580
VF14 tubes that no one knew about for

289
00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:23,780
the longest time, like some kid's toy, and

290
00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:24,180
like, oh.

291
00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:29,720
Well, that rumor of a U847 reissue surfaced

292
00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,080
from, again, this is from a Gearspace thread.

293
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,539
Somebody had found a screenshot of them promoting

294
00:08:35,539 --> 00:08:39,240
their audio interface that they sell, that pretty

295
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:40,900
bougie, that's something 48.

296
00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:44,520
Yeah, that's actually from Merging Technologies, by the

297
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:44,760
way.

298
00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:45,460
Yeah.

299
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:46,000
Yeah.

300
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:47,240
They just hot-rodded it a little bit.

301
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:47,920
They just took it.

302
00:08:47,980 --> 00:08:48,640
They just bought them.

303
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,200
They just put their logo on it and

304
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:52,060
went, continue.

305
00:08:52,540 --> 00:08:55,500
Yeah, and in the picture behind that product,

306
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,400
there's a picture of a U47 in the

307
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,200
background, in a very blurred background photo, and

308
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,780
people are looking at it, they're analyzing the

309
00:09:04,780 --> 00:09:07,200
picture of it and saying, hmm, that might

310
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:08,020
be a reissue.

311
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,100
I think it's a redhead.

312
00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:11,080
Is that where this comes from?

313
00:09:11,140 --> 00:09:12,740
Because I'm trying to remember where I read

314
00:09:12,740 --> 00:09:13,560
it, and I was like, they are.

315
00:09:14,500 --> 00:09:16,260
I mean, I haven't seen any other thread

316
00:09:16,260 --> 00:09:16,720
about it.

317
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:17,980
That seems to be the place that I've

318
00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:18,080
seen it.

319
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,100
I'm full of misinformation, and I'm running for

320
00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:21,200
president.

321
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:22,380
I mean, this is how the Internet works,

322
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:22,660
right?

323
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,620
We just scrape along things as we go,

324
00:09:24,780 --> 00:09:26,320
and things stick in our brains, and we

325
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,020
remember it a certain way, and, you know,

326
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:30,880
that's why we're here, trying to figure out

327
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:31,940
what's the real story.

328
00:09:32,220 --> 00:09:32,320
Yeah.

329
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,620
The investigative thou shalt learn from the wise

330
00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:38,160
tongues.

331
00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:39,660
I take it all back.

332
00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:42,060
Robbo, you can delete this whole podcast now.

333
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:45,780
And that should be our out.

334
00:09:45,820 --> 00:09:47,220
It always just spurs good conversation.

335
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:48,620
That's all I care about.

336
00:09:48,620 --> 00:09:53,100
Well, the other big news is Native Instruments.

337
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:53,740
Native Instruments.

338
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:54,240
Yes.

339
00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:54,680
Yeah.

340
00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,100
They're in the preliminary, it says here, preliminary

341
00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:04,880
insolvency proceedings, and it says, at the time

342
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,500
of writing, it's unclear what any of this

343
00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:08,620
will mean for Native Instruments customers, products, or

344
00:10:08,620 --> 00:10:09,020
staff.

345
00:10:09,380 --> 00:10:10,980
But when you think about, as we were

346
00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:12,540
saying before this, I mean, you know, there's

347
00:10:12,540 --> 00:10:16,500
iZotope, Plugin Alliance, Brainworks, all that stuff that's

348
00:10:16,500 --> 00:10:16,940
in there.

349
00:10:16,940 --> 00:10:17,460
Yeah.

350
00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:18,860
It's like, I mean, here you go.

351
00:10:19,220 --> 00:10:21,360
You know, everyone's like worried about subscriptions versus

352
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:22,300
buyouts.

353
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,040
I used to subscribe to Plugin Alliance.

354
00:10:25,420 --> 00:10:26,700
One year, I'm like, screw it.

355
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,120
I'll buy it all.

356
00:10:28,820 --> 00:10:29,300
Perpetual.

357
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,760
Was that a good investment or a poor

358
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:31,860
investment?

359
00:10:31,860 --> 00:10:33,540
I don't know, because it's a great investment,

360
00:10:33,660 --> 00:10:35,660
probably, unless they go out of business, and

361
00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:39,460
then you chose poorly, because that buyout was

362
00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:42,100
many, many years worth of subscriptions.

363
00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:48,460
So, there is some true value in subscriptions,

364
00:10:48,740 --> 00:10:50,720
and that it's the direct, you know, all

365
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,840
these companies, like, why did they do this?

366
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,060
Because they over leveraged themselves, and they basically

367
00:10:55,060 --> 00:10:56,860
made a bunch of money and spent it,

368
00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,800
and went, oops, and if they do a

369
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,880
see you later, hopefully they reorganize and don't

370
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:02,500
do a see you later.

371
00:11:02,540 --> 00:11:03,640
But if they do a see you later,

372
00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:06,040
that's a real tragedy for the consumer.

373
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:07,600
But you think about, I mean, some of

374
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,000
those Native Instruments plugins, like their synths, like

375
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,040
Kontakt, and all those sort of things, they're

376
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,420
so widely used in music these days.

377
00:11:15,740 --> 00:11:19,000
If they go out of business, you know,

378
00:11:19,100 --> 00:11:21,040
I mean, I know there's alternatives, but some

379
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,020
of that stuff's so wired in these days,

380
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,460
you know, that a lot of, so many

381
00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:25,280
people are using.

382
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,320
It'll get bought, I'm sure.

383
00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:28,640
Well, that's the thing.

384
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,540
Even if you have to repurchase, will it

385
00:11:31,540 --> 00:11:33,640
get bought and integrated in such a way

386
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,120
that the tech is like now?

387
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,240
Well, Native Instruments already bought iZotope.

388
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,980
It's still like an annoying time period where

389
00:11:41,980 --> 00:11:43,280
you have to log in and go, no,

390
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,240
do you have a Native Instruments login?

391
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:46,540
Fuck, I hate that.

392
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,000
You know, so they're already going through that

393
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:49,820
process now.

394
00:11:50,060 --> 00:11:51,780
And actually, one thing that was really frustrating

395
00:11:51,780 --> 00:11:56,400
is, I bought a Native Instruments keyboard used,

396
00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:58,780
and thank God I was able to get

397
00:11:58,780 --> 00:12:01,820
this from the person, but I couldn't use

398
00:12:01,820 --> 00:12:03,240
the keyboard without a login.

399
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,140
It's like, this is like a freaking piece

400
00:12:05,140 --> 00:12:05,420
of hardware.

401
00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:06,400
It's a piece of hardware.

402
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:06,880
That's right.

403
00:12:06,980 --> 00:12:08,000
Why do I need a fucking login?

404
00:12:08,060 --> 00:12:09,880
Yeah, and it's like the drivers were all

405
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,160
bound up with some login thing.

406
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:13,940
And I was like, ooh.

407
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:14,580
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

408
00:12:15,180 --> 00:12:19,240
See, I use Kontakt for my radio imaging,

409
00:12:19,460 --> 00:12:21,620
for, you know, for beds and drones and

410
00:12:21,620 --> 00:12:22,260
stuff like that.

411
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:23,160
Yeah, it's great for percussion stuff.

412
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:24,260
Yeah, and all that sort of stuff.

413
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,740
And it's like, yeah, I haven't bought it

414
00:12:26,740 --> 00:12:28,300
out, but I have bought out other stuff

415
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:30,900
that I use a lot from them.

416
00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:33,000
And think about Kontakt.

417
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,620
Kontakt is a whole market onto a market.

418
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,840
People sell Kontakt instruments, you know, Kontakt is

419
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,420
a player that I could go make a

420
00:12:42,420 --> 00:12:44,020
Kontakt instrument and sell it.

421
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:45,640
There's a whole marketplace.

422
00:12:46,180 --> 00:12:46,820
It's a whole marketplace.

423
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,200
If it goes belly up completely, it's really

424
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,420
disruptive, because they are.

425
00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:51,700
I agree.

426
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:52,840
They are massive.

427
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,040
This article, musictech.com, Williams, who is Nick

428
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:02,680
Williams, CEO of Native, says that the company

429
00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:06,500
is working diligently and responsibly to secure a

430
00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:10,200
healthy, financial, sustainable future for Native Instruments.

431
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,100
And he adds that the Native Instruments brands

432
00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:14,240
are also continuing to develop and launch new

433
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,060
products and features.

434
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,820
Our NKS partnerships team continues to process contact

435
00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:23,780
player licenses and NKS partner submissions.

436
00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:26,300
I kind of don't think it's a sign

437
00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:27,820
of the times, I mean, especially for a

438
00:13:27,820 --> 00:13:28,480
company like that.

439
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:30,200
I mean, I think a sign of the

440
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:31,680
times for a company like that should be

441
00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:33,520
growth at the moment, given that, you know,

442
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,820
everybody is, you know, building a home studio.

443
00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:39,140
I mean, I was doing a voiceover demo

444
00:13:39,140 --> 00:13:41,680
with a guy yesterday, and he's in a,

445
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,000
AP would know this, he's in a Pink

446
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,920
Floyd cover band that tours the country, like

447
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:47,000
they're not just a little group.

448
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,860
And, you know, and he's making stuff, you

449
00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:52,360
know, he's making music and putting it up

450
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:52,900
on Spotify.

451
00:13:53,380 --> 00:13:54,640
And all that sort of stuff.

452
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:58,380
I don't know that right now, just in

453
00:13:58,380 --> 00:14:00,560
many markets, not just music, that anything is

454
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:02,260
necessarily expanding.

455
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,080
I mean, I just watched the Grammys and

456
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,160
maybe this is just, you know, reading tea

457
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,020
leaves or speculation, but it definitely seemed like

458
00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:12,160
there's an emphasis on live performance of the

459
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:12,940
Grammys this year.

460
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,560
A lot of the hip hop or even

461
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:19,980
R&B or other artists all went on

462
00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:22,120
stage and performed, played instruments.

463
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:23,300
A lot of them did.

464
00:14:23,740 --> 00:14:26,980
I mean, like even Justin Bieber, his whole

465
00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:29,020
shtick was he walked out on stage and

466
00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:30,440
did a looping performance.

467
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:30,900
Oh, okay.

468
00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:33,400
Walked out with a solo electric guitar.

469
00:14:33,660 --> 00:14:33,880
Yeah, yeah.

470
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,800
Did a kind of an Ed Sheeran, exactly,

471
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:40,080
you know, and song bored me to death.

472
00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:42,240
Let's be honest.

473
00:14:42,940 --> 00:14:44,360
Just so boring.

474
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,400
But, you know, he did it, he did

475
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:46,560
it.

476
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,400
It's bold, it's, you know, whatever.

477
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:51,040
But, you know, it did show that there

478
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,680
was so many artists out there going, here's

479
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,240
the music, here's the instruments, here's real performance.

480
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,840
I think there is a certain AI backlash

481
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,160
that that is all part of.

482
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:01,520
I think it's an AI backlash.

483
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,020
It is, absolutely.

484
00:15:02,180 --> 00:15:03,720
It's heading back that way big time.

485
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,100
But it's funny though, because the, look, I'm

486
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:07,360
going to sound old saying this, but the

487
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:08,260
music sucks.

488
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,340
I mean, it really does.

489
00:15:09,420 --> 00:15:10,760
I mean, there was a, I was listening

490
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,420
to a stationary image the other day and

491
00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:14,400
there was this whole hype about, you know,

492
00:15:14,860 --> 00:15:16,360
oh, sht, what's his name?

493
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:17,440
The guy from One Direction.

494
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:18,600
Harry Styles.

495
00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:20,920
Harry Styles has got a new record out

496
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,380
and yeah, it's going to be amazing and

497
00:15:22,380 --> 00:15:22,780
blah, blah, blah.

498
00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:24,060
And I tuned in and it was like,

499
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,600
it was snooze fest.

500
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,980
Honestly, it was like, oh.

501
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:28,800
Yeah.

502
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,280
The taste of young musicians, you know, young

503
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,640
listeners, which is who drives the industry, right?

504
00:15:33,820 --> 00:15:34,440
Gen Z, whatever.

505
00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:36,540
It's pretty low key, dude.

506
00:15:36,660 --> 00:15:37,920
They don't like a lot of it.

507
00:15:37,940 --> 00:15:39,080
They don't want to be too excited.

508
00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:40,960
You know, they just want to, they just

509
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:41,880
want to like mellow out.

510
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:43,040
Yeah.

511
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,040
But you know, a 21 year old with

512
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,900
a whole bunch of people the same age,

513
00:15:49,180 --> 00:15:51,120
because she comes in and she'll go, oh,

514
00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:54,060
you know, I remember playing, I just play

515
00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:54,520
stuff to her.

516
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:55,320
She goes, oh, what's that?

517
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:56,840
The Cocteau Twins.

518
00:15:57,220 --> 00:15:57,920
I love that.

519
00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:59,600
They love the old stuff.

520
00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:00,000
Yes.

521
00:16:00,340 --> 00:16:00,920
They do.

522
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,280
And you sort of sit there and you

523
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:02,460
go.

524
00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:03,160
Yes.

525
00:16:03,260 --> 00:16:03,560
Okay.

526
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,020
So when this was new, that was probably

527
00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:08,100
40 odd years ago.

528
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,460
So you'd have to be in your sixties.

529
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:10,920
Right.

530
00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:11,180
Right.

531
00:16:11,620 --> 00:16:13,060
So, you know, my age.

532
00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:16,820
And there's all these like 20 somethings all

533
00:16:16,820 --> 00:16:19,680
getting into eighties stuff because, and we were

534
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:20,760
talking about it in the car, we just

535
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:21,600
play different things.

536
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,460
And even a band called The Last Dinner

537
00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:28,440
Party, which is an all girl band that

538
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:28,900
she's into.

539
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:30,500
And she goes, oh, do you want to

540
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:30,880
hear this?

541
00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:32,060
We're in the car driving somewhere.

542
00:16:32,140 --> 00:16:32,700
It's like, yeah, yeah.

543
00:16:34,060 --> 00:16:36,400
So we put it on, we're listening, and

544
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,140
I'm sort of like getting all these kind

545
00:16:39,140 --> 00:16:41,320
of things that are making me think, what

546
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,440
the hell have these girls been listening to?

547
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:48,480
Is it their granddad that's into, you know,

548
00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:48,920
stuff?

549
00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:51,460
Because, and of course she went to see

550
00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:52,580
the gig, which I didn't realize, and I

551
00:16:52,580 --> 00:16:54,460
probably bored you with this story before, but

552
00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:56,380
I said to her, that's really weird.

553
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,100
That has a kind of a Sparks vibe

554
00:16:58,100 --> 00:16:59,260
to it from the seventies.

555
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,080
And she goes, yeah, yeah.

556
00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:02,300
Well, they do a cover of This Town

557
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:03,460
Ain't Big Enough for the both of us,

558
00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:06,579
which she videoed at the concert.

559
00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:08,099
And I remember her coming home and I'd

560
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:08,800
forgotten all about it.

561
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,720
And she said, I was the only person

562
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,000
that when it started, I went, oh my

563
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,619
God, This Town Ain't Big Enough for the

564
00:17:13,619 --> 00:17:14,000
both of us.

565
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:14,880
And they were going, how do you know

566
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:15,380
this song?

567
00:17:15,859 --> 00:17:16,819
We've never heard it before.

568
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,520
It's because my dad played it to me.

569
00:17:20,619 --> 00:17:22,140
But you know what makes me laugh, though,

570
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:23,520
is the number one song here in Australia

571
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,140
at the moment is a song by a

572
00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:25,240
politician.

573
00:17:25,859 --> 00:17:26,180
Oh.

574
00:17:27,820 --> 00:17:30,560
There's a politician called Pauline Hanson, and she's

575
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:31,100
done this song.

576
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,600
It's about anti-wokeness.

577
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:33,740
Oh, Jesus.

578
00:17:34,420 --> 00:17:37,140
It's number one, like by a fucking country

579
00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:37,560
mile.

580
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:38,360
It's hilarious.

581
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:40,240
I got a really interesting one here the

582
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:40,580
other day.

583
00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:41,160
This is great.

584
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,080
Abraham Lincoln said watching Melania was the worst

585
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:45,980
experience he's ever had in a theater.

586
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:49,040
That was classic.

587
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:54,560
So somebody in Culver City right down the

588
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,680
street when they put up her billboard, they

589
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,800
spray painted an American flag underneath her chair,

590
00:17:59,940 --> 00:18:01,920
because she's sitting in a chair, and made

591
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:02,700
it on fire.

592
00:18:02,940 --> 00:18:04,820
So it looked like she was sitting over

593
00:18:04,820 --> 00:18:05,700
a burning flag.

594
00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:07,320
And that one stayed up for a few

595
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,000
days until everybody on Earth photographed it.

596
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:11,200
I think it's funny.

597
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,180
Was it the UK that they sold one

598
00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:13,400
ticket?

599
00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:14,220
One ticket, yeah.

600
00:18:14,620 --> 00:18:15,500
Literally one ticket.

601
00:18:17,740 --> 00:18:18,980
Well, I was going to go back to

602
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:23,360
what kids like in music.

603
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,120
The song that was the new breakout artist

604
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:27,200
of the year, you know how it goes.

605
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,280
Best new artist at the Grammys.

606
00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:31,860
They've been in the business for 15 years.

607
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,220
That's how the shit works.

608
00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:38,160
Her song, it's called Messy.

609
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:40,100
Like the soccer player?

610
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,480
No, like Messy.

611
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:43,360
I'm Messy.

612
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:44,420
I freaking smoke.

613
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:45,040
I cry.

614
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:45,920
I'm not, you know, whatever.

615
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,160
And I listened to it.

616
00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:49,120
I was like, what is it about the

617
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:49,780
vibe of the song?

618
00:18:49,860 --> 00:18:54,080
It is literally the rhythm and chord progression

619
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,780
from Dreams by Fleetwood Mac.

620
00:18:57,180 --> 00:18:57,560
Classic.

621
00:18:57,860 --> 00:18:59,580
Is that a lawsuit coming up?

622
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,020
No, I mean, it's not exactly, exactly the

623
00:19:03,020 --> 00:19:03,280
same.

624
00:19:03,380 --> 00:19:05,040
It might be a different chord and it's

625
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:05,500
slower.

626
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,460
But it really is.

627
00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:09,820
You know how simple that song is, right?

628
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,300
It's literally a two-note progression.

629
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:14,460
It's what is it?

630
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:16,360
E, F, E, F, whatever it is.

631
00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:17,960
I don't remember what the chords are.

632
00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:19,880
Yeah, this song is the same.

633
00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:22,260
It's the same vibe.

634
00:19:22,660 --> 00:19:25,080
But that's why they love it, because it

635
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,200
captures that vibe of that movie song, or

636
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:28,900
the song, Dreams.

637
00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:32,840
And Dreams went freaking massive when that guy

638
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,040
posted a video of him drinking ocean spray,

639
00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:39,940
cranberry juice while skateboarding.

640
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,220
And he used that song, Dreams, on the

641
00:19:43,220 --> 00:19:43,620
video.

642
00:19:43,860 --> 00:19:47,480
And that made that song go through the

643
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:48,200
freaking roof.

644
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,260
So, so much so that Mick had a

645
00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:56,260
sit-down interview over Zoom with the guy.

646
00:19:56,260 --> 00:19:58,260
This was during the pandemic, by the way.

647
00:19:58,460 --> 00:20:00,060
Went to the guy and just said, you

648
00:20:00,060 --> 00:20:01,380
know, thanks a lot.

649
00:20:01,820 --> 00:20:03,100
I just bought another house.

650
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:04,540
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

651
00:20:05,020 --> 00:20:08,180
I think he sent the fellow something, too.

652
00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:10,940
Like sent him some cash or something.

653
00:20:11,340 --> 00:20:15,360
Well, knowing Mick Fleetwood, I met him once.

654
00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:18,020
He came into work and interviewed him.

655
00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:19,060
He came in with a guy called Ken

656
00:20:19,060 --> 00:20:21,300
Gradney, who was the bass player, I think,

657
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:22,080
from Little Feet.

658
00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:24,920
Anyway, that's a sidetrack.

659
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,480
So he wanted in, and he was carrying

660
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:28,060
a Walkman.

661
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:30,560
And I said, what are you doing with

662
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:30,880
the Walkman?

663
00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:32,080
He goes, I record everything.

664
00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:34,960
Every composition, every interview, everything.

665
00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:36,900
I said, what do you do with the

666
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:37,280
tapes?

667
00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:38,900
He goes, when I go home, I listen

668
00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:39,340
to them.

669
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,120
He's a unique fellow.

670
00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:43,260
I mean, that band is iconic.

671
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:43,700
Yeah.

672
00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:49,920
I mean, my nephew was setting up his

673
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,400
dad's record player, which he was trying to

674
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,380
understand the difference between a component system and

675
00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:55,820
a system that just has a bunch of

676
00:20:55,820 --> 00:20:57,440
things that looks like components with a line

677
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:57,980
through it.

678
00:20:58,120 --> 00:20:59,800
And I was trying to explain, like, there's

679
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,060
no outputs to this thing.

680
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,680
And actually, there's only one input.

681
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,500
But this is how crazy it's gotten.

682
00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:07,840
They're all in a battle to play old

683
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:08,880
shit, right?

684
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,920
So it's gone back to 8-tracks.

685
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,060
His friends are playing 8-tracks.

686
00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:15,300
Are you kidding me?

687
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:16,100
I'm not kidding.

688
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:16,600
How old?

689
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,040
He's 15, 14.

690
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,540
He's just getting his driver's license.

691
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,220
So you're talking about 8-track cartridges?

692
00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:24,120
Cartridges, yeah.

693
00:21:24,220 --> 00:21:26,340
Basically, you're quarter-inch, like, oh, I'm sorry,

694
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:27,820
we broke your song in the middle, and

695
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:30,080
here's the relay on it.

696
00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:32,020
Like, yes.

697
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,200
I had no idea that was a thing.

698
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:35,960
And he's got a cassette of Fleetwood Mac.

699
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,740
They went right through cassette, and then they

700
00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:38,400
moved to 8-track?

701
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,820
Well, he's got a record player that plays

702
00:21:40,820 --> 00:21:42,280
records and cassettes.

703
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,880
And I was talking about audio quality, and

704
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,740
I was like, dude, none of this shit

705
00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:48,820
sounds better than a CD, even a record.

706
00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:51,460
You might think it does, but only a

707
00:21:51,460 --> 00:21:53,840
record in the most optimal situations when it's

708
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,060
brand new on a really great player sounds

709
00:21:56,060 --> 00:21:56,980
better than a CD.

710
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,120
Like, a CD just, it's 96 decibels of

711
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:00,460
range.

712
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:01,960
I'm fighting words, dude.

713
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:03,840
You're pissing me off here.

714
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,280
You know, like, but come on.

715
00:22:07,460 --> 00:22:08,740
Like, just the R-I-A-A curve

716
00:22:08,740 --> 00:22:11,480
that's necessary just to correct the record in

717
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:12,800
the first place from having too much bass

718
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:13,200
on it.

719
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:15,440
Yeah, yeah.

720
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:16,020
Come on.

721
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,940
It all comes down to how it feels,

722
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:20,840
makes you feel, right?

723
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,120
It's the experience of playing.

724
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,560
It's having the liner notes, it's putting the

725
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,620
record on there, it's physically interacting with the

726
00:22:26,620 --> 00:22:26,960
media.

727
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,780
It's that that makes them happy to listen

728
00:22:30,780 --> 00:22:30,980
to the music.

729
00:22:30,980 --> 00:22:31,480
It's graphics.

730
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,340
The funny thing is, though, when you think

731
00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:35,020
about the, there are two things.

732
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:36,180
One was audio, one was video.

733
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,480
So you had cassette, and you had cartridge.

734
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,840
Cartridge, far superior to a cassette.

735
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:42,280
Yes.

736
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:43,140
Cassette wins.

737
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:45,040
And then you had VHS.

738
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,320
Because convenience always wins.

739
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:49,040
And free licensing, always.

740
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,080
Yes, exactly.

741
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,820
I mean, MP3 beats CD.

742
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,180
If you think about it, somewhere between, I'll

743
00:22:56,180 --> 00:22:58,760
give it maybe the LP and the CD

744
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,600
is the real peak of audio distribution to

745
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:04,100
the consumer.

746
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,280
If you say that DSD and super audio,

747
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,200
super audio CD and audio DVDs failed, which

748
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,340
are technically higher quality, but those never really

749
00:23:13,340 --> 00:23:13,780
took off.

750
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,860
Who's listening to FLAC files?

751
00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:17,600
All of that.

752
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,460
Really, the peak delivery was record and CD.

753
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:23,600
And it just goes downhill from there.

754
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,300
Remember video discs?

755
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:25,600
Do you remember video discs?

756
00:23:25,740 --> 00:23:25,860
Yes.

757
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:26,360
Do you remember that?

758
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:26,900
I do.

759
00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:29,600
MP3 wasn't free originally, was it?

760
00:23:29,660 --> 00:23:33,140
You had to buy a license from a

761
00:23:33,140 --> 00:23:34,060
certain company?

762
00:23:34,220 --> 00:23:35,440
Technically, still do.

763
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,040
But effectively, for the consumer, it was free.

764
00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:41,680
And those easy, like, you know, I mean,

765
00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:45,400
record companies went apeshit when the deck-to

766
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,500
-deck cassettes came out.

767
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:49,300
And just the record players that could dub

768
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:52,460
to a cassette, they wanted royalties for every

769
00:23:52,460 --> 00:23:53,860
blank cassette sold.

770
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:54,800
They went crazy.

771
00:23:55,660 --> 00:23:56,540
They did.

772
00:23:57,140 --> 00:23:58,360
Yeah, I kind of remember that.

773
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,060
And then they went crazy when the DAT

774
00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:01,480
came out.

775
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:05,100
The thing, why do we have 44.1

776
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:05,660
and 48?

777
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:07,900
So to make it harder to make the

778
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:08,780
digital transfer.

779
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:12,420
They made the CD a specifically weirdo sample

780
00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:14,200
rate so that they thought that it couldn't

781
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,700
be duplicated easily.

782
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,840
And that's when DAT machines first came out.

783
00:24:19,060 --> 00:24:21,300
The ones that we could record 44.1

784
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:22,680
were gray market machines.

785
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,840
And they were more expensive, the ones that

786
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:25,420
did 48.

787
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:26,500
Oh, that's right.

788
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,500
And to this day, we have 44.1.

789
00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:31,540
44.1 is the standard, though, yeah.

790
00:24:31,740 --> 00:24:34,280
Well, for music, not for post, right?

791
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,940
And it was just a way to throw

792
00:24:36,940 --> 00:24:39,300
a wrench in the ability to copy.

793
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,180
And then they had SCUMMS or whatever it

794
00:24:42,180 --> 00:24:44,060
was called, Serial Copy Management System.

795
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:45,060
CMS, yeah.

796
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:48,460
Everyone found a way to get around SCUMMS.

797
00:24:48,460 --> 00:24:49,620
Was that the one on the CDs that

798
00:24:49,620 --> 00:24:50,180
they tried with?

799
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:50,500
Is that it?

800
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:51,880
Well, it was on any digital.

801
00:24:51,980 --> 00:24:54,260
Basically, it was Copybit was another name for

802
00:24:54,260 --> 00:24:54,400
it.

803
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,360
You could make one copy, and then the

804
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:00,060
second generation would basically not allow itself to

805
00:25:00,060 --> 00:25:00,540
be copied.

806
00:25:01,220 --> 00:25:03,380
But then, I forget, but there was just

807
00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:05,000
little pass-through converters you could get that

808
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,220
would strip SCMS or whatever it was called

809
00:25:07,220 --> 00:25:09,020
off of the digital stream.

810
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,180
They could never win.

811
00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:12,100
And then it all ends with Napster.

812
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,680
And from Napster on, the whole music business

813
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,580
is never the same.

814
00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:19,160
I saw a post the other day, actually.

815
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,100
What was the first thing that you ever

816
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:23,560
downloaded from LimeWire?

817
00:25:23,940 --> 00:25:26,220
And for me, it was a cracked copy

818
00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:27,480
of Cool Edit Pro.

819
00:25:29,420 --> 00:25:31,440
It was a whole bunch of albums, I

820
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:31,920
got to admit.

821
00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:34,040
How do you remember that?

822
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:34,980
How do you remember that?

823
00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:38,020
Because I remember going, wow, look at that.

824
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:38,940
Yeah, that's cool.

825
00:25:39,380 --> 00:25:40,140
How do I get that?

826
00:25:40,820 --> 00:25:43,060
Someone said, oh, there's this thing called LimeWire,

827
00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:44,280
so you got to get a layer and

828
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:44,920
you can do it.

829
00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:46,040
Whatever you're looking for.

830
00:25:46,260 --> 00:25:48,080
Like, I want the Fleetwood Mac album.

831
00:25:48,580 --> 00:25:49,820
There would be like 10 links.

832
00:25:50,180 --> 00:25:51,980
And this is why Native Instruments is going

833
00:25:51,980 --> 00:25:52,320
in here.

834
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:53,740
Pirate Bay.

835
00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:54,940
Pirate Bay was the other one.

836
00:25:54,980 --> 00:25:55,620
Do you remember that?

837
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,560
They got sued and went away.

838
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,820
But it's a cat and mouse game.

839
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:01,700
There's always another one.

840
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:02,300
Yeah.

841
00:26:02,660 --> 00:26:04,420
I did realize, though, once I sort of

842
00:26:04,420 --> 00:26:06,720
got to a certain point that it was

843
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,360
just easier to pay for the stuff than

844
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:09,420
download cracked stuff.

845
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,080
Because it was never really very reliable.

846
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:14,220
It also became like a hoarding thing.

847
00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:17,940
I remember when I was 20 and, you

848
00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:19,240
know, plugins were first out.

849
00:26:19,340 --> 00:26:20,280
And then you're just like, I need them

850
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:20,760
all.

851
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,320
And back then, there were so few plugins,

852
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,380
you literally could have them all.

853
00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:24,760
Have them all.

854
00:26:26,620 --> 00:26:27,500
I know.

855
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,760
But even then, you couldn't use them all.

856
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,560
Hoarding stuff almost put me out of school.

857
00:26:32,740 --> 00:26:34,260
I almost dropped out of college because I

858
00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:37,840
was up nights downloading and saving to floppy

859
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,820
disk, you know, as many apps and software

860
00:26:40,820 --> 00:26:41,940
and things like that.

861
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,060
I was hoarding like crazy.

862
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,060
For no reason.

863
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:45,920
And crazy things.

864
00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:47,680
I mean, George, do you remember Key Disk

865
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,260
Terminator?

866
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:50,100
Yeah, maybe.

867
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:53,100
The keys used to be on floppy disks.

868
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,380
And you'd put the floppy disk in, and

869
00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:56,740
it would move the key from the floppy

870
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:58,120
disk to your computer.

871
00:26:58,260 --> 00:26:59,940
And then someone figured out when CD burning

872
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:01,600
came out that you could make an image

873
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,200
and then close the image and duplicate the

874
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,680
image and then reopen the image on another

875
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,340
computer, and the license carried over.

876
00:27:08,540 --> 00:27:08,820
I do remember that now.

877
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:10,380
Yeah, I do remember that now.

878
00:27:10,380 --> 00:27:12,220
It was like all these crazy ways.

879
00:27:12,340 --> 00:27:14,140
Everyone was like finding ways around it.

880
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,860
That's why iLock became a thing.

881
00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:17,400
Well, that was iLock.

882
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,120
That was Pace.

883
00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:21,560
Pace originally started with floppy disk keys.

884
00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:24,440
It was amazing to me that people spent

885
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,840
hours and hours and hours trying to get

886
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,520
crack copies of stuff, whereas they actually went

887
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,640
and got a job and earned money for

888
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:32,320
those amount of hours.

889
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:33,620
They could go and buy the real thing.

890
00:27:33,620 --> 00:27:36,520
The software used to be tremendously more expensive,

891
00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:36,880
too.

892
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,000
Yeah, that's the thing.

893
00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:42,680
The $30 plugins were not…

894
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,700
Most plugins for a long time were $300,

895
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,340
$400, $500, $800 all the time.

896
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:50,280
More than that, yeah.

897
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:50,900
Absolutely.

898
00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:55,360
A Sonic Solutions workstation back then with the

899
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:56,180
card was what?

900
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:57,540
$60,000, $80,000?

901
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:58,600
Yeah, with the card it was even more,

902
00:27:58,700 --> 00:27:58,940
right.

903
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,160
And these were in pricing those days, too.

904
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,860
Back when gas was $1.50. Nineties.

905
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:06,960
I remember buying…

906
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,860
When I first got Pro Tools, I needed

907
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:10,980
to get the DV Toolkit so I could

908
00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:11,580
do video.

909
00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:12,980
Right, everything was separate.

910
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:14,780
I actually had to go…

911
00:28:14,780 --> 00:28:15,900
Because you couldn't download it.

912
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,280
I actually had to go to the local

913
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,500
music store and buy it.

914
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,660
And physically buy it over the counter.

915
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,340
Pro Tools, you wanted to import an EDL.

916
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,500
Then you needed…

917
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:25,800
I forgot the name of it, but there

918
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:26,480
was a separate…

919
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:26,580
DV Toolkit.

920
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:27,640
That was the thing.

921
00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:28,820
It was all on DV Toolkit.

922
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:30,540
Burn a CD was masterless CD.

923
00:28:30,540 --> 00:28:32,740
Everything was a separate feature.

924
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,220
You wanted machine control.

925
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:35,420
That was a separate license.

926
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:36,560
Oh, that was another one.

927
00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:37,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

928
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:37,860
That's right.

929
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,760
And that was another one I had to

930
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:40,020
buy.

931
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,620
And that was like $400 or something.

932
00:28:42,860 --> 00:28:44,740
SP Beta in the old studio that I

933
00:28:44,740 --> 00:28:46,720
used to have and used to sync to

934
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:47,140
Pro Tools.

935
00:28:47,260 --> 00:28:48,980
You couldn't do post-production without that thing.

936
00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:50,760
No, absolutely not.

937
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,340
Music has been democratized.

938
00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:54,720
It has been.

939
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,380
I'd say.

940
00:28:55,860 --> 00:28:56,640
Yeah, absolutely.

941
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:57,180
Who was?

942
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,340
Well, that was fun.

943
00:28:59,340 --> 00:28:59,820
Is it over?