Vanguard Microphones: Behind the Sound with Derek Bargaehr - Part 1

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And welcome to another pro audio suite.

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Thanks to try booth.

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Don't forget the code to try pip 200.

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That will get you $200 of your try booth
and Austrian

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audio making passion heard

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roll intro.

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I might not.

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Now I might just leave you hanging there.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

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Let's go.

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Welcome. Hi. Hi. Hi.

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Hello, everyone.

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Audience. Audio.

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These guys are professional and motivated.

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Please text the real stars.

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George with a founder of Source elements,
Robert Marshall, international audio

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engineer Robin Roberts.

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And global voice Andrew Peters.

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Thanks to tribal Austrian audio, lighting,
passionate elements,

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George the tech wisdom and robo and APIs
international demos.

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Find out more about us.

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Check the Pro Audio Sweetcorn.

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Line up later. Here we go. Now. Good. Me?

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You. Now.

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Yeah, now.

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But before we get into the microphones,
just give us a bit of background.

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How did you, start
producing your own product?

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Oh, I'll keep it as short as possible.

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Like most people in the music industry,
I think I fell, bass backwards into it

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and have just been here ever since,
you know, loved music all my life

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was, you know, joined a band in junior
high with my friends, as one does.

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But also, I've been a tinkerer
all my life, taking apart everything

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electronic in the house,
much to the chagrin of my parents.

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Because not always did
I know how to put it back together.

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That's how you practice, right?

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So, those two things kind of joined
when I was in the band instead of,

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you know, like,
getting better at my instrument.

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The guitarist had these pedals
that did cool things, and I was like, oh,

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I wish I could do that with my bass.

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So, there weren't a lot of bass
pedals back then.

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So I ended up working, with,
just kind of learning

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how to modify guitar pedals for bass
frequencies.

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And then I went to school for music,
and I was like, oh, everybody here is

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better at this than I am.

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But I got into engineering.

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And then while I was doing that,
I was fixing people's gear

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and upgrading their gear and modifying
their guitars and things of that nature.

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And had to get an internship to get out

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of, school with a degree and didn't
want to scrub toilets in a studio.

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So I. Did that. Yeah.

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I mean, so did a lot of people in my,
in my graduating class,

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and I'm like, boy, I'm
glad I didn't have to be the coffee go.

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First thing you do is realize
you shouldn't be doing that event.

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Mean earlier you do that to better.

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I think that's illegal now.

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But back in the 90s,
that was all the rage.

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Just to make make all the.

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Yeah, they would you go to college
to clean the toilet?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly. So.

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And let me pee all over it first
before you go.

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It's all just for a while. Like, yeah.

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It was on a great day.

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Like, I think studios have more disgusting
bathrooms and gas stations.

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Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

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Yeah.
Especially depending on their clientele.

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Yes. You know, but I,

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I, ended up interning at a microphone
company,

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called Avante Electronics
when Kana Font owned it.

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He no longer does.
That's a whole other story.

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And, worked there for 4

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or 5 years as,
I don't know, it was a small company.

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We wore a lot of hats.
I don't think I had a title.

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I just did a lot of stuff. And,

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janitor, you know, chief cook and bottle
washer, all that.

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And so,

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the defecation hit the oscillation
at that particular company.

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And, I had to then make a decision, and
and I was, I was freelancing for a while

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doing studio, upgrades and installs
and fixing people's gear on the side.

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And then Ken called me.

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I was like, hey, I'd still like to start
another mic company.

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Do you want to start it with me?

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And so we started that.

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And can it, you know, obviously
taught me a lot about transducers

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and how, more about the microphone side
of things that I was previously aware of.

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And I've been doing this for 11
or 12 years now and just keep

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enjoying it for some reason, you know,
and, and it's my way to contribute

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to music and voice over
and all these other things.

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Because I wasn't
I was definitely not a great musician.

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I didn't want to put in the 16 hours
a day of wood

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chatting to catch up with my,
you know, my peers in college.

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And I was a good engineer
and I had a good ear, but there were a lot

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of people that did that, you know,
and this just sort of stuck with me.

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It it marries the mechanical
and the physical and the scientific

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with the subjective and the artistic and,
and why do we like the way that things

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sound and, and, you know, it's not
that part is actually kind

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of difficult to quantify.

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And there's argument about it, but,
it marries those two things.

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And that's ever evolving quest of
how do I make a tool

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that makes an artist's job more

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enjoyable and easier
and gives them more creative expression?

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And as long as I'm looking at mics that
way, I'm probably going to keep doing it.

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Yeah.

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Your journey sounds

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well, I shouldn't say,
but I'm thinking, Robert,

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you had a similar kind of journey,
didn't you?

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Really?

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Kind of a a what I was
I had an early experience

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where I was in a band, and I was,

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interning at a studio, in high school.

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And actually, that was by by the time
I was still at that studio

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in college, and the, I forget, I,

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I wasn't kicked out of the band,
but I wasn't in the band anymore.

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And I began getting the distinct feeling
that I was in bands because I had hook ups

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to get people recorded and,

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and, and at some point
the studio owner is just like,

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you know, maybe you're a better producer
than you are the musician part of it.

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Like, maybe that's your thing.

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And kind of got me to kind of embrace
that more instead of trying

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to be the lead guitarist or whatever
I was thinking I would be.

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So yeah, a little bit like.
Did you have long hair? Robert?

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I did in college.

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I thought.

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Wow. Yeah, I can, I can see it,
I can see, yeah, yeah.

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David Lee Roth style was that.

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No I wasn't, it wasn't filled up.

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It was more, more, more hippie like.

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Yeah. I was going to say
you would have been a page boy.

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You didn't look like a yacht rock
kind of dude from the 70s.

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Maybe. Yeah.

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It was just like a yobo.

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I reckon they had just.

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There's just a homeless guy. Yeah.

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Is the guest
allowed to ask a question of guys?

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Is there a reason why Robert is speaking
to us from the great beyond on video?

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Oh. We came back here.

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I want to go there
because I'm in heaven. Yes.

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Okay. Yeah. Is a. Nice.

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It. You don't want to.

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It's better down here or down
where you are. Yeah.

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He said he's he's at his dealers house
and he doesn't want him.

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That's, That makes sense.

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That's all cocaine back there? Yes.

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Oh, yeah.
You're on the side of low. Gotcha.

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I mean, that's what it is.

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Excuse me while I sneeze.

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Yeah.

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Thank God there's no wind in it.

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That was his name in the 80s.

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The cocaine back. That's right.
Yes. That's right.

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Yeah. So.

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So, Derek, tell us,
tell us a bit about your first ever Mike,

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I'm interested to know if you look back
now because I look back at my first demo

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and go, Holy crap,
how did that ever get me a job?

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How did that first Mike turn out?

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You know, it's funny
because Ken was very heavily

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involved in the design process early on
because he designed Mike's advent tone.

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I was very lucky in that,
you know, imagine if you if you go

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if you go to make your first record
and you know, you're your engineer

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and producer, you're at Abbey road
and you're producers, you know, you know,

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or Lenoir and you're
and and your engineers, Steve Generac

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or Al Schmidt, like, it's
you're gonna have a better time. Right?

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So Ken was really good at this,
and and so,

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actually the v 13, that's not the one
I'm speaking into right now.

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I don't have a v 13
in my home office at the moment,

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but it's a two microphone,
a nine pattern, two microphone.

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And it, has been wildly successful.

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Actually, it's it's
consistently our best seller.

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And people love it because it punches way
above its weight class.

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They love it because it's versatile.

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We try to walk this subjective line
between, like,

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some mikes are the best
mic in the world on a particular voice,

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but only on that voice
because they're so heavily, heavily,

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heavily voiced and aggressively voiced,
which is great.

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And then some mics,
like the AKG 414 will work on everything.

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And if you record your entire record
with that, it's

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going to sound like vanilla cake
with mayonnaise frosting.

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So there's like this, there's this line
between like flattery and musicality

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and like a more objective,
like we want to capture or

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capture things as they are
that you have to constantly ride.

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And like the philosophy of different mic
designers will indicate where they ride

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that line. Right?

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So, people really like the V 13
because it rides that line pretty well.

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And quite frankly, you know, studios
today are in a basements and bedrooms

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and garages or, you know, in, in business
parks, they're not their own

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massive built out things
with 60 mics for a vocal locker.

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So the mic that you choose to be
your main vocal mic,

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it has to be affordable enough.

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And then it also has to be versatile
enough

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that you don't need to get eight other
mics that, that, that do something.

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Maybe,
maybe that can be your main vocal mic

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and then you have a couple other ones
as backups and then,

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you know, but it ended up being great
for drum overheads and great on guitar

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amps and great on acoustic guitars and
and great and voice over,

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apparently because Scott Rummel
was using one for a long time.

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So B13 is if I'm going to guess I'm

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probably wrong here, but I guess is it
kind of a C 12 style a little bit?

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Actually, no.

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One thing that we're really proud of

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is that we don't really do,
clones of anything,

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and we're not really trying
to emulate anything.

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So, I mean, there's
so many people doing that so well.

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So I guess it doesn't look like

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it has the classic grounding pin
in the middle of it, like I.

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And it looks like it's terminated
on the outside.

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Like it is just terminated a capsule.

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Yeah, but it's not actually a c
k 12 capsule c k 12 from like the AKG, C12

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like you talked about.

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And they were also in the C 24, the 414,
a couple other of their mics,

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the original brass ones are legendary
for how good they sound

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and also legendary
for how difficult they are to manufacture.

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The fact that AKG was able to pump out
any in like the 50s and 60s is a miracle,

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because they're so complex.

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It's this.

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This has one chamber between the between
the two back plates.

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The K 12 had four back
plates and three chambers,

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and all of those affected
the sound along with this diaphragm

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spacing, the diaphragm tension,
the way it was all drilled together,

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the way those chambers aligned
with each other, it was it's a nightmare

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to manufacture to this day,
and there's only a few people that do it.

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So this mic has an actual K 12 style
capsule in it.

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This is more like an edge terminated K 67,
but we do custom voice it

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with a different, different diaphragm
spacers, different diaphragm tensioning,

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things like that because we want it
to sound like our own mic.

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So so the C 12
thing is more about the chambers

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in there and less about where
it's terminated, I guess possibly.

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Yeah, that the center termination
is a Neumann thing.

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I would largely argue,

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because there's really only
so many styles of capsule out there,

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although there are companies coming out
with new and interesting

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capsules like er, London,
Audio-Technica and stuff like that.

233
00:11:26,582 --> 00:11:28,949
My lab has their rectangular ones or.

234
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:30,550
That's right, I forgot about my lab.

235
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:31,917
I should have,
I should have probably mentioned them

236
00:11:31,917 --> 00:11:34,801
because I'm always interested in anybody
that's pushing the envelope. Right.

237
00:11:34,801 --> 00:11:37,685
And Austrian audio
does their own capsule.

238
00:11:37,685 --> 00:11:41,286
That is it's ceramic based,
which is genius because it gets rid of

239
00:11:41,353 --> 00:11:45,337
some of the complications of manufacturing
and maintaining condenser capsules.

240
00:11:45,754 --> 00:11:45,971
Yeah.

241
00:11:45,971 --> 00:11:49,572
And it's supposedly, C12 it's a derivative

242
00:11:49,572 --> 00:11:52,573
or they, I think what are they
called, the c k 12 or something.

243
00:11:52,773 --> 00:11:54,223
Yeah. The K12. Yeah.

244
00:11:54,223 --> 00:11:57,608
Yeah. Secret K 12. Isn't it secret.

245
00:11:57,608 --> 00:11:58,474
Well yeah.

246
00:11:58,474 --> 00:12:01,859
Well if anybody is doing it,
it's the guys that were originally at AKG.

247
00:12:01,859 --> 00:12:03,042
And I know

248
00:12:03,042 --> 00:12:06,093
and like a lot of the guys that Austrian
and talk to them on a regular basis

249
00:12:06,093 --> 00:12:09,244
at Nam and stuff, they're good dudes
and they're really, really bright fellas.

250
00:12:09,244 --> 00:12:13,929
So supposedly
warm does a 414 brass capsule.

251
00:12:13,929 --> 00:12:14,612
Mike.

252
00:12:14,612 --> 00:12:18,147
But incorrect I,
I was just leave it there.

253
00:12:18,147 --> 00:12:18,447
Yeah.

254
00:12:18,447 --> 00:12:21,398
I was wondering how accurate of a brass.
Yeah.

255
00:12:21,398 --> 00:12:23,648
You know, what they do
is they mark it really well.

256
00:12:23,648 --> 00:12:25,799
They do it you know. Yes I do.

257
00:12:25,799 --> 00:12:29,550
It's funny because police
I do one the police I do the 414 but

258
00:12:29,817 --> 00:12:34,001
is there's the c k 12
or is it a version of it.

259
00:12:34,001 --> 00:12:37,602
According to John,
he just actually did a c k 12,

260
00:12:37,602 --> 00:12:40,087
but before that it was an edge
terminated k six and seven.

261
00:12:40,087 --> 00:12:41,670
Similar to this, I don't know.

262
00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:43,087
I haven't seen the new k 12.

263
00:12:43,087 --> 00:12:46,688
So the guys I know that are doing it
properly are been at business audio.

264
00:12:47,039 --> 00:12:50,373
Open plan recording does one
and they're also Australian weirdly

265
00:12:50,373 --> 00:12:52,057
although I don't really know
the guys there.

266
00:12:52,057 --> 00:12:54,791
Yeah they're not far from me
actually. Two.

267
00:12:54,791 --> 00:12:56,258
Yeah. They're okay.

268
00:12:56,258 --> 00:12:58,542
An hour away from where I live.

269
00:12:58,542 --> 00:13:00,409
I use the ones from Ben at Bee's knees.

270
00:13:00,409 --> 00:13:01,559
Oh, I was going to ask.

271
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,060
I was going to ask
you make your own capsule because, like

272
00:13:03,060 --> 00:13:06,761
because because I know that they,
distribute a lot of capsules, like,

273
00:13:06,761 --> 00:13:09,995
that was kind of what he got into
even more than making his bikes was,

274
00:13:10,595 --> 00:13:13,079
I'm in this manufacturer
and I'm in that manufacturer.

275
00:13:13,079 --> 00:13:17,948
I imagine once you once you tool out to
make something like capsule, you make it.

276
00:13:17,948 --> 00:13:19,398
On the DNC machine.

277
00:13:19,398 --> 00:13:21,815
Well,
you want to sell a lot of frickin capsules

278
00:13:21,815 --> 00:13:24,816
right at that point,
because it's not easy.

279
00:13:24,816 --> 00:13:28,234
Ben is probably
the only guy that can master like Tim

280
00:13:28,234 --> 00:13:31,385
Campbell makes great sequels,
and almost all of them go to flea

281
00:13:31,385 --> 00:13:33,102
because flea puts them
in their microphones.

282
00:13:33,102 --> 00:13:36,103
It's hard to get a hold of a Tim
Campbell sequel.

283
00:13:36,103 --> 00:13:38,470
Or, you know, for any of us capsules.

284
00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:42,721
There's a couple other guys that do it,
and I, their names are escaping me.

285
00:13:42,721 --> 00:13:46,723
So I apologize to to those fellas, but,
I really like Ben's

286
00:13:46,723 --> 00:13:48,073
because he can pump them out really quick.

287
00:13:48,073 --> 00:13:51,057
He can match them really well
because we put them in our in our high end

288
00:13:51,057 --> 00:13:54,275
stereo mic as well of the 24
and the front and the backs.

289
00:13:54,275 --> 00:13:56,309
And like all four diaphragms
have to be matched

290
00:13:56,309 --> 00:14:00,193
within like 1 or 2 of our odds of each
other for it to sound the same.

291
00:14:00,193 --> 00:14:01,143
Right? And for it to be a.

292
00:14:01,143 --> 00:14:03,777
Proper like figure eight
that's equal on both sides.

293
00:14:03,777 --> 00:14:06,128
And then you can do it correctly
and properly and all that. Yeah.

294
00:14:06,128 --> 00:14:09,879
Before you even get to how you're
polarizing it and how you're treating it

295
00:14:09,879 --> 00:14:14,014
within the circuit, the capsule
has to be constructed really, really well.

296
00:14:14,014 --> 00:14:18,432
And even then, you know, like, it's
so easy for them to come out of alignment

297
00:14:18,732 --> 00:14:21,449
from various and, and,
you know, if one screw comes loose, it

298
00:14:21,449 --> 00:14:24,600
messes up the whole diaphragm tension
because they're not glued to the ring.

299
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,468
Right? So, it's like a drumhead.

300
00:14:27,468 --> 00:14:31,502
You know, so there are some capsules that,
like our capsule,

301
00:14:31,752 --> 00:14:34,653
it's actually glued to the ring
when it's manufactured

302
00:14:34,653 --> 00:14:38,438
so that I could, in theory, take apart
the capsule, put it back together

303
00:14:38,771 --> 00:14:41,405
in a clean room because you don't want
any dust in there whatsoever,

304
00:14:41,405 --> 00:14:42,722
and it would still sound the same.

305
00:14:42,722 --> 00:14:45,723
Whereas with a k 12, you.

306
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:46,540
So. Yeah.

307
00:14:46,540 --> 00:14:47,073
Yeah. Why?

308
00:14:47,073 --> 00:14:48,307
What's the difference? There's.

309
00:14:48,307 --> 00:14:51,308
Because I've got a 414 EB. Yeah.

310
00:14:51,358 --> 00:14:53,459
Yes. It's got a 93 ring to it.

311
00:14:53,459 --> 00:14:55,142
But it's got the nylon capsule.

312
00:14:55,142 --> 00:14:56,459
Yeah. At here.

313
00:14:56,459 --> 00:14:57,843
Hang on, I've got one on my desk

314
00:14:57,843 --> 00:14:59,827
because I repair mics for
a living and I can show you.

315
00:15:01,594 --> 00:15:02,861
We might be calling you.

316
00:15:02,861 --> 00:15:06,012
I have some. Oh.

317
00:15:07,513 --> 00:15:09,063
Where where are you located?

318
00:15:09,063 --> 00:15:12,431
Actually, Derek might have an inside line
on getting some mics fixed for you

319
00:15:12,431 --> 00:15:13,181
there, Robert.

320
00:15:13,181 --> 00:15:15,131
Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah.

321
00:15:15,131 --> 00:15:17,015
You guys want to talk offline?

322
00:15:17,015 --> 00:15:17,916
Oh that's fine.

323
00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:22,317
I've got, I've got,
m 49 to use 67 sitting in a box over here.

324
00:15:22,317 --> 00:15:25,451
I've got, I've got at any time
I've got like 20 or 30

325
00:15:25,451 --> 00:15:27,818
grand worth of vintage
mic sitting that aren't working.

326
00:15:27,818 --> 00:15:30,152
So this is the one you're talking about.
This are Teflon first.

327
00:15:30,152 --> 00:15:30,369
Yeah.

328
00:15:30,369 --> 00:15:31,019
Yeah, yeah.

329
00:15:31,019 --> 00:15:34,054
So, when AKG was making that original K

330
00:15:34,054 --> 00:15:37,271
12, brass capsule,
it was incredibly complicated.

331
00:15:37,421 --> 00:15:39,905
Ingenious designs,
super difficult to manufacture.

332
00:15:39,905 --> 00:15:40,589
They were thrown away

333
00:15:40,589 --> 00:15:43,656
about half the capsules
they built with a standard wooden RCA.

334
00:15:43,957 --> 00:15:45,340
So what they did is

335
00:15:45,340 --> 00:15:48,808
they came out with something
that was much simpler to manufacture.

336
00:15:49,241 --> 00:15:50,859
It does not have the complex back plates.

337
00:15:50,859 --> 00:15:53,826
In fact,
you can see inside it's all plastic.

338
00:15:53,826 --> 00:15:55,110
And they have a little screen

339
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:58,144
in there as the acoustic resistance
in between the two capsules

340
00:15:58,377 --> 00:15:59,944
and then the back plate itself.

341
00:15:59,944 --> 00:16:01,378
I don't know if I have a back
plate in here.

342
00:16:01,378 --> 00:16:01,862
Gotcha.

343
00:16:01,862 --> 00:16:04,829
I'll show you right now because I've got
I've got this whole thing apart

344
00:16:04,829 --> 00:16:07,597
so I don't have. A whole thing. Right?

345
00:16:07,597 --> 00:16:10,114
Yes, yes. Here's the diaphragm. Right.

346
00:16:10,114 --> 00:16:11,348
This is one with a hole in it.

347
00:16:11,348 --> 00:16:14,349
Speaking of broken diaphragms,
you can see why this one had to come out.

348
00:16:14,349 --> 00:16:18,133
So, so so what happens with that one is
that it's short set with someone's breath.

349
00:16:18,133 --> 00:16:19,467
Because of the hole, right?

350
00:16:19,467 --> 00:16:22,751
Yes. Or it shorts out already
right against the back of the diaphragm

351
00:16:22,751 --> 00:16:23,918
because it's a capacitor. Right.

352
00:16:23,918 --> 00:16:25,602
So you have to have a charge state
between the.

353
00:16:25,602 --> 00:16:27,936
Two of them and it just attracts. Yeah.

354
00:16:27,936 --> 00:16:31,904
And if electrons are no
they have a short over to the other side.

355
00:16:31,904 --> 00:16:34,288
Then you no longer
have a charge state on them.

356
00:16:34,288 --> 00:16:37,355
I don't have a back plate in this box
oddly enough, but yeah.

357
00:16:37,355 --> 00:16:38,189
Back plates.

358
00:16:38,189 --> 00:16:42,190
This is a newer this is the egg,
the Teflon capsule that has the newer.

359
00:16:42,190 --> 00:16:44,891
You can see those holes in the back
for the resistance.

360
00:16:44,891 --> 00:16:46,441
Back plates generally look like that.

361
00:16:46,441 --> 00:16:47,492
I wish I had grabbed the.

362
00:16:47,492 --> 00:16:48,992
So I've seen some of the back back plates

363
00:16:48,992 --> 00:16:51,043
that have like holes
all the way through them.

364
00:16:51,043 --> 00:16:52,693
Like all over the place. Yeah.

365
00:16:52,693 --> 00:16:57,778
And then some just have and that's, that's
to let the acoustic pressure go through.

366
00:16:57,778 --> 00:16:59,495
Right.
That's the purpose of those holes. Yes.

367
00:16:59,495 --> 00:17:01,212
There is through holes
and there's blind holes.

368
00:17:01,212 --> 00:17:01,896
Blind hole.

369
00:17:01,896 --> 00:17:05,397
And they both serve similar purposes
in some way.

370
00:17:05,397 --> 00:17:10,115
But blind holes are like act like dampers
because if you had no blind holes

371
00:17:10,598 --> 00:17:13,749
and this was tuned to 1000Hz
and somebody sings 1000Hz

372
00:17:13,749 --> 00:17:16,750
into it, it's going to ring just like a
like a tom, right?

373
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,451
Like a for Tom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

374
00:17:18,451 --> 00:17:21,868
So those blind holes, what they do is
they are an acoustic damping factor

375
00:17:21,868 --> 00:17:24,219
that prevent it
from resonating at its frequency.

376
00:17:24,219 --> 00:17:28,537
So then across the spectrum
you get, in theory even sound,

377
00:17:28,537 --> 00:17:33,038
although, you know, because it's nothing's
perfect and there's physics at play.

378
00:17:33,572 --> 00:17:34,922
That's
why there's so many different capsules

379
00:17:34,922 --> 00:17:36,089
that sound so many different ways.

380
00:17:36,089 --> 00:17:37,439
They sound like our ears.

381
00:17:37,439 --> 00:17:39,307
So quick, quick add moment.

382
00:17:39,307 --> 00:17:44,158
But therefore a small diaphragm microphone
has a much higher resonant frequency,

383
00:17:44,158 --> 00:17:48,126
and that makes it better to tune
and flatter across the audible spectrum.

384
00:17:48,576 --> 00:17:50,827
Not necessarily because it's by tension.

385
00:17:50,827 --> 00:17:51,427
Right.

386
00:17:51,427 --> 00:17:53,311
Part of the reason why they are,

387
00:17:53,311 --> 00:17:57,095
there's less mass,
so there's less to work with there.

388
00:17:57,412 --> 00:18:01,113
And then I did a video on this
and I won't get super deep into it,

389
00:18:01,113 --> 00:18:05,014
but off axis response tends
to be much better on small diaphragms.

390
00:18:05,014 --> 00:18:06,181
Because.

391
00:18:06,181 --> 00:18:09,299
Of the way that it interprets
sound as a pressure microphone.

392
00:18:09,699 --> 00:18:13,600
And,
and I did a video on this on Instagram.

393
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,067
I'm not going to explain it to you guys.

394
00:18:15,067 --> 00:18:18,268
I think if your audience hasn't
bored to tears yet, I might not.

395
00:18:18,268 --> 00:18:19,151
Some of them might start.

396
00:18:19,151 --> 00:18:22,419
I can already tell you for now,
this the the three hours that we have

397
00:18:22,419 --> 00:18:23,669
will not be enough. But that's

398
00:18:25,237 --> 00:18:26,487
what's so to answer.

399
00:18:26,487 --> 00:18:28,271
Andrew. Right. Andrew.

400
00:18:28,271 --> 00:18:29,288
Zap it.

401
00:18:29,288 --> 00:18:30,638
To answer your original question,

402
00:18:30,638 --> 00:18:32,639
they went to the Teflon capsules
because they're easier

403
00:18:32,639 --> 00:18:35,139
to mass manufacture,
but they don't sound nearly as good.

404
00:18:35,139 --> 00:18:39,958
Now, the EBS were the last ones to use the
brass capsules, but not all of them did.

405
00:18:40,324 --> 00:18:44,859
That said, I greatly prefer the EP 48,
which was the one after it.

406
00:18:45,009 --> 00:18:45,959
To the EB.

407
00:18:45,959 --> 00:18:48,993
Circuit wise, it's a much better
circuit, has quieter,

408
00:18:49,144 --> 00:18:54,929
it has better output, less self noise,
higher, spoils before distortion.

409
00:18:55,062 --> 00:18:58,680
But people like the EBS because they were
the last one to use the brass capsule.

410
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,481
If you take a knees brass capsule
and put it in an EB, which I've done for 3

411
00:19:02,481 --> 00:19:06,449
or 4 clients
now, they sound extraordinary.

412
00:19:06,449 --> 00:19:07,716
They sound so good.

413
00:19:07,716 --> 00:19:10,333
I've got my abs a p 48.

414
00:19:10,333 --> 00:19:13,317
How do you tell the difference between O
and EB 48?

415
00:19:13,767 --> 00:19:16,551
An E? Well, it's whack for one. Yeah.

416
00:19:16,551 --> 00:19:17,702
So it is.

417
00:19:17,702 --> 00:19:22,003
Okay so the so the brass ones are silver
and the P40 eight is gotcha.

418
00:19:22,003 --> 00:19:25,237
But some of the, some of the silver ones
had the Teflon capsules too.

419
00:19:25,237 --> 00:19:27,421
That's when they changed over. Yeah.

420
00:19:27,421 --> 00:19:31,439
But you can tell a Teflon capsule just
by looking straight into it because yeah.

421
00:19:31,472 --> 00:19:33,990
I mean I mean a brass capsule looks like.

422
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:35,557
Yeah. You see. Yeah. Yeah.

423
00:19:35,557 --> 00:19:38,374
I wish I had one sitting on my desk,
but you can see it right through.

424
00:19:38,374 --> 00:19:41,309
And you'll see the Teflon when it looks
white like this on the inside,

425
00:19:41,309 --> 00:19:43,443
all you gotta do is shine
a light through the back of it.

426
00:19:43,443 --> 00:19:45,643
And if you see, I just dropped this one.

427
00:19:45,643 --> 00:19:47,160
Not that it matters, because. That it's.

428
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,144
Very broken. Yes.

429
00:19:49,144 --> 00:19:51,478
Yeah,
I think it had more problems before that.

430
00:19:51,478 --> 00:19:55,513
But, you can actually see this little
like crinkly material

431
00:19:55,513 --> 00:19:57,963
that they use for the spacer
because you can actually unscrew this.

432
00:19:57,963 --> 00:20:00,448
This is two halves, believe it or not.

433
00:20:00,448 --> 00:20:02,315
You can see that's that crinkly material.

434
00:20:02,315 --> 00:20:04,232
And you can see that on some of them,
on the older.

435
00:20:04,232 --> 00:20:06,333
Ones you can probably see mine.

436
00:20:06,333 --> 00:20:07,950
Can you see it's white.

437
00:20:07,950 --> 00:20:08,333
Yeah.

438
00:20:08,333 --> 00:20:09,934
Yeah I believe it is also the

439
00:20:09,934 --> 00:20:13,618
you'll see screws on the brass
like you see the ring on this.

440
00:20:13,918 --> 00:20:15,519
Yeah. They just pressure fit this.

441
00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:18,753
So there's no screws on this one
and on this one.

442
00:20:19,086 --> 00:20:21,154
And I'm just going to move this one
because. This is a.

443
00:20:21,154 --> 00:20:21,820
Make this sound right.

444
00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:23,721
So this is a brass capsule cage.

445
00:20:23,721 --> 00:20:26,388
This is a. Brass K 12.
You can see the screws on the right.

446
00:20:26,388 --> 00:20:27,972
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

447
00:20:27,972 --> 00:20:30,940
So that's like
that's like a $3,000 Mike or something.

448
00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:33,707
What is that. This is a $5,000 Mike Jesus.

449
00:20:33,707 --> 00:20:36,008
This is a
this is and I'm not even talking into it.

450
00:20:36,008 --> 00:20:38,742
Here's me talking into it right now.
Let me change over.

451
00:20:38,742 --> 00:20:40,242
Can you guys hear me? Okay. Yep.

452
00:20:40,242 --> 00:20:41,043
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

453
00:20:41,043 --> 00:20:43,977
I was turned sideways,
so you probably hear me very well at all.

454
00:20:43,977 --> 00:20:45,461
This one has three voicings on it.

455
00:20:45,461 --> 00:20:48,245
So it has a ribbon mode,
a c 12 mode and a 251 mode.

456
00:20:48,245 --> 00:20:48,962
Oh. Can hear the

457
00:20:50,045 --> 00:20:50,379
oh yeah.

458
00:20:50,379 --> 00:20:51,696
Sure you're going to hear a pop.

459
00:20:51,696 --> 00:20:53,563
So that's a lot to fix that in post.

460
00:20:53,563 --> 00:20:54,997
Right now I want to make one.

461
00:20:54,997 --> 00:20:57,547
Condenser mike sound like a ribbon.

462
00:20:57,547 --> 00:20:59,398
A lot of it is just voicing right.

463
00:20:59,398 --> 00:21:02,399
It's selective EQ ING with

464
00:21:02,399 --> 00:21:05,400
with different functions
within the actual audio circuit.

465
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:07,800
But now we're in ribbon mode,
and I've currently got

466
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,234
the voltage pushed all the way up,
and it's in hyper cardioid.

467
00:21:10,234 --> 00:21:12,552
So let me throw in figure eight.
So it's actually even more like a ribbon.

468
00:21:12,552 --> 00:21:14,552
Wow. Even over with me.

469
00:21:14,552 --> 00:21:16,053
We can really hear that.

470
00:21:16,053 --> 00:21:18,237
Oh, I can totally hear the difference over
Google me.

471
00:21:18,237 --> 00:21:19,370
Yeah. Nine polar.

472
00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:22,871
I wish I wish I hadn't taken apart
my entire desk right before this

473
00:21:22,871 --> 00:21:24,905
because my interface was misbehaving.

474
00:21:24,905 --> 00:21:26,789
Oh, and you're hearing me
throw a focus right to it, too.

475
00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:27,790
There's nothing.

476
00:21:27,790 --> 00:21:30,990
So the V 14 is the C12
one that you're on right now.

477
00:21:31,774 --> 00:21:33,158
Yes, it's. The K 12.

478
00:21:33,158 --> 00:21:37,259
So this has the polar patterns
and it also has a tube voltage control.

479
00:21:37,259 --> 00:21:40,510
So right now I'm overdriving the tube
on this microphone.

480
00:21:40,510 --> 00:21:43,811
But I can also sag it back and it's
going to sound completely different.

481
00:21:43,811 --> 00:21:46,628
You're also going to lose several decibels
as I say I get back.

482
00:21:46,628 --> 00:21:47,829
But let's let it stabilize.

483
00:21:48,879 --> 00:21:51,663
And I'm
going to punch this up a little bit,

484
00:21:51,663 --> 00:21:54,431
and now it's going to sound
like a different microphone.

485
00:21:54,431 --> 00:21:56,848
My, because of the way.

486
00:21:56,848 --> 00:21:59,915
Yeah. So I gotta
I gotta punch that back up.

487
00:21:59,915 --> 00:22:01,899
I'm going to dial it back. There we go.

488
00:22:01,899 --> 00:22:03,867
Dial it back to a more reasonable level.

489
00:22:03,867 --> 00:22:06,301
This is split personality microphone.

490
00:22:06,301 --> 00:22:07,451
It sounds.

491
00:22:07,451 --> 00:22:10,268
It's. About as analog modeling microphone
as you can get.

492
00:22:10,268 --> 00:22:11,219
So I'll say it.

493
00:22:11,219 --> 00:22:14,503
But I don't think anybody has that ability
like now.

494
00:22:14,503 --> 00:22:17,404
Like I've got to sag the voltage
or overdrive the voltage.

495
00:22:17,404 --> 00:22:19,021
Right on the microphone itself.

496
00:22:19,021 --> 00:22:21,789
I've got a provisional patent on that
because it's going to go in our V 13

497
00:22:21,789 --> 00:22:22,472
eventually as well.

498
00:22:22,472 --> 00:22:23,689
So yeah.

499
00:22:23,689 --> 00:22:26,740
This is the sort of mad scientist stuff.

500
00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:29,341
I mean, you can see this is my little mad
scientist desk because.

501
00:22:29,341 --> 00:22:31,491
This. Is much bigger.

502
00:22:31,491 --> 00:22:33,659
It's going to comment on the background.
Yeah.

503
00:22:33,659 --> 00:22:35,342
Yeah,
that's that's why I do my mic repairs.

504
00:22:35,342 --> 00:22:39,477
I've got a national Panasonic M7 38
open on the desk right now.

505
00:22:39,844 --> 00:22:44,829
So which is their version of a Sony
C 37 fat, Okay. Wow.

506
00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:46,746
Panasonic made microphones for a while.

507
00:22:46,746 --> 00:22:49,597
Believe it or not,
that's. Bizarre that I live in either.

508
00:22:49,597 --> 00:22:49,980
And then I.

509
00:22:49,980 --> 00:22:52,081
Switch back to the other microphone
so you guys can actually.

510
00:22:52,081 --> 00:22:53,881
How do you keep
all those numbers in your head?

511
00:22:53,881 --> 00:22:55,748
Because I I'll be honest with you.

512
00:22:55,748 --> 00:22:59,983
I mean, like my models and stuff,
I'm useless.

513
00:23:00,150 --> 00:23:03,701
Seriously, hold all those numbers
and, you know, models and stuff.

514
00:23:04,484 --> 00:23:05,651
And. All that stuff.

515
00:23:05,651 --> 00:23:07,769
Yeah,
I think I straight up I'm on the spectrum.

516
00:23:07,769 --> 00:23:09,002
I wouldn't be terribly surprised.

517
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,336
But also like, you like what you focus
on, right?

518
00:23:12,336 --> 00:23:14,737
Like, if you're into fantasy football,
you can name, like,

519
00:23:14,737 --> 00:23:17,255
the third string quarterback
for every team in the NFL.

520
00:23:17,255 --> 00:23:17,471
Yeah.

521
00:23:17,471 --> 00:23:19,872
Any concert
I can name all the mikes on the drum

522
00:23:19,872 --> 00:23:23,907
set and everything like, oh, that's a
I know, D4 21, right?

523
00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:24,657
Yeah.

524
00:23:24,657 --> 00:23:27,124
It's just it's just how I roll.
And that's what I'm into.

525
00:23:27,124 --> 00:23:28,174
So, you know.

526
00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:30,508
My brother's an airline pilots
I suppose it's similar.

527
00:23:30,508 --> 00:23:31,025
It's the same.

528
00:23:31,025 --> 00:23:33,543
So yeah, it's just
you know, human brain is a powerful thing.

529
00:23:33,543 --> 00:23:35,860
You just have to focus its attention
on things.

530
00:23:35,860 --> 00:23:36,994
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

531
00:23:36,994 --> 00:23:39,544
Now, talking of diaphragms,
what about the M7?

532
00:23:39,544 --> 00:23:40,928
I have an M7 capsule.

533
00:23:40,928 --> 00:23:42,479
Let's talk about protected sex.

534
00:23:42,479 --> 00:23:45,063
Oh, sorry.

535
00:23:45,063 --> 00:23:47,330
And with mylar or the.

536
00:23:47,330 --> 00:23:50,281
Yeah,
I think Rob. So the M7. Conversation.

537
00:23:50,281 --> 00:23:53,282
Anyway, go. Yeah. It's kind of the you.

538
00:23:55,782 --> 00:23:56,249
Right.

539
00:23:56,249 --> 00:23:58,800
The most brutal. In the groove. Yeah.

540
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,801
They said that but can't get pregnant.

541
00:24:02,968 --> 00:24:03,785
Anyway, so.

542
00:24:03,785 --> 00:24:07,753
The M7 was the predecessor
in many ways to the K

543
00:24:07,769 --> 00:24:10,770
47 which is in the year 47 in fact.

544
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,087
And somebody is going to correct me
on this.

545
00:24:13,087 --> 00:24:14,404
My Neumann history isn't good.

546
00:24:14,404 --> 00:24:17,039
So if I'm wrong, somebody in the comments
on undoubtedly tell. Me actually.

547
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,673
Then I feel like some of the
you 40 sevens actually had him sevens

548
00:24:20,673 --> 00:24:23,490
and they did initially.
They absolutely did. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

549
00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:25,691
Now the M7 was very tough,

550
00:24:25,691 --> 00:24:29,142
even more difficult manufacturer
in some ways than the than the K12

551
00:24:29,159 --> 00:24:30,809
because of the way
the diaphragm was glued on.

552
00:24:30,809 --> 00:24:34,294
And also they were using polyvinyl
chloride, using PVC for the diaphragm.

553
00:24:34,294 --> 00:24:36,694
That's instead of
it would disintegrate, right.

554
00:24:36,694 --> 00:24:37,528
It would disintegrate.

555
00:24:37,528 --> 00:24:38,078
That's correct.

556
00:24:38,078 --> 00:24:41,462
In fact I wish I had it available.

557
00:24:41,462 --> 00:24:45,747
I have an M7 here right now
that looks like it's been hit by a gun.

558
00:24:46,247 --> 00:24:49,681
And M7 capsule
was just completely exploded.

559
00:24:49,681 --> 00:24:52,782
It looks like the alien baby
from the movie came out.

560
00:24:52,782 --> 00:24:53,683
Yeah, yeah.

561
00:24:53,683 --> 00:24:55,800
I don't know what somebody did to it,
but it's getting re scan.

562
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,767
Not by me.

563
00:24:56,767 --> 00:24:58,901
I drink too much coffee for re scans.

564
00:24:58,901 --> 00:25:00,251
Although I am eventually going to learn,

565
00:25:00,251 --> 00:25:03,069
I promised myself
I just, I just haven't done it yet,

566
00:25:03,069 --> 00:25:06,453
so I'm going to send it down to Dave
Willard Heisman, who does re scans for me.

567
00:25:06,453 --> 00:25:11,171
And, Dave Pearlman in LA also does
there's theater in Europe that does but,

568
00:25:12,305 --> 00:25:13,872
yeah, the M7 has a very

569
00:25:13,872 --> 00:25:18,190
similar hole back
plate design to the, to AK 47.

570
00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:20,007
It's actually a single back plate.

571
00:25:20,007 --> 00:25:22,691
Whereas with the K 67
they actually do two back plates

572
00:25:22,691 --> 00:25:24,275
because it's easier to match the two.

573
00:25:24,275 --> 00:25:25,842
The two are the two sides.

574
00:25:25,842 --> 00:25:27,509
I suppose because of the voltage

575
00:25:27,509 --> 00:25:31,177
increase on the two might compare to the U
87 that needed a lower voltage.

576
00:25:31,443 --> 00:25:34,561
No, actually the the K 47 and the K

577
00:25:34,561 --> 00:25:37,929
67 can handle similar polarization
voltages before collapse.

578
00:25:37,929 --> 00:25:40,930
I think it's more to do
with ease of manufacturing.

579
00:25:41,413 --> 00:25:43,297
So the K 40.

580
00:25:43,297 --> 00:25:47,998
Does that difference in space cause
an issue in figure eight with phase? No.

581
00:25:48,715 --> 00:25:49,782
It doesn't.

582
00:25:49,782 --> 00:25:50,466
Know.

583
00:25:50,466 --> 00:25:53,100
I mean, I'm in figure
eight on this other mic right here.

584
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,034
So let me turn it back up real quick.

585
00:25:55,034 --> 00:25:59,068
And this is, this is two back plates,
a k 12 style

586
00:25:59,068 --> 00:26:00,669
capsule has two back plates on it.

587
00:26:00,669 --> 00:26:02,703
And I'm talking to the front right now.

588
00:26:02,703 --> 00:26:04,570
Now I'm talking to the side and I got you.

589
00:26:04,570 --> 00:26:07,321
You can. Barely hear. I swear to God,
I swear to God.

590
00:26:07,321 --> 00:26:10,388
Ribbon makes no out to zero. And the.

591
00:26:10,421 --> 00:26:14,289
And the dual
diaphragm condenser is on the side.

592
00:26:14,289 --> 00:26:17,140
Don't quite know out like a ribbon does.

593
00:26:17,140 --> 00:26:21,091
I think it's possible
that there is a slight change in that,

594
00:26:21,091 --> 00:26:25,176
but I think for the effect
of what you're actually looking for in,

595
00:26:26,493 --> 00:26:28,293
in, in actual real world

596
00:26:28,293 --> 00:26:32,161
usage that no, you're talking
from going from like,

597
00:26:32,161 --> 00:26:35,429
let's say I'm peaking at minus
ten to now, I'm peaking at -65.

598
00:26:35,462 --> 00:26:37,029
Yeah. It's negligible.

599
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:38,430
It's effectively nothing.

600
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:38,880
Well, the only.

601
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,030
Reason we could hear you just

602
00:26:40,030 --> 00:26:43,414
then when you did your side test,
was to see the reverberation itself.

603
00:26:43,448 --> 00:26:44,431
Also down here.

604
00:26:44,431 --> 00:26:48,516
Only hearing your voice bouncing
off the wall the mike was pointing. At.

605
00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:50,616
But that would direct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

606
00:26:50,616 --> 00:26:51,217
Oh, so there's.

607
00:26:51,217 --> 00:26:52,467
A couple other things at play.

608
00:26:52,467 --> 00:26:54,601
If so,
because we tune this very carefully.

609
00:26:54,601 --> 00:26:58,085
So that the back plate voltage is exactly
half of the rear diaphragm voltage

610
00:26:58,502 --> 00:26:59,919
because the front diaphragm is grounded.

611
00:26:59,919 --> 00:27:00,303
Right.

612
00:27:00,303 --> 00:27:03,120
So you were talking about balance power
earlier and it's kind of the same thing.

613
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:03,754
Right.

614
00:27:03,754 --> 00:27:04,504
So basically

615
00:27:04,504 --> 00:27:08,172
what's happening is the back plates
charge to let's say 50V to make it easy.

616
00:27:08,488 --> 00:27:09,822
The front diaphragm is grounded.

617
00:27:09,822 --> 00:27:11,022
So now we have a 50 volt

618
00:27:11,022 --> 00:27:14,023
potential between the front diaphragm
and the back plate 50 -0.

619
00:27:14,073 --> 00:27:17,824
Now if we put the real one at 100V
it's 50 -100.

620
00:27:17,824 --> 00:27:19,558
So it's -50.

621
00:27:19,558 --> 00:27:23,159
-50 potential between the rear diaphragm
in the back plate.

622
00:27:23,893 --> 00:27:27,961
And so when I talk into the front, it's
producing, sine wave.

623
00:27:27,961 --> 00:27:30,178
And when I talking to the rear, it's
producing a cosine.

624
00:27:30,178 --> 00:27:32,379
And when you go to the side, then it goes.

625
00:27:32,379 --> 00:27:34,446
Cancels out saying plus cosine
is. Exactly.

626
00:27:34,446 --> 00:27:36,847
Yeah, exactly.
You remember math class. Not ever.

627
00:27:36,847 --> 00:27:38,680
But it is a. Little bit to makes sense.
Yeah.

628
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,481
Yeah okay. Yeah. Yeah.

629
00:27:40,481 --> 00:27:42,932
So that that's one way to polarize.

630
00:27:42,932 --> 00:27:45,699
Not that's
not every capital polarization scheme.

631
00:27:45,699 --> 00:27:47,616
That's the one that we use
on all our microphones.

632
00:27:47,616 --> 00:27:50,184
But I think it's probably the cleverest.

633
00:27:50,184 --> 00:27:51,851
But there are other ways to do it.

634
00:27:51,851 --> 00:27:55,018
I mean, you could peel this onion down
as much as you wanted.

635
00:27:55,102 --> 00:27:57,336
And we could get so nerdy here.

636
00:27:58,386 --> 00:28:00,220
But I hope I'm hope.

637
00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:01,920
Like I said, I hope you're audio juice.

638
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,471
Did you do a diaphragm
where actually you do a single diaphragm,

639
00:28:05,471 --> 00:28:08,322
and then you put the charge plate.

640
00:28:08,322 --> 00:28:09,973
On the outside. On the. Outside?

641
00:28:09,973 --> 00:28:12,957
Yeah. Yes.
And there are mics that do that.

642
00:28:12,990 --> 00:28:13,424
Yeah.

643
00:28:13,424 --> 00:28:16,075
There are mics for the diaphragms
in between two charge plates.

644
00:28:16,075 --> 00:28:16,625
But then you're.

645
00:28:16,625 --> 00:28:20,226
But then you're literally singing
through those holes and you get the.

646
00:28:20,976 --> 00:28:23,910
Not necessarily a problem,
believe it or not.

647
00:28:23,910 --> 00:28:24,410
Yeah.

648
00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:27,061
Not necessarily a problem,
but there are mics

649
00:28:27,061 --> 00:28:30,062
where there's a suspended
diaphragm between two, two back plates.

650
00:28:30,395 --> 00:28:32,313
Yeah,
they come with their own sets of problems.

651
00:28:32,313 --> 00:28:34,947
I've never designed one.
I don't even think I've worked on one.

652
00:28:34,947 --> 00:28:37,547
And I'm kind of glad
because they're complicated.

653
00:28:37,547 --> 00:28:40,115
But, you know, never say never.

654
00:28:40,115 --> 00:28:40,982
Let me ask you something.

655
00:28:40,982 --> 00:28:43,499
About what is important
about a mic design.

656
00:28:43,499 --> 00:28:47,350
Now, this may seem terribly obvious,
but it may not be what is the most.

657
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:50,351
And like if you're looking
at the main components of a microphone,

658
00:28:50,351 --> 00:28:51,335
what influences

659
00:28:51,335 --> 00:28:55,119
the sound that the actor of the performer
is going to hear the most?

660
00:28:55,119 --> 00:28:59,621
Is it the capsule, the electronics,
or is the tube or what is?

661
00:28:59,621 --> 00:29:00,337
Yeah.

662
00:29:00,337 --> 00:29:02,705
Because I've understood
this whole interview.

663
00:29:04,239 --> 00:29:07,139
I think
that like tube mikes for a long time

664
00:29:07,139 --> 00:29:08,923
I was like YouTube make tube to make.

665
00:29:08,923 --> 00:29:12,424
And it's like tubes don't make as big
of a difference as transformers.

666
00:29:12,874 --> 00:29:13,658
I think.

667
00:29:13,658 --> 00:29:16,209
And the capsules are a lot of the voicing.

668
00:29:16,209 --> 00:29:20,777
The capsules are 90% of it, honestly,
like I can the way I look at that.

669
00:29:20,827 --> 00:29:23,711
So we use the same capsule in our V 13
R v for

670
00:29:23,711 --> 00:29:25,895
and because of that
you can tell their siblings, right?

671
00:29:25,895 --> 00:29:27,479
It's like when you look at two people
and you're like,

672
00:29:27,479 --> 00:29:28,896
you definitely came from the same parents.

673
00:29:28,896 --> 00:29:34,647
The capsule I think has such
a strong influence on on the voicing.

674
00:29:34,647 --> 00:29:36,881
Now, there are things you can do
in the circuit that change that.

675
00:29:36,881 --> 00:29:41,133
The most obvious being actual passive
EQ moves, like,

676
00:29:41,133 --> 00:29:45,417
like roll offs
and, and, inductive tertiary loops.

677
00:29:45,417 --> 00:29:49,018
And what those people are doing
is changing out

678
00:29:49,035 --> 00:29:52,136
circuit to try to influence
the voicing of the mic in some way.

679
00:29:52,152 --> 00:29:54,670
Sometimes,
sometimes they replacing the full capsule.

680
00:29:54,670 --> 00:29:56,220
If it's a crummy capsule, you know,

681
00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:58,504
that's the single biggest thing
you can do.

682
00:29:58,504 --> 00:30:00,872
I liken it
to, like, making a steak. Right.

683
00:30:00,872 --> 00:30:03,872
Apologies to any vegans and vegetarians
in the audience.

684
00:30:04,056 --> 00:30:06,123
I don't eat beef anymore myself,
so I understand.

685
00:30:06,123 --> 00:30:09,124
But if you're making a steak
and you start out with, like, skirt

686
00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:11,891
meat, right, you can make a Kearney asada,
but God help you

687
00:30:11,891 --> 00:30:14,275
if you're trying to make, like a rib eye,
you know,

688
00:30:14,275 --> 00:30:16,026
I mean, gotta get the right cut.

689
00:30:16,026 --> 00:30:18,243
I mean, been the bee's knees
kind of explain that to me

690
00:30:18,243 --> 00:30:19,294
because it, like, long ago,

691
00:30:19,294 --> 00:30:22,445
I had them take some Mike's
and I gave him some Chinese Mike's, too.

692
00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:23,828
And this was

693
00:30:23,828 --> 00:30:26,829
when he was starting out, like,
I think at this point, like 15 years ago.

694
00:30:27,313 --> 00:30:31,080
And I was like,
I want to basically like a nice two

695
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,181
mike out of this Chinese Mike,
just change the circuit.

696
00:30:33,181 --> 00:30:34,748
And he's like, know me.

697
00:30:34,748 --> 00:30:37,199
Like I'm doing the whole Mike.

698
00:30:37,199 --> 00:30:40,333
Like the only thing
that's going to survive is the body.

699
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:43,084
Yeah. You're basically
you're just using the chassis. Right.

700
00:30:43,084 --> 00:30:43,951
And like the.

701
00:30:43,951 --> 00:30:47,468
And Ben wins his own toroidal transformers
with glass laminations

702
00:30:47,468 --> 00:30:48,485
and all this crazy stuff.

703
00:30:48,485 --> 00:30:49,586
I don't get that deep.

704
00:30:49,586 --> 00:30:52,353
But, he probably he he'd probably be.

705
00:30:52,353 --> 00:30:56,971
You know, if you really want a super nerd
guest, he would put me to shame.

706
00:30:57,221 --> 00:31:00,239
In terms of Mike, you know,
with the capsule design itself, but so.

707
00:31:00,239 --> 00:31:03,273
So the capsule itself is the number one
thing that influences the tone.

708
00:31:03,273 --> 00:31:04,840
The next thing down the list would be.

709
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,507
What transformer, I think.

710
00:31:06,507 --> 00:31:08,341
Oh, I disagree on that, actually.

711
00:31:08,341 --> 00:31:11,075
Ooh, the transformer is size.

712
00:31:11,075 --> 00:31:12,842
Transformer size. Yes.

713
00:31:12,842 --> 00:31:15,093
It's not the size of the transformer. It's
how you use it.

714
00:31:15,093 --> 00:31:16,744
Fight fight fight fight.

715
00:31:16,744 --> 00:31:18,961
So the transformer transformer.

716
00:31:18,961 --> 00:31:23,979
Can be depending on the way
it's hit by the amplifying,

717
00:31:23,979 --> 00:31:26,496
by the actual act of electronics, the tube
or the FET.

718
00:31:26,496 --> 00:31:27,280
Right. Okay.

719
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,481
I would say that the most important thing

720
00:31:30,481 --> 00:31:33,132
after that is what the capsule goes into.

721
00:31:33,132 --> 00:31:35,132
And it's it's an impedance converter.
Right.

722
00:31:35,132 --> 00:31:37,983
Capsule impedance is super crazy high
like giga ohms.

723
00:31:37,983 --> 00:31:39,300
We're talking. Right.

724
00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:42,401
So when it gets when it hits the FET,
the FET reduces it

725
00:31:42,401 --> 00:31:45,402
to a more manageable impedance, usually
in the thousands of arms or the tube.

726
00:31:45,752 --> 00:31:49,987
And then the transformer does even more
so a lot of the time, although not all is.

727
00:31:49,987 --> 00:31:50,937
It depends on the mic.

728
00:31:50,937 --> 00:31:55,138
So what it's hitting
next is the Japhet or the tube.

729
00:31:55,271 --> 00:31:56,638
And I think that probably has

730
00:31:56,638 --> 00:32:00,190
the second biggest influence because that
signal is unadulterated at that point.

731
00:32:00,606 --> 00:32:04,557
Then I probably go
with any signal path capacitors

732
00:32:05,008 --> 00:32:08,192
at a certain level,
a lot of cheaper bikes are using super

733
00:32:08,192 --> 00:32:11,893
cheap signal path capacitors,
and they can introduce distortion

734
00:32:12,393 --> 00:32:16,211
and depending on the mic design.

735
00:32:16,211 --> 00:32:20,195
I will credit Robert here that the
Transformers probably next on that list

736
00:32:20,412 --> 00:32:23,980
if the capacitors are already good,
or if the signal path capacitors

737
00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:26,981
don't mean anything
to the audio in particular, but you have

738
00:32:27,364 --> 00:32:29,848
that minimum, you have one
which is decoupling the power

739
00:32:29,848 --> 00:32:33,633
from the tube,
to the transformer in like a C12.

740
00:32:33,633 --> 00:32:36,867
So for your mic designs, transformers
are a part of all your my designs.

741
00:32:38,051 --> 00:32:39,934
No, this is a transformer less.

742
00:32:39,934 --> 00:32:40,151
Yeah.

743
00:32:40,151 --> 00:32:42,518
I was like, actually, I was going to say
because there's two mics

744
00:32:42,518 --> 00:32:46,903
that I can think of like,
the, the 414 TL two,

745
00:32:46,903 --> 00:32:50,921
which is transformer less, I believe that
I believe is a standout Mike.

746
00:32:50,921 --> 00:32:53,938
And whatever they did
and the other AKG mic which is like

747
00:32:54,222 --> 00:32:58,957
I wish I still had it got stolen,
but I had a 460 B with AK1 capsule.

748
00:32:59,307 --> 00:33:00,574
Okay, that's transformer loss.

749
00:33:00,574 --> 00:33:03,875
And that fucking mic was great
and I don't know what it is about it.

750
00:33:03,891 --> 00:33:07,109
So not there as a mic.

751
00:33:07,109 --> 00:33:09,360
Like I think the Transformers.

752
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,210
Style two is they're very much more on
like the flatter

753
00:33:12,210 --> 00:33:15,211
like like 450 ones
and four 60s were very much like that.

754
00:33:15,361 --> 00:33:19,379
Also the 451 two this is from a 451 B ULS

755
00:33:19,663 --> 00:33:21,880
and this is from a TR2
that were made at the same time.

756
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,631
Oh I should flip this around. Notice
how different those are.

757
00:33:24,631 --> 00:33:26,281
Yeah. In the middle. Yeah. Yeah.

758
00:33:26,281 --> 00:33:30,699
So they were actually using which one
is the teal to the telltale to okay.

759
00:33:30,699 --> 00:33:32,383
It's a different back plate.

760
00:33:32,383 --> 00:33:37,268
It's a different acoustic
resistance piece that's more complex.

761
00:33:37,418 --> 00:33:40,602
That's actually a lot more like
the original K 12.

762
00:33:40,869 --> 00:33:43,653
So back to the diaphragm being the hinge.

763
00:33:43,653 --> 00:33:46,437
To the capsule
being the most important thing

764
00:33:46,437 --> 00:33:48,338
because Ulf is in tattoos now.

765
00:33:48,338 --> 00:33:50,071
The tattoos, there's also other reasons.

766
00:33:50,071 --> 00:33:51,822
Like you said, there's no transformer.

767
00:33:51,822 --> 00:33:57,507
But the capsule is different in a tattoo
than it is in the US.

768
00:33:57,507 --> 00:33:59,457
And most people
don't realize that it didn't work.

769
00:33:59,457 --> 00:34:01,741
I never knew that. Actually,
most people don't.

770
00:34:01,741 --> 00:34:04,842
There's the
this is, the only or triple O9.

771
00:34:04,842 --> 00:34:07,543
This is the Z0005 capsules from AKG.

772
00:34:07,543 --> 00:34:10,061
And then really the only. Difference
smaller is what is it?

773
00:34:10,061 --> 00:34:11,411
Because it looks like there's.

774
00:34:11,411 --> 00:34:13,978
This is just a piece of screen fine mesh.

775
00:34:13,978 --> 00:34:15,695
And that's the acoustic resistance.

776
00:34:15,695 --> 00:34:19,030
And this is an actual resistance
network made of brass I see.

777
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:19,897
Oh well yeah.

778
00:34:19,897 --> 00:34:22,714
Yep. Do you, what did you ever work on?

779
00:34:22,714 --> 00:34:23,381
Microtech.

780
00:34:23,381 --> 00:34:28,349
AFL and I haven't yet actually, believe it
or not, NFTs or Microtech waffles.

781
00:34:28,349 --> 00:34:31,450
No, I haven't, but,
I mean, I can I've done.

782
00:34:31,683 --> 00:34:35,251
I have somebody that's supposed to send me
a pair of, 70s from Microtech depot.

783
00:34:35,251 --> 00:34:37,919
They just have it. It's dealing
with musicians.

784
00:34:37,919 --> 00:34:40,686
Andrew, what's all that you have?
You have a really good sounding one. I've.

785
00:34:40,686 --> 00:34:41,736
I've got two of them.

786
00:34:41,736 --> 00:34:46,888
I've got the,
M 92.1 s, which is, got the,

787
00:34:46,888 --> 00:34:52,206
the F-86 chip and the M7 capsule,

788
00:34:53,140 --> 00:34:57,241
and I've got m 930,
which is Transformers, but it was just

789
00:34:57,241 --> 00:35:02,409
one of the, the, the 80 they produced
for the 80th anniversary of Norman.

790
00:35:02,892 --> 00:35:03,459
No. Wow.

791
00:35:03,459 --> 00:35:04,026
That's cool.

792
00:35:04,026 --> 00:35:05,977
So the other one is kind of a it's
kind of a

793
00:35:05,977 --> 00:35:09,094
you 67 ish thing,
but then it's got the M7 capsule.

794
00:35:09,094 --> 00:35:10,928
And so the K 67 is based.

795
00:35:10,928 --> 00:35:13,929
On the 57 I think it was it even 57

796
00:35:14,346 --> 00:35:18,030
that was built back in the late 50s,
probably as what was called the. 57.

797
00:35:18,180 --> 00:35:21,481
Yeah,
the 57 was kind of a, transitional model.

798
00:35:22,632 --> 00:35:23,882
Between the 67 and

799
00:35:23,882 --> 00:35:27,133
the eight or between the 47 and the 67.

800
00:35:27,633 --> 00:35:30,067
Maybe because models. Were no more.

801
00:35:30,067 --> 00:35:32,518
Particular
for that had the two Norman factories.

802
00:35:32,518 --> 00:35:37,202
So you had the original air factory left
Berlin, went to GFL during the war.

803
00:35:38,069 --> 00:35:41,437
Then George went back to Berlin
with Neumann.

804
00:35:41,437 --> 00:35:43,871
But they can't because of the wall.

805
00:35:43,871 --> 00:35:45,605
Cups. In East Germany.

806
00:35:45,605 --> 00:35:47,739
Microtech AFL,
which wasn't called magnetic.

807
00:35:47,739 --> 00:35:50,406
So back then it was some other name,
but it eventually became Microtech.

808
00:35:50,406 --> 00:35:53,407
AFL was actually still
the original Neumann,

809
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,741
and they still produced the M7 capsule

810
00:35:55,741 --> 00:35:58,775
on the original plant on the recently.

811
00:35:58,775 --> 00:35:59,642
Oh, all the way.

812
00:35:59,642 --> 00:36:03,177
Also, it's still the 50s after after the
yeah western.

813
00:36:03,177 --> 00:36:04,127
So yeah.

814
00:36:04,127 --> 00:36:07,178
If you find telephone can branded
you 40 sevens and stuff.

815
00:36:07,178 --> 00:36:09,829
That's because telephone
can never actually made a mike AKG a

816
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:12,246
Raymond made all their mics for it. Yeah.

817
00:36:12,246 --> 00:36:16,230
So you know a telephone can even now to
this day is just a name that's warranted.

818
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:20,915
And but I mean, one guy I know, it's
just come to work in television.

819
00:36:20,915 --> 00:36:22,299
Yeah, yeah.

820
00:36:22,299 --> 00:36:25,683
And there was a he sent me a telephone TV
while he's in Malaysia.

821
00:36:25,833 --> 00:36:28,651
And you can get a telephone,
can vacuum cleaner, a toaster in Israel.

822
00:36:28,651 --> 00:36:30,968
They tell like
it was kind of like RadioShack in a way.

823
00:36:30,968 --> 00:36:31,835
Yeah. Pretty much.

824
00:36:31,835 --> 00:36:32,769
Yeah, yeah.

825
00:36:32,769 --> 00:36:35,369
But the mics, you know what I mean?
I mean, I.

826
00:36:35,369 --> 00:36:37,303
I had RadioShack
mikes that were made by sure.

827
00:36:38,787 --> 00:36:41,621
That's, you know, the the
other really interesting thing is like,

828
00:36:41,621 --> 00:36:44,622
really early
microphones were made by Westinghouse.

829
00:36:44,739 --> 00:36:48,573
Yes. Well, Westinghouse was the first
makers of a condenser, along with, yeah.

830
00:36:48,873 --> 00:36:50,940
Or was it
you get a washing machine house or RCA.

831
00:36:50,940 --> 00:36:52,541
So if, you know.

832
00:36:52,541 --> 00:36:55,092
I believe it was just as Westinghouse.
Yeah.

833
00:36:55,092 --> 00:36:58,093
Like it was a giant box RCA.

834
00:36:58,209 --> 00:36:59,793
Like there's a national Panasonic.

835
00:36:59,793 --> 00:37:00,510
Like I said,

836
00:37:00,510 --> 00:37:03,928
I didn't know Panasonic made microphones
until this guy was like the Sony.

837
00:37:03,928 --> 00:37:04,561
Get into it.

838
00:37:04,561 --> 00:37:06,962
Sony was early, but I don't know.

839
00:37:06,962 --> 00:37:08,162
I don't know, to be honest with you.

840
00:37:08,162 --> 00:37:10,780
But they were they make
they still make some good ones, you know.

841
00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:12,213
Oh they definitely I think yeah.

842
00:37:12,213 --> 00:37:15,214
Yeah I think they got into it in the 60s
because I saw a really early,

843
00:37:16,081 --> 00:37:17,532
pretty shitty Love Boat, so.

844
00:37:17,532 --> 00:37:20,832
Well they made some, they made some good
to make some of those early Sony.

845
00:37:20,849 --> 00:37:23,950
Oh yeah. To see 37
is are pretty incredible.

846
00:37:24,117 --> 00:37:25,651
And I want to go back to.

847
00:37:25,651 --> 00:37:27,451
414 like Sony.

848
00:37:27,451 --> 00:37:29,535
Mike I think it was a 48.

849
00:37:29,535 --> 00:37:31,419
But it was also pretty decent.

850
00:37:31,419 --> 00:37:32,519
I forget the they.

851
00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:35,253
Have they had some cool esoteric models.

852
00:37:35,253 --> 00:37:36,787
George,
I want to go back to your question,

853
00:37:36,787 --> 00:37:38,221
because I do think there's
something important

854
00:37:38,221 --> 00:37:41,639
that I want to mention that I forgot about
what makes a microphone sound best.

855
00:37:42,189 --> 00:37:43,806
This is where it gets more philosophical.

856
00:37:43,806 --> 00:37:45,223
The singer.

857
00:37:45,223 --> 00:37:46,207
Exactly.

858
00:37:46,207 --> 00:37:48,307
Yeah. Wait, wait a spoil it, Robert.

859
00:37:48,307 --> 00:37:49,241
He looks like.

860
00:37:51,808 --> 00:37:53,592
No, it's absolutely the performance.

861
00:37:53,592 --> 00:37:57,793
Like, I as an engineer, I was taught very
early on, like, mediocre engineering.

862
00:37:57,793 --> 00:37:59,577
Can't ruin a fantastic performance.

863
00:37:59,577 --> 00:38:02,228
Like, if you listen to, the song War.

864
00:38:02,228 --> 00:38:02,411
Yeah.

865
00:38:02,411 --> 00:38:03,545
Oh, good God, yeah.

866
00:38:03,545 --> 00:38:05,829
That tambourine is putting an ice

867
00:38:05,829 --> 00:38:09,013
pick through your eardrums
on any modern system.

868
00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:14,015
And and Mazzy Stars fade into you is also,
like, super bright and harsh and grimy,

869
00:38:14,398 --> 00:38:19,199
and the songs and performances
were incredible, and it didn't matter.

870
00:38:19,416 --> 00:38:21,717
It's almost like that engineering becomes
part of it.

871
00:38:21,717 --> 00:38:25,118
I have a friend from New York
is, Jim Reeves.

872
00:38:25,118 --> 00:38:28,119
He was doing all these records
in New York in the 60s.

873
00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:31,903
It gets into the 70s and,
you know, modern equipment's coming out

874
00:38:32,103 --> 00:38:33,087
and digital comes out.

875
00:38:33,087 --> 00:38:36,754
So I meet him around the,
the like the late 80s, 90s, and he's

876
00:38:36,754 --> 00:38:40,656
talking about digital and he's like, oh,
the kids, they want analog.

877
00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:43,206
And I'm pretty sure
what they're all fascinated with

878
00:38:43,206 --> 00:38:46,324
is the sound of a tape deck
that hasn't been aligned in three weeks.

879
00:38:47,608 --> 00:38:49,141
Yeah, yeah.

880
00:38:49,141 --> 00:38:49,692
Possible.

881
00:38:49,692 --> 00:38:50,558
Well, I was going to say this.

882
00:38:50,558 --> 00:38:53,559
The singer
and the performance is king, obviously.

883
00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:53,826
Yeah.

884
00:38:53,826 --> 00:38:57,010
I was going to say the mic placement is
actually has such.

885
00:38:57,010 --> 00:39:00,211
I was just
that has a lot to do with it too.

886
00:39:00,211 --> 00:39:00,661
Absolutely.

887
00:39:00,661 --> 00:39:02,879
I think for voice over guys triple A.

888
00:39:02,879 --> 00:39:06,763
So I think I think you know with singers
you can get a particularly like on

889
00:39:06,763 --> 00:39:07,113
this mic.

890
00:39:07,113 --> 00:39:07,780
I can go to a wide

891
00:39:07,780 --> 00:39:10,931
cardioid on the on the V 14
and I can get away with a lot of things.

892
00:39:11,164 --> 00:39:13,082
But like a lot of you guys
use four sixteens

893
00:39:13,082 --> 00:39:16,566
because the whole Ernie Anderson thing
because you move a centimeter.

894
00:39:16,566 --> 00:39:18,066
41 six, thank you very much.

895
00:39:18,066 --> 00:39:19,767
I know that's. Right.

896
00:39:19,767 --> 00:39:21,334
41 six apologies.

897
00:39:21,334 --> 00:39:25,302
But it's the proximity
that it's it's not just like placement

898
00:39:25,302 --> 00:39:28,169
but it's like technique
and how to play the mic.

899
00:39:28,169 --> 00:39:28,419
Well.

900
00:39:28,419 --> 00:39:32,287
And voiceover guys have to do that
so carefully on a 416 that I think

901
00:39:32,287 --> 00:39:33,571
they get really good at it.

902
00:39:33,571 --> 00:39:34,421
Yeah, yeah.

903
00:39:34,421 --> 00:39:36,222
Well they I suck at it too.

904
00:39:36,222 --> 00:39:37,689
I ever play. Exactly.

905
00:39:37,689 --> 00:39:41,557
Yeah I've seen Mike placement
because they had somebody sitting up here

906
00:39:41,557 --> 00:39:45,041
and then they sometimes
it's pointing down like this off chest.

907
00:39:45,041 --> 00:39:46,391
Yeah. Like that sounds terrible.

908
00:39:46,391 --> 00:39:50,459
I've seen a guy point the mic up
and up above his head like this.

909
00:39:50,576 --> 00:39:51,693
No no no.

910
00:39:51,693 --> 00:39:54,460
Placement is extremely,
extremely on target.

911
00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:55,927
Placement. So important.

912
00:39:55,927 --> 00:39:58,862
And I mean, I tell people
all the time, they put up a mic

913
00:39:58,862 --> 00:40:01,562
and they've got the capsule
pointing at their nose.

914
00:40:01,562 --> 00:40:02,713
I'm like, oh, that's why

915
00:40:02,713 --> 00:40:07,031
part of why your take sounds nasally,
like my voice is super nasally by nature.

916
00:40:07,497 --> 00:40:08,081
But if I'm.

917
00:40:08,081 --> 00:40:10,082
250 to 500 or something like that.

918
00:40:10,082 --> 00:40:13,032
Yeah, if I'm doing this, I'm
suddenly hearing a lot more of my know it.

919
00:40:13,032 --> 00:40:14,133
My nose. Yeah.

920
00:40:14,133 --> 00:40:16,850
As opposed to this, which is my chest
in my throat. My God forbid,

921
00:40:16,850 --> 00:40:20,468
you're doing a rap performance
and they have their hand like this.

922
00:40:21,151 --> 00:40:21,602
Oh. They.

923
00:40:23,469 --> 00:40:23,952
And right.

924
00:40:23,952 --> 00:40:26,020
It makes sure it makes your mike an omni.

925
00:40:26,020 --> 00:40:28,270
Like if you go around the fence.

926
00:40:28,270 --> 00:40:29,704
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

927
00:40:29,704 --> 00:40:32,888
I tell you what's really what's
interesting is using this microphone.

928
00:40:33,372 --> 00:40:33,972
What is this?

929
00:40:33,972 --> 00:40:36,306
The Austrian audio,
CC eight. It's a pain.

930
00:40:36,306 --> 00:40:36,573
Okay.

931
00:40:36,573 --> 00:40:39,573
Yeah, it's it's got ACK1 style
capsule in it.

932
00:40:39,807 --> 00:40:42,541
You've got to be really careful

933
00:40:42,541 --> 00:40:44,592
with this thing.

934
00:40:44,592 --> 00:40:45,942
They're sensitive about it.

935
00:40:45,942 --> 00:40:47,642
Well, it's it's all. About where you. Are.

936
00:40:47,642 --> 00:40:49,660
And it captures points to the front two.
Right.

937
00:40:49,660 --> 00:40:50,977
It's not all the captions

938
00:40:50,977 --> 00:40:54,428
like it's not right down in the barrel
like a 41 six or something.

939
00:40:54,611 --> 00:40:56,078
But I had a quick question.

940
00:40:56,078 --> 00:40:58,079
I wanted to take you back
a couple of minutes ago.

941
00:40:58,079 --> 00:41:01,413
You were talking about EQ inside the mic.

942
00:41:01,830 --> 00:41:02,130
Yeah.

943
00:41:02,130 --> 00:41:06,298
When you if if you're designing a mic then
and you and you're setting up that EQ,

944
00:41:06,331 --> 00:41:10,682
are you trying to get rid of nuances
you don't want there?

945
00:41:10,682 --> 00:41:15,184
Or if you got a specific sound for that
mic in mind, is it a combination of both?

946
00:41:15,184 --> 00:41:18,301
How how do you make decisions
on how you're going to echo.

947
00:41:18,368 --> 00:41:20,352
Or you just trying to flatten
the curve out?

948
00:41:20,352 --> 00:41:23,319
It's not necessarily
a flat curve is not necessarily

949
00:41:23,319 --> 00:41:24,553
what you want out of a microphone.

950
00:41:24,553 --> 00:41:26,320
Go look at a 251 curve.

951
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,021
It is the un flattest thing.

952
00:41:28,021 --> 00:41:30,772
They roll it off
at like 300Hz on the early ones.

953
00:41:30,772 --> 00:41:33,956
Because that transformer was so tiny
that they didn't want a saturated

954
00:41:33,989 --> 00:41:35,856
low frequency saturate transformers.

955
00:41:35,856 --> 00:41:38,791
So they had this little T14 transformer
in there

956
00:41:38,791 --> 00:41:41,942
and, they rolled it off
artificially on the 251.

957
00:41:41,942 --> 00:41:43,775
But it's one of the best
vocal mikes of all time.

958
00:41:43,775 --> 00:41:45,543
And it's not a flat like at all. Right.

959
00:41:45,543 --> 00:41:51,094
Like what it's more about to answer
your question rather, is, I think that

960
00:41:52,361 --> 00:41:54,462
for me, it's more of a flow thing.

961
00:41:54,462 --> 00:41:57,213
I will take four of a prototype
into a studio

962
00:41:57,213 --> 00:42:00,180
and put it up against the best
mics that they have on a real session,

963
00:42:00,180 --> 00:42:03,298
and I will have one component position
or one capsule

964
00:42:03,298 --> 00:42:06,299
voicing or whatever, just one variable
in that, slightly different.

965
00:42:06,932 --> 00:42:10,116
And then I go, okay,
I like this one the best and here's why

966
00:42:10,116 --> 00:42:12,150
I like it
the best on this variety of sources.

967
00:42:12,150 --> 00:42:15,151
Or maybe it's just a vocal
or just drums that day or whatever,

968
00:42:15,218 --> 00:42:17,735
but it gives me
an idea of where to go next.

969
00:42:17,735 --> 00:42:19,152
And it's it's sort of building the plane.

970
00:42:19,152 --> 00:42:21,853
As you fly, you start with a good capsule
that's really important.

971
00:42:21,853 --> 00:42:24,837
And we've we've gotten a good capsule
and we're really happy with it.

972
00:42:24,871 --> 00:42:25,738
But then from there

973
00:42:25,738 --> 00:42:27,538
you have to make
all these micro adjustments,

974
00:42:27,538 --> 00:42:30,522
and some of those things
are making a 1 or 2% difference.

975
00:42:30,522 --> 00:42:31,956
But it's like compound interest, right?

976
00:42:31,956 --> 00:42:35,190
If I make 20 changes
that make a 2% difference.

977
00:42:35,707 --> 00:42:39,158
I'm it's I'm, it's the baby of EQ

978
00:42:39,191 --> 00:42:43,093
when you're mastering and then you
pop the EQ out and you're like, Holy cow.

979
00:42:43,093 --> 00:42:44,793
But I only did a few.

980
00:42:44,793 --> 00:42:46,594
Yeah, bunch of one DB changes.

981
00:42:46,594 --> 00:42:48,928
And I did a LinkedIn post on that
the other day.

982
00:42:48,928 --> 00:42:51,812
A good mix isn't about handfuls
of of one thing.

983
00:42:51,812 --> 00:42:53,679
It's about lots of minute changes.

984
00:42:53,679 --> 00:42:56,130
That's that's yeah, it's subtlety.

985
00:42:56,130 --> 00:42:57,363
Right. And totally.

986
00:42:57,363 --> 00:43:00,964
And some of that is like
for instance on on the V 14,

987
00:43:01,331 --> 00:43:05,632
we like to mix because they have total
harmonic distortion if you tune it to mic

988
00:43:05,649 --> 00:43:10,451
that like to a perfect,
to a perfect bias with a really good tube,

989
00:43:10,901 --> 00:43:12,401
a lot of the time
it sounds like a fat mic,

990
00:43:12,401 --> 00:43:14,552
and that's not what we want
out of a two mic. We want that.

991
00:43:14,552 --> 00:43:16,536
We want that thing
that's imperfect, right?

992
00:43:16,536 --> 00:43:18,403
Like,
yeah, you've heard the. Using a particular

993
00:43:18,403 --> 00:43:21,304
it's the second harmonic distortion
that tubes tend to distort.

994
00:43:21,304 --> 00:43:23,821
Even harmonics.
Yeah. Yeah. Even order harmonics.

995
00:43:23,821 --> 00:43:26,255
And that's a really important
distinction.

996
00:43:26,255 --> 00:43:27,189
You're absolutely right.

997
00:43:27,189 --> 00:43:28,539
Guitarists are really about that.

998
00:43:28,539 --> 00:43:29,939
So when you're trying that mic over

999
00:43:29,939 --> 00:43:33,741
multiple sources, are you favoring the mic
that sounds the best overall?

1000
00:43:33,757 --> 00:43:35,158
Many different sources.

1001
00:43:35,158 --> 00:43:36,908
In general,
when you're designing your mics.

1002
00:43:38,342 --> 00:43:40,859
I try and I try and favor it that way.

1003
00:43:40,859 --> 00:43:45,361
I end up leaning that way because of,
you know, being a poor audio engineer

1004
00:43:45,361 --> 00:43:46,061
and not being able.

1005
00:43:46,061 --> 00:43:48,245
I was in college in America.

1006
00:43:48,245 --> 00:43:49,328
I was in enough debt. Right.

1007
00:43:49,328 --> 00:43:54,397
So I had to, either pick a $99 mic
I had to beat to death with in the mix

1008
00:43:54,397 --> 00:43:59,098
to get any use out of or, you know, spend
five grand, sell a kidney, what have you.

1009
00:43:59,281 --> 00:44:02,766
And I didn't really, you know, I,
I went with the cheap option.

1010
00:44:02,766 --> 00:44:03,066
Right.

1011
00:44:03,066 --> 00:44:08,367
And so, for me having a mic
that's versatile, having a mic

1012
00:44:08,367 --> 00:44:10,768
that was versatile was really important
when I was in engineering.

1013
00:44:10,768 --> 00:44:14,452
And I think that's kind of translated
in some ways to the way I designed you.

1014
00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:17,703
I don't I don't think people
realize, but when we started

1015
00:44:18,820 --> 00:44:22,271
any large diaphragm mic was like $1,000.

1016
00:44:22,271 --> 00:44:23,622
You couldn't turn. More. Yeah.

1017
00:44:23,622 --> 00:44:25,889
And it wasn't until China pops out with,

1018
00:44:25,889 --> 00:44:29,740
I think Marshall or whoever,
like the 979 factory.

1019
00:44:29,790 --> 00:44:32,141
A797, eight seven state run factory.

1020
00:44:32,141 --> 00:44:34,025
That's why it's got a number.
It's a state. Factory.

1021
00:44:34,025 --> 00:44:35,859
And all of a sudden
they're just banging out

1022
00:44:35,859 --> 00:44:38,593
these hundred dollar mikes
that were noisier.

1023
00:44:38,593 --> 00:44:40,743
But man, they were so like,

1024
00:44:40,743 --> 00:44:45,461
they had all the characteristics of a
of a large diaphragm like, well, and.

1025
00:44:45,461 --> 00:44:48,629
Other people were going
like they were coming from an SM 58.

1026
00:44:49,062 --> 00:44:49,329
Yeah.

1027
00:44:49,329 --> 00:44:52,047
If you come to it from an S,
I'm 58 to the shittiest.

1028
00:44:52,047 --> 00:44:53,847
Am I allowed to sway on this? Yes.

1029
00:44:53,847 --> 00:44:57,482
Every time that possible as possible.

1030
00:44:57,565 --> 00:45:00,349
Mql you know like early 90s. It makes.

1031
00:45:00,349 --> 00:45:01,833
Sense. Destroys it. Yeah. Yeah.

1032
00:45:01,833 --> 00:45:03,483
That has a fingerprint or whatever on it.

1033
00:45:03,483 --> 00:45:08,051
It still sounds way better at first
because you've got so much more high

1034
00:45:08,051 --> 00:45:11,586
frequency content, so much more transient
detail from a high dynamic.

1035
00:45:11,586 --> 00:45:13,953
Can't do what a condenser
does. It's just too much mass.

1036
00:45:13,953 --> 00:45:17,737
It was it was like the
the eight moment of microphones.

1037
00:45:17,854 --> 00:45:19,538
Yeah, yeah, in a lot of ways.

1038
00:45:19,538 --> 00:45:22,656
And I mean, I remember
people would buy ten of those mics.

1039
00:45:22,656 --> 00:45:23,739
They picked the one they liked the best

1040
00:45:23,739 --> 00:45:25,290
because they all sounded
remarkably different.

1041
00:45:25,290 --> 00:45:29,307
They were they were using a drill press
and a template to do the capsule

1042
00:45:29,407 --> 00:45:32,942
back plates
early on before they got CNC machining.

1043
00:45:33,059 --> 00:45:34,142
They were doing it by hand.

1044
00:45:34,142 --> 00:45:37,743
So they were vastly and like a fraction
of a millimeter makes a huge difference.

1045
00:45:37,927 --> 00:45:40,361
So, yeah, vastly different.

1046
00:45:41,528 --> 00:45:43,962
That's the Elise is a dot, not the Mach-E.

1047
00:45:43,962 --> 00:45:44,679
Just if you're.

1048
00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:46,979
Yes, it was the Mackie eight bucks.

1049
00:45:46,979 --> 00:45:51,481
Plus the Elise is a that a sudden gave
everybody a 24 track studio.

1050
00:45:51,481 --> 00:45:52,531
Exactly. Yeah.

1051
00:45:52,531 --> 00:45:55,298
It was like what just destroyed
the studio market.

1052
00:45:55,298 --> 00:45:58,116
Would you like to hear my favorite story
about the eight app from somebody

1053
00:45:58,116 --> 00:45:59,533
who worked at Elisa's at the time?

1054
00:45:59,533 --> 00:46:00,450
Oh yeah.

1055
00:46:00,450 --> 00:46:03,217
So they were hyping up
the eight at before Nam.

1056
00:46:03,217 --> 00:46:04,601
They were like,
this is going to be a big deal.

1057
00:46:04,601 --> 00:46:05,885
It's going to revolutionize music.

1058
00:46:05,885 --> 00:46:08,402
It's going to make it more accessible,
yada yada.

1059
00:46:08,402 --> 00:46:11,203
And at the show,
they could not get this machine to work.

1060
00:46:11,203 --> 00:46:13,537
Well, no,
they were panicking. For a while.

1061
00:46:13,537 --> 00:46:18,238
So what they did is they had them come in
and they had a tape machine

1062
00:46:18,238 --> 00:46:22,023
behind the curtain rolling tape,
and the buttons

1063
00:46:22,056 --> 00:46:26,041
on the front of the machine were wired
up to the tape machine like.

1064
00:46:26,191 --> 00:46:30,842
Oh my God, I can't go back.

1065
00:46:30,875 --> 00:46:33,909
And this is from somebody
who worked at AKG, mind you,

1066
00:46:33,943 --> 00:46:37,210
like, this is a this is a primary source
that was there for this.

1067
00:46:37,511 --> 00:46:41,795
They back then Nam was like the way
you got gear out, right?

1068
00:46:41,795 --> 00:46:43,079
This was pre-Internet

1069
00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:45,546
and they were like,
oh God, if this isn't working at the show,

1070
00:46:45,546 --> 00:46:47,764
like all our work
this year has been for nothing.

1071
00:46:47,764 --> 00:46:50,831
So they made a marketing decision
that sounds just like tape.

1072
00:46:51,098 --> 00:46:52,148
Guys. It is.

1073
00:46:53,398 --> 00:46:54,482
And it did not.

1074
00:46:54,482 --> 00:46:55,332
But hey.

1075
00:46:55,332 --> 00:46:57,633
Yeah, and here's a. Really funny one.

1076
00:46:57,633 --> 00:47:00,634
Not even kidding, that is. But insane.

1077
00:47:01,017 --> 00:47:01,951
That is insane.

1078
00:47:01,951 --> 00:47:06,302
I was I was at a studio
I worked at, had big socketed,

1079
00:47:06,302 --> 00:47:11,187
Journal X, and they were having a problem
with one of the speakers.

1080
00:47:11,770 --> 00:47:15,188
And so they had the speaker out
for like a week, and supposedly

1081
00:47:15,188 --> 00:47:18,189
they got the speaker back in,
but they played this practical joke on me.

1082
00:47:18,422 --> 00:47:19,439
And so they walked in there like,

1083
00:47:19,439 --> 00:47:21,640
we got the speaker back,
but it's not sounding the same.

1084
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,157
And they had two tracks in ProTools,
one on the left, one on the right.

1085
00:47:24,157 --> 00:47:25,841
Looks like the same audio file.

1086
00:47:25,841 --> 00:47:28,359
And they're like, look, I play this one
and it sounds like this,

1087
00:47:28,359 --> 00:47:30,359
and I play that one
and it sounds like that.

1088
00:47:30,359 --> 00:47:32,060
And I was like, yeah, that is different.
What's going on?

1089
00:47:32,060 --> 00:47:35,561
And I at some point I go in, I'm like,
let me sit at ProTools.

1090
00:47:35,561 --> 00:47:36,211
That can't be.

1091
00:47:36,211 --> 00:47:39,845
And I started hitting play and I'm
trying to figure out what's going on.

1092
00:47:39,845 --> 00:47:44,913
And I start to notice that, like,
I think ProTools is delayed or something.

1093
00:47:45,147 --> 00:47:47,698
And right at that point when I'm like,
I think there's something wrong

1094
00:47:47,698 --> 00:47:51,515
with ProTools here, the assistant engineer
pops out of the soffit.

1095
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:57,784
That's pretty good.

1096
00:47:57,784 --> 00:48:02,252
But he was following my playbacks
like pretty close because I just didn't

1097
00:48:02,252 --> 00:48:02,802
catch it.

1098
00:48:02,802 --> 00:48:05,953
Yeah, every I'd hit play, I'd be like,
this is the right miking.

1099
00:48:07,053 --> 00:48:07,920
And then you start saying, I'm.

1100
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,171
Never gonna give you up.

1101
00:48:10,171 --> 00:48:13,172
I'll let you down.

1102
00:48:14,072 --> 00:48:15,322
Oh. Man.

1103
00:48:15,322 --> 00:48:18,757
What are the microphone questions that
are more accessible to to your audience?

1104
00:48:19,207 --> 00:48:23,158
I've got because me and me and Robert
could probably nerd out this entire.

1105
00:48:23,158 --> 00:48:24,325
Yeah.

1106
00:48:24,325 --> 00:48:24,992
Not probably.

1107
00:48:24,992 --> 00:48:27,993
You are.

1108
00:48:28,776 --> 00:48:30,777
I want to I just want to step you back.

1109
00:48:30,777 --> 00:48:34,745
Just back to to the mic creation thing
again, because it's got me fascinated.

1110
00:48:34,745 --> 00:48:38,812
So, and, and I'm interested to know
then if you're putting 3

1111
00:48:38,812 --> 00:48:42,147
or 4 mikes up in a room
and listening to each one,

1112
00:48:43,330 --> 00:48:46,831
are you as a source
for those when you're listening to them?

1113
00:48:46,831 --> 00:48:50,649
Are you using something that you imagine
that that might will be used

1114
00:48:50,649 --> 00:48:51,583
for, like hat like,

1115
00:48:51,583 --> 00:48:54,850
what are you using as a source to listen
to, to make these decisions?

1116
00:48:55,300 --> 00:48:56,284
Well, a lot of the time.

1117
00:48:56,284 --> 00:49:00,219
So like when we're doing development for,
you know, days at a time,

1118
00:49:00,219 --> 00:49:03,553
I'll be in the studio
with one guitar and one voice

1119
00:49:03,553 --> 00:49:06,720
and be working with that,
and it's my voice and my guitar.

1120
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,455
So you can imagine
I don't ever release those tracks.

1121
00:49:09,455 --> 00:49:09,721
Okay.

1122
00:49:09,721 --> 00:49:16,207
But, but, then I take it into studios
for real world use, and it's, you know,

1123
00:49:16,657 --> 00:49:19,441
when I was living in L.A., I'd be like,
okay, my buddy

1124
00:49:19,441 --> 00:49:22,442
Cesar is having this big session
with this big artist,

1125
00:49:22,442 --> 00:49:25,409
and I just going to take it in
and see if I can throw it up

1126
00:49:25,409 --> 00:49:27,426
on that session on whatever. Right.

1127
00:49:27,426 --> 00:49:29,560
Because he's doing the set up
well beforehand.

1128
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,378
So it might be on the drum overheads

1129
00:49:31,378 --> 00:49:33,362
that time around,
and then it might be guitar amps.

1130
00:49:33,362 --> 00:49:36,129
And other times it's like carrying it.
Around all different places. Yeah.

1131
00:49:36,129 --> 00:49:37,663
And that gives you a much better,

1132
00:49:37,663 --> 00:49:41,047
I think overall picture of what
the mic strengths and weaknesses are.

1133
00:49:41,547 --> 00:49:43,231
But to

1134
00:49:43,231 --> 00:49:46,565
I think it gives you a better overall
picture because different different piano

1135
00:49:46,682 --> 00:49:48,182
even like going between two pianos

1136
00:49:48,182 --> 00:49:50,133
you're going to get different
harmonic content, right?

1137
00:49:50,133 --> 00:49:55,385
So like, it's just to me,
getting an overall picture is not just,

1138
00:49:55,385 --> 00:49:58,919
you know, it's not the person at Nam
leaning in and going, one, two, one, two.

1139
00:49:58,919 --> 00:50:01,203
Yeah,
this sounds really good. Or jangling.

1140
00:50:01,203 --> 00:50:03,870
Is that. Means absolutely nothing. Right.

1141
00:50:03,870 --> 00:50:08,072
And you have to get and and it's funny
now when I hear my mike in a shootout,

1142
00:50:08,072 --> 00:50:09,872
a lot of the times, even having

1143
00:50:09,872 --> 00:50:12,990
never heard the instrument on its own,
I can pick my mic out of the crowd

1144
00:50:12,990 --> 00:50:16,924
just because that sonic fingerprint,
having listened to thousands of these,

1145
00:50:17,341 --> 00:50:20,042
has just permanently

1146
00:50:20,042 --> 00:50:24,010
embedded itself in my auditory cortex
at this point.

1147
00:50:24,010 --> 00:50:24,393
Yeah.

1148
00:50:24,393 --> 00:50:27,477
And I can be like, that's
probably the V 13 out of these four mikes.

1149
00:50:27,477 --> 00:50:30,061
And 90% of the time I'm right.

1150
00:50:30,061 --> 00:50:32,579
I always think
it's like you have to get to know them.

1151
00:50:32,579 --> 00:50:34,929
And it's like, you can't just get to know
Mike in one session.

1152
00:50:34,929 --> 00:50:37,880
You have to, play with it
and use it in different situations,

1153
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,231
get a feel for how they react
and it takes time.

1154
00:50:41,231 --> 00:50:42,098
I will say this

1155
00:50:42,098 --> 00:50:45,149
I know you don't like to compare mikes
because they are really their own design

1156
00:50:45,149 --> 00:50:48,900
and they're unique, but I had a situation
where we got to hear it.

1157
00:50:49,017 --> 00:50:52,018
I got to hear it
in context alongside a you 67.

1158
00:50:52,518 --> 00:50:55,652
And David case plays case.

1159
00:50:55,685 --> 00:50:55,985
Yeah.

1160
00:50:55,985 --> 00:51:00,153
And I have to say
the V 13 was a hell of a good stand in.

1161
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,588
When the 67 went out for service, it was.

1162
00:51:04,588 --> 00:51:06,038
67 is a little darker.

1163
00:51:06,038 --> 00:51:09,239
And the V 13 definitely
has the top end roll off.

1164
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:10,790
I don't like a strident mike.

1165
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:14,858
And once again, that's the Mike
philosophy, the Mike designer's

1166
00:51:14,858 --> 00:51:18,392
philosophy about sound like Dave Royer
the the Mojave.

1167
00:51:18,392 --> 00:51:20,976
Mike's designs are great mikes.
They're also way too bright for me.

1168
00:51:20,976 --> 00:51:23,910
Right. And people love the Mojave.
That doesn't mean they're bad. Mike's.

1169
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:26,228
It just means that Dave has an idea
about what audio is.

1170
00:51:26,228 --> 00:51:29,228
That's different

1171
00:51:34,263 --> 00:51:35,063
Well, that was fun.

1172
00:51:35,063 --> 00:51:37,047
Is it over?

1173
00:51:37,047 --> 00:51:38,548
The audio. Sweet.

1174
00:51:38,548 --> 00:51:42,932
Thanks to tribal and Austrian audio
recorded using Sonos Connect.

1175
00:51:43,016 --> 00:51:47,767
Edited by Andrew Peters and mixed by
Bhutan Radio Imaging with tech support.

1176
00:51:47,767 --> 00:51:50,935
If you wish to check with them, don't
forget to subscribe to the show

1177
00:51:50,935 --> 00:51:54,202
and join the conversation
on our Facebook group to leave a comment.

1178
00:51:54,302 --> 00:51:56,486
Suggest a topic or just say goodbye.

1179
00:51:56,486 --> 00:51:58,103
Drop us a note at our website.

1180
00:51:58,103 --> 00:51:59,854
Protea suite.com.