Outboard Gear: Investment or Indulgence?

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Y'all ready to be history?

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Get started.

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Welcome.

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Hi.

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Hi.

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Hi.

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Hello, everyone.

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To the Pro Audio Suite.

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These guys are professional, they're motivated.

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With Tech the VO stars, George Witton, founder

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of Source Elements, Robert Marshall, international audio engineer,

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Darren Robbo-Robertson, and global voice, Andrew Peters.

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Thanks to Triboo, Austrian Audio, Making Passion Heard,

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and AP's international demos.

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To find out more about us, check theproaudiosuite

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Line up, man.

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Here we go.

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And welcome to another Pro Audio Suite.

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Don't forget the code, TRIPAP200, to get $200

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Heard.

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Today's topic, I'm going to steal this one,

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and I will give credit to Bobby Yosinski,

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his podcast, The Inner Circle.

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He's doing an interview, and one of the

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subjects sort of jumped out at me, and

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I thought, that's interesting.

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Being a person who holds a lot of

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expensive outboard gear, and I know Robert has

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the same habit, is it worth hanging on

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to, and will it go up in value?

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And is it better than plugins?

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That is my question I pose to you.

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I think you've got to frame it by

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whose point of view.

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From a studio owner's point of view, or

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commercial studio owner's point of view, from a

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voice actor's point of view, and from just

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like a sheer collector's point of view.

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From a hoarder's point of view.

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I think, well, there's a few different points

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of view.

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I mean, if I was to sell my

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stuff, then I'd probably end up selling it

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to a commercial studio, I'm guessing, because a

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voice over talent's not going to buy the

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stuff I've got in here.

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But a music studio, I may.

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Right.

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So, what we're banking on, is there going

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to be more commercial grade music studios vying

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for this less and less common gear.

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It's harder to get.

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That would drive up the price.

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Because, I mean, the thing is, a lot

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of the stuff you buy now, there's so

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many clones of all this classic gear.

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Purple, and warm, and there's all these companies,

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right?

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But don't you reckon there's something tactile about

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turning a knob, you know, or adjusting it?

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Yeah, but you can get that with a

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clone of the new stuff, as the old

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stuff.

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Not even a digital clone, but an actual

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analog clone.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You can get that.

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And some of that kind of holds its

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value, probably.

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But the original LA-2As, and the original

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1176s, those go way up in value.

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I had an original Tube Screamer pedal that

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was stolen from me.

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And those things are like $1,000, and

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I have a reissue now of a Tube

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Screamer, and I don't know if it sounds

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different or not.

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So somebody out there, those pedals are worth

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a lot more when they're the original one,

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that they don't make anymore, that has the

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what-have-you chip in it, that you

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can't get anymore.

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So I don't know that a lot of

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that stuff really makes such a huge difference

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in sound, to be honest.

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Like a purple 1176 is still a really

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great compressor, as an original 1176.

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But there's definitely a lot of cachet.

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Yeah, it's like microphones, really.

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I mean, you know, a classic E47, you're

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going to be paying like $25,000 for

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it, or a U67 for sure.

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So, you know, I mean, I'm guessing it's

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going to be the same with Outboard.

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If you had a 2254, an original square

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2254, that would be worth a fortune.

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Probably like $10,000 or something, or more,

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I don't know.

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So a lot of people are getting used

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to, this was the interesting part, it's like

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you get a reference.

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So if you started as an intern in

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a studio, and you worked your way up

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in a proper commercial studio, you have a

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reference in your head, you know, the sound

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of the real stuff.

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So when you hear a clone, you know,

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unless it's a very good clone, you'll pick

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it, you'll pick the difference.

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But a lot of people are kicking off

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their careers in bedrooms, so they have no

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reference of what this stuff sounds like.

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I mean, let's just take something we're looking

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at.

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How close is that 737 plug-in to

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those units behind you?

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Oh, right here?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's pretty close, because I've, you know, the

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reason I have some to get rid of

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is we've been replacing them with the virtual

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plug-in.

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And in this particular case, in my opinion,

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the 737 preamps being class A, they're very,

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very clean.

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I mean, they really have no character to

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them.

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They don't have transformers, and they just have

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a really clean sound.

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So in my opinion, they're really easy to

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replace, because they don't really have much sound,

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character to them, not like a Neve or

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something.

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So in my opinion, it's very easy to

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replace them.

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Now we've used the plug-ins, and we

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did some extensive testing with one of my

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clients, obsessively so.

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We did hear a difference between his particular

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Avalon 737 and the plug-in we were

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using, that it was an EQ thing.

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I found a little frequency that I...

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Is it better or worse, or just different,

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you know?

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It wasn't a better or worse thing, it

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was just not exactly identical.

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There was something in the mids, like in

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the 2k-ish, where somewhere that wasn't exactly

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the same, and we bumped one up a

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dB or two.

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I mean, it was similar.

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It was really, really similar.

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I think a better comparison could be maybe,

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and I don't have one, of course, but

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a Manley VoxBox to the VoxBox plug-in.

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If someone wants to buy me the Manley

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VariMu, I've got a VariMu.

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You have a VariMu?

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I have a VariMu, yeah.

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Oh, wow.

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Do they still make those?

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I think so.

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Okay.

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So what's the concept behind a VariMu?

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The compression style, it's like, I forget exactly,

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but it's like, you know, instead of an

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optical, it's a variable Mu, which I would

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have to AI it to re-remember.

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You have to Google that one.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, speaking of AI, I used

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an AI, and I put into the system,

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here, has the value of used vintage audio

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recording equipment increased at a rate that outpaces

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inflation?

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Well, the first piece of data it gave

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me was about new audio gear, and that

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clearly is a different story.

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It says it has deflated sharply since 1977.

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So, you know, the equivalent of a $20

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to, is about, $20 with a gear in

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77 would now be $5.80 worth.

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Like if you're going to go buy a

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receiver, right?

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There's just, they've devalued because they've gotten so

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much cheaper to produce.

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But let's talk about vintage gear, and again,

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it's doing a comparison here of consumer stuff,

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not pro.

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Yeah.

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I want to mention a Sansui G9000.

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It has doubled in value in two years,

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while some Marantz units are escalating rapidly also.

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But others have noted that things like the

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1178, it says, 1178.

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1178?

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Yeah, that's- It might be, I mean,

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that's a home stereo amp, or the-

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No, now it's going into pro audio, and

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I think it's starting to hallucinate, because the

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model numbers are 1178LA2A and CL1B.

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Anybody know what a CL1B is?

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The CL1B is a modern re-create of

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a Tubetech, I mean, is a Tubetech re

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-create of a Pultec- Yeah, so these

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model numbers are a little bit word-synced.

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I think, or CL1B is known as a

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compressor.

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So- It's a Tubetech compressor though.

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So a community member notes that reissues and

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vintage models from a rate, they climbed from

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2,200 to 2,700 and over 3

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,000 during the pandemic era.

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Certain brands from the 1670s continue to go

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up in price because of reputation and looks.

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They're going up roughly the same rate as

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the stock market, says somebody on Gearspace.

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Oh, wow, okay.

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Well, here's one I can tell you, I've

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got a Neve 1073 DPA.

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I bought it probably 10 years ago, I

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guess.

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I think I paid $2,000 for it.

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I've just seen the used one on eBay

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for 4,000.

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Wow, so 10 years ago, you doubled your

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money.

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If you could sell it for that.

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I always search for closed or completed sales

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because there's a lot of like, I'll put

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it, there's a lot of stuff on eBay

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that is the wife has been nagging me

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to sell this shit for years.

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So I'll put it up on eBay for

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aspirational price and just let it sit there

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for five years so that she doesn't nag

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me about it.

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Honey, it's on eBay.

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I'll tell you one that I did actually

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do really well on.

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I bought a Neve eight channel mixer from

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the 80s right after like Rupert left.

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So it's like, and I bought that thing

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for five grand and I think it's 15

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,000 now.

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Some people try to get 15,000 for

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it now.

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I don't know if they're getting it though

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again.

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I think it has to be really venerable.

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The stuff, the more it's knocked off, the

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more it's probably worth.

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Wouldn't you say?

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Yeah.

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So this one's not knocked off a lot.

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And if anything, it's knocked on like, you

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know, all the Neve snobs were like, that's

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not a Neve because Neve wasn't there when

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Neve made that.

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Oh, I see.

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That's a John Pope.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:26,640
Yeah.

271
00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:27,100
You know.

272
00:09:27,580 --> 00:09:29,220
What model is the one you're talking about,

273
00:09:29,500 --> 00:09:29,740
AP?

274
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,080
The 1073 DPA, which is IMS Neve.

275
00:09:35,660 --> 00:09:38,860
But if your 1073 was an original 1073,

276
00:09:39,180 --> 00:09:42,220
it'd be like fricking $10,000 more.

277
00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:43,240
Yeah.

278
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:43,420
Yeah.

279
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:43,860
In the States.

280
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,480
Because yours is an actual Neve recreate, but

281
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:47,260
it is a Neve.

282
00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:47,780
Yeah.

283
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:48,840
It's legit.

284
00:09:48,940 --> 00:09:49,940
It's not like a heritage.

285
00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:51,640
Oh, it's basically like Neumann.

286
00:09:52,340 --> 00:09:53,560
It's a circuit match, right?

287
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:54,980
It's an exact circuit match.

288
00:09:55,460 --> 00:09:58,660
Well, as much as Neve can match it.

289
00:09:58,680 --> 00:09:59,760
A brand new one in the U.S.

290
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,380
right now is 2743.

291
00:10:02,180 --> 00:10:02,560
Yeah.

292
00:10:03,060 --> 00:10:04,340
So that's 540s.

293
00:10:04,340 --> 00:10:06,900
With the exchange rate up there, close to

294
00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:07,420
4,200.

295
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:07,900
Yeah.

296
00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:08,860
Which is about the same.

297
00:10:09,100 --> 00:10:10,740
What are Verimuse going for?

298
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:12,380
I don't know.

299
00:10:13,060 --> 00:10:13,900
I'm on Reverb.

300
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,100
You guys use Reverb down under?

301
00:10:16,580 --> 00:10:18,420
I've bought a lot of stuff off Reverb.

302
00:10:18,860 --> 00:10:19,040
Have I?

303
00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:20,580
I know of Reverb, but no.

304
00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:23,100
I don't know whether people sell much.

305
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:23,500
No.

306
00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:24,360
What's Reverb?

307
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:25,380
It's very trustworthy.

308
00:10:25,620 --> 00:10:26,860
It's good for pricing, that's for sure.

309
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:27,340
Yeah.

310
00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:29,180
So...

311
00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:29,800
Five grand?

312
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:30,560
5,500?

313
00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:32,100
Yeah.

314
00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:32,200
Yeah.

315
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,220
So I got mine for four.

316
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,800
But you can buy them for 3,500

317
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:36,320
bucks.

318
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:37,420
Used.

319
00:10:38,460 --> 00:10:39,660
So, $3,300.

320
00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:41,720
It's like, I've lost money on that one.

321
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,940
The 2254 Neve compressor, the AMS version, which

322
00:10:46,940 --> 00:10:47,720
is what I've got here.

323
00:10:48,540 --> 00:10:49,900
A new one of those is 4,500

324
00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:52,180
Australian dollars.

325
00:10:53,420 --> 00:10:56,340
But if you have a 2254 limited compressor

326
00:10:56,340 --> 00:10:59,980
vintage rack stereo pair, U.S. dollars?

327
00:10:59,980 --> 00:11:01,220
12,000.

328
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:02,600
Hmm.

329
00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:03,580
So, yeah.

330
00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:05,480
I mean, there's certain gear that is still

331
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,460
very commonly available and or still being made

332
00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:11,840
new, which definitely is going to happen.

333
00:11:11,940 --> 00:11:13,140
You know, like the Avalon's are a great

334
00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:13,740
example.

335
00:11:14,020 --> 00:11:15,200
They still produce these.

336
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:16,920
I think the Varium U is still being

337
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:17,200
made.

338
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:17,460
Right.

339
00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:21,460
So, that drives down the use price a

340
00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:22,040
fair deal.

341
00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:24,460
And I thought these things were worth well

342
00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:25,340
over two grand.

343
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,580
They're worth 1,500 to 1,700 bucks,

344
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:30,800
the Avalon's.

345
00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:31,720
For those Avalon's?

346
00:11:31,740 --> 00:11:32,180
And you know what?

347
00:11:32,220 --> 00:11:33,640
Every one of them that I'm selling has

348
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,160
been refurbed.

349
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,660
So, there's about $500 to $700 in labor

350
00:11:38,660 --> 00:11:39,900
into each one of these units.

351
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,500
So, I have to recoup 1,000.

352
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,240
I can recoup 1,000 bucks maybe on

353
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:45,480
these.

354
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,680
But yeah, they're definitely not going up in

355
00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:52,280
value in terms of used market, the Avalon's.

356
00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:54,200
They're pretty kind of stable.

357
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,660
The other question is, as people dealing with

358
00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:00,840
audio, can you hear the difference between a

359
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,340
clone or a plug-in as opposed to

360
00:12:03,340 --> 00:12:05,400
a real piece of…

361
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,700
Well, I mean, you can have five LA

362
00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:09,220
-2As that are all going to sound different,

363
00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:09,500
right?

364
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:10,340
Yeah.

365
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,160
And that's the problem with anything that's got

366
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,080
tubes or old wiring and capacitors and stuff.

367
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:21,140
All that stuff degrades and ages over time.

368
00:12:21,140 --> 00:12:22,780
So, like I said, when I bring these

369
00:12:22,780 --> 00:12:25,000
Avalon's into my friends over at Audio Rehab,

370
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,980
which is the official repair center of Avalon

371
00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:29,420
for the entire United States, it's going to

372
00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:31,560
come out of there benching as a new

373
00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:31,840
unit.

374
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:33,140
No questions asked.

375
00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:35,760
No, you would not hear the difference in

376
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:36,300
that case.

377
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:40,400
But yeah, when they're truly vintage and they

378
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,780
haven't been benched in 5, 10, 20 years,

379
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,020
yeah, they're all going to sound different for

380
00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:45,340
sure.

381
00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:49,180
In fact, even UA has in their library

382
00:12:49,180 --> 00:12:52,420
of teletronics LA-2As, their models, there's three

383
00:12:52,420 --> 00:12:53,460
or four different models.

384
00:12:54,180 --> 00:12:57,160
They all have a different image on the

385
00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:58,980
screen and one looks like it's got little

386
00:12:58,980 --> 00:13:02,540
Dymo labels stuck on it, like somebody's original

387
00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:03,720
piece of gear out of his…

388
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,560
It probably came out of, you know, what's

389
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:06,380
-his-face's studio.

390
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:07,440
And people played with this.

391
00:13:08,180 --> 00:13:10,880
Who's the plug-in manufacturer that we interviewed

392
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,700
where it's like, that's not just anything for

393
00:13:12,700 --> 00:13:14,100
a child, that's so-and-so's for a

394
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:14,860
child that we cloned?

395
00:13:14,860 --> 00:13:15,900
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

396
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,940
And then the other one is Plugin Alliance

397
00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:18,780
that they have.

398
00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:22,080
Imagine you have a Neve desk and there's

399
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,620
80 channels in the Neve desk.

400
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,300
It's expected that not all 80 channels are

401
00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:26,760
the same.

402
00:13:27,180 --> 00:13:28,500
And so in their plug-in, when you

403
00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:30,780
throw the plug-in down many times, they

404
00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:34,700
have a setting that they have patented that

405
00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:38,180
gives every single plug-in reiteration of that

406
00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:40,960
within your DAW a different sound.

407
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,160
Oh my God.

408
00:13:43,540 --> 00:13:44,480
You didn't know about that?

409
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,000
No, I mean, that's not the world I

410
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,800
live in, but that's insane.

411
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,980
I mean, I know what it's all about,

412
00:13:52,020 --> 00:13:53,660
authenticity, but holy smokes.

413
00:13:54,580 --> 00:13:56,320
Well, it's like sampled instruments.

414
00:13:57,020 --> 00:13:59,040
Sampled pianos and Rhodes and stuff only got

415
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,280
good when they started sampling them at every

416
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,360
velocity, you know, softer, harder, harder, harder, harder,

417
00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:06,840
you know?

418
00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:08,980
And it's still not good enough.

419
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,220
It's still not the same.

420
00:14:10,220 --> 00:14:11,800
When you go with the really soft, you're

421
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,880
like, man, I can hit a piano hammer

422
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,520
so soft that it doesn't make any sound.

423
00:14:16,820 --> 00:14:17,140
Right, yeah.

424
00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:17,420
Yes.

425
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,420
Plugin Alliance calls it variable harmonics.

426
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:21,220
Wow.

427
00:14:21,540 --> 00:14:23,100
And you can make it...

428
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:24,820
Is it sort of a randomizer?

429
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,720
It's a randomizer that changes the TVT.

430
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:29,680
No, no, no, sorry, sorry.

431
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,660
Tolerance Modeling Technology, TMT, patented by Brainworks.

432
00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:37,700
This technology is used by many plug-in

433
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:40,700
products, including the Lyndall Audio 50 Series.

434
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,460
Functionality, TMT emulates the minor component variations found

435
00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:46,800
in various analog hardware.

436
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,780
This process adds a slight realistic difference in

437
00:14:49,780 --> 00:14:52,200
tolerance between every single plug-in channel.

438
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,480
I don't like the way this mix sounds.

439
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:54,960
Hang on, hit the button.

440
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:55,400
Click.

441
00:14:55,860 --> 00:14:56,580
Let me fuck it up.

442
00:14:56,660 --> 00:14:58,740
Randomize all the models.

443
00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:59,200
Right.

444
00:14:59,460 --> 00:15:00,220
Do it again.

445
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:01,620
Now that's better.

446
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:02,640
I think I like that better.

447
00:15:03,180 --> 00:15:04,340
Now go back to the first one.

448
00:15:04,340 --> 00:15:05,300
I can't.

449
00:15:05,460 --> 00:15:06,060
It was random.

450
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,560
So by introducing these subtle imperfections, TMT creates

451
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,080
harmonic variations across multiple tracks, which provides depth

452
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,660
and realism associated with analog consoles.

453
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:18,680
Wow.

454
00:15:19,980 --> 00:15:22,340
Maybe they couldn't make it consistent, and then

455
00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:23,260
they called it a feature.

456
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:24,340
There you go.

457
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,080
Well, if it's machine learning based, then it

458
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:28,740
would have problems.

459
00:15:29,180 --> 00:15:29,900
Patent that flaw.

460
00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:32,220
Well, anything that's machine learning has problems with

461
00:15:32,220 --> 00:15:32,880
consistency.

462
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,740
If that's part of what's going on, I

463
00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:36,400
don't think so.

464
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:37,180
Yeah.

465
00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:38,180
Yeah.

466
00:15:38,260 --> 00:15:39,040
That's fascinating.

467
00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:41,420
And I haven't really seen machine learning entering

468
00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:44,340
the world of modeled preamps and modeled gear

469
00:15:44,340 --> 00:15:46,240
yet, so I guess that's the next thing

470
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:46,660
probably.

471
00:15:47,460 --> 00:15:48,980
You could go to the plug-in and

472
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:51,160
go type into the thing.

473
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,060
I just hit you with a hammer three

474
00:15:53,060 --> 00:15:53,660
times.

475
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,660
What do you sound like now?

476
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,760
You know, it's like microphonic and it's distorting.

477
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,900
It's like the spring reverb that they modeled

478
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:08,600
the sound of someone kicking the amp.

479
00:16:09,140 --> 00:16:09,280
Right.

480
00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:11,320
They did that.

481
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:11,920
Did they really?

482
00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:13,200
Yes.

483
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,840
And one of the soft tube spring reverb,

484
00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:20,440
you can flick it and it, you know,

485
00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:23,080
like there's a knob for it.

486
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:28,060
It really does depend on how unique the

487
00:16:28,060 --> 00:16:29,660
pre is, I think, or the pieces.

488
00:16:30,340 --> 00:16:32,660
How hard it is to find and how

489
00:16:32,660 --> 00:16:34,040
popular it is right now.

490
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:36,360
Some of it's not really like gaining.

491
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,260
Some of it's matching, you know, like inflation

492
00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:42,120
and some is outpacing it.

493
00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:43,300
Some is doing as well as stock.

494
00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:44,600
I mean, if you have a used piece

495
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,920
of gear that's doing as well as the

496
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,360
stock market, that's pretty good.

497
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,600
Because the stock market is better than real

498
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:49,960
estate.

499
00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:51,880
And at least here it is.

500
00:16:56,660 --> 00:16:59,840
But we've also seen the real estate market

501
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,520
go haywire too.

502
00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:04,119
So it's fascinating to look at.

503
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,260
But it doesn't really go down or down

504
00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:07,780
fast.

505
00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:08,800
So there's that.

506
00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:12,160
I mean, I have a bag of junk

507
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,240
silver that hasn't really gone up in value

508
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:15,220
in the last 10 years.

509
00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:16,660
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

510
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,020
I might actually have lost money on that.

511
00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:21,500
If you talk to Andrew Sheps, he mixes

512
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:22,440
in the box now.

513
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:23,099
Yeah.

514
00:17:23,339 --> 00:17:25,300
You mean the creator of the Sheps Omnichannel?

515
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:26,599
Yeah.

516
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:27,460
Yeah, of course.

517
00:17:27,660 --> 00:17:28,460
He made his own plug-in.

518
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:30,900
Why would you spend all the time to

519
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:32,140
make a plug-in if you didn't believe

520
00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:32,800
it was amazing?

521
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,280
But, I mean, you recall the desk.

522
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,360
And you know how clients are.

523
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,560
And it's a business.

524
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,320
And it is so much more practical to

525
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,300
mix in the box and recall that thing

526
00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:46,120
and make a tweak.

527
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:46,740
Yep.

528
00:17:46,740 --> 00:17:48,620
And the most you want to have is

529
00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:50,460
maybe something on your master chain.

530
00:17:50,940 --> 00:17:52,820
But if you get too far out on

531
00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:55,660
gear, you can only mix it in one

532
00:17:55,660 --> 00:17:56,000
place.

533
00:17:56,020 --> 00:17:57,220
You can't have it on your laptop.

534
00:17:57,460 --> 00:17:58,760
You can't recall it and do a quick

535
00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:59,660
change for somebody.

536
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,340
Let's talk about summing amplifiers sometime too.

537
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,120
That's a whole other mystical piece of the

538
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:06,040
mix down puzzle.

539
00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:07,420
Summing amps.

540
00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:09,800
Or even people just talking about different DAWs

541
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,460
having different summing characteristics.

542
00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:16,400
I always use the Harrison DAW because of

543
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,960
its summing.

544
00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:19,040
Oh, it's real analog.

545
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:24,560
Or UA is trying to say that their

546
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,520
Luna sounds real.

547
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,060
And then Pro Tools has heat on the

548
00:18:31,060 --> 00:18:31,580
mix bus.

549
00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:32,000
Right.

550
00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:34,000
Which is literally just all of these things

551
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:34,700
are distortions.

552
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:35,560
Just distortions.

553
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:36,020
Yeah.

554
00:18:36,620 --> 00:18:39,660
Tape saturators, virtual tape decks, et cetera, et

555
00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:40,040
cetera, et cetera.

556
00:18:40,660 --> 00:18:41,060
Yeah.

557
00:18:41,060 --> 00:18:43,340
I can say having used tape saturators and

558
00:18:43,340 --> 00:18:45,920
real tape, it's really hard to get one

559
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,440
that feels really exactly the same.

560
00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:48,980
Oh, yeah.

561
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:51,680
There's just something about tracking drums through tape

562
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,340
that works really well.

563
00:18:53,660 --> 00:18:55,240
It takes away a lot of compressor work

564
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:55,340
later.

565
00:18:55,340 --> 00:18:56,660
And I think it's really the drums themselves.

566
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,320
Yeah, it does the compression for you.

567
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:00,600
You don't have to spend nearly as much

568
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,980
time monkeying with compressors trying to get that.

569
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,420
Yeah, it just kind of gets them in

570
00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:07,680
a nice fat, kind of consistent.

571
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,060
I don't know about consistent, but just has

572
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:16,040
a certain roundness without being overly compressed.

573
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,900
And it just happens for you so much

574
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:19,280
easier.

575
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:21,440
And then you try the tape emulators, and

576
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,440
they're just flipping them on and off.

577
00:19:23,540 --> 00:19:24,380
You're like, can I hear it?

578
00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:26,680
And probably the difference is the tape deck

579
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,240
is really messed up.

580
00:19:28,780 --> 00:19:31,120
The tape emulators are emulating a tape deck

581
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:32,420
that's properly set up.

582
00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:35,460
Meanwhile, your love of the tape deck is

583
00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:38,240
it's not really well calibrated or hasn't been

584
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,120
calibrated in a while.

585
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:40,540
Well, I mean, I've been listening to cassette

586
00:19:40,540 --> 00:19:42,020
tapes a little bit because I bought my

587
00:19:42,020 --> 00:19:44,640
daughter a cassette boom box, little mini tiny

588
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,540
one that has CD player in the top

589
00:19:46,540 --> 00:19:48,060
and Bluetooth and stuff.

590
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:49,700
And I was at her house, and I

591
00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:51,340
played a tape that I'd bought for her,

592
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,500
a Billie Eilish tape, her newest albums on

593
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:54,800
cassette.

594
00:19:55,660 --> 00:19:58,360
And I played it back on her deck,

595
00:19:58,380 --> 00:19:59,660
and it sounded like shit.

596
00:19:59,660 --> 00:20:03,880
I was like, is that the deck or

597
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:04,860
is that the tape, right?

598
00:20:05,380 --> 00:20:07,240
So fortunately, I had made her a dub

599
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,020
of my own.

600
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,400
I took her top 30 songs on Spotify,

601
00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:14,340
recorded them through a Sony cassette deck that

602
00:20:14,340 --> 00:20:15,920
I bummed off a friend of mine who

603
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,020
never uses it, right?

604
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,760
And it won't rewind, but it still records

605
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:20,300
perfectly.

606
00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:23,600
And I made a tape for her.

607
00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:24,580
I had that tape too.

608
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,220
I put that into her deck, and it

609
00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:27,560
sounded so much better.

610
00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:30,660
All it did remind me is that bin

611
00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:33,460
-looped mass-produced cassettes still sound like garbage.

612
00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:34,620
Sound like garbage.

613
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:37,360
Maybe Billie Eilish cleaned the heads of her

614
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:38,260
tape deck.

615
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:38,700
Right?

616
00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:41,740
But the point of those cassettes is not

617
00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:43,540
at all about quality because I was shocked

618
00:20:43,540 --> 00:20:45,000
at how good the tape sounded when I

619
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,120
made that one for my daughter.

620
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,300
I actually sat and listened to pretty much

621
00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:50,620
the whole tape, headphones plugged right into the

622
00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:50,880
deck.

623
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:52,800
And I was like, damn, this sounds pretty

624
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:52,900
good.

625
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:54,420
Because you can't hear above 14k anymore?

626
00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:57,640
It just sounded pretty solid, you know?

627
00:20:57,780 --> 00:20:58,740
It sounded clean and good.

628
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,840
And then I shipped her off the tape.

629
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,100
But I don't know, my point being, I

630
00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:06,600
guess, is that, you know, I don't know

631
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:07,100
what my point is.

632
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:07,660
Go ahead, AP.

633
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:09,760
I was just going to say that I

634
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,160
remember years ago, I was back in the

635
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,820
80s, I was in the UK doing some

636
00:21:13,820 --> 00:21:16,700
interviews, and they'd always give you like a

637
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:20,980
white label or promotional copy of whatever record

638
00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:22,460
you're going to be talking to the person

639
00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:22,680
about.

640
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:25,020
And the best one I got was actually,

641
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:26,800
which I've since lost, which is so annoying,

642
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,180
it was the drummer from Orange Juice, a

643
00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:30,320
guy called Zigbang Yika.

644
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,160
And they gave me his album on cassette,

645
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,100
and it was a chrome cassette, chrome tape.

646
00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:37,720
Man, did that sound good.

647
00:21:38,020 --> 00:21:39,120
They can sound good, yeah.

648
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,480
Yeah, that was very good.

649
00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:42,420
So here's one that went up in value.

650
00:21:42,540 --> 00:21:45,220
I still have my Tanscam 688 8-track

651
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:45,560
cassette.

652
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:52,600
I bought it in 1994 or 1992.

653
00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:53,140
New.

654
00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:56,800
No, no, I bought it like 1990.

655
00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:57,880
Okay, so it was used.

656
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:58,700
I graduated in 92.

657
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,540
So I bought it new in 1990.

658
00:22:01,540 --> 00:22:02,080
Oh, new, yeah.

659
00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:04,760
And it was $1,600.

660
00:22:05,180 --> 00:22:06,600
I took a loan out to buy that

661
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:06,840
thing.

662
00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:07,780
Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of money.

663
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,440
Now, one in good condition, it's $2,500.

664
00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:16,540
Well, is that keeping up with inflation?

665
00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:17,880
But that's probably not the same value as

666
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,020
the $1,600 I spent.

667
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:20,480
No, because I love this.

668
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,120
I don't think that kept up with inflation.

669
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:23,780
Okay, so ready?

670
00:22:23,860 --> 00:22:25,540
If you took $1,600 and put it

671
00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:26,940
in the stock market, this would be funny.

672
00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:28,380
Don't depress yourself.

673
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,520
Yeah, you'd be about $2,500.

674
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:33,620
$1,600 times, we're going to say 5%.

675
00:22:33,620 --> 00:22:34,920
And what is that, 1990?

676
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,180
So 10, 20, 35 years?

677
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:39,780
35 years ago, yeah.

678
00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:42,300
That's frightening, isn't it, 35 years ago?

679
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:42,900
Good God.

680
00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:45,820
Yeah, if you put it in the stock

681
00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:47,420
market, you'd have $8,800.

682
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,440
And that's conservative.

683
00:22:52,020 --> 00:22:53,520
You probably would have a lot more than

684
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:53,760
that.

685
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,160
Which we'd buy you a meat pie and

686
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:56,280
a beer these days anyway.

687
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,040
So, you know.

688
00:22:57,740 --> 00:22:58,600
Yeah, that's right.

689
00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:00,120
We're doing 20% lately.

690
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,520
Yeah, 20%, you'd have a crapload.

691
00:23:05,020 --> 00:23:05,820
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

692
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,340
You could buy my stuff, and then I

693
00:23:07,340 --> 00:23:09,440
could invest the money into something else.

694
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:10,620
There you have it.

695
00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:12,900
Pro Audio gear, not a solid.

696
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:14,220
I had a hell of a lot of

697
00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:15,080
fun with that thing.

698
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:15,640
Yeah.

699
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,420
It ain't all about the resale value.

700
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:19,140
No.

701
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:20,800
Well, that was fun.

702
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:21,260
Is it over?

703
00:23:21,420 --> 00:23:22,380
It's over with me.

704
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:24,080
The Pro Audio Suite.

705
00:23:24,180 --> 00:23:25,460
With thanks to Tribooth.

706
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,740
And Austrian Audio.

707
00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:28,480
Recorded using Source Connect.

708
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,480
Edited by Andrew Peters.

709
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:31,680
And mixed by Robbo.

710
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,060
Got your own audio issues?

711
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:34,920
Just ask Robbo.com.

712
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,920
And tech support from George the Tech Witter.

713
00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:38,740
Don't forget to subscribe to the show.

714
00:23:38,740 --> 00:23:41,040
And join in the conversation on our Facebook

715
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:41,320
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716
00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:43,460
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717
00:23:43,460 --> 00:23:44,360
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718
00:23:44,460 --> 00:23:45,960
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719
00:23:46,780 --> 00:23:47,660
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