Latency: The Invisible Killer of Your Audio Flow

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Get ready.

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Be history. Get started.

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Welcome.

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Hi. Hi. Hi.

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Hello, everyone, to the pro audio suite.

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These guys are professional and motivated.

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Please take the video. Stars.

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George was a founder of Source Element.

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Robert Marshall, international audio
engineer Darren Robin

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Roberts and global voice Andrew repeaters.

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Thanks to tribal Austrian audio lighting,
passionate elements George the tech

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wisdom and Rob APIs international demos
to find out more about us.

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Jake the Proteas sweetcorn line up.

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Ready? Here we go.

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And welcome to another pro audio suite
thanks to Triber.

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Don't forget the code.

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Try Pip 200 to get $200 off your try.

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Booth and Austrian audio
making your passion heard.

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And like should you say there is something
heading this way towards me?

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That's me from Austrian audio.

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Can't say anything yet, but, we'll be
giving that a whirl in weeks to come.

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And I'm a little bit excited.

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I want to know. Can't tell you.

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How I'm going to wonder that I'm going
to be completely distracted for this.

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What?

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It was just going to keep coming up
with random ideas through the episode.

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Yeah, exactly. Going is it is it?

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Yeah. Does it sound like.

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Can you get it at CVS?

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Yes, you can.

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But it's under a plexus plexi.

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Kits.

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You have to get them to out
open it up for you.

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Is it chocolate colored.

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And there are no buts about it.

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But anyway.

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You had.

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To be on the beginning of the show.
Seriously.

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Maybe we should do that for a,

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We should put that out as the episode.

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It's a Patreon, you know?

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You want to hear the weird shit?

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I said I'd like to. Get that. Joke.
Yeah. Patreon.

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I mean, the nice bit there is.

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You know, we're now talking about
hearing things late, so there you go.

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That probably sits.

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Oh, it does indeed,
because the latency is,

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Well, I mean, everyone kind of knows

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what latency is,
but really do we know what latency is?

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Well, I.

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Think a lot of people are confused about.

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What is. See, delay.

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Let's let's start let's start with what?

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It's not it's not echoing back.

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Yeah.

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Well, it kind of does.

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I mean, I guess because, you know,
if you like, you can sort of hear

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ringing in other people's
headphones and stuff. Right?

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Echoing back is caused by latency,
but latency is not echoing.

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Best latency is what in its most basic
form, latency is the time it takes your

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audio signal to go through your system
to be processed digitally.

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Sometimes
it might be sent to another machine

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and come back,
and then it's got to go back into

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whatever it is you're using
and then go back out.

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So it's the time it takes
is time for that process to happen.

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Yeah. Latency is the time for a process
to take place.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And sometimes for me to understand
what you just said.

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Yeah.

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So like say, look, I mean, biggest place

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I know the city's on source
connect sessions when I'm working with

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maybe doing a voice over demo
with or recording someone in the States.

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Right.

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Because it's got to get to me
from the States and source connects

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for to do it sync.

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And you can talk more
about what happens there Robert.

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And then it's got to go from me.

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I've got to sort of re spot,
I've got to respond.

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And then it's got to go back
through that same process back to right.

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Yeah. That's gone.

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So that's a round trip. So that's. A real.

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Classic latency.

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The classic latency
joke is the guy who's like at the like,

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you know, the war correspondent
out in the field in the control room.

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Just like what's it like out there.

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Oh yes Kenny.

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Yeah. Yeah. It is really awful out here.

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It's there on a satellite.

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Q then it's going to be 3 or 4 second to.

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Right? Yeah.

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So so what what sort of things
are happening inside a plugin.

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Let's talk about for example,
Inside Source Connect.

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Without giving away any trade secrets,
why does like for me it's

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you know, I would sort of think, well,
it's only got to sort of shoot

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through this,
you know, this computer thing.

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Why does it take so long
to get through there?

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So there's latency all over the place.

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Even if you've ever connected
your audio interface and you hear yourself

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like some computer software lets
you monitor yourself through the software,

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and when you do, you might hear a little

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like shadowing or a very quick, very,
very short echo of yourself.

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A musician would call it a flam.

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Or ProTools is a classic example of this,
because unless you use low

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latency monitoring in the native version,
you have a.

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Stream. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

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So then you're going to hear yourself
through all the buffering that occurs

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where your audio interface collects
the data.

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That's one process in the audio
interface computer.

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It hands it off to ProTools,
ProTools records it.

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Maybe ProTools even has to pass it
through a few plugins

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that you have on that channel.

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That's also more time to,
you know, to process those plugins.

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And then out
it goes back to your headphones.

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So every DAW has a usually
some sort of buffer.

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And it's the classic thing
where if you lower the buffer

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you're going to have less latency.

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It'll sound
like you're having less of a flam,

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but then you're going to make it
less stable because the computer

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has less time to apply to do
all these processes that it needs to.

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And if it can't get them all done in time,

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depending on how the software handles it,
it might just stop what it's doing

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and throw an error message up and say,
oh, I had an error,

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or it might not throw
the error message up,

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but it might make all the audio
sound like garbage.

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It just depends on how the software
decides to handle that state.

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So there's time it takes just locally

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to get the audio into your computer
and then into the software,

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be it Pro Tools or Source Connect or Zoom
or whatever it is.

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It has to digitize the audio
so it has a converted from a voltage to

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to a digital signal,
and then has to take that digital signal,

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get it into the computer software,
into the computer software.

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The computer software has to do something
with it.

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EQ compression, who knows.

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In the case of Source Connect,
what it's doing is

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it's taking that audio data,
which is a lot of audio data,

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and it's putting a
with a data compression on it.

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That's not like audio compression
in terms of dynamic range.

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It's compressing the audio to remove

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what it knows
you can't hear as a human, so that it can

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then send less data without losing
audio quality across the internet.

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So that time it takes to compress
the audio, data wise takes,

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only a few milliseconds.

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You know, 20 milliseconds
actually, or something.

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I think it might be less.

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I think it's 20 milliseconds
to compress it and decompress it.

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The real time

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that, no pun intended that occurs is in
hauling it over the internet.

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So there's a few other steps
that connect has to take before

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it gets it on the internet.

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It then has to take chunks
of those of that audio

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and has to chop it up
into what's called the packet.

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Think of that as like
has to put the audio in a box

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so that that box can be
sent over the internet.

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Because the internet doesn't work
in continuous streams of data,

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it works in packets or chunks of data.

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So you have to take your audio.

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That's rather continuous,
chop it up into chunks or packets,

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and then send those packets across
the internet, receive those packets.

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And so when you receive the packets,
you have to have another buffer

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because you need to make sure
that you get all those packets in order.

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When you start sending them out,

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you don't know how they're going
to go across the internet.

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And sometimes some of them
might take a slightly different route

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depending on how the internet,
the internet's, self deterministic,

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how it decides to deliver
data from point A to point B,

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so the buffer on the receiving side
is what the

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what gives the system time to make sure
that it has all the packets in order

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so that it can play them out
without a hiccup or a drop out,

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and then it receives all those packets,
it gets them in order,

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plays them out, decompresses them,
and then reverses everything.

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So it decompresses that makes them
the big string of audio hands that,

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to your audio software
that's playing it out.

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Again, in this case, it's
sort of connect off to the audio card,

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which has a little small buffer in it,
and then out to your headphones.

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So and so all of that, depending on
where you are, it can take a varied amount

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of time, anywhere from 300 milliseconds
to possibly around a half second or.

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So with, with the internet,
because we always

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assume is like point A to point B,
and that's it.

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There's nothing in between.
But it doesn't work that way, does it?

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Because sometimes it'll veer off it off
some other direction.

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Right.

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So there's all the way the internet works
is there's these many different series.

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Yeah. I don't know.

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It's there's many, many, many different
internet service providers out there.

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And they all do
what's called peer together.

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So what makes the internet work
is that all

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providers on the internet
have to peer with each other.

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And this is where you get your issues
with net neutrality and whatnot,

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because they should all deal
with each other's

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data with the same priority,
but they don't necessarily do that.

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They really give all of each other
the lowest priority technically.

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So for example, AT&T, if it has data
from its own network, it's going to pass

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that data to the next hop before it passes
data from, say, T-Mobile or Verizon.

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So the internet's built off

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of these many, many different providers
in the in the United States,

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you have what's called the tier one or,
you know, tier one providers.

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And usually at some point,
if you're connecting from one carrier

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to another, at some point
you end up going down

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all the way down to a tier
one provider and back up,

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so many local carriers
might be many tiers up from a tier one.

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But in theory, if you and your connection
partner were on AT&T, if AT&T was doing

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everything really perfectly,
the data would never leave AT&T network.

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That's not to say it doesn't hop across
many different nodes on AT&T network.

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So AT&T also would peer with itself.

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You know, you're in New York.

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The person you're connecting
with is in, say LA.

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Your signal might go

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probably down through Texas,
through some of various servers

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and, you know, like Houston
and maybe over in Colorado or New Mexico.

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And eventually it's just sort of
hopscotching across the country

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from one peering point to the other
until it gets to the end endpoint.

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So with with source connect the just
source elements where your service based.

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So we have relay servers.

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So normally source connect

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first going to try to create
what's called a peer to peer connection

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which AT&T or the provider
would figure out that route for you.

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But if your firewalls
can't trust each other,

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then you have to have the data coming
from a trusted point.

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And that would be our servers.

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So we have servers throughout the globe.

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I forget exactly where at this point,

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because we've expanded, but we at least at
one point had two in Europe,

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I think three

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in the United States and one in Asia
at least.

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Yeah.

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Those were that was in the pandemic.

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We had like 5 or 6 points.
I think we have more now.

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But if we like I'm just thinking
like, for instance, if I'm sitting here,

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where I'm in Victoria in Australia

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and I'm connecting with Rob in Sydney,

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with which service do I pass through
to get to Sydney from here?

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Would I go overseas? You might.

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You might go all the way to Singapore
I think is where I think are

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apex servers are
I think they're in the Singapore area.

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So if you were connecting peer

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to peer, your connection might never leave
Australia.

237
00:11:32,650 --> 00:11:35,361
The servers serve two purposes.

238
00:11:35,361 --> 00:11:36,946
One is a meet and greet.

239
00:11:36,946 --> 00:11:40,950
So you both log in to the server
and you have no idea where each other are.

240
00:11:40,950 --> 00:11:44,120
And Robbo sends a message to Andrew
that says, hey, I want to connect.

241
00:11:44,495 --> 00:11:47,957
That message goes to the server and the
server says, oh, I know where Andrew is.

242
00:11:48,249 --> 00:11:49,625
I'll send that message to Andrew.

243
00:11:49,625 --> 00:11:51,335
Robert wants to connect.

244
00:11:51,335 --> 00:11:52,628
Andrew accepts.

245
00:11:52,628 --> 00:11:57,550
Then it's going to basically give up all
the information about Robert's location,

246
00:11:58,509 --> 00:11:59,593
and it will try to make that

247
00:11:59,593 --> 00:12:03,180
connection peer to peer,
which might take, as I call it, the birds.

248
00:12:03,389 --> 00:12:06,308
As the bird flies through the internet,
the shortest path.

249
00:12:06,308 --> 00:12:08,018
That's what the internet should do
naturally,

250
00:12:08,018 --> 00:12:09,937
should make a peer to peer connection.

251
00:12:09,937 --> 00:12:11,814
If it can't,

252
00:12:11,814 --> 00:12:14,817
then you might see Source Connect,
say switching over to Source Stream.

253
00:12:15,484 --> 00:12:18,571
At that point, you guys would both
be going through Singapore,

254
00:12:19,113 --> 00:12:20,531
which technically adds latency

255
00:12:20,531 --> 00:12:21,907
because now you both
have to go all the way

256
00:12:21,907 --> 00:12:24,160
to Singapore
and back to talk to each other. Right?

257
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,080
But the only reason why that would be
happening is to satisfy a firewall

258
00:12:28,205 --> 00:12:29,373
or security issue.

259
00:12:29,373 --> 00:12:34,086
Not because it's actually technically
better to add this mileage

260
00:12:34,086 --> 00:12:36,964
to the connection.

261
00:12:36,964 --> 00:12:39,091
So you're not always
going through our servers.

262
00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:41,469
We try to always find the shortest path.

263
00:12:41,469 --> 00:12:44,764
So then okay,
so now we know what causes it.

264
00:12:44,805 --> 00:12:45,931
How can we deal with it.

265
00:12:45,931 --> 00:12:49,351
So Source Connect three
you would have your ports forwarded.

266
00:12:49,685 --> 00:12:53,022
And that would very much guarantee
that you'd get a peer to peer connection.

267
00:12:53,022 --> 00:12:54,523
If both sides have their ports forwarded

268
00:12:54,523 --> 00:12:56,567
you're going to get a peer
to peer connection

269
00:12:56,567 --> 00:12:59,653
as long as you don't have that user stream
checkbox selected.

270
00:13:00,362 --> 00:13:03,199
Which would force it to use the streaming
server again.

271
00:13:03,199 --> 00:13:04,533
That's the best way.

272
00:13:04,533 --> 00:13:08,829
But port forwarding has just
become untenable for a number of reasons.

273
00:13:09,246 --> 00:13:13,000
One of the biggest reasons
is especially with the NBN,

274
00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:16,837
I've seen this
and really with more and more countries,

275
00:13:17,296 --> 00:13:20,257
in the United States,
if you have a cellular connection,

276
00:13:20,841 --> 00:13:21,300
you're not going

277
00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:24,637
to get an internet connection that puts
you directly on the public internet

278
00:13:25,179 --> 00:13:28,057
and most of the internet connections
that the NBN provides,

279
00:13:28,057 --> 00:13:31,143
as far as I've noticed, do not put you
directly on the public internet,

280
00:13:31,644 --> 00:13:35,439
so you can't do port forwarding
unless you have a direct connection

281
00:13:35,439 --> 00:13:37,024
to the public internet.

282
00:13:37,024 --> 00:13:39,902
If you don't have a direct connection
to the public internet, basically

283
00:13:39,902 --> 00:13:44,365
what you have is an internet service
provider that corrals all their users

284
00:13:44,365 --> 00:13:48,369
into one massive little private network,
and then lets them all

285
00:13:48,828 --> 00:13:53,541
get to the public internet through one
point of presence, essentially.

286
00:13:53,541 --> 00:13:57,670
And they save money,
they save IP addresses this way and costs.

287
00:13:57,878 --> 00:14:02,341
So you can think of it, the difference
of living in a city directly on the grid,

288
00:14:02,633 --> 00:14:04,718
or living in the little community

289
00:14:04,718 --> 00:14:06,679
where all the houses
have all their private roads.

290
00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,766
But to get out to the road anywhere else
besides the group of houses,

291
00:14:10,766 --> 00:14:14,311
you have to go through that one road
that puts you on the public road

292
00:14:14,854 --> 00:14:16,105
compared to the HOA.

293
00:14:17,273 --> 00:14:17,940
So most

294
00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:21,402
internet service providers are sticking
everyone B inside their HOA now.

295
00:14:21,777 --> 00:14:24,780
Therefore, you can't do port forwarding
and port forwarding is a pain in the butt.

296
00:14:25,948 --> 00:14:26,824
Usually.

297
00:14:26,824 --> 00:14:32,329
Source CNet can try to figure its way
out of those networks and still establish

298
00:14:32,329 --> 00:14:35,332
a port, a peer to peer connection,
even without a port forward.

299
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,128
But it's not guaranteed,
because a lot has to do with.

300
00:14:39,753 --> 00:14:44,341
Yeah, it gets really technical,
but essentially a really strong firewall.

301
00:14:44,341 --> 00:14:47,386
A router would realize that it's

302
00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:50,681
having a conversation with our server
and that's using a port.

303
00:14:51,098 --> 00:14:54,852
And then Robbo comes in and says, hey,
let me send data in to Andrew

304
00:14:54,852 --> 00:14:56,395
on that same port.

305
00:14:56,395 --> 00:14:58,856
And a good firewall would say, Yeah.

306
00:14:58,856 --> 00:14:59,481
See you. Later.

307
00:14:59,481 --> 00:15:00,941
I'm not fallen for that.

308
00:15:00,941 --> 00:15:03,527
Like,
like you're not the person I'm talking to.

309
00:15:03,527 --> 00:15:06,447
Whereas a weaker
firewall would let us kind of like,

310
00:15:06,447 --> 00:15:10,367
stick our foot in the door and then
let Rob go in through that same port.

311
00:15:10,868 --> 00:15:12,912
There's advantages
to those weak firewalls,

312
00:15:12,912 --> 00:15:15,247
but there's also,
of course, obviously disadvantages.

313
00:15:16,415 --> 00:15:17,833
So ultimately

314
00:15:17,833 --> 00:15:21,045
it's these days,
you know, compared to the early 2000s,

315
00:15:21,045 --> 00:15:24,089
it's just not possible
to port forward the world anymore.

316
00:15:25,132 --> 00:15:28,135
And so the whole service has gotten

317
00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:29,053
more expensive

318
00:15:29,053 --> 00:15:32,473
to provide for these reasons,
because you have to rely on a whole global

319
00:15:32,473 --> 00:15:36,268
network of servers, even more
so to be able to make all this work.

320
00:15:38,354 --> 00:15:41,106
But yeah,
that's how it establishes its connection.

321
00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:44,652
And you don't know, like,
you could have a situation where

322
00:15:45,277 --> 00:15:48,697
two people who live in the same city
because of the firewall

323
00:15:48,697 --> 00:15:50,199
as they can't connect with each other,

324
00:15:50,199 --> 00:15:53,202
and even though they're only one house
away from each other,

325
00:15:53,619 --> 00:15:56,080
might have to bounce
through a relay server,

326
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,083
it's hundreds of miles away
from the two of them.

327
00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:01,418
But not ideal, but sort of.

328
00:16:01,418 --> 00:16:03,128
That's how it goes.

329
00:16:03,128 --> 00:16:05,172
So it's connect
four does a pretty good job, right?

330
00:16:05,172 --> 00:16:08,425
Well, it doesn't need port
forwarding anymore and it has a much more.

331
00:16:09,218 --> 00:16:12,846
It has a larger system of global
servers to get through. And

332
00:16:14,056 --> 00:16:14,348
yeah.

333
00:16:14,348 --> 00:16:17,101
So in the sense it's better
because it doesn't rely on port

334
00:16:17,101 --> 00:16:20,980
forwarding so much and it's a little bit
more intelligent about Source connect

335
00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:23,983
three sometimes would end up
in a situation where it,

336
00:16:25,401 --> 00:16:29,571
for example, there's a system called UPnP
or it's called Universal

337
00:16:29,571 --> 00:16:33,242
Plug and Play, and that's
where the software asks for a port.

338
00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:38,080
And then the router opens up that port
for the software, which is great.

339
00:16:38,497 --> 00:16:41,959
But then what people do
is they get service from say,

340
00:16:42,209 --> 00:16:47,172
Comcast Internet, and then they go
over to BestBuy and they buy a Euro router

341
00:16:47,172 --> 00:16:50,843
and they hook up this Wi-Fi thing
to their whole house.

342
00:16:51,176 --> 00:16:53,971
So what they've done is
they've put a router inside of a router,

343
00:16:53,971 --> 00:16:56,974
they've basically created
the turducken of networks.

344
00:16:56,974 --> 00:17:00,269
And you have firewalls inside of firewalls
literally.

345
00:17:00,269 --> 00:17:04,523
Or you know, so UPnP says, hey,
you have a port, but it doesn't know

346
00:17:04,523 --> 00:17:08,777
about the next router layer
outside of that, which blocks the port.

347
00:17:08,777 --> 00:17:10,237
And source connect
doesn't know about that.

348
00:17:10,237 --> 00:17:13,323
So then Source Connect doesn't know
at least first connect three wasn't

349
00:17:13,323 --> 00:17:16,326
as quick
or good about figuring out like, oh,

350
00:17:16,827 --> 00:17:20,039
I don't really have UPnP,
I don't really have a port.

351
00:17:20,039 --> 00:17:22,958
I thought,
I have a port, and that's where,

352
00:17:23,917 --> 00:17:25,169
so sometimes you would have

353
00:17:25,169 --> 00:17:28,422
those connections that didn't work
as fluidly, and you'd have to tell it

354
00:17:28,422 --> 00:17:32,760
to switch over to source stream source
connect four is a little bit.

355
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,638
It's a lot better about figuring out
when when it needs to switch over.

356
00:17:37,598 --> 00:17:40,684
What about Wi-Fi boosters like,
you know, I've got in this house

357
00:17:40,684 --> 00:17:43,771
because the modem is actually
in the studio here, which is not.

358
00:17:44,104 --> 00:17:45,939
Typically add a layer.

359
00:17:45,939 --> 00:17:48,525
So some of them add a layer
or some of them don't.

360
00:17:48,525 --> 00:17:51,487
It depends on how they're set up.

361
00:17:51,695 --> 00:17:54,281
George, you'd actually know
more about those I think, than I do,

362
00:17:54,281 --> 00:17:58,202
but sometimes they they literally
present themselves as your first router

363
00:17:58,202 --> 00:18:01,455
is 1921681.1 and the internet boosters

364
00:18:01,455 --> 00:18:04,416
1921682.1.

365
00:18:04,583 --> 00:18:05,876
That change in that second

366
00:18:05,876 --> 00:18:09,338
number is a whole nother network layer
that's called the subnet.

367
00:18:10,005 --> 00:18:11,507
And now you've.

368
00:18:11,507 --> 00:18:14,760
Yeah. Shit complicated.
There's new router.

369
00:18:14,802 --> 00:18:18,430
Well there's modern routers
now that have mesh

370
00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:21,850
Wi-Fi router, mesh Wi-Fi extenders.

371
00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:25,813
And the nice thing about mesh stuff
is they do extend the same IP

372
00:18:25,813 --> 00:18:27,189
address across your home.

373
00:18:28,565 --> 00:18:30,818
But they have to
be they all have to work together, right?

374
00:18:30,818 --> 00:18:31,276
You can't just.

375
00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:34,404
And the mesh has to be your thing,
but you have to hook up

376
00:18:34,404 --> 00:18:37,491
your internet connection
directly to the head unit of the mesh.

377
00:18:38,033 --> 00:18:39,118
If not the whole.

378
00:18:39,118 --> 00:18:42,079
If not, the whole mesh becomes a layer.

379
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:43,956
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

380
00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:46,333
It's yeah, it's it gets messy quick.

381
00:18:46,333 --> 00:18:50,337
Even in my little 800 square foot
apartment I have, I have a router,

382
00:18:50,963 --> 00:18:54,091
a power over
Ethernet extender to go to the living room

383
00:18:54,091 --> 00:18:56,885
which is ten feet away,
but our house is made out of chicken wire.

384
00:18:56,885 --> 00:18:58,387
Yeah.

385
00:18:58,387 --> 00:19:00,973
The entire thing is a Faraday cage, right?

386
00:19:00,973 --> 00:19:03,851
And that goes out to the living room,
and then it goes

387
00:19:03,851 --> 00:19:06,895
from there to the kitchen to another Poe.

388
00:19:08,021 --> 00:19:08,522
Oh, no.

389
00:19:08,522 --> 00:19:10,607
It goes through, through the walls.

390
00:19:10,607 --> 00:19:13,735
And then it goes from there to the kitchen
to another to the other Poe.

391
00:19:14,361 --> 00:19:16,947
Then it goes to another network
extender out there,

392
00:19:16,947 --> 00:19:21,910
which is on a different subnet, completely
to get to my webcam out in the garage.

393
00:19:22,327 --> 00:19:23,370
Right.

394
00:19:23,370 --> 00:19:25,205
And that's the kind of thing
you have to do sometimes.

395
00:19:25,205 --> 00:19:30,878
But if your network is, for example,
there's one brand of router called Eero,

396
00:19:31,670 --> 00:19:34,673
not necessarily my favorite,
but they are friendly to use.

397
00:19:34,965 --> 00:19:37,467
The, let me let me make one complaint
about know

398
00:19:37,467 --> 00:19:41,013
the only place you can manage
that thing is on your stupid cell world.

399
00:19:41,096 --> 00:19:42,264
Oh, wow.

400
00:19:42,264 --> 00:19:44,016
Okay. Yeah. So annoying.

401
00:19:44,016 --> 00:19:45,225
That's what I don't like.

402
00:19:45,225 --> 00:19:47,561
And I think they do it
for security reasons.

403
00:19:47,561 --> 00:19:48,979
It's easier to secure it.

404
00:19:48,979 --> 00:19:50,856
Probably over a mobile.

405
00:19:50,856 --> 00:19:53,650
It makes it really hard
to tech support for people.

406
00:19:53,650 --> 00:19:55,360
It is really a nuisance. Yeah.

407
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:59,323
For you guys to help somebody on an Eero
and have to talk them through

408
00:19:59,323 --> 00:20:01,241
how to do it. On their own
while talking to them on their phone.

409
00:20:01,241 --> 00:20:02,868
It's not nearly. Yes.

410
00:20:02,868 --> 00:20:03,869
Yeah, yeah.

411
00:20:03,869 --> 00:20:05,621
You set up a. Screen share
and then you're like, wait.

412
00:20:05,621 --> 00:20:08,498
You're like, oh, screen trainer computer,
let me jump in your router.

413
00:20:08,498 --> 00:20:08,999
Zero.

414
00:20:08,999 --> 00:20:11,543
You're like,
oh God, okay, pick up your cell phone.

415
00:20:11,543 --> 00:20:13,295
What do you see? Oh I. Don't know.

416
00:20:13,295 --> 00:20:13,879
It says router.

417
00:20:13,879 --> 00:20:16,298
It doesn't say router.
No it says it's supposed to say router.

418
00:20:16,298 --> 00:20:19,301
I don't see it because half the time
they don't even look.

419
00:20:19,468 --> 00:20:22,095
Oh fine. Oh now I see it.
Three minutes later. Yeah.

420
00:20:22,095 --> 00:20:23,222
Like yeah.

421
00:20:23,222 --> 00:20:25,891
Yeah I haven't got a year. I said, what
are you talking about? That wasn't me.

422
00:20:27,351 --> 00:20:29,645
Okay. Yes.

423
00:20:29,645 --> 00:20:32,064
I mean you want to look for like Synology
or Ubiquity.

424
00:20:32,064 --> 00:20:34,274
Ubiquity is great ones. Yeah I like.

425
00:20:34,274 --> 00:20:38,111
Like not that expensive and really,
really reliable and easy to configure.

426
00:20:38,946 --> 00:20:41,198
But yes, you got to be really careful
with that stuff.

427
00:20:41,198 --> 00:20:43,242
It can slow down your whole network.

428
00:20:43,242 --> 00:20:45,160
Especially the ones that go Wi-Fi
to Wi-Fi.

429
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:50,374
So one of the things about the extenders
I have a set of ubiquiti unify routers

430
00:20:50,874 --> 00:20:54,127
and they're Wi-Fi hotspots,
but they are meant

431
00:20:54,127 --> 00:20:57,422
to be connected
to each other through Ethernet.

432
00:20:58,423 --> 00:20:58,715
Yeah.

433
00:20:58,715 --> 00:21:02,094
And therefore, because if not,
what you have is like, anything

434
00:21:02,094 --> 00:21:05,472
that's wireless has more latency
than anything that is wired.

435
00:21:06,098 --> 00:21:09,226
And all these things
that are wirelessly extending things,

436
00:21:09,518 --> 00:21:13,146
you have both the transmit,
the the receive and the transmit

437
00:21:13,689 --> 00:21:17,359
latency that you're adding to it
because you're basically asking it to be,

438
00:21:18,026 --> 00:21:20,529
access point and, receive

439
00:21:20,529 --> 00:21:23,532
point wirelessly at the same time.

440
00:21:23,657 --> 00:21:26,535
It's, you know, it's being both ends of it
simultaneously.

441
00:21:26,535 --> 00:21:30,247
I bought years ago, the, Apple AirPods.

442
00:21:30,872 --> 00:21:35,877
So they, you know, they plug into the plug
in the wall and then fire off Wi-Fi.

443
00:21:35,919 --> 00:21:39,715
So basically, my setup is like an Ethernet
cable connected to the modem in here.

444
00:21:39,715 --> 00:21:42,259
Underground, then into the house.

445
00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:45,762
And then there's a whole bunch of Ethernet
plugs all through the house.

446
00:21:46,388 --> 00:21:48,015
Nice, nice. Yeah.

447
00:21:48,015 --> 00:21:50,017
That's what happens
when you build your own house.

448
00:21:50,017 --> 00:21:52,686
Yeah, definitely. Exactly.

449
00:21:53,979 --> 00:21:54,688
Yeah.

450
00:21:54,688 --> 00:21:55,314
Yeah.

451
00:21:55,314 --> 00:21:59,568
Because because the power over the
or the Ethernet over the power system

452
00:21:59,735 --> 00:22:02,946
and I've seen mixed, mixed results
with those things.

453
00:22:02,946 --> 00:22:03,447
Yeah.

454
00:22:03,447 --> 00:22:06,366
Like they,
they don't they slow things down.

455
00:22:06,366 --> 00:22:09,703
I think that we talk about the latency
on the, on the computer

456
00:22:09,703 --> 00:22:13,874
and where the delay between
the add converter to the computer to it.

457
00:22:13,874 --> 00:22:15,250
And so I was getting that. Yeah.

458
00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:18,003
All of that.
I tried going over that at the beginning.

459
00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:20,505
ProTools. Yeah. ProTools
native in how it's.

460
00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:21,882
Yeah. Yeah.

461
00:22:21,882 --> 00:22:24,426
Like that really matters
for people playing in sync.

462
00:22:24,426 --> 00:22:26,178
Right. Like mainly music.

463
00:22:26,178 --> 00:22:30,223
Like if you're trying to play virtual
instruments, synthesizers,

464
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,144
all sorts of layers and have everything
line up so you don't have to manually.

465
00:22:34,186 --> 00:22:36,396
Or if you want to. Right. Yeah. To vision.
Well yeah.

466
00:22:36,396 --> 00:22:37,606
I mean like like

467
00:22:37,606 --> 00:22:38,565
like one thing to be really

468
00:22:38,565 --> 00:22:41,735
clear on is like what is latency
that matters and doesn't matter.

469
00:22:41,735 --> 00:22:45,906
So if you're looking at lip lip sync
you can have a little bit of tolerance

470
00:22:45,906 --> 00:22:46,198
there.

471
00:22:46,198 --> 00:22:49,201
20 milliseconds isn't going to make
something look out of sync,

472
00:22:49,659 --> 00:22:52,871
but 20 milliseconds at the right musical
tempo

473
00:22:52,871 --> 00:22:56,416
is the difference
between a good player and a bad player.

474
00:22:57,250 --> 00:22:57,584
Right.

475
00:22:57,584 --> 00:22:59,378
I always used to laugh at these systems

476
00:22:59,378 --> 00:23:02,923
that claim to let you play music
over the internet and when you would.

477
00:23:03,298 --> 00:23:05,842
Oh, go, go companies. Yeah, listen.

478
00:23:05,842 --> 00:23:07,386
Excuse me, but bullshit.

479
00:23:07,386 --> 00:23:11,556
So you read the manual and at some point
they would say things like, you know, once

480
00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:13,850
you get it all hooked up and you've driven
all your drivers

481
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:16,978
down to the lowest latency,
so everything's as unstable as possible,

482
00:23:18,271 --> 00:23:20,232
you will get used to playing with latency

483
00:23:20,232 --> 00:23:23,318
and it works better with slower
tempo music.

484
00:23:24,152 --> 00:23:24,861
Like it works.

485
00:23:24,861 --> 00:23:26,780
Better
if the other band members are in your.

486
00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:29,241
Yeah, yeah, it works. Better
if no one has a sense of.

487
00:23:29,241 --> 00:23:31,159
Time. What about Ringo Starr?

488
00:23:31,159 --> 00:23:31,410
Right?

489
00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:35,038
Ringo Starr's in-built latency gave him
a name is one of the world's

490
00:23:35,038 --> 00:23:37,874
greatest drummers because he's naturally,
let's call it feel.

491
00:23:37,874 --> 00:23:40,419
Yeah. And his grandmother
made him learn to get right.

492
00:23:40,419 --> 00:23:43,422
But it took him
longer to get to the snare drum

493
00:23:43,505 --> 00:23:45,465
because of the way
he learned to play the drums,

494
00:23:45,465 --> 00:23:47,884
and that gave him that natural
swing that everyone goes, oh,

495
00:23:47,884 --> 00:23:50,595
George of stuff
like Ringo is a fucking genius.

496
00:23:50,595 --> 00:23:53,265
Yeah, yeah, no,
but it was like it was just. A but.

497
00:23:53,265 --> 00:23:55,517
Inbuilt latency that he wasn't.

498
00:23:55,517 --> 00:23:57,811
But here's another point of latency.

499
00:23:57,811 --> 00:24:00,105
Why do orchestras have conductors?

500
00:24:01,106 --> 00:24:02,274
Because

501
00:24:02,274 --> 00:24:04,901
again, at the right tempo,
the amount of time it takes

502
00:24:04,901 --> 00:24:09,072
for the double basses
on one side of the orchestra to hear

503
00:24:09,072 --> 00:24:12,075
and see what the percussionist is doing on
the other side of the orchestra

504
00:24:12,534 --> 00:24:15,162
is a musical time value.

505
00:24:15,162 --> 00:24:17,456
It might be a 64th note,

506
00:24:17,456 --> 00:24:21,084
but it's their speed of light conductor
waving their hands.

507
00:24:21,418 --> 00:24:24,880
Now you can get everyone to play in sync,
but you know it's true.

508
00:24:24,921 --> 00:24:27,549
Two people
sitting on either end of a football field

509
00:24:27,549 --> 00:24:30,802
at the speed of sound
cannot play in sync with each other.

510
00:24:30,802 --> 00:24:33,555
Yeah. It's impossible.
Yeah, yeah, I remember that. We did that.

511
00:24:33,555 --> 00:24:36,308
We did that, experiment at school.
We we took a start.

512
00:24:36,308 --> 00:24:38,059
Has gone up to one of the ovals at school.

513
00:24:38,059 --> 00:24:39,686
And, you know, we all stood down one end

514
00:24:39,686 --> 00:24:42,230
and the teacher was down
the other end with the started down.

515
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:44,733
And you saw that you saw the smoke
before you heard the sound.

516
00:24:44,733 --> 00:24:47,360
Yeah. Well,
that's sort of. Exactly where I saw it.

517
00:24:48,487 --> 00:24:49,571
I don't like to say Pink Floyd.

518
00:24:49,571 --> 00:24:53,408
I saw Dave Gilmore play in Soldier
Field here in Chicago,

519
00:24:53,408 --> 00:24:56,703
and he played money,
and he had the whole thing out in quad.

520
00:24:56,703 --> 00:24:59,831
So doing church, bom bom bom bom,

521
00:25:00,123 --> 00:25:02,959
and each
beat would go to a different speaker.

522
00:25:02,959 --> 00:25:06,421
Except I was about 20ft from one speaker

523
00:25:06,421 --> 00:25:09,966
and about a 1500 feet
from another speaker.

524
00:25:10,383 --> 00:25:15,597
So that whole thing sounded like boom,
chicka bom bom bom bom boom chicka boom.

525
00:25:15,597 --> 00:25:15,889
Yeah.

526
00:25:15,889 --> 00:25:19,351
What if you want a good lesson in latency,
sit down with one of the guys that mics

527
00:25:19,351 --> 00:25:24,397
those stadium events because like, you're
dealing with that day in and day out.

528
00:25:24,439 --> 00:25:25,690
Yeah, absolutely.

529
00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:27,400
I actually had a totally different venue.

530
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,655
I watched a geeky video from this
great podcast called 20,000Hz.

531
00:25:33,073 --> 00:25:34,908
They really it's a great show, by the way.

532
00:25:34,908 --> 00:25:35,992
Free audio people.

533
00:25:35,992 --> 00:25:37,410
Check out 20,000Hz.

534
00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:39,955
And the gentleman,
the gentleman, the host.

535
00:25:39,955 --> 00:25:42,165
The show did.
It's doing a video series now.

536
00:25:42,165 --> 00:25:45,335
And he walked the Disney property.

537
00:25:45,335 --> 00:25:46,711
Disneyland.

538
00:25:46,711 --> 00:25:50,340
And the guy he was that took him on
the tour is an expert

539
00:25:50,340 --> 00:25:53,593
on everything Disney technology, you know,

540
00:25:54,052 --> 00:25:57,597
and he shows the guy where
all the hidden speakers are on the mall.

541
00:25:57,597 --> 00:26:01,268
You know, as you walk down Main Street
where the speakers are located,

542
00:26:01,268 --> 00:26:05,897
where the control, you know, control
towers are, where the audio mixer sitting.

543
00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:07,482
But what was really cool,

544
00:26:07,482 --> 00:26:10,694
what's relevant to the conversation,
is talking about how they are masters

545
00:26:10,694 --> 00:26:15,991
at controlling the delays of sound
between systems, so that anywhere you are,

546
00:26:16,032 --> 00:26:20,078
you never hear an overlapping echo
from another zone.

547
00:26:20,412 --> 00:26:21,496
Well, yes.

548
00:26:21,496 --> 00:26:25,166
Even to the point when they have parades,
their old Electric Light parade,

549
00:26:25,166 --> 00:26:29,296
which is so famous and fun, you know,
they had the speakers on the parade car.

550
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:30,463
But nowadays

551
00:26:30,463 --> 00:26:34,134
the technology, the system sounds,
the sound is so much more sophisticated.

552
00:26:34,426 --> 00:26:37,387
So these speakers
all the way down the entire parade route,

553
00:26:37,554 --> 00:26:40,557
and there's beacons and every single float

554
00:26:40,932 --> 00:26:43,727
telling the system where the float is,

555
00:26:43,727 --> 00:26:47,105
so it knows where the music for that float
should be playing.

556
00:26:47,105 --> 00:26:49,858
And and what? See,
you know why it should be said to.

557
00:26:49,858 --> 00:26:52,444
And so as the thing travels down,
that's so cool.

558
00:26:52,444 --> 00:26:55,071
No matter where you are,
you're hearing the music for that float.

559
00:26:55,071 --> 00:26:59,034
But it's coming from,
you know, fixed speaker locations

560
00:26:59,618 --> 00:27:03,079
and a lot of the speakers are hidden,
but now they have speaker towers up

561
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:06,333
because you can only hide so many speakers
nowadays.

562
00:27:06,333 --> 00:27:09,044
They and they always
put them by the trees.

563
00:27:09,044 --> 00:27:12,547
So there'll be a nice tree
and then next to it, a big speaker tower.

564
00:27:12,547 --> 00:27:15,467
But it's kind of disguised,
you don't really know.

565
00:27:15,467 --> 00:27:17,010
Looks like a. Business or something.

566
00:27:17,010 --> 00:27:17,260
Yeah.

567
00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:20,764
Say what you will about Disney,
but they're geniuses at heart.

568
00:27:20,764 --> 00:27:23,350
Are you sure? I mean, just incredible.

569
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:27,270
You know, the audio on and tronic,
all that stuff is just next level.

570
00:27:27,270 --> 00:27:29,439
But just talking about latency.

571
00:27:29,439 --> 00:27:33,276
It's the most when you really twist
your head around what's going on.

572
00:27:33,276 --> 00:27:36,905
And what's so remarkable
is they do it so well.

573
00:27:37,155 --> 00:27:38,865
And we all know this about sound, right?

574
00:27:38,865 --> 00:27:40,158
You only know it's bad.

575
00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:44,204
You only
notice audio when it's fucking bad, right?

576
00:27:44,204 --> 00:27:47,332
It's the most like unsung hero of tech.

577
00:27:47,332 --> 00:27:52,504
Because when it's good I mean,
unless you're somewhat of a enthusiast,

578
00:27:52,504 --> 00:27:56,299
I'm like, oh, this sounds great, but
most of the time you don't say anything.

579
00:27:56,341 --> 00:27:58,551
But when it's
when it's. Bad, you're hiding. It.

580
00:27:58,551 --> 00:27:59,469
You hate it.

581
00:27:59,469 --> 00:28:02,472
So I think George Lucas line
sound is 50% of the picture.

582
00:28:03,014 --> 00:28:03,598
Yeah.

583
00:28:03,598 --> 00:28:04,724
Yeah yeah yeah.

584
00:28:04,724 --> 00:28:08,353
Or video
without sound is just surveillance. Oh.

585
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:08,937
Yeah.

586
00:28:08,937 --> 00:28:10,146
Yeah, I like that.

587
00:28:10,146 --> 00:28:13,066
Yeah,
I like that. Talk about video and latency.

588
00:28:13,066 --> 00:28:14,984
Years and years and years ago,

589
00:28:14,984 --> 00:28:17,987
I used to do a TV show
which was live on a Friday night,

590
00:28:17,987 --> 00:28:22,158
the music show,
and it was before, Hi-Fi television.

591
00:28:22,826 --> 00:28:26,413
So the big thing was
you had an FM radio station, and you did

592
00:28:26,413 --> 00:28:28,415
a thing called a simulcast

593
00:28:28,415 --> 00:28:33,336
for anyone under 4515, somebody would have
no idea what I'm doing.

594
00:28:33,336 --> 00:28:37,799
But anyway, so you had the audio
coming out of your Hi-Fi speakers

595
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,177
and the pictures on your television,
so I should have the show.

596
00:28:41,177 --> 00:28:44,180
But the problem was
because we had to rely on

597
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:47,434
the control room
back at the TV network to play the videos.

598
00:28:48,059 --> 00:28:51,438
So I had on my chair under the right,
a button.

599
00:28:52,147 --> 00:28:55,024
But I had to work on, I think it was a

600
00:28:55,024 --> 00:28:58,027
2 or 3 second roll from memory.

601
00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,448
So when I'm doing my spiel,
I had to work out,

602
00:29:01,448 --> 00:29:04,826
you know, backwards 2
or 3 seconds before I finished

603
00:29:05,493 --> 00:29:08,955
so I could press the button, which alerted
the guys in the control room to rotate

604
00:29:08,997 --> 00:29:11,499
at a time. The rotate,
because in a three second roll.

605
00:29:11,499 --> 00:29:14,043
No way. They roll in and then.

606
00:29:14,043 --> 00:29:17,297
It's like the engine room in the ship,
you know, you push the throttle forward

607
00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:20,759
and then the downstairs,
the light comes on full steam, you.

608
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:22,927
Know, and then you'd fire up this I used.

609
00:29:22,927 --> 00:29:23,887
To have to deal with,

610
00:29:23,887 --> 00:29:27,640
with the first version of Source Live,
like back in 2014,

611
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,227
the latency to get a broadcast
that wasn't peer to peer,

612
00:29:32,771 --> 00:29:34,314
it would take like three seconds.

613
00:29:34,314 --> 00:29:36,941
So I'd talk to my clients and say,
okay, well,

614
00:29:36,941 --> 00:29:38,359
here's that thing that you asked for.

615
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:42,405
It's, you know, like, I lower the audio,
I lower the music, I raise that

616
00:29:42,405 --> 00:29:43,448
I got rid of that pop.

617
00:29:43,448 --> 00:29:46,868
I hit play there, that play button is
I just slam the button

618
00:29:47,202 --> 00:29:49,746
and say a few more things
and then it would play.

619
00:29:49,746 --> 00:29:52,582
So hopefully when I said, here
it is, it would start.

620
00:29:52,582 --> 00:29:56,002
But I really had hit play like a second
and a half or two seconds earlier,

621
00:29:56,419 --> 00:29:57,045
trying to make it.

622
00:29:57,045 --> 00:29:59,714
Seem like it's like my Subaru
trying to pass a car on the freeway with.

623
00:29:59,714 --> 00:30:02,383
This.

624
00:30:02,383 --> 00:30:04,302
I'm like, I think I'm going to pass
this guy in a minute.

625
00:30:04,302 --> 00:30:06,304
I'll slam the throttle.

626
00:30:06,304 --> 00:30:09,265
For the 1980s turbo car.

627
00:30:09,307 --> 00:30:10,391
Well, you hit the throttle.

628
00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:12,018
That's right.

629
00:30:12,018 --> 00:30:12,477
At turbo.

630
00:30:12,477 --> 00:30:14,229
Lag. Yeah, they should call it
turbo latency.

631
00:30:14,229 --> 00:30:15,814
Yeah.

632
00:30:15,814 --> 00:30:16,356
It wasn't.

633
00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:19,025
It was a turbo lag, wasn't it?
That's what they call it.

634
00:30:19,025 --> 00:30:19,692
Yeah. Turbo.

635
00:30:19,692 --> 00:30:20,068
Yeah, yeah.

636
00:30:20,068 --> 00:30:23,071
I tell you what, this does discussion
does shine a really good light on it.

637
00:30:23,238 --> 00:30:27,325
1996 or 97

638
00:30:27,325 --> 00:30:31,287
would have been I was still at triple M
and we did a triple cast right?

639
00:30:31,454 --> 00:30:33,206
Yeah, I remember the triple cast.

640
00:30:33,206 --> 00:30:36,626
There was an Australian band called
Boom Crash Opera who was still around.

641
00:30:36,626 --> 00:30:37,752
Now they're actually touring at them.

642
00:30:37,752 --> 00:30:38,711
I remember them right.

643
00:30:38,711 --> 00:30:43,508
Well, we had, a TV show, a national
TV show called hey, Hey, It's Saturday,

644
00:30:43,508 --> 00:30:46,678
which was on it's Saturday night,
and it was like a national icon.

645
00:30:47,011 --> 00:30:48,179
So we got boom.

646
00:30:48,179 --> 00:30:51,432
So the triple M network
lined up with, hey, hey, it's Saturday,

647
00:30:51,432 --> 00:30:52,433
and we did a triple cast.

648
00:30:52,433 --> 00:30:56,437
We had a band member
in each state, each capital city.

649
00:30:56,437 --> 00:31:00,483
So I think Dale rider was a triple
M in Sydney with me.

650
00:31:00,775 --> 00:31:03,611
And there was the guitarist in Adelaide,
the drummer was somewhere,

651
00:31:03,611 --> 00:31:04,946
blah blah blah blah blah.

652
00:31:04,946 --> 00:31:09,868
And it was when the internet
was first starting up and they played live

653
00:31:10,410 --> 00:31:15,248
on TV, on triple M and on the internet,
so you could tune in and listen to them

654
00:31:15,248 --> 00:31:17,917
playing on the internet,
and they were all in a different state.

655
00:31:17,917 --> 00:31:20,920
So we're talking back then

656
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,631
dial up connections, all that rubbish.

657
00:31:23,631 --> 00:31:24,757
Wait wait wait wait wait.

658
00:31:24,757 --> 00:31:27,218
The musicians were in three
different positions.

659
00:31:27,218 --> 00:31:30,138
Were all those band members 4 or 5 in boom
fresh?

660
00:31:30,138 --> 00:31:32,974
Five? Oh, pleasant had gone by then,
so I would have been four. I think.

661
00:31:34,225 --> 00:31:36,311
I suppose it might be.

662
00:31:36,311 --> 00:31:38,855
I'll tell you what it's on,
but you can watch it.

663
00:31:38,855 --> 00:31:41,858
It's on YouTube if you want to go
and watch it, I'll stick the link.

664
00:31:42,108 --> 00:31:44,861
They had to have been playing to a click
that was synchronized

665
00:31:44,861 --> 00:31:47,655
with the central point.
There's no effing way.

666
00:31:47,655 --> 00:31:50,825
Don't forget they were listening to the TV
feed to hear each other.

667
00:31:50,825 --> 00:31:54,203
They weren't listening to each other
across the internet, but it was correct.

668
00:31:54,203 --> 00:31:55,538
They're all listen is something that has.

669
00:31:55,538 --> 00:31:57,957
It was on all sides, right? Right,
I tell you.

670
00:31:57,957 --> 00:32:01,002
Broadcast,
terrestrial terrestrial broadcast.

671
00:32:01,002 --> 00:32:02,253
But still I mean, you know.

672
00:32:02,253 --> 00:32:05,048
Yeah. Back then yeah it was a big thing.

673
00:32:05,048 --> 00:32:06,758
That's pretty cool. Well, you were there.

674
00:32:06,758 --> 00:32:07,425
You were there. Rob.

675
00:32:07,425 --> 00:32:10,595
Oh. When,
guild off used to come and do drive

676
00:32:11,596 --> 00:32:13,723
in the.

677
00:32:13,723 --> 00:32:14,599
Yeah.

678
00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:16,893
And he,
I got a call from a record company.

679
00:32:16,893 --> 00:32:19,062
Go, girl, I was talking to her,
and I said, what are you up to?

680
00:32:19,062 --> 00:32:23,650
Some at lunch with Lee Amalia from
Hothouse Flowers went, oh, he's Irish.

681
00:32:24,567 --> 00:32:27,570
Why don't you come in
and you can get on there with Geldof?

682
00:32:28,154 --> 00:32:30,323
So he did,
and then they end up doing a song member.

683
00:32:30,323 --> 00:32:31,783
They did do the live song,

684
00:32:31,783 --> 00:32:34,786
which was a Tim Buckley song,
and I wish I could remember what it was,

685
00:32:34,869 --> 00:32:38,081
but Liam Amalia played keyboards and sang.

686
00:32:38,831 --> 00:32:41,376
Charlie Musselwhite was on harmonica.

687
00:32:41,376 --> 00:32:44,379
Can't remember than a guy's name
who's playing guitar.

688
00:32:45,004 --> 00:32:46,756
And I think Geldof
sort of wandered it out,

689
00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:50,176
playing the bow role
or some weird shit, but, But

690
00:32:50,176 --> 00:32:53,388
Liam, Amalia, the headphones didn't work
and we were going live to hear.

691
00:32:54,514 --> 00:32:55,515
So he played the

692
00:32:55,515 --> 00:32:58,851
keyboards, he couldn't hear the keyboard,
and he sang.

693
00:32:59,102 --> 00:32:59,769
Oh, wow.

694
00:32:59,769 --> 00:33:01,062
But he played the keyboard.

695
00:33:01,062 --> 00:33:04,190
Didn't miss a note
without even hearing it. Yes.

696
00:33:04,691 --> 00:33:06,526
That's somebody that was amazing, Mr.

697
00:33:06,526 --> 00:33:08,236
Beethoven. Some of those guys.

698
00:33:08,236 --> 00:33:08,403
Yeah.

699
00:33:08,403 --> 00:33:11,114
I mean, my let
I have one last latency story too,

700
00:33:11,114 --> 00:33:15,368
because it ties into radio again
when I did the Eagles football,

701
00:33:15,910 --> 00:33:19,455
broadcasts, we were simulcasting
because it was television,

702
00:33:19,998 --> 00:33:22,041
but we were on the radio. Right.

703
00:33:22,041 --> 00:33:26,254
And it's not technically a simulcast,
but the fans in Philly

704
00:33:26,254 --> 00:33:30,258
and in the Philadelphia area
wanted to hear our announcer, you know.

705
00:33:30,299 --> 00:33:32,969
Yeah, they want to hear the hometown
announcer. Right.

706
00:33:32,969 --> 00:33:36,556
So it's very popular to turn down
the television and turn up the radio.

707
00:33:36,556 --> 00:33:39,517
Right. Talk about sync problems.

708
00:33:39,517 --> 00:33:42,520
What often happened was
we were ahead of the broadcast.

709
00:33:43,229 --> 00:33:44,772
Yeah. Right, right.

710
00:33:44,772 --> 00:33:49,110
And so you would get calls from the fans
calling in the station saying.

711
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,446
You guys are ahead of the TV, man.

712
00:33:51,446 --> 00:33:53,948
And then we'd have to call in
to engineering.

713
00:33:53,948 --> 00:33:56,159
And they had a delay control,
you know, back at the.

714
00:33:56,159 --> 00:34:01,122
Yeah, at the station
they'd add a second 2 or 3 of delay

715
00:34:01,539 --> 00:34:04,667
so that when you lose to the game
because you see when you hear male go,

716
00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:07,420
it's just, you know, fumble
and the guy's still running

717
00:34:07,420 --> 00:34:10,006
and they're like, it's
going to be a fumble. Oh shit.

718
00:34:10,006 --> 00:34:12,341
Oh you bet. Yeah.

719
00:34:13,468 --> 00:34:13,760
Yeah.

720
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,179
So you would have to deal with that,
you know. And that.

721
00:34:16,179 --> 00:34:16,971
Well if. You watch it.

722
00:34:16,971 --> 00:34:20,308
If you watch film coverage,
you'll see that all the time

723
00:34:20,308 --> 00:34:24,395
because they'll, they'll cross the
like this the garage of whatever team.

724
00:34:24,395 --> 00:34:26,230
And you see a screen in the background

725
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:29,317
which is showing something
you saw about four seconds ago.

726
00:34:29,984 --> 00:34:33,488
And then it will turn to the guys in the,
you know, in the in the garage

727
00:34:33,738 --> 00:34:36,365
on the pit lane, two. More places
where latency comes up.

728
00:34:36,365 --> 00:34:40,745
Number one, you buy these in house
like Sony's speakers,

729
00:34:41,579 --> 00:34:43,956
and they are having to synchronize
the delay

730
00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:46,959
throughout your house
so that you walk upstairs and downstairs

731
00:34:47,502 --> 00:34:51,089
and you get somewhat
of a continuous experience

732
00:34:51,547 --> 00:34:55,968
without getting an echoey sound
when you're standing between two zones.

733
00:34:57,386 --> 00:34:57,929
That's one.

734
00:34:57,929 --> 00:35:00,389
And that's very hard to do,
especially because you're dealing

735
00:35:00,389 --> 00:35:03,101
with physical space.

736
00:35:03,101 --> 00:35:05,645
At some point
you cannot actually compensate for this.

737
00:35:05,645 --> 00:35:05,937
You can.

738
00:35:05,937 --> 00:35:07,772
Only one thing to be really clear about.

739
00:35:07,772 --> 00:35:09,482
You can only compensate for latency.

740
00:35:09,482 --> 00:35:14,946
From a point of perspective, and you can
only compensate latency by adding latency.

741
00:35:14,946 --> 00:35:19,492
There's no time travel like people have
latency compensation like. You.

742
00:35:19,492 --> 00:35:20,743
Can't speed it up to.

743
00:35:20,743 --> 00:35:21,702
Time travel yet.

744
00:35:21,702 --> 00:35:24,705
Yeah. You can't you can't go back in time.

745
00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:25,915
So that's one place.

746
00:35:25,915 --> 00:35:28,876
The other thing
that's interesting with latency,

747
00:35:28,876 --> 00:35:32,046
you might remember with landline

748
00:35:32,046 --> 00:35:35,049
phone calls, they were quicker.

749
00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:38,261
And now everyone is so used to latency

750
00:35:38,261 --> 00:35:43,057
on the phone network with cell phones
that the funniest thing

751
00:35:43,057 --> 00:35:46,060
that I've realized, actually,
is that recently I've been on a few phone

752
00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:49,063
calls and Source Connect
beat the phone call.

753
00:35:49,397 --> 00:35:51,149
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

754
00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,067
Which was really interesting.

755
00:35:53,067 --> 00:35:57,488
Well, everyone
now is this culturally used to much higher

756
00:35:57,488 --> 00:36:01,617
latency conversations
than we used to in the 80s with

757
00:36:02,577 --> 00:36:04,662
wired telephones across the whole world.

758
00:36:04,662 --> 00:36:06,414
Except when you were doing.
The you're going. Through these.

759
00:36:06,414 --> 00:36:11,335
I can still remember though, back in
the 70s and 80s, because I'm fucking old.

760
00:36:12,128 --> 00:36:13,921
You know,
you be doing an international call.

761
00:36:13,921 --> 00:36:16,924
It'd be like, how are you?

762
00:36:16,966 --> 00:36:17,925
Are you there? Yeah. Good.

763
00:36:17,925 --> 00:36:19,594
Oh, no. I'm sorry.

764
00:36:19,594 --> 00:36:20,595
And then everyone's talking over

765
00:36:20,595 --> 00:36:22,805
one another and it's costing
loads of money and.

766
00:36:22,805 --> 00:36:24,432
Yeah, yeah.

767
00:36:24,432 --> 00:36:26,225
God, Jesus.
It's like a phone call. Oh, yeah.

768
00:36:26,225 --> 00:36:28,603
I a half hour interview
at a radio station.

769
00:36:28,603 --> 00:36:31,314
It cost the station,
like 200 bucks or something. Yeah, yeah.

770
00:36:31,314 --> 00:36:33,149
I see end lines go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

771
00:36:33,149 --> 00:36:35,735
Fucking. Oh yeah yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

772
00:36:35,735 --> 00:36:38,738
God forbid someone forgot to hang up
the damn ISDN box.

773
00:36:39,405 --> 00:36:43,868
Over the weekend, we we did that
when we were just, testing Source Connect,

774
00:36:43,868 --> 00:36:48,623
and we were doing some latency tests
because aptX for example, is a codec.

775
00:36:48,623 --> 00:36:52,627
We were talking about compression
and decompression, and we used to have

776
00:36:52,627 --> 00:36:56,380
a version of Source Connect that use
the aptX codec or people call it aptX X.

777
00:36:56,839 --> 00:37:00,843
And now aptX is used a lot with Bluetooth
for doing your surround speakers

778
00:37:00,843 --> 00:37:04,222
because it's it most codecs.

779
00:37:04,222 --> 00:37:07,725
A codec is the thing that compresses
the data and makes it less data

780
00:37:07,725 --> 00:37:08,684
to transmit.

781
00:37:08,684 --> 00:37:12,188
Most codecs do this
by figuring out what you can't hear.

782
00:37:12,188 --> 00:37:15,316
Is a human. But aptX didn't use,

783
00:37:16,275 --> 00:37:17,443
perceptual coding.

784
00:37:17,443 --> 00:37:20,738
It used, linear adaptive linear

785
00:37:20,738 --> 00:37:23,783
PCM or something I think had ad, I forget.

786
00:37:23,783 --> 00:37:25,785
But anyways, it was much, much faster.

787
00:37:25,785 --> 00:37:29,622
What would take most codecs around
20 milliseconds to encode decode?

788
00:37:29,956 --> 00:37:33,125
I think aptX could do it
in four milliseconds. Wow.

789
00:37:33,251 --> 00:37:38,589
So we were testing with the aptX ISDN box
and comparing it to Source Connect.

790
00:37:38,589 --> 00:37:40,216
Connect it to California.

791
00:37:40,216 --> 00:37:42,802
We had some pretty good results

792
00:37:42,802 --> 00:37:45,888
and then we just went home
and it was the weekend.

793
00:37:45,930 --> 00:37:46,597
Yeah.

794
00:37:46,597 --> 00:37:49,809
And the aptX system would take
it wouldn't take two ISDN lines.

795
00:37:49,809 --> 00:37:55,189
It would take four because it it couldn't
achieve as much of a compression ratio.

796
00:37:55,189 --> 00:37:56,315
It was much faster.

797
00:37:56,315 --> 00:37:57,358
Who didn't disconnect?

798
00:37:57,358 --> 00:38:00,361
Robert I'm. Innocent.

799
00:38:01,028 --> 00:38:03,614
The box didn't disconnect.

800
00:38:03,614 --> 00:38:06,534
The the line, the,

801
00:38:06,534 --> 00:38:07,034
Oops.

802
00:38:07,034 --> 00:38:09,453
That was an expensive,
that was got to hang.

803
00:38:09,453 --> 00:38:10,162
That was expensive.

804
00:38:10,162 --> 00:38:14,542
That was that was almost $1,000 for that
one weekend.

805
00:38:14,542 --> 00:38:15,042
Yeah.

806
00:38:15,042 --> 00:38:18,045
Yeah, it happened to Miguel for our IP.

807
00:38:18,129 --> 00:38:20,131
They left it open.

808
00:38:20,131 --> 00:38:21,507
Yeah, yeah, nobody hung up.

809
00:38:21,507 --> 00:38:23,050
The suit didn't hang up. Yeah.

810
00:38:23,050 --> 00:38:25,678
And he he was the one that dialed in. Oh.

811
00:38:25,678 --> 00:38:29,140
Which is not really protocol,
but for whatever reason.

812
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,976
Boom. He dialed in. And got he got nailed.

813
00:38:31,976 --> 00:38:34,395
He got the bill. Yeah. And he. Yeah.

814
00:38:34,395 --> 00:38:35,563
My my, when when.

815
00:38:35,563 --> 00:38:39,608
When I first set up the bridge,
I bought a, used my, ISDN box,

816
00:38:39,608 --> 00:38:41,235
and it came from some radio station.

817
00:38:41,235 --> 00:38:43,487
It was set up as a studio,
the transmitter link.

818
00:38:43,487 --> 00:38:46,657
And it had a program in there that said,
if you disconnect,

819
00:38:46,657 --> 00:38:50,202
like dial back
and get that connection back.

820
00:38:50,828 --> 00:38:53,164
And I didn't know that,
I didn't clear the settings out.

821
00:38:53,164 --> 00:38:57,543
And I put my new ISDN numbers in there,
and I did a bridge that dialed out.

822
00:38:57,835 --> 00:39:01,213
And then like bridges over
and I disconnected or whatever.

823
00:39:01,505 --> 00:39:06,427
And I got home and that was like 300 bucks
and that was just for like eight hours

824
00:39:06,427 --> 00:39:10,056
or something or six hours
that the stupid thing dialed back.

825
00:39:10,514 --> 00:39:14,352
The moral to the story is, if you've got
an ISDN box and you forget to hang up,

826
00:39:14,935 --> 00:39:18,356
you need to go to a CVS store right now
because you're going to need it.

827
00:39:23,569 --> 00:39:25,571
And that's the out

828
00:39:25,571 --> 00:39:26,280
literally.

829
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,283
Well, that's the that's is at the end.

830
00:39:30,493 --> 00:39:33,496
Both.

831
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:36,832
Well that was fun.

832
00:39:36,832 --> 00:39:38,167
Is it a works.

833
00:39:38,167 --> 00:39:40,753
In the pro audio suite thanks to

834
00:39:40,753 --> 00:39:44,715
tribal and Austrian audio
recorded using Source Connect,

835
00:39:44,757 --> 00:39:48,052
edited by Andrew Peters and mix by Robert
Good.

836
00:39:48,052 --> 00:39:51,013
Your own audio issues,
just ask Rob Aucoin.

837
00:39:51,013 --> 00:39:53,015
Tech support for George the Tech William.

838
00:39:53,015 --> 00:39:54,225
Don't forget to subscribe

839
00:39:54,225 --> 00:39:58,229
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on our Facebook group to leave a comment,

840
00:39:58,229 --> 00:40:01,982
suggest a topic or just say goodbye,
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841
00:40:02,024 --> 00:40:03,859
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